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Is Programming a Lucrative Profession?
itwbennett writes "A pamphlet distributed by blogger Cameron Laird's local high school proclaimed that 'Computer Science BS graduates can expect an annual salary from $54,000-$74,000. Starting salaries for MS and PhD graduates can be to up to $100,000' and 'employment of computer scientists is expected to grow by 24 percent from 2010 to 2018.' The pamphlet lists The US Federal Bureau of Labor Statistics as a reference, so how wrong can it be? 'This is so wrong, I don't know where to start,' says Laird. 'There are a lot of ways to look at the figures, but only the most skewed ones come up with starting salaries approaching $60,000 annually, and I see plenty of programmers in the US working for less,' says Laird. At issue, though, isn't so much inaccurate salary information as what is happening to programming as a career: 'Professionalization of programmers nowadays strikes chords more like those familiar to auto mechanics or nurses than the knowledge workers we once thought we were,' writes Laird, 'we're expected to pay for our own tools, we're increasingly bound by legal entanglements, H1B accumulates degrading tales, and hyperspecialization dominates hiring decisions.'"
In my state you must have 10+ years in 5+ languages (even if the language is only 5 years old) and start at $8.00 an hour. Oh, and clerical/janitorial experience a plus!
If you have experience, and are willing to lead a team, you can make decent money. Of course, how do you get experience?
Modding "-1, Troll" is not a proper response if you disagree with me. Try reason.
This is one of those contexts where the standard deviation would be helpful, or even a graph showing the distribution of salaries.
I know some developers that are highly specialized in low-level DSP programming, and they make plenty. Also, if you are also responsible for architectural decisions and architectural design, you make more. I don't know many people who are just programmers, but I would have to assume they make less. My advice for programmers is take on more responsibilities and/or try to become a specialist. Unfortunately, there is a large supply of programmers, probably because the barrier to learning is quite low compared to say, FPGA design and development.
That they are essentially mechanics? They're just not auto mechanics, they're more or less computer or software mechanics?
That shouldn't be a surprise to any. Especially as we see more about self-fixing computers, the furthering of object oriented programming which is leading to simpler and simpler APIs so you don't even have to be a programmer to make things happen. Or technologies like Sharepoint where you don't even have to have a GED to prop up multiple sites / data sources, etc.
Blessed be he who reads this post, Cursed be he who tells my boss.
My starting salary in DC contracting with the Feds was $70K. Flash forward to a year of living in Cincinnati and my salary dropped to $40K. Now I'm back in DC contracting for Feds again. Starting salary? $105K.
60K in a place like Cincinnati, not bad. 60K in DC, can't live on it. Be sure to take regional salaries into consideration.
Proficient in C,C+,C++
Goes for programming and infrastructure and all things IT -- you have to move around a lot. Employers in general have no interest in paying you more once you work there. If you want another $15k, you have to move elsewhere. Time at a company is spend padding resumes and earning certifications. Then you move. You might move back to the original company if they make a better offer. Employer logic is "We got the guy for $x, why should we pay him any more once we have him?" Doesn't matter if you complete a second degree while you're there, move from jr. developer to lead designer, take on more responsibilities, you'll get piddle-shit raises.
This kills me. I don't want to be job-hopping. I'd like to build some time with a place, earn some kudos and sweat equity. But those things don't exist. Been at a company a month or twenty years, you are equally expendable. Treat your employer the same way. And die a little inside. People want to think of the office as family because we're social creatures. Few people enjoy living life out as a lesson in Randian objectivism, looking for leverage in the battle of who's screwing whom. We aren't meant to live like that.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
Don't be a developer. They will work you 24/7. You will be cuffed to your desk most of the day. Your hair will turn gray and fall out around the edges so you'll have a friar cut. They'll water board you for overtime. They make you buy your own computer, desk, and chair. You aren't allowed outside except for one hour a day of supervised time in the yard. Coworkers will shank you with shivs made from sharpened USB drives. You'll have to gang up to get respect. First thing you'll have to do when you come to work is shank someone, to let them know you mean business! Wages are a lie. You'll be paid in honey buns and cans of tobacco so you can roll your own. If you work hard enough you can get a free day with your spouse, but this depends on company performance.
Overall being a developer is the most horrible job in the world. If I were young and choosing a career I would do something else. Like be a reality star or join the circus.
If you listen to people who don't do tech work talk about techies, you'll quickly realize that a lot of them do in fact put techies on roughly the same level as mechanics or bricklayers. You can think of yourself as a "knowledge worker" all you want, but the fact remains that you are going to be treated like a bricklayer. My most educated guess on why this is true is that techies produce useful products. In most businesses, the act of producing something (rather than selling something or organizing other people to produce something) severely limits your chances for advancement past the equivalent of senior foreman.
There are 3 ways to avoid this fate that I know of:
1. Do some serious and visible work for your company about issues that aren't tech-related. For instance, if you provide intelligent input about pricing, the salespeople will respect you a lot more.
2. Work at a company who's business is technology, which is still run by a techie. Make sure to leave once the suits take over.
3. Start your own company, and watch out that you don't completely become a suit.
I am officially gone from
I can believe 54,000 grand.
I cannot. 54 grand I just might.
Because they might show up your grammar and spelling skills?
I agree with that. I have worked with nondegree'ed devs who were fantastic... in fact ALL of them were fantastic.
Which explains why they were employed. In order to make it without a degree one has to be way above the rest. Mediocre developers without a degree soon find themselves either unemployed or in school.
Ironic.
I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
I know that is a lot of crap! I live in the uk and earn roughly £25K, prob about £35K? I've always thought that to really make money out of a programming career, you have to start you're own business, do it for yourself with an original idea. Otherwise you do seem to end up becoming another wheel in the cog. I might be wrong, but its just the way things seem to be to me.
Simply put, there's three factors that determine what you're going to make. Where you work physically (Palo Alto and Austin have significantly different pay rates for the same job), where you work financially (startups pay less than huge companies, state governments pay less than the feds, banks pay less than almost everyone ;^), and where you work professionally (it's unlikely that an C or Java programmer with 10 years experience will make as much as a CCIE w/ 10 years experience). A CS/BS is a ticket to ride, but you still gotta find your seat on the car and some have a better view than others :^).
"I don't think software should necessarily be free
I had a co-op student once, who obviously had no affinity for programming . . . or, more to the point, no affinity for computers in general. (This was back in the 80's, before PCs were as pervasive as now).
I really couldn't understand why he was torturing himself with a degree program, which he didn't like, so I asked him why he chose computer science. The answer:
"I heard that I will be able to make a lot of money in this field."
Money is not the reason to choose computer programming as a career.
Or any other career for that matter . . . do you want to have your tonsils removed by a surgeon, who is, "in it for the money . . . ?"
Schroedinger's Brexit: The UK is both in and out of the EU at the same time!
Never ever let anyone tell you what you can or should earn. Your salary is your choice. Do what you love, take control, and don't whine. This approach has worked well for me for the past 30 years. I've survived more than a few industry changes over that time.
The only thing worse than a statistic is an anecdote. The author has his personal experience- fine. But my personal experience directly contradicts his. And the only statistics on the subject (from NACE and BLS) give a fairly Normal distribution of salaries between 57,000 and 151,000 (http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos304.htm) Median annual wages of computer and information scientists were $97,970 in May 2008. The middle 50 percent earned between $75,340 and $124,370. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $57,480, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $151,250. Median annual wages of computer and information scientists employed in computer systems design and related services in May 2008 were $99,900.
Hello there! .NET Technologies as well as LAMP. My Key expertise is to develop Web Applications using:
Please refer to your opening on job posting site. I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.
I am working as a freelancer from Pune, India. I have over 7 years of experience in IT Industry with
exposure to
1. ASP.NET/C# with SQL Server 2005.
2. PHP/MY SQL.
I have experience working with distributed teams around the globe. I am self desciplined and self
motivated who always belives in quality. I have a very good infrastructure with latest Hardware,
Software, Telephone lines, and Broadband connection for communication.
My hourly rates are $ 9 USD. If you are looking for freelancers, please reply with a time to
discuss things over IM.
Thanks,
Rajesh
--
-actual reply to a craigslist posting in a major US city, looking for a software developer to work on site - received last week.
Just so you know, it's $9 an hour without even shopping around, and that's not a joke.
We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.
If I had a magic time machine and went back to 1999 the only thing I would be doing is selling short.
Knowledge = Power
P= W/t
t=Money
Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
I'm in software. I freely admit my spelling and grammar skills SUCK. :)
(re)Learning spelling would be a good idea. I'd hate to be the one to debug human resources code with a variable named /*Whether or not higher subject*/
bool higher=False;
which actually determined if someone was hired, but another coder thought it was a boolean for hierarchical levels, and was making it flip-flop between true/false.
Coders, as the future jacks of all trades, need to know a little of everything, and a lot of the fundamentals.
And then you guys raised taxes quite a bit to pay for reconstructing Eastern Germany - and haven't gotten around to lowering those taxes yet. Absorbing all of that is what killed your economy.
That's not to say it's bad you guys did it - it was good and necessary to do. I just mean to say that Germany is a special case.
Do you even know anything about perl? -- AC Replying to Tom Christiansen post.
After 15 years I can say to the younger generation coming in with 100% certainty - go independent.
What does this mean? Well obviously you need experience so getting a job to bootstrap yourself and pay your rent is first priority. But what you do on the side will impact your career greatly.
Things you can do in your spare time:
1. Work on an Open Source project and wrap it into a solution you can sell as a service
2. Create your own shrink-wrapped application and sell it
Either way you are partaking in the foundation of wealth - ownership. Only through ownership can you be truly "free" in the western world. Owners are first class citizens in any country. Everyone else is just a worker bee.
Just to convince you let me break down a little math for you. I currently bill our clients at around $190/hr for my programming services and I'm in an average "enterprise software" development position. But I only get a fraction of that - let's say around $50/hr for argument's sake. Some goes to infrastructure but the majority of that profit goes to the ownership. If you are the owner you get it all. Yes it's more work. But let me ask you this - would you put in 10-20 more hours per week to make 3-4 times as much? And that's just the tip of the iceberg. Some indy developers have really made a name for themselves and a fortune to boot.
And if it all fails, you still have that experience to learn from. Nothing ventured nothing gained.
Hello there!
Please refer to your opening on job posting site. I, Rajesh Sharma, would like to apply for the job.[...]My hourly rates are $ 9 USD.
We all like to pretend this isn't here and it isn't happening, but I would say conservatively half the job market has disappeared in 10 years due to this currency/standard of living imbalance.
There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects in India. I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:
Each and every project, I have had the above things. There are lots of ways around the above, but the main thing is that it's very hard.
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I wouldn't be surprised since USD9/hour is a fair bit in my country.
;)...
Analyst Programmer monthly salariesin Malaysia
According to Google: 1 Malaysian ringgit (RM) = 0.292184 U.S. dollars
So at the higher end, RM4500/month * 12 = USD15777 a year, or about USD7/hour. The low end is naturally even lower...
For some strange reason[1] a company I used to work for outsourced some work to India. When the Indian workers came over and we compared salaries, they were paid more than the average Malaysian programmer in our company, and while we weren't very good, most of the Indian team made us look good in comparison, one or two of them had some clue (they were paid quite a lot in comparison), but the rest were like the sort of programmers who would be responsible for the notorious Excel bug (where 77.1*850=100000).
FWIW, RM5-6 buys you a decent lunch, you can rent a room for about RM250-500/month and taxes at the RM4500/month level aren't that high.
A lot of people in "the West" are unaware of the huge differences in cost of living. Wages are really low elsewhere. So when you see people say "it must be child labour", it's often bullshit, or someone misinterpreting a picture/video ( just because a bunch of oriental/asian workers are petite doesn't mean they are children - my cousin is 40+, she lives in New York and she has to buy some of her clothes in the children's section).
[1] Apparently the company had money stuck in some country (not India), so they decided to use it by outsourcing work to a company that then outsources it to India... Can't remember how many layers there were. Something like that anyway. I was wise enough not to say in one of the first meetings - "why don't we just buy a whole load of merchandise, ship it to where you want the money to be and sell it, you'd lose less that way", go figure why
Stop hiring Rajesh FFS!
There's another reality: it's really, really hard to manage projects remotely. I have tried this for a number of projects, and have learned the following things:
Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on. These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt. I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.
God, schmod. I want my monkey man!
That's a critical point. It seems that economists (especially but hardly exclusively) have forgotten that without people, economy doesn't even have a reason to be. The entire point of an economy is to provide for it's participants. It's good or bad is to be measured exclusively in terms of how well it serves it's participants.
Given the supposed growth in the economy, it SHOULD be possible right now to support a family of 4 with a house and 2 cars on a single 20 hour a week income.
Unfortunately, as long as labor is treated as a market like any other, it is literally impossible for the masses to ever see the benefits of high technology. Ideally, machines work so we don't have to, but when labor is a market, machines work so we don't get jobs (or income) at all. The only way to make things equitable and progressive while even pretending to use market dynamics is to create an artificial labor shortage. Otherwise, all of the benefits of an expanding economy and improving technology will inevitably accrue only at the top.
Not that I disagree entirely that it may be more difficult to manage someone in India, and I've certainly heard horror stories, but come on. These could all be applied to just about any remote contractor who isn't worth their salt. I have worked with/currently work with plenty of Indians who really knew/know their stuff.
I gotta side with cerberuss on this one. Yes, c'mon all of those can be applied to any remote consultant that is not worth his salt. However, from my experience working with remote teams (India, Brazil, within the US), there is something specific about the consulting industry in India that can really bit you in the ass harder than in other cases.
Now, just like you, I've worked with plenty of Indians who really knew their stuff. In fact, most of the remote projects I've worked that involved teams in India have had a high success ratio. But the few that have failed have done so far more miserably and catastrophically than with other teams on other countries.
This has given me a glimpse to a darker side of Indian offshore consulting, which I've actually talked a lot with several of my Indian colleagues who also agree on this: you can end up with a consulting firm that sells the idea of development guided by a a top-notch architect, and you swallow the tripe. And then the top-notch architect designs a system which looks solid, then he moves to another project. Then the consulting firm gets a whole bunch of sophomore kids from college find ways to replicate GOTO statements in Java to do the implementation. My first encounter with such practices from such a consulting team was when I was working together with an Indian colleague of mine (a really good software developer) in trying to make sense out of the mess. When we looked at the code and the original design, all we could do was say "WTF?".
That's an experience I've had to repeat several times. It's a reality, and it has nothing to do with dissing people from X or Y country. It's an unfortunate reality that cannot be denied or politically correctly sugar coat it.