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Getting Company Owners To Follow Their Own Rules?

techmage writes "Recently we had an issue at our small company that resulted in the loss of a lot of important data. To prevent it from happening again, we created a company-wide policy that all computers would return to IT to have their contents backed up, and the computers would be formatted and reloaded for the next user. Consistently the owners of the company break this and other policies we set up to prevent data loss, theft, etc. How do I get through to the bosses that when they break with the policies, they are potentially shooting the company in the foot?"

30 of 387 comments (clear)

  1. Explain what can happen by munrom · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Explain the risks, if they choose to ignore it document that they have not returned the laptop to be backed up so that they can't try and blame you if it goes wrong and data loss does occur.

    1. Re:Explain what can happen by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Explain the risks, if they choose to ignore it document that they have not returned the laptop to be backed up so that they can't try and blame you if it goes wrong and data loss does occur.

      Have no fear, I have an asshole cousin who used to own a company. Anytime something went wrong he made sure to blame somebody else.

      So it doesn't matter what you document, or how hard you try convince them that you're trying to protect their company; if something goes wrong, you're probably fucked. But keep those notes as due diligence, in case they really try to screw you for their fuckups. And keep your resume up to date.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    2. Re:Explain what can happen by PitaBred · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.

    3. Re:Explain what can happen by dangitman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.

      Wanna bet?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    4. Re:Explain what can happen by RobertM1968 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you have that stuff documented, they can't screw you out of unemployment.

      Sure they can... even if one is perfect, I am sure there are citable reasons one would have trouble defending against in an unemployment benefits battle. And if the person is not perfect, well, then, there's grounds for termination without unemployment. "Gee, that's the third time you were late... I dont care that it was only 37 seconds, or only the 3rd time in 10 years... the employee rules state that on the 3rd time, we can terminate you. This has nothing to do with that whole lost data fiasco that you documented was my fault."

      Seen it happen. Fortunately never to me... though, I also never filed for unemployment...

    5. Re:Explain what can happen by hairyfeet · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yep you gotta CYA, sometimes you even have to go over their heads but it is a risky move. I have a story that illustrates the point. Many years ago after all those worms were going around I had lunch with my admin buddy Glenn, just swapping stories and about died laughing whe he told me this one:

      He had a PHB middle manager threaten to fire him, so he had to go over the guy's head. So the regional boss calls them both in to explain their sides to the story, and the PHB goes "He has NO RIGHT to tell me who I am allowed to speak to! He is blocking my emails from Melissa and refusing to let me have them! He should be fired for insubordination!"

      Lucky for Glenn the regional head actually read tech journals and knew what Melissa was. He turned to Glenn and said "Is he actually talking about the bug going around?" when Glenn said yes he rolled his eyes and said "Glenn is doing his job and actually protecting this company. There is NO "Melissa" it is a computer bug that spreads through networks and makes a mess, which I'm sure Glenn tried to explain if you weren't busy having a fit. From now on when Glenn says no that is FINAL, got it?" and then he had his secretary send Glenn a free steak dinner for two for having to put up with "that ass" as he put it.

      So yeah I would CYA, but if it is truly a dangerous situation he may have to look at going over a head or two. A lot of the time the middle managers act like little gods because the higher ups don't know what kind of stupidity they are pulling, and as long as he is polite and points out the financial risks this person/persons are causing the company he may be able to turn a bad situation to his advantage. Glenn said he later got a raise and more power because the regional head pointed out how valuable it was to have a network admin that put the company before the dangerous requests of the PHBs. In the end it all comes down to money, and by showing that this person is putting actual $$$ at risk he might be able to turn this to his favor.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    6. Re:Explain what can happen by afidel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Meh, only 5% of unemployment cases get denied due to misconduct discharges. Misconduct is
      Generally "misconduct" involves an act of willful disregard of the employer's interests or a deliberate violation of the employer's rules or an intentional and substantial disregard of the employee's duty to the employer.

      If you subpoena the employers timekeeping records and they only show you being late 3 times in 10 years then their appeal of your benefits will get denied.

      --
      There are 4 boxes to use in the defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. Use in that order. Starting now.
    7. Re:Explain what can happen by HeronBlademaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      suing to get your job back

      I've never understood that concept. If your employer fired you, why would you want to continue to work for them? I know you might need the money or something, but surely the fact that they fired you would create a less than ideal workplace environment, if not an outright hostile environment? Especially if "get your job back" involves working for the same manager...

      I am speaking from experience here, to a degree. My manager fired me (literally because I insisted I be allowed to clean up code incidental to my bugfixes), but his boss overrode the firing and gave me control of IT instead. It was not exactly pleasant having to continue to interact with the former manager - and even though the manager later admitted to his boss that he was wrong to have fired me, he refused to admit it to me, and of course that meant he was unwilling to do anything to improve the work environment as it related to the interaction between our jobs.

      What I'm getting at is that if I ever find myself in a similar situation again, I do not believe I would attempt to force the company to continue employing me, because I do not believe I could tolerate the resulting poor work environment.

      Does anyone have any insight on this? Anyone ever been through this before? How did it work out?

    8. Re:Explain what can happen by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 5, Informative

      Oh, dear, yes. The "unemployment ballet" is nasty. A professional bureaucrat that wants to fire you will record every misstep, collect them into a file, give you a "warning" and a "recovery plan", then do everything bureaucratically possible to poison your work. Simple shock and disbelief at how ridiculous the recorded "violations" are will not save you. You need a thick folder with documented mis-steps, preferably by the bureaucrat trying to fire you, with it all documented. Sign _nothing_ that admits wrong-doing if you can avoid it: make sure that you have counterletters recorded, and get copies of everything.

      And start looking for new work if this is going on. I've had this happen, where a senior supervisor blamed the engineers for his laptop problems when he absolutely refused to swap it or surrender it for recovery, always had his disk overflowing, refused to patch, etc. He just wanted us to "fix it!" when it broke.

    9. Re:Explain what can happen by BarryJacobsen · · Score: 4, Funny

      I didn't realise the US job market was quite that "flexible".

      That's why we have such a strong economy - we care more about the people that make up the businesses than the business itself.

  2. meh, keep it simple by FooAtWFU · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'd ask anyone who routinely overrides your authority in the data-protection sphere to sign a form indicating something to the effect that they've been informed of these policies and the potential risks and if it all comes crashing down because they don't listen to you, it's not your fault.

    --
    The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    1. Re:meh, keep it simple by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      If that doesn't work, use a reverse analogy, and actually shoot them in the foot.

    2. Re:meh, keep it simple by Fujisawa+Sensei · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'd ask anyone who routinely overrides your authority in the data-protection sphere to sign a form indicating something to the effect that they've been informed of these policies and the potential risks and if it all comes crashing down because they don't listen to you, it's not your fault.

      If they have the authority to routinely ignore / override your security policies, they don't have to sign the fucking form either.

      --
      If someone is passing you on the right, you are an asshole for driving in the wrong lane.
    3. Re:meh, keep it simple by Cyner · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If you honestly work at a business where the boss both ignores your expert opinion and refuses to acknowledge their contempt for business continuity planning, you should probably be looking for employment elsewhere. You're never going anywhere in that business environment, and the business itself is likely never going anywhere positive either. Unemployment sucks (and I've been there), but a dead-end job can be worse (stress in the short-term, and employability in the long term).

      --
      FreeBSD.org - The power to serve
  3. Who signs the checks? by ghetto2ivy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If they do -- shut up and work around it.

    1. Re:Who signs the checks? by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Parent wins the thread. Hack their laptops, and script the fuckers the back themselves up. Sheesh.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
  4. I don't get it... by HockeyPuck · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So you're going to take my laptop, back it up, reload it and give it to the next guy? I in turn will get someone else's formatted laptop?

    Or are you just trying to say, "we lost a lot of data when someone's laptop failed without proper backup processes in place. So we've decided that everyone needs to regularly connect to the company network and back up their laptop. The owner's of the company never back up their laptop"?

  5. You don't by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Quite simply, you don't. I've worked at large banks that do not follow their own rules. IT cannot drive policy if C level executives do not want to follow the policy. If you can get auditors or examiners to force the policy to be followed, then it can work. Otherwise, IT cannot do anything. They will only be seen as chicken little and IT will lose what little standing they have at the company already.

  6. Assign it a cost by hedronist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    See if you can assign a value to the data already lost because of their failure to follow the rules. We did a variation of this at Xerox ASD in the 70's and locked Charles Simonyi (yes, that Charles) out of "his" own source code.

    1. Re:Assign it a cost by Tablizer · · Score: 5, Funny

      It put Xerox behind and prevented them from releasing the GUI in 1977, delaying the computer industry and the would-be 2008 CAD design of the first practical flying car. Remember that anal stunt the next time you are stuck in traffic.

    2. Re:Assign it a cost by haruharaharu · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You know the knobs driving around your city right now with one hand on the wheel and a cellphone in the other? Imagine them in the air...

      --
      Reboot macht Frei.
  7. Figure a better way by Farmer+Pete · · Score: 4, Insightful

    It's funny, every year we prepare for auditors, and all we have to do is show them that we have a policy, not that we actually follow the policy. It's really quite hilarious and yet sad at the same time. For instance, we have to show them that we are doing scans of our network looking for vulnerabilities, but all they want is a log with someones name and a date on it. They don't care what was found or that anything was done with the information that we found. They could care less. The sad thing is, the company doing the audit is a very large company. The truth is that most management could care less about policies. Password complexity? Sure, just don't assign it to the management. Screensaver locks after 10 minutes? There better be an exceptions group for the CEO and her secretary. It's really quite sickening really. It's amazing what you can get people to do for you when you're the network admin's boss' boss' boss.

  8. You've already failed. by Chas · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You've created a policy and don't have the owner-level execs onboard?

    That's failure #1 right there. Good policy making for security purposes isn't "And IT saith THUS!". Operating in this kind of vacuum gets your enforcement NO PLACE. Fast!

    You have to involve these people pretty much from the get-go. This way they understand why the policy is in place and have less self-provided incentive to circumvent it.

    And yes, as others have said, a small amount of "horror story" can go a long way too. But only DURING the policy creation process. Afterwards, they look at it as simple justification of an arbitrary policy.

    Right now you guys haven't got a leg to stand on.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  9. Pretty much the best way by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I mean you can't make the owners do anything. They own it, it is theirs to do with as they please. They could close up shop tomorrow for no reason if they wanted. So you can't force them to do as they should. Likewise, nagging them could be a bad career move. So the best thing is a CYA. Have something that says they understand the risks of not following the policy more or less. Then, if shit does break you should be covered. They'll either realize that they made a mistake and be fine, or they'll come looking to blame you and you can pull out the document and say "We made sure to inform you of the risks and you signed off saying you understood them and that it was up to you if you chose not to follow them."

    That's the best you can do.

    1. Re:Pretty much the best way by nine-times · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not only is it true tat you can't make the owners do anything, but it's even very possible that doing the right thing isn't necessarily going to protect you. You could follow very sensible procedures and CYA with all kinds of documentation, and if the owners are petty and childish enough, they might still fire you or at least make your life a living hell.

      That said, I think it's important that you find a way to be very very clear with the owners about what you believe the consequences to their actions will be. Do it in writing if possible. Be polite and respectful, but don't be subtle. The more vague you are, the more likely it is that they'll hear what they want to hear and ignore what they don't want to hear. Be as clear as possible without incurring their wrath. If you have to, be repetitive and say the same exact thing 5 different ways, but make sure that they understand how their bad actions put the future of your company in jeopardy.

      Also understand that they might not like you afterwards. I've known a number of small business owners who were manipulative and petty and they couldn't tolerate anyone pointing out their flaws or telling them they're wrong. If they were willing to let someone else tell them what to do, they would have gotten a job working for someone else instead of running their own business. Even though you're trying to do the right thing, you might be burning bridges. Make sure it's worth it.

    2. Re:Pretty much the best way by TapeCutter · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Rubbing their nose in it with a useless disclaimer is not going to end well. Presumably the policy has been written down, meaning the owners have authorised the policy either explicitly or by delegation, therefore his arse is already covered if HE follows it. You can respectfully remind the owners of their own policy but provided no laws are broken they are free to make and break policy as they see fit, employees do not have the same privlages.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    3. Re:Pretty much the best way by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or not. Many states are At-Will Employment. The employer can let you go at any time for any reason (aside from illegal discrimination) and in exchange you can leave at any time without repercussions (other than a loss of a positive reference.). IT Guys lawyer would tell him to find a new job instead of paying for legal advice on such a stupid subject.

    4. Re:Pretty much the best way by jabuzz · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The reasonable period is 12 months in the UK, just like the rest of the EU. It's all working time directive related. The Labour government revoked out opt out of the working time directive over a decade ago.

      Also if the employer is deemed to be firing people at say 11 months to avoid this rule they will be done. I am not a lawyer but my brother is an employment tribunal judge, and you do pick up lots over the years.

  10. Re:sign this by BigSlowTarget · · Score: 5, Insightful

    1) Thank you for trying to save me money. Your recommendations are welcome as I'm paying you for your expertise and opinions.

    2) If you're going to try to have me sign something like that I'm going to have a talk with you about bureaucracy and how we can't afford a BS cover your ass mentality in a small company. You may rest assured that if I don't back up and there's a crash there are two possible results: If I'm a bad manager I'm going to come back at you and no little piece of paper will stop me from firing you (though I'd expect you would receive unemployment as it's not really for cause). If I'm a good manager I'm going to write the check to cover the damages, feel foolish and accept your recommendation going forward.

    3) If it's a dumbass relative that thinks they can ignore the rules because they're family working in a family business (and they don't sign the checks) then I expect to see their name (and possibly mine if I'm doing it too) on the report of IT security scofflaws that you periodically (though infrequently) prepare for me.

    In a company controlled by a single or few owners it is reasonable to recommend, cajole, suggest or encourage proper owner behavior, but if you dictate it and attempt to threaten (for instance by saying in a confrontational manner 'ok, but I'm not taking responsibility then') you are writing checks that your expertise may not be able to cash. As an owner it's important that my IT works right, but it's absolutely imperative that I don't lose control of the company. Don't make me think that you're trying to take it away from me or lord your technical expertise over me unless you have a VERY secure position.

  11. Very few employers win unemployment appeals by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    I fully agree. Employers don't generally win unemployment compensation hearings, even when they are correct. In many cases, the employer has a policy to appeal ANY unemployment claim, just to set up a few additional hoops for the employee to jump through. Most of the time, the employers don't even show up for the hearing. As a result, the state labor department deals with a LOT of junk appeals. Even when the employer shows up, the burden of proof is upon THEM and most of the time, they aren't up to the task.

    I know of a guy who was thrown out during some kind of bizarre purge. The company had a change in management and this guy was clearly not part of the plan. So the company tried to cobble together some sort of justification. However, their schedule for firing him did not allow for collecting enough excuses. The purge worked in such a way that the guy's boss had already been let go, so actual facts of the employee's performance were in short supply. What little they had was wrong.

    So of course, the employer appeals the unemployment claim. The hearing is held and the employer is absent. After losing by default, THEN the employer appeals to re-open the case. The employee's witnesses are subpoenaed and the day of the second hearing arrives. By this time, the employer has engaged some kind of unemployment compensation management firm to try and win the case. Upon seeing the employee's counter claim and witness list, the consultant tells the judge, "Upon review, this case does not rise to the standard necessary to establish termination for cause. We withdraw our appeal."

    Considering how routine these shenanigans are, is it any wonder the employers usually lose?