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Apple Counter-Sues Nokia Over Patents

Posted by ScuttleMonkey on from the fight-fire-with-more-lawyers dept.

adeelarshad82 writes "About two months ago Nokia sued Apple for infringing Nokia patents in its iPhone. The 10 patents in the lawsuit, filed in the US state of Delaware, relate to technologies fundamental for devices using GSM, UMTS and/or local area network (LAN) standards. The patents cover wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption and are infringed by all Apple iPhone models shipped since the iPhone was introduced in 2007. In the latest development to the case, Apple said Friday that it had filed its own suit against Nokia, countering Nokia's claims of patent infringement with its own."

40 of 137 comments (clear)

  1. CEO Battle by Khris · · Score: 5, Funny

    Let's just put the CEO from both companies into a ring and have them fight it out. Whoever wins gets everything including the black turtleneck!

    1. Re:CEO Battle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      If Olli-Pekka Kallasvuo (CEO of Nokia) wins does he really want to eat Steve Job's liver in front of the angry mob? Given Mr Job's medical history that is kind of gross.

    2. Re:CEO Battle by daveime · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yes, and we could present it as a music video for Frankie Goes to Hollywood, entitled "Two Tribes 2009".

    3. Re:CEO Battle by davester666 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Why not? It's WAY newer than the old one, and I'll bet it would taste much better. Also should be much healthier for you (vs eating the old one)...

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
  2. I'm rubber and you're glue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wish they'd all grow up...

    1. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by BeardedChimp · · Score: 4, Funny

      You fight like a dairy farmer!

    2. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      You fight like a dairy farmer!

      How appropriate, you fight like a cow.

    3. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Funny

      How appropriate, you fight like a company that MILKS its customers out of all their money and then spend half of it on pointless patent debates!

    4. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by node+3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's Apple supposed to do? Just eventually lose the patent case and pay up? The MAD patent defense is considered one of the "necessary evils" of the tech world.

      When someone punches you, you punch back. Even if your principal is one of those idiots who, instead of trying to find out who thew the first punch, or who provoked who, just suspends both students.

    5. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by CityZen · · Score: 5, Insightful

      > When someone punches you, you punch back.

      I think you're kind of missing the point. We shouldn't be behaving like cave-men in the first place.

      True, the corporate environment that all companies currently exist in tends to encourage this behavior. But the nature of this corporate environment is hurting everyone (except the lawyers), so how long will it be before we can all evolve and pursue better things?

      Reminds me of an anecdote concerning the game Mule. I played this game with my brothers, and we always competed against each other. When I mentioned the game to a friend of mine, she said "That's a great game. What was the richest your colony ever got?" I responded with some score I remembered at the time. She said something to the effect of "Why so low? We usually got 10x that!" It had not even occurred to me that one might try to play the game cooperatively, thus benefiting the colony as a whole, rather than the individual player.

      Somehow, mankind as a whole needs to make a similar observation.

    6. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by rtfa-troll · · Score: 2, Insightful
      Apple is not doing this "because someone sued them". Apple made it clear that they were out to block Nokia from touch screen phones:

      "We are watching the landscape," Cook told financial analysts. "We like competition, as long as they don't rip off our IP, and if they do, we're going to go after anybody that does."

      (see here)

      Apple has been building up for a patent war and so Nokia has no choice other than to strike before their N900 phones make them vulnerable. Remember Apple's lawsuit happy history was what caused the League for Programming Freedom. I guess the fact that so many seem to believe that Nokia is the agressor here (remember, they've been trying to Negotiate for years before this suit came out) really does show that Apple can distort reality.

      --
      =~ s,(.*),<sarcasm>$1</sarcasm>,g if any_point_you_wish();
    7. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Lighten up Francis. This type of patent 'show' is common when these types of lawsuits happen. They basically give each company a good bargaining chip, and then they take it offline and settle out of court. This is about as 'by the book' as it gets.

    8. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by node+3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple is not doing this "because someone sued them". Apple made it clear that they were out to block Nokia from touch screen phones:

      Nonsense. Nokia *has* touch screen phones. Apple did not sue them.

      Apple has been building up for a patent war

      Defensively, as evidenced by the fact that they did not sue first.

      Nokia has no choice other than to strike before their N900 phones make them vulnerable.

      That doesn't make any sense. How does initiating a suit about completely different technologies change anything with regards to touch screen patents? Nokia did not stave off a suit by their preemptive strike. In fact, they *brought it about*.

      Remember Apple's lawsuit happy history was what caused the League for Programming Freedom.

      Uh, that's a suit from twenty years ago, and one in which their partner (Microsoft) took proprietary knowledge from Apple to create a copy of their prized OS. This wasn't some sort of patent-troll style suit.

      I guess the fact that so many seem to believe that Nokia is the agressor here

      Because *they are*. They struck first. How is that so difficult?

      (remember, they've been trying to Negotiate for years before this suit came out)

      So, again, Nokia went after Apple first?

      really does show that Apple can distort reality.

      Those clever Apple folks! They can distort reality so completely that it wraps completely around on itself to where it started. Nokia struck first. Apple has been able to twist things so thoroughly that it even *looks* like Nokia struck first. Astounding!

    9. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by jcr · · Score: 4, Informative

      You mean the lawsuit that Microsoft won, by proving that their product was built differently from Apple's and did not duplicate or resemble any Apple code?

      Your memory is a bit fuzzy there. Microsoft won that suit because the license Sculley gave them, which was supposed to permit them to use Apple's IP for products that Microsoft shipped on the Mac was poorly worded, and didn't restrict them from using Apple's IP anywhere else.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    10. Re:I'm rubber and you're glue... by rochrist · · Score: 4, Informative

      You mean the lawsuit that Microsoft won, by proving that their product was built differently from Apple's and did not duplicate or resemble any Apple code? It is widely known that Apple and Microsoft both borrowed their windowing OS concepts from Xerox.

      Uh, no. Apple /purchased/ what they got from Xerox with stock. It's kind of time this urban myth died.

  3. Just a small part by MikeMacK · · Score: 3, Insightful
    "The patents Apple has allegedly infringed cover wireless data, speech coding, security and encryption"

    Uhhh...so like the whole frickin' thing...

    1. Re:Just a small part by jpmorgan · · Score: 5, Informative

      Not really. Apple has only been in the cell phone business for a few years... Nokia is a granddaddy. If you look at the patents Apple is saying that Nokia is infringing, they're comparatively minor. Let's look at the patents...

      No. 5,555,369: Method of creating packages for a pointer-based computer system
      No. 6,239,795 B1: Pattern and color abstraction in a graphical user interface
      No. 5,315,703: Object-oriented notification framework system
      No. 6,189,034 B1: Method and apparatus for dynamic launching of a teleconferencing application upon receipt of a call
      No. 7,469,381, B2: List scrolling and document translation, scaling, and rotation on a touch-screen display
      No. RE 39, 486 E: Extensible, replaceable network component system
      No. 5,455,854: Object-oriented telephony system
      No. 5, 379,431: Boot framework architecture for dynamic staged initial program load
      No. 5,634,074 : Serial I/O device identifies itself to a computer through a serial interface during power on reset then it is being configured by the computer
      No. 5,915,131 : Method and apparatus for handling I/O requests utilizing separate programming interfaces to access separate I/O services
      No. 7,383,453 B2: Conserving power by reducing voltage supplied to an instruction-processing portion of a processor
      No. 5,848,105: GMSK signal processors for improved communications capacity and quality
      No. 6,343,263 B1 : Real-time signal processing system for serially transmitted data

      Mostly we're talking fluffy software patents. The last few are potentially meaty, but given how little time Apple has been in this business, and how recent these were filed and granted, they're probably pretty specific (although I don't have the time to pick through the actual claims). Worst case scenario for Nokia is probably, they pull their smartphones from the US market for 6 months while they work around them. And the US smartphone market is a minor part of Nokia's business.

      But Nokia... Nokia has patents on just about every wireless technology known to man. Worst case scenario for Apple is they can cancel the iPhone and put an ethernet jack in the next MacBook Air.

  4. AM I reading the subtext right? by Teese · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple is complaining that Nokia isn't offering the Standards based cell phones on Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory basis? Isn't Nokia required to do that as part of submitting those patents as part of the GSM standard. It stated that in the lawsuit that nokia wanted a patent cross-license agreement with apple for the rights to the GSM patents. That's not reasonable and nondiscriminatory.

    --
    "I'm a Genius!"*


    *Not an actual Genius
    1. Re:AM I reading the subtext right? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I would agree. But, again, the idea that Nokia can hold up the patents that Apple needs in order for Nokia to get the patents that they want is certainly not "Non-discriminatory."

      To go with my previous example, if Nokia says, "it's $0.25 per cellphone, but we'll cut it if you cross-license these patents," that's one thing. But to say "You must cross-license these patents" is something else.

      This gives Nokia an incredible advantage over Google, RIM, Microsoft, and anyone else who makes a cellphone operating system. Nokia makes a cellphone operating system but they also have patents which Google, RIM, and Microsoft—Nokia's competitors—must license in order to work with GSM networks. So you have to license technology from your competition if you want to work on GSM networks.

      Nokia is definitely taking advantage of the situation by trying to use these must have patents in cellular telephony in order to improve their own cellphone operating system which is used on the phones that they sell.

      That's definitely non-discriminatory.

    2. Re:AM I reading the subtext right? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'd agree, except for the fact that these patents are part of a standard which Nokia has agreed to license in a "Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory" fashion. They can't suddenly decide to charge Apple more because Apple competes with them. That is discriminatory.

      Apple is not saying that they shouldn't have to pay to use those patents. They are saying that they shouldn't have to pay more or give up valuable IP to use those patents since other companies don't have to pay as much or give up IP. Making Apple do that is discriminatory.

      There is no double standard. If Nokia had not agreed to license the patents in a "Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory" fashion, I'd agree with you. Of course, their patents probably would not have been used.

    3. Re:AM I reading the subtext right? by R3d+M3rcury · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Bastards! How dare they say that they will license in a "Reasonable and Nondiscriminatory" fashion and then turn around and charge their chief competitor more than anyone else?

      Suppose I release something GPL. Then I decide not to and, furthermore, sue all the people who downloaded and used it under the GPL. Obviously, that would be a breach of contract.

      So if Nokia agreed to be non-discriminatory, that means they can't charge Apple more than they would charge anyone else. That means they can't go after Apple's IP unless they go after everyone else's. Doing otherwise is "Discriminatory."

      Fun example: Microsoft creates the Open XML Document format and agrees to charge a "Reasonable or Non-discriminatory" amount for it's use. They then charge Linux projects more than anyone else to use it because Microsoft wants to hurt Linux Office projects.

      We'd be screaming bloody murder--and rightly so.

  5. Resolution by whisper_jeff · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Expect both cases to be dropped and an announcement of mutual licensing between the two companies in ... about three or four weeks.

    A classic example of patents being used defensively by Apple to counter Nokia's offensive use.

    1. Re:Resolution by Vintermann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Apple's multitouch patent is ridiculous, and it's one I don't think they want to license. While Nokia is doing the suing, I think this is a reasonable pre-emptive strike. That patent strangles smartphone competition.

      --
      xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
    2. Re:Resolution by Ma8thew · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not likely. The reason Nokia is suing Apple is that Apple refused to mutual licensing. Apple presumably wanted to pay the same licensing fee all other mobile manufacturers do, but Nokia wanted to swap their patents for Apple's.

    3. Re:Resolution by jipn4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A classic example of patents being used defensively by Apple to counter Nokia's offensive use.

      You make it sound as if Apple is the aggrieved party here. But Apple has been pilfering other people's ideas and products liberally in order to create the iPhone. Apple's contributions have largely been in excellent packaging, but they have innovated fairly little. Nokia, on the other hand, has produce innovative phones with bad user interfaces. I think the "offender" here really is Apple, and Nokia deserves a cut of Apple's financial success, given the relative contributions of the two companies to the mobile phone market.

    4. Re:Resolution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apple's contributions have largely been in excellent packaging, but they have innovated fairly little. Nokia, on the other hand, has produce innovative phones with bad user interfaces.

      So someone who has put in the work to do proper human interface design, market analysis and HCI should just roll over and show their collective jugular to a competitor that can't do any of these things, in fact, hasn't been able to do any of thes things despite a huge headstart, and is now looking like an also-ran in the market?

      What's next, should we feel sorry for Windows Mobile?

      I think a lot of people fail to understand exactly how innovative Apple really is, primarily because their own concept of innovation is limited.

  6. the lawyers always win by mister_playboy · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There will still be a winner in this case... the lawyers.

    --
    Do what thou wilt shall be the whole of the Law ::: Love is the law, love under will
  7. Re:Nuke Delaware from orbit by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    A lot of banks are headquartered there. Wait... good idea.

  8. Full text of Apple countersuit + patents by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Digital Daily has posted a list of the patents at issue here and the full text of Apple's counterclaims -- which are pretty brutal. "Excerpt: In 2007, Apple introduced the iPhone a ground-breaking device that allowed users access to the functionality of the already popular iPod on a revolutionary mobile phone and Internet device. The iPhone is a converged device that allows users to access and ever expanding set of software features to take and send pictures, play music, play games do research, serve as a GPS device and much more.The iPhone platform has caused a revolutionary change in the mobile phone category.

    In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces. As a result, Nokia has rapidly lost share in the market for high-end mobile phones. Nokia has admitted that, as a result of the iPhone launch, “the market changed suddenly and [Nokia was] not fast enough changing with it.

    In response, Nokia chose to copy the iPhone, especially its enormously popular and patented design and user interface."

    1. Re:Full text of Apple countersuit + patents by Red+Flayer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Meh. ATD is historically very fanboyish on Apple.

      I don't trust that site for unbiased analysis of anything Apple, though to be fair -- at times his product reviews have been honest.

      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
  9. Nokia sues Apple for infringing technology patents by Colin+Smith · · Score: 5, Funny

    And Apple sues Nokia for what? The process for creating black shiny things?

     

    --
    Deleted
  10. It IS crazy! by NoYob · · Score: 5, Funny

    Here's a crazy idea: in-house lawyers.

    Do you know how hard it is to potty train a lawyer?! It's not like a dog or better a cat that makes a bee line for the litter box. Nooooooo!

    Lawyers need a big office if they don't have one, they'll shit all over everything. They need an expensive car or they'll pee over everything. And as for food! Oh God!

    Just gimme a cat.

    --
    It's NOT me! It's the meds! I'm on 1000mg of Fukitol.
    1. Re:It IS crazy! by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Funny

      Not so; Pasteur was not entirely correct. Lawyers spontaneously generate out of the muck.

      M. Pasteur was concerned about the origin of lifeforms. Not lawyers.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  11. I wish them good luck by Vintermann · · Score: 2, Insightful

    ... and hope they hurt each other as much as possible.

    --
    xkcd is not in the sudoers file. This incident will be reported.
  12. That would mean glorious times ahead for Nokia by sznupi · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's one quite likely reason why Nokia CEO would possibly...destroy most corporate opponents:

    Well into the mid-20th century, academic degrees remained important factors for politicians asking for the electorate's confidence. Likewise, one's military rank in reserves has been a decisive factor on selecting leaders and managers both in the public and the private sector. Even today, most Finnish managers are amongst those who have attained either an NCO (non-commissioned officer) or a reserve officer rank during their conscript tour of duty.

    (emphasis mine, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meritocracy#Grand_Duchy_of_Finland )

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
    1. Re:That would mean glorious times ahead for Nokia by Selfbain · · Score: 3, Funny

      But could he defeat a person who has the ability to warp reality itself?

      --
      Well, it has never been successfully tested.
    2. Re:That would mean glorious times ahead for Nokia by r_jensen11 · · Score: 3, Informative

      That quote is not surprising, considering that military service is compulsory in Finland. It's tantamount to being surprised that there is a strong correlation of people who do well in business performed well in school.

  13. what a bunch of hypocrites by jipn4 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Apple introduced the iPhone a ground-breaking device that allowed users access to the functionality of the already popular iPod on a revolutionary mobile phone and Internet device. [...] In contrast, Nokia made a different business decision and remained focused on traditional mobile wireless handsets with conventional user interfaces.

    Nokia had smartphones and touch screen devices long before the iPhone even existed. Much of the iPhone is basically derived from the Palm Treo, the Danger Hiptop, Symbian, and the ideas of countless small developers and academics. Instead of acknowledging their enormous intellectual debt to all these other companies and developers, Apple is claiming to have done it all themselves.

    The iPhone has been engineered with the usual Apple gimmicks and flair, but technically, it is not a ground-breaking device in any area. But, as is typical for Apple, first the rip everybody off, and then they claim that they are the aggrieved party. They tried the same thing with the GUI and window systems and lost badly. Apple is truly evil.

  14. Re:maybe they should just pay up by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Informative

    Apparently some people get the opposite effect from Jobs' reality distortion field. Let's see here...

    Mach: It's open source. So long as Apple abides by the license (which they do), there is no possible way they can "steal" it.
    Objective-C: Apple is far from the only ones to have an Obj-C language. And the funny thing is that NeXT was the first company to license it, which Apple later purchased. Yep, obtaining a license certainly equates to theft!
    MP3 Players: Are you fucking serious? Apple was far from the first to make an MP3 player. They were simply the most successful. Holy crap, Sony ripped off the inventor of the wax cylinder by making the Walkman!
    Multitouch: Apple purchased Fingerworks, who had developed a number of multitouch technologies and interfaces. Again, buying is stealing?
    The App Store: You can't possibly be fucking serious.
    Song recommendations: See above. You mean they can recommend something based on something else you bought? WOW, they stole that...from the rest of the ENTIRE FUCKING INDUSTRY.
    Phone cameras: Holy. Fucking. Shit. I'm not even going to address this.

    Words cannot describe just how incredibly stupid you really are.

  15. Re:Nokia is making a mockery of all Finns by Atypical+Geek · · Score: 4, Informative

    You do realize that those are Apple's patents, right? Nokia actually holds patents on nearly every wireless technology known to man.