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Google Proposes DNS Extension

ElusiveJoe writes "Google, along with a group of DNS and content providers, hopes to alter the DNS protocol. Currently, a DNS request can be sent to a recursive DNS server, which would send out requests to other DNS servers from its own IP address, thus acting somewhat similar to a proxy server. The proposed modification would allow authoritative nameservers to expose your IP address (instead of an address of your ISP's DNS server, for example) in order to 'load balance traffic and send users to a nearby server.' Or it would allow any interested party to look at your DNS requests. Or it would send a user from Iran or Libya to a 'domain name doesn't exist' server."

271 comments

  1. Do no evil, eh? by Rossman · · Score: 1, Troll

    Yeah right.

    1. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Iphtashu+Fitz · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What's evil about this? All sorts of CDN systems could benefit from this. Hell, it could actually provide even the smallest web provider with a poor-man's version of expensive products like F5's global traffic manager.

    2. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Indeed, this could very well be abused as much as it could be useful.

    3. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Gabrill · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Mod parent up. There is no good reason for this other than to facilitate the monitoring of users.

      --
      Always going forward, 'cause we can't find reverse.
    4. Re:Do no evil, eh? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 2, Informative

      Not really. Load balancers provide features like constant service checks and "sticky" sessions that DNS isn't going to be able to provide (theoretically, service checks could be done, but it's going to be faster and more accurate to have the appliance on-site doing the checks). You don't want your load balancing flapping because some point between you and the DNS servers is suffering from congestion, negating your service checks to perform said load balancing.

    5. Re:Do no evil, eh? by suso · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      My thoughts exactly. Google already does anycast, so why exactly do they need this? Obviously to generate logs of what DNS queries are being made by exactly who.

    6. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, the summary lists two ways that this could be used for "evil":

      1) Or it would allow any interested party to look at your DNS requests.
      2) Or it would send a user from Iran or Libya to a "domain name doesn't exist" server.

      Violating privacy and enabling censorship have no place in the Western world.

    7. Re:Do no evil, eh? by nine-times · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Are you sure there's *no* good reason? I can understand saying that you think the downsides outweigh the benefits, but they claim that it would help them to "load balance traffic and send users to a nearby server," and it seems very possible that this functionality could be used that way. Yes, I'm sure you could accomplish this in other ways, too, but maybe Google feels like this will help them do it more efficiently. With all the traffic Google gets, efficiency is a big deal.

      Maybe there's another solution though? Like providing multiple DNS results for each query with enough information to let the client-side intelligently pick their own server out of the list?

      I don't know. I just know enough to know that DNS isn't so perfect as to be beyond improvement.

    8. Re:Do no evil, eh? by poetmatt · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I think the issue here is that for a marginal amount of good there's a whole lot of bad that can come out of this idea.

    9. Re:Do no evil, eh? by bickle · · Score: 1

      With all the traffic Google gets, efficiency is a big deal.

      But it's not such a big deal that it justifies allowing monitoring of traffic and possible censorship.

    10. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "There is no good reason for this other than to facilitate the monitoring of users."

      Did you miss this part:

      "DNS can be used to load balance traffic and send users to a nearby server."

      There is at least one good reason for this other than to facilitate the monitoring of users. Maybe it's insufficient, maybe it isn't, but ignoring it doesn't help your argument.

    11. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, the summary lists two ways that this could be used for "evil":

      1) Or it would allow any interested party to look at your DNS requests.
      2) Or it would send a user from Iran or Libya to a "domain name doesn't exist" server.

      Violating privacy and enabling censorship have no place in the Western world.

      You are assuming that the summary bears any relation to reality!

      The proposal is that your ISP's resolver will pass your approximate IP address when doing DNS a request on your behalf so that you can be sent to a close-by server for your actual TCP connection.

      What extra information does someone get here? How does this allow "any interested party to look at your DNS requests"?

      On the Iran point, if the website wants to block users from Iran, they can do that when you make the TCP connection - at that time they get your exact IP address and can apply any filtering policy they like.

    12. Re:Do no evil, eh? by megamerican · · Score: 1

      So basically what you are saying is, let's find any way this can be marginally useful and attribute it to the only reason why Google is doing this and disregard everything else, thus they are not evil.

      --
      If you have something that you dont want anyone to know, maybe you shouldnt be doing it in the first place -Eric Schmidt
    13. Re:Do no evil, eh? by donaggie03 · · Score: 2, Informative

      On your point about the Iran point...I think there is still the issue of intermediate servers sending "domain doesn't exist" messages to Libyan requests before the packet even reaches the intended destination.

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
    14. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 5, Informative

      On your point about the Iran point...I think there is still the issue of intermediate servers sending "domain doesn't exist" messages to Libyan requests before the packet even reaches the intended destination.

      What intermediate servers? The only parties involved here are you, the website and a 3rd-party resolver that you have chosen to use.

      If you don't trust your 3rd-party resolver then you're screwed with or without this extension because this resolver can see your full IP address and can lie to you about DNS (e.g. sending you to an ad site instead of saying "no such domain" or whatever).

      If you don't trust the website then why are you trying to connect to it? The website will get your full IP address as soon as you connect and can then do whatever it likes with that.

      Assuming you are actually planning on connecting to the website and not just doing DNS requests for the sake of it, nobody gets any information that they weren't going to get anyway and nobody has any opportunity to block you that they weren't going to have anyway.

    15. Re:Do no evil, eh? by extremescholar · · Score: 1

      One man's abuse is another man's useful.

      --
      Using the Freedom of Speech while I still have it.
    16. Re:Do no evil, eh? by badpazzword · · Score: 2, Informative

      From: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2010/01/google-wants-to-see-client-addresses-in-dns-queries.ars

      "Google does have a plan to avoid the most egregious privacy concerns. "Recursive Resolvers are strongly encouraged to conceal part of the IP address of the user by truncating IPv4 addresses to 24 bits." Coincidentally, 24 bits maps directly to the minimum address block that can be carried in the Internet's routing system. Carrying any more than that won't help solve the network distance problem using the routing tables. For IPv6, there is no corresponding number that everyone agrees to, but the authors of the draft suggest truncating IPv6 addresses as well. Of course, the owner of the authoritative DNS server still gets to see the client's full IP address when the HTTP request for the actual content is sent."

      --
      When ideas fail, words become very handy.
    17. Re:Do no evil, eh? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      And considering how much Google loooooooves datamining, is anyone actually surprised? They already have all your mail, your searches, your docs, etc if you use their services, why not your DNS as well? This is why I have been avoiding Google like the clap and only using Gmail as a spamdump. They just seem to want their fingers in waaaaay too many pies for me to trust that "do no evil" BS.

      NO company should be able to amass that much data on you, I don't care who they are or if they have a catchy slogan or not. Considering how easily this could be abused and used for censorship I think one would have to be nuts or a serious Google fanboi to want this. I wonder how much of this data they are already keeping if you use their DNS service?

      Everyone used to talk about how scary MSFT was with their "embrace, extend" bullshit, but frankly ever since Darth Gates left the company to the sweaty monkey they have flailed around like a drunken elephant from one idea to another. With the sheer amount of data Google is gathering on everybody I would say they are MUCH scarier now than MSFT ever was. At least you could avoid MSFT by going Linux or Apple. What happens if Google gets the ISPs to jump on board with this? Much scarier than the sweaty monkey IMHO.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    18. Re:Do no evil, eh? by ultranova · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Violating privacy and enabling censorship have no place in the Western world.

      Oh, how I wish that was true!

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    19. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Island+Admin · · Score: 1

      If users are worried about their DNS requests being logged .... as could be the case, they should use an OpenDNS server, or non local server. In the case with Iran, etc .. simply point, your DNS to something offshore.

      I agree with the point you are making, if a government wants to censor content, or violate your privacy they can intercept the TCP traffic. Leaving offshore VPNs as the only solution to those not wanting to be monitored.

    20. Re:Do no evil, eh? by ajs · · Score: 1

      What on Earth have you been smoking?!

      Google is proposing that DNS be improved for geolocating content. That's it.

      This is a good thing and would drastically improve the technology and remove arbitrary limitations that exist today. What's more you certainly have the option of running your own DNS server and anonymizing your requests if you want, but it's not like Google gets to see your requests anyway. The request will be sent to the DNS server responsible for the site you were actually asking about, so if you're looking up bombmakingparts.example.com, then only you, your immediate recursive DNS provider and example.com will be privy to the exchange of information where today, your recursive DNS provider is the only one who gets to know.... I don't really see how letting the site you're about to contact in on the communication helps or hurts the user except by imrpoving geolocation.

      PS: People have brought up the idea that nations that censor the internet will use this to improve censoring. This is wrong. They don't censor based on DNS, they filter traffic, providing man-in-the-middle proxies that you can't opt out of. This won't change their technology at all, and even if they used DNS for such purposes, this wouldn't change how they would do it (which would be to control what your ISP tells you in response to the initial request).

    21. Re:Do no evil, eh? by ardent99 · · Score: 1

      You are missing the whole point. By interested party, he means anyone who has the power to log activity at the domain server (e.g. someone in a controlling company or a government). The DNS is a bottleneck, and someone controlling any DNS server in the chain can easily track all the sites you visit if the requests have a personal identifier like an IP in them. On the Iran point, it is about a controlling entity blocking certain users from a random site that it doesn't control, not a user being blocked by the site itself. Another example of a big danger is a targeted pharming attack by a hacker (maybe this could be called spear pharming, similar to spear phishing?)

    22. Re:Do no evil, eh? by SuperQ · · Score: 1

      To do anycast DNS responses, you need to know the source of the request. Everyone using Google PublicDNS always gets the same response since it always looks like it's coming from 8.8.8.8. Sending the class C of the user asking for the query along with the request itself would allow anycast DNS responders to do a better job responding with the right "nearest" IP.

    23. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do no evil, eh?

      Their motto is, "Don't be evil", you stupid fuck.

      If you can't tell the difference between that and the words from the Hippocratic oath, cut off your goddamned hands so people won't know what a pompous dumbass you are.

    24. Re:Do no evil, eh? by badboy_tw2002 · · Score: 1

      So wait, you're resolving someone's DNS name and use the first three octets of their ip (the spec calls for hiding the 4th). But then what are you going to do with that? Are you going to use the IP address? If so, then you subject yourself to the same "monitoring" by _actually opening a connection_ to the third party that runs the evil greedy DNS server. If they're that evil, why are you connecting to them in the first place. And speaking of monitoring, your ISP probably has every single DNS request you've made tied to your IP which also is tagged to your name, SSN, credit card, etc. I think you've got a little more to worry about here than this...

    25. Re:Do no evil, eh? by insnprsn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Just because evil could be done with this does not mean evil will be done. People are entirely to paranoid

    26. Re:Do no evil, eh? by natehoy · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm confused at your assertion. Maybe I'm missing something in the article (as opposed to the summary, which is just making shit up to be scary).

      At the moment, I make a DNS request for a given domain. The DNS server sees if it has an entry cached and, if it does not, it asks an authoritative server for that domain what IP address should be used. Then it returns that IP address to me. That IP address is a fixed entity and could be located anywhere in the world. My initial connection to the domain, at least, is made using the server attached to that IP address. Then, if the data center wants to get clever, they can redirect me to a local data center by mangling the domain on all of their image loads, etc, to refer to a server closer to me. But it's clumsy, and I still have to talk to a distant server.

      Under Google's proposal, my DNS server would send the domain I'm interested in and my approximate location (first three octets of my four-octet IPv4 address). The authoritative DNS server can then make a decision whether to send me to a data center in my general area, or a data center located on the other side of the planet. The IP address I receive is determined accordingly, so I contact the local data center. The local server represents the actual domain as far as I'm concerned, so no mangling is necessary, and I never have to talk to a datacenter half a planet away. I get faster results, the domain giving me the results has a greatly simplified time doing so, and life is good.

      The only new information going to the authoritative DNS server is my approximate location. If I'm using Google's DNS servers, hell, they already have all four octets with the original DNS request. If I'm using someone another DNS server that supports this and I'm visiting Google, they'll give Google the first three octets. But, as soon as I have the IP address, I'm visiting the website itself and therefore the website has my full IP address. So it's not like I'm giving away any new information.

      About the only "evil" I could see is an authoritative DNS server looking at the first three octets and deciding to return a black holed address because they don't like that country. But that's already very possible without it. I do it all the time on my PHPNuke discussion boards - NukeSentinel allows me to enter large ranges of IP addresses to block, and anyone visiting from those ranges gets a very low-bandwidth "go away" message.

      I suppose my authoritative DNS server could gather more information about people looking up my domain, but then again they are my host provider, so if they want the data all they need to do is pull the IP connection logs and get the full IP.

      So I'm really struggling to figure out how this introduces any new risks of monitoring or censorship. The only entity that will receive this new data already gets far more data as soon as you visit the site. And censorship is far more easily done at the routing layer, not the DNS layer.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    27. Re:Do no evil, eh? by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure what you mean by the DNS server chain. If the dns resolver you're pointed to is doing a recursive lookup, then there is no chain per-se. A recursive resolver locates the NS for the address you want and then queries it on your behalf. A chain implies at least one of more servers acting as forwarders and not doing a recursive lookup. Or were you thinking of the chain of servers that get queried while the dns server is recursing to locate the authoritative server?

      This notion of passing the requestors IP along so you can 'customize' the dns reply is a bad idea. For it to work properly, you'd have to disable dns caching altogether which will significantly increase dns traffic. Also in many cases, when an intermediate dns server is in the loop, it's because the requestor is behind nat and their IP would be meaningless.

      The privacy issues are another valid concern. The ip you're looking up gets this info as soon as you connect anyway. A load balancer can theoretically redirect you to a physically closer node at that point. Your configured resolver sees everything anyway. It's just potentially a few other dns servers that get queried along the way that might also find out what ip originated the request.

      My guess is google wants to use it to better target ads. I can see the server goind "oh that ip address is on main street - lets show them the ad for the restaurant that's just down the street".

    28. Re:Do no evil, eh? by perlchild · · Score: 1

      And guess what, Google just publicised new domain resolvers...

      So... You mean that besides logging all your search requests... they'd like to be able to not just log the dns queries of people, but also know the ultimate requester?

      Hmm well that wouldn't be non-evil, but I would see them doing it, they just love having information.

      If anything, I think it's a sign that they discovered that between caches and resolvers, their google dns servers aren't serving up crunchy enough data...

    29. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you can't tell the difference between that and the words from the Hippocratic oath...

      The Hippocratic oath says "First, do no harm". "Do no evil" appears to be a common misquote of Google's motto, perhaps derived from the famous three monkeys.

      It's a bitch when you're trying to be pedantic in correcting another but fail miserably, eh? :)

    30. Re:Do no evil, eh? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      The only new information going to the authoritative DNS server is my approximate location... So it's not like I'm giving away any new information.

      I would also wonder how hard it would be to spoof the originating IP address for the purposes of the query. If it's done in a way that you're essentially volunteering your IP address and could claim a different IP at will, then the censorship of privacy concerns are at least diminished (though not erased completely).

    31. Re:Do no evil, eh? by physburn · · Score: 1
      The privacy problem does run deep, not only those the remote DNS server, will both the source and destination servers. The allow them to monitor every web page lookup you've every done.

      .

      The censorship problem also runs deep, into not just the remote website or a countries filewall that can block web addresses, its also any DNS server along the way.

      .

      The plus side for the proposal is the speed of the system, when your primary local DNS service doesn't have the right address, the next DNS server in the chain, can be choose to be nearer your computer. But this doesn't help very much in most cases.

      .

      Really this proposal is the oposite to where we should take DNS. DNS need more security more privacy, we need a protocol that obscures the source and destination to everydroppers, which find the right chain server, when the DNS server doesn't have the correct address, but can no nothing about source and destination at the same time. Its a tough order, and needs some very completed encryption technology.

      ---

      Internet Protocols Feed @ Feed Distiller

    32. Re:Do no evil, eh? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      So basically what you are saying is, let's find any way this can be marginally useful and attribute it to the only reason why Google is doing this and disregard everything else, thus they are not evil.

      So basically what you are saying is, let's just assume Google's aim here is to strengthen censorship in Iran.

      (Yes, I know what I'm saying is stupid. I'm making a stupid statement in response to a stupid statement to highlight just how stupid the statement I'm replying to was.)

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    33. Re:Do no evil, eh? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      -1 Too Much Tinfoil

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    34. Re:Do no evil, eh? by VGPowerlord · · Score: 1

      About the only "evil" I could see is an authoritative DNS server looking at the first three octets and deciding to return a black holed address because they don't like that country. But that's already very possible without it. I do it all the time on my PHPNuke discussion boards - NukeSentinel allows me to enter large ranges of IP addresses to block, and anyone visiting from those ranges gets a very low-bandwidth "go away" message.

      Whoa, who said it was an authoritative DNS server making that decision? Any upstream DNS provider could choose to do that, not just the authoritative DNS servers.

      Hell, the US Government could lock it at the A root if they so chose, and if you don't like it, well... tough.

      Also, what exactly does this do to DNS caching? Right now, if you ask for google.com, the DNS servers are going to cache the four addresses returned for it. However, storing geographic information along with that is going to mean a lot higher cache miss rates.

      --
      GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
    35. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 1

      There are at most 3 other parties involved: your ISP, your DNS resolver (if you don't manage that yourself) and the website (if the website does not run its own DNS service there is a one more party but it's probably the website's hosting provider which could sniff all of their traffic anyway).

      With or without this extension all 3 of these other parties have access to your IP address and can prevent you from accessing the site.

      If you think I'm still missing the point, please give an example where this extension enables some other interested party to snoop or block you.

    36. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Seems to me the although it is true that you are not giving more info than the web site itself has, you are creating an easier to access more central repository for that information, and it would be possible to replicate to "all" or specific other servers any time someone does an update or a zone transfer, this is not possible with site logs, but it would be easy if it is built into the DNS spec.

      There are many many many many more site's than DNS servers

    37. Re:Do no evil, eh? by natehoy · · Score: 3, Informative

      That would depend on the DNS server you chose to use. You might be able to set it to slightly randomize the first three octets to something still in your vicinity but not quite as close, or you might be able to ask your DNS server to spoof it entirely.

      But think about the flow of data as it stands today:

      1. You do a DNS lookup. Your DNS server has your full IP address.
      2. Your DNS server does an authoritative lookup (assuming it's not cached). The authoritative DNS server now has the first three octets of your DNS server.
      3. Authoritative DNS server returns poorly geolocated IP address to your DNS server.
      4. Your DNS server returns the IP address to you.
      5. You use that IP address to visit the web site. That web site now has your full IP address.

      Chances are, the authoritative DNS server is run by the same organization that runs the host you are accessing, or at least the last few routers leading to it.

      If the authoritative DNS server wants your IP address, they've already got it the instant you try to use the IP address they gave you as a result of the DNS lookup. Having the first three octets is now useless to them.

      From the censorship side, having you spoof those first three octets to get an IP address to reach them will do you no good because it's FAR more effective to block or redirect requests through their routers by your source IP address. In other words, they'd give you an accurate IP address but you wouldn't be able to use it.

      Yes, you could use TOR or a proxy, but then you'd already be proxying the DNS lookup anyway, so again there's nothing to gain by spoofing the first three octets in the DNS lookup.

      This scheme has no impact on privacy - the organization that runs the authoritative server gets FAR more information the instant you use the IP address they gave you.

      It also has little impact on censorship, because censorship via DNS is going to be highly ineffective. If I knew my country used DNS-based censorship, I'd just give out IP-address-based URLs that don't need to use a DNS lookup at all. Countries that do blocking will (and already do) use blocking at the HTTP or routing layer, not DNS.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    38. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The Hippocratic oath says "First, do no harm". "Do no evil" appears to be a common misquote of Google's motto, perhaps derived from the famous three monkeys.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocratic_Oath

      The phrase "first, do no harm" is often, incorrectly, attributed to the oath.

      It's a bitch when you're trying to be pedantic in correcting another but fail miserably, eh? :)

      Yes.

    39. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 1

      My guess is google wants to use it to better target ads. I can see the server goind "oh that ip address is on main street - lets show them the ad for the restaurant that's just down the street".

      But as you said above

      The ip you're looking up gets this info as soon as you connect anyway.

      So they can target the ad perfectly well already

      Where this benefits google and other websites is that people who use ultradns, opendns or just an ISP that has a small number of resolvers for a large geographic area will get correctly load balanced.

      Where this benefits ultradns, opendns and google public dns is that people will stop complaining that youtube gets slow when they use one of these public resolvers and so people will be happier to use them.

    40. Re:Do no evil, eh? by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Hell, the US Government could lock it at the A root if they so chose, and if you don't like it, well... tough.

      Yes, they could. But that's already possible, and this doesn't really add to the risk. If I choose to use a DNS server that does not do this optimization, the DNS server's first three octets are already sent. The only thing this change does is to locate me a little closer, and if I need a new source IP address to spoof I can always TOR or proxy my DNS lookups.

      But, in reality, if the government wanted to block, they'd start blocking routing, not DNS lookups. Otherwise, all I'd need is an IP address for where I want to go and they couldn't stop me. Not a terribly effective block...

      Also, what exactly does this do to DNS caching? Right now, if you ask for google.com, the DNS servers are going to cache the four addresses returned for it. However, storing geographic information along with that is going to mean a lot higher cache miss rates.

      Good point. Hmmmm...

      I hadn't though of that angle.

      I would think that the need to do additional DNS lookups would be more than offset by the geolocation data associated with them. After all, DNS sends very little data but once you have the IP address a lot of data can potentially be sent and received.

      So doing even a unique authoritative DNS lookup for each class C network for each domain would probably still result in a reduction of overall bandwidth from a given site (if you include their actual site AND their authoritative DNS lookup).

      The DNS server would take on a little more load, but your DNS server or any intermediates could also just choose not to participate and send their own three octets anyway, if the extra database space and/or bandwidth was that big a deal.

      Actually, I could also see a variant of this scheme where the authoritative DNS server could send back a three-octet set of its own, indicating what IP address range the result is valid for.

      So you ask from 4.4.4.4 what IP address www.yahoo.com is. Your DNS server asks Yahoo!'s authoritative, Yahoo! returns an IP and that it is valid for 4.0.0. Now anytime anyone asks about Yahoo! from any IP address starting in 4., your DNS server knows it doesn't need to look it up again.

      Someone like Google would obviously return pretty detailed octets, since they have tons of data centers. They might frequently go to the third octet.

      Someone somewhat smaller or with less colocation might use the first octet a good bit, the second occasionally, and very rarely the third.

      Someone like the sites I run (which are not colocated, just a single server) would return a single IP address valid for 0.0.0, meaning that will ALWAYS be the correct IP address no matter where you are coming from.

      That would mitigate the mass lookups, and ensure they are only used when they would actually be useful.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    41. Re:Do no evil, eh? by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      Where this benefits google and other websites is that people who use ultradns, opendns or just an ISP that has a small number of resolvers for a large geographic area will get correctly load balanced.

      Do you really believe that the reason Google wants information about a web surfer's location is so the "load can be better balanced"?

      Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but it sounds like this DNS "fix" will require that before I can read web sites I have to submit some information about my location.

      How different is that from having to provide a home address before being able to read a book?

      If this proposal does anything to make it harder to surf the web completely anonymously (and yes, having to provide my country of origin means I'm less anonymous) then I'm agin it.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    42. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Antiocheian · · Score: 1

      At least you could avoid MSFT by going Linux or Apple.

      You can also avoid gmail and use hushmail or simply run your own mailserver. But that address next to your name... it seems like gmail to me!?

    43. Re:Do no evil, eh? by psetzer · · Score: 1

      You can't anycast TCP, so this is a big boon for companies with lots of servers all over the world. The downsides involve bizarre cases with repressive governments that rule over their DNS servers with an iron fist but leave everything else alone because that would be wrong. China already blocks websites and monitors everyone in their country, so adding this really just offers them a less effective way to go about it. Companies wanting to use this to undermine their users' privacy can just look at the actual connections as well. Making sky-is-falling predictions about this just convinces people that these sorts of concerns are always misplaced when the truth of the matter is that this is innocuous even if there are other proposals out there that do have great potential for abuse.

      --
      "Anyone who attempts to generate random numbers by deterministic means is living in a state of sin." -- John von Neumann
    44. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 2, Informative

      Maybe I'm misunderstanding this, but it sounds like this DNS "fix" will require that before I can read web sites I have to submit some information about my location.

      You absolutely are misunderstanding it (or rather you are correctly understanding most of the posts here but they have little to do with the real proposal). You will not have to submit anything before doing anything. Nobody is getting any extra information here. If you think websites don't already know where you are, think again!

      In terms of telephone calls, DNS is the telephone directory service. You want to phone www.google.com, so you phone .com and ask them for the google.com number. Then you phone google.com and ask them for the www.google.com number. Because google has branches of www all over the country, they give you a number for www in your local area, so the call is cheaper and better line quality. They can do this because they can see your caller id so they know roughly where you live.

      Now lets say you don't like having to do so many steps all the time so you use a 3rd party service, let's call it ultraphone. You always ring the same number for ultraphone and they perform all the steps and give you back the final answer. The problem is that the google.com now sees ultraphone's caller id not yours so you get back a number that's in ultraphone's home-town not your home-town.

      This proposed extension just allows ultraphone to tell google "I'm calling on behalf of please give me the number you would give them".

      So you get a number that's local for you instead of one that's local for ultraphone.

      The problem that is being fixed here is that ultraphone saves you hassle while getting the phone number but it gets you a bad phone number (not a wrong one just not the best one for you). Right now you have to decide which you prefer, fast lookups with sub-optimal results or awkward lookups with optimal results.

      This extension lets you have fast lookups with optimal results.

      Assuming you were going to call www.google.com (and not just looking up their number for fun) then google was going to see your caller id anyway. This extension just changes when it sees it. Right now if you use a 3rd party DNS provider it gets your IP too late to do good load balancing and that hurts users and may consume extra bandwidth.

      Chances are that if you don't know about this stuff then you're using your ISP's DNS service and for some big ISPs that may mean a server hundreds of miles away, giving you sub-optimal answers.

    45. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Your comment doesn't address his CDN comment... and he's right, it could definitely help CDNs when trying to find the closest servers.

      Example: your video streaming client requests the IP of a CDN's HTTP server to stream from. For whatever reason your primary DNS is not geographically close to you. The CDN's DNS server ends up sending back the IP of the closest server to your not-very-close primary DNS, which defeats the purpose of geographically distributed CDN servers.

      Yes, the CDN could (and probably should) do things to prevent this, but not with a simple load balancer. It would need to do a geolocation check on your HTTP request, and redirect it to a closer server. But that whole process is of course less efficient than getting the right IP in the first place, and requires extra infrastructure, etc.

    46. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If you don't trust the website then why are you trying to connect to it?

      Who said that only web sites use DNS? There's a lot more internet out there than you see on the world wide web. Most of it uses DNS resolution.

    47. Re:Do no evil, eh? by hairyfeet · · Score: 1

      Did you miss the part where I said "avoid Google like the clap and only use Gmail for a spam dump"? Any public place you put your email address is gonna have a big old spam bullseye painted on it, so let Google enjoy those ads for Viagra and cialis. I figure the one or two posts a year I get from legit forum members (I use that email on all forums) will be well hidden by the endless "U n33d t3h V1a6ra!" ads.

      But I have three different Yahoo accounts as well as a real mail account with my ISP, so I don't trust any one company with all my data. Never was the "put all your eggs in one basket" type, and frankly the amount of data places like Google and Facebook have on some of my family members would bother the hell out of me.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
    48. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 1

      If you don't trust the website then why are you trying to connect to it?

      Who said that only web sites use DNS? There's a lot more internet out there than you see on the world wide web. Most of it uses DNS resolution.

      And is there any service where you do an address lookup and then toss the result without sending anything to the resulting IP address?

      Yes there's more than http but the same model applies to all services that use DNS for address lookup, you eventually send something to the address that you looked up and the server can then see your full IP address

      If you think I'm wrong, please give an example.

    49. Re:Do no evil, eh? by TooMuchToDo · · Score: 1

      This functionality belongs in the application, not shoehorned into DNS.

    50. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Evil = redirect based on country/geographical area. If that's going to be standard, any judge in some country can [for whatever reason you can come up with] decide that for instance TPB.org should not be allowed to be accessible for the citizens of that country, and point to this mechanism how to block it, or even order the registry to block it independent of what the domain holder wants.

    51. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Dahamma · · Score: 1

      Unfortunately, that is not how web browsers or nearly any other network applications work or will work any time soon.

      If I request http://image.randomcdn.com/bigassimage.jpg I'd prefer to:

      1) get it from the closest, best-peered server
      2) not have to go through multiple DNS lookups and/or HTTP redirects to do that, as it would defeat the purpose

      If a small, backwards compatible infrastructure change can provide significant aggregate performance improvements without requiring every TCP/IP application on the planet to be updated, I think it's at least worth considering.

    52. Re:Do no evil, eh? by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      The proposal is that your ISP's resolver will pass your approximate IP address when doing DNS a request on your behalf so that you can be sent to a close-by server for your actual TCP connection.

      Of course, since people tend to use DNS servers close to them, that is almost as good as the ip of the actual client.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    53. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

      There are at least two things about that: (1) Yes, somebody IS getting "extra information", because now the DNS does not generally know the IP ("caller id") of whoever is making the request. Instead, the most it would know would be the "ID" of your local switching station (ISP). As you pretty much say. (2) Presuming that your first connection -- usually your ISP -- is relatively local, knowing the location of your ISP is plenty good enough. A close server can be chosen based on that. There is no need for Google or anyone else to know the final destination.

    54. Re:Do no evil, eh? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      DNS-based backlists. You look up the address or hostname of the sender in a different domain, and the "address" in the response indicates if the thing you're looking up is listed (and potentially, why it's listed). But it's not a real address and you never connect to it.

      SPF and anything else implemented in a TXT record can be used in similar ways. I think DNS signing attaches the keys to DNS records, as well.

      Not really sure if having the true client IP address exposed matters in either case, but there are applications for DNS that don't result in the client connecting to the resolved address.

      From a technical point of view, I dislike anything that implicitly disallows caching of responses. The only way having the client IP forwarded in the recursive lookup makes sense is if you assume that every single lookup will make its way to the origin servers (i.e. ridiculously low TTLs). A lot of things we seem to be doing these days (dynamic sites with different content based on your IP address etc.) seems to be working towards making it much harder to build resilient and performant sites.

    55. Re:Do no evil, eh? by totally+bogus+dude · · Score: 1

      I don't see how this would make it any easier for that. If you're doing the lookup using a DNS resolver that's under the jurisdiction of the government that wants the site blocked, then all they have to do is order whoever runs that DNS resolver (typically this would be "every ISP in the country") to block the domain at the DNS level. The ISPs can fight it out in court or whatever, but if the ruling is upheld either they block it as instructed, or go to jail. You don't need to be forwarding the client's IP address for this to work.

      If the client is using a DNS resolver out of the jurisdiction of the country, then you're back to standard network filtering practices. Either you order the ISPs/carriers to prevent users within the country from using DNS servers outside of it, or you have them transparently intercept and modify certain responses. But again, the presence or absence of the client's IP address in the forwarded request doesn't matter.

      The only one who would potentially receive extra information with this proposal is whoever operates the origin DNS servers. And if they're under the jurisdiction of the country that wants their site banned, well; just go in there and seize the equipment used to run the site and arrest the people responsible for it.

    56. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are uses of DNS where a TCP connection does not follow the lookup. Making the lookup depend on the client IP address disables caching.

    57. Re:Do no evil, eh? by Warbothong · · Score: 1

      What intermediate servers? The only parties involved here are you, the website and a 3rd-party resolver that you have chosen to use.

      If you don't trust your 3rd-party resolver then you're screwed with or without this extension because this resolver can see your full IP address and can lie to you about DNS (e.g. sending you to an ad site instead of saying "no such domain" or whatever).

      Forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding of DNS is that it works as follows:

      1) Connect to a DNS and ask for the IP address corresponding to a domain name
      2) The DNS checks its list for this domain
      3) If the domain is found, the IP is sent back to you, job done
      4) If the domain isn't found then it contacts other known DNSs to see if they know
      5) This happens recursively until it's found (and all of the lists on the way get updated) or it all times out

      Now, the "3rd party resolver" here would be that initial DNS which, of course, you would have to trust. However, if it doesn't know the IP for a domain then it sends out requests to other DNSs, which you have no way of knowing unless you're the admin for every DNS in the network (since it's recursive), _to update its own lists_ in order to better serve the users who are connecting to it. If a bogus "not found" request is sent in this current setup, each DNS on the trail from the first one to the malicious one will have its lists updated with the bogus information, which impacts everyone, should be obvious to any admin, etc.

      Now, the danger with the proposed DNS change is that requests would be made _on the users' behalf_, rather than to keep the DNS's lists relevant. Attaching the user's IP to each request filtering through the network would allow bogus replies to target specific users (ie. Iranians, Libyans, etc.) whilst serving everyone else normally, which would make it very hard to detect that any bogus data is going through at all, since every dubious domain would have to tested with every relevant IP address, and there's still no guarantee of finding it then, since the malicious DNS might only be sending bogus data to a limited proportion of its requests from certain IP blocks, or could be doing it within certain time windows, etc.

      This would allow, say, the Iranian government to poison the DNS network to achieve goals relevent to them (ie. denying access to certain domains to certain blocks of IPs) in a way that is very difficult to detect for those not affected by it.

    58. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 1

      DNS blacklists are very very far away from the nonsensical privacy concerns all over this thread. You are correct, if you do your blacklist lookups through a 3rd party resolver which implements this optional extension then the blacklist provider may find out your /24 for any lookups you do that aren't in the resolver's cache already. If that bothers you, use a different resolver or use the opt-out mechanism which signals to the resolver not to pass any information but it seems odd to me that someone trusts their 3rd-party DNS resolver (who gets to see all your queries) more than they trust the blacklist provider (who might get to see some obfuscated queries).

      The other examples do no involve addresses and even for the blacklist example you put "address" in quotes, so I think you agree that there are no "OMG Google wants to know where I am and force me into an arranged marriage" issues here.

      As for caching, read the RFC, it covers it. Caching is not thrown out. It does become harder for any resolver that implements the this optional extension, the cache key becomes (query, address_prefix) so you need a bigger cache, however the resolver is in control of how big or small an address_prefix it sends. That's the trade off for giving better answers to your users.

      The whole thing is a non-event if you run a resolver at home or in a small office. As long as the resolver is networkologically close to its users there is no need to bother with this extension. Even if you run a massive world-spanning resolver, you can ignore this extension if you like and continue to give your users crappy results.

      The only people who will implement this are geographically diverse DNS providers and geographically diverse content providers - it just helps them play well together.

    59. Re:Do no evil, eh? by dito · · Score: 1

      Yes, somebody IS getting "extra information", because now the DNS does not generally know the IP ("caller id") of whoever is making the request.

      As I said,

      Assuming you were going to call www.google.com (and not just looking up their number for fun) then google was going to see your caller id anyway.

      Who runs Google's DNS servers? Google. Who runs Yahoo's DNS servers? Yahoo. If you're going to connect to Google, their web server is going to see your full IP address. Why does it matter if their DNS server might also see part of it a few milliseconds beforehand?

      Google's DNS server isn't going to see your Yahoo traffic or your joeblogs.com traffic, it's only going to see your Google traffic in which case Google was going to see your IP address anyway. Making the distinction between Google's DNS server and Google's webserver seeing your IP address makes no sense here. The info obtained by the DNS server is a subset of the info obtained by the web server.

      The relevant party here is Google or Yahoo a whole. Are you trying to say that Yahoo's yahoo.com authoritative DNS servers and Yahoo's web servers count as separate parties for privacy purposes?

      For smaller websites this can actually be true as they may not manage their own DNS and so there is another party here (probably their hosting provider who can sniff all their traffic anyway). But nobody here is accusing smaller websites and their DNS providers of trying to enslave the world with a DNS RFC.

    60. Re:Do no evil, eh? by SuperQ · · Score: 1

      No, you can still provide caching on the users' behalf. This is what TTL is for. This wouldn't turn DNS resolvers into non-caching proxies. Sure, sometimes the geo map of the CDN changes, but it wouldn't be smart to do that for every request. Again, TTL can be used to tailor the cache refresh rate which will affect the number of updates a CDN can do to the geo-coded responses.

  2. The Extinction of DNS? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Whacome? Goodgle, Whacome?

  3. Do no evil, my ass. by mosel-saar-ruwer · · Score: 1, Troll

    Google just can't seem to go Big Brother soon enough.

    1. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by jwinster · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason for Google to want this pushed through, other than to track their users. I can understand an IP wanting to use the "load balancing" reasoning, but tracking user activity is the ONLY thing Google stands to gain.

      --
      Q.E.D.
    2. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 4, Insightful

      IF governments couldn't get Big Brother information from Corporations, then I wouldn't have a problem with data mining. What is scary about Big Brother is a government using the information to use the force of the state to put people in jail. A corporation uses that information to provide products that consumers want. The government uses that information to control the population through force.

      If Google could be trusted to never hand that information over to the government, then I would have no problem with them data mining as much as they want.

      Those were really big IF's since we all know the government can easily get the information from Google, therefore we don't want them to have it.

      There are lots of value add services that can be done because of data mining that consumers and the population want, they just ignore the consequences of the government also having access to the same data.

    3. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Dude I was about to write a post with exactly the same title. Google is turning evil.

    4. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Are you being deliberately obtuse? Region-based load balancing also helps content providers reduce latency and get better bandwidth by reducing the number of network hops between you and the web server. This could be very beneficial to sites like Youtube and other high-bandwidth sites.

      And the privacy issues strike me as semi-bullshit. You are looking up the DNS for a website YOU WERE PLANNING TO VISIT ANYWAY. When you visit the web site, they have your full IP address anyway. Sure, there are potential man-in-the-middle issues, and maybe some worries in cases where the web server operator (which presumably you want to give your IP address to) and the DNS server operator are different people. But seriously, web browsing is not IP address anonymous in any way, so I see no reason why DNS has to be either. If you want that level of privacy, you should be using Tor.

      Anyway, the privacy/efficiency debate is worth having, but you have to first acknowledge that Google's legitimate reason for this extension might actually be the reason they stated.

    5. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by 2obvious4u · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Are you being deliberately obtuse?

      No, I was being acute.

    6. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by mother_reincarnated · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Oh because they're not going to get all four octets a fraction of a second later when you CONNECT TO THEIR SERVER?

      Critical thinking people... This would actually let people not use their ISP provided LDNS' without getting asstastic performance from every big site out there!

    7. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So you dont think it would be possible for the government to just get that info from the DNS resolvers?

      It strikes me that you could create a slashdot article stating that google had a plan to make it possible for websites to log who visit... and everyone would start bashing google, nevermind the fact that thats already the reality.

    8. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Are you being deliberately obtuse?

      Region-based load balancing can already be accomplished with a multiple-A entry point and a little redirection logic.

      In fact, it's necessary to do it that way, because the servers can't necessarily trace back to the client, and it's more efficient for the client to perform the latency measurements anyway.

    9. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And the privacy issues strike me as semi-bullshit. You are looking up the DNS for a website YOU WERE PLANNING TO VISIT ANYWAY.

      Bad argument. Impractical to gain useful user information by requisitioning site logs unless you know ahead of time which sites. The better comparison is to ISP logs. Still, being able to get at this information at the DNS level expands the scope of systems and organizations that can provide insight into web user behavior.

    10. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Google stands to gain a LOT from this, and they do not stand to gain any benefits from additional tracking of any users. In fact, everyone on the Internet could easily benefit from this, and it's a relatively trivial change.

      But the summary is deeply flawed. The sky is not falling, we just had a Chicken Little post a summary that bears almost no resemblance to the original source article or what is proposed there.

      This is the important bit from the article, though there's a lot of background explanation before this paragraph you might want to read.

      Currently, to determine your location, authoritative nameservers look at the source IP address of the incoming request, which is the IP address of your DNS resolver, rather than your IP address. This DNS resolver is often managed by your ISP or alternately is a third-party resolver like Google Public DNS. In most cases the resolver is close to its users, in which case the authoritative nameservers will be able to find the nearest server. However, some DNS resolvers serve many users over a wider area. In these cases, your lookup for www.google.com may return the IP address of a server several countries away from you. If the authoritative nameserver could detect where you were, a closer server might have been available.

      Google stands to save that holy grail of holy grails... bandwidth charges. If this is implemented, all of my requests to Google would go to a Google server in the United States, rather than one in Germany or the Netherlands. All of my requests to Yahoo!, or whomever, would benefit from the same location awareness. And since I'm requesting less data over precious overseas deep sea cable, it costs less to get the information to me as well.

      And to a large extent, this is already in place. My ISP already uses a DNS server that approximates my location when asking authoritative server what IP address I should use. The only real change here is that I can choose to use any DNS server I want and still get the same benefit of location awareness, and my current DNS server can be even more accurate in providing my location to the authoritative server. After all, my ISP (Comcast) gives me a DNS server that is located four states away from me at the moment. If Amazon.com had a datacenter in my state and one near where my DNS server is located, I'd currently end up using the one near the DNS server. Under the new scheme, I'd use the one located closer to me. Amazon saves bandwidth charges, I get a faster page load time, fewer tubes have gunk going through them to get the pages to me, everyone happy.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    11. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      Oh because they're not going to get all four octets a fraction of a second later when you CONNECT TO THEIR SERVER?

      Critical thinking people... This would actually let people not use their ISP provided LDNS' without getting asstastic performance from every big site out there!

      Not if you're using a proxy server.

    12. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Privacy is only gained in a very few number of cases so I don't think the privacy thing is as big a deal as the summary makes out...

    13. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason for Google to want this pushed through, other than to track their users. I can understand an IP wanting to use the "load balancing" reasoning, but tracking user activity is the ONLY thing Google stands to gain.

      I can think of another reason they might want to do this, although it's still not legit - Who says there has to be a real originating request behind a caching server's request? Being able to claim you're performing a query from any place in the world you want sounds like a great way to probe out the geo-mapping done by some of the big CDNs. I think Google might have their eye on some tasty commercially-sensitive data from Akamai et. al.

    14. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by discogravy · · Score: 1

      The internet is not the web; DNS has uses other than HTTP requests. Ping, traceroute, SMTP, FTP, to name a few. Please think back to the myriad things that broke when verisign started doing wildcard redirection. This is still a good idea, but to pretend that there aren't privacy/security concerns because "they were going to know anyway" is false.

    15. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by ajs · · Score: 1

      I'm trying to think of a legitimate reason for Google to want this pushed through, other than to track their users. I can understand an IP wanting to use the "load balancing" reasoning, but tracking user activity is the ONLY thing Google stands to gain.

      Anyone who has worked with DNS infrastructure over the last 20 years knows that this is the largest and most glaring need in the standard and Google is most certainly not the only one who wants it. Anyone who deals with large-scale distributed infrastructure for content delivery is practically begging for it and has been for 10 years at least.

      There's is absolutely zero value here in terms of "tracking users" since anyone who goes to your DNS server to ask for you IP address is then going to contact your service port (e.g. HTTP) and you get far more useful tracking information at that time.

    16. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This semi-bullshit nevertheless will provide for more detailed intercept at top of hierarchy.
      Remember, it's precisely the irregular and singular queries that are of interest.

    17. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by bhassel · · Score: 1

      What's your point? If you are using a proxy server, then you would presumably get an address closer to the proxy server rather than close to yourself. Since all your traffic will be going through the proxy server anyway, that's still an improvement.

    18. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      If you're that afraid of your government, you should probably work on fixing it more than hiding from it. That IS your responsibility as a citizen and a human being.

      I'm so sick of 'the government is evil so I'm going to go hide from it instead of do something about it!'

      Grow some balls, pussy.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    19. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Alternatively they could introduce a different extension that gave the client an option of determine which IP to connect to based on location.

      The information can flow both ways if we're going to change the protocol. Instead of giving information to Google, Google could give the information to you (or your upstream server).

      Probably less efficient, but theres no real specific reason it has to go either particular reason.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
    20. Re:Do no evil, my ass. by russotto · · Score: 1

      If you're that afraid of your government, you should probably work on fixing it more than hiding from it. That IS your responsibility as a citizen and a human being.

      Fixing the government is not a task an individual can realistically hope to accomplish. Hiding from it is somewhat more practical. It's no more being a "pussy" to prefer hiding from the government than it is to prefer avoiding a tornado than standing up to it.

  4. Their motto might be 'do no evil' by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 1

    but the consequences could be..

  5. True face of google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

    This is horrible. This is so GOOG can monitor ALL of your web activity, all the time.

    If you ever use Google, or see adwords anywhere, they already have your ip--all 4 octets.

    With this DNS extension, they can see what sites buckets of people are visiting when they're NOT on google sites or where goog ads are being served. It's not resolved down to the user, but it's bucketed, and over time, they can guess what's happening.

    This proposal is absolutely about google getting more data about your internet habits, and more data about the market spaces they don't (yet) control.

    1. Re:True face of google by tyrione · · Score: 1

      This is horrible. This is so GOOG can monitor ALL of your web activity, all the time.

      If you ever use Google, or see adwords anywhere, they already have your ip--all 4 octets.

      With this DNS extension, they can see what sites buckets of people are visiting when they're NOT on google sites or where goog ads are being served. It's not resolved down to the user, but it's bucketed, and over time, they can guess what's happening.

      This proposal is absolutely about google getting more data about your internet habits, and more data about the market spaces they don't (yet) control.

      This approach they are taking reminds me of grocery stores ala Albertsons, Safeway and much more which give you "discounts" for your personal shopping habits. Then you start getting targeted for specific deals. The only reason anyone signs up for those cards is the fact they want the discount that no longer exists since these stores and brands yanked Coupons from the market.

  6. Not as evil as suggested by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 5, Informative

    If you read the entire post by google, you'll notice they are suggesting only the first 3 octects of the IP address are transmitted. Now while this could theoretically be used to censor regions of users, it could not be used to expose you (since it isn't the complete IP address)

    1. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Doesn't that theoretically nail you down to somewhere within 252 ish machines? (Assuming IPv4).

      The first 3 octets seem like they could be enough to personally identify you based on your DNS Search records.

    2. Re:Not as evil as suggested by gstoddart · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you read the entire post by google, you'll notice they are suggesting only the first 3 octects of the IP address are transmitted. Now while this could theoretically be used to censor regions of users, it could not be used to expose you (since it isn't the complete IP address)

      No, but given that only an additional 255 (or is it 254?) users besides you can be coming from that range, it's not like over time someone can't correlate this to you.

      I'm not convinced this doesn't have privacy implications, or that we're not better off with our requesting DNS being the one who is shown. I don't necessarily want web sites to know where I'm coming from.

      Cheers

      --
      Lost at C:>. Found at C.
    3. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 1

      only the first 3 octects of the IP address are transmitted...could not be used to expose you

      Combining this with the information from the already quite pervasive tracking google does, I can't imagine that identifying your one-of-256-addresses is anything other than trivial.

      --
      My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
    4. Re:Not as evil as suggested by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The first three octets limit you to a maximum of 256 machines. In practice, most addresses are assigned in /24s, so you end up with two of these used for the router and broadcast addresses. Most broadband ISPs don't recycle addresses often, so you end up with the same IP for weeks, if not months, at a time. Of the other 200 people on your /24, how many are online at the same time as you? Maybe 10-20? Of these, how many have sufficiently similar surfing patterns that, when you combine the DNS results with tracking data from all sites that use Google analytics, they can't be distinguished from you?

      If Google can't track your Internet usage from the first three octets of your IP address and DNS results then they haven't got nearly as much expertise in data mining as you'd need to operate a successful search engine.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    5. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that were true, it should be the CIDR netmask, not some fixed number of bits. But still, it is just an attempt to subvert local control. If an organization is running DNS caching, it is specifically because they do not want their local hosts filling the WAN link with redundant queries, but want to CACHE and REUSE the same binding for all of the local hosts. Such an organization is not interested in redirecting their clients to make individual queries that bypass the caching proxy, or they would not have deployed such a cache in the first place.

      This will only lead to more use of transparent DNS proxies, which are a substantial headache for all involved.

    6. Re:Not as evil as suggested by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      even the first 2 octets can be enough to reliably identify with some digging. what do you think 3 is gonna do?

    7. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Talisein · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Web sites already know where you're coming from. They have your IP address. Every single one of them, unless you're using a proxy. The problem is they can't easily redirect you to the server closest to you once you've already resolved their address. The only in the whole system who do not know your IP when you're browsing the web is potentially the authoritative DNS server; the usual case is the same people who run the authoritative DNS server also run the web server, so while they don't get your IP when you do the DNS lookup they will when you eventually land on the site.

      --
      "The right to do something does not mean doing it is right." William Safire
    8. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm not worried about the "evil" aspect of it. This just doesn't sound like what DNS should be used for.

    9. Re:Not as evil as suggested by madddddddddd · · Score: 1

      DING DING DING DING DING DING

      right on the head.

      anonymous genius.

    10. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Doesn't that theoretically nail you down to somewhere within 252 ish machines? (Assuming IPv4).

      The first 3 octets seem like they could be enough to personally identify you based on your DNS Search records.

      That's a good point. And if the first three octets aren't enough then the next DNS request, coming from your own IP address, should do the trick.

    11. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Talisein · · Score: 1

      Let's assume that you're not using Google's recursive DNS server (because you're obviously and rightfully afraid of them). Instead, say, you're using OpenDNS.

      You want to go to www.google.com, but you need to resolve the domain name. You're request goes to OpenDNS. They get to see your IP. They always have. Then OpenDNS goes to google' authoritative DNS server to figure out the IP for their webserver. Under the proposal, the authoritative server would get to see some of your IP address, so okay, Google knows where you are, omg. But then you get the DNS query back and your web browser shows the Google homepage. OMG, their webserver just got your IP address again! So Google would know your full IP address anyways.

      On the other hand you may want to go to www.cnn.com. Again OpenDNS gets your query and your IP. Under the proposal, the cnn.com nameserver would get to see some of your IP address when answering OpenDNS's query. But then again, cnn.com would get your full IP address later when you actually go to the site. ****And Google Would Know Nothing Of Your Visit To CNN, Even Under This Proposal**** baring CNN using Google analytics on their webpage, which they very well might, but this proposal has nothing to do with that.

      --
      "The right to do something does not mean doing it is right." William Safire
    12. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Saishuuheiki · · Score: 2, Informative

      Isn't it a moot discussion anyways? Generally speaking they're going to get your IP address anyways when you connect to their server; so why is it important if they get your IP earlier when you're looking up their server?

      I guess there could be some way to track what sites you're looking up from different tiers of DNS servers. If you were using google DNS, they'd have your entire DNS anyways, and if you were using another, then they'd only get your IP if you're connecting to google.com

    13. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Don't ever switch to IPv6 then.... (says the Anonymous Coward)

    14. Re:Not as evil as suggested by gparent · · Score: 1

      No, but given that only an additional 255 (or is it 254?) users besides you can be coming from that range, it's not like over time someone can't correlate this to you.

      Could be 256.

    15. Re:Not as evil as suggested by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Its 254, assuming that its not being natted in any way. And the IP addresses change randomly for most users, at random intervals.

      Somehow all these people are super concerned with THIS idea, but have no qualms about everything they do online being logged in weblogs. But then, its google (or microsoft, or apple), so we have to bash them; theyre too successful to be allowed to have good, non-evil ideas!

    16. Re:Not as evil as suggested by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      How are they going to correlate a random DNS entry with you, without access to a cookie, or session data?

    17. Re:Not as evil as suggested by D+Ninja · · Score: 1

      Thank you! Came in here to say this. Did the submitter even read the article?

      And for those interested:

      Our proposed DNS protocol extension lets recursive DNS resolvers include part of your IP address in the request sent to authoritative nameservers. Only the first three octets, or top 24 bits, are sent providing enough information to the authoritative nameserver to determine your network location, without affecting your privacy.

    18. Re:Not as evil as suggested by peragrin · · Score: 1

      Well if your like my house it is closer to 1 in 765. NATs are wonderful for that. As they can determine IP but not one of the four users across 9 computers with Internet access.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    19. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I'll never get modded up far enough being an AC, but i want to point out that it is not just 254.

      Any netmask greater than 255.255.255.0 will allow some .0s and some .255s. (Thus the GP is correct it could be a max of 256)

      Example my ISP uses 255.255.252.0 (/22s) for their networks. Plenty of .0 and .255s that will be in use (and are).

    20. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      The problem is they can't easily redirect you to the server closest to you once you've already resolved their address.

      What's wrong with an http redirect? They seem to work just dandy for akamai.

      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    21. Re:Not as evil as suggested by natehoy · · Score: 1

      Of course, since this is only to give them enough information so you can access a Google server nearby as opposed to one somewhere else, they'll have your FULL IP ADDRESS about 1/100 of a second later.

      Google doesn't need this to track you. In fact, this information is less useful than what they already have. This is about Google (and anyone else who has distributed datacenters) being able to make better decisions about which datacenter to send you to. This saves them bandwidth charges, which adds up to BIG money. That alone is plenty of reason why Google wants this, and everyone who manages multiple distributed datacenters should too.

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    22. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Imagix · · Score: 1

      And that defeats the purpose. The internet got away from classes of IPs and went to classless delegation for a reason. Now they want to bring it back. And if the concern was really for geolocation purposes, then the ISP can simply put a recursive nameserver close to the clients (say only 1 hop up from the client). Since all of the client's traffic must pass by that hop anyway, that DNS will be close enough to determine where the client is.

    23. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Akamai doesn't use redirects. They work through DNS.

    24. Re:Not as evil as suggested by ajs · · Score: 1

      Web sites already know where you're coming from. They have your IP address. Every single one of them, unless you're using a proxy.

      And interestingly enough it's far easier to rely on a DNS proxy than a Web or mail proxy, as the information is relatively stateless, so yes, there's nothing about this proposal that affects users in any way other than potentially yielding better geolocation results.

    25. Re:Not as evil as suggested by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      Yes. This would be using DNS to give you the best IP address to connect to if you want to browse a particular site. DNS shouldn't be used to associate a name with an IP address unless it's done randomly... /sarcasm

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    26. Re:Not as evil as suggested by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      yeah, you're right. It is a bit moot. However, why make it even easier to be tracked in any instance? In no situation is such an idea a good thing.

    27. Re:Not as evil as suggested by x102output · · Score: 1

      I thought Google (and many many other domains) were already doing this?



      When I DNS for www.google.com, I assumed (excluding caching):

      I first requested the DNS address of the COM. authoritative server, then that gave me the IP address of google's dns servers.

      Then Google's DNS servers read my IP address, and based on where I was located, send me a localized IP for the www sub-domain. If you are running a domain, don't you get to hand out IP addresses direct to those who are requesting?

      what am I missing here?

    28. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's not the point. The power bestowed by this technology *will* be used to identify you... eventually. It's 3 octets now. How about 5 years from now after Patriot Act II is passed?

    29. Re:Not as evil as suggested by inKubus · · Score: 1

      Yes, but GOOGLE doesn't know what sites you visit if you don't use their search or their toolbar or visit a site with their ads on it. But they want to know everything. So in the name of "better internet", not unlike the things people do in the name of Jesus, a little egg with evil inside is laid.

      By the way, if you haven't seen panopticlick you should check it out. If you add the first three octets of ip address there would be more than enough info to identify your computer. What's scary is that Google (and msft and others [feds?]) have been doing this for years to track browser and no one has heard about it publically. Eric Schmidt says "if you're doing something online you don't want anyone knowing about, maybe you shouldn't be doing it in the first place." And that's all good in a utopian balanced world where there is no evil that might one day become stronger than you and you'll need to hide from it to battle it effectively. As such, and as such as the founders of this country sought never to happen AGAIN in this world, I think it would be best to leave the frickin broken ass, slow, decentralized DNS system alone and anonymous. Of course, the root servers know all ;) Thanks Verisign (who also is the root of most SSL certs and decides whether or not to vouch for them). It's amazing but when you really look at it, there's really only 5-10 companies that control the bulk of the internet.

      --
      Cool! Amazing Toys.
    30. Re:Not as evil as suggested by adolf · · Score: 1

      An obvious and knee-jerk question, that I've not actually putting any thought into it at all:

      If Akamai can do their tricks with the existing DNS structure, then why can't everyone else?

    31. Re:Not as evil as suggested by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If Akamai can do their tricks with the existing DNS structure, why are they listed in the Acknowledgements section of the draft?

  7. Bad summary by Talisein · · Score: 3, Informative

    The proposal says they would only use the first three octets. And users could just use a different DNS server if they had a restrictive servers that blacklisted Iran or whatever.

    --
    "The right to do something does not mean doing it is right." William Safire
    1. Re:Bad summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      No, they could not use a different server. That's the whole point. The resolving server, i.e. the one the users "use", currently does not reveal any information about the IP address of the requesting computer. With Google's extension, it is supposed to say to the authoritative server: Here's someone from a.b.c.x and he wants to know what the IP address of www.google.com is. Then the authoritative server for google.com can answer one thing if a.b.c.x is in Libya and another thing if a.b.c.x is in Canada.

      The justification for this extension is load balancing: Instead of randomly assigning users to different servers with "round-robin DNS", Google wants to send users to geographically closer servers, and they want to do it via DNS. This is stupid. Aside from all the surveillance and manipulation opportunities it creates, it makes caching near impossible. If the result depends on the IP address of the requesting computer, then the resolver can not return a cached result which was stored when another user requested the "same" information. It is similar to the content negotiation feature of HTTP (where the client can for example send the preferred language with the request, meaning that the result does not depend on the URL alone), with one significant difference: there is no "vary client-IP/24" option in HTTP, because that would obviously make caching impossible.

      DNS is a distributed database, not a relay system for point-to-point communication.

    2. Re:Bad summary by natehoy · · Score: 1

      How is this stupid? The DNS system already does this load balancing.

      The DNS server you use today already sends ITS first three octets to the authoritative DNS server so the authoritative DNS server can make these load balancing decisions. In my case, with Comcast, this is less than optimal because my DNS server is located several states from me.

      The only change Google is proposing is to make that location awareness a little more accurate by sending YOUR first three octets, so the authoritative server can then make a more informed decision about what data center to send you to.

      And yes, I can see a government's authoritative DNS server "being evil", but you can always use a DNS server that does not use this function, and in fact probably a lot of public-use DNS servers will make this an option if you want to visit web sites and want to pretend to be from a country you are not (at which point the government will simply block your IP address range in their routers anyway so the DNS question is moot).

      --
      "This post contains words, known to the State of California to cause thought. Wash brain thoroughly after reading."
    3. Re:Bad summary by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      DNS is a distributed caching database. The recursive DNS server (the one you put into your network configuration) can only respond quickly to the millions of requests because it caches most of the DNS records. When you request the IP address of www.google.com, you most likely get the cached result of a query by someone else to the same recursive DNS server that you use. If that server must ask again for the IP address of www.google.com, because Google wants to return a different record for your client IP than for the other guy's client IP, then the recursive resolver can no longer cache DNS records.

      You might say, why cache at all? DNS is a lightweight protocol and Google has to handle multiple HTTP requests later on anyway. Their servers can handle all the uncached DNS requests. That's true, but it only looks at one side of the problem. The other side is the recursive resolver. These servers handle the requests for all domains, not just Google's. If these servers can no longer cache DNS records, then the load becomes a real problem. Many recursive DNS servers already ignore excessively short TTL values for precisely this reason.

      The proper way to handle topological load balancing is anycast routing.

  8. Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The summary isn't even close to correct. What the hell is going on with Slashdot these days?

    1. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by ionix5891 · · Score: 2, Funny

      its ok they hate Micro$oft more (yes thats a dollar sign in there :D)

    2. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by NerveGas · · Score: 1

      Does accuracy matter? They got you to surf and comment, didn't they?

      --
      Oh, you're not stuck, you're just unable to let go of the onion rings.
    3. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by Nimey · · Score: 5, Informative

      These days?

      --
      Hail Eris, full of mischief...

      E pluribus sanguinem
    4. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They are just pissed because they didn't like the new iPad. :P
      That feeling should go soon.

    5. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by symes · · Score: 1

      The summary isn't even close to correct. What the hell is going on with Slashdot these days?

      Hormonal adolescence. To the new youth Google is the old guard. You mark my words, before long we'll be having deep and meaningful conversations about anarchy and the meaning of existance.

    6. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by Idiomatick · · Score: 1

      Its a part of a convoluted campaign to get people to rtfa on occasion.

    7. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by Denny_za · · Score: 1

      Digg overflow.

    8. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by HeckRuler · · Score: 1

      Yeah, what's up with that?
      Don't get me wrong, Google has MASSIVE potential for being evil. As does Microsoft. Which has actually been evil at various points in various ways. That potential comes with the power of brand recognition and coffers full of gold. But so far Google has not, in fact, been evil. There are probably some MS fanboys here who hate Google simply because it's threatening Microsoft. I imagine the same goes for the mac-boys, but I just can't see that happening too much.
      And then there are the freedom fighters and the (open opponents?) who distrust Google simply because it's a company. A corporation with shareholders.That's a fear I can understand, and more so each time the founders sell some stock, but you can't convict without a crime. It's good to be on guard, but this is ridiculous.

    9. Re:Wow, Slashdot editors hate Google by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Well, if this was Southpark you'd just say ...

      TIMMAH!!

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  9. Do no evil, at first anyway. by gimmebeer · · Score: 1

    Absolute power corrupts absolutly. There comes a point when attempting to control everything about the Internet is evil by default. Google is approaching critical mass.

  10. I agree with this by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After RTFM, I think it is a good idea. And sharing the first 3 octets of your IP shouldn't hurt your privacy, actually

  11. How's that evil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What a load of crap. There is no way to exploit that. If a someone wants to block certain IP ranges, it is much more efficient to do so at the HTTP (or whatever the protocol in use is) level, rather than in DNS.

    Even if this gets introduced, every DNS server will continue supporting the old (without 'IP forwarding') way of doing things, so it's easy enough to pick a DNS server which doesn't forward your IP. Everything will work just as it does now (you won't have the potential speed advantage you might get with the new system though).

    Whoever wrote TFS doesn't know the first thing about how networks work. Looking at what just happened in China, do you think that Google of all companies really wants to endanger your privacy?

    The reason why Google offers public DNS servers and why they came up with this is because they want to make the internet faster for everyone. And they're doing it in an open, backwards-compatible way.

    This is a good idea and should be implemented.

    1. Re:How's that evil? by slyborg · · Score: 1

      > The reason why Google offers public DNS servers and why they came up with this is because they want to make the internet faster for everyone.

      BAHHAHAHAHAHAHAAAHAA...Yes, Google only wants rainbows and ponies for ALL the good children!

      My good AC, I actually think you aren't a Google astroturf, but how naive can this be? Google is a public corporation whose fiduciary duty is to make money for their shareholders, not make the intertubes flow more smoothly, unless that causes Google to make more money.

      Google's beef with China was that China ripped off Google source code. Before this, they had no problems at all turning over email of human rights activists and censoring results in China. Their newfound interest in Chinese information freedom is the result of their rage at being made to look stupid and weak by the Chinese government.

    2. Re:How's that evil? by umonkey · · Score: 1

      Isn't there anycast already, which solves exactly this problem, and which Google already uses for its own public DNS service?

    3. Re:How's that evil? by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My good AC, I actually think you aren't a Google astroturf, but how naive can this be? Google is a public corporation whose fiduciary duty is to make money for their shareholders, not make the intertubes flow more smoothly, unless that causes Google to make more money.

      ...and if you don't see how that causes Google to make more money, you're an idiot. Extra points for calling someone "naive" for not being as gullible as you.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    4. Re:How's that evil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is no way to exploit that.

      Famous last words...

  12. This is important! by HaeMaker · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is extraordinarily important for efficient operation of the internet. If people want to block you, they can, DNS or no DNS. However, for global load balancing, this is vital. You want to connect to a server near you, not near your DNS server.

    This will not stop the proper function of proxies.

    1. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 1, Interesting

      NO IT ISN'T.

      domains can already manage their own worldwide content distribution networks, and route requests after they get to them.

      when large volumes of bits are involved, like most responses from cdn servers, then YES, "This is important!"... but for the dns request packets to also be pooled and routed in this fashion is unnecessary and as the submitter points out opens up massive privacy holes currently plugged.

      this isn't about single points of failure... it's purely load balancing that can already be done without sacrificing anything. google just has their hands on so much of the system that it makes sense to them, the same sense it would make for a video software developer to put a mpeg codec directly in the OS kernel...

      the layers are there for a reason.

    2. Re:This is important! by TheSunborn · · Score: 1

      So imagine we have servers in 2 different datacenters. Then an accident closes one of the datacenters. How would the current dns system allow os to redirect all trafic to our other datacenter?

    3. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 1

      are you joking? i'm not teaching classes here.

      your question is flawed. you obviously don't understand the system.

    4. Re:This is important! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      If you're attempting to contact the domain, the DNS server will have your domain anyway. The privacy stuff here is specious.

      You're thinking that this is about loadbalancing the DNS requests. That isn't the case, RTFA, etc. This about what HaeMaker said-- getting the user to the server closest to them, instead of to a completely arbitrary server halfway around the globe!

      How are you proposing to do loadbalancing when:
      0) If you haven't noticed, large sites DO have a sit-ton of traffic coming to and from them.
      1) HTTP doesn't allow for a redirect to another IP address using the same hostname (it relies *entirely on DNS for that)
      2) If you can't use DNS to direct to the appropriate host (via IP), then you have to route the traffic over the "wrong" links *twice*. That is a lot of bandwidth.

    5. Re:This is important! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I *so* would love this DNS extension for our F5 BigIP GTMs. We already use DNS response time for load balancing metrics, this would just be awesome.

    6. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 0, Troll

      it's not about the DNS server the user is using... it's about the DNS servers used by the DNS server the user is using... and any DNS servers they might use.

      that is not specious. that is a problem.

      the user never directly entered into any agreements with the service providers in the middle.

    7. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 1

      and the answer to all of your other bogus issues: CDN.

      good use on the quotes around "wrong"....

      you're right... it isn't "really" wrong.

    8. Re:This is important! by ubrgeek · · Score: 1

      Why can't they just use the IP address of the DNS server and assume (I know, I know. "Assume") the user is somewhat geographically close to the server and feed content from the appropriate source closest to that server? Does something like Comcast use only a couple of DNS servers or do the requests come from regional hubs? (Sorry if my question has an obvious answer; I'm really not overly DNS-savy.)

      --
      Bark less. Wag more.
    9. Re:This is important! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It doesn't. That's not what it is designed to do. Even with the extension, users would still get cached responses (as long as their resolver deems them close enough to a user who requested the record earlier on) and find themselves unable to connect until the TTL of the record (usually several hours).

      What you describe is a routing problem, not a DNS problem.

    10. Re:This is important! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're right-- you didn't enter into an agreement.
      Neither did the user enter into any agreements with any of the myriad of ISPs in the middle, nor in many many cases the operator of the server.
      Again, how does this make anything worse in regards to censorship? Any of the DNS servers in that chain up to the authoritative server could return a "Nope" response today. If they want to censor access to a site, it is trivial to do so today. If they want to prevent access to a set of IPs, it is trivial to do today.

      Loadbalancing and demand-shifting IS an important part of the internet. When you go to the grocery store, do you go to a random grocery store in the world, or do you go to the one that will give you the best service with some tradeoff with driving distance?

      You're not responding to anyone's points. You're saying they're all "bogus" without any thoughtful argument.
      I hate trolls. Give us that thoughtful argument!

    11. Re:This is important! by gparent · · Score: 1

      when large volumes of bits are involved, like most responses from cdn servers, then YES, "This is important!"... but for the dns request packets to also be pooled and routed in this fashion is unnecessary and as the submitter points out opens up massive privacy holes currently plugged.

      What "privacy" issues? Your DNS already knows your IP - You just sent data to it on the IP layers. If it wants to send you a NXDOMAIN based on your subnet, it already can.

    12. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 0, Troll

      here is my thoughtful argument in addition to a statement that your mother raised an idiot.

      grocery store analogy is retarded. i don't want any grocery store, i want a specific grocery store, but i don't know where it is. they have multiple locations.

      thank fully i can ask people where the nearest grocery store is.

      now at that point would i ask for the nearest grocery store, or a specific chain of grocery stores, or just any place i can get a sandwich?

      WE ARE TALKING ABOUT NETWORK DNS REQUESTS, NOT GROCERY STORES.

      YOU ARE AN IDIOT.

    13. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 1

      MY DNS server....

      what if MY DNS needs to use SOMEONE ELSE'S DNS server?

      i never entered into an agreement with them... my DNS provider did... so any requests THEY send should include THEIR info... NOT mine.

      the DNS layer isn't about load balancing, and shouldn't be.

    14. Re:This is important! by grmoc · · Score: 1

      No, unfortunately, I actually know what I'm talking about while you're being irrational and insulting.
      The analogy was an attempt to get you to understand the loadbalancing problem, which I'd really like for you to understand.

    15. Re:This is important! by madddddddddd · · Score: 0, Troll

      the LOAD for the RESPONSE is ALREADY HANDLED BY CDN.

      the load OF the REQUESTS is ALREADY HANDLED BY DNS.

      you are NOTHING.

    16. Re:This is important! by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Considering DNS servers are generally close to the user outside of the geek circle who has a relatively small group of people that use non-local servers its not really an issue.

      My DNS server is less than 20 feet away from this machine, and they share the same address as far as the Internet is concerned.

      Likewise, my ISP's name server is 1 hop away, and directly between me and the rest of the Internet, so once again, using my providers DNS server IP for geolocation is as good as using my IP for geolocation, the result should always be EXACTLY the same.

      This is true for 99.99% of the world.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  13. Google, you are wrong here. by Tei · · Score: 3, Informative

    Internet already work withouth the need to propagate this information. Following the OS concept of "Less power", the less information about you that is propagated, the less problems.

    "By returning different addresses to requests coming from different places, DNS can be used to load balance traffic and send users to a nearby server. For example, if you look up www.google.com from a computer in New York, it may resolve to an IP address pointing to a server in New York City. If you look up www.google.com from the Netherlands, the result could be an IP address pointing to a server in the Netherlands. Sending you to a nearby server improves speed, latency, and network utilization."

    It seems this balancing is already possible withouth the need to propagate that data. I choose here safety/privacy, over a potential speed gain. Also the risk is for everyone, but the gain is just for a few ones (the people that has lots of servers and need a balancing solution)... hence, is unfair. My view of this.

    --

    -Woof woof woof!

    1. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK, I'll bite. Prove it. How are you going to reliably route people to the nearest server without doing this with DNS? ..and you're honestly saying that large sites should tell their users to "stuff it" and send people halfway around the world (making for a piss poor experience as your page loads slowly thanks to the thin pipes through the oceans..) just because "it isn't fair" that they're a large site?

      Do you propose that we should all crawl everywhere because it is unfair that some people can run faster?

    2. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Internet already work withouth the need to propagate this information. Following the OS concept of "Less power", the less information about you that is propagated, the less problems.

      If Google wants to do it properly, they should register into DNS all of their servers, with some geographical naming scheme. If I am in San Jose and my computer is configured as such, then the resolver should first try san-jose.california.us.www.google.com before it tries www.google.com. If the lookup for san-jose.california.us.www.google.com fails, then I know that there is no server for that area, so the resolver can try something more generic.

      san-jose.california.us.www.google.com
      california.us.www.google.com
      us.www.google.com
      www.google.com

      A simple update to the resolver libraries on the client side would add support for this, and the transition can be made incrementally on both the DNS clients and the DNS servers.

    3. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I agree. If Google wants my computer to use an IP nearer to my physical location they will move to extend DNS to include the geographic data in the replies. That way they send me a list of IPs + geography data for each and I get to choose to honor or ignore it.

    4. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      Then choose a dns server that doesnt use these extensions, or choose one you trust.

    5. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If that's how you prioritize then no driving/riding any vehicles (hypocrite?)... crawl back into the pen you chicken, you!

    6. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They'd redirect users using using one of the 3xx redirect codes. You know, just like they do today, so when I'm in the UK and type www.google.com, I magically end up at www.google.co.uk, presumably hosted by a server that's closer to me.

    7. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      How is DNS handled in IPv6 again?

    8. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by GooberToo · · Score: 1

      AC is right! Mod this up.

      The response should include the geographic information and/or a priority which the resolver and/or client can use to determine best record for use.

      Its important for people to understand that geographic locality does NOT always mean shortest/fastest/lowest latency path. For example, did a trace route between me, my brother, and friend. Brother lives in neighboring town while friend lives several states away. The result, friend is 9 hops away. My brother, who is in the next town, is 16 hops and higher latency. Now, if we substitute brother and friend with server a and b, they'd be forcing me to use the worst path (highest latency, most hops). This exactly also holds true for games. Rarely would we all find game servers to play on where all three had equal standing based on latency.

      Locality is not everything they pretend it to be.

    9. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems this balancing is already possible withouth the need to propagate that data. I choose here safety/privacy, over a potential speed gain. Also the risk is for everyone, but the gain is just for a few ones (the people that has lots of servers and need a balancing solution)... hence, is unfair. My view of this.

      How are you suggesting that load-balancing is possible at the DNS level in the current DNS architecture?

    10. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell modded this dumbass up?

    11. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      God.. the amount of ignorance on Slashdot is just staggering.

      If you make a DNS request for the IP address(es) of a website's domain name, you are going to expose your exact IP address just 50-200 milliseconds later when you connect to the actual HTTP server. Take a fucking chill pill.. christ...

    12. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems this balancing is already possible withouth the need to propagate that data.

      Explain how. The people proposing this are not stupid, and demonstrating that this solution is wrong requires a solid argument with evidence.

      I choose here safety/privacy, over a potential speed gain. Also the risk is for everyone, but the gain is just for a few ones (the people that has lots of servers and need a balancing solution)... hence, is unfair.

      The gain is for every user of the servers that are load balanced using this scheme. The set of people who will benefit includes all users of Google. I don't understand why you think the set of people using Google is "a few ones".

    13. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      hence, is unfair. My view of this.

      No, unfair is the fact if you don't want to use the new feature, you can use the method called inaction and not actually put in the work and effort to change to the new system.

      Unfair is keeping those of us that want the option, from being able to choose that option, simply because you feel that you willingly and knowingly having to switch to the new option is somehow the meaning of 'mandatory'

      The old saying goes here. If you don't like cherry coke, then don't be stupid and buy a bunch of cherry coke.
      But just because you don't like it, doesn't mean everyone in the world is like you and also doesn't like it.
      Yet here you are wanting stores to not sell cherry coke because it will be there for people to choose to buy.

      * By the way, cherry coke is an analogy, not the subject of topic. (I can't believe such things need pointed out here)

    14. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Trogre · · Score: 1

      Dumb load balancing is possible with existing DNS - one request for a large site will result in a randomly-selected IP from a pool, as follows:

      #host www.google.com
      www.google.com is an alias for www.l.google.com.
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.99
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.104
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.147
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.106
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.105
      www.l.google.com has address 72.14.213.103

      Of course this has absolutely no redundancy, since there's no fallback protocol and it's utterly ignorant of location.

      This proposal by Google extends that idea significantly and looks to me like a good thing.

      --
      "Nine times out of ten, starting a fire is not the best way to solve the problem." - my wife
    15. Re:Google, you are wrong here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Following the OS concept of "Less power"...

      It's called the "end-to-end principle" in networking.

  14. A real possibility by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can also send any user to a "this page has been hacked by XXXX's cyber army" server, thus making psyops and propaganda easier.

  15. What about IPv6 by wadey · · Score: 2, Interesting

    It seems IPv6 will be in use soon; so why tinker with DNS requests on IPv4 ?

    Also, does anybody know how GEO locating an IP will be done on IPv6 (at least down to country level) ?

    1. Re:What about IPv6 by fluffy99 · · Score: 1

      It seems IPv6 will be in use soon; so why tinker with DNS requests on IPv4 ?

      Also, does anybody know how GEO locating an IP will be done on IPv6 (at least down to country level) ?

      The first part of an ipv6 address defines the Top Level Aggregator (TLA) and generally will tell you what region the address is assigned to. That's one of the benefits of ipv6 is greatly simplified routing tables

    2. Re:What about IPv6 by bobbomo · · Score: 0

      "For IPv6, there is no corresponding number that everyone agrees to, but the authors of the draft suggest truncating IPv6 addresses as well."

    3. Re:What about IPv6 by paul248 · · Score: 1

      It seems IPv6 will be in use soon; so why tinker with DNS requests on IPv4?

      Of course the extension supports IPv6. You'd have to be pretty dense to propose a new standard that doesn't.
      http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-vandergaast-edns-client-ip-00

      Also, does anybody know how GEO locating an IP will be done on IPv6 (at least down to country level) ?

      IPv6 geolocation will be done the exact same way as IPv4 geolocation: wild guesses and black magic.

  16. yah but they are already close by digitalsushi · · Score: 1

    this is what anycast routing was invented for. the root servers use it, why not secondaries?

    --
    slashdot: where everyone yells sarcastic metaphors to themselves to understand the issue
    1. Re:yah but they are already close by ekhben · · Score: 1

      Different problems to solve.

      The root servers (and other authoritative servers) use BGP anycast partly to distribute DNS query load, and partly to provide faster response time. Nice, "simple" problem.

      Some authoritative servers, typically CDN servers, give different answers to the same DNS question depending on the source IP address. There's a few advantages to doing it in DNS: first, BGP anycast is susceptible to route changes disrupting a TCP session, particularly if there's equal-weight choices to exit a router and least-saturation is used to select a best path. DNS routing "configures" the client at look-up time. At the very least any given single TCP session will always go to the same host. Next up, BGP anycast requires that you use an entire minimum routable block (currently a /24 in v4 and a /48 in v6) in which you only use a single IP address. It's very wasteful. In order for BGP anycast to work, you need to announce a routable block in multiple locations, and you need to be able to withdraw the route announcement if a location becomes unable to serve requests. If you host more than one service in that block, all services at a location must be withdrawn at the same time, which largely defeats the purpose. DNS routing allows you to use single IPs within blocks that other services also inhabit, since withdrawal of a service consists of no longer giving that answer. BGP anycast is good at increasing the availability of a service, since a route can be withdrawn in seconds, but DNS routing depends on cache expiry, and is better suited to load balancing. BGP anycast, on the other hand, is lousy at load balancing: you have to be very careful in your placement of anycast nodes, and constantly monitor and update locations and announcements, to ensure a reasonably even spread of load. DNS routing can do active and automatic load balancing, changing responses to preference less loaded servers.

      The Google draft is intended to improve the ability of DNS routing to cope with people doing stupid things like running a centralised DNS resolver whose IP address doesn't have a good correlation with the network location of the originating request. Like, say, Google does.

    2. Re:yah but they are already close by paul248 · · Score: 1

      You can't anycast HTTP, because TCP is stateful. If one of the endpoints starts routing to a different location, your connection craps out.

      Lots of secondary DNS servers do use anycast, but that's not relevant here.

  17. Needed, not evil... by nweaver · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are already many uses where the IP address of the resolver is used to determine service, basically every CDN etc uses this technique.

    This extension is needed if you want OpenDNS and the like to Not Suck when fetching Akamai sourced content, youtube videos, etc.

    And its not like the owner of the DNS authority won't find out who you are anyway, after all, you then CONTACT THEM DIRECTLY WITH YOUR IP ADDRESS!!

    --
    Test your net with Netalyzr
    1. Re:Needed, not evil... by madddddddddd · · Score: 1

      what about the DNS authority that the users DNS authority uses? or what about the DNS authority that DNS authority uses?

      currently the user defining IP is visible to the ISP and the domain owner the user requested. as it should be, as i have never entered into any agreements with anyone else.

    2. Re:Needed, not evil... by drachenstern · · Score: 1

      That's the part that I don't get about what people are moaning about. You're obviously connecting to the host server at the end, it's inherent in the DNS request (unless you're doing a whois or something, but that's not the same is it?).

      I think most people are getting jacked up about "could be used for tracking purposes".

      --
      2^3 * 31 * 647
    3. Re:Needed, not evil... by divisionbyzero · · Score: 1

      ++ Mod parent up. I wish I had mod point.

    4. Re:Needed, not evil... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The proper way to solve this problem is with anycast-routing, not with DNS. DNS records are cached. That is not a problem if the records only depend on the resolver's location (because that's where the cache is), but making DNS records depend on the location of the resolver's client can only work without caching at the resolving server level. Any perceived speed boost from contacting geographically closer web servers would be lost by first having to go around all DNS caches to get a location-dependent response directly from the authoritative DNS server. Anycast routing does not negatively impact cache performance and can still connect users to geographically closer servers.

    5. Re:Needed, not evil... by Liquidscript · · Score: 1

      I heard that the ACTA Treaty has already passed and ISPs have conspired to encode everyone's personal information into the IP addresses they give you. This means your IP address likely has your credit card information, your social security number, and your mother's maiden name, along with your bank account balances encoded into all 4 bytes! -- ***** ******, you're all a bunch of ****tards. The proposed addition to the DNS spec doesn't give anybody any new information that you aren't already giving them. The only logical difference between the old standard and the proposed standard is a lower average latency (meaning higher average speed) for EVERYONE on the entire internet when they visit ANY website, not just Google. This reduces the need for HTTP redirects or complicated server-side logic to forward your requests to collocated servers. "Collocated" means closer-to-you, it means faster internet, it means less waiting for pages to load, it means less wasted time for everyone, and it means more money for everyone that does commerce online. It means reduced engineering effort for EVERY internet business that hires software engineers, because they don't have to think about solving this problem because the DNS backbone of the internet will already solve it for them. I frankly find it baffling that 80% of the commenters are appalled that a website that they willingly visit might know who they are. Just as in real life, when you make transactions, when you interact with others, you put yourself out there and you reveal who you are. It's a fact of life. If you are appalled, don't use the internet, but don't be so ignorant that you **** up the internet for everyone else that's okay with using it.

    6. Re:Needed, not evil... by Liquidscript · · Score: 1

      P.S. My first two sentences were facetious. (not to be taken literally) The part starting at "***** ******" is meant to be taken literally. Slashdot, your text formatting sucks.

  18. Might be handy for global traffic distribution by toejam13 · · Score: 1

    There are several products currently on the market that allow you to perform geographic load distribution via DNS. These products look at your LDNS server's address and either attempt to triangulate using a reverse DNS lookup to the LDNS server, calculating number of hops and/or round-trip times to that LDNS from each of your sites, or they use static IP range tables broken down by region. The assumption is that a client in somewhat close proximity to their LDNS server.

    The problem with these methods is that some very large ISPs may use only a couple of LDNS servers for an entire continent. In the case of third party DNS services, it grows to being a couple of LDNS servers for the entire planet. So there is no geographic unity between client and LDNS server.

    This proposal helps a bit, but unless it includes a method where a LDNS server can be told that a DNS query's response is only good for that client's /24 subnet (or any varying mask bitlength), you'll still end up with clients clobbering each other with these geographic load distribution products unless you set the TTL to 1 second. That work around has the nasty side effect of increasing your DNS load by an exponential factor, which isn't good either.

    1. Re:Might be handy for global traffic distribution by amorsen · · Score: 1

      That work around has the nasty side effect of increasing your DNS load by an exponential factor, which isn't good either.

      Imagine you're hosting web servers. If you can handle N HTTP queries, you can also handle N DNS requests, unless your DNS servers are completely useless. Even with TTL 0, you'll only get at most the same number of DNS requests as you're getting HTTP queries.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
  19. I can't se how this give google any more data by TheSunborn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I can't se how this does give any more information to Google or other users.

    Example: If i do a lookup on www.slashdot.org then this query should newer hit any dns server controlled by Google.

    The only way a query would end up on a google controlled dns server, would be if the domain i looked up were owned by google, and in that case I don't care, because then I am about to visit the site anyway which mean they will have my entire ip.

  20. Hmmmmm... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 0, Troll

    Just what is google's problem lately?

  21. Missing part of the "do no evil" statement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Do no evil, just do the good ones in the ass."

    They just don't mention the 2nd part because they assUme everyone knows it by now. How's your ass, need some lube?

  22. it's about CDN geocaching, not a conspiracy by markhahn · · Score: 1

    look, you can already use whatever DNS server you want. if you're worried about your traffic being analyzed by someone else's DNS, just use your own (or a privacy-respecting) DNS elsewhere.

    DNS is just the obvious way to ensure that clients use the best path to content.

    1. Re:it's about CDN geocaching, not a conspiracy by cpghost · · Score: 1

      DNS is just the obvious way to ensure that clients use the best path to content.

      Isn't the obvious way a combination of anycast + bgp? It works quite well, and is administred by knowledgable network specialists who also happen to know the exact topology of their backbones. Putting it in DNS instead opens the door to endless misuse by domain owners who believe in geo-specific discrimination. CDNs should work transparently, but allowing end users (a.k.a. domain owners in this particular case) to tinker that is a really bad idea, IMHO.

      --
      cpghost at Cordula's Web.
    2. Re:it's about CDN geocaching, not a conspiracy by amorsen · · Score: 1

      You can't reliably anycast TCP. The session might switch servers in the middle.

      --
      Finally! A year of moderation! Ready for 2019?
    3. Re:it's about CDN geocaching, not a conspiracy by paul248 · · Score: 1

      Okay, so let's say you're running a CDN, and you plaster the globe with HTTP servers, using a block of anycast addresses. Everything will go swell until a BGP update causes an anycast route to change. Boom, you've just invalidated all the active TCP connections to that region.

      Maybe you could work around that by synchronizing the state of all TCP connections on all the servers around the world, but that doesn't even sound remotely scalable.

    4. Re:it's about CDN geocaching, not a conspiracy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      listen, idiot, the server you request pages from already knows your ip address and can discriminate based on that already. some of them already do.

  23. If it ain't broke... by TheDarkener · · Score: 1

    ...don't fix it.

    --
    It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
    1. Re:If it ain't broke... by LordLimecat · · Score: 1

      So youre a fan of sitting on internet explorer 7 for the next 10 years? Or firefox 2.0? Thats called stagnation.

    2. Re:If it ain't broke... by TheDarkener · · Score: 1

      So youre a fan of sitting on internet explorer 7 for the next 10 years? Or firefox 2.0?

      No, those both have plenty of vulnerabilities. They're broken.

      The DNS protocol is not broken. In fact, besides the tricks and hacks corporate Earth have tried with it (404 redirection as an example), it's worked pretty damn well for me for the past 20 years.

      --
      It is pitch black. You are likely to be eaten by a grue.
  24. Think about how this is working... by schon · · Score: 3, Informative

    With this DNS extension, they can see what sites buckets of people are visiting when they're NOT on google sites or where goog ads are being served.

    Umm, how is that, exactly? Assume this gets adopted - Google's DNS servers aren't authoritative for anyone other than Google - so they won't see your DNS requests... and even if they were, they'd only see traffic for the sites that Google DNS is authoritative for.

    Consider the fact that Google runs a caching DNS already, they don't need this - they'll already have the data for everyone using their resolver service, which would be much more data than this would get them.

    In short, I think your tinfoil hat is a little tight. This sounds to me like Google's DNS service has turned out to be using more of their bandwidth than they anticipated, and they're looking to reduce it.

    1. Re:Think about how this is working... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      right. this is really about fixing google's dns service. if i use the resolver from my isp the
      address is already likely to be close network-wise to where i am

      remind me why using a google resolver is a good enough idea for the end user that
      we need to change dns?

    2. Re:Think about how this is working... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It would seem that this proposal would use MORE bandwidth for the DNS service. If user A from California uses Google DNS to get an address, presumably Google caches that information. If user B from Germany now asked for the same site info also using Google DNS, does the DNS fire back the answer from cache which would not be geographically helpful or does it re-request the information for the site closest to Germany (under the new proposal)?

    3. Re:Think about how this is working... by Liquidscript · · Score: 1

      schon, I think it's more about decreasing the average latency of every DNS lookup on the entire internet for any client and any service making an internet transaction. When you think about the numbers, that's a lot of saved time. Even if you only save 100 ms for each request (due to talking to a collocated server), multiply that by the billions to trillions of internet requests made every day and you get: 1 billion * 100 milliseconds = 3.16887646 years That's 3 years of people time saved each day.

    4. Re:Think about how this is working... by Liquidscript · · Score: 1

      That's 1000 people years saved each year!

    5. Re:Think about how this is working... by BitZtream · · Score: 1

      Their going to reduce the data used by their DNS server by adding more data to each request they get? Somehow I think you and I have different ideas about what 'reduce' means.

      --
      Persistent Volume manager for Kubernetes - https://github.com/dwimsey/openshift-pvmanager
  25. Ups and Downs by LaminatorX · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I like it. I don't know what the aggregate increase in efficiency across the net would be, but I'm betting if Google is suggesting it, it could be significant. While there are some potential abuses, they're really no different than what can already be done at the router/server level currently.

    1. Re:Ups and Downs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I like it too. If you're concerned about privacy, just use a DNS resolver that doesn't support this extension.

    2. Re:Ups and Downs by ekhben · · Score: 1

      Google wants Google Public DNS to not suck when doing Akamai requests, that's all. No gains for anyone else, just increased query load and cache entries.

  26. Marginal Good, Whole lot of Bad by mpapet · · Score: 1

    The use of the word 'marginal' needs to be disambiguated too. It means 'not of central importance.'

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  27. Obligatory by sconeu · · Score: 1

    You must be new here.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    1. Re:Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I've got a three-digit UID, you insensitive clod!

      http://slashdot.org/zoo.pl?op=check&uid=666

  28. Intelligence at the ends, not the middle by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    The reason the internet is so successful is that it has a core that doesn't try to think too much. Get packet, forward packet, etc..

    If load balancing is a concern, the client node should determine where the best place to get content from is at, NOT some hack which makes DNS less reliable, and noisier.

    Use digital fountains and give out multiple sources to get streams from, and let the end user's computer figure it out. They are the ones in the best place to determine which is a more reliable stream of packets, not some aggregated delayed measure post facto.

    I don't like this idea. Round robin should be good enough.

  29. Privacy and internet by gmuslera · · Score: 1

    While this don't identify you for a lot of reasons, there are some good points of using this. Hitting local caches/distribution network nodes/etc will make internet actually faster (a good percent of total bandwidth comes from places where this applies, and going to somewhat local resources unclogs international links). At least where i live where around 200 ms is the avg ping time with the rest of the world, but 30 or lower to local ones, accessing most of static resources local should make a difference.

    And probably more important, dont forbids you to keep your privacy, old nameservers, or if you want, your own authoritative nameserver,will not send that information and you could use them

  30. Censoring the Axis of evil by stimpleton · · Score: 1

    " Or it would send a user from Iran or Libya to a 'domain name doesn't exist' server."

    Why limited to these countries? How about Australia? Remember, this is a country that blocked Wikileaks thru its state sanctioned banlist. Politicians there are on board.

    Even Linden Labs(makers of Second Life) have set up servers there(only 2-3 countries to have their servers outside the US). Critics theorize this is little to with technical distributed computing reasons but to be in readiness to self censor their content as LL seems to have had the opinion from Ozzie officials that Second Life in its current form would be "offensive". IE: against the law...like Child Porn etc.

    Google needs the tools to "keep sweet" with local authorities. These DNS changes would help them avoid being like Linden Labs situation.

    --

    In post Patriot Act America, the library books scan you.
    1. Re:Censoring the Axis of evil by nedlohs · · Score: 1

      Because that's whom the Iran and Libya Sanctions Act of 1996 applied to. Now that it's only applicable to Iran, saying "Iran and/or Libya" is just ingrained in the minds of those who care about not getting on the shit-list.

  31. Duh by TheNinjaroach · · Score: 5, Funny

    If you don't trust the website then why are you trying to connect to it?

    Free ringtones.

    --
    I went to eat some animal crackers and the box said, "Do not eat if seal is broken." I opened the box and sure enough..
  32. This is bad by BhaKi · · Score: 1, Insightful

    This is crap. You don't need user's IP address for load balancing. The only motives behind this are propaganda and psyops. For instance, this move will allow US to block traffic to certain sites from certain countries and then claim that access failures are due to censorship imposed by that country's government.

    --
    The largest prime factor of my UID is 263267.
    1. Re:This is bad by TheSunborn · · Score: 1

      So how do I redirect the user to the server that is closest to them without knowing their ip?

    2. Re:This is bad by BhaKi · · Score: 1

      So how do I redirect the user to the server that is closest to them without knowing their ip?

      Firstly, geographical proximity has nothing to do with quality of connectivity. (Some helpful fellow slashdotter pointed that to me, a few days back). So, redirecting user to nearest server doesn't help much. In fact, it could even slow down connectivity because of the computation involved in calculating proximities.

      Secondly, the existing system works just fine for location-based DNS redirection.

      --
      The largest prime factor of my UID is 263267.
    3. Re:This is bad by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      So how do I redirect the user to the server that is closest to them without knowing their ip?

      Firstly, geographical proximity has nothing to do with quality of connectivity. (Some helpful fellow slashdotter pointed that to me, a few days back). So, redirecting user to nearest server doesn't help much. In fact, it could even slow down connectivity because of the computation involved in calculating proximities.

      Secondly, the existing system works just fine for location-based DNS redirection.

      Firstly, getting the user's /24 IP address does not give you geographical proximity (without substantial additional work), instead it gives you the kind of "network proximity" that is precisely the kind of information that does aid you in directly them to a "closer" (in network terms) server.

      Secondly, your second point is... bizarre. The existing system simply doesn't offer this ability at all, you have to rig up some kind of kludge to get something like it, at the cost of all lot of additional IP traffic and complexity to get the same effect this would allow much more simply. If "works just fine" means "doesn't do this at all, really", then you're correct, otherwise, you're just plain wrong here.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    4. Re:This is bad by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      s/directly/directing/

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  33. Google is further away than your ISP by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    The way things currently work, really makes sense for most people. Your ISP is a single hop away and you want the authorities to talk to it (not you) so that it can cache the result. And it's ok to have that extra traffic between the recursive resolver and you, because it's not a long ride.

    But what Google is asking for also makes sense -- if you're using a far-away recursive resolver.

    And the very premise of that is stupid. Why the fuck would anyone want to use Google for DNS, instead of something closer (e.g. either their ISP or even a box on their very own LAN)?

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
    1. Re:Google is further away than your ISP by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > Why the fuck would anyone want to use Google for DNS, instead of something
      > closer (e.g. either their ISP or even a box on their very own LAN)?

      Because their ISP's DNS is crap and they are not competent to administer their own.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    2. Re:Google is further away than your ISP by nedlohs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because their ISP plays stupid games with DNS and setting the DNS numbers on the computer is a tad easier than setting up and running a DNS server.

    3. Re:Google is further away than your ISP by osu-neko · · Score: 2, Informative

      Why the fuck would anyone want to use Google for DNS, instead of something closer (e.g. either their ISP or even a box on their very own LAN)?

      Sadly, Google's DNS is something closer than the DNS server my ISP tells me to use if I don't want them hijacking misses.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  34. Countering censorship with more censorship by BhaKi · · Score: 1

    Or it would send a user from Iran or Libya to a 'domain name doesn't exist' server.

    And who would be the victims? The same people whom Google is claiming to be fighting for.

    --
    The largest prime factor of my UID is 263267.
  35. 252 Machines? Not really... by TBone · · Score: 1

    No, it narrows you down to somewhere within 252ish public IP addresses (even considering IPv6, which contains a standard rest-of-the-address to "encapsulate" IPv4). Very few people (I'll even go so far as to say "the majority of users") on broadband services across most of the world truly appear to the outside world as an actual unique IP address, which is to say you and the guy at the desk/apartment/house/whatever next to you has a discrete and separate network address from you. Your connection is generally going to be NAT translated in some form or another from a private-network-space IP address to a public address. You will appear, to the world, to be generally the same "computer" as several users around you in the network.

    --

    This space for rent. Call 1-800-STEAK4U

  36. Caching? Hello? by kindbud · · Score: 1

    So even if your resolver DNS already has the answer cached, it's supposed to transmit the request again so the authoritative server can see the requesting client's IP network, and possibly return a different answer. Is it supposed to cache that, or not? Is a resolver supposed to use this extension for all queries, or only load-balanced ones? The draft includes no mechanism for specifying whether a particular query should or should not use the extension. I assume then that a resolver patched with this extension would use it for all queries, which would completly negate the benefits of caching.

    So Google thinks obsoleting the DNS cache will help speed up web browsing? Really?

    --
    Edith Keeler Must Die
  37. What DNS Is Not by Rysc · · Score: 1

    This all sounds totally crazy if you're Paul Vixie and have written a little article titled What DNS Is Not which specifically mentions that it shouldn't be used for this.

    How quickly we forget.

    --
    I want my Cowboyneal
    1. Re:What DNS Is Not by Wowlapalooza · · Score: 1

      And, not surprisingly, Paul is throwing spitballs at the proposal in the IETF working group mailing list. Whoda thunk it?

    2. Re:What DNS Is Not by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      The problem being, when Paul Vixie says, "DNS was designed to express facts, not policies," he's either asserting a particular policy should be forced on all administrators, or asserting that the "facts" are something other than what they are on today's internet. Alas, this is far from the only example of Vixie attempting to enforce his policy decisions on others, while pretending it's some factual dispute and of course his idea of the way things should are the "facts" about the way it is.

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
    3. Re:What DNS Is Not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This all sounds totally crazy if you're Paul Vixie and have written a little article titled What DNS Is Not which specifically mentions that it shouldn't be used for this.

      That may be true, but this proposal mitigates the two reasons he said DNS should not be used for directing users to particular locations:

      First and foremost it is necessary to defeat or severely limit caching and reuse of this policy-based data ("DNS lies"). Caching and reuse, which once were considered essential to the performance and scalability of DNS, would allow a policy-based response intended for requester A also to be seen by requester B, which might not otherwise receive the same answer—for example, when server loads have changed and there's a new balance. The effects of this noncaching are a higher DNS request rate (perhaps leading to higher revenue for CDNs that charge by the transaction) and more network load for access-side networks and a slightly higher floor for average transaction time.

      This doesn't defeat caching. It does limit the cache entry's validity to a specific netblock. Paul Vixie might say that it "severely" limits caching, but that's subjective.

      Furthermore, it has never been wise to assume that a DNS request's IP source address gives any hint of an end-system Web browser's network location. This is because DNS requests heard by a CDN come from recursive DNS servers as a result of cache misses; they do not come from end systems themselves.

      This proposal explicitly adding something to determine the end-system Web browser's IP address. Google (and other providers) have been making the assumption Paul Vixie doesn't like (and I've seen the stats - though it's not perfect, it's pretty good), and now they're trying to stop.

  38. Re:252 Machines? Not really... by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

    I was under the impression my ISP was giving me a public IP Address - and thats what I was paying for. I am of course behind my own NAT Table on my Personal Router.

  39. What's with the irrational Google hate? by Mashdar · · Score: 1

    What's with the irrational Google hating?
    Can we at least find legitimate reasons to get upset?

    I feel like every day on /.has turned into April 1st. I never know which stories are terrifically blown out of proportion, terribly written, or just straight up lies (ie this article). Maybe we should actually read TFA before ranting about it? Or putting it on the front page... :( CmdrTaco....
    As others have said, the proposed change is not even to add your entire IP, just the bit that gives your general area. And they have your IP as soon as you use TCP anyway. Welcome to Internet.

    1. Re:What's with the irrational Google hate? by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      What's with the irrational Google hating?

      There was a lot of Google love at one time. Still is, really. There's also a large herd of people who are dreadfully concerned with being nonconformist, and consider themselves superior for being against what everyone else is for. Naturally, the beasts in this herd have become knee-jerk Google critics, since nothing makes you look like the sophisticated iconoclast like being gullible enough to believe every tinfoil theory put forward about Google. Obviously you're not naive if you automatically believe every conspiracy theory, right? "Look at me! I'm immune to their propaganda and see through all their evil plans! I'm so much more brilliant than the rest of you sheep." /eyeroll

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  40. IP Rotation by Aladrin · · Score: 1

    This will completely destroy IP rotation aka load balancing. I hope they aren't allowed to do it.

    --
    "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
  41. Two edged swords cut both ways. by almondo · · Score: 1

    And I see this as one. It does possess the potential and near certainty of improving the results of CDN targeting for users who use non-local DNS servers for resolution. Many of these third party non local DNS providers are thriving because so many 'service providers' are so utterly inept at delivering the net keystone component, DNS resolution. I don't now, and have not for many years rely on provider DNS servers for exactly this reason. This will help the third party DNS providers enable CDNs to do a better job. It will allow a better hit rate for sites that try to geotarget (we do). It has some very interesting potential side effects in the war on spam, botnets, hijacked IP blocks, etc which I won't get into or forget. Does it reduce fundamental anonymity somewhere? Maybe, but really I think that impact is lost if you actually make the connection to the A record you are given, I mean really, if your DNS request was tagged from 172.16.254.0/24, and then you connect to my server from 172.16.254.5, ah where is the foul? (RFC 1918 example IP addresses used to protect the innocent IP addresses). It does mean that I can tell you 'piss off mate' at the DNS level rather that doing it at the network service level which has some potential usefulness/humor value/abuseability but really only if you actually use a DNS server that has the extensions. Could some genius ISP think, "oh, we will railroad you into using this" ? Perhaps, but that will only captivate those who choose to be captivated, PAT, vpns, tunneling, anybody who wants to will drill a walk right through sized hole in that in short order. So, at the end of the day, personally, while I am a bit miffed about some of Google's other recent activity (the broken on off switch on the toolbar tracking and other BigBroMo activity comes to mind) I think this does have some strong technical merits and it's ability to be used in an evil manner is very limited in my opinion.

  42. So, no caching? by AnotherBlackHat · · Score: 1

    Sounds like a terrible idea to me.

    If a caching DNS server that serves multiple users in multiple countries, then suddenly, it's not caching anymore.
    If there are multiple possible IP addresses that I can be directed to, why not just send all of them to me, and let me (my DNS server) decide which one is best?
    What if have more than one IP? Which one should I use?
    How often is it, really, that the route to the DNS server isn't the best route anyway? I.e. is the tiny benefit of a slightly better route for a handful of people really worth making a change to something as basic as the DNS protocol?

    I'd rather see a way to redirect the connection - cut out the DNS middleman.

  43. How will it work for large internationalcompanies? by Richard+Steiner · · Score: 1

    The company I work for has a Class A IP network and is not based on the US.

    I'm physically located in Atlanta, but all of the existing geolocation services which I am aware of that use my exposed IP address seem to want to place me in the center of Europe somewhere.

    Will this be smart enough to do better?

    --
    Mainframe/UNIX Bit Twiddler and long time Windows/Linux Hobbyist.
    The Theorem Theorem: If If, Then Then.
  44. How About by sexconker · · Score: 1

    How about no?
    Z E R O benefit to this bullshit.

  45. Fantastic by RabidMonkey · · Score: 1

    We've been running into this wall for a while, and let me tell you, the workaround is the most disgusting mess imaginable. Trying to manage views/geolocation when everything is hidden behind a caching server is horrible. There is no car analogy.

    Sure, this might give google more information about you, but frankly, they already have it if you're querying their servers (directly). Where this benefits them, and other content players, is when they aren't the default DNS server. This allows them to know that you're coming from say, your city, as opposed to the city where your ISPs DNS server is. I would imagine for huge ISPs in the states, their DNS infrastructure is probably, at best, regionalized (east, central, west?). This would allow google/ms/anyone to get a much better idea as to where you are actually coming from, to provide you with much better content. As well, it makes managing DNS much easier.

    Two thumbs up for this.

    Next up - a DNS management protocol (http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-ietf-dnsop-name-server-management-reqs-03)...

    --
    We emerge from our mother's womb an unformatted diskette; our culture formats us. - Douglas Coupland
    1. Re:Fantastic by osu-neko · · Score: 1

      There is no car analogy.

      :o

      Where is BadAnalogyGuy when you need him...

      --
      "Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies."
  46. It's not google alone by Vainglorious+Coward · · Score: 1

    If i do a lookup on www.slashdot.org then this query should newer hit any dns server controlled by Google.

    The very first sentence of TA "...a group of DNS and content providers, including Neustar/UltraDNS and Google are publishing a proposal..." It's a way for providers of content and providers of DNS service to collude.

    --
    My next sig will be ready soon, but subscribers can beat the rush
  47. Don't like it? Circumvent it! by bilbo.fraggins · · Score: 1

    If you can learn how to use "tor", "stunnel", or "socks", you can simply appear to be coming from a different IP. This really doesn't seem to be a big deal. It doesn't sound much different from the root server anycast system currently in place that allows an IPv4 root server query to be routed to the actual root server closest the IP of the requesting server. The change I see is that instead of managing the server's IP (which often can identify the ISP of the requestor anyway) this identifies the class C subnet of the requesting client. (Get the grease off yer tinfoil hats on, Slashdotters!)

  48. For me, two problems... by rickb928 · · Score: 1

    1. Load-balancing doesn't belong in the DNS spec, and neither does location awareness. If you want to handle me differently based on my location, do it after I've found you. Tacking this onto DNS risks unexpected consequences beyond the political.

    2. From the article:

    "providing enough information to the authoritative nameserver to determine your network location, without affecting your privacy."

    Um, maybe I consider my location private. Would you mind asking me if I do first, ok? Thanks. And I do, so don't add this to DNS.

    And if this isn't reason enough, refer to problem #1 above.

    I get it. An idea to let DNS help you do something UNRELATED to DNS. Don't

    Where oh where is John Postel when you need him? May his spirit move us away from this...

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  49. To quote Paul Vixie, inventor of DNS: by tlambert · · Score: 3, Interesting

    To: DNSEXT (DNS Extension Working Group, Internet Engineering Task Force)
    From: Paul Vixie
    Date: Thu, 28 Jan 2010

    "I don't think that's a general enough solution to be worth standardizing.
    please investigate the larger context of client identity, beyond the needs
    of CDN's."

    I also agree with his later statement in the same thread:

    "it may be too dangerous in any form but that's a separate issue."

    -- Terry

    1. Re:To quote Paul Vixie, inventor of DNS: by madajb · · Score: 1

      Vixie didn't invent DNS. Hell, he didn't even create BIND.

      The name you want is Paul Mockapetris.

  50. Googles answer to the China problem? by tlambert · · Score: 1

    Googles answer to the China problem?

    The proposal says they would only use the first three octets. And users could just use a different DNS server if they had a restrictive servers that blacklisted Iran or whatever.

    Or as someone upstream, I could redirect all the requests in a 252 machine block to force them through a transparent proxy server so that I can monitor them. It sure makes it easier on my monitoring servers to not have to monitor everything, and on my network infrastructure, if I can monitor things with a high locality, instead of doubling or tripling my traffic to proxy things non-locally.

    This seems to be Googles answer to the China problem; by making it an infrastructure issue rather than a source-filtering issue, they get to be the "do no evil" people once again, offloading the nefarious actions onto the Chinese government, so that they can have a "clean conscience", without losing access to the Chinese market.

    -- Terry

  51. Enough privacy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seen in the article:

    • Only the first three octets, or top 24 bits, are sent providing enough information to the authoritative nameserver to determine your network location, without affecting your privacy.

    I have no problem with the first 24 bits if it's IPv6.

  52. Re:Google is already offering a free DNS service by neutrino38 · · Score: 1

    So all this can be seen as a new way to "organise the Internet information" according to them.

    In other word inviding again your privacy silently.

    If this was to be implemented, one could associate the IP sub network with a web site names without any need to use a search engine. Great for profiling. If performance was the issue, a better set of regional DNS caches would be more relevant here.

    I cannot help but suspect some hidden motives here.

  53. Sure it could expose me. by Ungrounded+Lightning · · Score: 2

    Now while this could theoretically be used to censor regions of users, it could not be used to expose you (since it isn't the complete IP address)

    Sure it could expose me. I have my own Class-Cs - two of 'em. When I'm on one the first three octets point straight to me.

    When I'm running from my DSL I have an eight-IP address block (broadcast / broken-broadcast / modem / five-usable) so first three octets point to a group of 32 of which I'm one. For DSL users with one-usable it points to a group of 64 users of which they're one. For unfettered PPP (such as dialup), where the IP addresses can be arbitrary, it's still one-in-256.

    Sorry, guys. One-in-64 (or even one-in-256) is too close to home for me.

    Doubly so because, once it's down to one-in-256, some governments will be willing to bust up to 255 innocents to get one guy they REALLY don't like. I don't like the idea, when I'm on the road, of being one of the innocent up-to-255 when some terrorist, spy, or whatever uses a dialup and we "win the lottery" and end up with the same first-three-octets.

    --
    Bantam Dominique roosters crow a four-note song. Once you've heard it as "Happy BIRTHday" you can't NOT hear it that way
  54. Could actually give us Swedes more privacy! by Dreadrik · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Since all Swedish internet traffic that crosses our borders is nowadays monitored by FRA (roughly NSA to you Americans), this could give companies an option to route traffic from Sweden directly to Swedish servers, without needing a redirect from the foreign servers. Of course, FRA could still see the request from the local DNS to the authorative DNS, but assuming this traffic is encrypted, it would make the FRA law look increasingly stupid and ineffective.

  55. life imitates art by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If sketchy porn sites can figure out within 50 miles where I am based off my ip I bet google and akamai can do it to figure it out too.

  56. Good ISP by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Shouldn't be this be left to your ISP?

    Your ISP should provide you the resolver that results in the most efficient results for your connection. Your ISP can make these division much better than CDN's ever can because you ISP knows exactly which pipe goes where with what capacity.

    My neighbor and me my be very near to each other but if we're on the border of some local loop divide we could be on totally different pipes of the same ISP, entering the net in different places. This is something my ISP knows and a CDN can only guess.

  57. Isn't Google backing out of China? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm pretty sure it's because they don't like censoring. They are publicly willing to sacrifice millions of dollars in revenue for an ideal. Yet, all you knuckle heads seem to be bickering about how evil Google is? Yikes. They've done nothing but push the internet forward at a pace much more rapid than anyone else.

  58. NOT BROKEN by Philip+K+Dickhead · · Score: 1
    --
    "Speaking the Truth in times of universal deceit is a revolutionary act." -- George Orwell
  59. Re:Caching? Hello? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are doing this on purpose: They hope that every ISP will upgrade
    their resolvers to support this feature (and basically turn them from caching
    to relays).

    They started to try to kill caching servers a long time ago by using very
    aggressive TTL values (and the ISP on the other side set rules on their
    resolvers to ignore TTL reasonable_value)

    Than, which content providers have the global infrastructure to
    bring authoritative servers close to the eyeballs everywhere? Google and maybe
    Akamai.

  60. Re:How will it work for large internationalcompani by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

    > Will this be smart enough to do better?

    No. Present geolocators look at your IP and conclude that you are in Europe. This will look at the first three octets of your IP and conclude the same thing.

    --
    Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
  61. Counter-argument by Vixie in ACM Queue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The argument against this proposal appeared in Paul Vixie's "What DNS Is Not" published in ACM Queue. See
    http://queue.acm.org/detail.cfm?id=1647302
    The section heading "Stupid DNS tricks" sums up the article.
    Paul is the long-time maintainer of BIND, the most popular DNS server.

  62. Re:How will it work for large internationalcompani by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    All this I-D does is provide authoritative nameservers with more precise information about the user than just the IP address of their recursive resolver.

    What an authoritative nameserver decides to do with the information has nothing to do with it, and I'm pretty sure Google and Akamai are smart enough to deal with the /8 of your employer.

    It's easy for you to check. If "ping www.google.com" gives you a RTT of >100ms, they're apparently dumb (or your nameserver is also too far away from you, maybe..). If the RTT is something sane (say, <30ms?) they figured out the /8 doesn't live all in one place.

    Proper CDNs don't just guess where you are from WHOIS information.

  63. Now there's a google shill by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    How did this get modded to a +5? Probably by Google employees, no doubt.

    "do you think that Google of all companies really wants to endanger your privacy?"

    Google's entire business model is about endangering your privacy as much as possible, and selling it as much as possible. And that's why they've been so hot to trot about hacking DNS for their own benefit.

  64. Intermediate DNS servers are the problem... by Eskarel · · Score: 1

    Yes, your local resolver knows your IP address. Yes, the final site knows your IP address, and yes the authoritative DNS server is probably associated with the site which will know your IP address.

    However, unless DNS has drastically changed, it's not a two hop journey. Your local DNS server doesn't go straight to the authoritative server for a domain to get the ip address of the site(at least it's not supposed to). As I remember it, if you get a cache miss, the request goes to the root DNS server for that TLD, which then passes it down the chain until each segment of the dns name has been resolved. It doesn't go straight from your dns server to www.slashdot.com it goes through the root server for .com first.

    That would mean that under this change the folks running the Christmas Island TLD would be able to tell within a reasonable distance exactly where the people looking at goatse live whereas before they'd only know what dns resolver they were using.

    That may or may not be a big deal, but it is a concern, and could potentially allow blacklisting at a level we haven't seen before. China could block people from the west from using google.cn regardless of which dns resolver they use and with no concern for what google themselves might think. It's actually much more interesting to block people who know what the uncensored content looks like from seeing the censored version than you might think.

  65. Google DNS by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Google: Hey I decided to create a DNS service, ditch your ISPs DNS and use mine.

    Me: Why?

    Google: Cause then we can find out exactly what you are browsing for and when. We can even correlate your DNS behaviour with our search results. This way we can even take an educated guess at what other search engines are doing.

    Me: Sweet, but by pointing at the Google DNS, won't I break stuff like location awareness.

    Google: Yep, thats why we want to change the way DNS works.

    Me: So now every DNS client needs to be changed so that Google can get better search results, That doesnt sound evil at all!

    Google: Exactly

    Google: Next we will get DNS servers to forward their logs to www.google.com/dnsanalytics

    Me: Why?

    Google: Just in case users dont use the Google DNS, then we can still get all the data that we need, the DNS owners will give it to us.

    Me: Sweet, finally I will get some targeted ads.

  66. pro Google bias on slashdot by 12357bd · · Score: 1

    262 comments

    msgs modded at 5 = 11: 10 are blatantly pro-Google, the other one = 5 Funny

    The moderation system is geing vandalized by Google fan boys.

    --
    What's in a sig?
  67. owning an IP address by circletimessquare · · Score: 2, Funny

    doesn't impress the babes anymore

    now you have to own your own Class-C before a woman even gives you a second glance

    and even then, they'll still flock to those assholes strutting around with those Class-Bs

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
  68. A custom HOSTS file stops your steps at #1 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "1. You do a DNS lookup. Your DNS server has your full IP address." - by natehoy (1608657) on Thursday January 28, @04:08PM (#30941196)

    That entire scenario gets stalled if you use a custom HOSTS file with hardcoded IP address to hostname/domainname equations in it set there since the hosts file is typically the first thing your bsd based IP stack goes looking to when attempting to resolve these addresses to an IP.

    E.G.:

    216.34.181.48 www.slashdot.org

    Avoids having to perform that lookup to a DNS server for this website's IP address period.

    To make certain this occurs first, in Windows at least, you check this area:

    Windows Registry Editor Version 5.00

    [HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Tcpip\ServiceProvider]
    "LocalPriority"=dword:00000006
    "HostsPriority"=dword:00000005
    "DnsPriority"=dword:00000007
    "NetbtPriority"=dword:00000008

    (LOWER NUMBERS HERE = GREATER PRIORITY and as you can see? I assign my HOSTS file the greatest priority)

    And you make sure the HOSTS file you use is not redirected, here in this registry entry (which does allow you to move it if you wish even):

    In regedit.exe's right-hand-side pane, follow this path:

    HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\Tcpip\Parameters

    & in the left-hand-side pane of regedit.exe, you change the DataBasePath path value there to the disk & folder you wish to place your HOSTS file in.

    Pretty simple. NO anonymous proxies, or TOR, or whatever else required.

  69. So, fixing problems that do not exist we are? by Kartu · · Score: 1
    There are so many caches around:
    • my ISP is caching dns names
    • my router is caching dns names
    • my PC is caching dns names
    • heck, I suspect even my browser is caching dns names

    So why, on planet Earth, do I need some "performance improvements" from google? Maybe because they aren't happy with how "popular" the http://code.google.com/speed/public-dns is?

  70. 2 reasons for this... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you use Google's public DNS, it means you will be able to connect to local CDNs (e.g. Akamai) as they will be able to tell where you are.

    Oh and I'm sure the Goog wants to do some sort of evil advertising stuff, which is fine by me as they already pwn me.