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$4,400/Yr. Coders May Work On Dept. of Labor Project
theodp writes "To power the Tools for America's Job Seekers Challenge, the US Department of Labor tapped IdeaScale, a subsidiary of Survey Analytics, which is headquartered in Seattle with satellite offices in Nasik, India and Auckland, NZ (PDF). According to the Federal Register (PDF), an Emergency OMB Review was requested to launch the joint initiative of the DOL, White House, and IdeaScale to help out unemployed US workers. A cached Monster.com ad seeks candidates to work on the development and maintenance of ideascale.com, but in India at an annual salary of Rs. 200,000 to 300,000 ($4,4000 to $6,600 US). BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.'" There's no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.
I have this weird feeling that had they gone with American services for building these websites at 10x the cost of using IdeaScale, the Slashdot summary would have read about the absurdly high spending that the Department of Labor is wasting our tax dollars on and would have something about a cursory glance finding tons of companies willing to fullfill the work order for 1/10 what they spent. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. They picked the route that most CEOs today are picking and they saved us from more tax dollar expenditures. Pick your poison.
And don't tell anybody but I think Obama's coffee mugs are
BTW, an earlier White House-sponsored, IdeaScale-powered Open Government Brainstorm identified legalizing marijuana as one of the best ways to 'strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness.
So because IdeaScale built an application to spec for the White House (who shouldn't have paid for it if it didn't meet requirements) and a bunch of pothead hippies turned up in full force to get their message out loud and clear on it, it's IdeaScale's fault? I think you'd be better off blaming the concept of democracy or the buzzword 'crowd-sourcing' as this is just kind of evidence of a technology-based bias of the voices.
You criticize the White House for doing something we all do then you blame the wonderful effects of democracy on a web application?
My work here is dung.
Yeah, job one for creating American jobs is farming jobs out to India. Nice.
Don't worry. I'm sure they'll be billed back to the Dept. of Labor at 100k per year, +20% finder's fee.
The ______ Agenda
You get what you pay for.
A lot of people tend to think that just because the person is over in India they'll be willing to work for a sub-average wage. Which, given regular circumstances, is generally true. Coding is another thing all together. If you live in a poverish state, you can't be expected to know C++. In fact it might be a stretch to say you know how to operate a computer. Those people who get hired for "Tech Support" aren't guru's by any means (and I think we all knew that). But they have been trained how to handle with customers, the basics of operating a computer, and are given a good list of responses. Programming is not something you can train "on the job". You need previous knowledge on the basics of computers. Then you need to learn a bit of program theory, how it all works. Lastly you need to learn the Syntax of various languages. A lot of people drop out when they can't deal with the Syntax. Some people drop out when they can't get the theory. Some people just don't like computers. You can't hire someone off the street and think that within a short time they'll be able to pick up all of those skills.
That's not to say there aren't educated programmers that come from developing countries. Every once in a while a hard working family will be able to afford an education, and once they have that education, they usually fly stateside to make more money. They know that with their education they can be making way more money than 4400 USD a year. So they go and tack an extra digit to that paycheck, keep half and the other half is more than enough to either fly the family to the States or support them in India.
Basically what it boils down to, they're going to get some guy who can talk the talk but not walk the walk. He'll agree to $4400 a year for as long as he can hold the job since he was only make $1000 a year back at his old job. Because anyone who knows what they're doing knows they are worth more.
What's with all the anti-administration flamebait recently? Yesterday, submitted as fact, were a set very dubious allegations that turned out to be false, surprising almost no-one. Today, we're supposed to get upset because an American company that also hires workers in India gets a contract to hire workers in America, and reprise the anger we felt when fratards overwhelmed a lackluster public response to an Obama administration suggestion box with their gormless suggestion to 'save the economy' by legalizing a plant that grows like a weed. What gives?
Socially acceptable (and considered good) living conditions are achievable with these salaries in India. Minimum wedge in "Federal" US means probably some dingy old apartment and living on free food from Mcdonalds.
BTW: Can you afford a full time housekeeper on minimum wedge in US?
BAIN http://www.devslashzero.com
Interestingly thats how british took over india some 200 years ago
BAIN http://www.devslashzero.com
A lot of people will make the argument that "you can't blame people for going with the cheapest option out there that can get the job done". They say it's the American and capitalist way. After all, it's our fault as employees for not being competitive with our salaries. Brushing aside the whole "...while we give these same companies major tax breaks and incentives and our own government won't even employ us to do our own jobs... that our own taxes are paying for", the major problem is that we *can't* compete.
How can I compete with someone who makes $4,400/yr and yet live in America? They want to pay me Indian wages while paying American prices. After tax and other required withdrawals, that $4,400/yr wouldn't even cover the gas to get to and from work. I'd need an entire second salary just to pay for parking while at work.
I was told that that's bullshit and that Indian professionals actually earn in excess of $20,000 per year.
Ah. So, instead of being paid less then a 10th of what an American is getting paid, they're making about a quarter to a third of what an American is getting.
I feel better now.
Hey, I'm in the US, and it's obviously true. It's just inconveniently true.
Our anti-pot drug policies eliminate any possibility of salutary tax revenue from an industry that's worth billions even as a black market. In addition to that, we have to catch, try and incarcerate pot growers, sellers, and users at staggering expense (also billions, when all is said and done).
Pot is basically as harmless as alcohol, but since we force our educators and police to demonize it even while half of them use it themselves, we undercut the entire credibility of our anti-drug programs (which are important for helping kids avoid drugs that are actually dangerous). So not only do we get no tax on billions, but we spend billions, and we contribute to actual drug problems (at what additional cost I hesitate to guess).
We could still try the tired argument that pot really is dangerous. We have to hope not, since a huge portion of the population admits to using it in studies. The Netherlands notwithstanding, three of our last three presidents have admitted to using various illegal drugs and got elected anyway.
The open government brainstorming application worked perfectly. It distilled a set of great ideas directly from citizen activists with less lobbying, filtering and political BS.
Legalizing pot would be a great idea. It would cut waste, generate revenue, empty prisons, improve the health and safety of the nation's youth. It's too bad Obama absolutely cannot and will not do it. It would be political suicide. And that gets us into analyzing the particular hues that the fascinating kaleidoscope of American politics puts over reality...
Either way, you can't blame the app, or the app's developer for doing an unusually good job, just because the truth is embarrassing for the "national psyche."
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>>It's just a matter of time until the United States Department of Defense gets outsourced
You mean like Blackwater?
Libertarians somehow believe that private businesses should be stronger than governments but weaker than individuals.
Good god, that’s hard to follow. There are so many links I can’t tell which one is the main article, there are acronyms that I don’t recognise, and it’s not tied together at all. The flow of information just jumps from one thing to another with little apparent connection between them. It’s also incorrect.
Let me see if I’m understanding this, and make it easier to follow...
Now we hit the first non sequitur... how is the development and maintenance of ideascale.com related to the Jobs for America’s Job Seekers Challenge?
The connection is – apparently – that the same people developing and maintaining the IdeaScale website will presumably also be designing the platform to “allow toolmakers and developers to present their free online job tools to workforce development experts and jobseekers for discussion, rating, and voting”. That’s a bit of a stretch, but okay. (As kdawson correctly pointed out, “There’s no guarantee that Indian workers recruited by that Monster.com ad would work on US Department of Labor projects.” Wait a second... did kdawson actually get something right? At any rate that still doesn’t make up for posting this atrocity to begin with.)
Now we hit the second non sequitur... what does IdeaScale’s other contest/survey have to do with this one, other than being hosted by the same company? Does the results of a previous survey on how to “strengthen our democracy and promote efficiency and effectiveness” have anything to do with this contest? They have no control over the results of the project: they’re just designing the system to take submissions and allow people to vote on them...
Alexander Peter Kristopeit bought his basement from his mommy for one dollar.
$20,000 in India only buys you slightly older developers with undergraduate degrees, five years experience and about the same quality of work. One enormous (really enormous, like freight train enormous...) American heartland transportation company found that every hour of time worked by an Indian subcontractor required at least 20 minutes of stateside integration and clean-up of the code, as well as correction of wrong logic in the unit tests. With 200 foreign contractors working 8 hours a day, the company needed 66 full-time local IT employees just to keep up with integration.
When asked by an employee (a former foreign contractor herself who had naturalized) if he was concerned about the quality of the code coming from the contractors in Hyperbad, the CTO of the company gave a short and surprising answer (really short, like the length of a railroad spike, short). He said, "I don't care about the quality of the code. Do you know how much money we're saving?"
It sounds to me like this company is in for a long ride (really long, like the length of a railroad track, long).
decrease government spending in the first place.
Bingo! That's exactly what this initiative represents... Outsourcing to reduce government spending. In most government projects, salaries & benefits make up the largest percentage of the 'spending' - So if you want to reduce spending you cut labour costs.
You are right. But, I think you missed a major point about the overall lack of professionalism among programmers.
I have an MSCS and have worked as a software engineer. My wife has a BSME. To graduate she had to pass the EIT. If she didn't pass the test she couldn't graduate. No matter that she earned honors at graduation. No EIT no degree. Ten years later she took and passed the Professional Engineer exam. She has a little stamp that lets her give the legal ability to approval designs. She is legally liable for what she approves. I didn't have to pass any kind of professional exam to get the job title "engineer". I have no little stamp. I can not approve designs.
What does tht mean? I can write software that is used to design a dam. Any programmer no mater what their training and experience could have been hired to write that software. Lets say my software as a bug that causes it to give wrong answers for very large dams (used float when I should have used long double...) OTOH, only a PE can legally design a dam. If my wife uses my software and the dam bursts she is legally responsible, but I am not. Why is that?
I used to work for a Canadian PE. He had this little steel ring. The steel was from a bridge that fell down. Canadian engineers are all given (and I believe they are required to wear) a ring made from the steel of that fallen bridge so that their responsibility is always in their minds. There are many examples of people dying from software bugs. The failure of the patriot missiles during the first gulf war and the hundred+ dead soldier that resulted from and idiot not knowing that there is no such thing as 0.1 (one tenth) in binary. Why aren't programmer required to carry around a bit of the combat boot taken from one of those dead soldiers? Or, at least a vial of sand from where they died?
There are no professional standards for programmers or so called software engineers. There is no code of conduct or ethics for programmers. From the point of view of real engineers we are just a bunch of amateurs being allowed to play with dangerous toys.
Stonewolf
I hear this is cultural - in india, you never say no to a request from a superior. Instead, you kiss ass, then rush to do what you can. Yes, it does hamper communication.
"We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
How do we make US workers competitive in a world where there are billions of people who can live on so much less? Seriously, do you have any suggestions? Can we stop bitching dlbout [sic] the problem and start solving it?
I think you are looking at the wrong problem. The problem is our standard of living. We want to have more leisure time and/or more control of our working conditions. We need better health-care and education and secure place to live without working to death in order to earn it.
We DON't need to be competing with foreign workers. You mentioned Jim Crow. It's a racist jingoism that has convinced Americans that they deserve to profit off of the wages of those in the developing world. We can have a better standard of living when we realize that the Indian programmer has the same interests that we do, and that the Indian's boss and our boss have more in common with each other than with us.
You mentioned the high cost of taxes and of commuting. We need to start living in cities again. Suburban sprawl has cost us both in commuting costs and by atomizing us and keeping us from having a real community. It's simply more efficient to live near more people. With a real community, we wouldn't need the state to provide services. With real community, we wouldn't be duped into funding the terror war and the drug war. The suburbs tend to be the more reactionary conservative parts of the nation, while the urban areas are the more progressive.
You mentioned the labor movement. Real democratic radical unions are the only way workers can gain more power. Imagine if both you and the workers in the developing world were in the same union. International solidarity could prevent corporations from constantly moving production to whichever nation has the worst labor and human rights records. We need democratic accountable unions. Not the AFL/CIO or SEIU or the Teamsters. We need unions like the UE and the IWW.
The ultimate goal should be workers self management of all industry. Wall Street speculators and bosses are in it to make money for themselves in the short term, while workers interests are in creating sustainable jobs with good wages, benefits, and working conditions.
------ Take away the right to say fuck and you take away the right to say fuck the government.
How on earth can you call Taiwan a 3rd world country? Taiwan is a wonderful country with often better infrastructure than the USA!