Court Orders Shutdown of H-1B Critics' Websites

theodp writes "Computerworld reports that a NJ Superior Court Judge ordered hosting firms to shut down three Web sites that oppose the H-1B visa program and seeks information about the identity of anonymous posters. GoDaddy, Network Solutions, Comcast and DiscountASP.Net were ordered to disable ITgrunt.com, Endh1b.com, and Guestworkerfraud.com. Facebook Inc. was also ordered to disable ITgrunt's Facebook page. The judge's order was made in response to a libel lawsuit filed by Apex Technology Group Inc., which is citing its copyright ownership as it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com, which drew critical comments on US and India websites."

Comments

hmmm

[Anonymous Coward]

... this is odd play for the federation

getting myself a glass of iced tea

[jollyreaper]

I think I'll enjoy sitting back and watching the information suppression fail. I was not aware of this story until they tried to suppress it. :)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[lorenlal]

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[TooMuchToDo]

This sounds like a job for Wikileaks to host.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[mpe]

Do people not understand pages are cached?

They understand that about as well as they understand that banning something is the best way to ensure that several million people who would otherwise not even have heard about it will become very interested in it :)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[horatio]

I'm honestly a little bit confused about jurisdiction.

On Dec. 23, Middlesex County Superior Court Judge James Hurley ordered firms that register domains...

How does a county judge in nowhere New Jersey have any jurisdiction over multiple companies that are not in his county? He can't order someone who lives in Bakersfield, CA arrested for knocking off a 7-11 in downtown LA. It has nothing to do with his jurisdiction.

DiscountASP.Net said it has disabled Endh1b.com after it received the order from the New Jersey Superior Court.

Is this the same court, or a state court of New Jersey? Regardless, the same question applies. GoDaddy's domain (whois) shows that they're in Arizona. How the hell does some random county or state judge in NJ have any authority over a company in Arizona? I'm not saying that APEX should have no recourse at all. They're entitled to be heard in a court of law, but shouldn't it have to be a court that actually has jurisdictional authority over the target (GoDaddy, DiscountASP, etc)

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[SnapShot]

Here's one guy's description of the Apex Technology Group's H-1B agreement (from http://ripoffatapextgi.blogspot.com/ ):

This information is being mailed to you as a reply to your post regarding Apex Technology Group Inc (Sarvesh Kumar Dharayan) (www.apextgi.com)Please find the employment agreement letter http://www.docstoc.com/docs/10702214/agreement, which I received after I started working for Apex at a client location. None of the terms were part of the initial agreement between me and Apex Technology Group Inc.

I would like to take this oppurtunity to highlight several aspect's of the 9 page legal agreement which might be important for you. For example: 30 day termination notice or forget your last paycheck when you quit, If you join a company (including any level between you and Apex) then pay $35000 or face a law suit, $9000 for legal,training and guest services when you quit. $35000 if you quit in between a contract...etc

The document at http://www.docstoc.com/ is not available any more. I assume it was the victim of a takedown request.

Once again, I want to make it clear that I am in favor of technical immigration (both to and from the U.S., for that matter) but it's these kinds of alleged abuses that have made it clear that the H-1B program is fundamentally flawed.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[inviolet]

I thought the same thing, but Wikileaks is currently down. They say they will be back when they've "gotten enough donations". what b/s

Wrong, they said they've suspended operations until January 6th, in order to poke us for donations. The actual quote is "To concentrate on raising the funds necessary to keep us alive into 2010, we have very reluctantly suspended all other operations, until Jan 6.".

You may repent for your assholery by donating $10 to wikileaks right now. I just now donated $10 to cover your sins in case you also count free-riding among your glittering social skills.

Re:getting myself a glass of iced tea

[Hurricane78]

How does a county judge in nowhere New Jersey have any jurisdiction over multiple companies that are not in his county?

Simple: All the rules that you think exist, are actually only as meaningful, as they are supported by the ones in power. We still live in a society ruled by the law of the jungle. We just don’t know it, because the power is so remote and invisible.
But in the end, if you make up your own rules, and are the one in power, of it’s something the ones in power like, they sill are the law of the land.

That’s why Cheney can shoot a man in the face, and get away with it. Simple as that.

Now all you have to do, is find the ones in power, and gain power over them. E.g. by doing something that makes them buy into your reality. That’s why your biggest enemy should be treated like your closest friend. He has to blindly trust and believe you.
Why do you think I got so interested in psychology and social engineering. It’s the hacking of the 21st century. ^^

Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[digitalchinky]

Guestworkerfraud.com works for me...

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[jmyers]

Just wait. Maybe they got the story listed on Slashdot as a way to shut them down.

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[ottothecow]

And it reads like a comedy/satire blog...but serious

"Even More Proof That Global Warming Is A Communist Front"
"Thai troops raid Hmong camp, deport 4,000 seeking asylum: What a concept - deporting 4000 people. Perhaps the U.S. needs to do the same to the FOUR MILLION India, Inc. racketeers running loose in the U.S. raping our economy."
"India, Inc. hacks Citigroup for millions"

Re:Doesn't look like they got all of them.

[netsavior]

Speech you do no agree with is the most important speech to protect; because it is the easiest to suppress.

Copyright BS

[Herkum01]

I fail to see how an employment agreement can be copyrighted.

Re:Copyright BS

[Anita Coney]

Or even if it could be copyrighted, how that copyright could trump anyone's first amendment rights to comment on a matter of national concern.

Re:Copyright BS

[dkleinsc]

The answer to your question: The Berne Convention, which affixes copyright on anything written down anywhere. Really. This comment is copywritten by yours truly thanks to that rule and that fun text at the bottom of the page, and as such if I were wealthy and a complete jerk I could sue someone for infringement if someone decided to plagiarize me.

So now it's becoming increasingly common to suppress the publication of a bad contract via copyright rather than via an non-disclosure clause. Among other things, asserting copyright gives the plaintiff all the DMCA suppression capabilities that a contract violation does not.

what is defamatory about "common knowledge"?

[peter303]

Everyone knows much of he H-1B program is abused by employers, temp companies, and many of the workers themselves. "Go away. Nothing to see here."

H-1B is a Fraud

[Anonymous Coward]

How can we be so short of American programmers and other IT people that we need to import foreigners in the middle of this awful recession?

We aren't. It's fraud. It's meant to reduce your salary.

It's the kind of fraud that Indians have ingrained in to their culture and Americans seem to get better at every day.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Svartalf]

1) The recession is partly DUE to this practice.

2) It's not that the people won't work- it's that it's not being offered in the first place and they're claiming a "shortage" of workers (even though there's not...) and getting the H1B's in here

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Heartz]

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Anonymous Coward]

The employees still pay taxes on their income and property, still pay for products, food and maybe rent. All going straight back into the ecomony. You can't blame a world economic collapse on a handful of imported programmers. You are xenophobic. Stop blaming everyone except locals for what has been corrupt financing for several years, lead by the US.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[omnichad]

Except when the quality declines, and is considered acceptable because it saves so much money. The world is full of copy-and-paste programmers, and call centers with thick accents and no grasp of common English. And Americans are the worst to trust with voting with their dollars. The vast majority pick the cheapest every time, with no regard to quality.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[pdabbadabba]

Well, maybe it does reduce your salary, but I doubt that's the point. Rather, I imagine it's to get bright, foreign-educated workers to put down roots in the US so that we get to reap the economic benefits of the educational systems of their home countries, thus causing a brain drain into the US. Only really works if the US has a much higher standard of living though...

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[GooberToo]

I'll bite.

You bit the wrong place and for entirely the wrong reasons. Its all about the math. For one good American coder you can higher three to five shitty Indian coders. In the mind of a CEO that means he can gut his coders and hire an army of shitty coders while banking on the chance that in an army of shitty coders perhaps one or two may actually be worth their third world rate. This in turn provides leverage to reduce wages of American coders.

Then, at some later time, the CEO is able to claim he's saved hundreds of thousands, if not millions for the company in labor which then allows him to get both a salary increase and/or additional perks and benefits.

Regardless of what your personal take on this is, this is the general approach and the reasons they do so.

To make this all work, they further scam the system by putting out reqs for American programmers who must have every skill in every language and usually require more experience longer than the given technology exists. And in exchange for the programmer who doesn't not exist anywhere, they'll pay them just below fair market rate; which they have been driving down by illegal H1B hires. They then claim they are unable to fill the unobtainable position and therefore are justified in continuing their H1B hiring practice.

In short, what I detail is the way the majority of large companies operate. If you want to put your head in the sad to feel better and rampant illegal and abusive practices which is directly driving salaries down, unemployment up, and fewer grads to follow, by all means, remain ignorant.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Capt James McCarthy]

If somebody can offer a service at a cheaper more efficient price, why not? All this humbug about salaries that one "deserves" to get is purely protectionist and doesn't benefit anybody. Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy. If you're peddling global free trade, you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely and capitalism dictates that the person who can do it cheaper and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality will win. It's pure economics. If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

I agree with this in theory. However, it's not the fact that there are a bunch of "Lazy Americans" (which there are plenty of hard working Americans BTW) who want their cake and be able to eat it too, it's the fact that the only commodity being banked on by companies are how to reduce salaries for the 97% of their worker base while the "Big C's" (CEO, CIO, CTO, CFO, etc..) keep their bonus' going up. It's about disparaging differences. I don't mind someone who has built a company up to keep a lions share, however, people with a backbone understand that without hardworking people in the company throughout the ranks, they would be no where and have no company. You are either Pimping or being Pimped now days.

Why doesn't any of this "globalization" affect health care? Where are my lower premiums or cost of health care when globalization is supposed to lower prices while raising service? I mean if you say it works for IT why not health care? Or how about food prices, they too are still going up even though there are many foods imported from all over the world. I guess your argument would be that they would be even higher if everything was left to grow only in the U.S. and sold in the U.S.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Maxo-Texas]

I suspect you are comparing apples to oranges here.

Are you saying that 800,000 jobs requiring at least a bachelor's degree and/or years of highly technical experience were created?

There is a reason that companies exist to teach corporations how to phrase their jobs needed ads so that no one in the united states qualifies (so they can legally import a less expensive worker who will gladly work 60+ hours a week without complaint). These companies wouldn't exist if large corporations didn't save money net of the cost of paying them.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[ShatteredArm]

1) The recession is partly DUE to this practice.

Wrong. The recession happened because of a misallocation of resources due, in part, to excessive leveraging. It has absolutely zero to do with whence workers originate.

2) It's not that the people won't work- it's that it's not being offered in the first place and they're claiming a "shortage" of workers (even though there's not...) and getting the H1B's in here

If you're looking for workers with a specific skill set, it's very easy to find a shortage. And if you're looking for workers whom you don't want to pay an outrageous amount just to do what amounts to menial labor, it's very easy to find a shortage.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[dgatwood]

Usually they whine because "slightly outside of their comfort zone" in management-speak translates "boss asked me to solve the halting problem today" in geek-speak.

In my experience, programmers usually act that way because you've asked them to do something that they're not entirely convinced is possible, much less feasible, and they're dragging their heels because they aren't assertive enough to call you a moron to your face.

That said, there are people who refuse to do anything outside their job description. Usually, this attitude happens in union shops. If they see enough people acting that way around them, they're going to start acting the same way.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[powerslave12r]

You have made numerous sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your post. 1. Far from ALL Indian coders are "shitty". Look at the many inventions and innovations attributed to Indians in American companies. Google for names. 2. The salary is an exaggeration. H1B requires the companies to pay as much to an H1B hire as to an American citizen with the same experience/profile. 3. If the companies scam by listing out ridiculous requirements for job positions, don't they apply to Indians as well? Are you suggesting Indians are generally more skilled than Americans? If you are, then I can see you have explained why an H1B hire could be of more value than an American. And not only are you racist, you're ignorant. Do you know how many Indians graduate from American Universities with Masters/PhDs? Those are a huge chunk of H1B holders. Have a nice day.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[tibman]

I agree with you. But (sorry) that only works if everyone is playing in the same sandbox. If the cost of living and doing business in the US is higher than Mexico (for example) then a company would save a lot of money moving the actual factories to Mexico and continue to sell to the US. The new factory doesn't have to restrict it's byproducts and emmissions as much as in the US and the local population has a lower standard of living. But the price of the product to Americans does not go down, right? So Americans are making less money and still paying for the higher cost of living.

The effect is slowly lowering the quality of life for Americans and slightly raising it for the local factory workers (and the increased profit does not go to the workers, but to the company owners). While this is probably a good thing for the world at large, it is a draining effect on the US.

Nobody should want to equalize the quality of living by decreasing it anywhere.. but to raise up the lower levels. If the company that moved it's factory decreased the cost of it's product to align with the decrease of costs to make it, both Mexico and the US quality of life gets better or remains the same. Not to mention Mexico could actually purchase the product instead of the company selling it at higher than local quality-of-life prices.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[spiffmastercow]

You are confusing Indian coders working in India who receive outsourced jobs from the US, with Indian coders that are brought to the US on H-1B visas. Correct me if I'm wrong, but it is generally understood that many, many Indian coders working in the US are of a much, much higher quality than the recipients of outsourcing working in India.

I'll correct you, then. Every Indian programmer I've worked with was completely incompetant, and some actually were harmful, like the guy whose only contribution to a project was breaking the build 2 hours before a major release. I'm sure there are good Indian programmers out there... But the good ones aren't going to work for the salaries they want to pay them.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[tibman]

There are some great US Army programs to become a US citizen. Any foreigner can sign up and fight for America and earn their citizenship in the process. One of the programs i know of is MAVNI, mostly for people who know languages other than english and people who know medicine.

http://www.army.com/enlist/mavni.html
http://www.goarmy.com/info/mavni
http://www.defense.gov/news/mavni-fact-sheet.pdf

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Red Flayer]

Just to add to your point... there is a minimum salary by law for workers on H1B. We pay my company's H1B employees a minimum of US 60,000 a year... and most receive much more than that.

The truth is, we can't find qualified Americans for the positions in question. We want employees, not contractors, from some positions (for a variety of reasons...) and almost all Americans with one of the skillsets we require work only on contract basis.

So we can either hire American contractors, which some of our clients do not want, or we can hire Indian/Eastern European/Chinese workers on H1B visas as employees.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[powerslave12r]

Right, and so parent and you're suggesting there are no shitty American coders?

Two things - there's shitty programmers that are Indian or American, irrespective of their nationality. Why would a company pay more money for processing their H1B visa unless they got something out of those people?

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Znork]

Offering cheaper overall inputs provide better value for all Americans to enjoy.

If done under the same rules.

you've got to be willing to accept that labour needs to move freely

Ah, but see, labour doesn't move freely, most labour is stuck where it is. The current state of affairs enables some brilliant exploitations of that fact; western labour is kept stuck in high-cost systems, exacting as much revenue as possible through means such as 'intellectual property' and similar systems that prevent the price reductions from reaching the market as far as possible, making the western labour utterly uncompetitive, while using what amounts to negative interest rates to further exact revenue and prevent price collapse as they move deep into debt.

The combination of low-cost parts and high-price parts of the global system and the regulations keeping them separate and competition tightly limited to what is 'approved' makes the exacting of wealth by middle men exceedingly simple, and possible to a much further extent than earlier.

and offers an apple to apple comparison of quality

It's rather hard to offer an apple to apple comparison in a global system where it's hard to trust even the currencies the trade is done in.

If somebody can do something cheaper than you can, and is willing to do it, then there is nothing wrong with it.

Well, unless it's movies. Or books. Or music. Or medicine. Or software or hardware or fashion or shoes or sports gear or...

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Artifakt]

So, if companies are required to apply the same exaggerated requirements for skill-sets after they can't fill the job with US workers, and apply for the H1B process, then there's no reason to exaggerate. Ergo, listings such as "14 years experience with .Net 2.0 environment running on Core 2 quad processors" shouldn't exist (except as the result of very occasional typos). Yet, they do, in abundance.
      Analogy: Fox news has labeled 18 republicans caught in affairs, homosexual encounters, or criminal acts as democrats. They have never made the same mistake in reverse. If you wanted to take the position that Fox wasn't motivated to do this deliberately, shouldn't the burden of proof fall to you to show how such a statistically one sided result could be caused by random typos, or otherwise not be proof of deliberate intent?
      You somehow managed to build your point three out of ignoring that fact (unless. by "more skilled" you really meant 'have invented time machines to somehow acquire the necessary skills').
Point 2, on salaries, becomes unsupportable if your point 3 is wrong. If the job requirements can change drastically during the process of 'proving' an H1B is needed, then the government requirement has no teeth. So, you'd have to put up some actual figures about pay for broader classes of programmers rather than specific jobs. You certainly could gather figures and then make the claim that those '30% salaries' are an infrequent anomaly, but the other side has already gathered figures and made the claim that programmer wages have been depressed, as a whole, compared to other skilled professions. If the flat salaries situation exists, and low salaries in H1B positions exist, don't you have some proving to do? Sounds like you need to not only show that the mechanisms by which hiring at below prevailing rates affects related wages wouldn't be enough to depress wages in the broader industry as much as they allegedly have - you'd need to suggest some other causes.
      I understand how you must feel about the characterizations to which you are responding. Unfortunately, you've made several unsupported claims, and given your very first sentence, you've done harm to your cause.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[infinite9]

You have made numerous sweeping generalizations and exaggerations in your post.

1. Far from ALL Indian coders are "shitty". Look at the many inventions and innovations attributed to Indians in American companies. Google for names.

To be fair, certainly not all. But in my experience, a significant majority are sub-par.

2. The salary is an exaggeration. H1B requires the companies to pay as much to an H1B hire as to an American citizen with the same experience/profile.

This is the standard propaganda. The truth is that in the vast majority of cases, H1Bs are much cheaper. Why else would a company front the $2000+ it takes to host a single H1B? Of course, the kicker there is "with the same experience/profile". In my experience, the replacement H1B is nowhere near as qualified, on paper as well. They're just cheaper. The indentured servitude angle is also very attractive to the employer. You can treat them like crap and they won't leave because they can't. It does wonders for a worker's "attitude".

3. If the companies scam by listing out ridiculous requirements for job positions, don't they apply to Indians as well?

No. The requirement are conveniently changed later. Or the H1Bs resume is deliberately falsified to turn them into a match. Or the employer "throws up its hands" and works out a deal with someone like TCS to hire consultants only from them. Throw in an artificial rule like no consultants allows to work there for more than a year and you end up with a little invasion.

Are you suggesting Indians are generally more skilled than Americans? If you are, then I can see you have explained why an H1B hire could be of more value than an American.

An individual Indian could easily be more skilled than an individual American. And many highly skilled people are coming here on H1B visa. In my opinion, they deserve to be here (when the economy is good). But no immigrant, no matter how qualified should ever be allowed to replace an American (of any descent) who is already established here.

But as a group, the Indians I've seen here, when a company has clearly abused the H1B program, have been far less qualified than the people they replaced.

And not only are you racist, you're ignorant. Do you know how many Indians graduate from American Universities with Masters/PhDs? Those are a huge chunk of H1B holders.

It's convenient to use the examples of when the system has worked as intended to explain away the vast abuse and injustice taking place in our country. It's convenient to call us racist when we complain and take steps to protect the livelihoods of the people who are already here. This argument always makes me think about taking an IT job in India. Oh that's right, I can't. I would never be issued a work visa for an IT job because they protect their labor pool like we should be. But they're not racist.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Surt]

The problem is you didn't raise the salary to a level competitive with contracting. If you did so, the contractors would be willing to make the employment commitment. Instead, you got a foreigner to take a job that could be done by an American if you were willing to pay the higher salary.

Thus, h1b drove down american IT salaries, and YOU are the proof.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[Helpadingoatemybaby]

What you have written is false. H1B Visa holders almost to a man get paid less than regular salaried employees. In fact, law firms have seminars to educate management on how to rig the system to hire H1B employees, how to advertise jobs in areas where they won't get applicants, and how to advertise so that they can obtain green cards for foreign employees. Here's one such seminar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[j33px0r]

My company hired me for a position that was vacant for more than 6-8 months because they couldn't find anyone qualified enough - irrespective of nationality. I've spoken with the HR and my immediate senior and they wouldn't have hired me, for MORE than what they were willing to pay anyone else to do the job.

I don't want to stereotype Indians but all of the ones that I've worked with are extremely talented. I have no doubt that you are worth your salt and then some. Americans that are unable to locate a job take offense at foreigners coming over and doing work that they are capable of doing, or so they think. The arguments that are made against the outsourcing of jobs are, for right or wrong, generalized into the arguments against the importing of workers. You will have a difficult time in convincing an unemployed American (or a citizen of any nation) that it is acceptable to bring in a foreigner to fill a position in times of high unemployment.

The original post is racist. You could debate it all day long but it clearly makes a distinction between Americans and Indians, and how one is somehow magically responsible for driving the salaries down, when he's doing nothing different than the other.

I would not debate that at all. I would however lean towards the word nationalism over racism due to the nature of the discussion even though they often go hand-in-hand.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[pclminion]

What... the... hell? Two hours prior to RELEASE, you were BUILDING the product? Wow, you allocated what, an hour, for release testing? Or you just kinda skip that part? You don't freeze your code base months or weeks prior to release? You don't have a revision control system that allows you to roll back a bonehead change? Yes, there certainly is some incompetence at your company, but it's not the Indian.

Re:H-1B is a Fraud

[NormalVisual]

H1B requires the companies to pay as much to an H1B hire as to an American citizen with the same experience/profile.

Yes, that's what the law requires, but the law isn't enforced to any meaningful degree. There are plenty of companies that pay their H-1Bs as they're supposed to, but there are also plenty that don't. Every company I've worked for that used them also lowballed them and held them in line via restrictive contracts that were prohibitively expensive to break.

As regards skills, my experience is that they're roughly on par with American folks - some are good, and some suck. In particular I've had the pleasure of working with a few guys from Singapore and Sri Lanka that were simply incredible, but I've also dealt with an Indian that thought his shit didn't stink and couldn't do anything at all without explicitly direction on every tiny thing he was to do, and even then the code quality was just abysmal.

This is a job for WikiLeaks!

[ThreeGigs]

it seeks the identity of the poster of a since-removed Apex employment agreement on Docstoc.com

Seriously, the document in question should have been uploaded to WikiLeaks.
Anyone have a copy or linkage? I can't find it.

Re:This is a job for WikiLeaks!

[Anonymous Coward]

related post on itgrunt from google cache ... I would like to take this oppurtunity to highlight several aspect''s of the 9 page legal agreement which might be important for you. For example: 30 day termination notice or forget your last paycheck when you quit, If you join a company (including any level between you and Apex) then pay $35000 or face a law suit, $9000 for legal,training and guest services when you quit. $35000 if you quit in between a contract...etc. The legalities of the agreement are convoluted,complex and can/will be used against you if you displease Apex technology Group Inc. So once you sign that document you are at the mercy of the employer and much worse than a bonded labour in India. Apart from above, employees don''t receive their salary at the end of the month. It is usually received @ a random date in the following month, provided you are lucky. Else you would have to chase HR/Accounting to get your pay check. This process helps Apex technology group inc to hold back pay incase you choose to accept employment at another location. The most important aspect of your transaction''s with Apex Technology Group Inc is that they tell you one thing before you transfer your H1B to their consulting firm and then later do not stick to what they say(aka lies & cheating). In other words once you file/transfer your H1B to them you more or less become their slave and you will get entangled in thier web of lies and legal documents...

Holy indentured servitude Batman!

Sold justice.

[unity100]

this is what happens in a cutthroat, unregulated capitalist system. rich can buy justice, whereas individuals can buy shit. enjoy.

Re:Sold justice.

[introspekt.i]

Libel is libel, buddy. Get off your high horse.

Re:Sold justice.

[ShatteredArm]

Indeed. To borrow from one Mr. Churchill, it's the worst system there is, except all the others that have been tried.

Seriously, though, the ability to buy justice is not an attribute of free market capitalism, but crony capitalism. Free market capitalism has never been tried.

First thoguht on RTFA

[DragonFodder]

fascism
/fæzm/ Spelled Pronunciation [fash-iz-uhm]

–noun
1. (sometimes initial capital letter) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly
suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive
nationalism and often racism.

Courtesy of Dictionary.com

Re:First thoguht on RTFA

[kevinNCSU]

What would you consider middle ground when it comes to harboring and/or supporting terrorists who plan to kill civilians in mass? Your government either allows them to base themselves in your country and protects them because they want them there or they do not want them there, and tries to remove them and asks for help if they are not capable of doing so.

What would you describe as the middle ground?

Re:First thoguht on RTFA

[Artifakt]

I always though people bold parts of a definition because definitions are often complex, and in particular, have conditional parts. The definition you're addressing does have such parts (i.e. "often racism" and arguably ".etc"). You may note that Azaris boldfaced one of the conditional parts, and if you leave off that optional 'racism' part, is making the argument that there's no aggressive nationalism going on around here that could lend support to the definition of fascism being true now. Rather an odd claim to make, isn't that?

        Regimenting industry means what it means. Taken at the most literal, it means something like arranging industries so they fall into neat groupings. I think "for the purposes of the arranger" is pretty much a 'gimmee' there, so if the arranger is the government, it moves a shade towards your 'taking control', but that's not exactly 100% overlap with the variation you propose.

        Would you agree that there are a lot of people who move back and forth from industry boardrooms to government positions, often repeatedly? How do you tell industry taking control of government from government taking control of industry, when it's really the same people acting in the same way as they shift locations? Right now, Dick Cheney is reaping the benefits as a private citizen that began when he was secretary of Defense (if not earlier), were implemented in part while he was a board member of Haliburton up to 2000, and were still being developed during the period he re-entered public office as Veep.

        You might want to study the German and Italian cases, as that's exactly the sort of thing that happened there - highly placed officials either moving back and forth from industry to government or using transparent proxies such as close relatives to control such industries while remaining in government (or vice versa). Don't worry about whether a given regimentation starts in industry or government, look at the people who drive the changes, what they want, and where they are going.

      You know, Eisenhower didn't coin the phrase "Military-Industrial Complex" so people could still demand that it all originate with one side or the other. The whole point is they are blended together too much to know which initiatives start with the official government and which start elsewhere.

First amendment

[jbolden]

How is this not clear cut first amendment? A collection of websites expresses a political opinion. A potentially tort-able act, distributing a copyrighted document occurred. That doesn't give the courts the right to issue a blanket cease publication order.

Assuming the Computer World story is correct Judge James Hurley should be removed from the bench. I want to post this here for comment, since I live in NJ and thus have a state Senator that has oversight.

Re:First amendment

[DustyShadow]

Please excuse my ignorance of the case because I have not read all the details or TFA but I did skim it and it sounded like it was just a temporary injunction. This sort of thing is common in civil cases where the plaintiff alleges some type of damage if the "behavior, action, etc." continues during the litigation. A court will issue a temporary or preliminary injunction in the meantime. The plaintiff normally has to show that it is likely to win the lawsuit. Sometimes the plaintiff also has to purchase a bond in the event that it loses and the defendant suffers harm due to the injunction. I highly doubt a bond was required in this case.

I'm not saying the judge's decision was correct. I'm just pointing out that this probably was not a permanent injunction.

Re:First amendment

[MobyDisk]

Yeah, but the injunction was against the entire site, not merely the libelous statements. Would it be fair to shut down all of Slashdot because of one libelous post? Also, if this is a copyright issue, then a DMCA notice is sufficient to have the document removed. No need to take down the entire site.

Re:First amendment

[Svartalf]

It's not just First Amendment violations we're talking about here.

The order impacts stuff completely out of his jurisdiction. Unfortunately, for the Judge, he's just issued an order that has National and International ramifications and at least one of the companies in question happens to be based in Scottsdale, Arizona (GoDaddy...).

HOW can a state judge issue such orders? This is actually quite outside of his jurisdiction as best as I can tell.

Re:First amendment

[jbolden]

Well my issue is First Amendment. Courts are not permitted to take illegal action in an injunction. For example they can issue an injunction preventing you from mowing your lawn they can't burn your house down.

And it probably wasn't a permanent injunction, I agree but think that is irrelevant. The judge should still be off the bench.

Re:First amendment

[snowgirl]

Actually, the judge does have authority to do this as long as he's not making a prior-restraint action. In this case, the judge has found that the content on the webpages is prima facie defamatory, and needs be taken down until such time as a full look can be made at the content.

It is likely that this action was taken because the websites in question refuse to, or are unable to produce the identities of those individuals making the defamatory comments.

You also seem to lack knowledge about how the judicial system works, because in a Common Law system such as we have in the United States, the significant amount of what is "legal" was established by judges hundreds of years ago, not by any legislative body. That one can sue a company for a dangerous product? Judicial activism. Trials for embezzlement? Judicial activism. In the Common Law system, you're more likely than not to come across a law being based on "judicial activism" than it being original legislation.

If you want a court system where the highest court can only render one page summary conclusions about which legislatively-enacted law applies in this specific instance you'll need to move to France, or another continental European country.

Re:Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc.,

[wonkavader]

Excellent link. Apex doesn't score very well. (Read as: "Scores VERY Badly.")

Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[ground.zero.612]

Maybe if we had a president that said he was going to do something he could actually do, this wouldn't be a problem at all. The president's job isn't to create jobs, and I feel bad for all of you that voted for Obama because you thought he was going to change the country into a fully employed working class with free healthcare.

One of the biggest crocks of shit I've heard these holier than thou politicians say repeatedly, is that they are going to use our tax money to create jobs. Jobs that our very own government let our corporations outsource to India, Mexico, and China. I'm not sure that the term outsource fully matches with importing temporary H-1B visa immigrants to take our jobs, but I see it as part of the same problem.

I would really like to see a guy run against Obama in 2012 on the premise of reclaiming our outsourced jobs, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

The fact is, the people of the US were better off when we were mostly isolationist and had extremely limited foreign trade partners. We were certainly better off before our government let our corporations sell us out to cheap 3rd world labor.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[drsquare]

DEY TOOK OUR JERBS!!!

But seriously, you want to turn the USA into an isolated state like North Korea just so you don't have to compete for employment. And you haven't thought it through very well: protectionism works both ways. Cut yourself off from the world, and US companies won't be able to outsource any of their products. They'll have no option but to move their entire operations outside of the US, then you won't have any jobs at all.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[MickyTheIdiot]

Executive Management are not going to move overseas. Executive Management are the people (in the U.S. anyway) that are making money off of outsourcing. They are making a killing off of it and they don't want to be Chinese wage slaves anymore than any of us do.

The argument for outsourcing is that it allows everyone over here to do "more important jobs," i.e. Management. The flaw in this argument is that not everyone can be Managers. Some of us aren't cut out for it and there are always going to be those not smart enough for it.

What are you going to do with the doers if all the "menial" work is outsourced? We better be thinking of answers. Some of us can create small businesses, but not everyone.

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[Anonymous Coward]

, canceling all worker visas, banning of outsourcing, banning of multinational corporations, and fighting illegal immigration with the greater enthusiasm than drugs and terrorism.

Stop being ignorant. We *need* the worlds most talented engineers to come to the US legally, work here and pay taxes. If anything, we probably need stricter hiring practices. If Americans hire crappy engineers, it isn't the engineer who is at fault for trying. Also, If you think you're so better than the Indian H1-B you should have no problem convincing any employer to give you a job. I have never seen a (US citizen) programmer who is proficient unable to get a job. If you're run of the mill average, as I suspect most of these sites' members are, then tough shit.

Btw, I'm pretty sure Linus Torvalds came here on an H1-B Visa ;)

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[lawpoop]

And you haven't thought it through very well: protectionism works both ways. Cut yourself off from the world, and US companies won't be able to outsource any of their products. They'll have no option but to move their entire operations outside of the US, then you won't have any jobs at all.

That's fine. They can sell their products outside of one of the largest markets in the world. Plenty of other companies will be happy to sell products in the American marketplace, employing Americans to produce them.

Globalism is nothing new. It's been going on since the 1500s. Protectionism works very well for countries who want to build themselves up. All of the countries that have become industrial powerhouses -- the United States, Great Britain, Germany, Japan, Korea, and now China -- did so by using tarriffs to block imports, and government subsidies to foster national industries. Check out this Thom Hartmann article:

"Yet "free trade" is a guaranteed ticket to the poorhouse for any nation, and the evidence is overwhelming. The concept was introduced, in fact, by Henry VII, as something that England should encourage other countries to do while it maintained protectionism; a process known as the 1485 Tudor Plan that led to the rapid industrialization of England and the deeper impoverishment of its trading "partners."

...But again, at a closer look, the reality is the opposite of what Friedman naively portrays in his book. In fact, Japan subsidized Toyota not only in its development but even after if failed terribly in the American markets in the late 1950's. In addition, early in Toyota's development, Japan kicked out foreign competitors like GM.

Thus, because the Japanese government financed Toyota at a loss (for roughly 20 years), built high tariff and other barriers to competitive imports, and initially subsidized exports, auto manufacturing was able to get a strong foothold and we now think of Japanese exports being synonymous with automobiles.

... For about 200 years, we understood this in the United States. Had the fathers of the United States like Lincoln, Washington, Jackson or Grant applied for IMF loans, they would have been denied: All of them believed in high tariffs and a heavy control of foreign investment, and considered "free trade" to be absurd.

In 1791, Treasury Secretary Alexander Hamilton submitted his Report on the Subject of Manufactures to the US Congress. In it he outlined the need for our government to subsidize new industries and subsequently protect them from the international markets until they become globally competitive.

Additionally, he proposed a roadmap for American industrial development. These steps included protective tariffs on imports, import bans, subsides, export bans on selected materials, and the development of product standards.

It was this policy, followed largely for most of the history of our country with average tariffs through most of the 19th and 20th centuries of around 40 percent, which built our American industry. All three times we radically dropped tariffs - for 3 years in 1857, for nine years in 1913 (just down to 25%), and in 1987 - what followed were economic disasters, particularly for small American manufacturers.

Since Reagan blew out our tariffs in the 1980s (and Clinton kicked the door totally open with GATT, NAFTA, and the WTO), our average tariffs are now around 2-4 percent. And the predictable result has been the hemorrhaging of American manufacturing capacity to those countries that do protect their industries through high import tariffs but allow exports on the cheap -- particularly China and South Korea."

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[Svartalf]

Considering that it was overall cheaper for Dell to slowly move their Customer Support operations to places like Oklahoma City instead of India, there should be a hint in that for all of you that keep spouting this BS line... :D

Re:Job Reclaimation, not creation.

[frank_adrian314159]

Ha ha. This is what "superior" geeks say to make themselves feel better about their sad lot in life.

But riddle me this, Batman... Who's really the smart one in this relationship? The one who's giving the orders and doing quite well doing so, or the one taking the orders that can be fired on a whim?

suggestion

[Anonymous Coward]

Maybe the US needs something akin to a license for software engineers. The barrier to entry in this field is too low.

While I have done very well over the last 23 years in this field, I would not recommend the investment in a CS degree alone to my children. Be an entrepreneur, doctor, plumber, electrician, nuclear engineer as your main profession.

CS is a useful SECONDARY profession because it gives you the tools to support your main endeavor.

Due to globalization the field is too unstable and vulnerable to be a main gig, IMO.

Make them citizens already.

[tjstork]

H1-B is meant to bring Indians into the USA and have them by the short hairs. I rather think that if an employer wants to bring someone onboard to the USA, they can, and should, without restriction, but, once you work in the USA, and pay taxes for six months, you should be made a citizen already.

Taxation without representation is not fair.

I thought we revolted from GB over that very issue, and it is despicable that we even tolerate this modern form of indentured servitude.

Re:Make them citizens already.

[SteveAstro]

I think, in this context the OP is referring to Great Britain, not George Bush Jr.

Copyright Infringement and Libel

[Adrian Lopez]

They're suing for copyright infringement as well as libel? Please tell me there's something more to the libel allegations than just the posting of the contract. Otherwise, they're either suing for libel over the posting of a legitimate document or suing for copyright infringement over a document they do not own.

Good way to end this BS

[causality]

More than that... What exactly is the site doing that would cause a takedown order for the whole domain? I mean, taking down a confidential company document is one thing... But to just issue an order to remove the domain entirely seems like too much.

But, I'm sure that when the sites come back up, they'll have even more readership.

I agree there was no reason to take down the entire domains. This really seems like it's becoming a standard tactic: put conditions into a legally binding contract, and then cry "copyright violation" when the contract is posted in public to the embarassment of its authors. An employment agreement is generally such a contract.

I propose a change to the law along these lines: your contract may be legally binding and public-domain, or it may be non-binding and copyrightable. You are, after all, asking a government agency (a public servant) such as a court of law to enforce it for you.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[jbolden]

Excellent policy. Makes sense, contracts should be public documents in all cases.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[mea37]

It only takes a review of the purpose of copyright to see that the claim of copyright over an employment agreement should be thrown out. Whether the law itself is well-enough written to allow for that is another matter.

OTOH, contracts can and routinely do include clauses to the effect that you cannot disclose the terms of the contract. Whether an employment agreement is a contract at best varies by state, but I'm aware of no reason they couldn't contain confidentiality agreements regardless.

Of course, the protection for that isn't as strong as copyright. And in the end, it doesn't matter; if I know that a company isn't proud of its employment agreement such that they want it kept secret, then I'm thinking twice about subjecting myself to said agreement.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[causality]

So there should be no privacy at all in any kind of legally binding arrangement?

If you want my tax dollars to finance its enforcement, in the form of our court system, then no. There should be no privacy in a contract. At least, any privacy would be in the form of "don't disclose it in the first place" and would not take the form of "now that it's been disclosed, use copyright laws to shut down sites which host it." Not only is the latter position a total failure to understand the nature of the Internet and the Streisand effect, it's also inconsistent with the purpose of copyright.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[dcollins]

"OTOH, contracts can and routinely do include clauses to the effect that you cannot disclose the terms of the contract. Whether an employment agreement is a contract at best varies by state, but I'm aware of no reason they couldn't contain confidentiality agreements regardless."

Great, but of course not binding on any 3rd parties.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Artifakt]

Apparently, he is claiming that copyright law should override contract law, and he's willing to urge suicide on people to make his point. Mickey, when somebody proudly announces that all the baby seals should be beaten to death with the bodies of the dead baby polar bears, they are a troll. Please don't feed the trolls.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Maxo-Texas]

You really want expert "X" badly so you pay them $150k AND give them 6 weeks vacation to get them but make it a secret to preserve morale of your other workers (making $90k and getting the usual 2 weeks, then 3 at 5 years) and to prevent other desirable employees from requesting the same treatment.

For example, I had a free week of vacation but wasn't to share that information with other employees.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Rob the Bold]

So there should be no privacy at all in any kind of legally binding arrangement?

Why argue such a ridiculous extreme? Why not say "so all weasels should be strangled?" or something equally unrelated.

As long as both parties wish to keep the agreement private, fine. Else, no. You can't hardly keep it a secret if you want to enforce it when your partner won't fulfill his end, now can you? Gonna take a labor agreement to the NSA Star Chamber Court? Tell 'em it's "National Security"?

Re:Good way to end this BS

[jimbolauski]

If you want my tax dollars to finance its enforcement, in the form of our court system, then no. There should be no privacy in a contract.

So all medical records of Medicaid/Medicare patients should be public?
How about medical records at hospitals that receive tax exempt status?
What about your mail, should it be made public (I doubt you want everyone knowing about your doll)?
Can your conversations be recorded in a car as long as you’re on a public road?
In all these cases the answer is no just because federal money is used does not mean that privacy is waived, and people have a right to protect that privacy. The copyright enforcement may not hold up since Apex is claiming that comments defamed them, they should be able to claim fair use because the original work was copied with the intent to criticize.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Psion]

You may be on to something here, but none of your examples represent a 'contract'. There is no public interest in private medical records or mail, or conversations regardless of public funding, but with a contract between the government and a private corporation, that situation changes. When I was working for the public school system, my salary was a matter of public record and posted on the website that I maintained, because the public had a right to know how their money was spent. Why should this be any different. Further, we aren't discussing matters of personal privacy, but corporate privacy, and when tax money's involved, I see no reason for full disclosure.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[geekoid]

If everything was public, everyone would realize everyone else is just as weird as they are and we can get over it.

Re:Good way to end this BS

[Maxo-Texas]

Yes that does suck. And based on our 20x productivity improvements, we should have 20 hour work weeks and 6 weeks vacations. We are screwed and being ripped off.

Not much we can do about it. It used to have other benefits, but we are losing them.

I currently get 22 days holiday. Soon it will be 27 days and that's it for a loooong time. I think in most of europe you get 20 days vacation plus 10 days holidays to start with. It's a sweet deal, especially when combined with good state provided health care and unemployment benefits.

The trade offs are 50%+ tax rates, but my understanding is folks are happy and don't mind that very much. It's more relaxed and less grasping than in the US.

Re:Sanjay sucks...

[ThatsLoseNotLoose]

No need to be a jerk, dude. Some of us are on company networks and don't recognize stormfront as a racist site - but our proxies do.

Thanks dickhead.

If it were me, I'd wait 2 weeks, then

[mandark1967]

I'd tell the court that I called in the order to take the site down to my out-sourced IT Support Center and I am still on hold...

". . . outstanding reputation . . ."

[base3]

Apex had an outstanding reputation in the information technology field . . .

There, fixed that for you.

Re:copyright? confidential terms?

[mea37]

Don't know why I'm responding to an AC, but ok...

I don't know what you mean trying to distinguish copyright from DMCA. DMCA is a particular batch of revisions to the copyright law. To pursue the matter under DMCA means exactly the same thing in the US as to pursue the matter under copyright.

If you would bother to RTFA, you would see that they are asserting copyright. TFA doesn't say whether they formally issued a DMCA takedown notice (as they would to properly suppress distribution of copyrighted material); my guess is that they did not. A DMCA takedown notice would not have resulted in the entire domain being shut down in any case. That was a separate matter related to the libel assertions.

It appears the copyright assertion is being used as grounds to find the identity of the person who posted the material - as in, "I want to know who did this so I can sue them".

Your comments on trade secrets, and your thoughts on which IP laws would cover contracts, have nothing to do with anything, so I assume you're just using them to try to sound smart in spite of being unable to discern that there is more than one legal issue being discussed in the article.

Let them know what you think

[assertation]

I remember a few months ago some local government tried to require job applicants to turn over their Facebook and other such similar logins. Obscure situation.....until it became the buzz in the blogosphere. The resulting public embarrassment and censure got the local government to scrap that policy.

To that end here is the URL for the contact page of Apex:
http://www.apextgi.com/contactus.php

Let them know what you think.

Anyone have the contact information for the judge or the relevant agency of the NJ state government?

Re:Reviews of Apex Technology Group Inc.,

[lastchance_000]

Nope, just a bad URL. Correct link

Re:If the same happened in Iran or N. Korea,

[maxume]

What sort of media do you think Rolling Stone is?

Libel trumps Free Speech

[mdmkolbe]

Libel trumps free speech. If the plaintiff's libel case is proven, then issuing a permanent injunction against the libelous page would be an appropriate resolution (legally speaking). As long as a libelous page is up, it continues to cause harm. These two facts together then justify a temporary injunction for the duration of the case.

At least that is the legal reasoning. I'm not saying I agree with it, but that is the way the law currently stands. For example, in this case the information isn't time critical, but if it were then a temporary injunction could be as bad as a permanent one.

Keep in mind that since the defendants haven't yet been identified they probably don't have any lawyers there to speak for them. Taking down the entire site seems excessive but is probably due to the plaintiff making as broad a claim as possible and the judge not being on the ball enough to limit the scope of the injunction.

Re:Libel trumps Free Speech

[jbolden]

OK that's an interesting point. The problem here is that the claim is copyright violation not libel. That is the plantiff is claiming the information is true not false. AFAIK true information cannot be libelous.

ITgrunt.com still in Google Cache.

[Animats]

See The Thugs At Apex Technology Group.

There's nothing there which could possibly be a copyright violation of Apex's content. They're quoting from "Tunnel Rat" on "endh1b.com".

"...I would like to take this oppurtunity to highlight several aspect''s of the 9 page legal agreement which might be important for you. For example: 30 day termination notice or forget your last paycheck when you quit, If you join a company (including any level between you and Apex) then pay $35000 or face a law suit, $9000 for legal,training and guest services when you quit. $35000 if you quit in between a contract...etc. The legalities of the agreement are convoluted,complex and can/will be used against you if you displease Apex technology Group Inc. So once you sign that document you are at the mercy of the employer and much worse than a bonded labour in India. Apart from above, employees don''t receive their salary at the end of the month. It is usually received @ a random date in the following month, provided you are lucky. Else you would have to chase HR/Accounting to get your pay check. This process helps Apex technology group inc to hold back pay incase you choose to accept employment at another location. The most important aspect of your transaction''s with Apex Technology Group Inc is that they tell you one thing before you transfer your H1B to their consulting firm and then later do not stick to what they say(aka lies & cheating). In other words once you file/transfer your H1B to them you more or less become their slave and you will get entangled in thier web of lies and legal documents..."

That sounds like a legitimate labor complaint. Some of those terms are probably illegal under U.S. labor law. See, for example, California law on prompt payment of wages.

Re:ITgrunt.com still in Google Cache.

[geekoid]

True, but sadly complaining means they will cut you and you end up back into the hell hole you came from.

An Obvious Truth

[icbkr]

After reading the above, I know a lot of good South East Asian programmers, many Indian, and I know a bunch that really suck. This is not a generalization, it is an observation. I also know a whole lot of WASP programmers that rock, and a whole lot that SUCK ASS. There is no doubt that there are companies that scam the H1-B system and that it affects programmers already in the US, but it affects the formerly H1-B programmers as well, so if we're to get some really good insight into this, how many citizens, formerly H1-B, are pissed off about the corruption in the system? And if you can figure a way to stem the corruption, by all means, be about it. More griping on here isn't helping. Write your congress and senate. Organize. Join your local AITP or whatever and do something.

rights and wrongs

[OrangeTide]

I don't care at all about the bullshit you just mentioned.
I only care that individuals have the right to criticize the government.

H1B program is indentured servitude. Instead,

[Brian Stretch]

skilled foreign workers should be fast tracked for citizenship. Any nation that makes migrating to the other side of the world look good DESERVES to lose their best and brightest.

The biggest problem is that H1B visa holders are made dependent on the company that hired them. If that company turns out to be yet more proof that Dilbert is non-fiction, they're stuck. They're forced to put up with the abuse or go home. Removing that dependency would eliminate much of the abuse.

Or maybe the biggest problem is that so many Big Businesses appear to be run by shortsighted sociopaths with MBAs. Or that Congress is corrupt as hell and is easily bought by said sociopaths. Or... anyhow, Indians aren't the problem.