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End of the Road For NASA's Mars Rover?

An anonymous reader writes "NASA celebrated Mars rover Spirit's bountiful, six-year stint on the red planet on Sunday – way longer than its forecast three-month mission. But it all may soon come to an end, stuck as it is in Martian sand."

181 comments

  1. What happened to their plan from a few days ago by sopssa · · Score: 1, Insightful

    They're trying to spin the wheels so that the rover digs deeper in the sand, but could adjust solar panels in to better position. It probably couldn't get up from there anymore, but could still remain in operation in the sand pit.

    Also, if you're putting a robot on a sand planet, wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

    But without Spirit, is there really any Opportunity to succeed?

    1. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Speare · · Score: 1

      Also, if you're putting a robot on a sand planet, wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

      Remember, the mission was intended to last at least 90 days, not multiple Mars seasons. They looked at brushes, cling-film, sliding-film, fans, and anti-static methods. The weight-to-benefit ratio, and the complexity of any of the approaches, ruled them out for this mission.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    2. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by khallow · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Also, if you're putting a robot on a sand planet, wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

      Air pressure averages about 1% of Earth's. There simply isn't enough atmosphere to justify a fan or the power it would draw.

    3. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by steveb3210 · · Score: 1

      how about something to vibrate them..

    4. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by bxwatso · · Score: 1

      The Martian atmosphere is so thin that any typical fan could not move the dust, i suspect. However, you could design the solar panels to tilt and shake the dust off. Still, they were designed for a few months service, making dust a non-factor.

    5. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by rickb928 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?"

      It was only expected to go 90 days, and not expected to suffer much dust or winter over.

      Another in the long line of 'why didn't they'. As in:

      "Why didn't they build these things to last 6 years?" Answer: They weren't expected to.

      "Why didn't they think of this or that?" Answer: The mission requirements did not include that.

      "Why did they do this or that?" Answer: They exercised their best judgement at the time. So far, so good.

      What part of exceeding your expectations by 24 times are you complaining about? Your GF expected a 1.0+ct diamond, and she got a 24-ct one? She complains it's VSS-1? That it's heavy? That it catches on her clothes? That it blinds people on the street?

      And does she ask you how much you paid for it, and you end up telling her the truth, you paid for a 1/4 ct brilliant, and wow, 6 years later ya got this...

      Again, no complaints about the Rovers. Spectacular performance. And NASA is scouting around for the next robotic mission. Ask some of these guys for ideas, anyone?

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    6. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by sznupi · · Score: 1

      OTOH the same atmosphere is able to support dust particles (heck, even dust storms) which cover the panels with...dust. So it might be not so clear-cut.

      From what I've heard, it was more about not knowing enough about dust dynamics in the Martian atmosphere at the time of rover development. Certainly not enough to justify the added complexity. They were surprised at the occasional cleaning effects after all.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    7. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Khyber · · Score: 1

      atmosphere in mars is 1/10 as thick at only 1% the pressure of earth.

      fans would be useless.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    8. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Also, if you're putting a robot on a sand planet, wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

      Because it was designed for a 3 month mission. Every ounce of weight added is a massive deal to a project like that where it would either add cost or require weight to be removed from somewhere else. As it was they were really testing the limits of the parachute/rocket/bouncy ball re-entry method.

      If they were really serious about a long duration rover project they would have sent an RTG powered probe... kind of like what the Mars Science Labratory will have.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    9. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 1

      Exactly. And the MSL is going to be nuke powered, none of this fussing around with solar panels. Of course the MSL is going to be HUGE compared to the MER landers.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    10. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Lumpy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Two cans of computer duster in quick draw holsters. DUH!

      This is not rocket science here...... Oh wait....

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    11. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by rickb928 · · Score: 1

      And more and more of everything.

      More to break. Kinda sad.

      --
      deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
    12. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the 6-year old rover is more likely to give you a blow job than your girlfriend is to give you one for a 24-ct diamond that cost you the same a 1/4-ct diamond.

    13. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      God what coincidences always seem to await me. When I got back from lunch the photo on my screen saver was the rover's wheel when it was stuck in the dirt the last time. Then I log onto slashdot and look what the topic is!

      if you're putting a robot on a sand planet, wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

      They were only designed to last three months, not long enough for dust buildup on the solar panels to matter. Nobody dreamed thses things would still be crawling around Mars six years later. I say "bravo" to the guys who designed these, not "why didn't you..."

    14. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by khallow · · Score: 1

      Actually, this is probably the first workable idea mentioned so far. Use something chemically neutral like pure nitrogen to occasionally hit the solar panels with a few small bursts of air.

    15. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Surprisingly, that's not what Tiger told me just the other day...

    16. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by mike260 · · Score: 3, Funny

      It seems to me that the simplest solution would be to send a manned mission and have the astronauts follow the rovers around with a rag and a bottle of windex.

    17. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by mike260 · · Score: 1

      What bits of equipment would you remove to compensate for the extra weight?

    18. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Jeffrey_Walsh+VA · · Score: 1

      fans to blow off the sand
      Fans? Even in Earth's atmosphere it would probably be better to just tilt the panels inverted and maybe agitate them. From the article: "Dead in its tracks, Spirit cannot shake off the Martian dust"; shaking seems to work but only if the rover is mobile.

    19. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels

      with all the atmosphere Mars has, the fans would require more power than they could get by blowing the dust off the solar panels.

    20. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by MichaelSmith · · Score: 1

      Both rovers are so far past their design life that arguments like this are moot. A fan would not work because mars has hardly any atmosphere and anyway it would not have been needed for the design life.

      So long Spirit, and thanks for all the science. You have done well.

    21. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by dissy · · Score: 1

      What bits of equipment would you remove to compensate for the extra weight?

      I hate to say it, but sounds like the on-board secondary backup espresso machine will need to go :{

    22. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      wouldn't it kind of make sense to have some fans to blow off the sand from the solar panels?

      There's not enough air on Mars to make for effective fans. Compressed air may fare better. However, that would have added additional weight and complexity, and is untried.

      For example, they didn't know whether the dust particles were clingly or loose during the design. If they were clingly, then compressed air may make the problem worse. Based on observation, it's not that clingy, but that's information that didn't exist at design time.

      I'd suggest instead to have a thin but long robotic arm with both a brush and a little shovel. The arm could be used to both brush the panels and dig out the wheels. But that's all shoulda woulda coulda as hindsight.
               

    23. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ok, so you design your air blower to last at least three months, just like the rest of the machine. It's now more than six years later and there hasn't been any 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane in the bottle for three of 'em.

      Maybe the "proper" solution is to use the rovers as long as we can, and, I don't know, keep sending more cheap rovers rather than trying to send one mega-rover every ten years.

    24. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by khallow · · Score: 1

      Ok, so you design your air blower to last at least three months, just like the rest of the machine. It's now more than six years later and there hasn't been any 1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane in the bottle for three of 'em.

      If you're designing your rovers to last only three months, then it isn't worth the cost or weight. These guys are talking about solutions that can last several years. As I pointed out, compressed air is a solution that can actually work over that time frame.

      Maybe the "proper" solution is to use the rovers as long as we can, and, I don't know, keep sending more cheap rovers rather than trying to send one mega-rover every ten years.

      Would be sweet. Apparently the scientific community is satisfied with the current, paltry rate of scientific exploration. My suspicion is that the powers-that-be are more interested in developing space probes than in using them. Hence, the mega-rover is preferred over a lot more hardware in the field.

    25. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      The useless solar panels, then we dont have to dust them off.

      Nuclear power, makes the sucker have enough energy for 20 years...

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    26. Re:What happened to their plan from a few days ago by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Every feature is another thing to go wrong and therefore another thing to extensively test. That may not matter so much when you're making luxury automobiles. But it's big deal when you're developing one-off robots to explore another planet. Time spent making sure the fans were actually effective is time that could have been spent improving more important areas, or simply reducing the cost to make the project more feasible.

  2. Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid. by Web+Goddess · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wish the poster had done a better job summarizing the situation. Spirit is stuck in the sand and can't rock itself free; because it's not moving, sand and dust is collecting on the solar panels; winter is coming on Mars, making the solar energy that much weaker anyway.

    But even as cute little rover sits there spinning, its wheels are doing Science, they dug down to a layer with sulfur. Sulfur indicates hydrothermal vents, and hydro is the greek word for water. Woot!

    A miracle could happen; a sandstorm could clean off the solar panels, allowing enough energy for a mighty push that could free the machine.

  3. look on the bright side by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Funny

    some exoarcheology student in a couple hundred years is going to make the find of his life

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:look on the bright side by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      I hope you mean some extra-terrestrial exoarcheology student, because it's too sad to imagine that all information on the rovers will be lost in a couple hundred years.

    2. Re:look on the bright side by sopssa · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's more sad than thinking those extra-terrestrials have either killed us or drove us away from our solar system.

    3. Re:look on the bright side by Thanshin · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's more sad than thinking those extra-terrestrials have either killed us or drove us away from our solar system.

      Wow, foreign students must be pretty violent in your country. As you're still alive I guess they drove you away?

      Or maybe you're the foreign student and you killed the entire population of the country you were visiting?

    4. Re:look on the bright side by yurtinus · · Score: 1

      I think he meant they took'd his jearb.

      --
      +1 Disagree
    5. Re:look on the bright side by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      Or maybe you're the foreign student and you killed the entire population of the country you were visiting?

      Or maybe he's one of the foreign "explorers" that come long before the students do... they're the ones that do the killing and the driving away...

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    6. Re:look on the bright side by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, if extra-terrestrials were doing archeology in our backyard and they were not hostile to us, don't you think there would be some information sharing going on?

  4. Note: It was not designed to last 90 days by mykepredko · · Score: 1

    Anytime Spirit/Opportunity are mentioned here, somebody puts in the post that they are amazing, considering they were designed to work for 90 days.

    It should noted that they were designed to work no matter what for their initial 90 day mission and that running beyond that was expected.

    Of course, running 6+ years is quite an accomplishment.

    myke

    1. Re:Note: It was not designed to last 90 days by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's like the miracle of Hanukkah all over again.

    2. Re:Note: It was not designed to last 90 days by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      It should noted that they were designed to work no matter what for their initial 90 day mission and that running beyond that was expected.

      Very true. 90 days was a "guaranteed" lifetime for doing the cost-benefit analysis for the mission. Obviously to guarantee 90 days, the rover would have to be designed to last much longer than that.

      It should also be noted that the 90 day lifetime was based on how long they thought it would take before the Martian dust covered the solar panels and the rover died. Various cleaning mechanisms were considered, but ultimately weren't considered worth it. That the Martian wind happens to be enough to do an adequate job of blowing dust off the panels by itself was an unexpected but happy surprise, and is the reason the rovers lasted past 90 days.

      Of course, running 6+ years is quite an accomplishment.

      Indeed. It's a testament not just to the engineering team who designed the rovers, but to the operations team that has kept it going.

      Also, while only obvious in hindsight, and even though it is what will ultimately kill the rover, not including a cleaning mechanism was the right call.

      Lastly, I find it amazing that even sitting on what may be its final resting spot, in its final days, on its last leg (or rather wheel, at least on one side), it is still doing remarkable science. There is so much to learn about Mars that is literally right below the surface.

      I can't wait for the Mars Science Laboratory. Also, I'm really hoping they take Lore Sjoberg's suggestion to heart and make one of MSL's missions to run over Spirit/Opportunity, monster-truck style. But if they can't fit that in to the mission parameters, I'll understand.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
  5. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by sopssa · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Does it need continuous power to stay capable of operating? Or could it just wait over winter without power to see if there was a storm that cleaned its solar panels, and continue when more power is available again?

  6. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

    Maybe well get lucky. Maybe it will strike oil. Heh, the scientific community would seriously shit kittens if that ever happened.

    --
    Life is not for the lazy.
  7. Anyone seen the movie Saw? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Clearly the rover isn't making much progress with it's 'dead foot' stuck in the sand, so why can't we cut it off? Yes, I know that wasn't part of the package, but it'd be pretty cool if the Rover could dispatch its lifeless appendage with a saw, or laser, and continue on its merry way. Oh well...

    I don't recall the location of the other rover, but can that scoot over to the broke down r.c. car...err rover and help it out? Worst case is that one gets stuck, but at least they won't be lonely then. :)

    These things remind me of the little engine that could! Keep on truckin'!!!!

    1. Re:Anyone seen the movie Saw? by MightyMartian · · Score: 1

      I see the next installment of the Saw series forming here.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Anyone seen the movie Saw? by khallow · · Score: 2, Informative

      Clearly the rover isn't making much progress with it's 'dead foot' stuck in the sand, so why can't we cut it off?

      As I understand it, there are no "stuck" feet. The rover simply doesn't have the traction (perhaps combined with low motive power) to leave this area of sand.

    3. Re:Anyone seen the movie Saw? by Maddog+Batty · · Score: 1

      One wheel failed years ago and a second failed recently. Both have shown signs of life recently but in the last attempt to move the Rover only 4 of the 6 wheels moved. The two wheels that failed are on the side with the best traction of course.

      --
      wot no sig
    4. Re:Anyone seen the movie Saw? by sznupi · · Score: 1

      The rovers are far away, they will never meet (well, not on their own accord; who knows, retrieval teams might keep them in one place before sending to separate museums, for example)

      And we want it that way - what's the point of two rovers if they explore the same strip of the planet?

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    5. Re:Anyone seen the movie Saw? by StickANeedleInMyEye · · Score: 1

      if they only would have used sealed wheel bearings... but - the weight, only expected a 90 day lifespan, etc... chuck it. bring on beta version .001a tested in Mojave desert for 180 day expected lifespan = 12 yrs on Mars!

  8. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by binarylarry · · Score: 1

    Have you cleared this with Muad'Dib?

    --
    Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
  9. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Informative

    Does it need continuous power to stay capable of operating?

    Yes. It requires some nominal amount of power for heating to avoid freezing and damaging components. This is what happened to the Phoenix lander (as anticipated in that case). With the panels covered in dust, plus the additional cold and lack of sunlight during the winter, Spirit is unlikely to survive the winter unless something changes.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  10. Another Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cue the media reports of another NASA failure in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ....

    1. Re:Another Failure by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cue the media reports of another NASA failure in 5, 4, 3, 2, 1 ....

      (sounds of tumbleweed blowing past)

  11. Way to go, NASA! by Angst+Badger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As spectacular as some of its failures have been -- like slamming a probe into Mars because one group failed to convert the units the other group was using -- it's important to recognize that NASA is capable of equally spectacular successes. These rovers have done way more than anyone expected and helped us learn a tremendous amount about Mars. We definitely got more than our money's worth on this project, and the scientists and engineers whose hard work made it happen deserve some serious accolades.

    --
    Proud member of the Weirdo-American community.
    1. Re:Way to go, NASA! by amabbi · · Score: 4, Interesting

      As spectacular as some of its failures have been -- like slamming a probe into Mars because one group failed to convert the units the other group was using -- it's important to recognize that NASA is capable of equally spectacular successes. These rovers have done way more than anyone expected and helped us learn a tremendous amount about Mars. We definitely got more than our money's worth on this project, and the scientists and engineers whose hard work made it happen deserve some serious accolades.

      I think it's also important to note that NASA is something like 5/6 in Mars landings.... no other agency in the world has even landed 1 successfully. People (correctly?) shit on NASA for its perceived failings in manned spaceflight but it has an unbeatable record in interplanetary exploration.

    2. Re:Way to go, NASA! by Rakishi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Sort of, the soviets managed to land intact on Mars twice. Of course since both lander stopped working within half a minute it's hard to really call them successful.

    3. Re:Way to go, NASA! by sznupi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...no other agency in the world has even landed 1 successfully...

      Huh? While mission of Soviet Mars 3 lander was pretty much a failure (transmission ended 20s after landing due to unknown reasons; what it transmitted and observations suggest it had the misfortune of landing in extreme dust storm), it has successfully landed. It was the first man-made objest on Mars that did.

      There is something about worth of accomplishments if only own ones are remembered...

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    4. Re:Way to go, NASA! by cmiller173 · · Score: 1

      As spectacular as some of its failures have been -- like slamming a probe into Mars because one group failed to convert the units the other group was using -- ...

      From CNN circa 1999...

      NASA lost a $125 million Mars orbiter because a Lockheed Martin engineering team used English units of measurement while the agency's team used the more conventional metric system for a key spacecraft operation, according to a review finding released Thursday.

      ...

      The latest findings show that the spacecraft's propulsion system overheated and was disabled as Climate Orbiter dipped deeply into the atmosphere, JPL spokesman Frank O'Donnell said.

      That probably stopped the engine from completing its burn, so Climate Orbiter likely plowed through the atmosphere, continued out beyond Mars and now could be orbiting the sun, he said.

      missed it by that much...

    5. Re:Way to go, NASA! by Guysmiley777 · · Score: 3, Informative

      The USSR bounced plenty of probes off and past Mars before and after the Mars 3 lander. Getting onto the surface of Mars is no trivial task. I think they had 7 failures (not including launchpad kerfuffles) where the probe either stopped responding, missed the planet or created a new crater.

      --
      Coding with assembly is like playing with Legos. Coding an application in assembly is like building a car with Legos.
    6. Re:Way to go, NASA! by eples · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There is something about worth of accomplishments if only own ones are remembered...

      Just landing isn't much of an accomplishment. Did the Soviets get any useful science from the landing itself? They don't even know why it stopped working after it landed (successfully). Please, remember this all you want - I have no objection.

      --
      I'm a 2000 man.
    7. Re:Way to go, NASA! by DrVxD · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's an old trueism - "you get something right, nobody remembers. You get something wrong, nobody forgets."
      Sadly, no organisation in history has suffered from that more than NASA.

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    8. Re:Way to go, NASA! by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      In Soviet Mars, Russia lands on you!

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    9. Re:Way to go, NASA! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      As spectacular as some of its failures have been -- like slamming a probe into Mars because one group failed to convert the units the other group was using -- it's important to recognize that NASA is capable of equally spectacular successes. These rovers have done way more than anyone expected and helped us learn a tremendous amount about Mars. We definitely got more than our money's worth on this project, and the scientists and engineers whose hard work made it happen deserve some serious accolades.

      Your analysis seems to indicate that NASA is at fault for not knowing that JPL was using a non-standard measurement system, nor properly checking on their contractors responsibilities. In fact, JPL was in breach of contract for using the Imperial system and then further for not indicating that they were when its standard practice to use metric. In the end, yes, NASA had the mud on their face and had to take responsibility, but the only error on their part was in relying on others and not having the budget to do it all themselves.

    10. Re:Way to go, NASA! by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Well it's hardly a surprise they had problems. Who eats kerfuffles on a launchpad?!

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    11. Re:Way to go, NASA! by sznupi · · Score: 1

      Oh, so now the landing on Mars (which in itself brings lots of useful science, confirms many ideas about the planet) isn't much of an accomplishment...well, parent poster to which I was responding thinks otherwise. And he was specific about the landing.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    12. Re:Way to go, NASA! by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's hard to verify that something landed when you hardly get any data back. It may be indistinguishable from a semi-crash.

    13. Re:Way to go, NASA! by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      83% success rate? Good enough for government work!

  12. Hats off to the rover designers by Alcimedes · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd just like to take this opportunity to tip my hat to the folks that designed this rover. It was slated for a 180 day mission, and they just finished up day 2,190. That's some pretty high quality engineering that must have gone into this project, especially when you take into account it's on *another planet*, so no tech to fiddle with something that's just a bit off here or there.

    No parts, no cleaning, no help at all. To top that off, it's doing all of this on Mars, which isn't really an electronics friendly environment. It crash landed on another planet from a rocket ship and worked 10x longer than it was supposed to.

    Well done.

    1. Re:Hats off to the rover designers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Go Cornell!

    2. Re:Hats off to the rover designers by gohsthb · · Score: 1

      Maybe that's why it lasted so long. . . No tech to 'fiddle' with it.

    3. Re:Hats off to the rover designers by PingPongBoy · · Score: 1

      No parts, no cleaning

      Mars has been doing the cleaning. The wind has been cleaning the solar panels, and maybe the wind will have to either clear away the sand from the rover wheels or bury it.

      I wonder is snake locomotion has been tried. Turn the steering wheels to the side (or is it steered like a tank?) and slither around to smooth out the ground underneath. Typically when a wheel is stuck, it is in a depression surrounded by loose material - slithering pushes aways the surrounding hills and permits a hill-free space to create momentum. The momentum should be used to plow away the hills by a back and forth motion though. Trying to drive over the mini hills can be futile because you end up in fresh loose material and have to start over.

      --
      Know your pads. One time pad: good for cryptography. Two timing pad: where to take your mistress.
    4. Re:Hats off to the rover designers by golfnomad · · Score: 1

      I'd just like to take this opportunity to tip my hat to the folks that designed this rover. It was slated for a 180 day mission, and they just finished up day 2,190. That's some pretty high quality engineering that must have gone into this project, especially when you take into account it's on *another planet*, so no tech to fiddle with something that's just a bit off here or there.

      No parts, no cleaning, no help at all. To top that off, it's doing all of this on Mars, which isn't really an electronics friendly environment. It crash landed on another planet from a rocket ship and worked 10x longer than it was supposed to.

      Well done.

      2,190 days - 180 days = 2010

  13. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by tnk1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It needs enough power to at the very least maintain the heating of the components to a level where they will not be compromised. If the rover gets too cold over the winter, the actual materials of the rover could be damaged by the cold temperatures. In theory, it is possible that the rover could recover from a minimal power state if the panels were cleared of dust by a storm or something, but it's not all that likely. Mars is not a very hospitable place to begin with, and is a *very* bad place to run out of gas (proverbially).

  14. All is not lost by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    One option being considered is spinning the wheels on one side in the hope of tilting the solar panels to face the winter sun. Even if Spirit never travels again, all is not lost. There is a radio experiment for measuring the wobble of Mars as it spins that requires the rover to stay in one place. The key is surviving the upcoming winter, which may depend on a fortuitous wind blowing accumulated dust off the solar panels.

  15. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by natehoy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    IIRC they put it in "low power mode" last Martian winter and were pleasantly surprised when it survived, booted up, and restarted communications with Earth again when there was enough sunlight available. The trouble is, this year it's stuck at a less-than-ideal angle for collecting sunlight so there may be less of a chance of a springtime startup unless they can adjust the position, which of course takes, well, power. It's a risk either way. Plus, I think it's just locked up a second wheel, leaving it with 4 of 6.

    So we'll see. If it can't move again but gets power, its utility as a science platform is going to be severely impacted. Still, it will be able to collect data and pictures of the changing landscape in its immediate vicinity, and it seems to have gotten stuck in an interesting spot, so there will still be useful data coming out of it.

    And since the warranty ran out 5+ years ago, I think even a partly functional stationary science platform is pretty darned impressive.

    Even after six years, the simple fact that Mankind has working scientific instruments on Mars gives me a geekgasm all over again.

    --
    "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
  16. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by steelfood · · Score: 1

    I believe it needs a small amount of power to keep the antenna pointed towards us in order to continue to receive commands.

    Maybe in the future, we can design solar panels that won't collect dust over time. Or figure out how to turn the radioactive heating units into emergency backup power.

    --
    "If a nation expects to be ignorant and free in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be."
  17. End of the Road by Russianspi · · Score: 2, Funny

    Funny you should use that euphemism. A road would have helped the rover considerably.

    1. Re:End of the Road by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      By now, it would have been hit by a truck.

  18. Sad Face. :( by lwap0 · · Score: 1

    It's not over yet for Spirit! Still, should the unfortunate happen, I'll pour out a bottle of Ye Olde Fortran in memoriam.

    --
    I bring nothing to the table.
  19. a doctoral dissertation, 2250: by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Interesting

    "the lost century: the millennial archive hole"

    abstract: paper archives from the 1900s are still useable today, the only barrier being language conventions of that time period. additionally, digital records from the 2100s are usable today, due to mandated standardization of file formats and the prevalence of cheap, eternal nanoholographic storage. however, the 2000s consisted mainly of magnetic and optical storage on flimsy media. additionally, file formats were often proprietary, quirky, and ever changing due to the rapidly evolving nature of digital technology from that early era. if the actual media itself wasn't degraded, the file format itself was usually forgotten in a generation or two. finally, many early groundbreaking sites of the primitive internet are lost to posterity simply because they were designed to be ephemeral and ever changing, and no one thought to take archival snapshots of their content. it didn't seem important at the time. and so, the early decades of the digital age, when many fundamental crucial decisions were made that have defined our culture today, are forever lost to us

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:a doctoral dissertation, 2250: by Kjella · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If we preserve 0.01% of the digital junk we keep around, the 2000s will be much better documented than the 1900s. Hell, I was reading not that long ago about a huge library of old newspapers (like dead tree from the 1800s) that was being thrown away, because no one wanted to pay for storage. It's all been digitized though, probably OCRs too so you can do things like search it instead of sifting through endless microfiles. One reason alone digital will survive because it's valuable, I just recently noticed a newspaper I read would let you access every edition back to 1945 for a fee. That earns money, having a vault of newspapers? I doubt it.

      Besides, who does anything valuable that's bound to a media format anymore? It's called a disc image, and let you store it on any digital medium without having a real floppy or CD or DVD or whatnot. I talked to a relative of mine, they were getting fiber installed now, 15/15 Mbit was the slowest they'd offer. With that, you can have version-preserving, offsite backups in multiple bunkers half-way around the globe, safe for all but armageddon. Even if half the world was nuked pretty much all music would survive if Spotify's servers do. And don't think there'd be any lost episodes of Doctor Who.

      The format stuff is overrated. Emulation and virtualization means no one cares if there's no more C64s and Spectrums and Amigas and Motorola Macs, the images still run. And just because you can't open an ancient doc file in Office 2007 on Windows 7, does anyone really think we honestly couldn't find a binary of Office 95, fire it up in a virtualized Windows 95 and look? The only things that are really lost are some obscure science formats that nobody had or saw the purpose of or stuff that could only be captured once, like the original moon landing tape.

      Sure there will be personal tragedies of people who didn't pay any attention but they already do. Many, many people have realized when their homes burned down that uh-oh, all our family photos went with it. But the abundance of bandwidth and storage we're seeing is also an incredible opportunity to make easy, lazy solutions. Also wireless broadband can eventually become cheap enough that you backup as you go, if you lose the camera you might lose that day's picture but not your month-long trip. The greatest danger you'll lose something is because your relatives had a little "accident" when you tried to show the 10431 pictures and 2554 minutes of video grandaunt Selma took of her little wonderbrat.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    2. Re:a doctoral dissertation, 2250: by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      I think the bigger archives (university archives of PHD thesis, archives of major journals, NASAs archives etc) will be ok unless there is a huge paradigm shift or a major societial collapse. If pdf starts to lose favour as the format for distributing electronic documents I would expect these large archives to just convert thier documents en-masse to the new format.

      Lots of other less important stuff will be lost of course but that has always happened.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    3. Re:a doctoral dissertation, 2250: by IICV · · Score: 1

      ... and so, the early decades of the digital age, when many fundamental crucial decisions were made that have defined our culture today, are forever lost to us...

      ... as was the shift key.

  20. First man on Mars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Since he seems to have some time on his hands perhaps an easy solution would be sending Tiger Woods to Mars with a sand wedge?

    1. Re:First man on Mars by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      an easy solution would be sending Tiger Woods to Mars with a sand wedge?

      "With" as in "using"? It appears his wife tried that already.
           

  21. Late-Breaking News from the Council: VICTORY! by Tackhead · · Score: 4, Funny

    Today the Council of Elders confirmed the rumours that the sinister blue planet third from our star has waved the white flag of surrender regarding one of its mechanical invaders. K'Breel, Speaker for the Council of Elders, reported the leak of an intelligence report from the blue world:

    http://planetary.org/news/2010/1231_Mars_Exploration_Rovers_Update_Spirit.html

    Continuing his pronouncement, K'Breel continued: "The trap which we laid for the robotic invader has proven successful; the monstrosity from the blue world now lies half-buried in a Snarpat pit, impaled upon a spire of rock."

    "Rejoice, podmates, one invader has been immobilized, and even as I speak to you, our teams are dutifully hunting down the second. It is of identical design as to the first, and we anticipate that it will succumb long before it reaches its destination!"

    When a junior analyst suggested that both invaders had already exceeded their designed lifetimes by a factor of ten, and that even the immobilized one was one gust of wind away from being able to return operationally-useful scientific data from its current position for years to come, K'Breel had the analyst's gelsacs placed between the invader's slowly-spinning wheel and the crusty sulfates of Scamander Crater.

    1. Re:Late-Breaking News from the Council: VICTORY! by sznupi · · Score: 1

      ...little they knew the third planet, as they spoke, was preparing new, immensely bigger monstrosity, powered by the force of elements of matter itself.

      --
      One that hath name thou can not otter
    2. Re:Late-Breaking News from the Council: VICTORY! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      ...little they knew the third planet, as they spoke, was preparing new, immensely bigger monstrosity, powered by the force of elements of matter itself.

      "As one your leaders once said, 'Bring 'em on'!"
      - K'Breel, Speaker for the Council

      (When a press secretary reminded K'Breel that the leader in question had been deposed for almost half a year, K'Breel had the press secretary's gelsacs stapled to a chunk of plutonium, as part of ongoing research into how heat sinks could be positioned to divert heat away from thermoelectric couplings on the invaders' RTG units :)

  22. Ugh, maybe civilization will go down the shitter.. by sznupi · · Score: 1

    ...after all (how it has been predicted since the beginning of written history when looking at the intellectual and moral demise of youth, of course)

    Or at the least promoters of PHDs will do that. How could one dealing with the above dissertation let it through without mentioning DRM?

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
  23. It's not dead by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's just pining for the sinuses.

  24. NASA did it on purpose. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    NASA got the little rover stuck on purpose. So they could propose a manned rescue mission.

    1. Re:NASA did it on purpose. by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      So they could propose a manned rescue mission.

      Before they can get funding for that, they'll have to send Opportunity over to help out and get that stuck too...

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
  25. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Web+Goddess · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I dunno what's with the blame game, it's alone on Mars, something was going to go wrong eventually. If the designers had made an improvement that would alleviate THIS problem, something else would be missing making THAT a problem.

    Oh if only someone had thought to turn the radioactive heating units into emergency backup power! (sarcasm) If only someone had thought to install fans to blow the dust off! (previous poster, more sarcasm.)

    It is an incredibly well-designed machine; just like with the human body, everything has a cost. Improving one item means less for the rest.

    When I toured JPL it was obvious that the people there have an emotional bond with this little animal robot, its gritty determination, it's spirit of exploration.

  26. Cheers to all those involved! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cheers to all those involved. The twin rovers were brilliant!

    1. Re:Cheers to all those involved! by ZankerH · · Score: 1

      The other one is still going just fine.

  27. that's a benefit of flimsy media storage today by circletimessquare · · Score: 0, Redundant

    in the future, no one will know DRM even existed

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:that's a benefit of flimsy media storage today by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

      The future it will not be called DRM. It will be the way it is. If one format wins out over all others, everyone will use the same format.

    2. Re:that's a benefit of flimsy media storage today by DrVxD · · Score: 1

      in the future, no one will know DRM even existed

      Why? Are you going to DRM all the documents mentioning DRM?

      Hopefully they will know that it existed (and that it was a really bad idea). Something about those that forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them...

      --
      Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
    3. Re:that's a benefit of flimsy media storage today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In the future, DRM will be known only by its common name, "Protective Entertainment Neural Implant Suppressants."

    4. Re:that's a benefit of flimsy media storage today by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      so they'll repeat the same mistake again! We must ensure DRM's legacy!!

  28. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "IIRC they put it in "low power mode" last Martian winter and were pleasantly surprised when it survived, booted up, and restarted communications with Earth again when there was enough sunlight available."
    Weird.. I dont see why it was a surprise considering that it did science even throughout the winter. It was only put in low power/rest mode for shorter periods of time to ensure that the battery had enough charge. The main problem this year is that the rover is stuck and that the solar panels arent facing the sun directly which will mean even less power and possible not even enough power to keep the heaters running.

  29. A Martian Geodetic Observatory by mbone · · Score: 1

    Those of us who are interested in Martian climate oscillations hope that they can turn Spirit into a Martian geodetic observatory, to study the rotation of Mars. There hasn't been a good platform for doing this since Viking 1 died some 27 years ago.

    As Bill Folkner says : ""Long-term change in the spin direction could tell us about the diameter and density of the planet's core. Short-period changes could tell us whether the core is liquid or solid." There would also be good science in comparing the current rotation rate of Mars with the value determined by Viking; such data would be sensitive to changes in the water and CO2 accumulated at the Polar Caps.

  30. So? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The covering stones of the Pyramids have been used to build other buildings. The Chinese wall has been dismantled for resources as well. Painting have been painted over for the want of a canvas. Tapes for tv-shows have been re-used because tapes were expensive and who cared about another sitcom.

    It is nothing new. We learned most of the egyptians from their dump site where they dropped tons of daily, and in their eyes, worthless communication. One accidently saved backup of MySpace will tell future researchers more then museums of our age. It is the data we don't care about that tells the most about us.

    Some floppies will survive, purely by accident, and it will be, enough. The holocaust is important for our generation and yet its most influential book, The Diary of Anne Frank, is an accident. You could have all the records of the holocaust in tact, and it still wouldn't speak as loudly. If all the diaries of all the victims still existed, then they would be meaningless, a huge pile of paper nobody would ever bother to read. Precisely because records of the past are rare, we value them. If we knew every move of the roman empire, had it all on paper, what would be there to explore? Proof? How many people study ancient history vs the present? You can get all the records of the current senate of the world most powerful nation... C-span. Nobody is watching.

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:So? by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 1

      B-b-b-but some bald guy told me that the Diary of Anne Frank, and the holocaust, were a hoax!

    2. Re:So? by fprintf · · Score: 1

      Before recycling became vogue, I threw out hundreds of 3.5" "floppies" and various CDs. To the degree they survive the heat and pressure of the local landfill, someday in thousands of years someone may dig them up and learn something. I can't say it was anything useful except what a student of the late 80's had to produce in order to graduate from college. Oh and some games that refused to run on anything I owned... but I had the newest versions, so why bother keeping them (e.g. Flight Simulator for Atari) - doh!

      --
      This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
    3. Re:So? by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

      Some floppies will survive, purely by accident, and it will be, enough.

      Yeah, and those floppies will contain X-Files Mulder/Smoking Man slash-fic, and they'll know everything they need to know about our times: Best left forgotten.

      --

      The enemies of Democracy are
    4. Re:So? by metaforest · · Score: 1

      Some floppies will survive, purely by accident, and it will be, enough.

      Yeah, and those floppies will contain X-Files Mulder/Smoking Man slash-fic, and they'll know everything they need to know about our times: Best left forgotten.

      More than likely they would contain early 8-bit GIF nudes of Ms. Anderson.

  31. One word by tuxgeek · · Score: 1

    Terraforming
    It worked perfectly in the simulation known as Total Recall

    All we need to do now is send in the Governator to activate the reactor and the Spirit will live again

    --
    "Suppose you were an idiot...and suppose you were a member of Congress...but I repeat myself." Mark Twain
  32. Promoters will be worse than I thought at first by sznupi · · Score: 1

    Sooo...how could they know that "file formats were often proprietary, quirky, and ever changing due to the rapidly evolving nature of digital technology from that early era. ... the file format itself was usually forgotten in a generation or two. ... sites of the primitive internet are lost to posterity simply because they were designed to be ephemeral and ever changing"? ;p

    --
    One that hath name thou can not otter
    1. Re:Promoters will be worse than I thought at first by jbezorg · · Score: 1

      You see, some Internet Technologist were rich enough to afford elaborate burials. They were placed in tombs underneath their Mother's abode and were buried with their accumulated wealth. Heirloom electronics that has been passed down through generations, ritual energy drinks ( long since gone ), and other goods thought to be needed in the afterlife. And although the ages have toppled these revered accouterments needed to make the passage into the afterlife into piles of debris, they also allowed for the preservation of some and it is from these fossilized remains that the scientific community draws these conclusions.

      --
      I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
    2. Re:Promoters will be worse than I thought at first by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe someone wrote a book that involved that quote sometime in the near future.

      Y'know... books? Those things with a longer lifespan than the average pet, unlike things stored on computers?

  33. Too bad... by EriktheGreen · · Score: 0

    Too bad the design didn't include a wind generator...something with hugely oversized blades on a light, expanding tower, to catch the thin air. It would look like a giant palm tree walking across mars.

    Even better, how about a rover with a giant sail, rolling across the landscape using spoked free wheels rather than powered ones, or even wide skis.

    The silly thing is that the way these missions are designed, it costs NASA a bundle to keep the lights on. Not on the rover of course, but all the telecom equipment and people. If NASA designed a low cost communication system that could support these things for years, then they could just leave the thing operating and hand it over to a secondary investigator or intern to do science with. Or even a class of school kids.

    We could have dozens of these things operating on the moon, controlled directly from earth stations, for years at a time.

    Erik

    1. Re:Too bad... by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      They can. Problem is that you cant get people with Phd's to work for mission control for $8.95 an hour and work in a shipping container.

      You can communicate with mars for cheap, problem is the Cost of doing anything within a NASA building with NASA employees is expensive. Give the rovers control software and documents to a university and you could run it for peanuts... Students dont care about working in a non air-conditioned shipping container for nothing.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:Too bad... by EriktheGreen · · Score: 1

      No real argument here, I've often thought NASA (and many other government organizations) are too far gone culture-wise and in monetary habits to be worth keeping.

      I do disagree that Phd types wouldn't work cheap... I'm sure you'd find a lot who would for a chance like this, especially in the current economy.

      And I also think that the bulk of the budget to keep these rovers up and running isn't people and high government salaries (although the fact that it's a government operation multiplies the cost) but rather the large scale equipment needed... antennae, WAN communications, etc.

      Erik

    3. Re:Too bad... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Even better, how about a rover with a giant sail, rolling across the landscape using spoked free wheels rather than powered ones, or even wide skis.

      Not enough wind (at atmospheric densities) on Mars to make it work.

      Titan, on the other hand, might be a great place for a sailboat!

  34. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Lifyre · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There is actually a windshield/glass technology out there now that can prevent (or at least slow) the dust from building up on the glass of the solar panels. Unfortunately it wasn't around when these guys were built, proven, and then shipped off to a strange hostile world where they have run around like little conquering heroes.

    These little guys (and by extension their designers, etc...) are a shining examples of going above and beyond the call of duty.

    --
    I'll meet you at the intersection of "Should be" and "Reality"
  35. Re:AMAZING!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..what happens when market forces don't dictate a design to fail by date.
    If you had a warranty out on the rover it would have died in transit!

  36. I don't understand this by SnarfQuest · · Score: 1

    I don't understand this article. Can someone make a car analogy for me?

    --
    Who would win this election: Andrew Weiner vs Andrew Weiner's weiner.
    1. Re:I don't understand this by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      It's stuck in the snow, the cellphone is dead and they lost their AAA card.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    2. Re:I don't understand this by mcgrew · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's a 1928 Duesenberg that has never had any maintenance whaever, not even an oil change, and it's still working. However, it has a flat tire and can't get to the gas station and it's almost out of gas.

      Except it's on Mars.

    3. Re:I don't understand this by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I don't understand this article. Can someone make a car analogy for me?

      It's like a slashdot server where the techs have gone on vacation and you know it's about to be flooded and fried because of a popular article about winter that is auto-queued 2 months away. Oh, you said car? Fsck, this is slashdot, dude.

  37. How to make a 3 month stint last 6 years by viking80 · · Score: 1, Funny

    Have you ever landed a dream job with dream pay, only to realize it is just a 3 month contract? What do you do to extend it, and for how long can you do that?
    Here are the rules:
    1. Dont brake anything you need to do your job.
    2. Do everything really slow. And I mean really slow:
      -Tell your boss it will take 6 month to make a right turn.
      -Be a hero when you are able to do it in 3 months, stop the vehicle, take a lot of pictures, have some discussions, test the right turn in a sandbox, discuss more etc.
    3. Never take any risks. Test anything you plan to do in a sandbox again and again. It is actually fun to drive an RC car. If the car is stuck, you are unemployed. To the public, call it mission risk management. To your wife, call it food on the table management.

    Have fun

    --
    don't cut it off www.mgmbill.org
    1. Re:How to make a 3 month stint last 6 years by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      1. Dont brake anything you need to do your job.

      Did you mean "brake" or "break"? Because if you meant "break" it changes the meaning of what you said entirely, and if you meant "brake" I fail to see how slowing down your job will do anything except to make it last longer.

  38. A question for NASA by onyxruby · · Score: 1

    Has anyone at NASA tried contacting their local truck loving redneck to see if they could get it unstuck? You know, right before abandoning their multi-million dollar rover, just let their local mud loving red neck (with years of experience offroad) go to work and see what they can do. Once the engineers have given up, I can't see the harm, and there's that given chance that they can get it out.

    1. Re:A question for NASA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Has anyone at NASA tried contacting their local truck loving redneck to see if they could get it unstuck?

      Some NASA engineers are simply extraordinarily smart truck loving rednecks. They've tried.

    2. Re:A question for NASA by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I doubt your average redneck has had a truck that took ten minutes to get it from forward to reverse and another ten minutes to see if anything happened. That's how long it takes for a command to reach Mars from Earth, and from the feedback to reach Earth from Mars.

    3. Re:A question for NASA by KC7JHO · · Score: 1

      They are not stuck yet: "Yer not stuck til ya have ta call for help!"

      They still have hope for more sun / lucky break, failing that they can still say "We meant to do that... We were wanting to create a stationary Mars Observatory!"

  39. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Gilmoure · · Score: 1

    They discovered Greeks on Mars? No wonder Mt. Olympus is there!

    --
    I drank what? -- Socrates
  40. Spirit to NASA by roots0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    “There are levels of survival we are willing to accept.”

  41. Stuck in the Sand? by sexconker · · Score: 0

    "This is the end of the road, Galvatron!"

    Fucking Rodimus.
    That's Spirit, not Galvatron.
    Even with the Matrix you're still a fuckup.

  42. Is there not 2 of them? by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

    Correct me if I am wrong, I probably am, but I thought there were 2 of these rovers, could the other not lend a hand to get the first out of the mud/sand, or wipe off his panels for him???

    1. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by Titoxd · · Score: 1

      It's on the other side of the planet. It would probably take a sizable portion of our lifetimes to drive Opportunity all the way to Spirit's location (assuming that is even possible due to topographical obstructions).

    2. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by LMacG · · Score: 1

      Yes, there are two of them. They landed on opposite sides of the planet, so it's not like Spirit can just yell across the canyon to his buddy. In fact, Opportunity has travelled less than 12 miles in the six years it's been there.

      --
      Slightly disreputable, albeit gregarious
    3. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by gstoddart · · Score: 1

      Correct me if I am wrong, I probably am, but I thought there were 2 of these rovers, could the other not lend a hand to get the first out of the mud/sand, or wipe off his panels for him???

      As has already been pointed out, they're very far apart from one another on the planet -- many orders of magnitude further than either have traveled yet, and way more than either of them could ever possibly travel. Like, around the planet kind of distances.

      However, since the second one was added as a bonus (and I guess a failsafe) on top of the mission parameters without too much extra cost, they've managed to get an extraordinary amount of value out of these two little suckers. Over 6 years vs around 3 months of initially planned mission duration. It's the 1973 Honda Civic of space exploration -- beaten, battered, dusty, and no longer quite state of the art, but running nonetheless.

      We'll all lament the final death of these probes (OK, some of us will :-P), but they've performed admirably. We know they'll both succumb to the cold and dust before long -- it's mostly just astounding how long they've managed to keep 'em going. The sad thing is, after they've been performing on the planet for so long, I'm not even sure there's a replacement mission in the works in any meaningful timeline.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    4. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by hesaigo999ca · · Score: 1

      yes, and what better way to map out the planet then to do exactly this, if it were me, I would want to get as much out of my buck for the bang, as possible, and if I have to send my one car to help the other get out of the snow (or in this case sand) then so be it, I dont just leave my vehicle parked there.

    5. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      They're on opposite hemispheres of Mars.

    6. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by mbone · · Score: 1

      I'm not even sure there's a replacement mission in the works in any meaningful timeline.

      The next US rover will be the Mars Science Laboratory, a much bigger (five times as heavy) and more capable spacecraft, now planned for 2011.

      There is a very strong pressure in NASA to build new things. While it would make a lot of sense to send several more MER just like Spirit to different parts of the planet, that's not how NASA and the Congress (and the contractors and their lobbyists) think. The good side of this is that the new stuff can do more. The bad side is that it makes exploration slow and halting. If you just wanted to explore Mars, sending a MER to a different location every two years would make a lot of sense. Since the pressure is more on the building side, we get a shiny new mission every 7 or 8 years instead.

    7. Re:Is there not 2 of them? by mbone · · Score: 1

      Oppportunity is making 6 km / year. They are something like 8000 km apart, so this would take ~ 140 years or so, assuming no accidents (and, of course, there is no way either vehicle could last that long.)

  43. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by dgatwood · · Score: 1

    Maybe well get lucky. Maybe it will strike oil. Heh, the scientific community would seriously shit kittens if that ever happened.

    We'd just invade. And blame the Martians as the biggest threat to our nation's security....

    --

    Check out my sci-fi/humor trilogy at PatriotsBooks.

  44. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    What I wonder and nobody has brought up. Why cant it die and come back in the spring? IT should be like any computer/robot and easily recover from a total power failure and restoration.

    Why not let it sleep all winter and check in the spring when it may have enough solar-juice to come back online?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  45. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Lumpy · · Score: 1

    I though they did not use electric heaters on the rovers but used radioactive heating and aerogel insulation.. or was that the first little toy rover we sent?

    --
    Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
  46. Rover back to earth by t3chn0n3rd · · Score: 0

    Will the rover come back to earth or will it float off into space?

    1. Re:Rover back to earth by Yamata+no+Orochi · · Score: 1

      Will the rover come back to earth or will it float off into space?

      ...What? Neither. The rover has no way to leave the planet. It's practically an RC car.

  47. Send more! by J05H · · Score: 2, Insightful

    These rovers are a very mature design that has worked flawlessly. Build and send a dozen of them.

    --
    gigantino.tv - Heavy but weighs nothing.
    1. Re:Send more! by pz · · Score: 1

      These rovers are a very mature design that has worked flawlessly. Build and send a dozen of them.

      Indeed! Or make just minor modifications to the design: it has been a proven reliable platform.

      Modifications (off the top of my head) that would prove useful:

      1. more memory to avoid the pesky problems with the NVRAM
      2. higher energy density batteries (thanks to improved chemistries now available)
      3. ultrasonic vibrator to shake dust off the solar panels (work GREAT in my digital SLR camera)
      4. redesign the wheels a tad ... perhaps add a means of mechanical decoupling if they completely lock up
      5. just a tad more insulation to guard against the winter chills

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
    2. Re:Send more! by Baron_Yam · · Score: 1

      Minor tweaks to improve an existing design? I guess it depends on how integrated the sensor packages are, and how flexible the communication system is. You don't want to send the same rover every time.

      You need something like a standard truck frame onto which you can put any shell you like.

    3. Re:Send more! by pz · · Score: 1

      Yes, a standard truck frame rover would be a great idea.

      But 10 more rovers exactly, or nearly exactly, like Spirit and Opportunity would be fantastic. We know almost nothing about Mars right now.

      --

      Put my fist through my alarm clock with its ding-dong death inside my ear. - The Blackjacks.
  48. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Mercano · · Score: 2, Informative

    Weight. If you use nuclear power source, you've got to bring your fuel with you, where as with solar, the fuel is already packed away safely in the sun; you just need to bring a collector. Mars, unlike the outer planets, is still close enough to the sun that you get a reasonable amount of power from solar cells, if you have enough square footage, so solar wins the power/weight ratio contest. Besides, these things weren't built to survive the winter at all; the design requirements only called for three months.

    --
    #include <signature.h>
  49. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by DrVxD · · Score: 1

    Does it need continuous power to stay capable of operating?

    As has been pointed out elsewhere, yes it does. There's some detail in the Wikipedia article (oddly in the section on dust storms). There's also some nice "footage" of a Martian 'dust devil' - one of which fortuitously cleaned Spirit's solar panels earlier in the mission

    --
    Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
  50. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 2, Informative

    I though they did not use electric heaters on the rovers but used radioactive heating and aerogel insulation..

    You are correct that they do have a radioisotope heater and aerogel insulation, but they do use electrical heating as well to augment the base level created by the radioisotope heater. Without electrical power, it most likely won't have enough heat to survive winter.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  51. Correction of misinformation by tlambert · · Score: 3, Informative

    "The rovers run a VxWorks embedded operating system on a radiation-hardened 20 MHz RAD6000 CPU with 128 MB of DRAM with error detection and correction and 3 MB of EEPROM. Each rover also has 256 MB of flash memory. To survive during all of the various mission phases, the rover's vital instruments must stay within a temperature of 40 C to +40 C (40 F to 104 F). At night the rovers are heated by eight radioisotope heater units (RHU) which each continuously generate 1 W of thermal energy from the decay of radioisotopes, along with electrical heaters that operate only when necessary. A sputtered gold film and a layer of silica aerogel are used for insulation."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mars_Exploration_Rover

    -- Terry

  52. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by fprintf · · Score: 1

    I don't know what sort of batteries or energy storage devices are on board, but most of the conventional ones I am aware of (LiIon, LiPoly, NiCad, NiMH, Lead Acid) do not take kindly to a complete discharge. In fact I don't know of a single battery type that can get to 100% discharge and successfully be recharged. Apparently something needs to be there to tell the unit to wake back up, so there needs to be a least a little charge available.

    --
    This post brought to you by your friendly neighborhood MBA.
  53. They have this stuff by zogger · · Score: 1

    It isn't a perfect solution for a Martian environment, ie, no rain to help, but it is a step in the right direction

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-cleaning_glass

  54. Another failure by NASA by jocknerd · · Score: 1

    TIC. Definitely one of NASA's top 5 accomplishments.

  55. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by rwv · · Score: 1

    Does it need continuous power to stay capable of operating?

    Yes. It requires some nominal amount of power for heating to avoid freezing and damaging components. This is what happened to the Phoenix lander (as anticipated in that case). With the panels covered in dust, plus the additional cold and lack of sunlight during the winter, Spirit is unlikely to survive the winter unless something changes.

    Couldn't they have programmed some kind of self-cleaning cycle so these robots can fix themselves after sandstorms? The mission cost of a few extra actuators and a bottle of Windex seems pretty minimal versus robot death because of a particularly nasty storm.

  56. Yes, it needs power; here's why by tlambert · · Score: 4, Informative

    Tthe OS reboots periodically if there's no communication to ensure that it doesn't hang because of the OS. It's a hardware watchdog, which is NOT shut down when the rover is put to sleep, so it will wake periodically over the winter, try to establish communications, ask for a software update (if any), and then go back to sleep. Given that the original mission anticipated a 90 life expectancy, expect these reboots to be relatively frequent.

    http://www.flightsoftware.org/files/FSW08_Deliman.pdf

    -- Terry

  57. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by uncqual · · Score: 2, Funny

    In retrospect, counting on the rovers landing near some homeless Martians who would insist on cleaning the solar panels every time the rovers stopped may not have been the best plan.

    --
    Why is there an "insightful" mod and why isn't it "-1"? If I wanted insight, I wouldn't be reading /.
  58. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Couldn't they have programmed some kind of self-cleaning cycle so these robots can fix themselves after sandstorms? The mission cost of a few extra actuators and a bottle of Windex seems pretty minimal versus robot death because of a particularly nasty storm.

    Well, NASA considered that themselves, and their cost-benefit analysis said it wasn't worth it.

    And that was back before they knew that the Martian wind would blow strongly enough to do a decent job of cleaning the panels on its own, and thus had estimated that in 90 days the panels would be covered in too much dust for the rover to operate.

    "A few extra actuators and a bottle of Windex", snarkiness aside, is easier to say than to actually engineer without compromising other parts of the mission.

    And now that we know that the Martian wind does blow, and as a result the rovers lasted for a good six years, then I have to say with hindsight that neglecting any sort of cleaning mechanism and the associated weight cost was unequivocally the correct choice.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  59. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by dan828 · · Score: 1

    Well, NASA didn't expect them to last this long, so they long ago ran out of spare change.

  60. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Grizzley9 · · Score: 1

    As much as I love them and the science they are providing, part of me wishes they would die. This would help us focus on building the next generation rovers / science platforms that have more capability and can traverse farther (or can be made cheaply so many could be sent instead of having them travel so far) and possibly multi use on different planets. Would they work on the moon? Europa?, etc.

  61. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by rwv · · Score: 2, Funny

    "A few extra actuators and a bottle of Windex", snarkiness aside

    Lighten up. It was a joke. On the other hand, if I had suggested adding an extra roll of duct tape to the mission payload, that would have been a clue that I was making a serious suggestion because duct tape can solve any problem.

  62. Can RAT save Spirit? by zchris_gr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I really wonder if the Rock Abrasion Tool (RAT) arm (the grinder arm) is strong enough to help Spirit move away from its sand trap... Christos/Greece

    1. Re:Can RAT save Spirit? by Tablizer · · Score: 2, Informative

      I really wonder if the Rock Abrasion Tool (RAT) arm (the grinder arm) is strong enough to help Spirit move away from its sand trap

      I've read that its motor is simply not nearly powerful enough. And it risks damage to the instruments, which perform its primary job. As I remember it, they said they might try it if they felt it needed only slightly more lift to achieve freedom. But so far the math doesn't favor it. It's not even close to the threshold where it may help.
         

    2. Re:Can RAT save Spirit? by zchris_gr · · Score: 1

      Hello, I thought that they could use RAT not for cleaning the panels but for (lets say) pushing the ground and lifting a little bit the Rover. I understand that the RAT arm has not been designed for this but they don't have to lose anything if they try except damaging the tool. Checking a couple of Lab fotos I couldn't see the RAT arm and tool attached to the test rover. If I am right they might not be able to test this option. Christos/Greece

    3. Re:Can RAT save Spirit? by Tablizer · · Score: 1

      I wasn't talking about cleaning the panels (at least not in this message thread). I can't find the article that quoted the JPL technicians, but they pretty much ruled it out unless progress photos indicated that the wheels were *just shy* of being able digging out. The arm motors are not very strong.

      But it appears *no* attempts even came close. I remember a ratio something like 3-to-1, meaning that the rover sinks 3x units for every x unit of lateral movement. This pretty much means it will get deeper and deeper dug in upon tries, and likely go to 4-to-1, then 5-to-1, etc. until the rover's face is kissing dirt or rocks. Maybe if it was something like 0.5-to-1, then the small boost from the arm could get it over the hump.

  63. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Yeah I knew the suggestion was a joke, but I was responding to the not-necessarily-joking sentiment behind it of why not have a method of cleaning the panels. And not in a particularly dark manner I thought.

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  64. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by LordSnooty · · Score: 1

    Indeed. I wonder if the parent posters can think of any Earth-bound machines that operated to good capacity with no mechanical service in six years. They were designed well enough.

  65. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by rwv · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I guess I know what you mean. I'm also prone to taking wildly off-the-wall suggestions seriously as a thought exercise... but your error was bringing the conclusion back to a serious and scientifically correct conclusion.

    See the other responder to my Windex post who commented about NASA's false assumption that there would be homeless Martians lining up to clean off the instruments every time it stopped. That's the right way to respond to serious-sounding-but-idiotic suggestions in a science forum... with an even more absurd follow-up.

    Nonetheless, I thank you (sincerely, not snarkily) for your serious scientific observations. :)

  66. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Actually, many at l-mart are hoping that Phoenix survived in various levels. We will not know for a bit, but......

    If it works for Phoenix, then it MIGHT just work for Spirit.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  67. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Spirit is stuck in the sand and can't rock itself free; because it's not moving, sand and dust is collecting on the solar panels; winter is coming on Mars, making the solar energy that much weaker anyway.

    Can't they just call MAA (Martian Automobile Association)?

  68. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Where I was coming from is that other people are seriously suggesting some kind of panel-cleaning device -- which on its face isn't ridiculous, though the occasional suggestion that NASA never even thought of it kinda is. So I took your comment as giving a humorous specific example of the serious general concept. I've been known to mix humor and seriousness myself from time to time (though never before driving or operating heavy machinery).

    Humor for its own sake is cool too. :)

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  69. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Chris+Burke · · Score: 1

    Oh good point. I'd forgotten that the chance for Phoenix to rise from its ashes so to speak hadn't come to pass yet. Sorry for prematurely assuming its demise. Here's hoping, then!

    --

    The enemies of Democracy are
  70. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    That would be a great thing to have happen. Petroleum is an eventual byproduct of the decomposition and compression of organic material. It would be one bit more of evidence towards at least past life on Mars.

  71. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by WindBourne · · Score: 1

    Well, they do have a program in Phoenix to call home if comm awakens again. Hopefully, it will. While all builders have a certain level that they go to, nearly all build to far far higher specs. There are a number of engineers/builders at l-mart who think that a number of the sub-systems will work again. The big issue will be, will comm and power work? If not, then all is lost. Personally, I will be surprised if the batteries stood up. I do know that some of those board prototypes were subjected to solid CO2 (dry ice) on the side just to see what would happen. Some survived, some did not. So, it will depend on who made the joints and how alert were they.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  72. Anonymous Coward. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am old and have nothing to lose. Send me up there and I will pick it up and move it to a better place. At that time it can take pictures of me passing away in total bliss.

  73. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I wonder what the creationist community would be shitting in that case :)

  74. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by quanticle · · Score: 1

    Well, in addition to square footage, you need a way to keep the panels clean. The reason Spirit and Opportunity weren't expected to survive the winter is because they didn't have a way to keep the solar panels clean over winter, and, therefore, were expected to run out of power and lose instruments. However, what happened was that the wind on Mars cleaned the solar panels naturally. This natural cleaning, combined with some smart positioning by NASA engineers allowed the rovers to gather enough sunlight during the Martian winter to keep the heaters running.

    This year Spirit is mired in sand. This means that NASA no longer has the ability to position it in a way to keep capturing sunlight during the winter. Therefore, it is not at all clear whether it will have enough power to keep its heaters running.

    --
    We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  75. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by quanticle · · Score: 1

    The problem is that actuators and Windex add a fair amount of weight. Remember, the big design constraint here was the airbag landing system. In order for an airbag landing to work, the rovers had to be fairly light. There's also the fact that you need to keep the actuators clean as well - how are you going to do that? What happens when the actuators themselves get cold and jam up? Also, it might not be a wise idea to try to clean the solar panels on your own - what happens if you end up scratching the panels, because Martian dust is much more sharp-edged than Earth dust?

    For all these reasons (plus probably a few more that I haven't thought of) NASA decided against having any sort of cleaning system on the rovers.

    --
    We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  76. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by metaforest · · Score: 1

    What I wonder and nobody has brought up. Why cant it die and come back in the spring? IT should be like any computer/robot and easily recover from a total power failure and restoration.

    Why not let it sleep all winter and check in the spring when it may have enough solar-juice to come back online?

    The core system/batteries need to be kept above a minimum temperature to prevent their destruction due to thermo-mechanical contraction. This requires that the system remain active to a limited degree so that the temperature may be managed. This also requires a minimal power budget. If the panel angle is too far off and/or there is too much dust on the panels, it may not be possible to prevent the system from "freezing to death."

    At very low temperatures some semiconductor materials do not behave as expected. This can cause mis-operation and either hard or soft failure of active components.

    It may be possible that enough of the components would survive a prolonged out of spec. thermal excursion, but the odds do not favor it. Semiconductor components, by their nature, are dissimilar metal and glass structures there's only so far they can be cooled before they mechanically fail due to internal mechanical stress. This also applies to macro-structures like joints and electrical connectors, lubricants, plastics, and insulation materials. Micro-fractures in semi-conductors leads to their failure to operate when they warm back up. Rivets pop.
    Insulators crack. Support structures deform and break themselves or other components.

    There's also only so far you can design in thermal relief before you compromise mechanical stability at nominal operating conditions.

  77. Dammit, Howard by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just pay for a hooker.

  78. Re:Spoiler: Why it's dying; emits one last factoid by awright69 · · Score: 1

    I wonder what the creationist community would be shitting in that case :)

    Bibles.