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Paypal Reverses Payments Made To Indians

bhagwad writes "Beginning January 28, Paypal has been reversing the payments made to any Indian provider of services. In addition, Indian users have been unable to withdraw their money to their bank accounts. As a result, a large number of Indian Paypal accounts have negative balances running into the thousands of dollars. The worst part is that users weren't informed beforehand — the funds were just whisked away. Indian providers have gone ballistic, with over 2,000 posts on a thread on the reversal of payments and over 700 posts on this thread about the delay in transfers. Paypal hasn't given any explanation to this behavior other than they're looking into it. Although Paypal claims in the above blog post that payments made for 'Services' are not being reversed, this is not true. All payments not made for 'Goods' with a shipping address have been reversed — in fact, the Paypal e-mail tells the Indian sellers to encourage their clients to lie and claim that they're paying for goods with a shipping address instead."

27 of 509 comments (clear)

  1. Makes me wonder... by lag10 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why anyone trusts PayPal with their money.

    1. Re:Makes me wonder... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nobody trusts Paypal, but there is no viable alternative. Not yet, anyway, but that can't take long in light of these shenenigans.

    2. Re:Makes me wonder... by davester666 · · Score: 5, Funny

      New meaning to the racist term "indian giver"...

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    3. Re:Makes me wonder... by MikeFM · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't. They arbitrarily started reversing all my payments after I'd shipped product and provided tracking numbers proving delivery. Cost me thousands of dollars and put me out of business. Now they want me to pay them $800 because they not only cleaned out my account but I guess gave away even more. And you pretty much have no recourse but to keep feeling out online forms asking what the frick is going on. Been using Google Checkout and Amazon Payments and they seem viable alternatives. I don't leave money sitting in accounts attached to order processing though because who knows what they'll do to you. Credit card / order protection is a scam. The venders get ripped for no reason. I think unless fraud can be proven there should be no refund and then it should become a legal matter. The credit companies charge fees but they don't cover any of the costs. It all comes from venders.

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    4. Re:Makes me wonder... by bvankuik · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No viable alternative? What about a normal bank transfer? I used to pay an Indian guy via Paypal but their charges are pretty steep. So I informed with my local European bank for the costs and it turns out this is much cheaper. Problem fixed.

    5. Re:Makes me wonder... by witherstaff · · Score: 5, Informative

      That's not very convenient for instant or simple online sales. Also you normally get hit with a $15 wire transfer fee on top of it. For large purchases it's doable, for paying some coder by the hour it'd be a hassle.

    6. Re:Makes me wonder... by terraformer · · Score: 5, Informative

      http://www.gunpal.net/
      It's an alternative.

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    7. Re:Makes me wonder... by brusk · · Score: 5, Informative

      No, it's a fee you pay for a regular wire transfer from one bank to another. Its absence is what makes PayPal so convenient.

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    8. Re:Makes me wonder... by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Interesting

      No viable alternative? What about a normal bank transfer?

      The US does not allow for that. The banks don't link into other banking systems seamlessly. They treat the account number as a password (despite it being on the face of every check). The US just doesn't do it. Most of the other countries on the planet have banks that let you transfer money to other banks in that country with a phone call, over the web, in a branch, or maybe even other ways without any problems at all. A large portion of money moves directly between banks electronically (rather than checks, as used in the US).

      Hell, I have a fellow customer at the same branch of a US bank that wanted to send me money. It's impossible, according to Wells Fargo, to transfer more than $1000 from one account holder to another. The person may have been misinformed, but the person trying to get me money tried more than once with different people and couldn't do it. The only option is to not transfer it within the bank (meaning, withdrawal the money completely, the deposit it again, which can be done at the same time at the teller, but can't be done by phone, fax, ATM, online, or such, when such options are available outside the US almost everywhere).

      With that system, I declare that to be "no viable alternative."

    9. Re:Makes me wonder... by Teun · · Score: 4, Informative
      Meanwhile a large swath of the world gets on:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Bank_Account_Number

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    10. Re:Makes me wonder... by Stanislav_J · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Never, never, EVER use an ATM to make a deposit. I learned that the hard way. That receipt it spits out is worthless if the contents of that envelope are misplaced, lost, or stolen. Until a human being actually verifies those contents, there is no deposit. And if the envelope, or its contents, pull a disappearing act twixt machine and homo sapiens, you're screwed. You can wave the little receipt in their face and yell and scream and make dire threats, and you will simply be told that the machine receipt isn't worth a pitcher of warm piss. After all, think about it from their point of view -- one could put an empty envelope in the thing while punching in a $500 deposit, and then claim that it was stolen or otherwise misplaced. So, there is no deposit until a bank employee says there is a deposit.

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    11. Re:Makes me wonder... by Rophuine · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Paper records can be easily forged and it takes tools most banks don't have to tell when and by whom. Electronic records are more secure.

    12. Re:Makes me wonder... by Rophuine · · Score: 5, Informative

      Anywhere but the US, you just sign in to your internet banking account, key in his branch ID and account number, and away the money floats, on a surge of digital freedom! In the US however, try this approach, and your rent just become $355.

  2. Banking Reform by PingXao · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Banking reform in the US should include subjecting PayPal to all the rules and regulations that apply to banks. I find it strange how they've managed to avoid being classed as a bank all these years in the first place. Current regulations leave a lot to be desired, but making PayPal adhere to them would be a good first step.

    1. Re:Banking Reform by BondGamer · · Score: 4, Informative

      Why should they be a bank? Their primary purpose is enabling transactions not the usual roles of banks.

      Yeah, they only hold, transfer, convert, store, send, give cashback bonuses, interest, etc. They are nothing like a bank at all.

    2. Re:Banking Reform by Tacvek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What Paypal does is actually very similar to what many banks do at least from the user's perspective. Both hold money in accounts, and provide ways to transfer money. Banks provide checks and debit cards for this purpose.

      I will admit that Paypal does not offer loans, nor does it over things like savings accounts, but from a user experience they are very similar to a bank where they have only a checking account.

      If Paypal does not bother to invest the money sitting dormant in accounts, then many regulations would have only minimal impact on them, since they would be keeping full reserves rather than fractional reserves. The regulations we really want are those that prevent banks from freezing accounts for no valid reason, and from interfering with valid transactions. The procedures already in place for banks on both of these points would really help protect users.

      I will admit though that overall Paypal's primary purpose is more like that of American Express than a bank, but the way they do it is debit based rather than credit based, meaning a whole bunch of regulations that would not apply to AmEx could be applicable.

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    3. Re:Banking Reform by YrWrstNtmr · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Why should they be a bank? Their primary purpose is enabling transactions not the usual roles of banks.

      They hold user accounts - you can keep money there.
      PayPal credit
      PayPal Money Market funds.

      Sure smells like a bank to me.

  3. Who will be manning the call centers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Who will be manning the call centers to handle the complaints?

    1. Re:Who will be manning the call centers... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      Posted anonymously to keep moderation.

      http://www.paypalwarning.com/paypal_phone_number

  4. Due to RBI regulations by kai_hiwatari · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is due to some change in the regulations by the Reserve Bank of India (RBI) regarding offshore money transfers. I read somewhere that RBI is demanding some documents form PayPal to make them eligible to transfer money to and from Indian Banks. Apparently PayPal hasn't been able to furnish those documents.

    1. Re:Due to RBI regulations by iammani · · Score: 4, Informative

      Of course. Paypal has to be registered with the RBI to make forex (foreign exchange) transfers. Every time someone converts rupees in dollars or vice-versa, the source and destination of transfer and reason have to made available to the RBI.

      Apart from these, Paypal would also be subjected to regulations governing these transactions.

      The problem is Paypal doesnt want to be regulated as bank but wants to be able to perform what banks do. And this does not go well with the RBI.

  5. Re:Paypal's unspoken motto by TheKidWho · · Score: 4, Funny

    loosing?

  6. Re:Paypal's unspoken motto by biryokumaru · · Score: 4, Funny

    He's getting his fleet of hundreds of thousands underway by loosing the sails.

    --
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  7. My theory by wealthychef · · Score: 5, Funny

    I think PayPal is run by cowboys.

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  8. Dear PayPal by codepunk · · Score: 4, Funny

    Please do the needful!

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  9. Re:You don't seem to understand what a bank is. by AK+Marc · · Score: 4, Informative

    You don't understand how the regulation was sold. The regulation was needed because banks lend (you call it creating and destroying money, others call it lending). This allows a bank to fail. Paypal *can't* fail from that. They hold money, but don't lend or borrow against it. So I understand your point. But, from how the regulation was sold to the people, you are 100% wrong. It was never sold as "banks create and destroy money, so they need regulation." It was sold as "banks have your money, and to make sure that they give you your money when you ask for it, they need to be regulated." From the manner in which banking regulation is sold to the America public, Paypal is a bank and should be regulated like one.

    I understand that your argument is that the sale of that regulation was a lie, and the banking industry isn't about holding money (but borrowing and lending against it), but I think you are wrong.

    Not to mention, you are begging the question. You assume that they don't lend against the money they hold. Even if I agreed with your logic (and I don't) you have assumed a premise that has never been addressed. When you prove Paypal doesn't lend money (and I consider buying stock or bonds to be lending money, for this exercise, as one could default on that debt and have the same result), then we can address the logic I don't agree with.

  10. Re:Paypal is not a bank by canajin56 · · Score: 4, Informative

    You're only allowing for one iteration! I put $100 in bank A, the bank loans out $80 to you. What do you do with it? Burn it? Probably not. Probably you spend it. Wherever you spend it, it ends up in a bank account. Now bank B (or maybe bank A) has $80, and so at 20% reserve, they can loan out $64 more. That $64 end up in bank A, B, or C, and they can lend out 80% of that, too. sum (i = 1 .. infinity) ($100 x 80%^i) = $400. The "wrong" number of $900 is what happens to the sum if the reserve rate is 10% not 20%. $400 or $900, the banks are still creating many times more fictional money than they actually have. Now, some money does get lost, some money gets spent buying things that goes to employees that goes to cash that maybe doesn't all end up in a bank. But it's pretty damn close. In fact, in the link you said doesn't support the $900 number, they cite a bank operating on a ratio of about 11.5%. Meaning that just every $100 in an account that was cash, there is $850 that is fictional.

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