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Proposed NASA Mission Would Sail the Seas of Titan
The BBC has a report on a proposal that will be submitted to NASA for funding — a mission to Saturn's moon Titan that would deposit a lander on its hydrocarbon sea. (We recently discussed the widely-circulated photo of sunlight glinting off one of Titan's seas.) "The scientific team behind the idea is targeting Ligeia Mare, a vast body of liquid methane sited in the high north of Saturn's largest moon. ... 'It is something that would really capture the imagination,' said Dr Ellen Stofan, from Proxemy Research, who leads the study team. 'The story of human exploration on Earth has been one of navigation and seafaring, and the idea that we could explore for the first time an extraterrestrial sea I think would be mind-blowing for most people,' she told BBC News. ... The Titan Mare Explorer (TiME) has already been under study for about two years. It is envisaged as a relatively low-cost endeavor — in the low $400m range. It could launch in January 2016, and make some flybys of Earth and Jupiter to pick up the gravitational energy it would need to head straight at the Saturnian moon for a splash down in June 2023."
The story of human exploration on Earth has been one of navigation and seafaring, and the idea that we could explore for the first time an extraterrestrial sea I think would be mind-blowing for most people
Oh come on, everyone knows that once you invent satellites the whole map is revealed!
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
At least it could find a few sirens.
I would seriously be interested in donating maybe a hundred dollars toward something like this, and I can't be the only one. Are there any non-profit organizations that fund similar missions?
Interestingly enough, the Cassini Orbiter's landing probe, the Huygens, which landed on Titan a few years back, was designed with floatation devices, just in case it hit liquid instead land (ultimately it hit land). An interesting fact about Titan: the high density of the atmosphere, combined with a much lower gravitational force than that of earth results in very soft probe landings. In fact, it is hypothesized that on Titan, a human could strap fake wings on his arms and fly -- now if only we breathed methane and could survive at temperatures colder than -200F...
Wikipedia has a picture showing the probe floating on Titan.
One question I can immediately see an answer to is whether the ASRG generates as much power in vacuum as it will on the surface of Titan. My assumption is that having a weaker heat sink will reduce power output but I can't confirm that.
http://michaelsmith.id.au
Probing things is what we do. I dare say the first probe was a finger, now look at us! We shall continue to probe where no probe has probed before!
Probe on my friends, probe on.
Damn idiots! What do they expect?
'Landing' a probe on a sea of liquid hydrocarbons....
I hope it's got floaties on it.
Don't be apathetic. Procrastinate!
Sometimes the point of science need be be nothing more than to capture our imaginations and/or blow our minds.
That "boat ride" is about .01% of the federal budget or what we spent on Iraq in less than 10 hours.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Are you kidding? Resources will always be scarce as long as we use only the resources on the Earth.
Besides that, someone has to do the work, and work isn't free or cheap.
Where did this methane come from? The common wisdom is that terrestrial hydrocarbons come from old dead stuff. Maybe not?
This sort of BS analysis has been around forever. What do you think it going to happen with the $400 million? Think we are going to launch it into space? That goes to creating jobs, and the various space programs are *a lot* more effective than the close to $2 *trillion* spent on the other bogus stimulus plans in actual job creation. Even Governor Moonbeam himself has recognized the value of the space program in economic terms.
Now, if all we were going to do was pay someone to tell us what Titan is like, certainly the information would not be worth it. Pure science has never been and will never be the purpose of NASA. But building things to find out (and this creating movement in the economy and jobs) pays off.
Brett
At the end of its mission, the sea should be set aflame. For science!
It's certainly a better use for 400M than bailing out a bunch of banks...
Furthering human knowledge and exploration of our solar system.
Sitting here on Earth for perpetuity won't solve our problems. Most of the problems we have here on Earth that are able to be addressed at all are largely the result of a poorly structured economic system in one form or another.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
This idea is beyond awesome. Sending a "ship" to sail the seas of another world. And the price... $400 million... is uber-cheap in the world of space exploration.
Unless we can send a man to a near-Earth asteroid, this is the kind of exploration NASA should be doing... not manned attempts at Mars. Not yet.
Life is hard, and the world is cruel
Post-scarcity society? Not in our wildest dreams. Even Stephenson's Diamond Age was set in a society with scarcity, albeit one of a different variety, and we're not anywhere close to even that level of technology.
Do you mean a society that doesn't include economic growth? That defies human nature, and would require a society so oppressive that Stalin would look like a hippie.
As for as NASA: sure, it produces pretty pictures and produces technological spin-offs, but it also maintains our prestige in the world by employing top scientists to do top research. It continues a 400 year old tradition of discovery, and ennobles the human spirit. It's wonderful.
I am tired of people complaining about NASA's budget. It's really a bargain. A penny out of every dollar you pay in taxes goes toward it. If you've printed out a gorgeous photograph for your well, or read an article and said "hrm, that's interesting", or eaten freeze-dried food, you've more than gotten your money's worth.
Fuck the moon! Fuck mars*! THIS is the stuff! Yeah!
To me that would be the coolest mission, since the moon landing. The only other thing I can think of, that comes close, are the satellites that are already leaving the solar system.
(* To those with emotional deficiencies *nudge* *nudge*: Of course I don’t mean that we should completely ignore mars, or even the moon. It’s just that it’s silly to focus on a moon landing, when on the other hand, you got stuff like this! The stuff that is every scientist’s and every layman’s wet dream of exploration. The feeling of being on a place, that others can’t even imagine!! And the science that would come out of it, would just be crazy!)
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
"Skipper, I thought you said this was only a three hour tour."
Table-ized A.I.
blacksheepwall
Maybe our agencies don't want to find life yet, as some societal and religious aspects of there being life somewhere else would drive the religious folk crazy, or maybe they don't want to contaminate Europa. Whatever the reason they need to get off of their collective rear ends (asses) and do a mission there before even going back to Mars. I just get tired of the new bright and shiny and unpaid for missions, and some of the more dumb funded one that just go in circles snapping images of useless real estate, when Europa truly deserves, on all levels, a serious series of missions that bring light to what resides under the ice.
It's certainly a better use for 400M than bailing out a bunch of banks...
Seriously. $400M here, $400M there...pretty soon we're talking real money ;)
Your brain is not a computer.
Human exploration is what capture's the public's imagination.
We are driving robots around on the surface of Mars. That is really cool. As a kid I never thought this is how it would happen.
We have now sent probes outside our own solar system. That is a humbling experience, to be be alive in the generation in which mankind first extends its reach beyond its home solar system.
But apart from a few news broadcasts and scoping out some pictures on the internet, the public has hardly batted an eye. We need to get back to pushing the boundaries of human space exploration. Yes there are more practical matters to apply resources to, yes it violates a minority's view of the philosophy of government, but I am hard pressed to care.
We have one life to live. Let's push as hard as we can, as far as we can. Let's put a permanent base on the Moon in 10 years. Let's put a permanent base on Mars in 15 years. Let's mine asteroids for resources. Let's turn those bases into colonies.
Where's our perspective? Where's our human spirit? The problems we face on this pale blue dot are utterly insignificant in scheme of the cosmos.
Let's go see what's out there, or fail spectacularly trying, but at least having tried.
I wouldn't mind paying my taxes toward space missions like this; it's all the other frivilous crap like bailouts, corporate welfare, corn subsidies and unnecessary wars that are really disgusting uses of tax dollars.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Do you still have an old Pentium III in the corner that you play that game on?
Hrm, let's see ... spend $400 million to explore grand new vistas and expand the sum total of human knowledge ... or spend $400 million on a website. I dunno, that's a tough one ...
Nope, I play Civ IV on an old P4 in the corner.
If God forks the Universe every time you roll a die, he'd better have a damned good memory.
3D printing, robots, AI, better design, renewable energy, and so on. These things can produce more than most people need for a good life. How about NASA spending money on this old idea first?
"Advanced Automation for Space Missions"
http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
"What follows is a portion of the final report of a NASA summer study, conducted in 1980 by request of newly-
elected President Jimmy Carter at a cost of 11.7 million dollars. The result of the study was a realistic proposal for a self-replicating automated lunar factory system, capable of exponentially increasing productive capacity and, in the long run, exploration of the entire galaxy within a reasonable timeframe. Unfortunately, the proposal was quietly declined with barely a ripple in the press. What was once concievable with 1980's technology is now even more practical today. Even if you're just skimming through this document, the potential of this proposed system
is undeniable. Please enjoy. "
But now, we get "taken for a ride" by a few scientists instead.
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Link to a filehost or torrent instead of Amazon, and then we'll care.
I got my copy from the local public library.
$sig not found
Another way to look at it:
If you took the money that went into making "Waterworld" and "Van Helsing" you'd almost have $400 mil. Throw in "King Arthur", and you've got an extra $35 million left over. (Source)
I would gladly have sacrificed those gems of cinematography for the sake of space exploration.
The story of human exploration on Earth has been one of navigation and seafaring
The story of human exploration on Earth has also been one of spreading disease and wiping out indigenous populations. Bacteria are known to survive the radiation and vacuum and cold of space quite nicely, thank you. I do not think this is a good way of looking for alien life.
Infuriate left and right
Maybe our Laura could go there. She would be the first teenager to sail the seas of Titan, which is much cooler than being the youngest kid to sail around Earth.
-- Cheers!
Watch out for the pirates of Titan.
Oh I'm in full agreement about the frivolous crap. I don't think government should be funding space missions either, but the amount spent on that is unquestionably a pittance compared to all the other stuff; that and the value we get from NASA make it a very low priority to concern my political self with. I just enjoy the knowledge they bring back from the stars.
Your brain is not a computer.
I was thinking of something along the line of giving people a choice to have some of what they pay in taxes go toward NASA or what not. Those who want to fund it can and those who don't could choose not to contribute.
Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
Sure, lakes of oil are cool, but ultimately not of any use. Based on how we think life starts, there probably is no life there. Europa on the other hand? Oxygenated oceans of water. Best chance for life of anywhere we know. Can we put this to a vote or something?
gee... I have a whole cabinet full of P4's... real P4's and celery's. Maybe I should upgrade a bit... of course... they're all linux boxes, so it's all good.
-Restil
Play with my webcams and lights here
I think the quick answer is that Europa is not as simple as it sounds. A lander has to bring fuel to slow down on Europa, not so
Titan which has a handy handy thick atmosphere with which to slow the descent. Even if you landed on Europa you then
have to start scraping at the ice to get at those red stripes (they're rust -- sorry). The Titanian-space boat proposed will
be equipped with a mass spec and I guarantee, there are probably a whole lot of interesting organic molecules swimming
in that methane solvent. I rate Europa high but we need something big, nuclear powered, and coupled with a means to either drill
or melt its way down.
Plus Jupiter's radiation is a b----!
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/03/010329075139.htm
I thought about the Primus CD: "Sailing the Sea of Cheese."
This ain't rocket surgery.
Those who want to fund it can and those who don't could choose not to contribute.
Almost like it doesn't need to be a government agency...
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
I'm torn about "King Arthur", at least it gave us good soundtrack ;)
One that hath name thou can not otter
This sounds like a really fun idea to sail around on another planet, but anyone that has ever been in a boat knows this is a dumb idea. Haven't you ever had a small boat get stuck on a sandbar or rock? The wikipedia page says it would only be propelled by the wind. If the wind only blows one way, it might travel straight to the shoreline and get stuck there. The shoreline could easily be craggy so there would be no traveling along the shoreline. Even if you had some method of propulsion, it might not be powerful enough to overcome the wind or free itself from an obstacle. If your main goal is to study the liquid, then it is ok, but don't expect to see much of anything else on the planet.
What is really needed is to do the mission using "multiple independently targetable reentry vehicles" (MIRVs). Drop different probes all over the place to study different things. Some could study the liquid, some could be rovers, etc. Have China, Russia, Japan, the EU, etc. each design and sponsor some probes -- that way the cost is not all on the U.S. The sponsor nation would then be in charge of carrying out the science of each probe. Send one group of probes and orbiter, then another group 6 months later. That will provide some redundancy in case of equipment failure.
Have you ever been in a boat? If the wind only blows one way, you tack against it (if you want to go close to directly opposite wind direction - slow but it does work) or just set your sails right to get propelled whichever way you want to go roughly perpendicular to wind direction. Or you can always run with the wind if you'd actually like to go wherever the wind blows. Really, sailing on the seas of Titan with a constant wind direction would be damned easy. If there are storms, on the other hand... but (someone please correct me if I'm wrong) I don't think we've seen any big ones in our studies of the atmosphere.
What about recycling? Or imagination? As long as we have endless power from the sun, we can support lots of activity on Earth. I'm all for space habitats -- but why not just build them directly, rather than mess around with more "exploration" instead of actually building habitats that we knew how to build in the 1970s (Gerry O'Neill)?
With 3D printing and robots, work can be free and cheap -- in fact, that is a major crisis right now with the jobless recovery as trends in automation and better design are leading to widespread structural unemployment, that given limited demand by healthy humans for more stuff, means an end to mainstream economic cycles.
Here is an alternative:
http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna5.htm
"""
"It works like this. Let's say that you own a large piece of land. Say something the size of your state of California. This land contains natural resources. There is the sand on the beaches, from which you can make glass and silicon chips. There are iron, gold and aluminum ores in the soil, which you can mine, refine and form into any shape. There are oil and coal deposits under the ground. There is carbon, nitrogen, hydrogen and oxygen in the air and in the water. If you were to own California, all of these resources are 'free.' That is, since you own them, you don't have to pay anyone for them and they are there for the taking."
"If you have a source of energy and if you also own smart robots, the robots can turn these resources into anything you want for free. Robots can grow free food for you in the soil. Robots can manufacture things like steel, glass, fiberglass insulation and so on to create free buildings. Robots can weave fabric from cotton or synthetics and make free clothing. In the case of this catalog you are holding, nanoscale robots chain together glucose molecules to form laminar carbohydrates. As long as you have smart robots, along with energy and free resources, everything is free."
"""
I see the top post (my first) got modded down to zero, likely by pro-space people. Why are technologists often so blind to thinking through the implications of all the technology they are making? School is no doubt part of it. We need to use what we have to build a better world right here and right now, and then there will be lots of resources for space exploration and many other things. NASA and the space community have had a lot of good ideas already. Let's try using some of them to make the Earth a better place that works for everyone:
http://www.islandone.org/MMSG/aasm/
Wikipedia only took about US$2 million to get to critical mass. A technology library (would probably be much more than a website) might only cost US$100 million or so to get to such a critical mass.
http://groups.google.com/group/openmanufacturing/msg/72fde8fa2a33ded8
"""
So, to recap, there are a few paths to go down, ideally in parallel:
* fund a specific hardware project like Factor-e-farm, CubeSpawn, RepRap or whatever, hoping to push it along specifically (or maybe several);
* fund a specific simulation project like Second Life or some massive multi-player game that connects to open manufacturing, where people are creating 3D models that work in that world (or maybe several);
* fund new software tools that make open design easier for everyone;
* fund some sort of integration service, seen socially as the Wikipedia of open manufacturing, whatever that would look like whether it had a wiki aspect or not, like, Appropedia, SKDB, NIST's SLIM, my attempts at OSCOMAK/PointrelSemanticDesktop, or whatever, which defined a standard way to encode manufacturing recipes and licenses so everything interlinked and could be analyzed and visualized somehow (like to tease out the minimal self-replicating system that met some criterion);
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
Mod the parent down. It is pretty obvious that a Titan lander would have to have a carrier spacecraft for navigation, communications, targeting etc. All soft landers the US has ever launched have had them. To target a landing precisely such a carrier spacecraft would have to be in orbit about Saturn and approach Titan from the trailing side. It is not hard to imagine the spacecraft orbiting Titan. Furthermore, the fact Huygen's carrier signal was readily detected by radio telescopes on earth when the transmitter wasn't even designed for the task suggests that this is a non-issue.
an ill wind that blows no good
You have no idea what manufacturing actually is...
Those 3D printers are toys, for prototyping only and HIGHLY inefficient for mass manufacturing.
The biggest reason for joblessness in the western world in manufacturing is the rise of China, not automation.
Even if you have smart robots and a source of energy(in this case, a LOT of energy negating any and all green movements), you still need tools, lots and lots of tools. These are expensive and require a lot of capital.
Automation is what allows Western companies to be competitive with Chinese ones. However that only works to a point as the Chinese aren't stupid and do heavily make use of automation technologies themselves. The difference comes in the fact that they use 2-3x more people to do the same job someone in the West might do but they also pay them 3-4x less than an equivalent Western worker.
I'm sure we're a few generations away from it, but I can't wait until we can send robotic mining craft to Titan and mine the lakes and seas for raw materials to make plastics. By the time it's feasible to do this, I assume we'll have found some other source to answer our energy needs (and if we don't, we surely won't have the energy to do it anyway). But if we do run out of oil here, we'll have to get the raw materials to make plastics from somewhere. Titan seems as good a choice for that purpose as any.
God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
3D printers are just an example, and also BTW they can be cost effective in short run productions, which more and more manufacturing is, essentially printing on demand to reduce inventory costs. Any institution like NASA than can make plans decades ahead should be able to see how that will continue to improve. Also, there are a variety of other flexible manufacturing techniques and ways that costs are falling on that. Not all the loss of manufacturing employment in the USA is offshoring -- some is genuinely because of improved production efficiency, which will only continue. Tools continue to get better and more flexible, so the huge capital costs you refer to are less and less of an issue. Decades ago a computer cost millions of dollars and had less power than an electronic greeting card you can buy in the store for a couple dollars. Are you saying other industries simply will not follow, given all we know now and that we have the internet to continue to improve things? Especially with nanotech picking up?
As far as energy and materials, as long as we do nearly 100% green energy like from solar panels and nearly 100% recycling, the volume does not matter that much; and if it is not nearly 100% sustainable, then we will bury ourselves in waste and pollution eventually anyway. Here is a government program at NIST already in that direction -- I'd suggest giving them US$400 million rather than spend it right now on another cruise to nowhere.
"Sustainable and Lifecycle Information-based Manufacturing"
http://www.mel.nist.gov/programs/slim.htm
"""
The United States needs to prepare for a future where products are 100% recyclable, manufacturing itself has a zero net impact on the environment, and complete disassembly and disposal of a product at its end of life is routine. To document and monitor these changes, US industry will require key resources and methods that will enable it to measure sustainability along several dimensions (such as carbon foot print, energy accounting and recyclability of materials) allowing accurate assessment of status and progress. These resources and methods require identification of dimensions, associated measurements and classification of information relevant to sustainable product design and manufacturing. Such a base of information is critical to product designers and manufacturing engineers so that they can incorporate sustainability in their efforts. Hence, the primary challenge is to develop requirements, formal models, and validation methods for sustainability-based and lifecycle information-based manufacturing that support interoperability among tools and standards for design, analysis, simulation, and lifecycle assessment and information management.
"""
A 21st century issue: the irony of technologies of abundance in the hands of those still thinking in terms of scarcity.
I would say we should hurry-up with this Europa ice driller, because soon we will not have any testing places on Earth.