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ID Thief Tries To Get Witnesses Whacked

adeelarshad82 writes "Pavel Valkovich of Sherman Oaks, CA has pleaded guilty to solicitation of murder, admitting that he attempted to hire hit-men to kill witnesses working with Federal authorities in their investigation of Valkovich's ID theft activities and subsequent crimes. According to the Justice Department: '...Valkovich and others had stolen personal identifying information and used that information to transfer funds from victims' bank accounts to PayPal accounts.'"

45 of 168 comments (clear)

  1. What. The. Funk? by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Valkovich will face a statutory maximum of 50 years in prison: 20 years for the murder-for-hire and 30 years for the bank fraud.

    Two things amaze me:

    One, that you can get more jail time for moving 440,000 from one DB column to another than for trying to have someone killed.

    Two, that actual bankers that committed fraud to the tune of trillions were punished by (at most) being handsomely paid off and sentenced to go golfing for the rest of their lives.

    What a strange "justice" system we've created for ourselves.

    --
    If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    1. Re:What. The. Funk? by Opportunist · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He who owns the system makes the rules. Where's the news?

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:What. The. Funk? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's the same all around the world. You steal a few grand and you get the maximum sentence. You steal double digit millions and you get a bonus. That and the fact that you get harsher sentences for crimes involving money and copyright than murder and violence.

    3. Re:What. The. Funk? by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Funny

      Valkovich will face a statutory maximum of 50 years in prison: 20 years for the murder-for-hire and 30 years for the bank fraud

      On further investigation, a new fact has been discovered. When Valkovich was hiring the assassin, he was simultaneously copying his cds to a usb player. The sentence has been changed to death penalty of him, his entire family, and everybody in the same neighborhood with a name starting with a V, or a W.

    4. Re:What. The. Funk? by obarthelemy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      1- It kinda makes sense, though. I'm sure there's a known monetary value for saving one life, either though medical treatment or better safety. The value may vary in rich vs poor countries, but money = lives (and lives = money, sadly).

      2- Indeed. What can we do except witch about it ? Both political parties are equally guilty...

      --
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    5. Re:What. The. Funk? by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It has absolutely nothing to do with how much money you stole. If this guy had stolen 20 billion dollars he'd still be going to jail.

      It all has to do with HOW you steal it and WHAT you call it. Example:
      Typical theft/bank fraud: Jail time
      Experimental accounting strategies and strategic investment and pay-rate schedule (aka bank fraud): Golden parachute and another cushy job

      --
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    6. Re:What. The. Funk? by camperslo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But wonder what's going on inside the guy's head tho, he acts like he would be in an action movie:

      Perhaps some action movies functioned as training and provided role models for this guy.
      Watching too much bad stuff may make it seem more normal, making a line a bit easier to cross.

    7. Re:What. The. Funk? by ArsenneLupin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But wonder what's going on inside the guy's head tho, he acts like he would be in an action movie:

      The answer is in the first comment of this thread:

      20 years for the murder-for-hire and 30 years for the bank fraud.

      ==> he just tried to save 10 years of prison time. Had his plot gone through, there would have been no witness for the fraud, and all they could stick with him would be the murder: 20 years, instead of 30!

      And this is the reason why it is so dangerous to have laws on the book that carry a penalty that is harsher than for murder...

    8. Re:What. The. Funk? by Rogerborg · · Score: 3, Funny

      Didn't Joshua Lincoln bring the laws on stone tablets down from a burning ark on Mount Rushmore? I'm pretty sure that's what I was taught in Civics 101.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    9. Re:What. The. Funk? by brunes69 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The 30 years for fraud is most likely 5 years per sentence * 6 people, or 3 years per sentence * 10 people, etc.

    10. Re:What. The. Funk? by instantkamera · · Score: 5, Insightful
      Logic fail.

      he just tried to save 10 years of prison time. Had his plot gone through, there would have been no witness for the fraud, and all they could stick with him would be the murder: 20 years, instead of 30!

      Had this plot "gone through" he would have actually been charged with something other than "solicitation of murder", the charge carrying a 20 year sentence. Let's assume the murder charge is worse.

      And this is the reason why it is so dangerous to have laws on the book that carry a penalty that is harsher than for murder...

      again, the 20 years ... not for ACTUAL MURDER. Not to mention, Im pretty sure this guy wasn't weighing his jail time options and "settling" for 20 years. I think he wanted to silence the witness(es) and not get caught doing it.

    11. Re:What. The. Funk? by Rufty · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actual murder would get, what, 10 years, tops?

      --
      Red to red, black to black. Switch it on, but stand well back.
    12. Re:What. The. Funk? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yep. Murder is normally a "25 to life" affair. However, in this case it would be first degree murder, since it was most certainly premeditated. That is life with no chance of parole in every US jurisdiction I'm aware of, and makes you eligible for the death penalty in some.

      Murder gets you extremely heavy time. Attempted murder doesn't get you as much. Solicitation of murder, even less. Reason is in each case, things are less severe. In the first, you actually took someone's life. In the second, you tried, but failed, so despite everything else, the person is still alive at least which makes the situation much less severe. In the third, you didn't even try to kill them, you just asked someone else to, someone who didn't do it.

      However let's not pretend like 20 years is a light sentence.

    13. Re:What. The. Funk? by elnyka · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Valkovich will face a statutory maximum of 50 years in prison: 20 years for the murder-for-hire and 30 years for the bank fraud.

      Two things amaze me:

      One, that you can get more jail time for moving 440,000 from one DB column to another than for trying to have someone killed.

      Two, that actual bankers that committed fraud to the tune of trillions were punished by (at most) being handsomely paid off and sentenced to go golfing for the rest of their lives.

      What a strange "justice" system we've created for ourselves.

      One. Laws do not get implemented in pairs. That is, legislators do not sit down and say, "umh, what a nice day, let's punish fraud more severely than attempted murder." Also, federal and state laws do not evolve in parallel either. So it is all conceivable that in a union like the US you'll have punishment discrepancies like that. The only fairness you get is the fairness of a fair trail. It is not strange at all. Legislation can (and might or might not) change those punishment discrepancies (for better or worse.) It's not a frozen thing, and it is not strange at all.

      Two. Actual bankers did not commit fraud. I know what you are trying to say, BUT, the legal term fraud has a very specific meaning. To assign blame, or to accuse, you need to use the appropriate terms of accusation for it to make sense.

    14. Re:What. The. Funk? by djdbass · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...but those 10 years are in a Federal pound-me-in-the-ass prison!!

    15. Re:What. The. Funk? by IndustrialComplex · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think solicitation for murder should have a higher penalty.

      Both are very very bad, however attempted murder could be a crime of passion or intense anger with very little reasoning. While solicitation for murder always indicate premeditation

      I've always been of the same opinion with regard to crimes relating to murder.

      1st Degree: Obviously in this case the most severe
      2nd Degree: I can understand that the 'heat of the moment' can be a mitigating factor.

      However, I believe that the following should receive the EXACT SAME penalty as the above examples.

      Attempted Murder: You should get a lesser sentence simply because you failed to achieve your goal? Your intent was the same. If you were convinced that someone was deathly allergic to peanuts and you hit him in the face with a gallon of peanut butter, only later to find out that it was an allergy to wheat, that doesn't change the fact that you had completely planned to have that person die, and only failed due to your own idiocy.

      Solicitation for Murder: This should carry a higher sentence than 1st degree murder. First, you are contributing to an increase in crime in society more than a simple murder (2 people involved instead of 1) Second, there is a reduced ability to change your mind at the last minute, thus it is more likely that the person would end up being killed. It just seems to me that solicitation for murder is perhaps one of the worst crimes you can possibly commit.

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  2. It wasn't him... by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Funny

    ...his identity must have been stolen!

    --
    You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    1. Re:It wasn't him... by dikdik · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have had my identity stolen twice and both time it was a data breach with a merchant I was dealing with. I find it appalling that it is so easy to get a credit or signup for a loan. How about more responsibility on the bank merchant part? The there credit bureaus should be held responsible for this mess. They are making profit using our data and we end up paying to clean it up or monitor it.

  3. Put the onus on financial institutions by dikdik · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Plain and simple, the only thing that's going to really make a dent in identity theft is to make identities harder to steal, and that means requiring all the banks and credit card companies to jump through more identity verification hoops before they give someone your money or a line of credit in your name.

    Sure, requiring you to go to a licensed notary and have a credit card application notarized might not make it so easy to get credit, but it would also make it harder to get credit in your name.

    The banks and credit card companies could do this, but it's more profitable to let people steal your identity and then just jack up fees and interest rates to cover the losses.

    1. Re:Put the onus on financial institutions by JasterBobaMereel · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How do you prove you are you?

      People have used completely made up identities for years and never been detected

      It is not uncommon for people to have no formal identity, especially people who avoid being in the system

      Many of the cases of identity theft are so frustrating for the victims because they have to continually and repeatedly prove they are who they say they are and have trouble doing so because the identity thief has more and better forms of ID then the real person does....

      --
      Puteulanus fenestra mortis
    2. Re:Put the onus on financial institutions by Thing+1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, this is something that strikes me as weird: a (former) friend borrowed money, even signed a note for it. However, the note wasn't notarized, and my attorney said that I'm SOL. On the other hand, none of the credit card agreements that I've signed were notarized, either, so why do I not get the same legal protections that a bank gets?

      (Note the "former" -- don't lend friends money.)

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    3. Re:Put the onus on financial institutions by maxume · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I shouldn't be required to prove who I am. There should be a simple form that I can file with a bank, protesting their claim that I am responsible for an account; once filed, the bank has the problem; when filed to try to skip out on an actual account, massive fines, maybe jail time.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Put the onus on financial institutions by clone53421 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can lend friends money. Just not money you would mind losing.

      ...or friends you would mind losing.

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  4. surely this plan must eventually succeed by Trepidity · · Score: 2, Funny

    The authorities learned of the murder-for-hire plot, charged him with it and transferred him to a different jail facility, There he approach[ed] yet another individual and proposed that he kill both the original witness and the person Valkovich had attempted to hire for the first hit.

    A minor setback, really--- clearly he's now just in need of a fourth person willing to commit three murders for hire...

    1. Re:surely this plan must eventually succeed by Thanshin · · Score: 3, Funny

      A minor setback, really--- clearly he's now just in need of a fourth person willing to commit three murders for hire...

      That's an example of the classic "putting fires off" mentality.

      A good manager would have sent two assassins for the first target and two more for the assassins themselves. He'd then hire a fifth assassin, of greater skill, to kill whoever was alive at the end of the deals.

      To hire such number of assassins, he'd have probaly created a small HR department. And to recoup from this initial investment, he'd capitalize the already prepared team by subcontracting it to other businesses.

  5. "Copyright theft" and *Identity theft" by erroneus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Those two terms have something in common -- both were trumped up by people with something to hide and would rather misdirect the public about what is going on.

    There is no theft of copyright unless someone somehow convinces the registry office that he is the author and owner of the material. It is "infringement" but that word doesn't sound bad or terrible enough to get people excited.

    And there is no "Identity theft" either... well, there is when someone is actively out there claiming to be someone else while that someone else is thereafter doubted as to who he is. Not sure that actually happens though. What identity theft really is is fraud perpetrated against banks and other institutions who created a system by which a person is identified by numbers that are shared frequently and openly. I hesitate to call them secret numbers since every time you participate in the system, you surrender nearly all of your personal identification numbers. The system that has been created is EXTREMELY weak and easy to game. It is also extremely easy and inexpensive for banks, financial institutions and shops to use in doing business. And just like the "credit score" system created by the same people, it puts the burden on the individuals rather than on the people who created and use the systems to their advantage every day.

    Seriously, what a great system? They collect all of the advantages, and all disadvantages are shifted to individuals!

    Banker says, "no, I was not harmed by this guy who fraudulently stole money from my bank...it was the poor schmuck whose bank account information was used! And I'll tell you something else! I'm holding that poor schmuck responsible for my incompetent system!"

    Shop keeper says, "no, I was not harmed by this guy who fraudulently stole property from my store... it was the poor schmuck whose credit card numbers or credit information was used in making the purchase... and I'll tell you something else, I'm holding the poor schmuck responsible for paying the bill! And if he doesn't, I'll file bad credit reports and in some states, file in court to have a judgement against him too!"

    The weaknesses of the system are clear and obvious. It is also clear and obvious who is being stolen from. By changing the name from fraud to identity theft, they are attempting to make it less clear and obvious who the victim is.

    1. Re:"Copyright theft" and *Identity theft" by clone53421 · · Score: 2, Funny

      1a: the act of stealing; specifically: the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

      1a: deceit, trickery; specifically: intentional perversion of truth in order to induce another to part with something of value or to surrender a legal right b: an act of deceiving or misrepresenting: trick
      2a: a person who is not what he or she pretends to be: impostor; also: one who defrauds: cheat b: one that is not what it seems or is represented to be

      Now, did you have a point to make, or are you just being an asshat?

      --
      Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
  6. i was called to jury duty once by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Interesting

    and the case was a triple murder, drug related, in upper manhattan. this was being tried at the downtown manhattan courthouse

    i was winnowed down to the final 20, almost an alternate juror. what surprised me was all of this personal identifying information was being disclosed, about me and a whole bunch of other people, while the defendant, ostensibly a triple murdering drug dealer, with obvious possible ties to organized crime, was sitting there hearing all of this personally identifying info about people who were going to judge him, and he was even taking notes. they were even asking me and others questions about our siblings and what they did (maybe they were asking that because the defendant killed a sibling? i never heard any further details of the crime after i was weaned out and put back in the snooze room)

    so why is it, in the us court system at least, that the identity of witnesses and jurors is given so much free play with sleaze bag defendants who usually have no problem ordering hits for all sorts of reasons, not least of which the desire to avoid jail time. surely there can be more anonymity, no? i don't understand the status quo

    ps:
    notice to anyone who wants to get off jury duty:
    when they ask you if you would consider other people's opinion when making up your mind, or if you would make up your mind on your own, answer (in my case honestly), that you wouldn't care what other people on the jury thought, that you would make up your mind on your own... booted

    --
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    1. Re:i was called to jury duty once by DamonHD · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And do you have any amusing anecdotes about other civic duties you dodged such as paying taxes or helping injured people by the side of the road?

      Rgds

      Damon

      --
      http://m.earth.org.uk/
    2. Re:i was called to jury duty once by timholman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And do you have any amusing anecdotes about other civic duties you dodged such as paying taxes or helping injured people by the side of the road?

      I'm waiting for the amusing anecdote about how he was wrongly sued by someone, and a jury of bigoted uneducated idiots found in favor for the plaintiff, because all of the intelligent educated jurors dodged jury duty and then smugly posted about it on Slashdot.

      Or maybe the story of how he was wrongfully accused of rape or child abuse, and then a jury of idiots convicted him because all the "smart" people had better things to do with their time than sit in a trial.

      It is always interesting to me how the people who complain the loudest about unjust laws and convictions are so often the ones who can't be bothered to participate in the very system that metes out justice to their fellow citizens.

      I've only served on one jury in my life. It was a pain in the butt to reschedule my life around it, but I would not hesitate to serve again. If I were wrongfully accused, I would pray that intelligent and educated people in that jury box would listen to facts and not emotional blather when deciding my fate.

    3. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Sarten-X · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It's good to see others who actually accept responsibility for the world we live in.

      I actually rescheduled my jury duty for when I had a break in my grad school courses, even though I could have been excused entirely. There's a reason it's called "jury duty", and not "jury we'd-really-like-it-if-you-came-and-helped-please".

      --
      You do not have a moral or legal right to do absolutely anything you want.
    4. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Thing+1 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I actually wanted on the Jury Duty (big software corp was not exciting enough), but was disqualified with this question: "Is a police officer exactly as believable as a citizen?" (although it was worded slightly differently), and my answer was "slightly higher, perhaps 55%", didn't even have time to give my rationale (they have training in situational awareness and in mentally recording a scene for later documentation).

      --
      I feel fantastic, and I'm still alive.
    5. Re:i was called to jury duty once by xmundt · · Score: 4, Funny

      Actually, I had an amusing moment in the early 90s as regards this. I got a jury duty notice addressed to my father. Well, I called the court clerk and had a short conversation that went something like this:
              Me: "Hello....I got this notice and I am calling to let you know that he will not be able to serve".
              Clerk (in kind of a snotty tone): "I'm sorry sir, but everyone that is called is required to serve, or appear to explain why they cannot".
              Me: "That may be a little difficult because he has been dead for six years now..."
                              lllloooonnnnngggg silence.
                Clerk: "Ok...." and hangs up.

                Apparently they got their records updated because I got no more summons. I must admit that I had this momentary desire to jerk them around a bit, and tell them that if they wanted to talk to him, they would have to come and get him....and then give his current address as the cemetary where he was buried.

                Got to love the bureaucracy.
                Dave Mundt

      --
      YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
    6. Re:i was called to jury duty once by X86Daddy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      they were even asking me and others questions about our siblings and what they did (maybe they were asking that because the defendant killed a sibling?

      In a criminal case, they're generally going to drop potential jurors who have a close family member in law enforcement or incarcerated, etc... as that might give the potential juror a stronger-than-usual ability to identify with one side or another on the case. That much is reasonable...

      If you want to be on a jury (I did, and have), especially for jury nullification purposes, be dumb and malleable during that interviewing process... not outrageously stupid, just a nodding your head in the direction the lawyers want you to sort of way; keep your eyes wide. Oh, and never admit to knowing what Jury Nullification is. The last thing you want to do is what another poster here mentioned and that is give well-reasoned, articulate answers that show you've thought about the relevant topics before and have come to conclusions. Be as much of an Every Man as you possibly can in your responses. If asked whether you agree with the laws as written, the answer is "yes." Both the prosecution and the defense want to sway you with emotion, and they want to target average Joes, because that's who they're trained to appeal to. A highly rational person is the best potential juror for justice, and the worst potential juror from a lawyer's perspective.

      As for "getting out of" jury duty vs. trying to get in... consider that it is one of the few and only ways an individual citizen can make a significant difference in how the government treats its citizens, in the face of massive lobbying efforts, emotionally manipulated masses, etc... having a stranglehold on the legislative branch, and massive bureaucratic inertia on the executive branch.

    7. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Funny. Seems to me he was axed from the list of prospective jurors because he showed himself to be someone who could think independently and 'make up his own mind'. Was he supposed to lie and be dishonest in order to get on the jury? Isn't that sort of wrong, from the 'how it's supposed to work' standpoint?

      Where is the fault, here? The 'intelligent, educated prospective juror' who dodged jury duty, or the system designed to select jurors, that removed him from consideration for jury duty for being an intelligent, educated prospect.

    8. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Zequel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or... you could have said "my father has passed away and I received a jury notice for him" and possibly skipped the snotty tone and maybe got a "I'm sorry for your loss sir, we'll update our records, thanks." It seems like you were fishing for a fight being purposely vague.

    9. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have the best one, I bet.

      I was called to jury duty here at a time when my own case was going to be called. I'd have been in my own jury!

      The charge was bogus, long story, but it was for a felony....but I'm a respected citizen, a voter, and eligible. Here in the boonies, jury duty probably means a few days sitting on perhaps a half dozen cases (all the court drums up that need juries in a month -- this is far out boonies, not much happening).

      That was one funny phone call! Since everyone knows everyone here, there wasn't even the bureaucracy excuse...."Hey, Sue, do ya really want me to sit in judgment of me? I can make this real simple for ya then."

    10. Re:i was called to jury duty once by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Notice, he did not say he was trying to get out of jury duty. He sarcastically noted that the system did not want independent thinkers. They booted him for saying he would think for himself. Are you suggesting he should have lied? If someone maliciously sued me, I would want people who can think for themselves on a jury. Obviously, lawyers who make decisions on whom to boot, prefer easily manipulated jurors. I suggest that your ire is misplaced.

  7. Because of transparency, mostly by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Informative

    An important part of the US court system is to be very open in general. That's why there are specific things in the law like the right to confront your accuser. Well another important part is for your defense team, of which you as the defendant are part, to make sure the jury is truly an unbiased group of your peers. It would invite abuse to have a system where the jurors were a secret group that the defense never got to see.

    Yes, it does pose the risk of a defendant attempting to retaliate against jurors, however that is actually extremely rare. It also rarely works out, you'll note that this asshat is now doing more time because of it. There are always tradeoffs, there is no perfect way of doing things and in the US system, transparency of the jury is more important than protecting their identities.

    Also, in general you can speak to the judge privately if an answer is something you aren't willing to make in open court. You can request to approach the bench and talk to them about your concern.

  8. What bankers? by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Which bankers committed trillions of dollars of fraud? I've not heard of this. There have been some billion dollar schemes, Bernard Madoff would be a good example, however he didn't get paid off, he received a 150 year prison sentence for it.

    Or are you generally ignorantly ranting about the recent stock market crash? Here's news for you: It wasn't fraud. Fraud has a legal definition, and what Madoff did was fraud. People going hog wild and speculating on stocks, bonds, commodities, whatever is NOT fraud. It's not smart to do, but it is not illegal.

    Also let's please drop the "Oh those evil bankers!" crap. This mess has no one party responsible, there is blame at all levels. Government regulators are to blame because they failed to keep an eye on this and keep things from getting out of hand. Investment firms are to blame for investing too readily in something that was clearly growing well past any reasonable rate. Banks are to blame for making loans that were far too high a risk. And people are to blame, for walking eyes wide shut in to this situation, for taking loans they can't afford, for investing in a massive bubble.

    Let's not pretend like "the little guy" is innocent here. None of this shit would have happened had normal people not been so eager to get in on this and so willfully oblivious to the risks. Nobody made people take loans they clearly couldn't afford, nobody forced them to refinance all their equity out of their houses to spend on consumables. They chose to do it, and the consequences have been far reaching indeed. However they can't now cry and blame it all on "the bankers." Yep, banks certainly have a big share of responsibility, but so do you, the individual that got yourself in that situation. You did NOT have to do that, you could have been smart about it but you weren't.

    The problem is being responsible wasn't as much fun. It meant keeping a smaller, older house, and not getting all kinds of new toys. Ya well, that was the right answer.

    So knock it off already.

    1. Re:What bankers? by tonyreadsnews · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I agree there is plenty of blame to go around
      However, you seem to think that all people fit into one of those categories.

      What you've missed is that there are 'little guys' who didn't take out a loan they couldn't afford, and didn't make a loan to some high risk person.
      But these 'little guys' are getting screwed because of each of the parties you mentioned. Some of them have been laid off, some have seen their investments brutalized, some are now stuck in their house because their once 80 LTV is now 105 LTV.
      These are a larger percentage of those complaining
      Not to mention the same 'evil bankers' that made the loans also pushed to get regulations relaxed, which makes them somewhat more responsible as without their reckless behavior this mess

      Now these 'little guys' find out their tax dollars are going to the same companies that got us into the mess while these companies also are basically getting free money to make new loans and start back with business as usual.

      At least that's what I complain about and I'm one of those 'little guys'

    2. Re:What bankers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I see you've been reading from the neo-conservative talking points memo again.

      People who received loans they could not afford are only responsible for their own financially-crushing mortgage on their now-worth-less homes, or for the fact that they have no home at all because they were forced to default on their mortgage. Their responsibility ends there.

      You can't blame the mortgage recipients for the bigger picture. That's like blaming the workers on the sales floor or cashiers for the bankruptcy of a store. The fact that there are thousands of people in this situation lies with banks, investors, and government. Each had a responsibility, failed miserably in each of their duties, and turned what should have been a minor problem with a handful of people that could be readily addressed into a major problem that helped tank the economy.

      Bonus points: none of them care to fix the system proper, just well enough to shut people up.

    3. Re:What bankers? by ahodgson · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The recent and ongoing financial collapse was most certainly caused by fraudulent actions. Millions of them.

      - Robert Rubin, Larry Summers, and Tim Geitner, for "pursuading" Congress and President Clinton to repeal Glass/Steagall, which enabled the disaster to enfold
      - every borrowers who fraudulently claimed income they didn't have, or expected to sell their home at a profit before their subprime or ALT-A mortgage reset to full payments
      - lenders fraudulently giving mortgages to borrowers who couldn't document income
      - lenders fraudulently giving mortgages to "subprime" and ALT-A borrowers who they knew couldn't pay the full reset payment
      - lenders and investment banks fraudulently bundling up said mortgages and selling them to investors as AAA investments - while also shorting the hell out of them in their investment arms (demonstrating that they knew they were going to tank)
      - ratings agencies for enabling the AAA ratings on securities they didn't see source documentation for
      - AIG and any other company selling CDS they didn't have the equity to back
      - every company buying a CDS from a company unable to pay for the sole reason of being able take the "protected" loan off their balance sheet and not count it against leverage limits
      - Alan Greenspan and Ben Bernanke for enabling bubble after bubble with too loose monetary policy, while fraudulently claiming there was no bubble
      - Congress, President Bush, and Henry Paulson for presiding over the runup and initiating the failed bailout strategy
      - President Obama for hiring Rubin, Summers and Geitner as his economic team to "fix" the problem, bringing us full circle

      Hey, and that's only in the US. UK and European banks did all the same things. And let's not even talk about the China bubble. No shortage of fraud to go around.

    4. Re:What bankers? by vectorstream · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I second that through and through, it's a perverse musical chairs sort of game where those too slow or just plain stupid get left holding a bag full with crap. I've seen the poor souls who combined as a family make like 50,000 a year before taxes and they try to "buy" a house with what's left. I'm not talking about the flippers who if hey were smart dropped out of the market in 2007 at the peak of the price bubble. I mean people who somehow believed that what was meant to happen wouldn't happed - not to them anyway. With sufficient numbers of those optimists all it takes is: A./Friendly credit-rating firms B./ Even friendlier mortgage processors who'd arrange mortgage for anybody with a pulse as long as the risk gets spread afterwards via CDOs and other derivative crap and C./ totally hapless regulators who never really use whatever little powers they have left to actually try and stop this crazy train going. At the end it wouldn't have been anything wrong with the picture above if it wasn't for the fact that the guilty parties more or less survived for number of reasons and therefore completely destroyed the central tenet of the neoliberal economy: allowing the failed ones to disappear is good. Just like greed.

  9. Re:Pond life by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 2, Funny

    Couldn't have happened to a nicer piece of pond scum.

    Don't be so complimentary - at least pond scum (of the algae variety) has its place in the ecosystem...