Slashdot Mirror
Why Is a Laptop's Battery Dearer Than a Lawnmower's?
Barence writes "PC Pro's contributing editor Paul Ockendon has bought a new lawnmower powered by lithium-ion batteries — part of a recent flood of such lithium-ion-powered garden and workshop tools which are taking over from NiCd and NiMH thanks to lighter weight, longer life and lack of the pernicious 'memory effect.' This is pretty much the same battery technology used in laptops, mobile phones and MP3 players, so volume manufacture is already established. Yet laptop manufacturers charge more per Watt-hour than lawnmower makers. This blog investigates whether such a seemingly ludicrous situation can be justified."
Greed.
The reason why laptop batteries are more expensive per unit energy than a lawnmower battery is because you're only willing to tolerate a certain physical size for a laptop battery. On a lawnmower, by comparison, an arbitrarily large battery is generally acceptable provided it is not too extraordinarily heavy.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
Lawnmower-to-laptop battery adapter. Wheel Cart not included.
That's the free market. If people are willing to pay $50 for cell phone batteries then that is what you charge, otherwise you're leaving money on the table.
Look on amazon, you can get cell phone batteries from reputable companies for far, far less.
And cell phone accessories is an even bigger scam. I wanted another usb cable for my blackberry. From my cell phone company they would charger $30. BestBuy was similar.
I bought one on amazon for $0.39. Yes, 39 cents for a genuine usb cable (+2.50 shipping). Chargers are $0.99.
Look, even the genuine stuff comes out of the cheap factories in China, and you're being gouged if you don't shop around.
I really like the idea of a battery powered lawnmower, as opposed to the electric lawnmower I had as a kid back in the 70s. My parents were foolish enough to think I could use it without running over the cord... boy did I prove them wrong.
http://www.beanleafpress.com
It very well might be that heat dissipation requirements deem that laptop batteries be more efficient (read: latest-generation designs, which invariably will cost more per kWh), where lawnmower batteries can get away with models that throw off more waste heat.
When you pack a battery into 1/3 the space you would ideally want it in it has a tendency to explode. The price discrepancy is trying to minimize the likelihood of it literally burning you. A mower has a lot more space for heat dissipation. It's also less likely to cause third-degree burns on the off chance it does overheat, since you don't use it on your lap.
Or someone has a vocabulary big enough to use the word "ludicrous" without having learned it from a Mel Brooks movie.
Some of it is chemistry, and some of it is brand name inflation. Lithium batteries have a range of formulations. The lowest-cost formulations are suitable for low-amperage discharge, while better formulations can be discharged at a much higher current and still maintain a cool temperature and good recharge longevity. Heat is the real enemy here, so cramped cooling-starved long-running applications like laptops also demand better batteries than a weed-whacker that runs occasionally and has a chance of good airflow. In the radio-controlled hobby, there is a huge range of prices for essentially commodity batteries. These are usually Lithium-Polymer, a step above the usual laptop Li-Ion, but the same economics are in play. There are some "well known names" that are sold in all of the domestic R/C retailers. There are some generics sold in Hong Kong that sell for 1/3 to 1/5 the price, and some are even higher quality in longevity testing. Lithium is lithium, so unless there's an amazing return/warranty policy, it's usually not worth the brand name price.
[
Because any manufacturer is going to charge the most that you are willing to pay. In lawnmowers, there are cheaper alternatives. With laptops, there are not. Pure market based pricing.
While I'm certain that's part of the issue, I think you're missing a more obvious difference - the form-factor.
A laptop is supposed to be relatively small and portable. Laptop manufacturers will advertise how thick their laptop is, how many pounds it weighs, and how many hours it'll run on a battery. Thus, laptop batteries - while they may be made with the same technology - are as small and dense as possible.
A lawnmower, on the other hand, has wheels on it. While you'd have a hard time shoving a 1 ton brick around your yard, it probably doesn't make much difference if the thing ways 15 lbs or 25 lbs... It'll still move easily enough. And if you're going to make it self-propelled it'll matter even less. The same thing goes for the size/volume of the thing... It isn't like this thing has to fit into an overhead bin or a backpack. Hell, your cutting deck is already several feet square - the battery probably isn't going to be the biggest thing on it.
So you've got laptops (and cell phones) where you're trying to build a tiny, dense battery... And lawn mowers where you just need enough juice to run the mower for a couple hours and it really doesn't matter how bulky the thing is.
And folks are surprised that there's a price difference why?
"Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
Mod Parent -1: Blasphemy
Posts not to be taken literally. Almost everything is sarcasm.
I just wish some of this technology transfer would work the other way too. I would love to have a laptop powered by a small integrated gasoline/diesel (diesel would probably work better) engine, and would be willing to pay more per hp than for a lawnmower engine. However, I don't want it to also cut grass- the thought of powered spinning blades under my laptop is not appealing.
"The cost of goods is what the market will bear.." It cost that much because people will pay that much. Expectations are such that consumers are willing to pay more for non-essential "gadgets" in relation to "tools". A person will buy a $2000 dollar laptop but wouldn't dream of buying a $2000 push mower (outside of premium or elite marketing).
Perception of a product influences price. A battery for a laptop is "techie, electronic, computer related" while a battery for you kid's eleectric car is a "consumable, toy, non-essential" and a battery for a lawnmower is "utlility, get-it-done, tool" in perception.
Those perception influence product pricing. There is no conventional "miniturization" in Lithium batteries per say that you have to pay a higher costs to shrink the battery, it seems more driven by natural market dynamics.
-=[ Who Is John Galt? ]=-
Yup, I wouldn't be surprised if the lawnmower variants have some chemistry/construction changes such that:
1) The cells are slightly larger/heavier per Wh despite similar chemistry
2) The cells are optimized for a somewhat different charge/discharge regime than a laptop
The above could easily make significant changes to the cost of the batteries.
retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
Basically the only thing on newer laptops is that there is actual circuitry inside of the battery pack now, but it is all very basic and couldn't cost more than a dollar or two at best. I used to work at Radioshack in college (I know, I know, but I was actually intelligent and truly helpful... not a drone) and I once replaced the cells in my Thinkpad 600 right there on the counter with the Li cells we sold... Everyone was amazed that, that was all that was inside of there. People always seem to think because it has to do with a computer it must be magical and exotic. Basically as long as you know how to properly solder them without killing yourself (the ones with tabs help) it's a 5-10 minute job and cost about $10-15.
http://teasphere.wordpress.com - A little spot of tea
You can get cheap lithium-ion batteries for laptops. Third party knock off brands usually sent straight China. They don't work as well and in some cases can even cause damage. If laptop batteries were easy to make the third party market wouldn't be full of bad batteries.
I don't think this is likely, because there isn't a lock-in effect with lawnmowers. Having bought a Brand X lawnmower, when you replace it (quite a few years later, hopefully) you will have no need to replace it with another Brand X. The point of initial low prices on things like consoles is to achieve market dominance: games manufacturers make games for the most popular consoles so players buy the consoles which makes them the most popular. The de-factso standard for lawns - flat grass - is in the public domain.
Consciousness is an illusion caused by an excess of self consciousness.
Avoids the flex problem, is always charged up, is a lot cheaper to buy and free to run, and as a bonus I get exercise when I cut the lawn! (OK, OK, my *girlfriend* gets exercise when *she* cuts the lawn because I can't be bothered, but the principle's the same!)
You just spent an entire paragraph explaining the short, simple post you replied to.
The question posed in the story is simple. Why do computer manufacturers screw customers on battery prices? Because they do, because they always have, and most importantly, because they can.
Price Fixing is not at issue here. Price fixing is only when multiple manufacturers decide to raise a price simultaneously, which is illegal because it is bad for competition and the end consumer. Price fixing only works with commodities that are highly fungible http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fungible i.e. gasoline or LCD tvs. With laptop batteries, price fixing isn't necessary because you can't buy a Toshiba battery if you need one for a Dell. Laptop batteries aren't fungible.
Just because I can hook a shark from a boat, I do no offer to wrestle it in the water.
More like "Lack of standards"
There is no "Laptop battery pack", each laptop seams to have is own wattage/voltage combo that is unique to that model / brand.
The fact is, there should be a "standard" set of standard "sizes" available, like we have for regular batteries (A, AA, AAA, C, D, 9v, etc).
It isn't "greed" so much as it is the cost of making a large number of short run batteries. When it costs almost as much to get a battery as it does a new laptop, there is something wrong.
Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
Of all the ridiculously priced items out there, why did he pick these batteries? Batteries for laptops need to be smaller, lighter, and more careful about heat dissipation than those in a lawnmower. The 66% premium sounds about right, just like the premium one has to pay for the rest of a laptop compared to a big old desktop PC.
If he wants to rant about prices, how about laptop accessories? I wanted to buy a second wall charger for my laptop, but they were charging $75 for it. What about the price of any cable or charger sold at chain stores? Radio Shack, who used to sell packs of resistors to me for 50 cents, wanted me to pay $25 for a USB cable. It's as if they want me to buy everything online.
And I won't even start on text messages and other cell phone baloney. Ranting about that could be a full time job.
The guy from Sony answered it: size, weight, and output differences. Would someone actually critique that instead of talking about markets, price settings, and conspiracy theories?
Super expensive laptop batteries have always bothered me. If you've ever taken one apart you know whats inside them. A bunch of AA cells strung together in series. Thats it. They're not top of the line Energizer or Duracell either, they are the cheapest of the cheap AA lithium ion cells mass produced in china or japan or where ever is cheapest at the moment. They are worth no more than $5 in total. Its appalling how much these companies charge for trash. This isn't to say all companies use such shit. There are a few that custom make their own batteries for better performance and size.
Or someone has a vocabulary big enough to use the word "ludicrous" without having learned it from a Mel Brooks movie.
The OP is just noting that the article horribly mis-spelled Ludacris' name, right?
No, you would not be accused of any crime. You would not be fined, thrown in jail, etc.
You just wouldn't get any business from people who drive that type of car. Depending on how many people drive that certain type of car, loss of such business might effect your bottom line and cause your business to fail.
From the first line of your post, you proved you do not know the first thing about business or the law. Your second shows a similar lack of knowledge about both the history of electric power and the laws governing utility operations.
Please learn about the topic before you post such drivel.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
that's where the theory of capitalism fail, if every laptop owner know that it has been ripped of money for nothing in return
than, maybe, market would work (and low the price),
Your logic is flawed. If the laptop buyer is offered a price and agrees to it (absent coercion) the laptop buyer has de-facto decided that the value of the product being offered was a fair compensation for the money tendered. A fair deal is one that both parties are willing to agree to - this is the definition EVERY economist you're likely to ever meet uses.
Furthermore not every laptop buyer wants the same things so their willingness to pay is going to be different. There are some products that sell for prices far beyond what I'd be willing to pay for them and that's ok. The fact that we might pay different prices for the same thing is ok in general because odds are the product is worth different amounts to the two of us. Every time you go into a store and decide to buy or not buy something, you are conducting a negotiation. If too few people are purchasing something at a given price, the price will eventually be lowered. This is how markets work. Sellers adjust prices to match buyer's willingness to pay but the only way to get that information is to offer a price and see if the buyer is interested.
The biggest flaw in your logic however appears when you turn your logic around. If you don't pay as much as possible for your purchases aren't you "ripping off" the sellers who worked hard to provide you that product?
but the main component that influence the market today are publicity and obfuscation of real characteristics and flaws of product not informed comparison of products, where intelligent and informed people could decide if they want more reliable, more durable or cheaper product of a certain kind and, buying it, influence the market production.
Nonsense. There is more information available about products today then there ever has been. I'm guessing you've never tried to sell very much because marketplaces are ruthlessly efficient at adjusting prices to match buyers with sellers. Collectively people are extremely good at deciding what sort of products they want and influencing the market. Individually being informed about your purchases is YOUR responsibility. If you choose to not inform yourself, that is your fault and no one else's. I can't decide for your what you want in a product or what your are willing to pay for it. Only you can decide that.