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Subversive Groups Must Now Register In South Carolina
Hugh Pickens writes "The Raw Story reports that terrorists who want to overthrow the United States government must now register with South Carolina's Secretary of State and declare their intentions — or face a $25,000 fine and up to 10 years in prison. The 'Subversive Activities Registration Act' passed last year in South Carolina and now officially on the books states that 'every member of a subversive organization, or an organization subject to foreign control, every foreign agent and every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State.'"
slashdot requires all first posters to register.
No one thought to do this pre 9/11.
I am not left-handed, either!
I mean, I don't want to have to drive all the way to South Carolina if I can avoid it. Especially with gas prices the way they are now, and subversive equipment costs going through the roof.
Everything you know is wrong, Just forget the words and sing along.
Well, if they did that then they wouldn't be subversive now, would they?
What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable
Don't like someone badmouthing the government? Require them to register. Then when they (obviously) don't do it, stick 'em in jail and take their money.
Enjoy your democracy, guys.
I thought my evil master plan for overthrowing the government was PERFECT! Nobody could have known what I was up to!
And now I have to tell them myself?
Oh well...
The story also states that it only costs $5 to register. At least it's not expensive to get on such an exclusive list!
Only criminals will secretly be Terrorists. :( ...
PANIC!
Freedom of association and the right to espouse political views anonymously have been upheld frequently by the highest courts, so this is just a matter of paper politics.
If you intend to do anything illegal you must register. If you litter and have not registered your intention to litter we're going to come down hard on you! Planning to kill your spouse? Register now, and get 20% off your sentence! Planning to rob a bank? Registration before Feb 15th gives you 10% off your sentence. Planning a terrorist act? Just call 1-900-TERR-RIST, and we'll go easy on you if you don't make it right away to your chosen form of heaven.
Seriously, what kind of bass awkwards government scheme is this? If your penalties for commiting a crime are too lax, tighten them. Otherwise expecting people to register their intention of breaking the law (and inciting the overthrow of the government isn't just simple free speech folks. If you think it is maybe you're so messed up this law will work on you) is pure nonsense.
The muppets coming up with this should be....oh wait I'd have to register to say that....
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Hmm $5 charge..... What do you want to bet the Republican and Democratic parties, Tea Party, Police Departments, Exxon, Greenpeace, Chase Bank, Hillary Clinton, Rush Limbaugh, Goldman Sachs, everyone's ex's and pretty much everyone else anyone dislikes all find 'helpful' people registering on their behalf? If this list feeds to the no fly list there's going to be hell to pay.
They're not planning to overthrow the government. They already have. Don't be fooled just because there's a Democrat in the White House. Democrats vs. Republicans is just a puppet show they put on to keep us all distracted and divided. Meanwhile, Obama and Bush have more interests in common with each other than either of them do with The People.
This is just like those "marijuana tax stamp" acts. Laws like that typicly just end up being used to tack on extra years when you get convicted, and/or to assist the prosecutors since the more laws you break the easier it is to convict. IMHO, it's a waste of time since any serious act (ie, assault, murder) comitted by such a group is going to get them life or worse (does SC have the death penalty?)
For all intensive purposes, "whom" is no longer a word. That begs the question, "who cares"?
I can see other states passing laws such as this. I would think that if you were planning on overthrowing the government, doing so "legally" by registering your intent probably wouldn't seem like the brightest idea. This is akin to requiring bank robbers to register before they go rob a bank. Who in their right mind would do anything? Also notice that it says on the clause:
"(1) "Subversive organization" means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means;
"advocate"........."advise".......... These words are the result of sharing your opinion. You "advocate" or you "advise" somebody on a matter. This basically makes thought and speech crimes if you do not register to speak your opinion. If we share opinions then we need to register. I honestly cannot fathom what crime this useless law is meant to deter from, nor see how it will protect anyone from anything. Any sort of restrictions on free speech and the right to assembly (also attacked here) are movements towards taking power and freedoms away from people. My oh my how utterly un-american we have so become........the sad part is that the people that vote these laws into action consider themselves patriots (notice how patriotism is explicitly exempt from this law, which opens up all sorts of avenues......militias are patriotic too........) I hope they gave George and Tom lots of space to roll in their coffins......................
America.....pure irony at its best!
zosxavius photography
These sort of laws always seem so ridiculous until you learn how criminal law comes into application in real practice. Laws like this one enable police organizations to expand their scope of suspicions to an area of law that is less scrutinized that violent crimes. This type of law is also used to enhance punishments during investigations for the cases where say, the police are pretty sure these guys were planning to do some terrorizing but couldn't prove it but with this law they can show the far more vague notion of being a group with desires for overthrowing gov't. (Wouldn't many republicans count? hehe, anyway...) so they can put them in jail or otherwise limit their freedom of movement and privacy while continuing to investigate and try to prove more malicious actions or intent.
So the law might seem ridiculous but it's exactly this kind of law that is constantly misused and abused in our legal/police system every day, both for good and bad.
On a related note, many traffic codes and laws are created for the purpose of enhancing fines and punishments allowable to people who cause accidents. Consider any traffic law that seems impossible to catch a person breaking, then realize that when that person crashes or causes a crash, any number of such laws can be applied, merely with witness testimony, to enhance fines and so on. For example, many states have had laws for years that require you use your hands for nothing besides driving. This is classically used to assert fault on, say, a woman doing her make-up while driving or a driver distracted by children. They just need an eye witness to corroborate for determination of fault.
I read the script, and I think it would help my character's motivation if he was on fire. -Bender
Is it just me or is there an increase in the number of new laws (not just in the US) that basically state that it's illegal to do illegal stuff? I'm trying to find the rational explanation for that, but so far I've failed.
Opus: the Swiss army knife of audio codec
From TFA - this is any group that "directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States".
Lobbyist groups are all about controlling the government (via substantial bribes). Does this mean they need to register?
From jail, with lots of money, paying a team of very good (and very expensive) lawyers, over years, while the matter proceeds through court after court? With no certainty that the SCOTUS, which has approved many an unconstitutional matter, will see things the constitutional way?
Tell you what. You try again. I'll just quietly think my thoughts without involving the whole broken system.
I've fallen off your lawn, and I can't get up.
Sounds like an end-run around the First Amendment. The legislators probably realized that an outright ban on such groups would amount to prior restraint of free speech, so they figured they could achieve essentially the same effect by attempting to regulate your right to free speech, knowing that no sane person (or group) would willingly put themselves under the government's microscope. This is straight out of the playbook of J. Edgar Hoover. I am not a lawyer.
...is currently planning on overthrowing the existing government of the United States. Have they registered?
Hahaha. If you bothered to read the statute, there is a useful clarification (emphasis added):
"(1) 'Subversive organization' means every corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons, which directly or indirectly advocates, advises, teaches or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States, of this State or of any political subdivision thereof by force or violence or other unlawful means;"
Anarchists, unite!
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
I think this is a joke. I highly doubt a group of people willing to kill themselves by crashing planes into buildings would be disueded by the threat of jail time and a fine.
And that, of course, is the entire point of this legislation. The idea is that "subversives" won't register. That way you get to fine and imprison people for belonging to organisations, all the time pretending that you are not infringing on their rights of speech or assembly.
Cute.
Better to be despised for too anxious apprehensions, than ruined by too confident a security. --Edmund Burke
I drove through South Carolina not long ago. You see lots of rebel flags flying, especially in the rural areas. Is that subversive? Is the state going to go after them?
I used to say the same thing, except I've come to realize it's all semantics, and the constitution never meant a damn thing, not since its ratification, not now, not ever.
It seems to me that right about the time a government passes such a ridiculous law it's time for it to be overthrown.
Interesting. So when Jefferson said “Every generation needs a new revolution” and “The spirit of resistance to government is so valuable on certain occasions that I wish it to be always kept alive”, he would have easily been facing 10 years and a $25K fine for advising the [duty|necessity] of overthrowing the government
Perhaps they need a law that requires registration of fuckwit legislators, so when they pass laws like this we can send them to Gitmo or something.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
Trouble with things like this is, they written broadly and we're assured they only want to fight "terrorists".... and then they go on to use it against political enemies, because verbal assurances that they'll follow intent are only worth the paper they're printed on. In law, the wording is all that matters. If it lets them jail someone for saying "fuck the police! Fuck the legislature! Fuck Congress! You all need to be run out of town!", then sooner or later an angry little pissant cracker DA with an axe to grind against the speaker is going to use it simply because he can.
If a job's not worth doing, it's not worth doing right.
How about something like this (feel free to democratically suggest improvements or point out issues): When a law finally makes it's way through all the courts and the Supreme Court finds it unconstitutional how about putting *every single last bastard* who voted for it on trial for treason? The Supreme Court could decide if it was an obvious case which would make it more difficult to get out of, an hysteria case which would allow reparations to more easily flow, or a subtle case which a voter could get out of with a slap on the wrist simply by admitting their stupidity. Seriously, a little bit of responsibility? I know politicians hate that word when applied to *them*, but come on: throwing insult after insult at the wall knowing that a few of them will stick is the antithesis of what I thought the USA was. It you are going to, as a politician, betray the blood spilled by countless of your ancestors for the freedom you enjoy, well, I'd like to see yours spilled in return.
Shh.
I live in Nebraska, but I'd like to register anyway. I have advocated "controlling and conducting" the government by means of encouraging others to vote for the candidates I like and by donating time and money to their campaigns. By South Carolina's standard, I'm a subversive. Would I get a registration form I could hang on my wall next to my college diploma, a share of SCOX stock, and a Church of the SubGenius ordination certificate?
Actually, I'm kind of serious about that. In a dream world, I'd like to see a few hundred million people register as South Carolina subversives.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
The feds beat them to it a long time ago..... but they will probably just throw you in prison for 20 years. Amazing that I can be jailed for this longer than I can be jailed for attempted murder. Just for ADVOCATING revolution. This is disgusting. I feel a storm brewing.
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 115 > 2385
2385. Advocating overthrow of Government
Whoever knowingly or willfully advocates, abets, advises, or teaches the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying the government of the United States or the government of any State, Territory, District or Possession thereof, or the government of any political subdivision therein, by force or violence, or by the assassination of any officer of any such government; or
Whoever, with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of any such government, prints, publishes, edits, issues, circulates, sells, distributes, or publicly displays any written or printed matter advocating, advising, or teaching the duty, necessity, desirability, or propriety of overthrowing or destroying any government in the United States by force or violence, or attempts to do so; or
Whoever organizes or helps or attempts to organize any society, group, or assembly of persons who teach, advocate, or encourage the overthrow or destruction of any such government by force or violence; or becomes or is a member of, or affiliates with, any such society, group, or assembly of persons, knowing the purposes thereof—
Shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than twenty years, or both, and shall be ineligible for employment by the United States or any department or agency thereof, for the five years next following his conviction.
'every member of a subversive organization, or an organization subject to foreign control, every foreign agent and every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government of the United States ... shall register with the Secretary of State.'
Do they ever even consider running these things past a high school English teacher or equivalent before they put them to a vote?
I mean what is the definition of “subversive”? “Does not conform to party lines, like in China”?
By my definition, all TV stations and political parties are subversive and perverse. Now what?
Any sufficiently advanced intelligence is indistinguishable from stupidity.
" every person who advocates, teaches, advises or practices the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government"
Political parties certainly advocate and advise the controlling and conducting of the government. I hope all those politicians are registering.
I guess this means secessionist groups must now register in South Carolina.
What is this world coming to?
Any chance George Soros would count as a foreign organization plotting the overthrow of the US Gov't?
Just a thought...
Any reason to think this would withstand a constitutional challenge?
Ken
Dear South Carolina,
As requested, we hereby notify you that we are a "Subversive organization" --a corporation, society, association, camp, group, bund, political party, assembly, body or organization, composed of two or more persons. We hope to directly or indirectly advocate, advise, teach or practice the duty, necessity or propriety of controlling, conducting, seizing or overthrowing the government the State of South Carolina and any political subdivision thereof by unlawful means.
Specifically, we wish to advocate doing so by (1) collecting money from business organizations, then (2) using this money to support the campaign efforts of a sufficient number of elected officials to obtain majority influence over the elected branches of the Government of South Carolina. We will solicit and accept donations from corporations subject to foreign control, such as Sonoco Products, SCANA Corporation, Bowater, Inc., and other corporate entities with major investments in both South Carolina and the rest of the world. They do not have to be Fortune 500 companies! We're willing to include profitable corporations of any size, regardless of the national allegiances of their stockholders, board members, or executives.
We will, by funding the continuation of the careers of elected officials in the State of South Carolina, hope to directly or indirectly influence them to pursue policies favorable to the business interests of our donors, particularly when these interests conflict with the rights provided in the constitutions of the State of Carolina and the United States. As we anticipate that these conflicts will be of a constitutional nature, this should suffice to be unlawful enough to warrant registration under your recent legislation. Hopefully you will find this suitably subversive.
Included with our registration fee you will find a 15% gratuity. Please consider this a token of our appreciation of your ongoing efforts to make the realization of our goals easier.
Looking forward to seeing you at the President's Day golf outing. Looks like the weather will keep us in the clubhouse!
Toodles,
-The Old Boy Network
You have to be planning to overthrow the government by violent or unlawful means.
Okay... So you want to overthrow the government by non-violent and lawful means. Therefore, you need to register, because not registering means you are doing so through unlawful means.
Mind the frickin' laser...
As far as I can see, if your interest in overthrowing the government is purely recreational, you're not covered by this law.
-- Old Man Kensey
According to Eugene Volokh, the law was actually passed in 1951, is something of a dead letter, and they're currently trying to repeal it. Sorry to spoil all the hand-wringing.
No statement is true, not even this one.