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New Bounds On the Higgs Boson Mass
As the LHC continues to run at half power for the next year+, the US-based Tevatron continues to crank out results. Reader hweimer writes "Three new papers in Physical Review Letters present the latest results for the Higgs boson mass coming from Fermilab's Tevatron. The new data mandates that the Higgs boson mass within the standard model lies between 115 and 150 GeV." A year back we discussed the Tevatron's previous shrinking of the search space for the Higgs "God particle."
From Wikipedia, 1 GeV/c^2 = 1.783 × 1027 kg . I wish summary articles were written so that most people could understand the terms used.
I'd say your place lies between first and eighth...
The more I hear about Tevatron's new discoveries - and the slowing progress of the LHC; the more I think Fermilab had something to do with LHCs 'demise'
More power Egor, more power!!! Yes, Yeesssss. ****maniacal laughter***
Life is not for the lazy.
That's beyond his cranial capacity.
Science advances one funeral at a time- Max Planck
I'm sure if the US cuts the funding, those scientists will get job offers elsewhere, and the United States will be well on the way to becoming a main provider of cheap labor for Mexico and Canada.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
LOL!
Dear Fermilab's Tevatron,
Thank you for announcing you got there first, and laughing in my face. You big jerk.
Sincerely,
LHC
These are bounds for the mass of the Higgs boson assuming it exists. If it doesn't exist, this data is meaningless. What will presumably eventually happen is that we'll narrow the mass down to a very tiny bound (if it exists) which would be strong evidence for its existence. Or we might detect the Higgs boson using some other methods and higher energies, such as those at the LHC. Alternatively, if the Higgs boson doesn't exist then we may end up narrowing the upper and lower bounds until they cross each other. In that case the Standard Model will be wrong and we'll have an interesting day.
So much for Europe being the new frontier for science.
Oh well, I suppose we can always turn the LHC into an expensive underground parking for the Genevans...
500 park jobs per day at a cheap 10dollars an hour... with luck we'll have our money back somewhere around the year 7010...
wasteful science at it's worst. trying to detect something we can't see, 99.999% (at least) of the worlds population wouldn't care if it was found and finding it would have zero impact on the worlds population. the world of physics and physicists needs to take a good long hard look at itself... and try and work out what it's going to do when the funding runs out... next year
I'm sure nobody technically gives a fuck about electromagnetic waves either, until we made radios and wireless and microwaves and cell phones
I'm sure nobody technically gives a fuck about electrons either, until we made TVs and computer monitors (and electricity itself)
I'm sure nobody technically gives a fuck about photons either, until we made lasers and optical fibers to be the backbone of the Internet
They're literally trying to understand what creates mass. If you don't think anything useful or cool can come out of that, you seriously lack imagination. But since you're ACing I assume you're trolling and I just bought it.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I actually had to read your post 3 times, just to see if I could detect sarcasm. The gene pool called and it would like you to GTFO.
Guess What - Your perfect world doesn't exist. whilst 99% of the population may not care (I disagree with this statistic also, by the way) the discoveries made will be beneficial to the future populations of this planet.
You may not care about that; however you would not be on the internet, you would not have electric power, you would not have a motor vehicle, you would not have a large market full of goods from around the globe, you would actually have a pretty terrible life if it wasn't for early greek mathematicians Pythagoras, Euclid, Archimedes, to name a (very small) few.
You owe your current lifestyle to these men; and our future generations will owe their lifestyle to our mathematicians and physists - only if they get the funding they need, ney the funding the DESERVE.
I'm sure nobody technically gives a fuck about electrons either, until we made TVs and computer monitors
Seriously, what planet are you fucking on? You reckon (laughing to myself) that nobody gave a fuck about electrons until 'we made TVs' ?!?
and finding it would have zero impact on the worlds population
Do as you say, troll.
If you don't think computers are of any impact, then you should give yours away and get off the Internet. Both are technology that exists because of science which as you say is pointless.
I guess to a troll, that statement pretty much is true. One can be an asshole without the aid of any technology.
Seriously, what planet are you fucking on? You reckon (laughing to myself) that nobody gave a fuck about electrons until 'we made TVs' ?!?
Well that is what YOU said after all. Your post, and the one the GP replied to, are both signed the same name.
You gunna change your mind yet again when you reply to me?
A serious lack of imagination indeed. The research into the "wasteful science" will probably lead us to zero-pollution energy on a scale we can use. Ahh, but that is not worth pursuing. Now, if you want to get rid of wasteful science, I would strongly consider delaying any manned attempts at Mars for the next 50 years at least. That is all a bunch of ego-driven nonsense.
but the tevatron does more at ten
You misspelled "education."
Cory Doctorow talking about cloud computing makes as much sense as George W Bush talking about electrical engineering.
As opposed to wasting trillions of dollars to destabilize the middle east? Yeah, that's a useful expenditure of tax payer dollars. Perhaps next year we can pay to remove all references to electrons from the chemistry text books while we're at it.
Seriously, the applications for a lot of this stuff doesn't become apparent until after it's been discovered, I'm not sure what people thought they'd be able to do with Maxwell's equations, but I doubt very much that they thought we'd get super colliders and computers out of it.
Seriously, what planet are you fucking on? You reckon (laughing to myself) that nobody gave a fuck about electrons until 'we made TVs' ?!?
He's posting on slashdot. Chances are, he's not fucking on *any* planet.
You reckon (laughing to myself) that nobody gave a fuck about electrons until 'we made TVs' ?!?
Well to be quite specific I was thinking of electron beams like CRTs, things that'd require you to actually know something about electrons. You can do tons with say chemistry, but you don't really need to know about electrons to mix various compounds. Including making a battery and thus electricity, which predates the discovery of the electron.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
The only thing I think will be useful to come out of this is the coincidental visit of Lexx (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LVshOOG2hcc)
Such idealism. Problem is, the young don't vote as much. They are also outnumbered by older people anyway. I don't see the democracies that support the collider dropping funding anytime soon. You'll grow up.
I'm not sure what people thought they'd be able to do with Maxwell's equations, but I doubt very much that they thought we'd get super colliders and computers out of it.
I know Heavyside thought he could simplify them, and thus set back N-dimensional physics by 100+ years...
Or is it massive enough that it must purchase two seats?
http://lkml.org/lkml/2005/8/20/95
From the Congressional Joint Committee on Atomic Energy, April 17, 1969, regarding the justification for funding the then-unbuilt Fermilab:
Senator John Pastore: Is there anything connected with the hopes of this accelerator that in any way involves the security of the country?
Robert Wilson: No sir, I don't believe so.
Pastore: Nothing at all?
Wilson: Nothing at all.
Pastore: It has no value in that respect?
Wilson: It has only to do with the respect with which we regard one another, the dignity of men, our love of culture. It has to do with: Are we good painters, good sculptors, great poets? I mean all the things we really venerate in our country and are patriotic about. It has nothing to do directly with defending our country except to make it worth defending.
Um, electromagnetic waves are photons.
Well said. Fundamental knowledge about the most basic building blocks of reality are useless and a waste of money. That money should have gone to the banking or auto sector.
The new data mandates that the Higgs boson mass within the standard model lies between 115 and 150 GeV."
No, it doesn't. Look at this graph. At a "3 sigma" level (and don't believe any new science that is not at the 3 sigma level or better), the mass of the Higgs (assuming it exists) is roughly between 115 and 225 GeV. To put it another way, a mass greater than the Tevatron exclusion zone at ~160 GeV is by no means ruled out.
How long will it take to realize that Aether theory had a lot of things right? I don't know much about anything, but I do have a feeling when things feel right. Up until Mr. Einstein, aether was it. The more I see the less I like, and I really wonder how long it will take before science realizes that we are, in fact, in the soup.
These Colliders will make some nice wind turbines once they are reprocessed. What goes around comes around.
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I would imagine this is how my family and friends feel when I start speaking computer gibberish. I'd consider myself relatively competent to understand basic principles like gravity, mass, weight, etc, but can someone dumb this down?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_Model
I know that's probably a hopeless request without some sort of basis in this field, but can someone give the "particle physics for dummies" equivalent here?
I get the impression this is a hunt for some as yet unknown particle?
Troll? Seriously? It was a joke -- if you laughed then mod the guy funny, if not then leave him alone.
Space game using normal deck of cards: http://BattleCards.org
Determining the mass is fine, I guess, but what about size - is it bigger than a breadbox?
#DeleteChrome
radioshack
Anyone else read it that way?
The banking sector aren't that dissimilar from quantum physicists ... they deal with gigantic magnitudes of imaginary "wealth" that ceases to exists as soon as someone actually scrutinizes the figures and collapses the waveform, causing it all to disappear.
Still at least we've managed to capture the Madoff Particle.
What?
I think you meant Watt's ?
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Funny? I'd mod this insightful
115 GeV? Sounds like Fermilab is on half power too. When Europe gets there at full power, it will surely be 240 GeV. Ever heard of 'mains hum'?
Won't happen.
When it comes down to it, we've made (and continue to make) the wisest investment of all - weapons.
I doubt any physicist would refer to the Higgs boson as "God particle" and that's obviously not the case in TFA. So why kdawson is feeding this idiotic meme ?
Next time we speak about serious science are we going to refer the research subject's as "pixie dust" or "Satan ichor" ?
http://www.transparency.org
Whenever anyone questions the value of a particular line of scientific enquiry I remind that we had lasers sat around in research labs for a long time before anyone thought of anything useful to do with them. Now the average person has a few at home, and they form part of the backbone of our entire communications network.
Just because we can't think of anything practical to do with it now doesn't mean it won't be life-changing at some point in the future.
It's official. Most of you are morons.
Yeah, that's working out really well for Africa and the middle east so far! Sure will be a lot of fun if your economy completely tanks and you have all those guns lying around..
which is totally what she said
No, no, no! That money should be going to GOD! He's a bit strapped for cash and forgot how to make more after his narcotics binge in the dark ages.
which is totally what she said
The banking sector aren't that dissimilar from quantum physicists ... they deal with gigantic magnitudes of imaginary "wealth" that ceases to exists as soon as someone actually scrutinizes the figures and collapses the waveform, causing it all to disappear.
Still at least we've managed to capture the Madoff Particle.
Yay, thanks for that. Now I'm scared to check my bank account balance. So long as I don't look, the money might still be there...
Schrodinger's Savings and Loans anyone?
People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
Just released yesterday I think. Some cool new stuff discovered at the rhic at brookhaven national labs. http://www.bnl.gov/bnlweb/pubaf/pr/PR_display.asp?prID=1074 "“This research offers significant insight into the fundamental structure of matter and the early universe, highlighting the merits of long-term investment in large-scale, basic research programs at our national laboratories,” said Dr. William F. Brinkman, Director of the DOE Office of Science. “I commend the careful approach RHIC scientists have used to gather detailed evidence for their claim of creating a truly remarkable new form of matter.”"
Ha, you with you fancy selfsignifying education, but can you do *THIS*?
every single one of these colliders will be recycled and reprocessed into long term and far more useful gear like wind turbines
You are right in the first part of that statement, the colliders are being recycled. However I am not aware of any being turned into wind turbines.
I know someone on the D0 group at Fermi, and was talking about collider fate with him recently. He pointed out that many of the facilities that are now serving as synchrotons (or high-energy light sources, such as Cornell's CHESS) which make significant contributions to structural biology. Currently we have less than 10 synchrotrons in the US - and many more structural biologists - so increasing that total can help a lot.
However your assertion of "far more useful gear" is a statement of opinion. High energy physics creates a lot of jobs, and a lot of valuable research for the public good.
Damn_registrars has no butt-hole. Damn_registrars has no use for a butt-hole.
The scientists are searching through a parking lot for a car that may or may not be there. The parking lot is 100ft tall and they have searched the lowest 60 feet of it. If the car exists and conforms to their understanding of what a car is then it will be found by searching the next 40 feet. However, they have ladders and the equipment to keep climbing past the top floor of the parking lot. If they find the car floating 30ft above the top floor of the parking lot they will have to redifine what a car is. Yes that's right, you heard it here first; The Higgs Boson = flying cars. Let's make it happen people.
http://xkcd.com/702/
Well ...
... maybe not.
Most people use the word "particle" to mean a small solid object, and I think it is fair to say that quarks, gluons, and the Higgs can't meaningfully be categorised in this way. It is not surprising that early mathematical physicists often emphasised concentrating on the wave equations and not trying to assign physical meanings.
From scarped cliff or quarried stone she cries "A thousand types are gone, I care for nothing, no not one."
If you didn't know this, 26.43% of all statistics are made up on the spot... ;-)
Hello: Time for me to fight the LHC propaganda machine with my own efforts. The unified standard model doesn't need the Higgs mechanism. http://www.zazzle.com/the_stand_up_physicist_said_tshirt-235942932145293980
Working on new views of old physics at http://VisualPhysics.org
Yes, but that insight didn't help much until we used it to refine how we used light.
"The light that you see all around you all the time and that had been around since the dawn of time is made up of Photons!!!" == boring (who gives a fuck)
"I just used quantum mechanical photon theory stuff to come up with this coherent light source." == new, but still boring (who give a fuck)
"That coherent light source, the laser, can be used for rapid data communication and has hundred of everyday applications." == very useful indeed. (Don't take away my fiber optic connectio or my DVD/BluRay or I WILL KILL YOU!!!!11!!!!)
I'm sure if the US cuts the funding, those scientists will get job offers elsewhere, and the United States will be well on the way to becoming a main provider of cheap labor for Mexico and Canada.
But the same could be said of any science that's no longer fruitful. Yet the US continues to be the world leader.
Would you spend a billion dollars trying to measure another decimal place of the Stefan–Boltzmann constant? Probably not. However, Tevatron spent well over a decade, and hundreds of millions of dollars, trying to get extra decimal places on the top quark mass.
This number is basically useless, but they didn't have anything else to do. That's because HEP, at least the Standard Model, is mined out. It's a dead science. All that's been done since the 1980s is bookkeeping. LHC doesn't change that, unless it finds something new and interesting. The jury's out on how likely that is. So the justification, from the start, has been to find the Higgs. And if we do, so what? We already agree that we know what it is, what it does, and about how massive it is. Yet if LHC detects it, the HEP world will circle its wagons, grant some nobels, and talk about what a great job they're doing.
Of course we know that it's wrong. None of our current theories can *really* account for most of the interesting things we see in our telescopes (contrary to protestations on Ars) so even if we find something like the photino we're still not any closer to understanding the real universe. Dark Energy? Good luck.
I think there's a lot more physics, both theoretical and practical, in B-E's than LHC. There's still a lot of basic quantum theory to do while everyone got distracted by the big budgets an accelerator commands.
Maury
They're literally trying to understand what creates mass
No no no, they've already figured that out. Decades ago. You even know the name, "Higgs". We also roughly know the mass. There's very little we don't claim to know, and discovering that doesn't teach us anything.
The only success we should hope for at LHC is that they *don't* find the Higgs. Then the HEP world will have to face the fact that everyone knows but won't publicly admit, that the SM is almost certainly incomplete. But since we have no idea what would replace it, few are willing to come out and say so. Because then wouldn't be able to get the billions to build these devices, and people might have to get real jobs.
Maury
In fact, the definition of a field is something that assigns a value to every point in space. The EM field associated with a charged particle (which could be moving) assigns E and B vectors to every point in space, for example. You are probably thinking in terms of relativity, which involves the concepts of matter causing space-time to be curved. The trouble is that relativity needs to be reconciled with quantum mechanics - it doesn't give you any insight as to WHY there is gravity. The way to do that is by figuring out what causes gravitational fields, and the way to do that is to find the particle - Higgs - that mediates the field (in the same way that photons mediate the EM field). Space itself, though, isn't a field.
Seriously, the applications for a lot of this stuff doesn't become apparent until after it's been discovered, I'm not sure what people thought they'd be able to do with Maxwell's equations, but I doubt very much that they thought we'd get super colliders and computers out of it.
You just told the average idiot that the science they think is useless led to the invention of a giant money-wasting useless science machine, and a toy.
Here is the list of worthwhile results of science to the average moron:
Fire, as used in cooking
Paper, ink
Firearms
Automobiles
Cameras
Telephones
Computers (including gaming consoles), as used for facebooking, twittering, porn, gaming
Cell phones, particularly iPhones and Blackberries
Try to include some of these technologies into your justifications for scientific endeavors that don't yield immediate, tangible results. Be sure to mention some of them specifically, for example they won't understand integrated circuit -> microprocessor -> small computers -> iPhone.
So, to fix your statement for you:
Seriously, the applications for a lot of this stuff doesn't become apparent until after it's been discovered, I'm not sure what people thought they'd be able to do with Maxwell's equations, but I doubt very much that they thought we'd get (redacted) and Xbox360s, facebook, twitter, internet porn and iPhones out of it.
"When information is power, privacy is freedom" - Jah-Wren Ryel
1) You can't get to absolute zero - to get something that cold would require you to chill it with something even colder, which is impossible by definition.
2) Even if you could get to absolute zero, all molecular motion doesn't stop - the particles still have what's called "zero-point" energy, which means they would still be moving a little. For them to be completely stopped would violate the uncertainty principle: you'd know their position and momentum exactly.
3) Obviously, just because things stop moving doesn't mean their mass disappears. Does your car become massless when you put it in your garage? For a photon, the concept of "rest mass" is pretty much purely a mathematical idea - they can't ever stop moving, so their rest mass is never directly in evidence.
... that the overall particle physics community is not real enthusiastic about the "God particle" terminology. There's nothing particularly "god-like" about it.