The FBI's Newest Tool — Google Images

lee317 writes "The FBI recently used a photograph of Spanish politician Gaspar Llamazares as an example of what Osama Bin Laden might look like today. According to Reuters, Special Agent Jason Pack said a forensic artist had been unable to find suitable features from the FBI's database of photographs and used a picture from the Internet instead. That photo turned out to be one of Llamazares, who apparently looks strikingly similar to what the FBI thinks Bin Laden would look like with a few extra years on him. 'I am stupefied the FBI has used my photo — but it could have been anyone's — to compose a picture of a terrorist. It affects my honor, my own image and also the security of all us,' Llamazares said."

Comments

Terrorists!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

We should constantly live in fear of tribal men in caves 8000 miles away at all times. It's the new American way.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[DJ Particle]

We should constantly live in fear of dead tribal men in caves 8000 miles away at all times. It's the new American way.

Corrected for you. :) Even Fox reported his death in 12/2001

Re:Terrorists!!!

[QuoteMstr]

Because we've always been at war with Eurasia?

Re:Terrorists!!!

[DougF]

Hate to break the news, but for us married guys, what's in our pants has no freedom anymore...

Re:Terrorists!!!

[daseinw]

It's like we're living in "1984" and news just gets erased from the collective mind.

This whole article is odd in light of the fact that I'm pretty sure the FBI knows that bin Laden is dead. I mean the man was once releasing more videos each week than Tupac until he started toting that kidney dialysis machine through the mountains. Then... nothing.

After all, the FBI's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, also http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2135473.stmadmitted to believing that bin laden was dead eight (8) years ago.
Wait... and didn't Afghanistan's current president, Hamid Karzai, http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/06/karzai.binladen/admit to believing the same thing 8 years ago?
Wait... and didn't Israeli Intelligence also http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2002/me_terrorism_10_16.htmladmit the same thing 8 years ago?

But I guess if you can keep the myth alive, then it becomes that much easier to keep support going for spending money on the current military action in Afghanistan.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[westlake]

We should constantly live in fear of tribal men in caves 8000 miles away at all times.

Osama isn't tribal.

He's medieval.

His family made its fortune in heavy construction for the Saudi royal family. Net worth $7 billion.

Chicken feed. Prince Alwaleed alone is worth $18 billion. No Saudi whatever his merit or ambition can climb higher so long as his family rules.

Do I have to tell you how this story ends?

Neither is it psychologically insignificant that building the iconic mosque or royal palace was where the bin Ladens began.

Osama has spent his entire life on the outside looking in.

Close but no cigar.

Rich List 2009 - 7# The Bin Laden Family

Re:Terrorists!!!

[Bartles]

My sarcasm meter isn't sensitive enough. Are you serious about this post, or is it tongue slightly in cheek?

Re:Terrorists!!!

[_Sprocket_]

After all, the FBI's counter-terrorism chief, Dale Watson, also http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2135473.stmadmitted to believing that bin laden was dead eight (8) years ago.

"Is (Bin Laden) alive or is he dead?" Mr Watson said. "I am not really sure of the answer... I personally think he is probably not with us anymore but I have no evidence to support that."

Wait... and didn't Afghanistan's current president, Hamid Karzai, http://edition.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/asiapcf/central/10/06/karzai.binladen/admit to believing the same thing 8 years ago?

"I would come to believe that [bin Laden] probably is dead," Karzai said on CNN's "Late Edition" on Sunday.

"But still, you never know. He might be alive. Five months ago, six months ago, I was thinking that he was alive.

Wait... and didn't Israeli Intelligence also http://www.worldtribune.com/worldtribune/WTARC/2002/me_terrorism_10_16.htmladmit the same thing 8 years ago?

The Israeli sources said Israel and the United States assess that Bin Laden probably died in the U.S. military campaign in Afghanistan in December. They said the emergence of new messages by Bin Laden are probably fabrications, Middle East Newsline reported.

Oh, yes. The damning evidence is just piling up.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[CAIMLAS]

C'mon, man. Osama bin Laden is like... oh, Santa Claus. He's the guy who keeps on giving!

We've killed his #2, what, 10 times by now? Granted, they were different #2s, and were probably the #1 of some Taliban group not OBL's #2, but yeah, it's been a couple times by now.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[Corbets]

But I guess if you can keep the myth alive, then it becomes that much easier to keep support going for spending money on the current military action in Afghanistan.

If the FBI has reason to believe he's dead and is still "keeping the myth alive", I'd guess the reason is much simpler. They're covering their own collective asses - if it turns out that he's not dead, and he pops up again, someone's going to get fired, at best. So it's better to keep going through the motions.

So many people here forget basic human nature when it comes to large organizations.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[rtb61]

More to the point, lets see what evidence there is that the individual is still alive and not blurry videos of, well, people who just look similar. Past patterns of behaviour would indicate the leaders amongst the various terrorist factions have quite the ego and once they have developed a taste for being on camera, they do not stop. Of course you could say it is difficult to smuggle a video camera to the location of the terrorist leaders but then, well, what kind of threat would they be, can't smuggle a camera then you can't smuggle explosives, fire arms, ammo or even, oh no, Weapons of Mass Destruction or is that Deception, hard to keep track of all the abbreviations.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[hanabal]

see now, imagine the extra work old Winston will have to do because of new technology. When the war swaps over, will he have to go and change all the posts like the one above on all the forums. that would take a while

Re:Terrorists!!!

[jonbryce]

No. We are at war with Eastasia. Do keep up. Eurasia (Russia) are our allies.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[Dirtside]

I started having the same thought a couple of years ago; "bin Laden" supposedly released a "new" tape, except the tape's segments consisted either of old video of OBL talking, or new video of him "talking," except the video image froze while the new audio was playing. This happened a couple of times.

It's been years since there's been any verifiably new video of OBL, and as you say, the guy was putting out videos pretty regularly, then suddenly he stops for several years? Riiiight.

Dude died of kidney failure years ago.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[Lillebo]

But I guess if you can keep the myth alive, then it becomes that much easier to keep support going for spending money on the current military action in Afghanistan.

So what if Osama bin Laden is dead? It's not as if the global terrorist networks are gonna suddenly collapse if he up and died.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[Captain Splendid]

To the idiots who modded this flamebait, ask yourself this: How long do you think a 6 foot, 4 inches tall man, needing serious regular medical care, whilst on the run in the mountains of Pakistan, will survive?

That's right kids, he's dead. The US has been fighting a fucking ghost.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[_Sprocket_]

Past patterns of behaviour would indicate the leaders amongst the various terrorist factions have quite the ego and once they have developed a taste for being on camera, they do not stop.

It strikes me as being an issue of trade craft. It is possible that each new recording provides more information than is intended. Add a bit of additional paranoia and you have a pretty strong motivation to resist the lure of being in front of the camera (or even microphone).

What we have is no strong evidence one way or another. Note that all those quotes use the world "probably." It's all guess work. There might be some really good indications one way or another that may lead one to more strongly favor one conclusion or the other. But without that solid proof, it's still an educated guess at best. And none of that is the damning proof that some like to portray it as.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[rtb61]

On the, he is long since dead side, it hasn't been days, week or even months, but years since the last validated appearance, when will it finally stop, decades or even centuries into the future. Next time they want to create a terrorist master mind bogey man (straight out of your typical Hollywood movie script,hmm, the whole yarn really does stink of it), I suggest creating a CGI character, their impossible to kill and they are available for multiple simultaneous appearances and they wont get sick and die.

Fear and profits, what a disgusting combination, drive the fear so that more expensive security systems can be sold, so that more security and intelligence contractors can be hired, so that the military industrial complex can prosper, so that worthless preaching politicians can get elected, all in all so that corporate and lobbyist corruption can continue to profit regardless of the cost.

Re:Terrorists!!!

[_Sprocket_]

On the, he is long since dead side, it hasn't been days, week or even months, but years since the last validated appearance...

How appropriate that you mention Hollywood. There are numerous celebrities who got a lot of attention in their day who have since gone for years without mainstream attention. Granted, if the FBI wished to track them down, they probably aren't hard to find. But a lack of face time is not proof of death. Rant all you want about boogey men and military industrial complex conspiracies. It doesn't change the fact that there is no proof of life or death (at least, none that is publicly available).

But, Señor Llamazares is a Commie

[davebarnes]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaspar_Llamazares

Re:But, Señor Llamazares is a Commie

[Anonymous Coward]

...Thats the real reason they used his photo. The FBI has been very openly anti-communist, and hes a popular politician. Whats the best way to get rid of an opposing politician? Call him Osama bin Laden.

Blame google not FBI

[140Mandak262Jamuna]

Come on, the FBI agent simply went to images.google.com and entered "osama bin laden now" and hit "I am feeling lucky". How could he know that he should not have been feeling lucky that day? Blame google, not the agent.

Re:Blame google not FBI

[sakdoctor]

Osama Bin Laden now

Re:Blame google not FBI

[MartinSchou]

Of course, the irony in that statement is that now the top link for osama bin laden now HAS a picture of the Spanish politician.

Fashion

[zuzuzzzip]

Yeah right, Osama wearing a turtleneck; Where are his nice white robes?

Re:Fashion

[MichaelSmith]

And he hasn't been near Pakistan for years....

Re:Fashion

[zach_the_lizard]

I have a feeling that he's in the US, probably even working in DC, laughing at how he has managed to be free for years. He probably is working at a StarBucks by the White House. It sure beats the hell out of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border region, and no one would suspect it.

Re:Fashion

[radtea]

I have a feeling that he's in the US

I actually saw a guy three or four years ago in a rest stop somewhere near Albany NY who looked amazingly like Osama, dressed in long robe and turban and everything. He was washing his sandalled feet in the bathroom sink.

Admittedly I suck at facial recognition, and in my memory he is quite a bit younger, but the resemblance was sufficiently uncanny to make me wonder sometimes if your speculation isn't actually on the mark...

Re:Fashion

[zach_the_lizard]

It actually was meant as a joke, and was modded such for a time, but then someone thought it was interesting, and there we are. It does make you wonder, though.

So what did they search for?

[Darkness404]

My question is, what did they search for to get this result? And shouldn't they have checked who it was before they used it?

Indeed

[copponex]

But, Señor Llamazares is a Commie

Fortunately for him he lives in a society where you can formulate political opinion from a variety of sources and not resort to a childish game of name calling and vague nonsensical grandstanding. In many parts of the world, you can call yourself a communist or a marxist or a socialist and then have a discussion about what that means.

Stateside, I bet many people would consider calling the police. But such is the state of our populace: hysterical cowards and uneducated drones, ready to plead fealty to whatever entity promises them the most convenience and security.

Re:Indeed

[aurispector]

Our populace has many kinds of idiots, including those that think the only reason communism has failed everywhere it's been tried is because the right people weren't in charge.

Re:Indeed

[sznupi]

Where it has been tried except in tribal communities and modern days communes?

Surely you weren't tricked by the claims of oligarchies that called themselves communist? (not that it can work on the scale of a country...)

Re:Indeed

[Nikkos]

"Where it has been tried except in tribal communities and modern days communes?" Well, if it didn't work in either of theses cases, nor in any more modern country, where exactly is it supposed to work - if at all? Please show me a society in which no participant has any desire for power, money, or both. Capitalism isn't great, but Communism has only served those who've used it to gain power and money.

Re:Indeed

[Tynin]

Please show me a society in which no participant has any desire for power, money, or both. Capitalism isn't great, but Communism has only served those who've used it to gain power and money.

There are many small communities based off the idea of communism, and they seem to be working well enough. Here is a larger community that seems to pull off the idea pretty well. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rainbow_Family My sister in law was involved with the Rainbow Family for many years and generally lived a simple life of working and providing for each other in the community. Not everything thinks of only money and power at the end of the day, just most people it seems.

Re:Indeed

[dgatwood]

The same can be said for capitalism. Indeed, all economic systems inherently favor those who exploit flaws in the system to gain power and money or goods. Even the barter system. Short of having so much abundance that everyone's needs are fully met, there will always be people who are willing to abuse the system for personal gain. It's not even clear that this would go away even with such abundance.

Power attracts the corrupt and the corruptible. All economic systems require someone to have power to maintain order the system, whether it's the judges in a tribal barter system, the leaders of Russia's communist party, the heads of corporations, etc. Therefore, abuse of any economic system is guaranteed, given sufficient time.

Re:Indeed

[wizardforce]

Where people know each other and are in a group where there is significant trust involved then Communism might be viable to a degree but the problem is that a lot of people mistakingly extend the concept to large, inhomogeneous groups that are nothing of the sort. Small groups sure, whole countries? No.

Re:Indeed

[aztracker1]

With capitalism you can use collective bargaining, what's the equivalent for the citizens in a communist society? Considering most communist societies don't allow their citizens to arm themselves.

Re:Indeed

[dunkelfalke]

Oh, that wasn't the only reason. Add trade embargoes, cold war, foreign intervention and so on - every time a communist country emerges suddenly half of the world tries to destroy its political and economical base.

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Fortunately for him he lives in a society where you can formulate political opinion from a variety of sources and not resort to a childish game of name calling and vague nonsensical grandstanding.

Well, to be fair, he doesn't. Here in Spain, politicians resorts way more often to childish games of name calling and vague nonsensical grandstanding than in USA or most of european countries (thanks to the damage that the civil war and 40 years of dictatorship did to our people. Not to mention the Basque Country, where hundreds of democratically elected politicians have been living (and still live) with bodyguards and are killed just because they didn't support independentism). The way Spain discusses about politics resembles a bit to what you see in many latinoamerican countries, rather to USA, or the most relevant european countries. Communism just happens to be one of the tolerable alternatives, just like in other european countries. Probably because even the people who hate it see it as an impossible pseudo christian utopy. It seem to me that conservative parties in USA don't even look it as an impossible utopy, it seems a nightmare for them. Here you can discuss about communism, but there're many other things that you couldn't discuss here. For example, what USA knows as libertarianism (Ron Paul, etc), which is something almost completely unknow here.

And note that while Llamazares is pro-socialist, he is not 100% communist. IU is a coalition, and while the communist party (PCE) is probably the biggest, their political agenda is very fuzzy. They know they hate capitalism (what they think capitalism is), but they don't really know what they should do, except raising taxes to rich people.

Re:Indeed

[paeanblack]

not that it can work on the scale of a country...

No pure ideology works on the scale of a modern country (pop > ~1,000,000)

Pure democracy doesn't work for anything larger than Ancient Athens. Democracy still has pretty good ideas that are worth implementing in a system to govern a large populace. Communism is the same thing.

Just because the US was in a 40-year penis-waving battle with a country that claimed to be communist doesn't mean anything. Open Source certainly borrows much of its core ideology from communism. Linux, Firefox, Apache, etc all seem to be working quite well for me.

You see the same thing with Socialism. "La-la-la, health care, Obama, socialism, I can't hear you!". We've had socialist fire protection service in the US for 200 years. Everybody pays, everybody is covered, and that works much better than the alternative systems of the past.

Communist. Democratic. Socialist. Capitalist. Fascist. Republican. Anarchist.

Why worry about the labels? Take the best ideas from all of them and mix them to make a system that works.

Re:Indeed

[maxume]

That's a bunch of people taking a vacation together, not a viable self supporting community.

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

"Where it has been tried except in tribal communities and modern days communes?" Well, if it didn't work in either of theses cases, nor in any more modern country, where exactly is it supposed to work - if at all?

They are an odd case, but the Israeli kibbutzes are some of the very few successful communist communities.

Re:Indeed

[Tynin]

The wiki page makes it seem like it is an annual get together thing, but that is only for the yearly Gatherings. Many people in the Rainbow family live together year round as fully functioning communities that provide their own cloths, food, education, etc.

Re:Indeed

[maxume]

(Roughly speaking) How big are those groups?

Re:Indeed

[zuzulo]

In point of fact, democracy has also failed everywhere it has been tried. As has every other political system so far. Nothing lasts forever, and sometimes you just have to clear the boards and start over, hopefully having learned something from previous efforts. ;-)

Re:Indeed

[diegocg]

That's not really communism, that's collectivism. Collectivism fits quite well with capitalism, if it's people who decide themselves to share their private properties with other people. In fact this is the basis of family, the key structure of our society. Buying shares of a company is also a kind of collectivism.

Communism is a completely different beast. Communism thinks that today's human beings have been poisoned by our ugly ugly ugly capitalist society, so our society needs to forget all the bad things it knows, and be re-educated to be good socialist. That's why a dictatorship is needed (well, they don't call it dictatorship, of course) - people should not have freedom until they are reeducated, becase their minds are poisoned. Even when they think they're being good citiziens (say, you contract a worker, and pay him well), they are being opressors. It's neccesary to take away their freedom, so that they don't make bad things like that. Once the state (ruled by a few intellectuals who know what should be right and what should be wrong in a perfect socialist world) has reeducated the society, the central state can disappear (or not: Marx did not really tell what would happen then, because nobody would know how that world would be until it is created).

Of course, our society is not really broken, and the perfect socialist men does not exist. Childs who were educated to be a perfect socialist man happened to have the same defects we, the poisoned capitalists, have. In fact, those childs usually ended up being more anticommunist than the rest of people. That's why communism has always failed and will always fail, it always fails to reeducate the society, and the dictatorship which is supposed to be temporary never disappears.

Collectivity inside capitalism? I think that's a good thing. In fact, it's the one kind of collectiviy that I can imagine. There're indeed many ideas that could be tried, which don't even require to change any law. Communism? No thanks

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

Ding Ding! You definitely get it. Communism doesn't work for communities and countries larger than "tribes".

Re:Indeed

[dunkelfalke]

It looks like you have heard something about Marx' works, but not much and all of it pretty distorted. Never heard of the dictatorship of the proletariat? This is how the transitional state was called by the communists themselves. The rest of your assumptions is equally distorted.

You also refuse to see that the modern society - with all its workers rights, 40 hour week and so on - was allowed because of the fear of communist revolution. Because in the 19th century working conditions really sucked and the society was quite broken.

Re:Indeed

[couchslug]

Communism fails because it must exterminate rights, such as that to private property, to exist. That's not a matter of "labels".

Communism also fails because it inherently facilitates the rise of Bolsheviks/Maoists, who are best suited to killing people who oppose Communism.

Re:Indeed

[Tynin]

Having not lived in one of these groups myself, I only have the word of mouth from my sister in law. When I spoke with her about it, I never really asked or got a clear statement as to the size of the communities. I took from her that their size often fluctuated as parts of the group would sometimes move between one of their several living sites (for a lack of a better word, I'm not even sure where they got the land from, I assume a few people in the group own the lands and allowed the community to use it). I would speculate (since you asked for "roughly speaking") that the group she was living with had between 20 to 40 people based off our conversations and one of the pictures she showed me of her place. I'm unsure how many communities they make up, or if this is in anyway representative of their average community (if such a thing can be said), nor did I get a good grasp of how the different communities operate together to meet the groups needs.

Re:Indeed

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Our populace has many kinds of idiots, including those that think the only reason communism has failed everywhere it's been tried is because the right people weren't in charge.

If you look at many communist states they grew spectacularly despite many abuses in the system. Russia under communism for instance grew from a pre-industrial backwater that got beat down by the Japanese to a world superpower that pushed back the german war machine. Cuba grew from a defacto US plantation colony into an independent state with an infant mortality rate lower than that of the US. China became the workshop of the world under communism and the biggest US creditor holding USD 740 billion in U.S. debt. All 3 of these grew from dirt poor to states with good healthcare and education surpassing others in their region. To say they have "failed" is simplistic at best.

Re:Indeed

[phantomfive]

There have been many attempts at communalism throughout the history of the United States, usually based on religious principles (since in the bible it mentions that the members of the early church had all things in common). Plymouth Colony was one place, although it didn't work out because of internal struggles. Orderville did work, and eventually only failed because of external pressures. The people in Orderville were notable because of their devotion to the whole, and their willing to self-sacrifice. They ate in communal meal halls, and managed enough success to export goods to other communities.

When I've talked to communists in Latin America (since there are still communist parties in several countries down there), I've found it's divided into roughly two factions: those who want to take over the government, destroy it, and force the people into communism. The other, more moderate group takes the long approach of teaching the people to be less greedy, more kind, etc. and expect communism to naturally result, although it may take a hundred years. In my opinion the second, while difficult, is still more likely to result in a stable government than the first.

Re:Indeed

[jo42]

On this topic, my favorite saying goes like this: "In Capitalism, Man takes advantage of Man. In Communism, it is the other way around."

Re:Indeed

[PPH]

In many parts of the world, you can call yourself a communist or a marxist or a socialist and then have a discussion about what that means.

But not in the good old USA. Where McCarthy wired electrodes to our testicles and successfully conditioned our response to the term "Communist".

Its interesting to note that the basis for McCarthy's witch hunt was never emphasized: The fear that a political party could be manipulated by foreign powers to influence our political system for their benefit. Which was a valid concern at the time. But we've conditioned people to jump at the word "Commie" while the political elite maintains the ability to inject the agenda of other foreign interests (Israel for example) into our political system without having anyone flinch.

And now we return you to your regularly scheduled program.
 

Re:Indeed

[Ethanol-fueled]

We've had socialist fire protection service in the US for 200 years.

So that's why fire trucks are red.

Re:Indeed

[sznupi]

Are you serious?! Those communities I mentioned were essentially large families; literally - vast majority of members were related to smaller or larger degree. It was a natural state for our species for quite some time.

That it worked is only natural (evolutionary pressure); what I am skeptical of is of course whether or not similar things can work on larger scale (depends on the society of course, some countries pull off "rotten socialism" quite well or have thriving local communities, which has aspects of the general idea)

What amazes me is that it works in "large families" eluded you, that you missed direct connection with "typical" idea of family...

Communism has only served those who've used it to gain power and money - and this doesn't help any arguments. It's nonsensical. It's like saying "Capitalism has only served those who've used it to abolish the deprecated idea of money and give equal amount of power to all people"

Look, I live in former Soviet block. I hate those times; even though I hardly remember them, they managed to impact me in significant way. But we never had communism here.

Re:Indeed

[wisnoskij]

Indeed.
Most people definition of Communist government is "an evil and tyrannical government", which is pretty ridiculous.
It is amazing if you actually know what socialism or communism means, how often you hear anti socialism/communism people advocate socialism/communism ideas in complete ignorance.

Re:Indeed

[wisnoskij]

well this is this little communist community, you might have heard of it. it is called China.
Now China might not be the most loved country in the world but it is pretty hard to objectively rate a country. But whatever you might have to say about China it is one of the most powerful countries in the world.

Re:Indeed

[Bartles]

Dont forget Jonestown.

Re:Indeed

[TapeCutter]

Exactly! In any social structure, be it a government or a suicide cult, there is always a tug of war between self interest and the greater good. When one side pulls hard enough to unbalance the other everyone suffers.

Re:Indeed

[aurispector]

They certainly are one of the most powerful counties. They really took off when they embraced capitalism. Back when they tried collective farming & such under Mao during the cultural revolution (you know, REAL communism) millions starved.

What they have now is totalitarian capitalism. Worst of both worlds.

Re:Indeed

[aurispector]

"China became the workshop of the world under communism..."

No, they became workshop to the world when they embraced capitalism. When they tried collective farming & such during the cultural revolution millions starved. Pretty much the same happened in Russia. In all 3 countries you have incredible amounts of poverty, shortages of goods, etc.. I recall my neighbor's sister visiting from East Germany back in the early 80's. I took her a decade just to get permission to make the trip. She literally cried when she went into a supermarket and saw the shelves overflowing with goods.

People that look at communism with rose colored glasses ignore the incredible tyranny and abuses. To say they succeeded is incredibly stupid at best.

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

What a coincidence that the Rainbow Family has been the most successful in the US... a nation that is not communist. Also consider the nature of communism and National Government. They don't mix well. When you do mix them, you end up with some kind of feudalism. Communism only works as intended in communes..small communities. Guess what? North America was colonized by communes. Our founding fathers set forth the framework of this Nation, the USA, not to uphold Capitalism, but Freedom. Our founding fathers saw Freedom as the natural order of things and vice verse. To have a society of free people, you must have a free market. Capitalism is the usual, natural culture of a Free Market. However, a free market does not exclude nor prevent the existence of a commune or communism. A free market is the only place true communism can thrive.

Like so many things, it is not pure, true, or real if it is forced.

That being said, No, our Great Experiment is not turning out well. We are slowly but surely slipping into some kind of feudalism ourselves due to a pop-culture of ignorance, entitlement, complacency, and popularity.

Re:Indeed

[GiveBenADollar]

Look at Russia. They went from a monarchy where the ruling class lived in luxury while the peasants lived as peasants. Then they moved to communism where the ruling class changed, but now they also controlled every aspect of society 'for the good of the people' while the workers lived as peasants. Then they changed to democracy. Wohoo. Now the ruling class was still living in luxury, the common citizens were still living in the same general conditions.

The problem comes when the ruling class in whatever form of government uses their power to keep themselves as the ruling class. In a monarchy you kill anyone who opposes you. In communism you kill anyone who opposes you and teach everyone why you are doing everything for their own good. In democracy you enact laws to keep yourself and your buddies wealthy and in positions of power.

Democracy != Capitalism that's the problem. Look at the RIAA for example. The free market and capitalism dictate that the RIAA should not exist anymore. Their market strategies are outdated, they overcharge for their product, and they tell the consumer what to purchase by controlling what reaches radio. They survive because they have laws enacted to protect their wealth. When people/companies use the government to be their strong arm to squash the competition everyone loses.

Out of all of this, only democracy gives the citizens a voice to change the ruling class, all other forms of government require revolution. And although much bad is said about capitalism, name me another system where at it's pure form the individual is rewarded for productivity and punished for laziness.

Re:Indeed

[bendodge]

Indeed. Last year I talked for a while with a friend from the Forest Service in Pinedale, NV. It was sometime in late June, and he was telling me how horrible these gatherings are. He said in short, that they came in in VW busses and set up camp in the forest, without proper sanitation, garbage collection, etc. He said they were mostly drugged up constantly, many were naked, and they came into town and got into fights with the locals, shoplifted, and did such things as urinate on produce (so the shop owners would throw it away and they could collect and boil it) and generally spooked everyone.

He complained mainly that they had no real provisions, and it was his duty as a government employee to make sure they didn't die of poor sanitation, lack of water, medical emergencies, etc. It was also a tremendous financial burden on the local governments.

My personal opinion of the "rainbow people" is very low. Now, I know this is one-sided, but I'm more inclined to believe a hardworking family man who's been working there for years than a bunch of neo-hippies who wander around causing trouble.

He also said they left a terrible mess and destroyed large patches of ground. Quite a testimony from people who supposedly worship nature.

Re:Indeed

[radtea]

Therefore, abuse of any economic system is guaranteed, given sufficient time.

Indeed, which is why inherently limited systems like social democratic or liberal democratic are vastly superior to either communism or capitalism. The only people who claim otherwise are the corrupt or the ignorant.

I used to be one of the ignorant, of the capitalist variety, so I have some sympathy for the species, but anyone who reaches the age of thirty or forty and has not become either a social or liberal democrat (I'm a lib dem--those capitalist roots die hard!) is just a lamer.

It is a measure of how utterly the corrupt have captured the mainstream political discourse in the US (and to some extent Canada as well) that most people couldn't even tell you what a social democrat or liberal democrat is (the former believe the state should yield to the market where there is a clear public-policy reason to do so, and the latter believe the market should yield to the state when there is a clear public policy reason for doing so. They both reach a similar middle ground, but from different ends and with different biases.)

Re:Indeed

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Regarding China I can recommend this TED presentation which shows quite nicely the change in priorities between the "communist" and "state capitalist" periods in China around the 03:50 mark. The fact there is starvation in the midst of a revolution or civil war should come as a surprise to no one and really doesn't say much about the actors in those events.

I'm not saying there were no institutional problems, such as forcing collectivization on farmers who historically are fiercely individualist and the whole quota system is clearly a bad idea. However at least part of the reason for the shortages in the eastern block was the fact that we were bankrupting them through an expensive arms race (in fact the western world is bankrupt too though it hasn't come out yet because we're still on top for the moment and China keeps buying our debt) while also gauging them in international trade for ideological reasons. Furthermore the "supermarket shelves overflowing with goods" is a bad metric for success. It is rather an example of the west's unsustainable way of living: there is no way all the people on earth could live like this without depleting all our resources in short order. Better metrics would be general health, literacy, lack of malnutrition, etc.

One of the problems I have with these discussions is the beam in our own eye is often ignored. The west has had more than its share of tyranny and abuses though it generally, though not exclusively, preferred to apply them to foreign countries and their populace rather than its own.

Re:Indeed

[wall0159]

"Fortunately for him..."
It's not just him that benefits -- everyone benefits when political and social ideas can be discussed openly without hysteria.

Re:Indeed

[Corbets]

No pure ideology works on the scale of a modern country (pop > ~1,000,000)

Pure democracy doesn't work for anything larger than Ancient Athens.

I dunno, it works pretty well over here in Switzerland, population somewhere between 7 and 8 million.

Re:Indeed

[MPAB]

May be so, but here in Spain what you cannot call yourself without being frowned upon is "right winger". And that includes anyone that doesn't agree with socialism. Once you get branded as a right winger, conservative or economically liberal it's down the inevitable slope to being called fascist and then ostracized.

Re:Indeed

[Frigo]

> (Roughly speaking) How big are those groups?

1

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Coward]

.... and if it hadn't been for communism, these countries would have somehow been bypassed by the 20th century and remained in the same state?

This sort of fallacy is commonly employed by apologists of these murderers. I grew up in Ceausescu's Romania, and from time to time I would hear some old idiot saying "look what the communists built -- now we have paved roads in the village, in 1946 we didn't have them". Well, those roads were built in spite of communism, not because of it. The correct comparison is with an equivalent Belgian village -- before WWII, Romania was much at the same level of development. We would have been like Western Europe if it hadn't been for these criminals.

And that's just speaking about development. A minor footnote might be needed to mention the 20 millions or so of victims of Stalin, the 40 million of victims of Mao, and the 10 million or so in the smaller countries. Nazis got their fair treatment; communists should be treated accordingly, proportional to the number of victims.

Re:Indeed

[hanabal]

communist threat of what?

Re:Indeed

[Sardaukar86]

No pure ideology works on the scale of a modern country (pop > ~1,000,000)

Pure democracy doesn't work for anything larger than Ancient Athens.

I dunno, it works pretty well over here in Switzerland, population somewhere between 7 and 8 million.

Fair enough, although from my limited understanding of Switzerland their level of internal order seems to be more the natural result of the Swiss culture and collective thinking process than an example of what a 'Pure Democracy' can achieve for a country.

If you are someone who likes their trains to run on time, I'm not so sure the magic bullet lies in simply changing the country's governmental structure; the Swiss are a wonderful addition to Humanity's tapestry of life but people who prioritise the importance of societal order as high they do are somewhat in the minority, even in the west.

Re:Indeed

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

The problem is that political parties that use the labels "social democrats" or "liberal democrats" may or may not have anything to do with the descriptions you just gave.

I completely agree that extreme, black-and-white policies such as pure capitalism or total communism are folly. But, to give one example, the Liberal Democrats here in the UK are waaaaaay more socialist than your description of "liberal democrat" would suggest. This country under Labour has become a textbook example of the fundamental tension in any predominantly socialist community: those who contribute more are penalised for it, while those who contribute less reap the benefits. Under the policies advocated by the Liberal Democrats, it is hard to see how this would become any better.

Re:Indeed

[Nathrael]

Fortunately for him he lives in a society where you can formulate political opinion from a variety of sources and not resort to a childish game of name calling and vague nonsensical grandstanding.

Heh, I wish.

Yes, it's completely true that communists (and all of them, including Stalinists) aren't inherently despised and feared here like they are in the US, and that they openly discuss their political believes without facing extremely strong opposition. In exchange, however, many people in many European countries despise neocons, strongly capitalist conservatives and libertarians (moderates and Ayn Rand-ite alikes) as "American scumbags" (or, if they are pro-military as well, "fucking Nazis"). "Free Speech? How could you *possibly* defend these racist fuckers? The government is right in censoring their hate speech!" Europe is just as extreme in many regards, it just has different "enemies" and acceptances.

Re:Indeed

[Idiomatick]

Neocons and pro military americans are despised. Capitalist conservatives aren't dismissed nor are libertarians. Free speech is freely talked about. And it isn't about 'defending the racist fuckers', it is about fomenting hatred and violence. If there is a good chance that one persons words will lead to deaths or widespread hatred/fear/chaos then you have to ask whether or not it is worth it. (I'm on the fence for extreme examples of this)

So yeas everywhere has a range from the median that you can freely talk about. The European median is further left of course than the US. But is the range wider? Does it matter that much?

Re:Indeed

[Idiomatick]

Someones sig on /. says:
In communist Russia the government controls the corporations.

Re:Indeed

[drsquare]

How many people are in the cantons where many decisions are made? Of course, the minaret ban shows the populist failings of democracy on any scale. On the smallest scale, you have home-owner associations which are utterly horrendous.

Re:Indeed

[couchslug]

Switzerland has an unusual degree of cultural and ethnic uniformity that greatly aids the process.

Re:Indeed

[couchslug]

Have you forgotten how Communists must institute Communism by erasing private property and killing all who would oppose them?
There is no room for democracy under Communism which is why it doesn't happen, and for the state "to administer property in behalf of the people" it must crush all opponents. Communism requires Bolshevik methods to take and maintain power, Bolsheviks like all extreme ideologues don't give up power, so you get Stalin or Mao running the show while all the coffee-house "theorists" bemoan the lack of true Communism.

The essence of Communism is its ultimate end products, Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot.

That's why I favored the Cold War, including its excesses, and favor the killing of Communists by any state that would do so. They cannot be reasoned with, so do 'em like Che and handle the problem.

Re:Indeed

[aurispector]

You continue to confuse political and economic systems. As a nation, China has been a totalitarian state for all of modern history. Tienanmen square was not an accident and their continued crackdown on dissent it all the proof anyone needs. They only started rising as a nation with the embrace of capitalist ideas that allows the worst types of abuses of a capitalist system - rampant pollution, lack of any protections for workers, lack of any consumer protection against defective products, the list is endless because the only priority is economic growth. Try complaining online about the Chinese system while in china and see how long you last. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press aren't just nice ideas, they're essential to the quality of life of the average citizen.

Your attempt to turn the discussion to the west's supposed unsustainable way of life is ridiculous. Our shelves in the west continue to overflow while all other nations on earth envy our wealth. You assume that all people WANT is a shirt, any shirt on their back, any meal in their stomachs, etc., which is an incredibly arrogant assumption on your part. Who are you to tell people what they should want or how to live their lives? You also assume that there is a finite amount of resources and that resource needs will never change. This is a sophomoric position at best. The recent spike in fuel prices highlighted the fact that there is a plethora of cleaner energy technologies waiting in the wings - the only thing holding them back is the economics of fuel prices. Hand wringer like you always discount the value of human ingenuity.

Your selected metrics of health, literacy and nutrition are actually wonderful measures of the success of western capitalism when you compare the levels of first and third world nations because the first world wins every single time. Why? Because with our collective wealth we can better afford it. The western model shows that people are very willing to work and work hard to improve their standard of living. People who bear an entitlement mentality tend to do poorly in such a system, but then again stupidity should hurt. You can not force someone to WANT to improve their lot in life.

Re:Indeed

[Dirtside]

The basic idea is that human societies can function in a communal state as long as the size of the community doesn't exceed Dunbar's number, which represents the most number of people an individual can really know personally before they start stereotyping.

I've often thought that returning to communities of this size would be beneficial for humanity, except then you lose the intellectual cross-pollination that occurs in large cities when there's a huge number of people together. A simple life, working with the community, but somehow still retaining the good parts that modern technology has brought us (electricity, materials science, medicine, public health, the Internet, etc.). I wonder if it's possible.

Civilization is, in the long term, the reduction of tribalism in favor of egalitarianism. Trying to overcome the instinctive us-versus-them mentality that humans always have, and that is so easily exploited by the powerful.

Re:Indeed

[arachnoprobe]

I dunno, it works pretty well over here in Switzerland, population somewhere between 7 and 8 million.

Yeah, until some outsiders come around. Then you get the tyranny of the majority ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority ). Tolerance? Yes! Want to build some minarets? No. ..

Re:Indeed

[CharlyFoxtrot]

Try complaining online about the Chinese system while in china and see how long you last. Freedom of speech and freedom of the press aren't just nice ideas, they're essential to the quality of life of the average citizen.

I agree, I'm also not defending the Chinese government here.

Our shelves in the west continue to overflow while all other nations on earth envy our wealth. You assume that all people WANT is a shirt, any shirt on their back, any meal in their stomachs, etc., which is an incredibly arrogant assumption on your part.

What people want is irrelevant, everybody wants to live like the Sultan of Brunei. It's unsustainable because it's only possible because of exploitation like that of the workers in China (and Africa and South-America) whose products we buy. Our shelves are overflowing because we are emptying others'.

Hand wringer like you always discount the value of human ingenuity.

I firmly believe we could engineer our way out of current mess but will we ? I'm not convinced the powers that be, who are all heavily involved in oil politics, won't run western civilization into the ground first. I'm a cynic, so shoot me.

Your selected metrics of health, literacy and nutrition are actually wonderful measures of the success of western capitalism when you compare the levels of first and third world nations because the first world wins every single time.

I agree, we've done quite well but we started with a lead (at least partly due to western imperialism and colonization.) My point was that countries who started their modern development later under a communist system improved a lot and generally more than their third world neighbors. If they failed, they failed upward.

People who bear an entitlement mentality tend to do poorly in such a system, but then again stupidity should hurt. You can not force someone to WANT to improve their lot in life.

I don't understand this mentality, equating poverty to stupidity and laziness, at all. It must be part of the famous protestant work ethic.

TL;DR I think we'll have to agree to disagree ;-)

Re:Indeed

[tophermeyer]

communist threat of what?

Borscht. Its terrifying stuff.

Re:Indeed

[Vintermann]

BS. They don't even share a language, they have four. They do share dedication to the ideals of their state, but that's about it.

Re:Indeed

[pjt33]

Pure democracy doesn't work for anything larger than Ancient Athens.

And Athens didn't have universal suffrage. It's easier to have time to be involved in politics when you have slaves doing the hard work.

Re:Indeed

[m0rtadelo]

I must agree with MPAB to a certain point. That fear of the right wing parties to be related by left wing powers to fascims is what made former president Aznar ridiculously label his own conservative party as a centric party. IMHO it will still take some generations to weaken the mainstream idea of relating the conservative parties to something intrinsically non-democratic thanks to our historic heritage. What is more interesting is that other countries under recent dictatorship regimes, but with other ideological perspective, such as Poland, tend to bind left wing ideology to something intrinsically bad, corrupt or anti-democratic (just the same thing that happens in Spain but with the opposite ideology).

Re:Indeed

[sznupi]

I do wonder how more efficient means of remote communication are changing that. It seems that without them it is indeed hard to overcome (evolutionary) instincts manifesting themselves in Dunbar's number.

But we are now able to know people much better without getting ourselves so easily into a situation that triggers competitive instincts. Free software / OSS movement would be one example, probably...

Re:Indeed

[GiveBenADollar]

That's why Jefferson advocated revolution every 20 years. You give a group of people too long in power and the laws meant to protect the people from the government instead protect the government from the people. The bill of rights is not for the rights of the people, instead it is to limit the rights of the government. Look at the wording.

Re:Indeed

[tehcyder]

here in Spain what you cannot call yourself without being frowned upon is "right winger"

As it wasn't that long ago that "right winger" in Spain meant "supporting Franco" this is hardly surprising.

Re:Indeed

[rubycodez]

but they go to book burnings too, sometimes...doesn't that make them fascists?

Re:Indeed

[bantab]

Open source communities are oligarchies. Just because you contribute code doesn't mean you have a say.

Biometrics

[GrumblyStuff]

Sounds like a fucking great combination with biometric data. How are they coming along with facial recognition?

The FBI's newest tool

[gearloos]

The FBI's Newest Tool "Is the guy updating Osama Bin Laden's picture!" - There. fixed that for you.

Re:Wait, what?

[ccguy]

You must be American.

Re:Wait, what?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because he's the individual in question.

Slashdot requires you to wait longer between hitting 'reply' and submitting a comment.
It's been 17 seconds since you hit 'reply'. Chances are, you type faster than 1 WPM.

Amateur hour yet again.

[EWAdams]

First the CIA jails and interrogates people when it is no part of their charter to do so and they have no training at it, producing an unmitigated diplomatic disaster for the USA and no valuable information. Now the FBI assembles "wanted" photos using Google images.

Where does the incompetence in the American security apparatus end?

Re:Amateur hour yet again.

[MichaelSmith]

Seriously, doesn't OBL have 50 half brothers or something? Some of them must be older than him.

Re:Amateur hour yet again.

[AHuxley]

But they share a bank with Bush, so its cool.

Re:Amateur hour yet again.

[Anonymous Brave Guy]

Then again, making that mistake in middle school isn't likely to get someone deeply inconvenienced, embarrassed, or, y'know, shot. Maybe we should hold the security services to a higher standard if they are to be granted powers that the common citizen does not have?

Then again, these are the same security services who IIRC managed to put a US senator and a world-renowned peace campaigner, among others, on "terrorist" watch lists. I guess expecting any exercise of common sense was just wishful thinking.

Sue the FBI

[iphinome]

Does the FBI own the rights to the image they're showing around? Aren't they violating copyright? Can't they be sued for millions in made up damages?

Re:Sue the FBI

[The FBI]

Does the FBI own the rights to the image they're showing around? Aren't they violating copyright? Can't they be sued for millions in made up damages?

Would you really like to find out?

Re:Sue the FBI

[TechForensics]

Does the FBI own the rights to the image they're showing around? Aren't they violating copyright? Can't they be sued for millions in made up damages?

Nope, in the US you can use the image of a public figure for many purposes-- he's fair game. Of course, he might win a case of defamation if he could show generally that members of any significant group he's in actually *believed* he were Osama based on the picture.

His only recourse will be diplomatic.

Re:Sue the FBI

[Kumiorava]

That is as long as the image is taken by FBI or FBI cleared rights to that particular image.

Re:Sue the FBI

[zuperduperman]

Hmm, how could having your photo publicly identified as being that of a terrorist possibly harm one's life? I can't imagine. That is, I can't imagine how people can possibly think this is acceptable. I can't think of any worse kind of defamation.

They used it in another picture as well!

[Anonymous Coward]

Something must be quite wrong when a forensic artist uses google images to find suitable features.

But it is even more worrying that they used Llamazare's features for another picture!

They took the Spanish PM's eyes and hair again for an image of a _different_ wanted terrorist:
http://www.elmundo.es/elmundo/2010/01/16/internacional/1263662696.html
http://www.rewardsforjustice.net/index.cfm?page=atiyah_abd&language=english

One wonders about the reliability of such wanted pictures, when it seems they serial produce them, cutting and pasting from the same image...

Re:They used it in another picture as well!

[md65536]

One wonders about the reliability of such wanted pictures, when it seems they serial produce them, cutting and pasting from the same image...

... unless they were looking for very general-looking features, that display a recognizable trait. They don't need to be precise to be reliable. Consider how we can recognize caricatures of celebrities from very stylized cartoon drawings.

But that makes it even more disturbing that they'd use a real and recognizable person, without his knowledge. It's not that his features matched exactly what they want, it's that they feel he has some generally useful features that can be used in a variety of composites. They're taking a person and turning him into clip art. Callous.

You wouldn't use pictures of yourself to make composites of wanted terrorists. You wouldn't use family or friends, or probably even a citizen of your country. But if you don't give a rat's ass about other people in the world, you can do whatever you want with an image of one without feeling a shred of shame. Worse yet, if there are people you don't like but you can't attack them with legitimate arguments, why not try to associate them with bigger enemies? What better way to do that than to use their image to create pictures of terrorists? You could implicitly say "Here's you as a terrorist" while explicitly saying "The image was used randomly for its general features and is not meant to be identified with the original subject."

It's outrageous, egregious, preposterous.

Re:They used it in another picture as well!

[b4dc0d3r]

I still haven't seen any posts about using age-enhancement software. This has been around for 15 years at least, I remember seeing the age-progression morph video with a disclaimer "this image was produced by digitally applying common aging patterns to the source picture" - later shortened to "what they may look like now using age-progression" and often "thanks to blah laboratories for providing age-enhancement techniques."

Wouldn't the FBI want to use such a thing, and maybe add some "died from lack of dialysis" marks here and there, instead of Photoshopping something together???

There's a fucking app on FaceBook to do this!!! AgeMe For free!! Google search for "age progression" leads to several free sites where you could do it as well. FBI doesn't want the public to know? Contact the authors and ask them to do a special job under NDA.

Next stop- no fly list

[jvillain]

How long till Gaspar Llamazares ends up on the no fly lst because of this?

Re:Next stop- no fly list

[M. Baranczak]

Not too long now. Hell, Ted Kennedy's still on the list.

Re:Next stop- no fly list

[codegen]

Hell, Ted Kennedy's still on the list.

And he's dead to boot!!

Re:Next stop- no fly list

[Anonymous Coward]

What do you mean still? I think it's gone from being a negative when he was alive to being a positive now that he's dead. I know discrimination is a bad word these days, but I think it's completely justified for the FBI and the TSA to have a standard policy against dead people flying on regular passenger aircraft.
 
I know, I know -- you can't always tell whether someone is dead by looking at them. Frankly, I'm willing for a few false positives to have problems getting on flights if it means no more rotting corpses or zombies sitting next to me while I try to watch a tasty sampling of NBC's comedy line-up.

coincidence?

[malp]

You know I've never seen Bin Laden and this Gaspar Llamazares fellow in the same place at the same time. Just saying...

Re:coincidence?

[maxume]

I've never seen George Walker Bush and Barack Obama in the same place at the same time. I've seen video purported to show as much, but we all know what they can do with that these days.

Re:coincidence?

[malp]

Good point.... I haven't seen Barack Hussein Mohammad Obama on Fox News once. What is he afraid we'll find out?

Re:coincidence?

[Verunks]

I've never seen George Walker Bush and Barack Obama in the same place at the same time. I've seen video purported to show as much, but we all know what they can do with that these days.

I guess you missed the obama inauguration then http://cache.boston.com/universal/site_graphics/blogs/bigpicture/44_01_21/4425_17677757.jpg

Re:coincidence?

[maxume]

Correct. I was not there in person and do not believe the so-called "photo evidence".

Re:coincidence?

[daseinw]

Your wish is my command:

Here's a photo and an article of http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/34893608/ns/world_news-haiti_earthquake/ entitled "Obama enlists Bush, Clinton to help on Haiti" that depicts George Walker Bush and Barack Obama in the same place at the same time. I think it's safe to say that this is a real photo.

Re:coincidence?

[maxume]

You think it is real? Because it was published by the MSNBC?

"Special agent"...

[santax]

as in, special Olympics?

Mod parent UP

[sslayer]

What the fuck! Llamazares shouldn't go ever to the US, the best thing that can happen to him is a shot in the forehead, if airport police has watched for a while this photos, he will really seem to them like a terrorist...

Baseless arguments

[bdrewery]

In other news, Ben Affleck apparently died in pakistan

Re:Baseless arguments

[phantomfive]

Oh, come on! Don't get my hopes up.

Get used to it, halfassed is how we do things.

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't have a good picture of your target?
Don't have enough description to draw a picture of your target?
Don't worry, just use someone else's photo from the internet, it's not like they'll notice...
After all, actually having a picture of the correct target is less important than being able to tell your boss, "um, yeah, we did a forensics pic of the terrorist...".

I knew it all along

[antifoidulus]

Finally the proof I have been waiting for, Llamas really are EVIL! Sure they may look cute standing there chewing cud, but the FBI is on to their secret plot to hijack airliners and crash them into alpaca farms. Keep up the good work boys!

Re:Indeed! But its true - leadership is everything

[bussdriver]

Ben Franklin said any government is fine if it is well administered. He is correct.

All governments fall to despotism eventually as history has shown to be the case; Franklin basically stated this at the end of the constitutional convention.

No, not exact quotes, I can think beyond those; having found them before. If you want it the source quotes go find them like I did (well, I didn't have internet back then...)

--------
Grandparent is spot on. Americans don't know jack - its like brave new world; we need a term to describe this lack of civic duty.

Terrorists!!!-Butterfly Effect.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the tribal man I fear. It's the crazies who listen to him, strap a suicide belt on and go blow innocents up.

Gray

[pgn674]

Wow, that is some light grey text. The color of the date between the title and the main text is #999999, or 60% white (with 0% white being black). That text is more white than black, on a white background. The main text of the article isn't as bad, with the color #666666, or 40% white. But still, that is really uncomfortable to read, especially if you have a display with small pixels. The 11px font size and normal font weight doesn't help.

Has anyone else noticed the trend for news sites to make their text whiter and whiter, while maintaining a pure white background? I'm not a web designer, but as a user, this is getting really annoying.

Oh, and strangely enough, the title of the article is actually the same exact color as the main text: #666666.

Re:Gray

[Inda]

Like most consumer printers, this is the web's version of the economy "save ink" settings. These days, everyone is trying to cut costs.

FBI must be legally blind

[Dracos]

That guy doesn't represent what bin Laden would look like now. You can tell because:

• That guy looks nothing like bin Laden
• That guy doesn't look like he's been in a shallow grave for 8 years

Indeed WTF?

[Ostracus]

But, Señor Llamazares is a Commie

Fortunately for him he lives in a society where you can formulate political opinion from a variety of sources and not resort to a childish game of name calling and vague nonsensical grandstanding. In many parts of the world, you can call yourself a communist or a marxist or a socialist and then have a discussion about what that means.

Stateside, I bet many people would consider calling the police. But such is the state of our populace: hysterical cowards and uneducated drones, ready to plead fealty to whatever entity promises them the most convenience and security.

And yet for those who clicked on a Reuters story we didn't see this calling of the police by uneducated drones, and hysterical cowards. Of course we didn't have an intellectual discussion of what it means to be communist, but then the story was basically "we goofed" and an apology.

Sounds like some of you have too many axes to grind.

Genetics

[Anonymous Coward]

I would argue it is an inherent flaw in humans.

Males are aggressive and their whole purpose biologically is to spread their seed and they have some traits to make sure it goes beyond reproduction which is arguably a little weaker. So the ones who succeed in the pursuit of power likely will spread those traits on at least as well as normal. Anyhow, I think biology encourages the traits that pushes males to hurt the system and in a more obscure way, society.

Women I've not seen or read about behaviors that add to the problem; however, I have seen plenty of promotion for their offspring over others for those who strongly associate their child's success with their own or at least make it extremely important their kids get above the others. In this sense, they are every bit as bad as the men with the same mentality (other than the two act it out differently.)

Many legit religious figures such as nuns who live a communist lifestyle do not procreate- so unfortunately, the trait most desirable they may have is not spread. Perhaps they should... and the rest of us should just adopt their babies. Seriously think about this concept. So--- why is it ok for 100s of years to fool with animals for traits but not with humans? (keep in mind "race" is more about simplistic appearances than actual genetic backing.) Ok... now you thought about that--- what about the stupid people breeding so much? genetically diseased people? should we draw a line?

Ok-- so-- we don't draw a line right? Well, then what about the big elephant in the room: overpopulation is the biggest problem in the world today. Limit reproduction, regulate it-- and we bring up similar issues again or at least the prospect that they influence the decision on who is allowed to reproduce. think about it.

Me BAD

[omb]

And now you wonder why people hate the USA?

Re:Wait, what?

[Eudial]

Ignorance and stupidity aren't exclusive American traits.

When it takes the form of McCarthyism, it invariably is.

Are you him?

[Datamonstar]

Is your skin anything but the purist of whites? Do you speak with an accent (from MY frame of reference)? Do you have a beard? Wear funny-looking clothes (again, from MY frame of reference)?

Then congratulations! YOU can be our next international terrorist! But, don't count yourself out just because you look like a white American. If you've ever visited one of the countries on our list and especially if you happened to be photographed while wearing the local fashions (we really like turbans), then you can join in too!

Wow

[genmax]

This makes sharing your name with someone on the no-fly list sound like a lucky break!

Compares photographies

[diegocg]

If you take a look here, you can compare both photographies. Note that the hair is the same...

This reminds me of...

[moose_hp]

I used to have a spot on the 2th page of Google Images' query "los 10 mas buscados de la pgr" (the top ten wanted of the PGR (mexican federal police)), after a quick google, it seems that the photo was removed from the query (it is still on my flickr stream anyway).

It used to be a great conversation topic, something like "oh yeah, and I'm one of the top ten wanted of the PGR" "naw, you're joking" "you don't beleive me? google it yourself" "oh shit, you really are".

spending money

[Anonymous Coward]

Follow the money.

Weird tax laws, weird drug laws, weird terrorist threats...

The bigger the central government the worse it is. The government that governs the least governs the best.

Just a cut and paste job?

[PPH]

First of all, I don't think Gaspar has much to worry about. The primary facial features of bin Laden appear to have been pasted over his photo. Other then the hair, they don't loo alike at all.

What does bother me is that; it takes quite a bit more than cut and paste (and throwing some gray into the hair) to properly 'age' a photograph. Changes to the nose, ears, winkles, creases, and bags under the eyes all have to be calculated and incorporated into the new photo. Was that actually done? Or did someone just put this together after taking the You Suck at Photoshop online course?

Re:Just a cut and paste job?

[bipbop]

You left out bone changes, which can be the defining difference over time.

Yeah, in many parts of the world

[Anonymous Coward]

you can call yourself a National-Socialist and then have a discussion about what that means, too. In Germany, where people actually remember very well what this means, the discussion would be with the police.

As a Russian whose family members have been killed and whose country was seriously screwed up by Communists (who were also, of course, Marxists) I wish those societies where grandstanding as a Communist is acceptable would wake up before they get screwed up in their turn.

"hysterical cowards and uneducated drones,

[circletimessquare]

ready to plead fealty to whatever entity promises them the most convenience and security"

this is true of every society on this planet, and every society that ever existed, and any society that ever will exist. its the trailing end of the bell curve, what can you do? so you don't have to like the usa, but don't single out the usa for the crimes of humanity itself

i'm an american, and i can have an open rational discussion of the benefits/ failures of communism, socialism, capitalism, libertarianism, marxism, authoritarianism, bring it on

oh, there's one more problem with humanity you should know about, that is not unique to the usa: the kind of person who over-generalizes and prejudicially judges an entire race or country, just because of the sins of a few loud few

you wouldn't perchance know an example of such a person's words, would you? ;-)

Logic 101.

[TapeCutter]

Are you aware that you shot down your opening statement by linking to those stories?

The Monkeysphere

[TapeCutter]

What do monkeys have to do with war, oppression, crime, racism and even e-mail spam? You'll see that all of the random ass-headed cruelty of the world will suddenly make perfect sense once we go Inside the Monkeysphere.

Space RFID laser

[BabiYar]

This is nothing. The DOD has a space based submillimeter laser com system at about 850GHz that can lock onto your teeth. It is in fact being used right now in the San Fransisco Bay Area as a demo. Full video, sound, and body control. It can be used for com spy use, "war", and putting voices into your head as words (analog signals.) Who has a bolo meter, you are going to need one? Google directed energy weapons, submillimeter laser, radar.

Re:Space RFID laser

[couchslug]

The only way to be free of control by the Man is to suicide before he inevitably invades your mind. Your are tracked constantly because you are valuable, he must and will own you unless you break the chain in a way that ensures no information can be retrieved from your brain. Pleasant dreams.

Eh no, he tried to confirm it

[SmallFurryCreature]

He claims the news is erased from the MIND, not the internet (archives). He then backs up his claim by linking to past news stories that he says conflict with this one but apparently have been forgotten.

Sadly he does make another mistake, people may assume Bin Laden is death, but they have no evidence so they keep looking until they are 100% sure.

And what about capatalism?

[SmallFurryCreature]

The free market, how does it stand with the US economy in tatters, the banks going on as if nothing has happened, 10% unemployment, a national debt that can never be paid off.

What is most amazing about your kind is that you never can admit that your system has been failing rather badly as well. Americans are like the british, still proud of their empire, long after it crumbled. Nero playing emperor while Rome burns.

Re:And what about capatalism?

[rubycodez]

but we didn't have capitalism in the U.S., we had "state capitalism" of oligarchy, which despite silly name has nothing to do with free markets or capitalism. And the oligarchy merely used the recent troubles to help themselves to more wealth in exchange for debt on the workers. Failure of something?, yes; capitalism? none such here.

Error WTF?!?

[the person standing]

From TFA:

The embassy's Councilor for Public Affairs William Ostic told Reuters that he telephoned LLamazares Saturday to apologize for the error.

Calling this an error, while clearly occurred on intention, is again a defamation. Calling it an error because he's a politician is not better at all.

Re:Why don't we progress

[couchslug]

"You would suspect that after thousands of years we would have a better solution then killing and war...."

War works quite nicely.

Force trumps law, because law is an imaginary construct and bullets are real.

Re:Angle of repose

[conureman]

"the stable state for governments is a tyranny with a ruling class, peasants, and groaning slavery. Every other form of government is just a transition to that state."
Might I add:
"Hot on the left, cold on the right, and the shit flows downhill."
In my quest to grok geologic time, one lesson keeps repeating itself, and that is that acquiescence to physics is correct.

Re:Wait, what?

[couchslug]

"He's a Communist. Why is he worrying about the rights of an individual?"

Pretty funny how the political theorists of Slashdot can blithely ignore Communist practice and mod your post Flamebait, but will gleefully attack _religious_ outcomes in contrast to religious theory. (Che Guevara looks hawt from Mom's basement. Mmm, so beardy and macho...)

Religion and politics should be judged by the results they produce, not by theories have shit to do with facts on the ground.

Re:Indeed! But its true - leadership is everything

[Dirtside]

Maybe the Founders should have included a clause in the Constitution that it was null and void after 100 years and would have to be rewritten by a new constitutional convention. :)

I wonder

[shitzu]

Could we enhance that?

finding that picture

[idigitallDotCom]

But to find that picture, what did the FBI search for?

"pictures man looks like older osama bin laden lookalike" ?

What is the search strategy for finding a picture of the future Barak Obama?

Works well?

[spectrokid]

And when exactly did you give women the right to vote? Oh yeah, right: 1971

You look like...

[DeVilla]

Count DeMonet: your majesty! You look like the piss boy!

King Louis: ... and you look like a bucket of shit!

Re:They used this tutorial apparently

[b4dc0d3r]

http://www.exguides.org/photoshop-tutorials/age-progression.html

(as much as I hate replying to oneself) Using Katie Holmes as an example:

Reference material is key in my method of aging. Keeping Katie's face in mind, I scoured the Web, looking for faces of old women who either resemble Katie and/or share the same facial expression. Here, Katie is smiling with her face positioned at a 3/4 angle so I tried to gather as many pictures of old women who are smiling in the same manner or close to that. I then opened up the picture of Katie in Photoshop and pasted the found images around her face on a separate layer, spread out to provide easy visual access.

Find older people who resemble the person, copy and paste. But they forgot this part, which might have helped:

Another kind of reference I like to use but is usually hard to find, is pictures of the subject's parents. I managed to find a couple of reference pictures of Katie's mother online and they really helped me to decide whether or not to give Katie a double chin. Since her mom has quite a bit of mass under her chin, I decided I would apply that to Katie too.

Hmm, actually based on the results they didn't use this tutorial at all. They assigned a task to someone without the skills or knowledge, and he bluffed his way through it.