Why Top Linux Distros Are For Different Users

Lucas123 writes "Fedora, openSUSE and Ubuntu Linux desktops may look alike, but they've got some important distinctions, like the fact that Fedora and Ubuntu use GNOME 2.28 (the latest version) for their default desktop, while openSUSE uses KDE 4.3.1. And, Fedora's designers have assumed that its users are wiser than the general run of users. 'For example, in earlier versions, ordinary (non-admin) users could install software on Fedora without access to the root password. As of this version, however, local users will need to enter the root password before they can install software (as they do on almost all other Linux distributions).'"

Comments

What a load of crap

[nacturation]

And, Fedora's designers have assumed that its users are wiser than the general run of users. 'For example, in earlier versions, ordinary (non-admin) users could install software on Fedora without access to the root password.

So according to this "logic", Microsoft assumes that its users are wiser than the general run of users too? Nice way to spin Fedora finally addressing this security issue, dude.

Re:What a load of crap

[NeoSkandranon]

Considering the LFS user is most likely to have an attitude like yours, I'd prefer not to hear a single condescending word from him.

Re:What a load of crap

[HarrySquatter]

Especially since their expertise is most likely just being able to copy and paste commands from the LFS manual.

Re:What a load of crap

[davester666]

It's not just users. Applications still aren't being written to work properly with non-administrator accounts. I just installed SimplyAccounting 2010 on Windows XP and started getting weird errors poking around in it using a Limited Account, but switching to an Administrator account, no more errors.

Re:What a load of crap

[HarrySquatter]

No user should ever be more skilled than any other users, and all distributions should cater to the newbie crowd.

Except the GP made no such point at all. He was saying he didn't want to have some condescending ass try to come and fix his system.

When all computing grinds to a halt because no one knows how to fix or maintain them anymore, at least you'll have the comfort of knowing that no advanced users are going to make a tongue-in-cheek post on Slashdot that stimulates your inferiority complex.

There are plenty of people who have skills that people could go to to fix their computers that don't act like condescending and pompous assholes like you and the rest of the "1337 h4x0r" LSF crowd.

Re:What a load of crap

[Anonymous Coward]

and feel in control of my package

You should always feel in control of your package. ;-)

Re:What a load of crap

[Improv]

It's not like mainstream distros put you in handcuffs. There are plenty of us who customise our chosen distro quite extensively (for example, I've used Redhat/Fedora ever since I switched from Slackware ages ago, and I use WindowMaker instead of GNOME, disable SELinux, reclaim /media for storing my media files, tweak the categories of things the package manager will install from an rpm, replace a subset of the software with things I compile myself, etc). I have multiple terminals open all the time too, and as I said above, I *have* the WM of my choice - I have as much control over my system as you do yours and can change my defaults.

Not everyone really wants to be on the cutting edge, and I like being at least a bit closer to Fedora/CentOS because i use them a lot at work (Debian and CentOS/RHEL are among the best Linuces for servers, while Gentoo is completely inappropriate (although this almost never comes up because Gentoo fans are also completely inappropriate as sysadmins)).

Re:What a load of crap

[Chris Burke]

What I find funny is that I've been using Debian-based distros for many years, and I basically never enter the "root password" to install software or perform other maintenance tasks... I enter my own user password. Not that there's much difference between "access to the root password" and "being allowed to run anything in the sudoers file". Installing software is still a privileged operation.

I take it they must mean without entering any password at all, as in unprivileged?

Seems kinda dumb.

Re:What a load of crap

[The Snowman]

It's not just users. Applications still aren't being written to work properly with non-administrator accounts. I just installed SimplyAccounting 2010 on Windows XP and started getting weird errors poking around in it using a Limited Account, but switching to an Administrator account, no more errors.

I agree, the problem with Windows is not so much the OS itself but poorly written applications.

One of the largest examples is World of Warcraft. After five years, it still insists on storing all of its data in its program directory. I actually had to install it outside of Program Files to get it to work on Vista, even with UAC turned off and logged in as Administrator (the account, not an account in that group).

I think more software developers need to look at Firefox, a good example. Data, including plugins, are kept in the user's home. Different users can have different plugins and data, and everything just works even on a properly-secured system.

Blizzard can even download the source code to figure out basic stuff like "where to put files" because after all these years of writing Windows games, they still lack that basic knowledge.

Re:What a load of crap

[TheCycoONE]

I'd mention that MySpace uses a distributed file system running on Gentoo; but I think that might just prove your point.

Re:What a load of crap

[xouumalperxe]

So according to this "logic", Microsoft assumes that its users are wiser than the general run of users too?

While I don't know whether Microsoft actually designed their operating systems with that rationale in mind, C is a clear case of it: most bugs in C programs come from the language being designed expecting people to really know what they're doing. and therefore allowing all sorts of strange stuff.

Re:What a load of crap

[amorsen]

Installing pre-approved software without root access would be a great step forward both for usability and security. Imagine if we can get to the point where a normal user can use a laptop computer for a year without running with sufficient privileges to install untrusted software.

Sure, there are challenges, first and foremost how to revoke approval of a particular package. That doesn't mean we have to stick with the old trusted root paradigm forever. For the vast majority of Linux laptops/desktops, the user IS the administrator, and we can't expect to educate all computer users to be competent Unix administrators.

Re:What a load of crap

[causality]

Not everyone really wants to be on the cutting edge, and I like being at least a bit closer to Fedora/CentOS because i use them a lot at work (Debian and CentOS/RHEL are among the best Linuces for servers, while Gentoo is completely inappropriate (although this almost never comes up because Gentoo fans are also completely inappropriate as sysadmins)).

Many Gentoo users only use Gentoo for their personal computers. Those same users would recommend distributions like Debian to anyone who approached them and said "hey, I'm new to this Linux thing and I want to run a server, what would you suggest?" Gentoo is for users who a) know their way around Linux and b) love to tinker. It doesn't pretend to be for anyone else. I use Gentoo and very much enjoy it, but I would not recommend it to someone who's new to Linux and switching away from Windows. It's about what you like and believe to be appropriate for the job. It's not a religious cause.

Actually one of the reasons I got into Gentoo in the first place is that I wanted to know more about how a distribution is put together. As a learning tool its manual installation is one of the best. As a "I just want it to work, ASAP" tool it's one of the worst. Again it doesn't pretend to be otherwise. If Gentoo claimed to be the be-all and end-all, the Ultimate Linux Distribution, superior in every way to all others, then maybe I'd understand why it's so trendy to slam Gentoo whenever it comes up in a discussion. Or if I frequently visited the Gentoo Forums and saw the users talking about how lame binary distributions are, maybe then I'd understand it too, but they don't do this.

Since that isn't the case, this looks to me like another religious issue. Like when you have one sect of Christianity going to war against another sect of Christianity because they disagree on whether to drink wine or grape juice for Communion. Naturally the grape-juice drinkers think they have irreconcilable differences with the wine-drinkers and vice-versa. Each side thinks the other is composed of total idiots and assholes. Neither appreciates that what they're arguing over is a trivial matter of taste. Don't like a distro? Good, use something else. That should be the end of it, but it isn't, because it's not good enough that you use what you like, the other guy must also use what you like, right?

Re:What a load of crap

[sa666_666]

Actually, some of us use Ubuntu and the 'easier;' distros because (a) we're tied of screwing around getting things to work like we did 6-7 years ago, and (b) to target the version of Linux that most people seem to be using.

When it comes to fixing inane issues in Linux, just because you *can* do something doesn't mean you constantly *want* to. Many people (myself included) have cut their teeth with Linux since the very beginning, and would like to use something that 'just works' most of the time, rather than performing constant low-level maintenance that is only necessary to elevate ones epeen rating.

Don't knock ease of use, or the influx of new users that will make Linux a force in the industry. It's called progress; maybe you should check it out sometime.

Re:What a load of crap

[silentsteel]

A bit beside the point of this argument, but I happen to use Ubuntu as my primary system because I support several people who I have migrated to it. These users are only concerned with a web browser and an email client. Using Ubuntu makes it easier for phone support, at least in my opinion. I usually open a shell when I am working on their systems directly. I run Slackware and Cent on a couple of "servers", but I, obviously, am most familiar with Debian-based Linux at this point.

Re:What a load of crap

[man_of_mr_e]

Yeah, unfortunately, Vista/7's folder virtualization has made it so apps can continue to be stupid and not fail, so many developers developing on those systems don't notice when they do this. It's only on XP or 2000 when this beocomes noticable because they don't have folder virtualization.

Re:What a load of crap

[sa666_666]

In my experience, it's just the mindset of Windows developers and in some cases Windows users. They've been brought up on a system that was inherently single-user, and apps are still being written that way.

In fact, in several of my multi-platform projects, I had to add specific functionality for Windows users to save into the app folder. I tried to do the same thing on all ports of the program (save settings in home directory, so the program can run from a read-only installation), but received all kinds of feedback and complaints about that being a strange way of doing things. In the end, I added the ability to override the defaults, but it does show that some people still can't see any other way of saving their personal data.

Re:What a load of crap

[obarthelemy]

I actually like WoW's way of doing things: want to backup/restore WoW, or put it on antoher PC ? just copy WoW's dir. No dependencies. No DLL Hell. No registry hacks. Want to wipe it ? Delete the directory.

I wish all programs worked that way and were that easy to manage.

BTW, Data and program files are segregated in separate subdirs. User data, too.

Re:What a load of crap

[rdavidson3]

Sadly, my girlfriend is control of my package and when I get to use it. :(

Re:What a load of crap

[thePowerOfGrayskull]

I agree, but why not differentiate? It's a pointless waste of time for me to have to provide a password on my laptop every time I want to try out new software.

I'm not saying that it's got no place -- clearly if you have a multiple user system, then you only want to right people installing software. But when you don't... it's just one more hurdle on the road to usability.

Re:What a load of crap

[drinkypoo]

Linux doesn't have 'the wheel'. Ubuntu, at least, has a group called admin. Some linux distributions have a wheel group but I've never seen it actually used for anything by default, I think it was just there so that programs expecting it would not choke.

Re:What a load of crap

[digitalhermit]

Don't knock ease of use, or the influx of new users that will make Linux a force in the industry. It's called progress; maybe you should check it out sometime.

I dunno. I enjoy the fact that many people are using Linux.. It helps for many things. But sometimes it's like a good fishing hole. If you have a great spot you might tell one person (or better yet, blindfold them as you drive them there). But once you start inviting people in, pretty soon you have a major interstate and boat ramps and a Don's Tackle Shop and a Starbucks right alongside your nice fishing hole. And instead of people asking you about the merits of hand tied fishing lures or whether hand-made aluminum can shiners are better than factory you start getting people bragging about their RV and powerboats and complaining about having to bait their own hooks.

All said, it's better that there are more people using Linux, but I guess I'm nostalgic for those times when a 5 node compute cluster was something pretty cool.

   

Re:What a load of crap

[mister_playboy]

Since that isn't the case, this looks to me like another religious issue. Like when you have one sect of Christianity going to war against another sect of Christianity because they disagree on whether to drink wine or grape juice for Communion. Naturally the grape-juice drinkers think they have irreconcilable differences with the wine-drinkers and vice-versa. Each side thinks the other is composed of total idiots and assholes. Neither appreciates that what they're arguing over is a trivial matter of taste.

To be fair, the problem is that such groups think these are life and death matters and not trivial ones. You have be more spiritually matured to see that the matter is trivial.

Re:What a load of crap

[Jeremiah Cornelius]

wheel, admin, whatever. The function of the group is independent of it's name. What we are talking about is the way sudo and gksu work.

This Vaughan-Nichols guy gets published as a Linux expert in every rag printed - but mis-explains sudo in such a way that exposes his radical ignorance of the sensitivity of root accounts and their passwords.

In the same article he later waxes on about SuSe being the first distro from which he can now upgrade entire versions over the Internet!

I did it with RH 5.x in antiquity. Also upgraded my old Debian, around 2000, by swapping tags in sources.list and apt getting away. Ubuntu now makes this a triviality.

Well, I guess he's paid for dissing Microsoft - which he manages with the requisite contempt.

Re:What a load of crap

[JWSmythe]

    Ya, just wait til you get married, and she takes it and makes a purse out of it. "We got married, so he didn't need that any more." And no, you don't get it back when you get divorced. :)

Re:What a load of crap

[aix tom]

Yep. I use what I like, everybody else can use what everybody else likes.

My base home system is Gentoo, the current "install" is from around 2002, and has migrated over 4 or five different systems by now without having done a single complete re-install. Whenever I get a new system I just copy over the entire portage tree and sync/re-emerge everything after I have booted from the install disc and adjustments in the make/portage configuration. Sure, it might take a few hours or even days of chugging away in the background, but after that I have a system that is pretty much identical in setup to the original system, just with up to date software versions.

That's basically the one main point why I like it, that the distro itself is versionless. No "Oh, new Distro version out, should I try it?, should I not?", I just have a look every few month which ebuilds have been updated, and update the ones where I like to try the new version. Security and System updates regularly, things like OpenOffice or stuff I don't use much not so regularly.

And in the last couple of years the build - in documentation of what what problems you might have to be aware of in certain package versions is quite good. I personally would never swap this slow "growing" with the "version jumps" of other distros or Windows any more. It might take a little longer to initially set up, but once it is set up you can pretty much have it running forever with regular updates without having to think about re-installs.

OTOH when I needed some "I need a quick OS on this boxes here to keep some people browsing for a few weeks" I obviously installed (X)Ubuntu.

Re:What a load of crap

[NotBorg]

I agree, the problem with Windows is not so much the OS itself but poorly written applications.

You can call a virus a poorly written 3rd party application all you want. I'll still insist that the OS shouldn't let viruses walk all over the system even when ran as an underprivileged user.

How is it still possible to write past the end of a buffer and over the top of executable code? These poorly written applications should crash because the OS tells them no. The NX bit is going on what now? 10 years?

I'm sorry but if your application shits all over the place and the OS doesn't stop it then it is a poorly written application running on a poorly written OS. Also applications would have a tenancy to applications fix themselves at development time if the operating environment expected more of them.

For those who think that these additional checks by the OS would show things down, is it any worse than what Norton does? Maybe AV scanning wouldn't be such a hog if there were fewer viruses because they were harder to develop. If that hole in the networking stack wasn't there 5+ years ago we wouldn't still be scanning for the malware years after the the hole was plugged. Yep, AVs will still scan for viruses the system is now immune to. An ounce of prevention goes a long way.

I know MS has gotten a lot better in recent history and that's great. Still, it will be awhile before they'll earn my trust back especially since we're still suffering from the negligence of the past.

/optopic rant.

Re:What a load of crap

[Delkster]

They could place all actual program files (everything that was put there during installation) in a single system-wide folder in Program Files and all user-specific things (preferences, caches, whatever needs to be modified when running the game) in a single folder inside the user's personal folder.

That would allow for an easy backup or transfer of the entire installation (including personal preferences etc.) since there would still be only two folders to back up (assuming one user who plays the game), and it would also allow the game to be run as a non-admin user.

That's approximately how it would be done on unix anyway...

Re:What a load of crap

[shutdown -p now]

Basically, don't knock it till you try it.

My "condescension" stems from my experience. Gentoo was my second Linux distro, and my first "real" Linux distro (before that I've used Mandrake, but I didn't really do much with it). I used it for almost two years exclusively (of any other Linux distro) as a primary desktop OS, and genuinely held the same opinions that you did - that it's somehow "closer to the metal" than all alternatives, and "teaches me more about Linux".

It was much to my surprise when I found, later on, that Debian requires essentially the same degree of mucking with configs and such (and consequent exposure of those things) from me than what I was used to in Gentoo. Combined with semi-permanent Portage breakage, multi-hour compile times for many large packages on every minor update (KDE, OO.org etc), and the fact that much-touted USE flags can (and do) easily break package dependencies, I've had enough aggregated annoyances to switch to Debian as a primary system for some time, and after the experiment proved to be immensely successful, I've never looked back since.

Re:What a load of crap

[MobyDisk]

I put WoW in its own directory in the root of my Apps drive

That's not what we are talking about. The discussion is about why applications should not store data C:\Program Files, on the system drive. What you have done is totally customized, and solves the problem that WOW introduces. I would probably do the same thing you are doing.

It doesn't matter at all

[BadAnalogyGuy]

Does the distro work with your printer without any complicated installation procedures?
Does the distro work with your audio hardware without any complicated installation procedures?
Does the distro switch between all the resolutions supported by your video hardware?
Does the distro have a reasonably good package installation mechanism?
Does the distro support your applications without special package installation requirements?

If the answer is affirmative to all of the above, then you've got yourself a winner. It's very cool how Ubuntu has essentially forced every other distro to get up to speed on these seemingly basic features. Otherwise, the distros are just flavored differently. It's all the same under the hood.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[bertoelcon]

And these are the reasons Windows still has marketshare. The last 2 are not covered by Windows but because its already got the marketshare then the apps are easy to find. Not trying to troll but that is why it does "just work", even with bugs and holes aplenty.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[RanCossack]

And these are the reasons Windows still has marketshare. The last 2 are not covered by Windows but because its already got the marketshare then the apps are easy to find. Not trying to troll but that is why it does "just work", even with bugs and holes aplenty.

I don't want to troll, either, but this really isn't the case; I tried to reinstall Windows on one of my machines for dual-boot (fresh setup on a new drive) using a generic, non-customized XP disk, and it is amazing how much work it was -- hunting drivers down, having to download extra drivers to a USB key so I could get online, and so on.

You could say Microsoft does a lot of work with its partners to ship customized Windows distros, but out of the box, Windows is pretty bad; we all just either don't have to deal with it or take it for granted.

(Or don't deal with it at all.)

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

And these are the reasons Windows still has marketshare.

Nah. Main reason is most of the driver and install issues are figured out by the vendors at the factory. Once it comes out of the box the users are willing to take lots of punishment when it comes to Windows. Things dont work. Crapware installed by vendor keeps nagging them to upgrade and get the "new and exciting features". Security holes. Forced to buy anti virus products. Vendor lock. Upgrade treadmill....

Through it all the people suffer stoically. But when you suggest switching to Linux they balk. The first thing that does not work, they bitch to high heaven and run back to their captors. One would think the typical PC user is suffering from Stockholm Syndrome.

There are many reasons why Windows has its market share. "It just works" is not one of them.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[gbarules2999]

Windows 7 is a little better, and this is coming from a Linux user. So they are trying.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[jedidiah]

Ubuntu also brought something else to the table: The Debian package manager.

RPM was clearly inferior. Debian despite of it's other tradeoffs always had
a packager that was just the bees knees. I even defected from Mandrake to
Debian myself over this.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[Hatta]

If all the major distributions were sold at BestBuy and Joe Sixpack walked in and wanted to buy Linux, he'd have no idea which one to get.

If I walk into Best Buy and want to buy Windows 7, I'd have no idea which one to get.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[man_of_mr_e]

I think you will have precisely the same problems with an 8 year old Linux distro as well. SATA won't be supported, newer NIC that don't have an emulation mode won't be supported. Newer video cards won't be supported by X, etc... Now, granted, once you get the basics working you should be able to update but you will still have most of those same issues.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[radish]

Well it is my experience. I just put Win 7 on all my machines at home, including the couple which were running Ubuntu Desktop. The UI is better (no really, it is), the install was easier (again, really) and laptop battery life was better in at least one case. I still have Ubuntu on my server because the very idea of a Windows server makes me feel a little ill, but for the desktop Win 7 does everything I need easily and cleanly. Of course I'm not everyone, and I'm glad there are options.

Out of interest, which version of Windows were you trying to install, and how old is the laptop? The only problems I had with 7 were on an older laptop which Intel mysteriously refuse to release drivers for. I got it working reasonably easily with a generic driver but Aero doesn't work.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[onefriedrice]

Ubuntu also brought something else to the table: The Debian package manager.

So the most notable contribution of Ubuntu for you is a package manager which existed before Ubuntu... Yeah, I'm pretty sure that is actually in support of the point I made.

Re:It doesn't matter at all

[Just Some Guy]

And these are the reasons Windows still has marketshare.

What is this? Proof by counterexample? Let's try those criteria against my wife's HP laptop:

Does the distro work with your printer without any complicated installation procedures?

"Where'd I put the driver CD for the HP printer that Linux, FreeBSD, and OS X supports out of the box?"

Does the distro work with your audio hardware without any complicated installation procedures?

Ask a Creative owner.

Does the distro switch between all the resolutions supported by your video hardware?

"Oh look! 640x400 until I find the right driver on nvidia.com, except that now it's telling me to use the special drivers packaged by my laptop vendor and not the "generic" ones directly from Nvidia."

Does the distro have a reasonably good package installation mechanism?

On Windows? LOL. Even billg agrees that "Add/Remove Programs" is a stupid name for an app that doesn't actually add programs.

Does the distro support your applications without special package installation requirements?

Windows supports precious few of the Linux apps I need to do my job. Mac users would have similar complaints.

openSuse

[abigor]

Nice to see good results for openSuse. The reviewer didn't fall for the immature "Novell is evil!" absurdity.

Re:openSuse

[Interoperable]

Although, it would be worthwhile to point out that openSuSE doesn't favor KDE over Gnome. It has fully integrated the SuSE environment into both. As I understand it, the decision to set the default selection to KDE is quite arbitrary at this point.

I'll add that it's a fantastic distro for reasonably modern computers. Yast is a great tool, but the whole thing is a bit too heavyweight for netbooks or old PCs.

Of course

[Monkeedude1212]

If Linux Distro's were targetted for the same users, there wouldn't be anything to distinguish them amongst each other, ultimately defeating the point of having a seperate distro.

I should write an article about "Why People like different foods" and see if it makes the front page Foodnetwork.com

In all seriousness though, its a decent breakdown of the Distro's, but I've always kind of been on the impression that anyone who has seriously considered using Linux already knows what distro they expect to be using.

Two things are important in the end

[Anonymous Coward]

Package management and an active online support/BBS/community. With those things you can do whatever you want with a little patience and research.

Who cares....

[salva84]

Who cares? I've been using Linux around 10 years ago, I'm a computer engineer, and after all, I beeing using Ubuntu until today. I've tried a lot of distros, but I've never found a better distro for me, despite I'm a programmer too.

Re:Who cares....

[greenguy]

I have to agree. I get annoyed when I hear people describe Ubuntu as distro that's appropriate for Linux newbies. It's not that that's untrue, it's that it sells Ubuntu short. It makes it sound like it's dumbed down somehow, and that after using it for a while, you'd want want to move on to something more advanced. That's simply not the case. All the advanced features are there, waiting for you, as soon as you're interested in them.

Re:Who cares....

[mweather]

I solder my own logic gates.

Re:Who cares....

[tubeguy]

I'm Morgan Freeman.

Re:Who cares....

[BJ_Covert_Action]

Agreed, wholeheartedly so. I hopped from the sinking Windows ship after XP and started using Ubuntu on release 8.04. I must admit that I am not nearly as proficient on Ubuntu or Linux as I would like to be, but I am learning quickly. Where the first few months of my Ubuntu experience had me clicking through GUI's and resetting defaults regularly, after a few months of posting on the Ubuntu forums and getting a feel for how problems can be typically trouble-shooted, I started gediting config files and browsing through /etc on a regular basis. I started downloading some programs that could not be found in my repositories (with more confidence) and even started editing my sources list. Eventually I switched my default editor over to vim and began spitting out shell and perl scripts right and left to keep things simple for me and give me some peace of mind security wise. I've been using Ubuntu for just over a year now and, already, I am now posting advice on the Ubuntu forums more frequently than asking for it.

The point isn't that I learned quickly, its that, since I wanted to learn some of the more hardcore and advanced features of linux, it was easy for me to go out and do so once I got comfortable. The nicest thing about Ubuntu is that it doesn't scare the crap out of you the first time you use it. As a social experiment, I often take my non tech literate friends and sit them down at my central living room computer (hooked to my TV) which is running 9.04 and tell them to put on some music to listen to. None of these folk have ever used anything but Windows. None of them take more than 20 minutes and maybe 1 or 2 questions to figure it out.

Once someone gets comfortable with Ubuntu, if they want to start developing more advanced skills, they have a friendly place to ask which is easy to find (almost always google search result #1 with the word Ubuntu in it), the Ubuntu forums. When they do start asking about advanced topics, they are never dismissed as newbs or told something condescending. They are never attacked or outright flamed. Instead, if what they are asking about really is something of concern, they are told, in a rational and mature manner, about the risks they may or may not be taking. I couldn't be happier with the Ubuntu experience so far. I may decide to distro jump sometime in the future out of boredom or curiosity, but in terms of need, I really can't see a good reason to find something else.

Re:Who cares....

[Rennt]

Ubuntu is not a toy - but it is a "desktop" distro, which means it does get in your way if you are used to managing a system the Unix way.

Which is fine - for a "desktop" user. But if you are actually interested in how the system works, you probably *will* want to move to Debian or Slackware eventually.

Re:Wiser? WTF

[Cro Magnon]

It's an indication that you believe your users are wiser than the average users, or at least that you expect them to become so.

And THAT is an indication that the Fedora developers are NOT particularly wise.

no root password?

[burnin1965]

in earlier versions, ordinary (non-admin) users could install software on Fedora without access to the root password

huh?

I've used every version of Fedora linux and before that I've used Red Hat Linux from version 4.2 until Fedora Core 1. I don't recall ever having the ability to install software without providing the root password. In fact, when this type of insecure feature was implemented in Fedora 12 it caused a huge uproar and the insecure feature was removed in an update.

Senior Citizen Linux

[NukeDoggie]

Someone should make a version of Ubuntu or openSuse or Fedora or whatever that is designed for Seniors. Large Fonts, easy to use, very little duplication of apps, no problems... I bet it would spread far and wide. We have the kids checking it out, time to take the seniors... Also, why does all the netbook distros never fit the dialogs on the screen? 800x480 is not much to work with granted...

Re:Senior Citizen Linux

[Monkeedude1212]

In a couple of decades Shuttleworth, Torvalds, and Stallman will all be old enough to take on this project themselves.

root password??

[pydev]

As of this version, however, local users will need to enter the root password before they can install software (as they do on almost all other Linux distributions).'"

You don't need to enter the root password on Ubuntu or Debian; you enter your own password. And that works if you have administrator privileges, which is a choice while setting up accounts.

Tried Ubuntu, switched back to Fedora

[Stone316]

I installed Ubuntu 8 on my kids computer and they loved it... I played about with it as well and liked it enough that once it came time to rebuild my linux box I decided to install 9.04... I have to say, i'm not impressed with 9.0.4... I have had issues with using the software manager to install new applications.. I miss the popular column and thought that was great. Switching to a static IP address wasn't straight forward... It seems that if you are the type of user that will just download it, install defaults and use it, then its fine. But as soon as you want to make changes, it started to get painful.

So for now i'm switching back to Fedora.. Something i'm familiar with and just seems to work.

Re:might hop distro again

[Tikkun]

I've jumped from Archlinux (love it, but in the end... it's too much manual work) to Ubuntu 9.10 recently.

Funny, I stopped using Ubuntu on my notebook over a year ago and installed Arch Linux on it for the same reason :D

Re:Need root to install software?

[Hatta]

I've got to say, this is a huge feature that most package managers are missing. If I can download an archive, unpack it, and run it from ~, I should be able to install a package under ~ as well.

Slackware

[spaceyhackerlady]

If you can't do it with Slackware, it doesn't need doing.

:-)

...laura

Re:Slackware

[ojintoad]

That's what I keep telling my mom when she yells at me to clean the basement.

Ubuntu sucks for development

[NoYob]

Their support of development tools stinks compared to fedora and on Ubuntu (9.10), the Qt environment has compatibility issues with the Ubuntu "supported" packages. I had issues getting headers files and assorted build environments to work.

I went back to fedora because it was easier and much quicker than fixing Ubuntu's mistakes.

Re:Wiser? WTF

[amorsen]

Actually the Fedora assumption was the exact opposite: That we can't expect to pop up a dialog asking the user for the root password to approve the installation of software, and have the user make the right decision every time. It is better to make a list of safe software which can't compromise an installation, and allow the user to install that without prompts.

This is not without problems, but once it is done right, the system will be less dependent on users making the right choices.

A certain lack of iron uniformity.

[Zombie Ryushu]

I'm not trying to say that user choice and the variance of Linux distributions are bad, but I see some problems that make my life a headache. Especially on the RPM side of things.

For example.

The Four major Desktop distributions out there are:

Fedora
OpenSUSE
Mandriva
Ubuntu.

Ubuntu is Debian based, and not like the other three. So, I will set it aside just momentarily. I'd like to focus on the RPM based systems for the moment because that is what I have the most experience with.

The three RPM based systems have a whole lot of needless Dissimilarities. Even in the RPM system itself. has strange separations in the way it handle packaging. There really is no reason for these differences to exist. Other than making it more difficult to install and manage software, there is no reason for these differences to exist. They just confuse people.

Another thing that drives me berserk is how the RPM distributors tend to "tinker" with the default KDE and Gnome Installs configuration. For example, replacing the Kicker logo with their own Mandriva/Suse/Fedora logo. This really confuses people. It doesn't add to the user experience at all to change how applications are ordered at random, or change the Icon for the K and Gnome Menus. It just confuses people more.

You don't see this in the Debian world. They leave should leave the default configurations of KDE, Gnome, and the other Window managers. Also, a memorandum of understanding or treaty should be formed that says that they will have uniform RPM Macros, and Uniform Application categories.

I do alot of packaging for Mandriva.

Re:What nonsense!

[man_of_mr_e]

Video resolution? Huh? Really who runs their monitor at less than the max? I'm running at 1920x1200 and there is NO reason to use anything else.

Ever tried using a 15" laptop with 1600x1200 resolution? The text is impossible to read. Most people run these at much lower resolutions than the hardware is capable of running at. The same is true of people with poor eyesight.

You're a classic example of why Linux has problems, claiming there is "NO reason" for something shows a lack of foresight or even imagination. Too many Linux developers feel the same. Because they don't have a problem with something, they firmly believe nobody should have a problem with something, and refuses to support it.

Gentoo

[jittles]

So does that mean Gentoo is designed for users that have more free time?

Re:What nonsense!

[idontgno]

You're a classic example of why Linux has problems, claiming there is "NO reason" for something shows a lack of foresight or even imagination. Too many Linux developers feel the same. Because they don't have a problem with something, they firmly believe nobody should have a problem with something, and refuses to support it.

+1 Right On

There's a lot of "If I don't need it, no one needs it" arrogance in the OS community. Part of it comes from "it works for me, I don't care about you" (which is just fundamental human nature); part of it is the longstanding "RTFM" tradition (i.e., the root geek community that Free Software sprung from put a high premium on self-help. The extreme manifestation, and also the practical reason for full source code disclosure in FOSS, is "Read the Fucking Source" as the rejoinder for someone asking for help.)

It's a cultural weakness now that FOSS has spread into the general public. Unless you're paying for support, no one is obligated to help you, so if you're not technically savvy and have enough time and effort to chase it down, you're stuck.

Fedora has always required the root password

[fluxdvd]

To my knowledge (I've been using Fedora since its inception), Fedora has always required root credentials, or the user be in the sudoers list to install software packages. Only in Fedora 12 was that not the default behavior, and there was a BIG uproar over that change (see the VERY lengthy discussion on this issue on the RedHat Bugzilla report - https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=534047), which has since change the default behavior BACK to requiring root credentials to install software.

Re:What nonsense!

[Neil Hodges]

Ever tried using a 15" laptop with 1600x1200 resolution? The text is impossible to read. Most people run these at much lower resolutions than the hardware is capable of running at. The same is true of people with poor eyesight.

It's called increasing the font DPI. I do that on my 15" laptop which has a screen resolution of 1920x1200, and my eyesight is terrible. If you aren't using bitmap fonts, it should work just fine.

Installation to removable media

[tepples]

I had to add specific functionality for Windows users to save into the app folder. [...] some people still can't see any other way of saving their personal data.

I'd bet that a lot of these "some people" use multiple desktop computers and carry their apps and data with them on a USB mass storage device. There's even a name for apps that support this use case: portable apps (not to be confused with multi-platform or mobile apps). The solution I used for one of my own apps was as follows:

1. If a file named "installed.ini" in the program's folder is present, write settings to a .ini file in a folder inside %APPDATA%.
2. Otherwise, write settings to a .ini file in the program's folder.

Installation inside the Program Files folder writes "installed.ini"; installation to removable media does not.

Take with a grain of salt.

[Tubal-Cain]

Speaking of easy, openSUSE is also the first of the major Linux distros that makes it simple to upgrade the system over the Internet. With most distros, you need to download an ISO image of the new release and then boot from it to upgrade your Linux distribution. However, I was able to do an in-place upgrade of openSUSE 11.1 to 11.2 on my ThinkPad over a Wi-Fi connection. This arrangement makes upgrading the entire operating system as simple as installing one really big program.

That's been a part of Ubuntu's Update Manager for...how many years now? And in Debian using stable rather than lenny in your /etc/apt/sources.list will achieve the same effect. Or you could just use testing and enjoy more-up-to-date-but-still-stable software that has rolling updates.

All Linux apps, or just those not in the repo?

[tepples]

Installing/uninstalling applications is still much different and more confusing in Linux.

Are you talking about applications in general or only those that aren't in the distribution's repository? Synaptic makes it fairly easy to install and uninstall software on Ubuntu; it puts the Add back in Add/Remove Programs.

Some apps break at high DPI

[tepples]

It's called increasing the font DPI.

Then you have to deal with

• poorly-tested yet necessary apps whose layout breaks at high DPI,
• apps that don't resize all elements including icons and other graphics,
• apps that use ugly nearest-neighbor resampling for graphics, and
• apps whose response time slows down proportionally to the number of pixels in the window.

Re:Some apps break at high DPI

[Neil Hodges]

And if you lower the screen resolution, you have to deal with blurriness on LCDs (non-native resolutions) that may make it even harder to look at.

I know I get headaches if I'm using anything more than a VGA console at a non-native resolution on LCDs.

Re:What nonsense!

[Sloppy]

Ever tried using a 15" laptop with 1600x1200 resolution? The text is impossible to read

If your text is too small to read, it's because your text is too small. You don't need fewer pixels per screen; you need more pixels per character. Fix your fonts, and it'll be easier to read than switching to a lower res.

I'm not arguing people shouldn't be able to change resolutions, but damn that's a dumb example.

I don't get it...

[beetlejuice321]

I don't get this article. Comparing Linux distributions is a old game and debate not worth even having anymore. With LSB and as others have mentioned all programs run exactly the same on all distributions. What's the difference between installing Fedora, Gentoo, Ubuntu or Susu, and customizing it by installing your own dekstop etc? Nothing! All linux distributions are the exact same Linux.

The only difference is the package manager. Thats it. On a server side it makes since to care if you pay for vendor support, but for a dekstop it makes no difference. It boils down to do you like RPM or Debian (or portage in Gentoos case) packages better. Thats all.

The reason the author complains about Ubuntu is because they are driving an improved graphics performance in the desktop. Pioneering new features (enabling desktop effects etc). This is something that people want and is needed if you want to attract people from Mac OS and Windows (Vista/7). If the author had installed the same features on Suse or Fedora, he would have noticed his Intel drivers had problems with those distro's as well...because its Linux, not Ubuntu with the Intel driver problem.

I have used just about every major Linux distribution out there, and a couple years ago I switched to Ubuntu. Ubuntu just works, but mostly its the community. Ubuntu has such an incredible amount of support from a world wide community, it makes it a breeze to accomplish just about any task you may find yourself needing help with.

I wish Linux users would stop worrying about who has the biggest #$@@, and start comparing themselves to something really competitive, like doing things better and faster then Windows or Mac! I am tired of games not running, online streaming content (audio/video) partial working, and the lack of developed software such as beta versions of everthing from Skype to other apps. If you want Linux taken seriously by software developers, why not start unifying efforts to make "Linux" better. Instead of complaining about why some distro isn't as good as another.

Re:[OT] Sig question (Was: Re:What a load of crap)

[Chris Burke]

No, it's just plain broken. I tried to fix it, but they now enforce the character limit even including html, and I'm too lazy to actually come up with a different one. Oh wells.

Re:What nonsense!

[jedidiah]

Ask the average WinDOS user how they change the resolution on their machine.

Chances are that they can't tell you because they have never done it in their life.

Most Windows users have never bothered and most Linux users have never bothered. So both groups of users would likely not be able to tell you off the top of their heads what the shiny happy easy tool is in their respective operating systems for doing this.

That doesn't mean that it isn't there.

Re:What nonsense!

[FranTaylor]

"Ever tried using a 15" laptop with 1600x1200 resolution? The text is impossible to read"

Make the text bigger. If you can't then there is a problem with the software.

Re:Need root to install software?

[Hatta]

What about shared libraries? Should those be duplicated everywhere?

The user installed package should use the system library if available, otherwise install a copy under ~.

What about differing versions of the same package? Should user X have the old version and user Y have the new version?

Each user should use whatever version they want.

What if the user installs it and the admin installs it? Should the user's package have higher precedence (PATH, MANPATH, etc.) or the system-wide package?

It's up to the user to set up the PATH the way they want it.

These aren't particularly hard questions.

Linux, for the use.

[colinrichardday]

I doubt either Windows 7 or OSX could run on my computer (768 M of RAM). Ubuntu 9.10, no problem. Just toss in the Live version and get on the Net

Re:Why? (Re:It doesn't matter at all)

[Culture20]

So why do people still say this Debian is so much better than RPM?

Because apt-hell isn't the popular term. Even when I'm in apt-hell on a weird Ubuntu variant, I call it rpm-hell because that's what people understand. It's like Kleenex or Coke, a package management problem Brand so popular that it's a generic term for all package management problems. Even gentoo users don't say portage-hell, they call it portage.

Works the same in WINE

[imtheguru]

I actually like WoW's way of doing things: want to backup/restore WoW, or put it on antoher PC ? just copy WoW's dir. No dependencies. No DLL Hell. No registry hacks. Want to wipe it ? Delete the directory.

I wish all programs worked that way and were that easy to manage.

BTW, Data and program files are segregated in separate subdirs. User data, too.

By the same token, one only has to launch the WoW executable to run it in Linux using WINE.