Slashdot Mirror
Office Work Ethic In the IT Industry?
An anonymous reader writes "As a recent graduate entering industry for the first time at a large software and hardware company, I have been shocked at what seems to be a low standard of work ethic and professionalism at my place of employment, especially in this poor economy. For example, at my company, the large majority of developers seem to each individually waste — no exaggeration — hours of time on the clock every day talking about football, making personal phone calls, gossiping, taking long lunches, or browsing the Internet (including, yes, Slashdot!). Even some of our subcontractors waste time in this manner. Being the 'new guy,' I get stuck with much of the weekend and after-hours grunt work when we inevitably miss deadlines or produce poor code. I'm not in any position to go around telling others to use their time more efficiently. Management seems to tolerate it. I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this. Is my situation unique or is it common across the industry?"
Get ready to work Sundays.
They aren't going to sit down, do 8 straight hours of work, then go home. You'll burn out even trying. People work better with short, frequent breaks taken at their own rate. So long as they get the work done, there's no problem. The only issue I see here is you- first off, grow some balls and refuse to work the extra hours. Trust me, you won't be rewarded for them. Secondly, unless someone isn't making their individual units of work, mind your own business. Or maybe even join in the next time they talk football, you might make a friend or two.
I still have more fans than freaks. WTF is wrong with you people?
Many people browse IT websites at work. In this industry, how to you propose we keep ourselves updated? You sound like one of those irritating prudes who can't understand how the normal world works.
It's the same in every field of activity (banks, everything), not only in IT.
I admit it might be hard to realize at first but you should get use to it eventually ! ;-)
Everything I write is lies, read between the lines.
http://xkcd.com/303/
I'm starting to wonder if there is a case where no XKCD comic applies.
Hopefully they will see this while browsing /. during work and straighten their ways.
I mean, that happens all the time, doesn't it?
The more real work which is done, the less it's worth. As a supplier of work it makes no sense for you to reduce the value of that work.
Deleted
It's you, isn't it. You're the little douche bag who keeps bitching about us taking breaks. We actually have a pool going on how many times you'll say yes to extra hours before you crack. Hey, you got something brown on your nose.
This is how the world of work is. In time you'll fit in. As the new boy, expect to take the crap. You won't always be the new boy. Until then don't be a pain in the arse trying to get everyone else to change.
So they might be working you just don't understand it since you do "grunt" code that requires no thinking.
This is just the way it goes - nobody is able to do the same routine job they've been doing for a while for more than say a cumulative 6 hours a day. Taking a break to say read slashdot (= keeping up with developments), socialising, talking about football (= good for teambuilding!) relaxes the mind and will allow for another few hours of good, concentrated work. If you want to make a career, better to join in occasionally, otherwise you'll be the odd one out, the one who won't be part of the team, and, importantly, the snotty just-out-of-school kid who thinks he knows better that everyone loves to hate. Which in end-effect you are because a. you have no experience, b. no life-experience and c. you don't keep up with developments, whether it be professional (slashdot reading!) or social (talking about football, the families and so forth). So, relax, get used to it and participate as much as you can without screwing up your own portion of the work.
Glad you got that degree aren't you?
I used to work in an IT research group in a university. All of us were single or in relaxed relationships where the other partner was also a professional, so there was no pressure to keep to 'school run' times, pick up kids, get home for set meal times etc. Which meant we worked erratic and long hours. Some days we'd kick back and mess around, other days we'd work late, weekends etc.
We got a new guy in who laid down the rules politely but firmly with the boss. He said "I've got a 3 year old son and he's the most important thing in my life. I'll come in early, and I'll work hard from 8.30 til 5.00 and if you need me to do more hours I'll even come in earlier. But I leave here at 5.30 to get home for his meal and I don't work weekends because I spend time with my family".
The guy got a lot of respect for his stance, and he was true to his word. He'd come in bang on time, work damn hard, not goof around when we were kicking back, and leave prompt on 5.30. We all knew if we needed his help on a project we couldn't leave it til 5.25, we had to get organised and get our questions to him for lunchtime.
I think you should do the same - tell the boss you'll work the hours and you'll work hard while you're in the office but you have other commitments and you'll not be able to pull all nighters. You'll be respected for it. And if they say that this isn't fair, and you should be prepared to sacrifice your life to the job, you should be looking out for other employment.
In my experience, this is common. I've been at both ends. The weekend working newbie employee, and the casual relaxed contractor not busting my ass.
There are a number of reasons for the perceived slack of attention that you notice. One main one, which relates to something you don't necessarily learn in college, is that even in a technical environment surrounded by socially awkward geeks/nerds, there is a necessity for social bonding. It can make the work day less stressful, lead to cross-pollination of ideas, outside perspectives on problems you've been working with, etc...
We tend not to value these things when we're fresh faced and eager to code 40 hours straight. Give me a problem and let me solve it. But the older you get, the more you realise the advantages in it. For one thing, as we get older, our brains require some distraction to avoid burnout. Even when coding, sometimes you need to take a break before the subconscious can solve a problem you've been consciously wrestling with.
Basically, there's a reason management tolerate it. They've learned that if they crack down on this sort of behaviour, and start clock watching themselves (monitoring lunch breaks, toilet breaks, net usage, phone usage, etc...) the company suffers. Either because humans will strive to find ways around rules they perceive as unnecessarily restrictive, or the really talented guys get depressed and move somewhere else.
My 40 hour working week these days is very different to my 80 hour working week 15 years ago. I may not produce as much code, solve as many bugs, etc... But I have a good idea of everything that's going on in my department. I am regularly asked for advise by colleagues on technical matters. I know which of my co-workers are good people, who are the experts and in which fields, and which are assholes. I know who can be relied upon, and who can rely on me. Basically, I'm better at being able to bring my years of experience to bear on different problems. And that doesn't require me to knuckle down and concentrate fully on these problems for 40 hours in isolation.
Having worked in numerous fields (probably more than the IT workers who have thus far replied) I can say without a doubt that IT consists of the biggest bunch of slackers I've ever in my life seen. I enjoy it quite a bit, but I'm actually getting to a point where I'm starting to feel a little guilty. But only a little.
Jesus was all right but his disciples were thick and ordinary. -John Lennon
I know, I've been asked if I'm feeling okay by colleagues when seemingly all I did was to stare into the empty space, at the window or someplace else. In reality, I was working more efficiently than most of them, preferring to think about a problem before I try to implement a solution for it. Probably 90% of the work I do is designing a good architecture, making sure it's fast, scalable, robust, flexible and maintainable enough. This requires weighting dozens of different factors and thinking about a lot of "action at a distance" kind of problems.
I love my job. I would do it even if I wouldn't receive financial compensation for it. One drawback is that you can't really work office hours with it, it's hard to switch off iterating a problem in the back of your mind (resulting in several House-esque moments of some totally unrelated thing reminding me to a neat concept that helps me implement an elegant solution).
I guess the point is, different people work differently. Yeah, if someone's browsing for porn or looking at bash.org, they are probably not doing anything useful, but taking a break or if someone looks like he's idling, it's not always the case that they are not doing anything productive.
It takes a man to suffer ignorance and smile
Be yourself no matter what they say
I've been on both sides of this, as a developer and as a manager: first off, its wholly impractical and counter-productive to try and control every thing staff do. The more controls you impose, the more time you spend policing the rules - and all that does is make for a miserable unproductive environment. One of the first rules of a "happy" productive team, a happy engineering team, is mutual trust between those doing the work and those responsible for ensuring it gets done - its a quid pro quo. And at the end of the day, in my experience, good engineers WANT to work, want to solve problems, want to design, they/we get a kick from it, job satisfaction if you will, pride in a job well done. And every single engineer needs "think" time - chaining people to a rigid set of work methods really doesnt work (unless you are working on a production line). THAT said, it is certainly true that some offices/teams are poor, thats the nature of things - and if productivity is low and people are just taking the p*** then sooner or later the manager gets replaced and the situation is rectified or the good engineers move on. My teams get total freedom, the senior designers have the flex to work from home too. But i know exactly who is and who is not productive - and I get rid of engineers who dont pull their weight - its that simple (and very rare). And that never causes an issue with the others, and nor did it when I was a "grunt" - in fact, you dont want idiots in around you who dont do any work. Gauging productivity is the managers job and responsibility - they should be able to do it, they should have a range of choices/skills/options that allow them to improve it when needed. As a new person with little industry experience your assessment may be premature - I would say dont jump to instant conclusions or be too judgemental, it may well be you've landed in a poor office - and in due course you will either understand that to be the case and move on to a better place, or you will adjust. Bottom line, if you're unhappy and remain unhappy, find somewhere else.
Do your female officemates have questionable work ethics as well? If so, then you're in good company!
Is it a sin to spend a few minutes talking about last night's game while you're on the clock for the company? No. Socialization creates camaraderie in the workplace, which ultimately increases morale and productivity. Is it a sin to spend several hours surfing sports websites while on the clock for the company? You betchya, and I'll be the first one with my boot up your ass when I review the network activity logs. As usual, it all comes down to common sense. Our network policy states "no personal surfing on the clock." Period. Do I enforce that to the letter? No way. I have no problem with someone checking their bank account or a news site while they're sitting on hold with a customer. I recognize that employees who do this are going to be more productive and happier in the office. When I review network activity, I always allow a small percentage of personal traffic even though it's technically against company policy. My superiors know I do this, and they trust my judgment. As for your situation, you have two options as I see it. You can abide by your own work ethic, which might not accomplish anything other than being able to sleep better at night; or you can lower yourself to the standards of your coworkers. Either way, until you have more seniority or move into a supervisory position, there is little you can do about it.
... and having worked in at least 12 different companies by now, i can tell you that:
a) It depends on the company - company culture, profit margins and the business the company are in all make for more or less hectic enviroments in the IT areas (and others).
b) It depends on the morale of the employees. Recessions actually mean that there are more unmotivated workers around since many which would otherwise left will stay put until "the storm passes".
c) It the depends on the point of the development cycle you are on. For all you know, a week before you joined people were over-stressed and working long hours to make a release and now they are in the decompression period before a new major project is started.
Also and to put it plainly: as a recent graduate you know nothing working in IT.
Let me break this too you now before you learn it the hard way:
Bullshit. The only reason they can get away with acting like "keepers of the secret flame" is because "outsiders" don't have the tools to adequately measure productivity. Nobody ever told me to take 10 off for every 20; if I did that I would have flunked out. If you can't hack more than 20 minutes of work at a time you're either lazy or stupid.
My advice of the author of the article is to start looking for a new job NOW. Find someplace where the company culture includes a work ethic because productivity means profit and profit means paychecks.
I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
Working as a developer back in the 1900s, I had free subscriptions to some relevant magazines. Yes, the time I spent reading them was time I didn't spend coding, but it meant I kept abreast of developments in the field, which was a Good Thing as far as my employers were concerned.
Slashdot's "news for nerds" and "stuff that matters" are generally more useful, and certainly more timely, than those magazines ever were. I'm not in IT any more, but I'm close enough to it that people still appreciate and value me knowing what's up in technology.
Village idiot in some extremely smart villages.
You'd think so wouldn't you?
I work for one of the biggest names in the business and they seem to spend an awful lot of time trying to stop us producing anything, yet the money keeps flowing in...
I agree in part though, if your concentration span is 20 minutes you're doing it wrong. When I get into "the zone" I can go for several hours at a time without really even looking up. I just don't do it every day
You sure you've chosen the right profession? Sounds to me like you want to be in management, you'll fit right in.
Something I learned a long, long time ago was don't worry about your peers. Just do your work and don't worry about anyone else. Don't go crying to your boss, he'll already know the score.
Turn up on time, do your work, go home, get paid. You'll be happier with this attitude.
You probably already know that life is not fair and some people seem to get all the breaks. Life is not fair. Take it on the chin. Play the cards you have in your hand.
This post contains benzene, nitrosamines, formaldehyde and hydrogen cyanide.
"I would like to ask Slashdot what methods others have used to deal with office environments such as this."
I usually dump my extra work on the new guy so I have more time to relax and goof off. You should pressure your company to hire someone newer than yourself.
It gets worse... much worse. When I was working for a leading multinational computer vendor back in the 1980s, I distinctly recall beavering away at work while other team members chatted over coffee. I felt rather superior and smug, thinking "Well, even if they are letting the side down, I am making sure the work gets done".
You could have knocked me over with a feather when, at my next review, my supervisor criticized me sharply for my anti-social behaviour. He told me I should relax, chat more with the others, and generally be more human. The strong implication was that I had actually been undermining morale by failing to socialize and, perhaps, by making some of the others feel guilty.
As time went by, I found it tempting and easy to start slacking myself - especially if I was getting no credit, but actually harming my career prospects, by working flat out all shift (and sometimes several hours beyond).
That's how Wally came to be the way he is today!
I am sure that there are many other solipsists out there.
As opposed to some user id and account based upon a throw away email address?
Someone with a UID under 100,000 probably isn't considering the address a throw-away, on account of their UID being from pre-dotcom bust... and boom. Or, at least, close to it.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
...and we'll see what he says then. It always looks different when you're outside looking in. Talk to us after your first layoff kiddo.
"If you want to know what happens to you when you die, go look at some dead stuff."
Ask the people at your workplace. I keep an eye on various relevant technical and social issues with Slashdot, and it keeps me on my toes to chat with sharp people here who know about other fields. A certain amount of slack at work while my code is compiling or my brain is working on other fields seems harmless, and I normally put in plenty of after hours work to cover any missed worktime. Conversely, you may be right about people slacking off: it can be due to many reasons, such as genuine frustration at not being allowed to do anything useful or watching their good ideas being thrown out by an incompetent manager.
Also, IT work is often like firefighting. You spend a lot of time cooking meals and reading magazines and keeping yourself and your equipment fit, and then at disaster time you and your equipment are supposed to go all out with skills and _plans_ to fix things and recover data. That on-call time can be valuable, too.
I'm sure this will probably be an unpopular comment.. but it starts from the Top. I've recently joined a large investment bank in London (transferred back from the US) and it's IT dept 'was' run in a very similar manor. Lots of screwing around, no customer focus and a second-rate service. If management are willing to tolerate it, and are not willing to put in the extra hours/effort to fix the culture of the department, nothing will change. I'm management and it's a continual up-hill struggle to motivate not only the team, but also the other managers. Happy to report though, we're making progress. If i were the grad, either work your ass off to rise above the clutter, or ride the wave of bone-idol. Good luck!
www.redcu.be
If everybody worked hard for 40 hours a week, 25% of the working population could do 100% of the work, and we'd have a 75% unemployment rate. Or 75% of the population in marketing.
Go green: turn off your refrigerator.
We were openly encouraged by the boss -- a lesser geek himself -- to use company time and equipment to screw off. To his perspective, if it encouraged loyalty and relaxation while dealing with tough projects, so be it.
I've seen some very tightly wound geeks in my time. Especially among the talented ones. I think if a business has to err on this issue, it's probably wiser to err on the side of relaxation.
I scream. You scream. I assume that means we're both acquainted with the problem. We proceed.
http://xkcd.com/303/
You called it!
'You are in no position to comment, being the new guy.' Although it will be of practically no use telling you this here it is. (I was just as bad in my opening days of corperate employment, and after 15 years in the workforce am only just coming to this conclusion) :
Working hard for your corperate overlords is an excercise in futility, a waste of time akin trying to keep small children and pets amused and content for long periods of time or trying to staunch a sucking chest wound with a paper towel... An ultimately useless and never-ending chore.
Unlike small children and pets these cogs in the corporate machine will keeping sucking the life and productivity out of you until your 'career' becomes a war of attrition to keep providing more justification for your existence in their machine. When you eventually and inevitably fail at that, your career will be chalked up as unnecessary overhead and your job will be shipped to the next person (or continent) that will do your job cheaper even if less effectively.
Concentrate on honing your own skills and becoming competent in your craft so that when that time comes you can either start your own business, or move onto another job...
Working hard for other people is at this point an excercise in futility because corporate entities no longer have loyalty to their people but to an ideal of a pursuing a profit at any cost for as long as it takes them to sell and get out, or until mismanagement and egotism drives it under before it can meet that end.
Serve yourself first, work only as hard as is necessary to keep yourself fed and sheltered. Spend less time observing others work habitats and start examining why they act the way they do. Hone your skills and grow your own opportunities. Once it becomes even marginally hard to do that move on as fast as you can.
Read Peopleware by DeMarco and Lister, and then take another look at your workplace.
You're entering the Information Technology field, not a factory to produce widgets.
IT requires creative thinking and, in my experience, creativity comes when you think and create a solution to a problem.
The next stage is implementing the solution via coding, building, or other processes.
What you seem to be expecting is everyone bent over their keyboard, hammering away at the keys, for 8 straight hours a day. That's the mentality of someone who works on an assembly line.
If "disco" means "I learn" in Latin, does "discothèque" mean "I learn technology"?
I jumped from the broadcast industry to the software industry once and had the same thought... I was shocked at how much time was spent in hallway discussions and whatnot.
Then I realized most of the discussions from the developers were centered around the code itself and creative approaches to solving problems. The sales and management folks were the ones walking around and talking about football. I decided this was part of the job. But you're right, there is a lot of time wasted in hallway discussions. ...and so, like they said earlier... enjoy your Sundays working...
If the person was a software engineer, or even a coder, he isn't in "IT". There is a reason why companies have an IT department, and then a completely seperate department called software engineeing. An IT guy needs to be in the building to help employees, repair and replace bad hardware, and do general system maintanence, etc. A software engineer , on the other hand, may well be working on the drive, and while actually hang gliding. This used to piss me off when I worked at a company where the management didn't get this: Just because I'm outside drinking a coffe and smoking a cigarette doesn't mean I'm not working! In fact, just because I'm sleeping, that doesn't mean I'm not working. I have woken many times with the solution to a problem I had been trying to solve for days clear in my mind, that bubbled up from my subconscious while in delta (dream state.)
If you think a true software developer should spend most of his time in front of a computer writing code, then it is you who has no idea what is involved in developing great software.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
unless you're in a western country where there are laws specifically prohibiting this type of firing.
at the larger corporations i've worked at (read: the ones with deeper pockets), firing someone is about a 2-3 month ordeal even if it's an termination required offense (with the exception of breaking the law -- stealing, assault, etc). you have to have a written warning, followed by a 30 day period of being "on watch" followed by a final review. THEN an extra month while the legal team gathers and documents everything.
Why?
Lawsuits. Wrongful termination lawsuits, unless you as the company, can prove beyond the shadow of a doubt, that the person was unable to perform the job you hired them for (working weekends, especially if you can't prove that overtime was mentioned and being payed when the person was hired), the person you filed will win the lawsuit. Then you're a) out of a bunch of money and b) have to offer them their job with the same benefits and position as before. And you'd better be damn well sure about it next time you try to fire them.
Work your ass off. In no time you'll be their manager. Trust me. If you want to be professional, then be professional. Work as hard as you desire. It's what you get out of it, not what others do. Get used to encountering an incredible amount of idiots, morons, slackers. etc in the work place. It's pure statistics, if everyone were like you the world would be a better place, however you'll quickly realize there are more idiots in the world than not. Someone has to tell them what to do. Prepare yourself to realize that you can work your ass off, run circles around your peers, and not see an equitable compensation. You have to work your ass off, build your resume, work there 3-5 years and make a move to another company, take your experience and your professional work ethic and cash in on that. Also keep in mind that more often than not, managers are worse because the majority are managers because they caused more issues as developers.
Not unique but not extremely common. Your team is clearly broken and your management isn't being measured against stated goals therefore your teammates are not measured by against their sub-goals. I presume the group is failing to record and reiterate--on a daily basis--the tasks identified to accomplish them. What you need is to adopt a system that surfaces who is working on what, what the volume of work is, and how much time is required. In our group, we use scrum to manage that. You can use something else but your team should be using something as opposed to nothing and allowing chaos to reign.
Scrum is not perfect and occasionally it can be annoying (such as after having a bad day and not having progress to show), but it's simple and incurs a relatively low overhead demand on bookkeeping. We use it because it helps everyone stay informed of the bigger picture by what user stories we're working on. It gives us a visual feel of how much work there is to do, helps enforce who is working on what, and shows our progress within the sprint at a daily resolution. It also helps develop a log of milestones, and improves individual productivity because it strongly emphasizes priorities first and makes it obvious who's getting things done, who's spinning their wheels on difficult problems, and who's blocked by teammate or external dependencies.
More importantly, it's designed for sculpting a team that self-organizes and self-manages. Since your team's management is weak, pushing for self-organization is important. You will need buy-in at many levels, but you may find if you write a proposal with your recommendation and argue why it's needed, you might flesh out supporters who needed prodding.
Doing this will show initiative and motivation. You will stand out amongst your more experienced but lazy teammates. A good developer provides well written recommendations that identifies a particular problem, argues why it is a problem, enumerates a list of solutions, and finishes by selecting one of them. Unless your recommendation is ridiculous, issuing it should give you a boost by showing you have leadership skills. Management not recognizing that would truly indicate a broken team.
Scrum is not likely to be done well unless someone on the team goes through the training, so if I were you I would recommend the team experiment with selecting and using a software development model (Agile/Scrum/XP/RUP/etc). Shipping a few developers off for training, or bringing in a trainer for a few days would be a good idea.
Give it a year. If in the end you cannot cause change, then log it as a learning experience and move on. Use what you saw to identify the same symptoms during your next job search.
The new guy always tends to get stuck with the less interesting or maintenance work. That's expected because you haven't proven your value or had a chance to build relationships. It can take time to learn the system before taking on high profile tasks, but it's absolutely unacceptable if they expect you to work more hours than they work. If you're pulling weekends and they aren't then that's an abusive situation. Part of getting ahead is showing leadership and drive, but the other part is knowing how to play the defensive game by proving due diligence on your part and pushing back when required.
Camping on quad since 1996.
Wow, this struck me as strange...last time I actually 'punched a clock', it was working food service.
Seriously, does anyone in a professional job (I generally consider IT to be pro work, I get pro PAY for it) actually clock in and out??
I've worked W2 and 1099...and I've not had to deal with a time clock in decades.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
As you're also a recent graduate, I'm guessing that you're also single or at most have a girlfriend you're not living with, and have no kids. Probably very few other family obligations too.
I've been there. Got shat on endlessly. Everyone else takes advantage of your situation, saying "I can't work that weekend/late tonight, I have to do something with my kids" or something like that. You're stuck on-call every week, working late 3 days a week, working every Sunday, all because everyone sees your non-work life as less important because you don't have a spouse or kids.
You need to put a stop to it. Don't refuse every time you're asked, but at least once a month if you're asked to work a weekend, you need to say no. Tell them you're going away skiing for the weekend with friends. You have to go visit your ailing grandmother. Even if it's not true. They tell you someone has to stay late on Wednesday? "Sorry, that's my dinner/poker night with the guys."
If a disproportionate amount of the after-hours/weekend work is falling on your shoulders, go to your supervisor. Being a team player is important - being a doormat is dangerous.
When I first started in I.T. my group manager left after a a few months, and they never bothered to replace him, so our group started reporting to the PHB, and he pretty much forgot about us. At first I thought it was great, I was coming in late, leaving early, working on my own projects, but eventually it just got me down. I was doing nothing productive, and my skills were stagnating, so I made the decision to up anchor and leave. What followed was a rollercoaster tour of various office hells and nirvanas. hells: *The startup with lots of work to do but insane micromanaging boss who never leaves you alone long enough to get anything done. *The established company moving into a new field with grand ideas, but which never gets around to actually signing anything off and wastes your time and theirs. *The agency who just puts you somewhere and doesn't care if your not suitable, as long as they can bill for you. All these places drove me mad, and I spoke up about it, and I had the balls to get up and leave if they weren't right for me and vice versa. heavens: *Companies who recognise your skills, and trust you to get on with the job. I'm currently contracting right now, and today I haven't wrote much. I've surfed the web, replied here, etc. But, we are in a downtime, I'm waiting for feedback and I'm refactoring bits of code, etc. The main thing I am doing however is thinking about how to make my product better, and seeing how others do things. And that looks a lot like doing nothing. Some companies are a complete waste of time, full of people happy to sit on their butts and cash money they don't earn. If your happy with that go with it, but sooner or later reality will bite and you will realise you know f**k all about anything. But, the main part of a programmers job in my expereince is thinking before they code, and if your in a company that recognises that then your are in a good position. Sounds to me though that the OP is in a sh**e company though and needs to move ASAP.
Software Development is hard work, so is construction. How often do you drive by a work site and see half the crew standing around and chatting? Fairly often I would bet. The rest of the time they are busting their ass. Software development is the same, except its the muscle between your ears you have to flex. It is part of the job, get used to it. There will be idle time, you will need to decompress.
I used to kill myself. Work my ass off. I accepted excuses as to why I couldn't get a raise or a promotion even though I was told I earned one. People I learned were making big bonuses were telling me there was no money for bonuses. Then the excuses started to pile up year after year and I watched other people who worked less and had less responsibility get paid more because they were not IT. I watched it happen to all my co-workers too so I know it wasn't something I was doing. So if I can't get paid more I just give less. I'm naturally a hard worker so I had to train myself but now I'm happy to say I am taking advantage of the fucking parasites who were ever so happy to take advantage of me. It's not a good relationship or the one I would have chosen but at least I'm no longer the bitch. I'd type more but I got in late so it's almost time for my coffee break.
Most managers do not realize that writing code is a *CREATIVE* endeavour...it's not an matter of simply putting parts together like a worker on an assembly line! Some of my best coding was done at 3 am, all the lights out except for my monitor, stereo blasting Ministry's Psalm 69 at just under ear-bleed levels. Most people couldn't code in that environment, in fact, most people would have a hard time even *thinking* in that environment...but for me, it was pure code heaven.
ttyl
Farrell
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If the person was a software engineer, or even a coder, he isn't in "IT". There is a reason why companies have an IT department, and then a completely seperate department called software engineeing. An IT guy needs to be in the building to help employees, repair and replace bad hardware, and do general system maintanence, etc. A software engineer , on the other hand, may well be working on the drive, and while actually hang gliding. This used to piss me off when I worked at a company where the management didn't get this: Just because I'm outside drinking a coffe and smoking a cigarette doesn't mean I'm not working! In fact, just because I'm sleeping, that doesn't mean I'm not working. I have woken many times with the solution to a problem I had been trying to solve for days clear in my mind, that bubbled up from my subconscious while in delta (dream state.)
If you think a true software developer should spend most of his time in front of a computer writing code, then it is you who has no idea what is involved in developing great software.
This is honestly why I think being a Software Engineer is more like being a writer than it is anything else. No, being a Software Engineer is NOT being a writer... just they are the most similar in working styles. The writer (as a reporter, researcher, journalist, or just fiction writer) runs off to research things and does stuff that looks a lot like goofing off for weeks at a time to sit down one day an in a flurry produce something the company then takes and sells for millions. Truly new and innovative software requires lots and lots of field work. If that SE was writing software about flying then hang-gliding might be very important research.
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If it really bothers you, either start looking for another job - or join them in slacking. But be prepared to log all your hours - and those of your colleagues - so that when the inevitable gripe comes you can show that you're more productive than your colleagues, as endorsed by management. That's no way to really run a company (normal for governments though). I'm guessing they're in a segment where there isn't much competition. Once that heats up they won't know how to get into gear on time, and will either need an interim manager that wipes away the crusty crap or they'll go belly up.
It's an annoying fix to be in (although on the positive side, people in those types of organisations are usually far less stressed out, and having been burned out myself I know that's a BIG plus) and I guess you just have to choose what you want from your work and out of life in general. Some focus on career, others work for money and get enjoyment from family or sports or hobbies or whatever.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it well worth the effort.
In my office, I see the same thing. Myself and some others tend to be heads down, work work work, but that's because we have a LOT of work to do, and only 8 hours a day to get it done in. The joys of working in a large production environment that is constantly growing
Beside our group are 2 groups of people who work in labs, testing things before they go into prod. they seem to frequently have time to stand around, chat, have lunch (what a novelty!) etc, while myself and a couple others rarely have enough free time to grab some lunch and eat it in peace.
For a long time, it drove me nuts (and still does when I'm having a hectic day and hear them laughing it or, or worse, they come into our group just to chat), but I came to the conclusion that so long as i am getting what I have committed to doing done, I don't care what others do. My teamlead and manager have set expectations, I have my own expectations, and so long as I meet those, then I am content. It can get frustrating when work isn't evenly distributed, but I look at that as partly my fault, for taking on extra work and striving to deliver something that doesn't simply meet requirements. I can't fault others for my own expectations.
Plus, I decided to try and join them occasionally for social time,and find that it actually helps. When everyone is standing around chatting, I not only get a break, but I get to know my coworkers better, so when I, or they, need help with a problem, it's much easier to approach and relate and get things done quickly. It's a tradeoff in time, and I use it liberally, but it's good to get up from my desk and give my brain a break sometimes.
The sooner you realize that you can't change how others work, only how you work, and that some people will always seem to get away with doing nothing for some reason, the sooner you'll find comfort/peace in the workplace. If you really want to fix things, work your way into a TL position, or even just a leadership position of some sort, so you can nudge people the way you think they should go. ultimately though, it's up to the person, and their manager, to adjust a work ethic.
Best of luck!
We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
Call me when you can bill those hours spent in bed.
Ignore the haters telling you to relax and join the herd. They wouldn't know what a hard day's work or real productivity looks like anyhow, so you can't turn to them for good advice on making use of your solid work ethic. They'll do nothing but try to bring you down to their level because you make them look bad or face the uncomfortable truth that they suck at their chosen profession. Look to people giving you positive advice that will let you grow and succeed.
That said, don't bust your ass doing a buch of work for lazy coworkers who will take credit for your sweat and/or managers too corrupt or stupid to notice what you're doing. These people will suck your soul and waste your valuable time during these years when you could be learning so much about how to reach new levels of personal performance. If you're going to stay where you are, you need to "manage up" to see if you can start getting noticed for the job you're doing. Avoid the temptation to take on a lot of small tasks in your current environment. You'll never get any more credit for all the hard work than the guy next to you who simply manages to look busy but web surfs half the day. Get your manager's agreement to break down the current project into specific pieces that you can take ownership of and deliver apart from your coworkers. That way, when you deliver your piece it's obvious who did it, how well it works, and how on time it was. On a technical level, it's also great to break things out anyway to avoid overly tight component coupling.
Maneuvering things so that you can better benefit from your work ethic involves some politicking, which sucks, but you don't want to be used by those around you and never get anything out of it.
If you spend a few months working the personal ownership angle and it gets you nowhere, then you may need to cut your losses and switch to another company. My personal preference is to work at small companies where you can negotiate for better merit-based rewards like stock options, profit sharing, or performance bonuses. At a small company, your efforts will be obvious and your opportunities to learn and succeed will be greater. You'll also find more people like you from whom you can learn at small companies. They'll be looking to create successful products rather than to just punch in to collect a paycheck. Screw-ups normally latch on to the big companies where they can fade into the cubicle farms.
Look at the pathetic work ethic of your current environment as an opportunity to outshine them and people like them.
Good luck!
Why are you letting these clowns ruin our country?
Some jobs yes...some jobs no.
I know at some places, they do NOT want to know...as that often they might find people are working actually MORE hours than are being billed, and it is a big no-no to do free work for the govt...by govt law.
I also have worked with some people that worked that system up, and know for a fact this was the case.
I think it is mostly for security...never really had to do that much till post 9/11 with badging in/out of buildings. Unless you are really trying to defraud the company/govt...they aren't looking at that data.
Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
The other problem is that the work ethic has slipped off quite a bit
The work ethic has been slipping since WW2 ended. Organizations (not just companies) got so large that a manager could take actions adversely affecting thousands of anonymous employees with impunity. As managers were rewarded for these actions, others copied and amplified their actions. In the 70s, the phrase became popular, "Don't love your company because it can't love you back." This is true; the only time to love an organization is if it has fewer than ~150 people. Any larger and it becomes impossible for a person to know everyone, meaning that it's impossible to care about everyone. Since the 70s, the process has only accelerated. To chose just one example, Bernie Madoff was, by all accounts, a decent man. The only people he swindled were strangers, so he tried to protect his family and friends as things fell apart. Had he only been allowed to invest the money of his friends, I doubt he would have even started his scheme. As it is obvious that the people at the top don't care about the people at the bottom, the people at the bottom have reciprocated. No one cases about doing a good job, just about doing whatever's needed to avoid getting fired.
On a more positive note, there was a recent TED Talk about new social organizations starting to emerge. The speaker (I can't find the talk via Google right now) was mostly discussing NGOs, but his remarks also apply to Open Source and other movements. New organizations are being created that are remaining small and tightly focused. The membership is committed to their organization's ideals, and everyone in the organization knows everyone else well enough that no one can hide misbehavior. Because of this, these new organizations are able to accomplish things (humanitarian or coding) that larger ones cannot.
Nothing for 6-digit uids?
You know, if you had a problem, you could have just turned your chair and talked to me, or IMed me, you did not have to post to Slashdot. Didn't think I would find out, did you? Go Cowboys!
It's pretty obnoxious, isn't it? But I still feel guilty about it. I think I probably waste about an hour to an hour and a half. It takes me a little while to get ready when I get in and sporadically through the day one takes little five minute breaks while waiting for the code to compile or whatever. That time adds up. But in practice, most of us in most workplaces, waste a certain amount of time each day. If it's more than a certain amount or if it's endemic, it might be a bad workplace. Watch "The Office." If it seems comparable to the show or worse, it's too much.
I still remember the surprise I had when I first started working in high school. I had an internship with the county government that started right after school (3 PM). By the time I got there, most everyone was already cruising for 5 and I was fired up wanting to get some stuff done. I thought they were shockingly lazy. That summer I had a full time internship for the local electric company. You just can't keep all processors going at 100% for 8 hours straight.
When people ask me what I do at bars/parties, I've taken to saying that I'm a writer in a language known by few. And if I do my job well, very few people will ever read my work and no one one will buy my work to read it.
-- Political fascism requires a Fuhrer.
The problem here isn't that the coders are spending alot of time slacking off, talking about football, or browsing the web. The problem is that their output is of poor quality and consistently late.
If the code was high quality and delivered on time, than the apparent slacking behaviour could go on indefinitely unnoticed. Or who knows, perhaps even noticed. But when somebody in upper management walks through and questions the slacking, the direct manager would be in a position to say "the code is good and is delivered on time." Ask the same question now, and the direct manager would have no defense.
Situations like this can not go on indefinitely. The quality of work may improve (unlikely) and this will no longer be a problem. Management may lay down the law and put a stop to the slacking (somewhat likely). Your customers may get fed up with a poor quality product (quite likely) and take their business elsewhere putting you and your team out of work. In either case, don't think that nobody will notice your effort. If you have a strong work ethic, stick true to it. If and when the axe falls, you might be spared. And even if your not spared, some day you might wind up working for one of the slackers you were working with and that work ethic of yours will likely be the reason they remembered you.
Your definition of IT and most companies don't seem to jive. What I've seen is that at any company whose business isn't the production of software for others to use, everyone who does "computer stuff" is in IT. In our organization we have "techs", network admins, database admins, programmers, etc, and all of us fall under the umbrella of IT. Hell even our receptionists are in IT even though all they do is answer the phone. It's been the same way at 3 other companies I've worked for. The only exception I've seen is with working with outside vendors, but in that case since they're producing computer software as their business it wouldn't make sense (since in that case almost the whole company would be IT).
"People who think they know everything are very annoying to those of us who do."-Mark Twain
It all depends on your environment. I have a pack of 8 HID cards (badges). They were all used for different places. There were weeks I never went to my "office". I'd work from home, drive to a datacenter, fly to another datacenter, etc, etc. Sometimes they couldn't get me on the phone, depending on the datacenter. I could have lied and been asleep at home, but said "I was down in the datacenter doing work. The phone doesn't work in there." Then again, all my work was always done, and done right, so there was never a need to question me, and I really worked at least 60 hrs/wk.
Serious? Seriousness is well above my pay grade.
I know a lot of programmers that get screwed by management, but thats a little to much to ask for.
Let me make a comparison. I and another analyst are working similar projects with a similar timeframe. He has worked here for a year after college. I have worked for ten. We have four weeks to finish the project. I finish mine in two weeks at about four hours a day, five days a week. He takes all four weeks, working ten hour days, seven days a week. The difference between us is really experience. I will spend my time up front learning my users wants and needs, while he works on the rock methodology of requirements analysis. (User: I want a rock. Analyst: Is this the rock you want? User: No, find a different rock. Goto Beginning.) I take time every week to network with my users and learn their business processes and what their problems are. My cohort just is to busy showing everyone how smart he is and how hard he works. That is why I read the WSJ, Slashdot, Wired, the Economist, some industry rags (our core business, not IT), and Tech Review at work. It helps for me to understand what my customer needs are, sometimes before they do. Design iterations are quicker and more complete solution wise. Trying to explain it to a fresh face out of college who has been taught just to code is very difficult.
In God we trust, all others require data.
Companies have shown they have no loyalty to employees.
You can work hard, invent new ideas, and then as the company is profitable, they lay you off and bring in a college grad.
The people that work hard and those that do not get very similar outcomes ( tho I do think hard workers who are "lucky" to fix a problem important to the right manager get better results- so it's a percentage game and part of how I got promoted ).
Most managers don't give a crap about their employees. Our manager went to christmas parties and held none for our staff (despite our recommendations as line supervisors starting weeks before).
Paperwork has reduced our productivity to about 8% of what it was in 2000. As long as your paper work is correct, there can be weeks where you have no new work to do unless you slow down and pace yourself.
I'd go to a smaller company, but the option there is 12 hour slave drive death days and then being told by a manager there is no money for raises and "what have you done for us lately anyway" as happened to a friend of mine.
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
They make you set up an entire network while hang gliding.