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Is Plagiarism In Literature Just Sampling?

ardent99 writes "According to the NY Times today, Helene Hegemann's first book has been moving up the best-seller list in Germany and is a finalist for a major book prize. While originally this was notable because Hegemann is only 17 and this is her first book, and so earned praise as a prodigy, what's interesting now about this story is that she has been caught plagiarizing many passages in the book. Amazingly, she has not denied it, but instead claims there is nothing wrong with it. She claims that she is part of a new generation that has grown up with mixing and sampling in all media, including music and art, and this is legitimate in modern culture. Have we entered a new era where plagiarism is not just tolerated, but seen as normal? Is this the ultimate in cynicism, or is it simply a brash attempt to get away with something now that she's been caught? Is her claim to legitimacy compromised by the fact that she only admitted it after it was discovered by someone else? And finally, if 'sampling' is not acceptable in literature, is this reason to rethink the legitimacy of musical sampling?"

22 of 449 comments (clear)

  1. No. by pwnies · · Score: 4, Informative

    The difference between bands like Girl Talk who sample music to create new pieces, and someone copying someone else's words into a paper they're writing, is that Girl Talk doesn't claim to have made the samples. One of the aspects of why plagiarism is seen as wrong is because you're taking credit for someone else's work. When you're sampling music, you're crediting them.

    1. Re:No. by mrsquid0 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That is a very good point. Sampling would be taking a short section of text and putting using in quotes, or otherwise acknowledging in your work that you are using something that someone else wrote.

      --
      Just because you are paranoid does not mean that no-one is out to get you.
    2. Re:No. by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you sample music to make your own song, you'd better credit properly and pay or else the original songwriter will end up owning your song. The Verve's Bittersweet Symphony is a classic example of that. The music behind the band is a remix of The Rolling Stone's "You Can't Always Get What You Want" and since they didn't license and credit that, The Stones now get 100% of the royalty payments for that song.

    3. Re:No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, the Verve did license that sample but lost in court anyway (the owner of the original recording thought they used "too much" of the sample, and the court agreed. I still find it to be incredible BS, the string loop isn't that long. Their real complaint was that the song became a hit and the lawyers smelled money). So the real lesson is "music industry people will screw you"

    4. Re:No. by crimsonshdw · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We have sampling in literature already. It's called citation and quotation. Helene Hegemann took someone else's work and presented it as her own, which I find disingenuous. Had she come out when she released the book and said she "collaged" works for the book that would have been one thing. That concept would have made for an interesting critique on a different media for "mash-ups". I do not personally view what she did as mixing and expanding upon an idea in the same concept of a mashup because she lacked the openness to express what her intention was. pwnies really sums up my opinion, with an excellent point of reference (Girl Talk).

    5. Re:No. by davecb · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Indeed: in writing, one commonly samples other people's work using a moderately well-known process called "quoting". I'm mildly surprised she hasn't heard of it.

      In quoting, one marks the material quoted with either in-line or block quotes, and lists the source, usually at the bottom of the page in something called a "footnote" (;-))

      --dave

      --
      davecb@spamcop.net
    6. Re:No. by reverseengineer · · Score: 5, Informative

      In the United States, since 1991, the date of Grand Upright Music, Ltd v. Warner Bros. Records Inc., music samples need to be cleared by the copyright holder. That's what seems to be the real distinction here- you cannot consider literary plagarism to be analogous to music sampling because in fact legal music sampling is nothing like plagarism- works are cited, permission is requested and granted and often a considerable sum of money or share of future earnings takes place.

      --
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    7. Re:No. by dj961 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Non-fiction readers would disagree on quoting being distracting. Lifting an entire page is hardly sampling. It outright theft.

    8. Re:No. by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 4, Funny

      Indeed: in writing, one commonly samples other people's work using a moderately well-known process called "quoting". I'm mildly surprised she hasn't heard of it.

      In quoting, one marks the material quoted with either in-line or block quotes, and lists the source, usually at the bottom of the page in something called a "footnote" (;-))

      --dave

      [citation needed]

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    9. Re:No. by Rogue+Haggis+Landing · · Score: 5, Insightful

      That is a very good point. Sampling would be taking a short section of text and putting using in quotes, or otherwise acknowledging in your work that you are using something that someone else wrote.

      I don't think that there always has to to be a citation. I can think of a couple of situations in which it wouldn't be necessary, at least not morally (I won't touch legal issues).

      There's no need to credit a "sample" is brief and of something sufficiently well-known to the intended audience. This is extremely common in poetry and has been since antiquity. For example, if I begin my poem about a romance between two pine borer beetles with the line "Two roads diverged in a yellow wood", I don't need to mention Robert Frost because everyone likely to read it sees what I'm doing. Obviously the line between obvious and not-obvious is a fuzzy one and depends on the audience, but it's a good general guideline.

      I also think that a work that is very obviously built of "samples" needn't expressly say what is what. I'm thinking here of The Adventures of Mao on the Long March by Frederic Tuten, which consists in part of passages lifted directly from a wide variety of sources (it's the first place I'd ever seen Nathaniel Hawthorne on the art of sculpture used to discuss Mao). I don't remember if Tuten credits his "samples" or not, so it might be a bad example, but in a work like that, which is clearly and expressly made up in large part of words not originally written by the author, part of the game is in trying to figure out who originally wrote what, and what part is pastiche or parody instead of quotation.

      The key is that in neither of the above cases is the author trying to pass of someone else's work as his own. Hegemann pretty clearly was, and now is just making stuff up to try and get away with it.

  2. No. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

     

  3. Whee by mewsenews · · Score: 4, Funny

    Hello, kdawson.

    Have we entered a new era where plagiarism is not just tolerated, but seen as normal?

    No.

    Is this the ultimate in cynicism, or is it simply a brash attempt to get away with something now that she's been caught?

    Who cares?

    Is her claim to legitimacy compromised by the fact that she only admitted it after it was discovered by someone else?

    Yes.

    And finally, if 'sampling' is not acceptable in literature, is this reason to rethink the legitimacy of musical sampling?

    No.

    I might read the article next time.

  4. Childish by robmarms · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Artists who sample should always give the original artist credit... This is a childish attempt to explain, or rather justify, a wrong AFTER the fact.

  5. Plagiarism and copyright violation by JoshuaZ · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As someone who is only slightly older than she is. Yes, this is plagiarism. I'm TAing now and if a student handed in something like this we'd fail her. No question. They might even go in front of a disciplinary committee and certainly would if this were not the first time.

    This is also a gross abuse of copyright. I'm not talking about the evil "oh this has been copyrighted for 70s years" copyright, or even using copyright for non-commercial uses. This is classic copyright violation for her own commercial use. That's precisely what sensible copyrights prevent you from copying. And it isn't like these are short enough passages that there's even any real remixing but rather long sections and the like.

    The fact that she didn't acknowledge the sources makes the whole thing all the more egregious and shows that she really probably knew what she was doing was wrong. If not, she was so ignorant that it didn't occur to her that this might be a problem. Either way, it is deeply unimpressive.

  6. wait, what's the problem? by drDugan · · Score: 4, Funny

    Helene Hegemann's first book has been moving up the best-seller list in
    Germany and is a finalist for a major book prize. While originally this
    was notable because Hegemann is only 17 and this is her first book, and
    so earned praise as a prodigy, what's interesting now about this story
    is that she has been caught plagiarizing many passages in the book.
    Amazingly, she has not denied it, but instead claims there is nothing
    wrong with it. She claims that she is part of a new generation that has
    grown up with mixing and sampling in all media, including music and art,
    and this is legitimate in modern culture. Have we entered a new era where
    plagiarism is not just tolerated, but seen as normal? Is this the
    ultimate in cynicism, or is it simply a brash attempt to get away with
    something now that she's been caught? Is her claim to legitimacy
    compromised by the fact that she only admitted it after it was
    discovered by someone else? And finally, if 'sampling' is not acceptable
    in literature, is this reason to rethink the legitimacy of musical
    sampling?

  7. Some thoughts on this by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 4, Funny

    Have we entered a new era where plagiarism is not just tolerated, but seen as normal?

    It was the best of times, it was the worst of times; it was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness; it was the epoch of belief, it was the epoch of incredulity; it was the season of Light, it was the season of Darkness; it was the spring of hope, it was the winter of despair; we had everything before us, we had nothing before us; we were all going directly to Heaven, we were all going the other way.

  8. Happens in Research Too by iOdin · · Score: 4, Informative

    In terms of research literature, this happens too. In fact, it may be even worse if you think about it. I publish at least 3-4 papers each year in various different conferences and maybe a Journal or two. Go figure... even if it is my work, if I am not careful, then I may be liable for "self-plagiarism", from which they can retract publications and even my doctoral degree if the University deems it a serious offense. And we are not talking here about copy-paste to a whole paper section, even taking a sentence or two from one of your previous publications is debatable. I personally think this policy is ridiculous as it forces me to reword everything, even the obvious, no matter how much overlap there may be between the current paper and one I just sent in through the pipeline a month ago.

  9. Re:No, no. by hrimhari · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Because, as many others pointed and will point out, the plagiarist is taking credit on originality that belongs to somebody else.

    It's not bad just because it's been ruled to be bad. It's bad because plagiarism allows anyone to do a quick search in "obscure" literature, pick up some particularly interesting piece and resell it as being his own original work. It's great for the plagiarist, may be good to the public, but not so for the original creator.

    You can be informative and entertaining over other people's work, as long as you give them credit.

    You don't need to claim authorship to be entertaining.

    --
    http://dilbert.com/2010-12-13
  10. Re:The most interesting sentence in the article by oldhack · · Score: 5, Insightful

    She didn't fess up until she got busted, didn't she? And that's the only reason why the other book is being bought, ain't it?

    Was she saying she planned to get busted all along? The lying twit.

    --
    Fuck systemd. Fuck Redhat. Fuck Soylent, too. Wait, scratch the last one.
  11. Re:The most interesting sentence in the article by Tacvek · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The simple fact is that plagiarism does not exist. Only in the academic world does the concept exist. In the real world, plagiarism itself is perfectly legal, and at worst is a moral/ethical failing.

    Copyright infringement is what matters in the real world, and is orthogonal to plagarism. For example, it is not actually plagiarism to publish somebody else's work in its entiretly as the majority of a new work, as long as the original atuhor is credited. (One may still be failed in a class for doing so, as the assignment would quite likely fail the requirements, but that is a separate issue). But it very well may be copyright infringement to do so. On the other extreme, it is plagiarism to use somebody else's arguments, even if you completely rewrote them. However that would not be copyright infringement, since copyright only covers the expressions of ideas, not the ideas themselves.

    Perhaps definitions would help show this: Plagiarism is "using somebody else's ideas without acknowledging the source.
    Copyright infringement is "using somebody else's expression of an idea without permission and in excess of the fair use or equivalent exceptions".

    Now this book in questions sounds like it has plagiarism if the source of borrowed ideas was not mentioned on an acknowledgments page or similar location. It might also be copyright infringement, regardless of any crediting, since specific expressions of ideas were re-used without permission. Only the latter is actually a problem. Crediting the idea sources would be nice, but the law does not require it.

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  12. A mutt can be an excellent dog... by P0ltergeist333 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    A mutt can be an excellent dog even if it doesn't have any papers. Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. Neither art nor music should have any position about plagiarism. Plagiarism is for academics whose need for acknowledgment overwhelms their desire to further their own and society's knowledge, and those who care more about their bank account than producing something of value. While it seemed distasteful to me at first, Bowie, Mercury, and Van Halen were all exposed to new audiences when they were sampled, and I truly believe they were better off for being sampled. Jazz, Blues, and Rock and Roll would not exist without constant borrowing and even stealing. The best music in the world was created when everyone was stealing from everyone else in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. Would Hendrix have been as big if he hadn't covered a folk song, All Along the Watchtower? Would Zeppelin, the Stones, or Clapton have been so big without such obviously stolen blues songs and riffs? Did Dylan suffer from Jimi's cover? No, his fan base grew. Did all the Blues musicians suffer? No, in fact many were likely saved from obscurity, for at the time no 'decent' white folk would listen to such music. I think it axiomatic that the more selfish you are, the more yourself and the world suffers. The more generous you are, the more yourself and the world benefits.

    --
    One of these days I'm going to cut you into little pieces. - PF
    1. Re:A mutt can be an excellent dog... by Kell+Bengal · · Score: 4, Funny

      Even a cursory glance at how science works disproves your case. To start with, universities pay the bulk of academics' salaries. These are supplemented by grants from private bodies and government bodies to support work that they feel is valuable. Further more, many hoops must be navigated in order to see a shred of government money.

      Finally, sadly you can't get that oh-so-valuable dribble without worthwhile lab time to test which bits are non-valuable dribble. A lot of the drool produced by scientists is actually quite worthless and flawed. The process is as follows:

      Laboratories are highly-tuned apparatuses set up to extract the valuable drool milked from professors by their students. At weekly meetings, the students collect the drool on 'plots' and 'graphs' specially prepared for this purpose. In the lab, the students take the dribble and carefully distill the concentrated saliva to separate out the valuable fractions then bake them into what are called 'papers'.

      These papers, once prepared, are taken back to the professor to be 'proofed', wherein the professor will produce further dribble, but of a much higher and refined grade than first obtained. This process is known as 'editing' and is a common technique used to refine otherwise coarse secretions across many industries. Once infused with the higher grade of slime, these papers are sent to a panel of judges to be assessed and certified. Only the very finest dribble is passed to be presented at fairs and meetings where these students show their prize professors and hawk the papers.

      The very best papers may eventually be bought by investors who will take them and wring the saliva out of it and eventually incorporate it into any number of products. These include pharmacuticals, industrial lubricants, robots, batteries and computers. The uses of academic slime are truly limitless!

      Over time, researchers exposed to the highest grade drool in the course of their work may begin to produce the dribbles themselves. When they are recognised as lucrative dribble producers, they will be put out to pasture themselves so that their valuable effusions may be harnessed. This is called 'tenure'.

      And that's how science is done.

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