Court Orders Shutdown of H-1B Critics' Websites

theodp writes "Computerworld reports that a NJ Superior Court Judge ordered hosting firms to shut down three Web sites that oppose the H-1B visa program and seeks information about the identity of anonymous posters. GoDaddy, Network Solutions, Comcast and DiscountASP.Net were ordered to disable ITgrunt.com, Endh1b.com, and Guestworkerfraud.com. Facebook Inc. was also ordered to disable ITgrunt's Facebook page. The judge's order was made in response to a libel lawsuit filed by Apex Technology Group Inc., which is citing its copyright ownership as it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com, which drew critical comments on US and India websites."

Comments

hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

... this is odd play for the federation

getting myself a glass of iced tea

[jollyreaper]

I think I'll enjoy sitting back and watching the information suppression fail. I was not aware of this story until they tried to suppress it. :)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[lorenlal]

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[mpe]

Do people not understand pages are cached?

They understand that about as well as they understand that banning something is the best way to ensure that several million people who would otherwise not even have heard about it will become very interested in it :)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[horatio]

I'm honestly a little bit confused about jurisdiction.

On Dec. 23, Middlesex County Superior Court Judge James Hurley ordered firms that register domains...

How does a county judge in nowhere New Jersey have any jurisdiction over multiple companies that are not in his county? He can't order someone who lives in Bakersfield, CA arrested for knocking off a 7-11 in downtown LA. It has nothing to do with his jurisdiction.

DiscountASP.Net said it has disabled Endh1b.com after it received the order from the New Jersey Superior Court.

Is this the same court, or a state court of New Jersey? Regardless, the same question applies. GoDaddy's domain (whois) shows that they're in Arizona. How the hell does some random county or state judge in NJ have any authority over a company in Arizona? I'm not saying that APEX should have no recourse at all. They're entitled to be heard in a court of law, but shouldn't it have to be a court that actually has jurisdictional authority over the target (GoDaddy, DiscountASP, etc)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[SnapShot]

Here's one guy's description of the Apex Technology Group's H-1B agreement (from http://ripoffatapextgi.blogspot.com/ ):

This information is being mailed to you as a reply to your post regarding Apex Technology Group Inc (Sarvesh Kumar Dharayan) (www.apextgi.com)Please find the employment agreement letter http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10702214/agreement, which I received after I started working for Apex at a client location. None of the terms were part of the initial agreement between me and Apex Technology Group Inc.

I would like to take this oppurtunity to highlight several aspect's of the 9 page legal agreement which might be important for you. For example: 30 day termination notice or forget your last paycheck when you quit, If you join a company (including any level between you and Apex) then pay $35000 or face a law suit, $9000 for legal,training and guest services when you quit. $35000 if you quit in between a contract...etc

The document at http://www.docstoc.com/ is not available any more. I assume it was the victim of a takedown request.

Once again, I want to make it clear that I am in favor of technical immigration (both to and from the U.S., for that matter) but it's these kinds of alleged abuses that have made it clear that the H-1B program is fundamentally flawed.

Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[digitalchinky]

Guestworkerfraud.com works for me...

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[jmyers]

Just wait. Maybe they got the story listed on Slashdot as a way to shut them down.

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[ottothecow]

And it reads like a comedy/satire blog...but serious

"Even More Proof That Global Warming Is A Communist Front"
"Thai troops raid Hmong camp, deport 4,000 seeking asylum: What a concept - deporting 4000 people. Perhaps the U.S. needs to do the same to the FOUR MILLION India, Inc. racketeers running loose in the U.S. raping our economy."
"India, Inc. hacks Citigroup for millions"

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[netsavior]

Speech you do no agree with is the most important speech to protect; because it is the easiest to suppress.

Copyright BS

[Herkum01]

I fail to see how an employment agreement can be copyrighted.

Re:Copyright BS

[Anita Coney]

Or even if it could be copyrighted, how that copyright could trump anyone's first amendment rights to comment on a matter of national concern.

Re:Copyright BS

[dkleinsc]

The answer to your question: The Berne Convention, which affixes copyright on anything written down anywhere. Really. This comment is copywritten by yours truly thanks to that rule and that fun text at the bottom of the page, and as such if I were wealthy and a complete jerk I could sue someone for infringement if someone decided to plagiarize me.

So now it's becoming increasingly common to suppress the publication of a bad contract via copyright rather than via an non-disclosure clause. Among other things, asserting copyright gives the plaintiff all the DMCA suppression capabilities that a contract violation does not.

what is defamatory about "common knowledge"?

[peter303]

Everyone knows much of he H-1B program is abused by employers, temp companies, and many of the workers themselves. "Go away. Nothing to see here."

H-1B is a Fraud

[Anonymous Coward]

How can we be so short of American programmers and other IT people that we need to import foreigners in the middle of this awful recession?

We aren't. It's fraud. It's meant to reduce your salary.

It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Svartalf]

1) The recession is partly DUE to this practice.

2) It's not that the people won't work- it's that it's not being offered in the first place and they're claiming a "shortage" of workers (even though there's not...) and getting the H1B's in here

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[omnichad]

Except when the quality declines, and is considered acceptable because it saves so much money. The world is full of copy-and-paste programmers, and call centers with thick accents and no grasp of common English. And Americans are the worst to trust with voting with their dollars. The vast majority pick the cheapest every time, with no regard to quality.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[GooberToo]

I'll bite.

You bit the wrong place and for entirely the wrong reasons. Its all about the math. For one good American coder you can higher three to five shitty Indian coders. In the mind of a CEO that means he can gut his coders and hire an army of shitty coders while banking on the chance that in an army of shitty coders perhaps one or two may actually be worth their third world rate. This in turn provides leverage to reduce wages of American coders.

Then, at some later time, the CEO is able to claim he's saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions for the company in labor which then allows him to get both a salary increase and/or additional perks and benefits.

Regardless of what your personal take on this is, this is the general approach and the reasons they do so.

To make this all work, they further scam the system by putting out reqs for American programmers who must have every skill in every language and usually require more experience longer than the given technology exists. And in exchange for the programmer who doesn't not exist anywhere, they'll pay them just below fair market rate; which they have been driving down by illegal H1B hires. They then claim they are unable to fill the unobtainable position and therefore are justified in continuing their H1B hiring practice.

In short, what I detail is the way the majority of large companies operate. If you want to put your head in the sad to feel better and rampant illegal and abusive practices which is directly driving salaries down, unemployment up, and fewer grads to follow, by all means, remain ignorant.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Capt James McCarthy]

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

I agree with this in theory. However, it's not the fact that there are a bunch of "Lazy Americans" (which there are plenty of hard working Americans BTW) who want their cake and be able to eat it too, it's the fact that the only commodity being banked on by companies are how to reduce salaries for the 97% of their worker base while the "Big C's" (CEO, CIO, CTO, CFO, etc..) keep their bonus' going up. It's about disparaging differences. I don't mind someone who has built a company up to keep a lions share, however, people with a backbone understand that without hardworking people in the company throughout the ranks, they would be no where and have no company. You are either Pimping or being Pimped now days.

Why doesn't any of this "globalization" affect health care? Where are my lower premiums or cost of health care when globalization is supposed to lower prices while raising service? I mean if you say it works for IT why not health care? Or how about food prices, they too are still going up even though there are many foods imported from all over the world. I guess your argument would be that they would be even higher if everything was left to grow only in the U.S. and sold in the U.S.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Maxo-Texas]

I suspect you are comparing apples to oranges here.

Are you saying that 800,000 jobs requiring at least a bachelor's degree and/or years of highly technical experience were created?

There is a reason that companies exist to teach corporations how to phrase their jobs needed ads so that no one in the united states qualifies (so they can legally import a less expensive worker who will gladly work 60+ hours a week without complaint). These companies wouldn't exist if large corporations didn't save money net of the cost of paying them.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[powerslave12r]

You have made numerous sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your post. 1. Far from ALL Indian coders are "shitty". Look at the many inventions and innovations attributed to Indians in American companies. Google for names. 2. The salary is an exaggeration. H1B requires the companies to pay as much to an H1B hire as to an American citizen with the same experience/profile. 3. If the companies scam by listing out ridiculous requirements for job positions, don't they apply to Indians as well? Are you suggesting Indians are generally more skilled than Americans? If you are, then I can see you have explained why an H1B hire could be of more value than an American. And not only are you racist, you're ignorant. Do you know how many Indians graduate from American Universities with Masters/PhDs? Those are a huge chunk of H1B holders. Have a nice day.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Znork]

Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy.

If done under the same rules.

you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely

Ah, but see, labour doesn't move freely, most labour is stuck where it is. The current state of affairs enables some brilliant exploitations of that fact; western labour is kept stuck in high-cost systems, exacting as much revenue as possible through means such as 'intellectual property' and similar systems that prevent the price reductions from reaching the market as far as possible, making the western labour utterly uncompetitive, while using what amounts to negative interest rates to further exact revenue and prevent price collapse as they move deep into debt.

The combination of low-cost parts and high-price parts of the global system and the regulations keeping them separate and competition tightly limited to what is 'approved' makes the exacting of wealth by middle men exceedingly simple, and possible to a much further extent than earlier.

and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality

It's rather hard to offer an apple to apple comparison in a global system where it's hard to trust even the currencies the trade is done in.

If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Well, unless it's movies. Or books. Or music. Or medicine. Or software or hardware or fashion or shoes or sports gear or...

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[infinite9]

You have made numerous sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your post.

1. Far from ALL Indian coders are "shitty". Look at the many inventions and innovations attributed to Indians in American companies. Google for names.

To be fair, certainly not all. But in my experience, a significant majority are sub-par.

2. The salary is an exaggeration. H1B requires the companies to pay as much to an H1B hire as to an American citizen with the same experience/profile.

This is the standard propaganda. The truth is that in the vast majority of cases, H1Bs are much cheaper. Why else would a company front the $2000+ it takes to host a single H1B? Of course, the kicker there is "with the same experience/profile". In my experience, the replacement H1B is nowhere near as qualified, on paper as well. They're just cheaper. The indentured servitude angle is also very attractive to the employer. You can treat them like crap and they won't leave because they can't. It does wonders for a worker's "attitude".

3. If the companies scam by listing out ridiculous requirements for job positions, don't they apply to Indians as well?

No. The requirement are conveniently changed later. Or the H1Bs resume is deliberately falsified to turn them into a match. Or the employer "throws up its hands" and works out a deal with someone like TCS to hire consultants only from them. Throw in an artificial rule like no consultants allows to work there for more than a year and you end up with a little invasion.

Are you suggesting Indians are generally more skilled than Americans? If you are, then I can see you have explained why an H1B hire could be of more value than an American.

An individual Indian could easily be more skilled than an individual American. And many highly skilled people are coming here on H1B visa. In my opinion, they deserve to be here (when the economy is good). But no immigrant, no matter how qualified should ever be allowed to replace an American (of any descent) who is already established here.

But as a group, the Indians I've seen here, when a company has clearly abused the H1B program, have been far less qualified than the people they replaced.

And not only are you racist, you're ignorant. Do you know how many Indians graduate from American Universities with Masters/PhDs? Those are a huge chunk of H1B holders.

It's convenient to use the examples of when the system has worked as intended to explain away the vast abuse and injustice taking place in our country. It's convenient to call us racist when we complain and take steps to protect the livelihoods of the people who are already here. This argument always makes me think about taking an IT job in India. Oh that's right, I can't. I would never be issued a work visa for an IT job because they protect their labor pool like we should be. But they're not racist.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Surt]

The problem is you didn't raise the salary to a level competitive with contracting. If you did so, the contractors would be willing to make the employment commitment. Instead, you got a foreigner to take a job that could be done by an American if you were willing to pay the higher salary.

Thus, h1b drove down american IT salaries, and YOU are the proof.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Helpadingoatemybaby]

What you have written is false. H1B Visa holders almost to a man get paid less than regular salaried employees. In fact, law firms have seminars to educate management on how to rig the system to hire H1B employees, how to advertise jobs in areas where they won't get applicants, and how to advertise so that they can obtain green cards for foreign employees. Here's one such seminar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[pclminion]

What... the... hell? Two hours prior to RELEASE, you were BUILDING the product? Wow, you allocated what, an hour, for release testing? Or you just kinda skip that part? You don't freeze your code base months or weeks prior to release? You don't have a revision control system that allows you to roll back a bonehead change? Yes, there certainly is some incompetence at your company, but it's not the Indian.

This is a job for WikiLeaks!

[ThreeGigs]

it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com

Seriously, the document in question should have been uploaded to WikiLeaks.
Anyone have a copy or linkage? I can't find it.

Re:This is a job for WikiLeaks!

[Anonymous Coward]

related post on itgrunt from google cache ... I would like to take this oppurtunity to highlight several aspect''s of the 9 page legal agreement which might be important for you. For example: 30 day termination notice or forget your last paycheck when you quit, If you join a company (including any level between you and Apex) then pay $35000 or face a law suit, $9000 for legal,training and guest services when you quit. $35000 if you quit in between a contract...etc. The legalities of the agreement are convoluted,complex and can/will be used against you if you displease Apex technology Group Inc. So once you sign that document you are at the mercy of the employer and much worse than a bonded labour in India. Apart from above, employees don''t receive their salary at the end of the month. It is usually received @ a random date in the following month, provided you are lucky. Else you would have to chase HR/Accounting to get your pay check. This process helps Apex technology group inc to hold back pay incase you choose to accept employment at another location. The most important aspect of your transaction''s with Apex Technology Group Inc is that they tell you one thing before you transfer your H1B to their consulting firm and then later do not stick to what they say(aka lies & cheating). In other words once you file/transfer your H1B to them you more or less become their slave and you will get entangled in thier web of lies and legal documents...

Holy indentured servitude Batman!

Sold justice.

[unity100]

this is what happens in a cutthroat, unregulated capitalist system. rich can buy justice, whereas individuals can buy shit. enjoy.

First thoguht on RTFA

[DragonFodder]

fascism
/fæzm/ Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm]

–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly
suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive
nationalism and often racism.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

First amendment

[jbolden]

How is this not clear cut first amendment? A collection of websites expresses a political opinion. A potentially tort-able act, distributing a copyrighted document occurred. That doesn't give the courts the right to issue a blanket cease publication order.

Assuming the Computer World story is correct Judge James Hurley should be removed from the bench. I want to post this here for comment, since I live in NJ and thus have a state Senator that has oversight.

Re:First amendment

[MobyDisk]

Yeah, but the injunction was against the entire site, not merely the libelous statements. Would it be fair to shut down all of Slashdot because of one libelous post? Also, if this is a copyright issue, then a DMCA notice is sufficient to have the document removed. No need to take down the entire site.

Re:First amendment

[Svartalf]

It's not just First Amendment violations we're talking about here.

The order impacts stuff completely out of his jurisdiction. Unfortunately, for the Judge, he's just issued an order that has National and International ramifications and at least one of the companies in question happens to be based in Scottsdale, Arizona (GoDaddy...).

HOW can a state judge issue such orders? This is actually quite outside of his jurisdiction as best as I can tell.

Make them citizens already.

[tjstork]

H1-B is meant to bring Indians into the USA and have them by the short hairs. I rather think that if an employer wants to bring someone onboard to the USA, they can, and should, without restriction, but, once you work in the USA, and pay taxes for six months, you should be made a citizen already.

Taxation without representation is not fair.

I thought we revolted from GB over that very issue, and it is despicable that we even tolerate this modern form of indentured servitude.

Copyright Infringement and Libel

[Adrian Lopez]

They're suing for copyright infringement as well as libel? Please tell me there's something more to the libel allegations than just the posting of the contract. Otherwise, they're either suing for libel over the posting of a legitimate document or suing for copyright infringement over a document they do not own.

Good way to end this BS

[causality]

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

I agree there was no reason to take down the entire domains. This really seems like it's becoming a standard tactic: put conditions into a legally binding contract, and then cry "copyright violation" when the contract is posted in public to the embarassment of its authors. An employment agreement is generally such a contract.

I propose a change to the law along these lines: your contract may be legally binding and public-domain, or it may be non-binding and copyrightable. You are, after all, asking a government agency (a public servant) such as a court of law to enforce it for you.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[jbolden]

Excellent policy. Makes sense, contracts should be public documents in all cases.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[mea37]

It only takes a review of the purpose of copyright to see that the claim of copyright over an employment agreement should be thrown out. Whether the law itself is well-enough written to allow for that is another matter.

OTOH, contracts can and routinely do include clauses to the effect that you cannot disclose the terms of the contract. Whether an employment agreement is a contract at best varies by state, but I'm aware of no reason they couldn't contain confidentiality agreements regardless.

Of course, the protection for that isn't as strong as copyright. And in the end, it doesn't matter; if I know that a company isn't proud of its employment agreement such that they want it kept secret, then I'm thinking twice about subjecting myself to said agreement.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[dcollins]

"OTOH, contracts can and routinely do include clauses to the effect that you cannot disclose the terms of the contract. Whether an employment agreement is a contract at best varies by state, but I'm aware of no reason they couldn't contain confidentiality agreements regardless."

Great, but of course not binding on any 3rd parties.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Artifakt]

Apparently, he is claiming that copyright law should override contract law, and he's willing to urge suicide on people to make his point. Mickey, when somebody proudly announces that all the baby seals should be beaten to death with the bodies of the dead baby polar bears, they are a troll. Please don't feed the trolls.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Maxo-Texas]

You really want expert "X" badly so you pay them $150k AND give them 6 weeks vacation to get them but make it a secret to preserve morale of your other workers (making $90k and getting the usual 2 weeks, then 3 at 5 years) and to prevent other desirable employees from requesting the same treatment.

For example, I had a free week of vacation but wasn't to share that information with other employees.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[drsquare]

DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!!

But seriously, you want to turn the USA into an isolated state like North Korea just so you don't have to compete for employment. And you haven't thought it through very well: protectionism works both ways. Cut yourself off from the world, and US companies won't be able to outsource any of their products. They'll have no option but to move their entire operations outside of the US, then you won't have any jobs at all.

If it were me, I'd wait 2 weeks, then

[mandark1967]

I'd tell the court that I called in the order to take the site down to my out-sourced IT Support Center and I am still on hold...

". . . outstanding reputation . . ."

[base3]

Apex had an outstanding reputation in the information technology field . . .

There, fixed that for you.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[MickyTheIdiot]

Executive Management are not going to move overseas. Executive Management are the people (in the U.S. anyway) that are making money off of outsourcing. They are making a killing off of it and they don't want to be Chinese wage slaves anymore than any of us do.

The argument for outsourcing is that it allows everyone over here to do "more important jobs," i.e. Management. The flaw in this argument is that not everyone can be Managers. Some of us aren't cut out for it and there are always going to be those not smart enough for it.

What are you going to do with the doers if all the "menial" work is outsourced? We better be thinking of answers. Some of us can create small businesses, but not everyone.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[Anonymous Coward]

, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

Stop being ignorant. We *need* the worlds most talented engineers to come to the US legally, work here and pay taxes. If anything, we probably need stricter hiring practices. If Americans hire crappy engineers, it isn't the engineer who is at fault for trying. Also, If you think you're so better than the Indian H1-B you should have no problem convincing any employer to give you a job. I have never seen a (US citizen) programmer who is proficient unable to get a job. If you're run of the mill average, as I suspect most of these sites' members are, then tough shit.

Btw, I'm pretty sure Linus Torvalds came here on an H1-B Visa ;)

Re:copyright? confidential terms?

[mea37]

Don't know why I'm responding to an AC, but ok...

I don't know what you mean trying to distinguish copyright from DMCA. DMCA is a particular batch of revisions to the copyright law. To pursue the matter under DMCA means exactly the same thing in the US as to pursue the matter under copyright.

If you would bother to RTFA, you would see that they are asserting copyright. TFA doesn't say whether they formally issued a DMCA takedown notice (as they would to properly suppress distribution of copyrighted material); my guess is that they did not. A DMCA takedown notice would not have resulted in the entire domain being shut down in any case. That was a separate matter related to the libel assertions.

It appears the copyright assertion is being used as grounds to find the identity of the person who posted the material - as in, "I want to know who did this so I can sue them".

Your comments on trade secrets, and your thoughts on which IP laws would cover contracts, have nothing to do with anything, so I assume you're just using them to try to sound smart in spite of being unable to discern that there is more than one legal issue being discussed in the article.

Let them know what you think

[assertation]

I remember a few months ago some local government tried to require job applicants to turn over their Facebook and other such similar logins. Obscure situation.....until it became the buzz in the blogosphere. The resulting public embarrassment and censure got the local government to scrap that policy.

To that end here is the URL for the contact page of Apex:
http://www.apextgi.com/contactus.php

Let them know what you think.

Anyone have the contact information for the judge or the relevant agency of the NJ state government?

Re:Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc.,

[lastchance_000]

Nope, just a bad URL. Correct link

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[Svartalf]

Considering that it was overall cheaper for Dell to slowly move their Customer Support operations to places like Oklahoma City instead of India, there should be a hint in that for all of you that keep spouting this BS line... :D