Full Body Scanners Violate Child Porn Laws

gandhi_2 writes "The Guardian has a story about an ongoing legal battle over the use of full body scanners in the UK. The Protection of Children Act 1978, includes provisions in which it is illegal to create an indecent image or a 'pseudo-image' of a child... which a full body scanner does."

Comments

False Dichotomy

[IndustrialComplex]

Ministers now face having to exempt under 18s from the scans or face the delays of introducing new legislation to ensure airport security staff do not commit offences under child pornography laws.

I somehow doubt that their choice is limited to those two options.

Ridiculous law

[ramsun]

This is ridiculous. Child porn laws need to differentiate between nude images and obscene/exploitative images. Hopefully this security debate will fuel a rethink.

Re:Ridiculous law

[Itninja]

I agree. But having done some volunteer work inside prisons a few times, and having spent a significant amount of time conversing with pedophillic sex offenders, I can tell you one thing: unlike 'regular' porn, child porn plays to an entirely different audience. People who desire it see any child nudity as erotic.

Re:Ridiculous law

[Anonymous Coward]

That's funny. Some things (greek art, for example) lead me to believe that this isn't a universal truth, but rather a social construct.

I recall when I was 12, all nudity was sexual, precisely because I was never allowed to see any "naughty bits". As an adult, there are plenty of naughty bits to be found if you know where to look and so it's not so thrilling any more.

Perhaps this is simply a construct of the fact that child nudity simply can't be found anymore, anywhere, so people who are attracted to it have a lower tolerance for stimulus.

This is also in light of the fact that from my understanding, the image of "dirty drooling pervert" isn't quite as accurate as most people would like to believe. Of course, your work in prisons may lead you down that path to some extent, but I would hate to think of the conclusions of a sociologist who was only ever allowed to study the prison population of the culture he was trying to understand. :-)

Re:Ridiculous law

[shutdown -p now]

I agree. But having done some volunteer work inside prisons a few times, and having spent a significant amount of time conversing with pedophillic sex offenders, I can tell you one thing: unlike 'regular' porn, child porn plays to an entirely different audience. People who desire it see any child nudity as erotic.

Was it really proper child porn, as in nudity of prepubescent children?

Or was it simply nude pics of humans whom we consider children socially (and therefore also classify them as "child porn"), but who are physically sexually mature?

Because, you know, it would be hard for a healthy sexually mature heterosexual male to not be aroused by a nude picture of a sexually mature female, regardless of the nature of the picture and ages of either participant. You can't cheat nature, you can only suppress its urges.

Re:Ridiculous law

[Opportunist]

Someone hand that guy an insightful mod, he's got it. I was pondering all the time what bothers me about this, and this is it!

Pedophiles are a minority. Well, most likely. Let's not assume this is somehow a world of the Paranoia RPG where everyone hates mutants and everyone is one and tries to hide it. Yet we're afraid of a secret pedo sitting behind those scanners and seeing kids nude. We're not worried about him seeing adult females (or males, hey, ya know, some swing that way...) nude, despite the chance of him being (sexually) interested in seeing that being magnitudes higher.

That doesn't bother us? Well, it might not bother our politicians, I don't even WANT to picture them nude, not to mention having to look at them that way because it's my job (shudder!), but it certainly should bother any halfway attractive person on this planet who plans to take a flight.

Re:Ridiculous law

[mikael_j]

Actually, generally speaking most people who develop problems with substance abuse tend to either be genetically predisposed to easily develop addiction problems ("addictive personality") or they have other underlying problems (this is also a large factor in why many drug addicts also have mental health problems (although many of the most rabid anti-drug advocates like to pretend that the drugs were the cause of the mental illness and not the other way around)).

/Mikael

Re:Ridiculous law

[socrplayr813]

I don't go so far as to act coldly to them, but I've noticed the same thing. I grew up heavily involved in the local soccer program and have refereed and coached for years. I'm a single guy in my mid twenties, so I'm also around the age where I'm thinking about settling down and having kids of my own.

As a result of the above, I've become used to dealing with and being friendly with children. Young children especially should be exposed to friendly social interaction for their own mental development. However, because of the overreaction by some parents just because I've SMILED at their child, I no longer feel completely comfortable in my role as a coach and mentor, despite the nice things my players (and their parents) say to me.

I was even asked to join the board that runs the program and said no, partly because those same people can't understand why a single guy would be involved in a volunteer-run kids' program other than to take advantage of children.

It's a sad state of affairs when you're no longer encouraged or even allowed to be involved in your community. If I were a religious man, I'd pray to the flying spaghetti monster or whatever equivalent for people to get their heads on straight. Since I'm not, it seems far more likely that I'll end up giving up on a sport I love and a program that desperately needs volunteers just so I can stop feeling weird and guilty about it.

So, pat down for childs!

[stm2]

Body scanners are optional, if you refuse, you get a pat-down search.
But some pat-dows may constitute sexual assault:
http://www.legalmatch.com/law-library/article/inappropriate-pat-down-searches-during-an-airport-security-screening.html
This may be a catch-22 for TSA :)

Odd timing

[icebike]

Its odd someone gets all the way from the middle east, thru Europe, all the way to Detroit with JUST the sort of device these things are meant to detect at JUST the time their deployment is starting to ramp up.

Re:Government

[Wowsers]

I actually watched this debate live, lets see what the useless freedom hating Home Secretary said on th issue of privacy with these scanners... transcript taken from House of Commons records

5 Jan 2010 : Column 35 The issue of privacy will be important, but all the images are destroyed immediately and the person responsible for the scanning is in a completely separate room, as anybody who has seen the system in Manchester or the version in Glasgow operating will know, so there is no immediate contact between the person doing the imaging and the person being imaged. Privacy considerations are important, but I believe that we can ensure that those who have concerns can be satisfied. I do not foresee a situation in which people can simply object to a body scan. We need to use the scanners perhaps not as the first line of our defence but as the second line, on a random basis.

Now after reading that, two questions come to mind. 1. Why are anyone's images being stored anywhere in the first place, 2. What definition does the word "immediately" deleted mean, one second, one day, one week, one year? Knowing government, the longer the timeframe the better.

It sounds even worse, the person doing the scanning is a locked room by themselves, paedo heaven!

Re:Developed != Civilised

[Tim C]

London had 300 knife incidents on the Underground in a week.

Given I've used the Tube nearly every day for the best part of 15 years at all hours of the day and have never seen a single incident, knife-related or not, you are going to have to back that claim up.

I'm not saying London is crime free, far from it, but I've lived here for 16 years and can count the number of things I've seen or even heard of affecting my friends on my fingers.

Re:Developed != Civilised

[AGMW]

And of course those privacy invasions only get worse, never better. No politician dares to remove those "security" cameras and other "security" measures.

Well, I guess it's more perceived safety than security, but one of our local councils has removed a bunch of speed cameras : Council ends speed camera funding.

So it can happen, but it's almost impossible for an MP, Councillor, or other elected representative to have the backbone to stand up against any sort of "Think Of The Children" (TotC) style legislation because it may well curtail their tenure at the next election!

Re:Government

[russ1337]

and the public should be able to see the person viewing (but not the screen). We should be able to watch the watchers.....

Re:Government

[TheLink]

The concept of the kings not being above the law goes back even further - back to ancient times.

See: Deuteronomy 17
  14 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you and have taken possession of it and settled in it, and you say, "Let us set a king over us like all the nations around us," 15 be sure to appoint over you the king the LORD your God chooses. He must be from among your own brothers. Do not place a foreigner over you, one who is not a brother Israelite. 16 The king, moreover, must not acquire great numbers of horses for himself or make the people return to Egypt to get more of them, for the LORD has told you, "You are not to go back that way again." 17 He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray. He must not accumulate large amounts of silver and gold.

  18 When he takes the throne of his kingdom, he is to write for himself on a scroll a copy of this law, taken from that of the priests, who are Levites. 19 It is to be with him, and he is to read it all the days of his life so that he may learn to revere the LORD his God and follow carefully all the words of this law and these decrees 20 and not consider himself better than his brothers and turn from the law to the right or to the left. Then he and his descendants will reign a long time over his kingdom in Israel.

See also: 1 Kings 21

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1+Kings+21&version=NIV

Unlike kings of other countries (e.g. the one Jezebel was from), Ahab could not officially just execute Naboth and seize his land. Even Jezebel had to come up with a plot that worked somewhat within the restrictions of the law.

Re:Government

[imakemusic]

And they should have to be naked. It's only fair.

Re:Government

[sonamchauhan]

Do obstetricians and midwives make kiddie porn OK too for you? They're not even looking at pictures but at the real live people.

Don't see any discussions here _why_ these procedures are necessary.

One thing is certain though - given the survival of the recent bomber, bombers should now think twice before hesitate stuffing explosives into their crotch area.

Re:Developed != Civilised

[Anonymous Coward]

The murder rate is certainly an issue in the US, but such stats are all too often used as a red herring to cover up the serious crime problems in the UK. Although selected crimes, such as murder, are higher in the US on the whole the overall crime rate in the UK is much higher. This has in part been chalked up to the fact that in many cities the US and the UK spend similar amounts on 'policing' but the US uses a much higher percentage of that money to fund feet on the street while the UK is famous for getting bogged down with bureaucracy and needless (eg asking mugging victims 'Which of these ethic backgrounds would you identify yourself as?' as opposed to, oh I don't know, actually trying to catch criminals).

London, for example, is trying to take lessons from New York, which has managed to really turn itself around on the crime front over the last two decades. Indeed I've seen London police (big hats and all) patrolling a beat side by side with NYC cops, presumably as part of some sort of ride along program... I certainly did a double take when I saw that!

Re:Developed != Civilised

[jrq]

I think it's more interesting to look at the trends. The murder rate in Atlanta has halved in the past 30 years, whereas the murder rate in London is five times what it was 30 years ago. The cameras aren't helping.

Re:Developed != Civilised

[mcgrew]

You didn't specify which city had which population, I'm assuming Atlanta is the one with 8.5 million people. However, Springfield, Il has a population of 110,000 (1/5th of the smaller of your two compared cities) and had a total of seven murders last year. That's 18 times fewer murders than either city you mentioned.

Of those seven, most were from firearms, but other murder weapons were a wrench, a table leg, and an oxygen tank. Yes, this is the city where Alderman Simpson lives.