Banks Accept Dubai Assassins' Stolen IDs

schliz writes "Public scrutiny did more harm than good last week, after Australian police and the media released details of three stolen passports allegedly used in the assasination of a senior Hamas member in Dubai. As if having their identities stolen for an assassination wasn't enough, it turns out the victims' passports had not been cancelled by the government, so the details that were published by the media in fact could be used to open fraudulent bank accounts."

Comments

I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[LostCluster]

It seems like every government in the world has something equal to our Social Security Number being used for national identification... and no way to scrub your permanent record of what they want to record about you, or even an easy way toget your record cleaned if somebody should take your identity and uses it. Lifelock is basically selling insurance that if your ID is stolen, they'll do the legwork up to $1 Million in filing paperwork and making calls on your behalf to get things back to normal.

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people because for them their war against Hamas justifies anything... they've been doing War on Terror since day one of their existence. The least these people should be able to expect is that their government would cancel their stolen passports... but apparently that's too much to ask.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Nobody wants, nobody likes,

kikes, kikes, kikes.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Cougar_]

Their passports have not been stolen, they still have the originals in their possession. The passports used for the assassination were counterfeits.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[LostCluster]

That's "stolen" in the RIAA definition... illegal copying must be stopped!

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[deniable]

That's why the GP said ID in the first paragraph. They were counterfeit, but used valid data, hence they're as good as stolen. Oh wait, are you using a subtle piracy isn't theft argument?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[zappepcs]

Actually, the Jewish people have been at war with everyone from day one, in later years settling down a bit and narrowing it to a smaller group

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[nedlohs]

If it was my passport that was counterfeited and I happened to be visiting, say China, at the time I'd probably prefer the government not just cancel my passport out from under me.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[LukeWebber]

It's actually not that hard to get a new Australian passport issued, especially if you have as good a reason as these people. It's not even slightly analogous to the American SSN.
The big problem here is that the relevant authorities simply didn't think to cancel and re-issue before publishing the details to the world.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people because for them their war against Hamas justifies anything... they've been doing War on Terror.

Yeh they have. But before they were the ones at war with terrorists, they were the worst terrorists.

For a full list of their atrocities, funded by US jews, have a look at the UN report on jewish terrorism in Palestine 1945-48

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-terrorists-timeline-1945-1948.html.

And the fuckers try and come across holier than the terrorists. Israel is a terrorist nation of thieves.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[LostCluster]

But they're your government. They can send you a new one rather quickly.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always had the impression that intelligence agencies operate with the principle that the end justifies absolutely any means. After all, they break plenty of laws when they operate in foreign countries and don't seem to have any problem fucking up the lives of their own citizens either.

But I do wonder if there's any particular reason why the Mossad prefers Australian or New Zealand identies? Considering how many times they've been caught red-handed, there should be examples with identities from other countries than those two. We can exclude American identities since they would probably not work much better than Israeli and they might not want to annoy Europeans any more than they already do and they have had good relations with South Africa for a long, long time but shouldn't an identity from a South American country or Canada also work appearance-wise?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[whoever57]

It seems like every government in the world has something equal to our Social Security Number being used for national identification..

The problem is not the issuance of a government ID, the problem is that businesses are allowed to ask for it and use it as a form of ID.

I don't recall telling banks in the UK any government-issued ID numbers, but I haven't opened a bank account there recently.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

"they've been doing War on Terror since day one of their existence"

We've ALWAYS been at war with Terrasia.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[nedlohs]

"rather quickly" isn't going to cut it in a lot of cases.

Now visiting China might see me playing by a different set of rules, but I have *never* "registered" with an embassy/consulate or told my government where I was when I've been traveling overseas.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Opportunist]

It's ok if a government does it. Didn't you get the mem... oh, not cleared?

Never mind I said something.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Taco Cowboy]

But they're your government. They can send you a new one rather quickly.

Wanna bet?

Bureaucracy knows no bound, especially if your passport has been used by someone to assassinate a terrorist.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Opportunist]

If your government has an embassy in the country, you can simply go there and they will help you.

If your government does not have one, what the hell are you doing there?

And China is a bad example, I mean, don't tell me the only thing they don't counterfeit in China is passports.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your statement should read,

"Actually, people have been at war with everyone from day one, in later years settling down a bit and narrowing it to a smaller group"

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[tg123]

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people because for them their war against Hamas justifies anything...........UN report on jewish terrorism in Palestine 1945-48

http://www.jewwatch.com/jew-terrorists-timeline-1945-1948.html.

And the fuckers try and come across holier than the terrorists. Israel is a terrorist nation of thieves.

Forgetting about the sense of anti-Zonist hated in your previous post.

Truth be told Israel is a state sponsor of terror and it was founded on terrorism.

The same can be said of the Palestinians.

What does not get mentioned is each sides, Palestinian and Israeli, views are valid and neither peoples are willing to compromise.

With compromise will come peace.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[WaXHeLL]

Their passports have not been stolen, they still have the originals in their possession. The passports used for the assassination were counterfeits.

Actually, some of the involved passports were fraudulently obtained from their respective governments.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Omnifarious]

Yes, I would agree with you. The passports haven't been stolen, just copied. Copying isn't theft even in this situation in which I think the copying was unequivocally wrong. OTOH, I would still argue that their identity has been stolen.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[vikstar]

War of Terror

There, fixed it for you.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[nedlohs]

How is china a bad example?

I imagine the consequences of trying use an invalid Australian passport in China would be worse than doing so in New Zealand. It should all turn out fine, they contact the Australian officials who explain the situation - but things don't always work as they should.

The problem isn't getting a new passport, that's simple. The problem is not knowing you need to and trying to use a passport that comes up on the canceled list (hopefully without any further explanation like, "used in spying/assassinations/terrorism") to get past the guys with machine guns who are more than happy to interview you while they slowly contact your consulate.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Low Ranked Craig]

It is more likely that the peace will come from the Jews exterminating the Palestinians, or Iran exterminating both; the Jews on purpose and the Palestinians as collateral damage.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[bertoelcon]

Bureaucracy knows no bound, especially if your passport has been used by someone to assassinate a terrorist.

But they assassinated a "terrorist", not one of the "good guys".

That has to mean something, right?

Right?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Miseph]

Given the state Palestinian foreign relations prior to the creation of Israel... I'd not classify Iran exterminating them as "accidental".

They were pretty much considered to be a bunch of degenerate screw-ups barely worthy of using for target practice.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[vcgodinich]

Truth be told Israel is a state sponsor of terror and it was founded on terrorism.

-Might- want to check how Israel was founded and by whom.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[BrokenHalo]

But I do wonder if there's any particular reason why the Mossad prefers Australian or New Zealand identies?

I understood that 6 of the passports used in this operation were British. Mossad seems to prefer using identies of foreign nationals living within Israel.

The thing that puzzles me about this whole debacle is that Mossad has something of a reputation for ruthless, surgical precision in its operations. This operation to bump off a single Hamas leader (with Dubai police claiming some 25 people involved) just seems uncharacteristically ham-fisted and clumsy. In fact, now I come to think of it, much more like the CIA... ;-)

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

Well, the Palestinians didn't wipe out Jewish villages, conquered neighboring countries territory, maintain a racist state, try to fabricate a Jewish past in Palestine or fully annex it while pretending to be interested in a peace treaty. And they don't have AIPAC.

The only way Israeli views are valid is considering the fact that to set things straight, a lot of people would have to be moved in/out of the Israeli territory, not to mention the (internationally illegal) settlements.

The fact is that the Israelis are not interested in peace. They want the full of Palestine and that's it. The hold they have on the U.S. Congress and Senate through lobbying organizations like AIPAC and the Counsel of Presidents grants them carte blanche to do whatever they want. It's kinda funny that the world's most powerful superpower is little more than a sock puppet of a little east mediterranean state in what concerns it's foreign policy on the Middle East...

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Rakshasa Taisab]

This is _NOT_ a problem with social security numbers (or national identification numbers). What this is about is the lack of strict regulation on their use and proper oversight.

If you can open a bank account just by having the information that is on a passport the there's a failure in procedure here, not an intrinsic security risk with national identification numbers. That is to say; any procedure that uses information found on a passport to authenticate that you are who you claim to be are relying on security through obscurity.

The online banks that were tested in the article failed and I'm surprised they haven't been slapped silly by government regulators for lax security. (They would be in norway, which has had NIN since 1960's)

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[verbation]

Who said it was Israel? And the article was about Australian accounts. But I'm not going to deny a man his g0d-given Israel-bashing right. Proceed.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[tg123]

Truth be told Israel is a state sponsor of terror and it was founded on terrorism.

-Might- want to check how Israel was founded and by whom.

My understanding of the foundation of Israel was that is was begun by the Zionist movement who wanted to return to the homeland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zionism

the State of Israel was proclaimed by
Ben-Gurion on the 14th May 1948 the day the British mandate expired.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Independence_(Israel)

The British left due to a Jewish terror campaign also known as the Jewish Revolt.

The Arabs/Palestinians had there own terror campaign as well it's just the Jewish were better at it.

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/defense.html

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[rhook]

Lifelock is basically selling insurance that if your ID is stolen, they'll do the legwork up to $1 Million in filing paperwork and making calls on your behalf to get things back to normal.

Lifelock is a scam, they charge you money to do what costs nothing. What is that you ask? All they do is put a fraud alert on your file at the three major credit agencies. You can do this yourself over the phone in 5 minutes. Once this is on file you are contacted anytime someone tries to open a new line of credit in your name.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[shabble]

I don't recall telling banks in the UK any government-issued ID numbers, but I haven't opened a bank account there recently.

Money laundering requirements in the UK generally take the form of 2 or more pieces of documentation that prove both who you are, and where you live. (Drivers licence or passport for who you are, tax notices, benefits letters, utility bills for address.) Used in conjunction with data held by Experian/Equifax (which includes electoral information as backup for where you live.)

The closest you'll get to explicitly handing over a government issued ID number to a bank is if you open an ISA (Individual Savings Account - limited tax free savings,) and they ask you for your National Insurance number.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Darkman, Walkin Dude]

It's kinda funny that the world's most powerful superpower is little more than a sock puppet of a little east mediterranean state in what concerns it's foreign policy on the Middle East...

Don't kid yourself. Its established US policy to create and support "friendly states" near where US interests lie. This is one of the main reasons why Japan was rebuilt and heavily funded by the US in the far east. Its not even completely connected to oil resources I would say, but part of an ideological and strategic conflict. When the oil dries up or becomes irrelevant (possibly within the next couple of decades), most of the middle east is going to be a lot poorer than it is today, and hence a whole lot angrier. Better that they are targeting Israel than the US, in the eyes of policymakers, so the bigger a boogeyman it is the better.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[umghhh]

I just wonder about few things:

• since when do we trust Dubai's security/police/judiciary to deliver results that actually show the reality? Strangely they were not capable of catching a known terrorist before he got victimized by somebody - so how efficient are they really and how much can we trust them
• is there any evidence that his was done by mossad? Even if we trust Dubai police (which I personally do not but I do not have to either - not living there etc) can they with all their professionalism actually find out who did it?
• why is this a problem if a known terrorist gets killed and it is not a problem when he can travel as he pleases (he was obviously well known in Dubai)?

What really annoys me with this thing is that media and sad majority of people just jump to the conclusions without even passing the information trough their brains. Every now and then certain thing happens and for reasons that are not comprehensible for a thinking person whole world gets bananas - last time it was I think with Georgia that was 'attacked' by Russia. This just shows that one cannot trust any information provided.

BTW: not all of the passports were stolen or counterfeited - at least ones issued by German authorities were genuine albeit the actual persons whose identities were used knew nothing about these documents (or so they say).

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[AHuxley]

Small harmless countries nobody cares/knows much about with diplomatic missions that are friendly to all.
Their passports are loaded with anti fraud devices and should just be easy to move around with.
A post ww2 multicultural population helps too.
Fraud with in Australia/NZ is not too hard.
A South American country might call its embassy staff and just shrug if caught - Australia/NZ would protest for longer and harder allowing deals to be done to free spies if caught.
Canada is too close to the USA via DHS and politics, does not allow for such an easy transit.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[TapeCutter]

Israel labels 95% of all Lebonese as terrorists. From what I have read all the passports were stolen from people living in Israel, the Israeli government has their details (which were modified). Mossad are not interested in "finding out" who did it. Australia, the UK, France, Germany, and Ireland are all supporters of Israel, what benifit do they gain from pointing the finger at Israel?

With the Georgian thing you had Putin strenuosly and IMHO convincingly denying the claim (maybe not in the US media), Israel are simply ignoring this in the hope it will go away.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[olderchurch]

Strangely they were not capable of catching a known terrorist before he got victimized by somebody
Why should the Dubai police arrest this man?
why is this a problem if a known terrorist gets killed and it is not a problem when he can travel as he pleases (he was obviously well known in Dubai)?
Again, why should the Dubai police arrest this man?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[TapeCutter]

The US was initially against the creation of Isreal, it's preference was to create a UN protectorate when the British were due to withdraw. Israel unilaterally decared itself a state the day the British withdrew leading to the 1948 Arab-Israeli war. The US became a strong supporter during the cold war because it saw Israel as a useful pawn in pretty much the same way it saw Saddam as a useful pawn against Iran.

The whole sorry mess of the middle east is about strategic control of the Persian Gulf during (and after) the cold war. Control of the Persian Gulf also grants control of much of the oil supply from the Middle East as opposed to the more difficult task of controling the actual oil fields.

The same thing is at play around the (land locked) Caspian sea because the US and Russia both need to find a friendly path for their pipelines.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[zill]

What's the point of getting a new passport? We're talking about identity here. These Innocent people will have their names associated with terrorism forever unless they change their names. Getting a new passport won't change that fact.

The No Fly List does not include passport numbers or any other government issued ID number for the obvious reason that any number or ID issued by the government can be re-issued (even the SSN). For example I had my passport stolen before and it only took $100 to get it replaced. I could have easily lied about the theft and ended up with two passports that have different passport numbers.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[TapeCutter]

"It seems like every government in the world has something equal to our Social Security Number being used for national identification.

In Australia the Tax File Number (TFN) is similar to the US SSN. However your TFN is used for tax purposes only, not as a catch all national ID. In no way is it connected to passports, drivers licenses, medicare card, ect. In fact it's illeagal to ask for it except for very specific uses.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Only if the ends justify the means. Think about this one carefully.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

'round these parts, being known as someone that assassinated some terrorist would be a great way to get free drinks and laid. I'd advise against using your CC to pay for the taxi though.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously there is not nor there will ever be an easy way to scrub your permanent records. That would only be needed if the system in place would somehow fail and that will never happen. Ever. And if anyone claims otherwise then they are imagining things and nasty liars. ...That would be what the people responsible for that system will tell you.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

"The British left due to a Jewish terror campaign also known as the Jewish Revolt."

That's WHAT THE JEWS SAY. In fact, most colonies were granted independence after WWII, about the same time frame.
What is the Jewish mandate if not a British colony? it is WWI booty from the Turkish empire, the division of the spoils (with France for example) that drew the political lines of the middle east.

The Jews had changed the ethnic composition of the country, and created the institutions that meant they have a de-facto state.
The Brits basically left Jews & Arabs to fight in a civil war. Better organized Jews had the upper hand.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

What? No mention of zionist terrorist organizations such as Hagana or Irgun? How convenient.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because randomly going trough the world killing $undesirable_person it's considered a normal and a pure humanitarian act of godwill.

Don't say nothing when they get bored and start going around the world chasing / killing any looser anti Israel guy who post in some Internet forum, if that not happening already and the Israeli controlled mass media is not telling shit about it.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[HateBreeder]

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people because for them their war against Hamas justifies anything...

Ahh... without a single shred of evidence, you would still judge and convict Israel.

Lefties and their selective morality...

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Attila Dimedici]

Israel labels 95% of all Lebonese as terrorists. From what I have read all the passports were stolen from people living in Israel, the Israeli government has their details (which were modified). Mossad are not interested in "finding out" who did it. Australia, the UK, France, Germany, and Ireland are all supporters of Israel, what benifit do they gain from pointing the finger at Israel?

From what I have read only 3 of the 11 were living in Israel. At least two were lving in their home countries at the time of the assasination (they were interviewed by the press at a location in their home country, which was listed in the article about the interview as their home). The biggest reason to think that this wasn't a Mossad assasination is the number of people in the assasination team. Eleven seems like a rather large group for an assasination of the sort that the details so far made public indicates this was.
If Mossad did not do this, what interest do they have in identifying the people or organization that did?
The only one of those countries that I do not know is not a supporter of Israel is Australia. France and Germany lean toward the Arab side of the conflict. The UK and Ireland are (from Israel's perspective) at best neutral.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Attila Dimedici]

Given the state Palestinian foreign relations prior to the creation of Israel...

What do you base this on? Before the creation of Israel, there were no "Palestinian foreign relations" to note the state of. Before WWI, Palestine was part of the Ottoman Empire (and not clearly defined geographically). After WWI it was part of the British mandate until 1948. It was during the British mandate that the idea of an Arab Palestine as a separate entity (as opposed to being part of some other Arab nation) first appeared.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because terrorism is illegal everywhere and they want to arrest a terrorist?

Oh wait, they don't. And that's why you can't trust the Dubai police.

However, to be fair, from what I read this murder happened a few months before all this publicity and Dubai didn't care. They've only started this inquest when Hamas contacted them and starting applying the "you're not Muslim enough" pressure.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[stdarg]

It means that Dubai is not willing to arrest known terrorists but is willing to go to great lengths to go after unknown assassins.

Presumably when they find the real identity of these assassins, Dubai will not expect any other country to help arrest them.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[rtb61]

Now you have the reason why those countries are so upset. Use of fake passports by governments to commit crimes places holders of valid passports from those countries whose passports have been counterfeited at risk. Were the countries whose passports were counterfeited, actually participating in those crimes and, should any person carrying that countries passports now be suspect.

Just look at the way the US treated people who held passports from suspect countries, people who were profiled based upon their countries reputation. Those countries whose passports were counterfeited now have to pay the full cost of investigations to substantiate there non-involvement in the crime, preferably by capturing and prosecuting the people who used the fake passports as this is the only means by which they can prove there were not involved in criminal activities in another country.

So how will these cost be passed back to the Israeli government (likely hundreds of thousands of dollars) will the Israeli government hand over the criminals who forged the documents and, stole citizens identities, now putting them at risk.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[stdarg]

Well, the Palestinians didn't wipe out Jewish villages

You sure about that? Maybe not a whole village at a time but the Palestinians and other Arabs definitely were trying to cleanse "their" land.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Hebron_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1929_Safed_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1936%E2%80%931939_Arab_revolt_in_Palestine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1938_Tiberias_massacre

conquered neighboring countries territory

Fair enough, Palestinians have never been organized or powerful enough to actually *accomplish* that but if you read anything about stuff like Hamas you see they definitely want to conquer Israel. Certainly Palestinian allies have tried to conquer Israel.

maintain a racist state

Palestine is very racist, not sure what you mean by this.

try to fabricate a Jewish past in Palestine

No, they actually do try to fabricate that past. They make up all kinds of events like the extermination of Palestinian villages (as you mentioned).

fully annex it while pretending to be interested in a peace treaty

Palestine always pretends to be interested in a peace treaty -- while they resupply and rearm their militants and terrorists.

The fact is that the Israelis are not interested in peace. They want the full of Palestine and that's it.

How do you know that? From another perspective it's really obvious that Palestinians aren't interested in peace. In that view, Israel may want peace but it's not practical and the best alternative really is full control of Palestine. Right now Palestine is a haven for terrorists and a rallying cry for terrorists across the Muslim world. How is that situation helping anyone?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

try to fabricate a Jewish past in Palestine

Fabricate a Jewish past? Let's see what THE KORAN has to say about the Jewish past:

Moses is quoted as telling the Jews to "enter into the Holy Land which Allah has assigned to you".

The Palestinians deny that there ever was a Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But Sura 17:7 records the destruction of the First Temple by Babylon and the Second Temple by Rome, and Mohammed never contests the Bible's claim that the Temples were in Jerusalem.

Sura 17:104 says that 'And we said to the Children of Israel afterwards, "Go live into this land. When the final prophecy comes to pass, we will summon you all in one group."'

Are you denying the word of the Koran? Prepare to be chased to the ends of the earth by millions of frothing islam-o-nuts...

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Because they read your credit card info over the CB radio in the clear when anyone could be listening in, right?

No different than the central US, really.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ja]

"Inventing a Jewish past", here in the sense that most modern Jews have no relation whatsoever to the Israelite Jews of ancient Palestine - whom as we all know were Christened around the year 300 ...

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[d3matt]

From what I understand, the US has very little interest in the Caspian Sea. It's the EU that gets its oil from that region.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

Yeah well I used to think that too. But that's not what's happening really.

The Jewish community learned and excelled at playing the lobbying game. I suggest you pay a visit to the AIPAC site. You'll see the face of many familiar politicians there. According to these guys AIPAC can and will get the signatures of almost all congress representatives and senators on a piece of paper in 24 hours. On several occasions in the Clinton and Bush administrations, they both received letters signed by the large majority of both Houses against, for example, the arms sell to Saudi Arabia or a loosening up on Iran's sanctions. They will actively support candidates that are pro-Israel and they will support rivals of candidates that are critics of Israel. All this is done in a mostly legal way - like any other lobby group in Washington. But ask around and dig a little bit and you will soon realize that these guys and the mother of all lobbies.

The point is that the lobby's grip is so powerful that you can find more critics of Israel in Israel - and there are many - than in the US. Any American candidate that doesn't actively support Israel is starting way back in the race for funds than an AIPAC-supported Israel supporting candidate. This doesn't mean that this influence extends itself to the votes. From my understanding and the book linked above, Americans are not the staunch unconditional supporters of Israel that the media wants people to believe. Many Americans are in favor of cutting aid to Israel or at least use that leverage to press Israel into a peace process. But the lobby acts before the elections so, basically, they got the US by the balls. It's political suicide to not be an Israel supporter...

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

Now you have the reason why those countries are so upset. Use of fake passports by governments to commit crimes places holders of valid passports from those countries whose passports have been counterfeited at risk. Were the countries whose passports were counterfeited, actually participating in those crimes and, should any person carrying that countries passports now be suspect.

Oh, come on. Every intelligence service in the world has their agents use fake passports at one time or another. That everyone is jumping on Israel's case for doing so is nothing but hypocrisy at best, anti-semitism at worst.

So what that the Mossad, if the accusations aginst the are true, killed a terrorist? Those guys do nothing but kill innocent civilians. Terrorists spread terror, by definition. At least the Mossad targeted a bad guy and took him out without harming anyone else. The guy taken out certainly wasn't known for that. He was known for either directly, or indirectly, killing innocents, or he wouldn't have been a "known terrorist" or belonged to a terrorist organization.

If someone wants to spread terror and sponsor/support the killing of innocent civilians I have no problem whatsover with them being "taken out". They gave up their right to life the moment they started killing people who are doing nothing but going about their lives.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

"Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people..."

Umm, I've read several news reports on this prior to this story, as well as CNN coverage, and NO ONE knows for certain who killed the Hamas arms dealer.

So how and why are you saying this without any qualifications to the claim? Something you'd like to share with us? Like maybe sheer proximity to a conflict equates to a sure bias on your part?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

Funny you were so apt in finding three massacres by Arabs and yet you didn't find any by Jews. Anyway that amounts to 105 people killed in all events. That's the total of victims in a normal IDF campaign day, like Gaza or Lebanon, for example.

Palestine is very racist? I'm the one not sure of what you mean exactly but I was talking of Israel. That beacon of democracy and human rights... for Jews. Be an Arab-Israeli and you'll be treated differently, pretty much like the Apartheid in South Africa.

As for the fabricating of the past, it's true. The Israeli prime-minister just declared a few more mosques and other Palestinian cultural sites as Jewish heritage sites, meaning those sites will be under Jewish control. There are accounts of prior similar actions that ended in the removal of Arab traces from the sites or even destruction. The Jewish human-rights organization B'Tselem is distributing cameras so that proof remains of these actions

While Palestine resupplies and rearms their militants and terrorists with decrepit and hand-made weapons that, according to the latest Gaza campaign and my calculations, have a kill ratio of 400:1, Israel keeps supplying it's terrorists and militants with state of the art weaponry, from tanks to jet fighters, not to mention nuclear WMDs, all with American tax payer's money.

How do I know that Israel doesn't want peace? Well, every time they talk of peace they threaten someone in the very same sentence. They keep colonizing the West Bank with settlements that the whole world says are illegal. They do not act as a responsible peaceful country. Let me give you an example. The UK didn't storm Northern Ireland with planes and tanks and phosphorus bombs, leveling buildings and killing women and children on the pretext that they needed to eliminate IRA terrorists now did it? But I agree with you when you say the best alternative really is full control of Palestine. But that's for the Jews. Because for the Palestinians, that's really the worst possible alternative. It amounts pretty much to ethnical and cultural obliteration. There is no room in Israel for Arabs. So where to exactly, would the Palestinians go in that best possible alternative of yours? Given the Jews don't want them in their shiny new country, perhaps you would be willing to give a piece of your country to take them in?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

The only reason there is a Palestinian state is because the rest of the Arabs themselves wouldn't take in the refugees. The creation of a "refugee" state was nothing but a political maneuver by the Arab nations. They wanted it simply because they could use it as a political weapon against Israel.

The Arab nations care not a whit for the suffering of the refugees. Israel has done more to help the Palestinian people than the Arab states ever have. Why? Because if the poverty and suffering went away it would be one less weapon for the Arab states to use against Israel.

With all the petro dollars the Arab nations have they could have invested in infrastructure in Palestine and done the same things for their own people that Israel has for its own. They didn't, and they won't. All they really care about is fostering hatred of Israel.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[LostCluster]

Actually, Lifelock lost the right to place fraud alerts for a fee in a case with Experian. They now contract with major banks to be told when their customers apply for credit, then Lifelock calls the customer to make sure it's a legit request.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[stdarg]

Funny you were so apt in finding three massacres by Arabs and yet you didn't find any by Jews.

Your claim was about Arabs NOT massacring Jews, so I gave evidence against that. I didn't claim Jews didn't ever do any massacring.

Palestine is very racist? I'm the one not sure of what you mean exactly but I was talking of Israel. That beacon of democracy and human rights... for Jews. Be an Arab-Israeli and you'll be treated differently, pretty much like the Apartheid in South Africa.

Do you think Jews in Palestine are not treated differently? Anyway, my point again is that both sides do it, and honestly I don't mind. Palestine and Israel are enemies, so of course they will treat each other badly!

While Palestine resupplies and rearms their militants and terrorists with decrepit and hand-made weapons that, according to the latest Gaza campaign and my calculations, have a kill ratio of 400:1, Israel keeps supplying it's terrorists and militants with state of the art weaponry, from tanks to jet fighters, not to mention nuclear WMDs, all with American tax payer's money.

This is evidence showing that Palestine has no interest in peace. Normal people do not arm themselves to fight an unwinnable war, deliberately targeting civilians because nothing else has any impact, and counting only on the good graces of the enemy (and political correctness) to avoid complete destruction.

The UK didn't storm Northern Ireland with planes and tanks and phosphorus bombs, leveling buildings and killing women and children on the pretext that they needed to eliminate IRA terrorists now did it?

Well that's a good point. There are many cases where terrorism is handled better than what we see in Israel, I have to agree with you there.

And I'll just note here that the IRA lost support when England gave concessions. The IRA is not supported today, even though the IRA still exists. In Palestine, when Israel gave concessions, that simply emboldened groups like Hamas and they lost no popular support. Why do you think that is different? (I don't know.) Or am I wrong?

But I agree with you when you say the best alternative really is full control of Palestine. But that's for the Jews. Because for the Palestinians, that's really the worst possible alternative. It amounts pretty much to ethnical and cultural obliteration. There is no room in Israel for Arabs.

I agree with you, but I feel that Arabs have helped put themselves in that position. Since the founding of Israel, Palestinians have sought military action and terrorism against Israel.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Gilmoure]

Or even Vancouver. The US has gotten pretty draconian about getting back in. I know the Mexico border now requires a passport (didn't used to). How about Canadia? Can you still drive across, just telling the guy at the border that you don't have any guns or drugs?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[sageres]

The massacres of Arabs against the Jews were in reply to the moron who claimed that Arabs did not kill the Jews. Here is more information on it:

December 1947 - Small kibbutzim were subjected to attacks - Gvulot, Ben-Shemen, Holon, Safed, Bat Yam and Kfar Yavetz. Sixty-two Jews were murdered by Arabs around Palestine. December 30, 1947 - 39 Jews were killed by Arab rioters at Haifa's oil refinery January 16, 1948 - 35 Jews were killed trying to reach Gush Etzion February 22, 1948 - 44 Jews were murdered in a bombing on Jerusalem's Rehov Ben-Yehuda February 29, 1948 - 23 Jews were killed all across Palestine, eight of them at the Hayotzek iron foundry. January and February 1948 - Rishon Lezion, Yehiam, Mishmar Hayarden, Tirat Zvi, Sde Eliahu, Ein Hanatziv, Magdiel, Mitzpe Hagalil and Ma'anit were all subjected to attacks. Arab attackers also bombedThe Palestine Post April 13, 1948 - 35 Jew were murdered during the Mount Scopus convoy massacre March and April - Assault on Hartuv by 400 Arabs based in the village of Ishwa and an attack on Kfar Darom by members of the Muslim Brotherhood. The Jewish Agency, the Solel Boneh building in Haifa and an Egged bus were bombed. May 15, 1948 - 127 Jews were massacred at Kfar Etzion, after 30 others had died defending the Etzion Bloc.

And here is more but a little after Oslo: http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/TerrorAttacks.html Oh and you are trying to say that throughout all events Arabs only killed 105 people.
1. You are an ignorant moron. Since September 2000 there has been 1,184 Israelis killed in the Arab terrorist acts. http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Terrorism/victims.html.
2. You are a stupid moron for trying to find a moral equivalence of the Arab terror compaign against the Israeli civilians where the peaceful population is deliverately targeted, and Israeli compaign against the Arab terrorists where the militants are targeted and the peaceful population is collateral damage. Nothing criminal about it on Israeli's end. Protection of your own population is paramount to whatever the idiots like you would say. Moving on.
Palestine is very racist. While Israel has multiple of nationalities, races and religions living in its proper (Samaritans, Beduins, Arabs, Druze, Africans who all comprise multi-religious and multi-ethnic fabric of Israeli society), Palestinian Autonomy has publicly executed in the past during the reign of Arafat its Christian citizens in Nablus, and on multiple occasions of request by the Jewish settlers for Palestinian citizenship refused (although vast majority of the Arabs in Palestine trace their ancestry to Egypt, Syria and Saudi Arabia, for example Yassir Arafat himself was born in Cairo).
Now also you proclaim that Israeli treat their non-Jewish as the South African apartheid government used to treat its blacks (or the Afrikaans I think you mean, whatever). So, you are either an uninformed or a lying moron.

Ethnic minorities have full voting rights in Israel and are entitled to government benefits. Israeli Employment (Equal Opportunities) Law, 1988 prohibits discrimination in hiring, working conditions, promotion, professional training or studies, discharge or severance pay and benefits and payments provided for employees in connection with their retirement from employment, because of race, religion, nationality and land of origin, among other reasons.[48] Prohibition of Discrimination in Products, Services and Entry into Places of Entertainment and Public Places Law, forbid those who operate public places or provide services or products to discriminate because of race, religion, nationality,and land of origin, among other reasons.[49]

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[IICV]

No no no, you've got it all wrong. If we agree with them, they're not terrorists - they're freedom fighters. Duh.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[sageres]

We do not know that. As a matter of fact I would say it is not true. Some converted to Christianity and Islam but modern DNA studies have proven the common link among all Jews in the world to a single ancestery; moreover those of Cohanic descent carry a special mutation in Y chromosome... http://www.humanitas-international.org/perezites/news/jewish-dna-nytimes.htm

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[billcopc]

*raises hand* I have a question!

Why is it that when mean things are said, regardless of their veracity, about the chinese, the russians, the dutch, or any other ethnic or geopolitical group, it's called racism, but when those same comments are aimed at jewish people, it's called anti-semitism ?

Why do jews get their own word, distinct from the stigma of racism ? What makes them so goddamned special ?

I'm going to posit my own theory, that everyone is "jumping on Israel's case" because Israel is always jumping on everyone else's case. Palestine this, Lebanon that... That country is seriously fucked up, and they hide behind pure medieval racism to justify their endless wars. It's a kindergarten scuffle taken to idiotic proportions. The greatest hypocrisy is that Israel is judged differently from all the other intolerant theocracies that make the middle-east the birthplace of blind hatred. Congrats to those who emigrate and start a fruitful life elsewhere.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[billcopc]

"ZOMG TERRORISM! Cancel the passport!"
"ZOMG your passport is invalid. You must be a terrorist!!!"
"ZOMG you can't apply for a new passport, because, you know, terrorism."
"ZOMG good people can't get passports anymore, so only terrorists have passports"

It's not like policy writers bother with unit testing.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[CodeBuster]

The problem is not the issuance of a government ID, the problem is that businesses are allowed to ask for it and use it as a form of ID.

They would still do it, even if it the government passed laws against it. It is just too convenient and too many business are already doing it. For example, here in the United States the Privacy Act of 1974 technically makes it illegal for non government agencies to use the Social Security Number for tracking or any other purpose. Of course, this law has been conveniently ignored by big businesses almost since it was passed and they have essentially gotten away with it because they give a lot of money to politicians and nobody in the government wants to stir the pot with big business because, well, its bad for business.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Killjoy_NL]

Well I'm dutch and we ARE bastards so we don't take offense to the truth ;)

Seriously though, 1 nitpick, since we're all of the human race (skin colours don't really mean a thing) it is discrimination, not racism.

Completely agree with you though.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

I agree with you, but I feel that Arabs have helped put themselves in that position. Since the founding of Israel, Palestinians have sought military action and terrorism against Israel.

The thing is, wouldn't you take military action or, if you can't, take terrorist action if you were in their shoes? Let me remind you that Hamas never organized any terrorist attack outside Palestine/Israel. In fact, and being so, I can't really see how that is much different from the French resistance against Germany in occupied France. Or, to put it in another way, like the colonizing of the west of the US. That's what Israel is precisely trying to do, I would say.

The Jewish settlers didn't let their conscience stop them from applying their own terrorist attacks on British and Arab interests to good effect. Why would the Arabs think otherwise? If Israel doesn't resort to terrorism it's because she doesn't need it. Although they do really walk on a thin line with the selective assassinations and whatnot (like the incident on topic).

Only a naive person would think that Jews (or Arabs for that matter) wouldn't apply disproportionate force in their actions. And only a naive person will think that the Palestinian conflict will not end in complete occupation and annexation of the West Bank by Israel. In fact, it's not really going to end, it's actually going to evolve to a different problem, and that is the one of displaced Palestinians and refugee migration. the Palestinians will become a displaced nation; a nation without country. The Jews replaced themselves by the Palestinians. So we still have a problem, we just changed a rich victim for a poor one. They will become a nation like the Kurds - and guess what, the Kurds also resort to terrorism.

All of this wouldn't be news except for the fact that Israel has the unconditional support of the US by working on two fronts. By lobbying in Washington it has a tight grip over US foreign policy. By playing the victim card ad nauseam and acting always as if they were victims of a unique hate. Any critic of Israel is immediately labeled an anti-semite, or at least immediate concerns of anti-semitism raise around that person. No one is really expecting that they'll turn on their consciences and behave correctly but at least they could stop bothering people with their whining like sheep when every one can see they really are the wolf.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

Well well well... And so they pop up. The champions of Israel.

And, like Israel herself they charge with devastating and disproportionate force

Funny that in a reply to GP that I just wrote I mentioned the anti-semite label. It was just like I could see you coming...

First of all, moderate your tongue fool. Your rhetoric does not impress me. Neither do your wikipedia references.

But let me clear up some of your distorted quotes. From your dear wikipedia, the sum of victims in the events the GP mentioned is really 105. Go and check. Don't take me for a fool. I never implied that that was the total number of Jewish victims since you people started colonizing Palestine.

It is also interesting you mention that the number of victims since Sep. 2000 is

1,184 Israelis killed in the Arab terrorist acts.

and you couldn't find a more impartial source than a Jewish website. But I can.

Let's see then:

- Lebanon 2006

from Wikipedia:

The Associated Press estimated the figure at 1,035

and

However, it has been widely reported that the majority of the Lebanese killed were civilians, and UNICEF estimated that 30% of Lebanese killed were children under the age of 13.

while

Hezbollah casualty figures are difficult to ascertain, with claims and estimates by different groups and individuals ranging from 184 to 1,000.

also

Hezbollah rockets killed 43 Israeli civilians during the conflict,[19] including four who died of heart attacks from rocket attacks.

and

In addition, 4,262 civilians were injured–33 seriously wounded, 68 moderately, 1,388 lightly, and 2,773 were treated for shock and anxiety.

from Reuters

LEBANON * CASUALTIES - Nearly 1,200 dead and 4,400 wounded, mostly civilians. The dead include about 270 Hezbollah fighters and 50 Lebanese soldiers and police, as well as five U.N. peacekeepers.

ISRAEL * CASUALTIES - 158 dead, most of them soldiers killed in Lebanon and including 43 civilians killed by Hezbollah rocket attacks. About 1,500 people were wounded in rocket attacks in Israel, and 450 soldiers were hurt in the fighting in Lebanon.

So, in a 34-day conflict, your defense forces almost managed to topple your victims number with the Lebanese. I made the math for you and it gives 23 dead Lebanese civilians per 1 Israeli civilian casualty. Of which 30% are estimated children under 13.

Lets turn to Gaza now. From wikipedia, refered by Reuters and BBC

Palestinian non-combatants

B'Tselem estimate: 773 of which 107 are women and 320 are children

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights estimate: 926 of which 116 are women and 313 are children

Israeli non-combatants

B'Tselem estimate: 3

IDF estimate: 1

Taking the estimates, and doing the math, that gives 257 dead Palestinian civilians per dead Israeli civilian. And that's taking the estimate from a Jewish NGO. And I'm not even going into the Goldstone report issue. I'm just going to remind people that Goldstone is a Jewish South African judge, still that didn't stop you from labeling him an anti-semite!

So, and to finish, while there are 1184 Israeli victims since 2000, you managed to kill around 2000 civilians in two conflicts since 2006!

You'd do better in keeping the insults to yourself and your compatriots. I am no ignorant. It is you that is a deceiving zealot that claims death for those

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[jDeepbeep]

without a single shred of evidence

Precisely. Of course this won't stop journalists from reporting it as fact.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Falconhell]

"Israel has done more to help the Palestinian people than the Arab states ever have"

Yeh. like stealing their land by terrorism, and creating a giant concentration camp, killing 10X
more Palestinians than Iraelis killed, yep thats a great help.

The refugee state was created when Israelis forced Palesinians off their OWn ladn into concentration camps.

Are you really so incredible naive or just an Israel shill?

Why shoould the other Arab nations pay for Israels theft?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[rtb61]

From an Australian prospective, can you at any point in history, show when a Australian agent forged another countries documents whom they were not a war with. Every claim you make against terror can be pointed straight back at Mossad, they are using terror in other countries to threaten the terrorists that the Israeli government created as a result of religious apartheid. Failure to arrest, prosecute and substantiate evidence of crime is an abandonment of the rule of law, putting other countries citizens at risk and tarnishing their reputation to feed ego and revenge not justice is abhorrent and shows a complete lack of respect for other countries laws and their citizens, the actions of a pariah state, not a just and honourable state.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Eli Gottlieb]

The thing is, wouldn't you take military action or, if you can't, take terrorist action if you were in their shoes?

Of course not! I'd sue for peace to build a better future for myself, my family, and my community.

In fact, and being so, I can't really see how that is much different from the French resistance against Germany in occupied France. Or, to put it in another way, like the colonizing of the west of the US. That's what Israel is precisely trying to do, I would say.

You really see no difference between Jews in the Jewish homeland and Europeans colonizing nations that are not their own?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Eli Gottlieb]

"Inventing a Jewish past", here in the sense that most modern Jews have no relation whatsoever to the Israelite Jews of ancient Palestine - whom as we all know were Christened around the year 300 ...

Right, all those genetic studies are just lying.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

I'm going to posit my own theory, that everyone is "jumping on Israel's case" because Israel is always jumping on everyone else's case. Palestine this, Lebanon that... That country is seriously fucked up, and they hide behind pure medieval racism to justify their endless wars. It's a kindergarten scuffle taken to idiotic proportions. The greatest hypocrisy is that Israel is judged differently from all the other intolerant theocracies that make the middle-east the birthplace of blind hatred. Congrats to those who emigrate and start a fruitful life elsewhere.

Let's posit this: How about every nation surrounding Israel is pledged to, or harbors organizations pledged to, Israel's destruction?

I don't know where you live, but if every country that borders yours allowed missiles to be fired into your country on a daily basis, and most were pledged to the total destruction, not of only your country, but of everyone in your country, just what would you do? Just sit back and never respond? What would you consider an appropriate response to the killing of your civilians? How many rockets a year could be fired into your country before you would consider a military response? 10? 50? 100? How many suicide bombers could cross the borders into your country before you consider searching each and every person from those neighboring country, and limiting travel, freight, etc... between the two countries?

My bet is that you won't honestly answer any of those questions you'll just attack me, because if you answer those questions honestly you'll see that there is no way you, your fellow citizens, or your country's politicians, would put up with what Israel has had done to it since its creation.

Now let's say that those people firing rockets into your country deliberately fired their rockets from the middle of civilian concentrations, such apartment buildings, churches, etc.... What would your response be? Would you refuse to respond to the attacks, or would you still go after the people firing rockets into your country?

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Eli Gottlieb]

Why is it that when mean things are said, regardless of their veracity, about the chinese, the russians, the dutch, or any other ethnic or geopolitical group, it's called racism, but when those same comments are aimed at jewish people, it's called anti-semitism ?

Because some German guy wanted something more scientific to call himself than "Jew-hater", which at the time sounded ever so behind the times and unfashionable.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

Palestine is very racist? I'm the one not sure of what you mean exactly but I was talking of Israel. That beacon of democracy and human rights... for Jews. Be an Arab-Israeli and you'll be treated differently, pretty much like the Apartheid in South Africa.

Lies. Arab citizens of Israel vote, run for office, form political parties, serve on the supreme court, and even sue the government and (sometimes) win. Did any of that happen in South Africa? Nope.

There are some Arabic newspapers & tv stations that are banned in many Arab countries - and yet are freely available in Israel.

Arab citizens of Israel are the freest Arabs in the entire middle east. Period.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

The fact is that the Israelis are not interested in peace. They want the full of Palestine and that's it.

Really? The original UN partition plan was to create 2 states, 1 Arab, 1 Israeli, with international status for Jerusalem (hmmm, I've also heard that many times in the last 20 years). The Jews accepted the UN proposal, while the Arabs refused, and chose war instead. The Arabs lost that war.

After losing the 1967 war, the Arabs got together in Khartoum to discuss the situation. This conference is sometimes called the "three nos" conference due to the Arabs' decisions:

      1. NO peace with Israel
      2. NO recognition of Israel
      3. NO negotiations with Israel

When Arafat was negotiating with Barak, Barak offered 97% of what Arafat was asking for. Instead of a counter-proposal, Arafat's response was to unleash intifada 2.0.

There are many documented examples showing that Israel is interested in peace and sharing the land. And there are many documented examples that the Arabs are not.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

You really see no difference between Jews in the Jewish homeland and Europeans colonizing nations that are not their own?

I'm sorry but Palestine is the Jewish homeland as much as Greece or Rome are the homeland of all of Europe including many Jews that live in it.

What I see is an ambiguous nation-religion colonizing a territory that is not theirs and happens to be home for another nation, just because its culture originated there a thousand years ago although they haven't been there for almost all that time. So, no, I really don't see a difference. Wait, maybe I do: I see a lame excuse.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

Perhaps you can point to them then.

I've read this one and this one and none of it shows that as clearly as you claim. In fact, they show the exact opposite. But hey, maybe they are anti-semites! Maybe everyone that criticizes Jews and Israel is an anti-semite! Maybe the whole world is!

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[TapeCutter]

"If someone wants to spread terror and sponsor/support the killing of innocent civilians I have no problem whatsover with them being "taken out". They gave up their right to life the moment they started killing people who are doing nothing but going about their lives."

In that case you should have no problems if someone takes out most of the Israeli government.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's why the GP said ID in the first paragraph. They were counterfeit, but used valid data, hence they're as good as stolen. Oh wait, are you using a subtle piracy isn't theft argument?

Should have used WGA/WAT.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[sageres]

Replying to this anti-Semitic garbage, again, in reply to your numbers:

2. You are a stupid moron for trying to find a moral equivalence of the Arab terror campaign against the Israeli civilians where the peaceful population is deliberately targeted, and Israeli campaign against the Arab terrorists where the militants are targeted and the peaceful population is collateral damage. Nothing criminal about it on Israeli's end. Protection of your own population is paramount to whatever the idiots like you would say.

In short -- you can not find moral equivalence between the terrorists who are using their children as human shields shooting at Israeli population and the Israeli population who are trying to prevent such shooting by targeting the terrorists. There is a difference who is your target. That what makes them terrorists. And in terms of the high ratio of Arab vs. Israeli casualties -- don't give me this bullshit of "disproportionate use of force". Just because I have gun and you have a knife, does not mean that I should drop a gun and grab that knife. It is your fault for bringing a knife into a gun fight. In other words -- we will use any and all means possible to protect our population against harm, even if it means destroying school from which the missiles are launched against our people. Now in regards to the original charge of you being anti-Semitic. That's because you accused us of "fabricating history". You are denying us our historical tie to the land and these structures. That in short is denying our identity, culture and religion. That is really what I find anti-Semitic. Not your anti-Israeli rants. P.S. A while ago Slashdot changed to become more Digg-like, and unpopular opinions became flagged as "flame-bate". That's fine with me.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[bstender]

I don't know where you live, but if every country that borders yours allowed missiles to be fired into your country on a daily basis, and most were pledged to the total destruction, not of only your country, but of everyone in your country, just what would you do? Just sit back and never respond?

This is a tired bait and switch. First, "Israel" is illegitimate, it isn't a country that just happened to have its neighbors decide to destroy it, it's a foreign occupation. Jewish interlopers started the terrorism and continues to this day to perpetrate blatant crimes against humanity and international law. Of course they want the colonists out, of course they want Israel GONE. Israel has no right to be there. They are squatting on the indigenous people's land by force of guns and ultra-terrorism. They should be gone. if it wasnt for their stranglehold on the US govt. they would be gone. US power allows it to continue... now the US has a debilitating war on terror, all to support the massive crime that is Israel.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

I was also seeing that argument coming.

You'll have to excuse me but I can't really see why would men that have no problem in blowing themselves up hide behind their women or their children. They don't use shields - that's probably their most blatant war signature. it's pretty clear by now that they are not afraid to die. Besides, considering the figures, each terrorist would have to use his entire family as shields in order to get the #non-combatants/#combatants dead ratio that you get now.

And you do not have the right to kill innocents even if it is to protect yourself. You can do it, as your troops admittedly do, but it's wrong. That's a moral standard of the western civilization. Police can't just shoot an hostage out of the way no matter how many people a kidnapper is threatening. So that is disproportionate force.

And the founding fathers of your country sure thought is was a good idea to engage in terrorist activity against British and Arab interests.They too murdered innocent people, Jews and Arabs alike. And they managed to get a country. Some of them even got Nobel prizes for peace. So why would Arabs think differently? Why could you do it then and they can't now? That's bullshit.

No one i denying the historical tie to anything. But the fact that you have it doesn't give you the right to go about doing whatever you want and killing whoever you want wherever you want...

You people behave externally like arrogant spoiled brats with an influent father of which you have no scruples of extorting to pay for your dangerous deadly toys that you use irresponsibly.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Attila Dimedici]

As I said earlier in a post further down this thread, Israel is not the only suspect. As a matter of fact, this report suggests that it was an Arab nation or two behind this assassination. http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1153316.html

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[stdarg]

The thing is, wouldn't you take military action or, if you can't, take terrorist action if you were in their shoes?

A simple criteria for terrorist action is to judge whether the consequences of defeat are greater than the consequences of terrorism.

If Israel were rounding up Palestinians and putting them to death, terrorism (any action whatsoever) would be justified.

But to take another example, if Canada conquered the US, I would not become a terrorist because Canada is not a "bad" country. They would not be exterminating Americans and the chances of peace would be high. Historically this is very common -- think how many wars there were in Europe that did not result in extermination. Most of them are merely about tax control, religious control, etc. I don't think resisting that is worth becoming an inhuman terrorist. Fight, sure, but I'm not going to blow up women and children, hide my weapons behind women and children, use women and children as hostages, etc. If you become a bigger problem than your enemy, you're doing it wrong.

the Palestinians will become a displaced nation; a nation without country. The Jews replaced themselves by the Palestinians. So we still have a problem, we just changed a rich victim for a poor one. They will become a nation like the Kurds - and guess what, the Kurds also resort to terrorism.

That's true but here is my suggestion. You have to involve other countries besides Israel. Surrounding countries that attacked Israel in the past are just as responsible for the Palestinian problem as Israel. How can that be disputed since the problem would not exist if they hadn't done so? So maybe some land needs to be taken back from Israel (they have offered this in the past), but more needs to be taken from surrounding countries and given to the Palestinians. Either that or surrounding countries (and Israel) should be forced to each accept a certain percentage of the Palestinian population. Either way, it should not be Israel's burden alone, because that is ignoring the key players that caused the Palestinian problem.

As for the Kurds I feel the same way. Take over part of Turkey and Iraq and Iran and give it to the Kurds.

Remember these countries were defined arbitrarily after colonialism and maybe they are not ideal. They need to be redefined to make it more ideal. I don't see a problem with that, morally or otherwise, and I feel like the result could only be better than what we have now.

All of this wouldn't be news except for the fact that Israel has the unconditional support of the US by working on two fronts. By lobbying in Washington it has a tight grip over US foreign policy.

That is only half true and you know it. It would also not be news if Palestine didn't have the unconditional support of (nearly) the entire Muslim world, including all of the Middle East. Iran is a well-known funder of terrorists against Israel in the name of Palestine. Every major jihad movement in the world cites Palestine as an issue.

Any critic of Israel is immediately labeled an anti-semite, or at least immediate concerns of anti-semitism raise around that person.

That is a legitimate problem, BUT again, it is only half the truth. Anybody who criticizes terrorism linked with Islam and Palestine specifically is immediately labeled an "Islamophobe", a racist, a supporter of genocide, etc. It's bullshit. There's no room for honest debate on either side except by people who don't care about labels and unfortunately those people have no political power (either in the West or the Muslim world).

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[hjrnunes]

By lobbying in Washington it has a tight grip over US foreign policy.

That is only half true and you know it.

I thought I knew it. But now and after reading an insightful book I realized something different. These guys present a wide array of references to support their theory that the Israel lobby's effectiveness in the US is hurting both countries by stopping the US from using it's leverage on Israel and at the same time keep US aid flowing in. This hurts American strategic interests like the relations with Arab oil states and hurts Israeli interests in the long run by incitement of terrorism against Israeli and American interests. They refer to situations where the lobby's hard-line is even harder than the Israeli official position. They also successfully demonstrate that critics of Israel have a harder time in the US than in Israel itself, as the Israeli press is very aware and often critic of the government actions. They actually rely mostly on Israeli press articles and references throughout the whole book. The same cannot be said of the US. I totally recommend it.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[nedlohs]

Said terrorist probably hasn't committed a crime in Dubai.

Said assassins have.

Surprise, surprise the police in Dubai want the ones that broke the law.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

Ummmm.... I beg to differ. In modern times Great Britain, under the auspices of the League of Nations, set out to give the Jews a homeland. Those two entities decided where the State of Israel would be, not the Jews. That makes their state a legitimate state in the eyes of international law. It was also the home of the Jews for thousands of years. Saying that the Jews are "foreign" to Palestine and only Arabs have a right or any history is there is worse than disingenuous.

I love how you just ignored my questions. I knew it would happen because you have displayed no interest fairness. From what I've seen from you so far you're just another bigot. And, no I'm not a Jew, and have only known a few Jews personally. Some were good people, some weren't. Just like everyone else. I can also say the same thing for the few Arabs I've known. Some good, some bad.

I've also seen the massive discrimination practiced against the Jews, the irrational hatred and behavior that is directed at them. I say, more power to the Jews. They need to do what they need to do to survive. You and I would do the same if the positions of either of us and the Jews were reversed and we feared for the existence of not only our nations but our races.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

Well, in that case the governments of most the of the Arab countries should be in for the same treatment.

The Israelis aren't the ones that want to force everyone else out of the area or destroy the Arab race. It's the other way around. It's the leaders of Iran, Egypt, Syria, at one time Iraq, and most of the smaller Arab states, who have called for the total elimination of the Jews. They want to finish what Hitler started.

 

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[ffreeloader]

Oh, brother. You deny Australia has intelligence services and that they use fake passports from countries other than Australia to move around the world undetected and anonymously? You can't really be that naive.

You're bashing the Mossad because they used copies of passports belonging to Israelis who just happened to have dual citizenship. That's right. They didn't use an Irishman's passport that was a full-blooded Irishman. They used the passport of a Jew who held dual citizenship, in Israel and in Ireland. The same with passports from all the other countries that are complaining.

This is nothing more than anti-Semitic posturing on the parts of any nation that is complaining. They don't really care. They have agents using multiple 'personalities" all the time. Every nation on earth does it, and every intelligence service on earth uses forged passports from all kinds of different countries. You can't really be naive enough to believe only the "evil" Jews do this.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Attila Dimedici]

The refugee state was created when Israelis forced Palesinians off their OWn ladn into concentration camps.

The Palestinians in the refugee camps left their lands voluntarily when the U.N. partition went into affect (well, their grandparents did) at the urging of many Arab leaders.
It is important to remember, if you make war on an enemy who is better armed than yourself, many more on your side will die than on you enemy's side.
The only way the conflict between Israel and the Arabs will end is if one of two things happens. Either the Israelis inflict so much pain and suffering on the Palestinians and other Arabs that they would rather go elsewhere than continue fighting, or the Arabs kill the overwhelming majority of the Jews in Israel (the stated goal of most Palestinian organizations). So, while the Israelis have done terrible things to the Palestinians, the Palestinians have called many of these things down on themselves.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[bstender]

Through backroom dealings, the Zionists convinced Britain to unilaterally grant them a "homeland", not a State. The State was declared unilaterally by the settlers. None of this was done with the agreement of the local inhabitants, neither have they been compensated for this appropriation. Many states now do recognize it, but obviously not everyone agrees with the declarations and if i recall correctly, there were conditions that the UN laid down to formally recognize statehood that have never been met, the right of return being a very large one.
However legality and morality are not always in synch, the patent land theft and refugee problem has to be resolved to gain any moral claim to be there and that's where the lasting peace will be found.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[RockDoctor]

... and no way to scrub your permanent record

Which part of the word "permanent" did you misunderstand?

Of course there is no way to scrub any part of your permanent record. That is what the word "permanent" in "permanent record" means.

There may be (and probably should be) a way to insert a preamble to a permanent record of the form "records between X and Y are compromised due to an identity theft event detailed at Z", but because it's possible for an ID theft victim to also be an axe murderer during the period of ID-theft, then it wouldn't be right to expunge a "permanent record" on the grounds of an ID theft.

Of course, people writing applications to use "permanent records" should include facilities to red-flag events given an "ID theft" preamble.

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people

Of course they don't ; they're only dual-nationality citizens and/ or visitors from friendly powers. It's not like they're anything important, like allies.

Re:I've lost my idenity, can I have a new one?

[Eli Gottlieb]

I'm sorry but Palestine is the Jewish homeland as much as Greece or Rome are the homeland of all of Europe including many Jews that live in it.

Why? What makes it not our country?

What I see is an ambiguous nation-religion colonizing a territory that is not theirs and happens to be home for another nation, just because its culture originated there a thousand years ago although they haven't been there for almost all that time.

Haven't been there? There have always been Jews in Israel. For most of recent history, however, oppression on Jews was so great that we never became a majority.

And Jewish culture originated in Israel 3000 years ago. If you want a culture in the Middle East that is about 1000 years old, look at Islam.

It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

That makes me think that Hamas and Isreal deserve each other.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[LostCluster]

Yeah... it seems life was better here when we let those in arguments that will never be settled fight among themselves instead of letting them fight us in their home land.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[dbIII]

They've created each other - it's truly bizzare that some people in Israel grew up to be genocidal fascists and that they they even managed to get into government. Timing an invasion and then a pogrom in the Gaza ghetto for elections helped them stay in power, and it was counterproductive since any moderate voice on the other side became irrelevant.
The country deserves neither and is the only place in that part of the world where there is anything resembling the rule of law, even if it comes with something resembling apartheid

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, because Israel assasinated a Hamas leader and the Australian government leaked the details of forged passports it means they deserve each other. Wait what exactly did Hamas do?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cassius Corodes]

On the hamas leader see: http://www.michaeltotten.com/2010/02/more-like-this-please.php

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Assissinations on foreign soil, using an identity of a citizen of a yet another country (possibly ruining their lives in the process) is something to be cheered?

I think not. That is not to say I'm somehow sad for his passing, just for this rampant lawlessness.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Mashiki]

More worldly travel will do you good. Let me know when Hamas doesn't kill Jews on sight.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Opportunist]

Well, .... aw heck, I got karma to burn. I'm pretty sure not too many would care about their struggle, just wake us when one of you remains and have at it. What bothers most of the world is just that they can't keep to themselves and pull us into their struggle. It's a bit like two kids fighting in the sand pit under your window. Would you care if they didn't scream louder than you can turn your TV set?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[alchemy101]

The heartless person in me has always thought that the rest of the world should just step aside and let themselves wipe each other out from the face of the Earth and let it be an important lesson to the rest of us.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[ja]

What exactly did the Palestinians do to deserve being deported by Jewish terrorists?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Max Littlemore]

John Saffran seems to be okay. Tell me, do Hamas fighters distribute shirts with cross hairs on pregnant women and wear them with pride?

Isreal is the perfect lesson in why we must never give in to terrorists and their demands. Let them win once and we justified the means. Now they are a nuclear state with a large segment of the population believing in their "glorious" terrorist propaganda. It may be too late to do anything.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[MikShapi]

Killing someone who would otherwise kill your and my kids indiscriminately if they happen to be at the wrong place & the wrong time can be cheered, yes.

I applaud a proper judicial system & process in environments where it can be applied.
When dealing with modern-day high-profile civilian-targeting combatants who travel on forged papers (which the assassination victim allegedly was) I'd rather see him taken out of action, permanently if possible, using whatever means necessary.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

OK, let's see: the Dubai police has, so far, incriminated 26 suspects which have fled the country, two of them to Iran. The only individuals actually captured by the Dubai police are 3 Palestinians. (That would make the number of operatives equal to 29). Additionally, the police actually found succinylcholine (a muscle relaxant) in Mabhouh's blood (so he wouldn't fight back when, allegedly, smothered with a pillow). Some of the passports used by the alleged operatives belong to Israeli citizens (7 of them, IIRC).

You don't see any problem with these?

First of all, 29 operatives - that's a recipe for disaster; the more people involved, the higher the likelihood for an error. Mossad has used two to four people in the past, even for much higher profile targets (we know this from the few botched missions). As for how much does adding people to the operation increase the likelihood for error, it's given by the formula 1 - (1 - q)^n, where q is the likelihood that one agent will screw up, and n is the number of participating agents.
Secondly, no Israeli agent would flee to Iran - because it's a paranoidly tightly controlled police state.
Thirdly, Mossad would never use identities stolen from Israeli citizens, as that would endanger the lives of said citizens (and protecting lives of Israeli citizens is one of Mossad's raison d'etre), AND it would point a giant flashing sign at Israel. Mossad doesn't need to use Israeli citizen's identities.
Fourthly, Mossad does not leave traces behind them. Their targets have historically been either shot or their death defied forensics.
Fifthly, the only captured people are Palestinians. This would point at the involvement of Fatah rather than Israel.

The whole operation, while successful, seems mired in sloppiness (having such a large group of people involved, all of them identified - WTF? And leaving evidence at the scene etc. etc.), which should be enough to discredit the claim that Mossad was in involved.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Killing someone who would otherwise kill your and my kids indiscriminately if they happen to be at the wrong place & the wrong time can be cheered, yes.

I assume then that you are cheering for elimination of most of those active in the Israeli political scene, since most of them are Hell-bent on starving and beating the denizens of the West Bank and Gaza Ghettos into obedient submission, no?

I have news for you, Skippy: we in the rest of the world (excepting some parts of the US where they expect Second Coming on the next Tuesday at the latest) have looooong since stopped buying the Pure-as-a-driven-snow Eternal Victimhood crap Israelis are peddling, quite a few "preemptive" wars and "collective punishment" campaigns back. The only reason that Israel is still supplied with vast no-questions-asked transfers of wealth and arms from the unwitting US taxpayers is because Israelis have a strangle-hold on US politics (along with gigantic corporations and other related wannabe global feudal aristocracy). And anyone can already sense that it is only a matter of time until something is going to give, rather violently, if this trend towards neo-feudalism continues unabated.

So I would suggest that pull your heads out of your apartheid asses and do something actually constructive to resolve the problem, beginning with massive reparations for all the land and property you've stolen (incidentally, and quite ironically, a process not much different from that relating to Jewish Nazi-confiscated property).

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

... Mossad has used two to four people in the past, even for much higher profile targets (we know this from the few botched missions) ... which should be enough to discredit the claim that Mossad was in involved ....

You've confused propaganda about Mossad activities spread by Israel and US-dwelling Israeli citizens (many of them in positions of great power in US media and entertainment industries) which was until not so long ago the "dominant" view in the absence of the Internet and ubiquitous digital cameras, with reality.

The truth is that Mossad (and most other intelligence agencies) was always this sloppy, but they operated in a very forgiving environment, where all the successes could be safely exaggerated and all the screw-ups completely swept under the carpet.

The Dubai situation is simply what happens when the terrain on which Mossad had chosen to operate differs significantly from a typical impoverished, inept, technologically in the dark-ages back-water where they usually do their dirty deeds.

And it is a sign of things to come. Mossad is being put on notice: your usual shit will not fly anymore and no amount of selective propaganda will compensate for the realities of the digital age and Orwellian police-state mass digital surveillance that is becoming the norm in the Gulf states.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cyberax]

That can work both ways. Palestinians think: "Why not kill Israels if they cheer killing you indiscriminately if you happen to be at the wrong place & wrong time?"

Israel does state-sponsored terrorism, it's pure and simple.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

And we deserve a TERRORIST STATE like Israel. Basically, if it was Iran doing the same (copying foreigners passports at their main airport, making fake copies and having their Revolutionary Guard agents entering Monaco to kill some Mossad hired gun), we will probably have bombed Iran back to stone age already.
And I am jewish, so don't get to me with your zionist bullshit or your self-deprecating "the nazis sent us to the concentration camps" shit.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[jabuzz]

Still does not explain two of the alleged operatives fleeing to Iran. If that is accurate it would make Mossad involvement seem very unlikely, especially given that Hamas have plenty of other enemies.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

I think I listed plenty of reasons, and each argument by itself is enough to discredit the claims by the Dubai police. (e.g. Forged Israeli national's passports? Please.).

All you have as a retort is a handwaving argument about secret services being all sloppy. Well, I know the CIA has been sloppy, there is proof of it (like the double-agent in Afghanistan that blew up 7 american FBI and CIA agents), and there have been unsuccessful Mossad operations, but there is no proof of sloppy Mossad executions. Your handwaving does not constitute an argument.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[tg123]

John Saffran seems to be okay. Tell me, do Hamas fighters distribute shirts with cross hairs on pregnant women and wear them with pride?

Just to let people know John Saffran is a documentary maker who survived an upbringing as an Orthodox Jew in Melbourne.

Whatever ever happened it was traumatic and has scarred the man for life and his shows seem to always have a religious bent.

I think he is letting all his childhood frustrations out.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Safran

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Varför är Jag inte överaskat att en svensk hatar judar. Och mina svenska vänner undrar varför jag är slut med Sverige.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Isreal is the perfect lesson in why we must never give in to terrorists and their demands.

1. isrAEl, not isrEAl. I suspect that is not a typo.
2. Who "gave in" to the "Jewish terrorists" exactly?
After WWII most colonies were granted independence about the same time frame. The British mandate was just an excuse for a colony carved out of WWI booty they got from the Turks.

The creation of the Jewish state is a consequence of facts on the ground:
a. The Brits had to leave sooner or later,
b. De-facto existence of an organized Jewish establishment able to run a country;
only the ability to defend it against Arabs, is to be attributed to the "Jewish terrorists".

The world had played a part, or "given in" to the Jewish WWII refugees who sought to illegally cross the border to Israel. I don't suppose you consider holocaust survivors to be "terrorists"?
Seriously, just because the "Jewish terrorists" said they won against the Brits, and it was picked up by clueless journalists, it does not infer they actually did make a difference historically speaking.

I realize though that Palestinians took all of the Jewish B.S. without a grain of salt, and that is causing a great deal of trouble today.
Funny how nobody bothers to read history.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

But... their scream IS televised...

Re:It's this kind thing..

[u38cg]

You are assuming independence. Given they probably all receive similar training and have similar cultural backgrounds, I would reckon Qn has a positive covariance and hence the chances of a fuckup are even worse :p

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Eh, that's kind of far fetched, but not impossible.

However if we go down this path, perhaps Mossad orchestrated this operation in this way in order for it to appear as an internal struggle, to both remain invisible themselves and win a political victory in spreading uncertainty in the enemy ranks.

See? Or perhaps Hamas did it themselves, just to get a good "bone" to pick with Israel.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas was created by Israel to counter the main Palestinian political organisation at the time. Israel always has some entity ready so they can make the 'no partner for peace' excuse. The main thing in Hamas' favour is that they are defending their country (or what is left of it) against an occupying force (just like the Taliban and the US in Afghanistan, the French Resistance against the Germans in WWII, the US Founders against the British etc, etc)

Re:It's this kind thing..

[hazah]

Because reparations have worked SOOOOO well in the past there. Are you failing to note that every time that has been tried, these "peace loving" assholes started killing even more?? When would you say "enough is enough"?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[jecblackpepper]

I'm not so sure. They believed that the death would be written off as natural and not a murder. If that had happened then no-one would have been looking for them. That's also why they were willing to operate where cameras could see them.

Mossad will have dozens of operatives in Iran, so they already know how to get people in and out of Iran - and flying from Dubai is probably a good route for getting agents to Iran - they aren't going to fly from Tel Aviv are they.

So I can't take this as evidence that it's not Mossad. I don't know that it is - though the circumstantial evidence is that it is Mossad.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Xest]

I think it probably was Mossad, but the whole situation is a little odd.

Fleeing to Iran is weird certainly, the inclusion of Palestinians is odd. I don't see the use of Israeli citizen's passports as odd though, as the passports used were of people with dual citizenship and as such probably aren't seen by Mossad as "true citizens" such that they were probably treated as fair game, the fact they had British passports etc. was a bonus.

There were other odd things though- as was said, they didn't bother to do anything about the security cameras, the faked passports were easily identified as fake, sloppily so- unique identifiers on the passports for example didn't use the correct combination of letters and numbers on some of them, so not only were they not valid identifiers, but the identifiers weren't even of the right pattern.

I suspect we'll never know what happened, and I suspect Israel is at least somewhat responsible, but I do wonder perhaps if they were working with another country which wasn't quite so experienced at this.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

The only reason that Israel is still supplied with vast no-questions-asked transfers of wealth and arms from the unwitting US taxpayers is because Israelis have a strangle-hold on US politics

The reason they have vast support is you'd have to be blind and stupid not to see the tactics and motivations of the people Israel has to deal with and conclude that Israel is worth supporting.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

If only that were true. It's well known that Hamas purposely occupies places like schools and residential homes. How can you draw a comparison between that and Israel's "terrorism"? You are purposely abstracting too much.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

Begging the question -- fail.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[misexistentialist]

Now that Mossad has built up such a good reputation the only way they can cover up their operations is to make them appear sloppy. Apparently they were still too subtle, so next time they should leave a few Mossad ID cards and a Star of David necklace behind.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Because reparations have worked SOOOOO well in the past there. Are you failing to note that every time that has been tried, these "peace loving" assholes started killing even more?? When would you say "enough is enough"?

More Israeli double-standard bullshit. No reparations of any significance were ever offered. Given the value of the properties taken by Israel plus compounded interest, the reparations would be in the hundreds of billions of today's US dollars. But it is a typical Israeli maneuver to throw some scraps under the table and then exclaim with great "shock and horror" that the "unreasonable and nasty" Arabs refuse "everything", thus implying that the scraps were some sort of ultimate, cosmic, awe-inspiring gift far and above what's owed - recent example including Arafat "walking away" from an offer of "98%" of "what was ever asked" of Israel (in the form of a haphazard network of untenable Bantustans criss-crossed by Israeli roads and armed settler camps and with no autonomy over anything that matters)...

And again, we got wise to this something like 20 times ago you've tried to pull this crap. It must be a heady mindset to keep doing the same thing over and over and expect that mere mortals like us will never catch on to what the "God's chosen" are doing.

Also, precisely because you've been trying to royally screw the Arabs for so long and so persistently, their internal politics became more and more radicalized and fatalistic. Hence the rise of ever more hard-line fundamentalist religious wackos like Hamas to power over the likes of secular forces of Fatah. Keep it up and the odds of Israel surviving as a "Jewish state" without a bona-fide "final Arab solution" complete with cattle cars and high efficiency ovens are decreasing by the minute.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cyberax]

And Israels build cities near military bases. So?

"How can you draw a comparison between that and Israel's "terrorism"?"

Look 'terrorism' definition in Wikipedia. You can argue that Israel and HAMAS do it to different degrees. But really...

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Xest]

"John Saffran seems to be okay. Tell me, do Hamas fighters distribute shirts with cross hairs on pregnant women and wear them with pride?"

If you class standing behind them with an AK47 shooting at Israeli soldiers, or launching rocket attacks from their bedroom roof as a t-shirt with a cross hair on then yes, absolutely.

I very much dislike Israel, particularly recently with their election of an even less moderate government, but let's not pretend Hamas are innocent. They're certainly as much to blame for civilian deaths as Israel is and at least Israel has shown some restraint- they could've completely cleansed Gaza of any living being by now if they really wanted to as they have the power to do so, but they've far from done that. Do you really believe Hamas would show a similar level of restraint if positions were swapped keeping in mind that Hamas has said that even if they got their own way they would seek to destroy the Jewish population and with the Islamic Brotherhood would attempt the same in Egypt, and many other nations too?

There are some pretty big problems on both sides, Israel is certainly the lesser of two evils, but only just, although they seem to working quite hard to change that right now with their continued illegal settlement expansion and so forth.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Eli Gottlieb]

If you really believe that, back EU and American support away from all Palestinian and Israeli organizations and governments... and then don't complain when Israel kicks the Arabs straight into Jordan.\

Westerners always get mad about their own intervention Israeli-Palestinian conflict when the side they're not on scores a point, but as long as their side wins they're perfectly happy to meddle and interfere to the hilt in the name of "peace".

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

The reason they have vast support is you'd have to be blind and stupid not to see the tactics and motivations of the people Israel has to deal with and conclude that Israel is worth supporting.

That theory is somewhat fucked up as soon as one realizes that those tactics and motivations are a reaction to Israeli aggression. But blaming those you step on for daring to try to knife your foot is also a standard Israeli modus operandi since even before the formal formation of that state.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

(e.g. Forged Israeli national's passports? Please.).

If one is about to forge passports, what better method then to use facilities under your control to duplicate foreign passports of dual-citizenship holders when they visit Israel (which is the common denominator of the Dubai plot passports). Since very few non-Jews do so these days and given the political climate in Israel it is likely that the misguided Mossad shmucks doing the forging probably expected some sort of patriotic rallying around the flag by the victims if the scheme was discovered, it is quite a reasonable assertion.

... but there is no proof of sloppy Mossad executions.

What was the last Mossad operation you know of in Dubai (or anywhere else for that matter) in the presence of ubiquitous electronic surveillance, again?

Your handwaving does not constitute an argument.

I provided a reasonable assessment of the changing conditions in regards of increasing quality and quantity of electronic surveillance. You've offered nothing other than completely unwarranted assumptions based exclusively on self-serving Israeli propaganda and absence of press releases by the Western powers. It is pretty obvious who is doing the hand-waving here.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Still does not explain two of the alleged operatives fleeing to Iran. If that is accurate it would make Mossad involvement seem very unlikely, especially given that Hamas have plenty of other enemies.

That depends on two factors: the quality of the forgeries .... and if the individuals in question actually disembarked in Iran instead of just catching the next ship/plane somewhere else, never having set foot outside the duty-free zone.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

If one is about to forge passports, what better method then to use facilities under your control to duplicate foreign passports of dual-citizenship holders when they visit Israel (which is the common denominator of the Dubai plot passports). Since very few non-Jews do so these days and given the political climate in Israel it is likely that the misguided Mossad shmucks doing the forging probably expected some sort of patriotic rallying around the flag by the victims if the scheme was discovered, it is quite a reasonable assertion.

Two fallacies: first, obviously the method you mention isn't good, as long as it involves duplicating the identities of Israeli nationals. Secondly, a lot of non-Jews visit Israel.
Oh wait, there are other fallacies: thrid: you have obviously completely married and committed to your own idea that the passports must have been duplicated on Israeli soil, so you can't see the other possibilities - for instance, oh, I dunno... that they weren't. And because you are so married to that idea, you could never even contemplate the thought that the identities were not stolen by an Israeli secret service, but someone else. That would require you to open your view a bit, widen the tiny little box in which your brain is capable of operating. A huge intellectual task indeed, for the likes of you. But if you try, you will make a giant leap for yourself.

Finally, your use of the term "Jews", "schmucks" and "rallying around the flag" shows that you're nothing more than a bigoted racist, and hence, firmly limited by the tiny-miny little mental box in which you painted your whole existence.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

Apparently they were still too subtle, so next time they should leave a few Mossad ID cards and a Star of David necklace behind.

Don't give the Dubai chief of police an new ideas. Let him use his own creativity.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

While I don't agree with your main conclusion (that it probably was Mossad), at least I don't mind discussing with an intelligent interlocutor such as yourself. What a breath of fresh air, in this thread!

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

I agree it's fucked up but it's true. If one side presents itself as seeking peace here and now and the other side presents itself as seeking destruction and extermination here and now then regardless of historical issues the one side seems more fair.

Really, the argument you're making for the Palestinian side is self defeating because it just encourages each side to dig a little more to find a grievance, and you can always find a grievance. You're never going to win that one decisively. Oh, the Jews killed this leader in a riot. Oh, but the Palestinians had this riot. Oh, yeah, that was in response to this. Oh, but the Palestinians provoked that.

Be honest. Here and now, ignoring history, who is more right? Should that have an impact on who is more right when we don't ignore history? You can say it shouldn't, but why? At what point do you accept that people have changed and deserve a new chance?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

And Israels build cities near military bases. So?

You don't see a moral difference between troops stationed near a city and "troops" stationed in a school, weapons caches and all, while there are actually children there and classes going on? Come on.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cyberax]

HAMAS says that since everyone in Israel must serve in military, killing children is OK - it's just premature military action.

As horrible as it sounds, I've heard the exact same statements from Israels. And actions of Israel military seem to follow exactly this statement.

By now I don't see the difference between Palestine and Israel. Frankly, I think there'll be peace in Middle East only when Arabs kill all Jews or Jews kill all Arabs. I'm a pessimist.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

I think you are stretching to create moral equivalence in two situations that are not equivalent. They have similar outcomes (death of civilians) and that is what you are building your case on, but you are ignoring all morality in what produces those outcomes. That's fair if you really are a strict consequentialist, but most people tend to back away from that in other situations (e.g. self-defense vs. accidental death vs. murder).

Re:It's this kind thing..

[CodeBuster]

Mossad has used two to four people in the past, even for much higher profile targets (we know this from the few botched missions)

Perhaps generally, but not always. For example, in Operation Spring of Youth there were probably at least one dozen (a few zodiac boats filled with special forces types; the exact number has never been publicly disclosed) shooters. I will grant you that Mossad was probably not as experienced back then, but it does serve as an early counter example to the small team argument.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Really, the argument you're making for the Palestinian side is self defeating ...

No, the argument I am making is that both sides are self-defeating (although for different reasons). The crucial point however is that only Israel (as the vastly dominant side) has the power to stop this nonsense.

Be honest. Here and now, ignoring history, who is more right? Should that have an impact on who is more right when we don't ignore history? You can say it shouldn't, but why? At what point do you accept that people have changed and deserve a new chance?

See above. History is only a part of the equation. Disparity of power and dignity of those oppressed for so long is now the key element, without acknowledging which nothing will get resolved.

Also, time is running out - as the ascendancy of Hamas so pointedly highlights.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

Two fallacies: first, obviously the method you mention isn't good, as long as it involves duplicating the identities of Israeli nationals

How so? Do you think anyone sane would believe that a coalition of Irishmen, Frenchmen, Germans, Australians and a few random other nationals suddenly decided to collaborate painstakingly for months to take out a Hamas official? The value of picking strictly foreign individuals visiting Israel (as opposed to dual citizenship holders) is rather marginal and in case if Israelis, when the shit really hits the fan, they can be simply reigned in by the Israeli government under auspices of "national defense", something that cannot be done to purely foreign individuals.

you have obviously completely married and committed to your own idea that the passports must have been duplicated on Israeli soil, so you can't see the other possibilities - for instance, oh, I dunno... that they weren't.

The information that these people traveled to Israel and are dual citizenship holders was actually provided by the respective governments of the countries where those passports were issued, post facto - which is why it is considered such a strong indicator. Dubai authorities did not make it up (nor was the Israeli citizenship noted in the passports themselves - dual citizenships usually are not - also the names of the holders were not immediately recognizable as Jewish). So you are barking up the completely wrong tree here.

And because you are so married to that idea, you could never even contemplate the thought that the identities were not stolen by an Israeli secret service, but someone else.

Yes, sure, there is a whole lineup of organizations capable of perfect passport forgeries of passports of multiple nations just queued up to spend months and untold tens of thousands of dollars to do in a Hamas official, whom only Israel was after. Probably some off-shoot of the United Way charity, no?

I mean, how naive (or in your case, willfully blind) can you get?

Finally, your use of the term "Jews", "schmucks" and "rallying around the flag" shows that you're nothing more than a bigoted racist, and hence, firmly limited by the tiny-miny little mental box in which you painted your whole existence.

Ah the, "you said 'Jew' and so you are a card-carrying White Arian Nazi Muslim Commie Anti-Semite ... err Fascist!" canard. How unexpected of you! FYI: "Jew" is a name of a religion and a dictionary term found in every English dictionary, "shmuck" is an yiddish slang term for a "dunce", and "rallying around the flag" is a standard phrase very oft used in US politics. But then again, who am I to dissuade you from your "they failed to worship My Awesome Mind and so they are all filthy Anti-Semites!!!" mentality. You just wouldn't be quite your usual self-satisfied supremacist self without it.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Falconhell]

It's well known that Hamas purposely occupies places like schools and residential homes.

I see a lot of rubbish like this, the human shield
lie. IF human shields were effective in protecting anyone form Israel, how come UN schools
end up being firebombed with phosphorus?

It has been plain for some time that Israel makes no attempt to avoid civilian casulaties in its regular mini genocides.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Eli Gottlieb]

as the passports used were of people with dual citizenship and as such probably aren't seen by Mossad as "true citizens"

One third of Israelis are immigrants; nobody considers them as "not true citizens" for holding onto a passport from the country in which they were born.

But go ahead and believe paranoid fantasies about the Mossad being a smoke-filled room of Jewish KKK rituals.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Max Littlemore]

umm, I responded to an idiot talking about Hamas shooting Jews on sight - an Isreali right wing fantsy and I responded with a dig about those t-shirts that show that sections of the IDF really are sub human. Oh and I included a reminder that zionists hold a lot of firsts in the development of terrorism, seeing as we're discussing Isreal and not Jews.

This does not mean I think Hamas are innocent, but Isreal isn't the lesser of two evils. If Isreal stopped building settlements on land they don't own, stopped cutting basic supplies for areas they surround and pulled back to within their recognised territory, Hamas would not have been voted in to power in Palestine and it's membership would be tiny.

Hamas radicalism is a symptom and if Hamas was in the Isreali position, they too would be trying on the "we are a responsible modern government trying to deal with these terrorists" line. They are as bad as each other

oh and Hamas don't stand behind pregnant women. come on, think about it for a moment. how big do you think they are, large enough that the only way you could shoot a fighter behind is to target the womb? The shirts I referred to were spcifically celebrating targeting and shooting women and unborn children. If i spin that in the style of the Isreali propaganda which most people seem to be buying, I would say that the IDF's mission is to commit genocide of the Palestinians and, given compulsory national service, all of Isreal is committed to the genocide of the Palestinian people. See how it works?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas was created by Israel to counter the main Palestinian political organisation at the time.

Not true. Hamas was created by Arabs. It is true that Israel preferred & supported Hamas over the PLO, because Israel didn't think anyone could be worse than the PLO.

The main thing in Hamas' favour is that they are defending their country (or what is left of it) against an occupying force

Ha. There has never, ever, in the history of history been a Palestinian country. Way back on March 31, 1977, the Dutch newspaper Trouw published an interview with Palestine Liberation Organization executive committee member Zahir Muhsein.

Here's what he said:

The Palestinian people does not exist. The creation of a Palestinian state is
only a means for continuing our struggle against the state of Israel for our
Arab unity. In reality today there is no difference between Jordanians,
Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Only for political and tactical reasons do
we speak today about the existence of a Palestinian people, since Arab national
interests demand that we posit the existence of a distinct "Palestinian people"
to oppose Zionism.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

that was awesome

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

Any human being would resort to the tactics Israel "has to deal with". It's just too bad it's not a fair fight, they should have to deal with much much more.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Xest]

"Hamas would not have been voted in to power in Palestine and it's membership would be tiny."

yeah, and al Qaeda, the Islamic Brotherhood and Hezbollah would cease to exist too right?

I don't think you really understand the problem of radicalisation. Particularly the stated aims of the likes of the Islamic Brotherhood - one of Hamas' closest allies of also wanting to turn Egypt into an Islamic state, we have radicals throughout Europe pushing for the same. They're not just going to go away if Israel hands back territory, they're not going to just stop moving in weapons to attack Israel with if they pull back and open up full access to Gaza.

Part the issue is that Hezbollah and Hamas are puppets of Iran and Syria, they're Iran and Syria's methods of attacking Israel by proxy, it's a far bigger issue than just giving back land, and freedoms, because you have to simultaneously deal with the problems of Iran and Syria too. If you truly believe Hamas wouldn't exist without the Israeli position being what it is, then you certainly have no understanding of the politics and people involved.

"oh and Hamas don't stand behind pregnant women. come on, think about it for a moment. how big do you think they are, large enough that the only way you could shoot a fighter behind is to target the womb?"

Ah, I see, and you know how easy it is to watch what you shoot in a warzone because you've played Call of Duty or something right? If you're in a warzone, it's not a "Hamas member stood behind pregnant women face-off" like in the movies, it's combat between buildings, with no fucking idea what's round the corner, what's behind the next wall and so forth, if you get AK47 fire from a window and fire back, there's no possible way to be sure you won't hit a civilian. Similarly there's no possible way you know that that building that just had rockets launched from it's roof doesn't contain civilians. What's the alternative, not fire back and let them kill Israeli civilians instead?

The shirts you refer to were typical military bravado, you think any military world wide doesn't have soldiers making the same jokes? The only difference being of course, that the Israeli soldiers made the mistake of thinking they would be treated with the same standards of every other military. Here's an exercise for you, look at the amount of civilian kills in Iraq, Afghanistan, or an entirely non-Western war like Georgia in recent years, and then try and tell me that civilian casualties inflicted by Israel in it's incursions into Gaza are any worse than any other war, let alone an insurgency war (where any dead militant can be turned into a 'civilian death' propaganda tool simply by taking his rifle/rpg from the scene). You'll find that Israeli civilian kills aren't exactly unusually high, which would be the case if they really did specifically target civilians as per the propaganda.

I think Israel should hand back the Golan Heights, and other annexed territory so that they really do have the moral upperhand, though I suspect they would then get bombarded from the heights by Syria, would still suffer regularly suicide bombings in nightclubs and so forth like they did before they ring-fenced Gaza - notice how that shit doesn't really happen in Israel anymore? the daily suicide bombings? Fact is, those measures are in place, because they work. It's understandable in this context why they do it, because with the heights held, and Gaza ring fenced, they're actually safer than they've ever been.

The problem is, your justification for Israel not being the lesser of two evils is that you don't understand that Hamas, being extremists, would be a problem regardless, and that if Israel really did want to push genocide, then they would be able to rack up far higher civilian kills than they do. You also do not seem to realise that Israeli civilian kills are not disproportionate from many military campaigns, suggesting Israel is doing nothing out of the ordinary when it does carry out military campaigns.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Xest]

Well the real question is, are they Jewish immigrants? Does Mossad have a bias to the Jewish cause?

You may answer no to the latter question, but the point is this, it's a possible explanation as to why Mossad would have no problem using those passports. They are just possible explanations.

People like yourself don't help the cause, I'm certainly not one to blame Mossad or the Jewish state unfairly, and making the insane assertion that I have paranoid fantasies about Mossad is hardly a good way to make people like myself respect the situation. I do respect the problem Israel faces (see my other posts), but it would certainly be naive to assume that Mossad definitely wasn't involved, when the majority of facts suggest they were, even if other facts suggest they may not be.

Frankly also, if Mossad was involved then I'm of the opinion job well done. It's not like the guy that was killed was a nice man that was worthy of a place on this planet going by the amount of innocent civilian lives he's responsible for taking.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cyberax]

"They have similar outcomes (death of civilians) and that is what you are building your case on, but you are ignoring all morality in what produces those outcomes."

What if you use a flamethrower for self-defense, kill 1 gangster and 10 innocent bystanders? Especially, if you had (say) a taser and could have used it without harm for bystanders but with greater personal risk.

And recent assassination is just barbaric (they slowly strangled a helpless man). It's terrorism, pure and simple.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

and there's the strange coincidence of the assassins all using credit cards issued by one bank in the US...controlled by a former mossad special forces agent! http://warincontext.org/2010/02/24/dubai-money-trail-leads-back-to-israel/

Re:It's this kind thing..

[blind biker]

Little correction: not really controlled as much as co-owned, but the point stands. That is, it's not a coincidence.

OTOH:

Citing a report by Al-Quds Al-Arabi, Reuters quoted Hamas official Mahmoud Nasser as saying that Jordanian and Egyptian intelligence agencies had probably tracked Mabhouh prior to his assassination.

I could not find the Reuters article. The quote is from the Jerusalem Post

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

What if you use a flamethrower for self-defense, kill 1 gangster and 10 innocent bystanders? Especially, if you had (say) a taser and could have used it without harm for bystanders but with greater personal risk.

Ignoring the taser, I would have no problem with someone using a flamethrower in self defense and hurting innocent people if the alternative were that the person would be murdered by the gangster.

Taking the taser into account, it's obviously more difficult. I'd have to hear why he didn't use the taser. What is the criminal armed with?

Either way, I understand you're saying that Israel has the capability of using less destructive means to deal with terrorism. I disagree. There's no moral requirement to put yourself at much greater risk (entering enemy territory, dealing with people who hide amongst civilians, and dealing with people who you thought were civilians but morph into terrorists when your back is turned) for the sake of saving a few people. And if there is such a requirement, it rests on both sides -- i.e. the terrorists are more to blame than Israel because they are the ones creating the untenable situation. It's like the Geneva Convention, if you're fighting someone who doesn't honor it, you don't honor it either. Common sense.

And recent assassination is just barbaric (they slowly strangled a helpless man). It's terrorism, pure and simple.

Okay fair enough, but think about this -- in this instance they are using exactly the techniques you want. There was no risk to innocent people. They killed one dude who they knew was a terrorist. And yet you're sitting here complaining about that as well and calling it terrorism. You should examine your statement.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

It's not effective militarily, but it's effective in terms of propaganda. Look at yourself, you are sitting here concerned that Israel bombs schools, but not commenting at all on terrorists who use the schools. Why is that? Why condemn Israel and not terrorists? And if you condemn both, great, but now put forward an argument for why Israel should change its tactics without reciprocation from the other side?

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

I could not find the Reuters article. The quote is from the Jerusalem Post [jpost.com]"

I couldn't find the Reuters article either. But this AP article seems to match, after you spell the name correctly and tune the dial a bit;

Hamas aide: Commander assassinated in Dubai was smuggling weapons to Palestinian areas
By DIAA HADID Associated Press Writer

"GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip (AP) -- The right-hand man of a Hamas leader assassinated in Dubai confirmed Israeli claims that his boss supplied weapons to Palestinian militants, according to an interview transcript released Tuesday.

The aide, Damascus-based Mohammed Nassar, spoke to Hamas' Al Aqsa radio in Gaza."

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

The crucial point however is that only Israel (as the vastly dominant side) has the power to stop this nonsense.

How so? Why does Israel have more power to control the desire and will of its people in wanting to end the terrorist threat from Palestine than Palestine has the power to control its people in wanting to continue attacking Israel? Oh, you think Israel should turn the army against its own people perhaps? Well whatever politician does that won't last long.

Or do you actually mean they have the power to end it by totally crushing Palestine?

I really don't understand your crucial point.

History is only a part of the equation.

Okay but then you should stop putting that in every single argument you make, e.g. talking about Palestinian actions in terms of "reactions" to Israeli aggression. That's history. It's time to leave it out if you are seeking an honest solution, because history can't be changed.

Disparity of power and dignity of those oppressed for so long is now the key element, without acknowledging which nothing will get resolved.

Note how you put "so long" in there, once again bringing in history when you admit it's not key. But here it is, rearing up in your "key element" again.

Anyway, ignoring that, I would also add that cultural identity is a key element. Neither side wants to lose their culture, so any solution like "destroy Israel", "just let all Palestinians become Israeli", or "let Palestine be absorbed by Jordan" is not going to work.

My proposal is to carve out parts of northern Israel (for sea access) and Syria and Jordan and call that Palestine. Give part of Jordan to Israel to make a slightly wider country (seems more practical). Israel and Palestine will both be entirely contiguous and both have sea access.

Before calling that an injustice to Syria/Jordan, remember that these countries were all arbitrarily defined by colonial powers. It's morally correct to adjust those borders in order to fix this severe problem which resulted from that arbitrary decision rather than to suddenly claim the current borders are sacrosanct for no reason and let the problem fester.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Cyberax]

"There's no moral requirement to put yourself at much greater risk (entering enemy territory, dealing with people who hide amongst civilians, and dealing with people who you thought were civilians but morph into terrorists when your back is turned) for the sake of saving a few people. "

Ditto for HAMAS. There's no requirement to minimize civilian casualties for them. It works both ways.

"Okay fair enough, but think about this -- in this instance they are using exactly the techniques you want."

Nope. Not even close. If they kidnapped him, then sued him and then hanged him, I'd be just fine with it. But they use EXACTLY THE SAME tactics as terrorists.

Imagine that tomorrow terrorists will start killing soldiers who are off-duty. Say, with armed drones shooting ricin pellets. Would that be OK?

Definitely no. Yet when Israel does this, it's all OK.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

Ditto for HAMAS. There's no requirement to minimize civilian casualties for them. It works both ways.

No you're deliberately twisting what I said. It's still required to minimize civilian casualties, but not at the cost of putting yourself at "much greater risk" (my words).

Imagine that tomorrow terrorists will start killing soldiers who are off-duty. Say, with armed drones shooting ricin pellets. Would that be OK?

Definitely no. Yet when Israel does this, it's all OK.

Are you kidding? Instead of targeting innocent women and children with rockets being fired haphazardly into neighborhoods and schools? I bet you *anything* that Israel would rather have off-duty soldiers targeted than that.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

If it were a fair fight Israel would have completely dominated them and they would have surrendered and there would be no problem.

No, in reality your idea of "fair" is predicated on the idea that Israel loses, not anything about the manner of fighting, which makes you a bigot.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

whatever specious definition of 'fair' you're proposing obviously implies de facto Jewish superiority. you're tipping your hand here. and while youre revealing your perspective, explain how they are not completely dominated now. and, how does one "surrender" when driven out of one's home? You're saying "they would have all been exterminated by now...if it werent for those meddling goys". "fair' means not handcuffing Israel's manifest appointment with destiny with ridiculous concerns.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

I would also add that cultural identity is a key element. Neither side wants to lose their culture,

you've hit on THE essential point in this conflict. Israelis adamantly want a state for Jews only, but that has never been the goal of the Palestinians. An ethnically pure state does just doesnt work in this world. The solution is obviously full right of return and full reparations and one democratic state for everybody. And since the dream of eradicating them once and for all isn't going to happen, the One State solution is going to happen as sure as the sun rises.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

Huh? What are you talking about? Why don't you read what I said again. "Fair" should not be predicated on one side winning but on the manner of fighting. A fair fight doesn't mean there's a 50/50 shot at winning, or that the good guy wins. It means stuff like "not hitting below the belt" and "not kicking the other guy in the balls while he's not paying attention" and "not having one guy call up 10 friends to help him out." I mean wtf are you talking about? How is it specious to define a fair fight in terms of the manner of fighting rather than the outcome of the fight? You don't make any sense.

The fact that Israel is far dominant militarily means that in a fair fight they would completely dominate the situation and it would be over. In another situation where Israel were weaker, a fair fight would result in them losing.

It's really telling that you simply cannot have this discussion without spouting complete crap. You don't even make a pretense at neutrality. Now tell me about how neutrality is immoral when human rights are being violated or some crap.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

You can't be serious. My original comment intended 'fair' to mean that the Palestinians have equal access to weaponry. You're saying that it's unfair that Palestinians resort to guerilla tactics? Go back and read it; You inserted the notion that what i'm really saying is that I just want Israel to lose, obvious now is that you were projecting your bias on me.

Fact is that I have much more complex feelings about the situation. I am part of a very large and wonderful Jewish family for one thing, so it is not trivial to dismiss Israel and all that it means to them. The final solution in my mind is a single state with any remaining racist zealots of any stripe marginalized and severely punished for any racist utterance. This may seem like 'losing' to a radical Zionist, but most people would call that a major win for Justice and Humanity.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

You can't be serious. My original comment intended 'fair' to mean that the Palestinians have equal access to weaponry.

I misunderstood what you meant. To me, as I said, fair fighting is about how you fight, not what you fight with or how well you do.

You're saying that it's unfair that Palestinians resort to guerilla tactics?

Guerrilla tactics are not the same as terrorism. Check out the Wikipedia page on guerrilla warfare -- "Guerrilla warfare is the irregular warfare and combat in which a small group of combatants use mobile military tactics in the form of ambushes and raids to combat a larger and less mobile formal army."

There's no way you can call having weapons caches in schools a guerrilla tactic, for instance. In fact it's the exact opposite of guerrilla since it advertises their presence in a known, fixed location (rather than a mobile camp) and actually *invites* an attack, in the hopes that a bunch of kids will die and they will get on the news. Or, less cynically, it advertises their location and relies on the humanity of the other side not to attack -- and again, that is not guerrilla.

Fact is that I have much more complex feelings about the situation. I am part of a very large and wonderful Jewish family for one thing, so it is not trivial to dismiss Israel and all that it means to them. The final solution in my mind is a single state with any remaining racist zealots of any stripe marginalized and severely punished for any racist utterance. This may seem like 'losing' to a radical Zionist, but most people would call that a major win for Justice and Humanity.

Your solution sounds great but it's just an ideal without a plan for how to achieve it. Also consider whether it's even possible to achieve. Who would mete out the severe punishments for racist utterances? What happens if the majority is actually racist? (They can't be marginalized by definition.)

The problem with solutions like the one you present is they rely on social changes and the emergence of new social behavior rather than working with ground realities, objective goals, and when possible technical solutions.

BTW I am not Jewish and I don't see the relevance of that either way.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

How so? Why does Israel have more power to control the desire and will of its people in wanting to end the terrorist threat from Palestine than Palestine has the power to control its people in wanting to continue attacking Israel? Oh, you think Israel should turn the army against its own people perhaps? Well whatever politician does that won't last long.

No, Israel has the power because 1) it is the side that profited handsomely from its aggression and is thus the side that not only must but is capable of offering economic reparations 2) it is the side that controls militarily all aspects of lives of the Arabs in the Ghettos including all movements of goods and people 3) it is the side that unilaterally imposed and arbitrarily enforced those conditions on the Arabs, mostly employing brute force with what can only be described as religious-supremacist rationale as the only "justification".

In contrast, the only options available to the Palestinian Arabs at present are: submit and capitulate, thus legitimizing their de-facto status as "sub-humans" "infesting" "rightfully Jewish lands" or fight to the bitter end employing pathetic methods such as rickety home made rockets and suicide bombs, ever more desperately expecting miracles (hence the ever increasing influence of religious loons who promise them) because everything else they tried has failed. So its death of their identity and homeland no matter what choices they take. Most also apparently have chosen to go down with the ship rather then be "remade" into something else.

This is the disparity of power I spoke of.

I really don't understand your crucial point.

See above.

Okay but then you should stop putting that in every single argument you make, e.g. talking about Palestinian actions in terms of "reactions" to Israeli aggression. That's history. It's time to leave it out if you are seeking an honest solution, because history can't be changed.

I did not say that history does not matter, only that it is a part of the equation. Current state of affairs was arrived at by historical events, pretending that it is not so is by definition designed to dis-enfranchise one side or the other in any uneven conflict (and in this particular case it is patently obvious that it would be the Arabs getting the shaft). That is why any proposals involving "starting from blank slate" are inherently disingenuous and suspect.

My proposal is to carve out parts of northern Israel (for sea access) and Syria and Jordan and call that Palestine. Give part of Jordan to Israel to make a slightly wider country (seems more practical). Israel and Palestine will both be entirely contiguous and both have sea access. Before calling that an injustice to Syria/Jordan, remember that these countries were all arbitrarily defined by colonial powers.

Oh good grief!

Let me get this straight, so you want to "solve" a problem caused by Western meddling full of self-serving and arrogant actions of colonial powers who summarily dismissed any and all opinions of Arabs who lived in these areas, instead treating them like cattle, to be shuffled around, "traded" to newly formed "countries", all of it in favor of well-connected European and American Jewry .... by more arrogant Western meddling arbitrarily ignoring any and all opinions of the local "inferiors", to be moved like cattle, traded and bargained away like pawns on a chess-board and resettled from their ancestral lands at a whim of "those who know better", "for the Arabs own good" of course, right?

By Jove, that "White Man's Burden" must be getting heavier and heavier...

Re:It's this kind thing..

[bstender]

Your solution sounds great but it's just an ideal without a plan for how to achieve it. Also consider whether it's even possible to achieve. Who would mete out the severe punishments for racist utterances? What happens if the majority is actually racist? (They can't be marginalized by definition.)
The problem with solutions like the one you present is they rely on social changes and the emergence of new social behavior rather than working with ground realities, objective goals, and when possible technical solutions.

Plenty of people argued that the blacks would never be integrated into US society, same in So. Africa, and though full integration is far from finished in either place, that is the future. the alternative is what you see, an atrocity that will get worse and anything is better than that. Social behavior changes, especially when all of the benefits start to appear. I like to think the average Israeli or Palestinian is not an irredeemable nutjob, but rather a human being trying to raise their family and enjoy a decent life.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Mashiki]

No they(hamas and family) turn around and breed their kids to kill everyone else. Glad to see your antisemitism runs deep, let me know when you figure out why they wear the t-shirts. I think I said this already, worldly travel do some good.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Eli Gottlieb]

Well the real question is, are they Jewish immigrants?

The overwhelming majority of immigrants to Israel are.

Does Mossad have a bias to the Jewish cause?

Which of several thousand causes championed by Jews are you labeling "the Jewish cause"?

Frankly also, if Mossad was involved then I'm of the opinion job well done.

And I'm of the opinion that if Mossad did this, they fucked up terribly by getting caught on tape and being identified.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Xest]

"The overwhelming majority of immigrants to Israel are."

Indeed, but that still doesn't answer my question however.

"Which of several thousand causes championed by Jews are you labeling "the Jewish cause"?"

That of protecting the Jewish faith, possibly preferentially, and possibly at the expense of people of other faiths.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Eli Gottlieb]

That of protecting the Jewish faith, possibly preferentially, and possibly at the expense of people of other faiths.

Which means what, exactly? How does one protect the Jewish faith? Which sect of the Jewish faith? For whom? From whom?

This is all very vague.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

It's a little late to reply so you'll probably never see this but..

No, Israel has the power because

"Israel" is not a single person with a clear will, it's a bunch of people who want different things. By definition it does not have the power to do things it doesn't want to do, and that was my point. Israel has no more power than Palestine in that regard.

Current state of affairs was arrived at by historical events, pretending that it is not so is by definition designed to dis-enfranchise one side or the other in any uneven conflict (and in this particular case it is patently obvious that it would be the Arabs getting the shaft).

That's demonstrably wrong, because I proposed just such a solution and my design was not to consciously dis-enfranchise one side. I think both sides would benefit more by stopping the violence than either side would lose by having to change around their borders.

Let me get this straight, so you want to "solve" a problem caused by Western meddling ... by more arrogant Western meddling

My reasoning is that two wrongs in quick succession may be less wrong overall than one wrong that is dragged out for decades upon decades. Feel free to criticize it in terms of its likelihood of success, but don't bother trying to label me a racist because I'm not. Your entire paragraph added nothing to the discussion except to make it clear that you will happily dismiss things for the wrong reasons, which only debases yourself.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Max Littlemore]

Being against islam is as anti-semitic as being against judeism, idiot. Being anti israel is not anti semitic at all. People crying anti semitism when someone critisizes israel makes me sick. It turns the deaths of so many over the last millenium into a cheap political point. You are disgusting and your cheapening of such a major contention in European history is anti-semitic.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[Max Littlemore]

My point is that zionism is an extremist ideology that gave rise to modern terrorism. there are extremist groups in all countries including that last mob to rule the white house. Israel behaves in a consistently criminal manner and just because they have the facade of being a ligitimate state and freind of the USA does not make them any less of a terrorist org, IMO.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

"Israel" is not a single person with a clear will, it's a bunch of people who want different things.

Oh give it up. When one talks about "Israel", "France", "USA" etc. doing something, it is clear that it is a reference to the people in power in these countries and not the abstract entities of "nations" themselves. And in the case of governments, single unified will is the usual outcome, be it a dictatorial decree or a result of a democratic vote.

By definition it does not have the power to do things it doesn't want to do, and that was my point.

Rarely do I get to see a more convoluted pretzel of cognitive dissonance.

So we should let all the serial murderers out because, as per your brilliant logic, they "do not want" to stop slashing prostitutes with machetes and therefore they, poor sods, are "powerless" to stop it, right?

Israel has no more power than Palestine in that regard.

Right, so the schoolyard bully has "no more" power than the nerd kid he is beating up for his lunch money as the fight can be stopped two ways, the bully can stop being a thieving jackass or the nerd can cough up his lunch money! Therefore, by your genius deduction, they are equals! Ah the glorious "equality" of power, Israel style!

That's demonstrably wrong, because I proposed just such a solution and my design was not to consciously dis-enfranchise one side. I think both sides would benefit more by stopping the violence than either side would lose by having to change around their borders.

Except of course in this entire disingenuous proposal the wholly arbitrary "changing of borders" as dictated by The Oh So Wise White Men from High Upon The Mountain would inevitably lead to far more violence - this time involving Jordan, Lebanon and Syria as additional direct, as opposed to merely passively hostile, combatants!

My reasoning is that two wrongs in quick succession may be less wrong overall than one wrong that is dragged out for decades upon decades. Feel free to criticize it in terms of its likelihood of success, but don't bother trying to label me a racist because I'm not.

You are definitely a Supremacist. Racism may or may not play a role in that, but that is largely irrelevant. You are a Supremacist because you believe that one group of nations (Western ones in this case) is somehow more entitled to making decisions for denizens of other nations of a different cultural and ethnic background without any concern whatsoever about the opinions of those to be so treated. And all of that in a situation where one side in the conflict is much closer to your cultural background (i.e. Israel which is nearly wholly settled by people recently arrived from Europe and the US).

This is not much different from what Germans were doing, believing that their "superior" culture was somehow a justification for subjugation of all "inferior" others, "for their own good" - with the exception of Jews whom they designated the Bogeymen #1. Racial elements were added to the Nazi doctrine merely as an explanation for that "superiority".

Your entire paragraph added nothing to the discussion except to make it clear that you will happily dismiss things for the wrong reasons, which only debases yourself.

Rejecting Supremacist arguments and philosophies out of hand is hardly "debasing oneself".

Re:It's this kind thing..

[hazah]

My point was that "reparations" are not a solution. As the saying goes, give them a finger, they will bite the hand off.

Displacing millions of people again is not a solution. That will still leave millions of people quite pissed and potent to violence.

The only viable next step is to put down the weapons and co-exist. Period.

I'm quite sure that only one side is ready for it. Asking that side to just give everything up, get up and move because their grandparents may have wronged or did something to their own grandparents is naive, childish, and down right primitive, as it goes against everything a civilized thinking human being would want. Its that tribal way of thinking that is tearing the middle east apart. The sad thing is, is that tribal conflict isn't limited to Israel, as Arabs, in general, have a hard time getting along with other Arabs on many other issues. It's not exactly unheard of them massacring each other just the same.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[stdarg]

Oh give it up. When one talks about "Israel", "France", "USA" etc. doing something, it is clear that it is a reference to the people in power in these countries and not the abstract entities of "nations" themselves. And in the case of governments, single unified will is the usual outcome, be it a dictatorial decree or a result of a democratic vote.

That conflicts with what you said earlier, which is what I was replying to. The majority of people in Israel, a democratic country, seem to want Palestine to remain contained as long as Palestinians engage in terrorism against Israel. So again, how does "Israel" have the power to stop wanting that and thus change the situation? See the problem in what you said earlier in light of your revelations about the democratic voice?

Except of course in this entire disingenuous proposal the wholly arbitrary "changing of borders" as dictated by The Oh So Wise White Men from High Upon The Mountain would inevitably lead to far more violence - this time involving Jordan, Lebanon and Syria as additional direct, as opposed to merely passively hostile, combatants!

Damn, good one, you really zinged me by calling me a wise white man. And being so sarcastic. Great argument.

You are definitely a Supremacist. Racism may or may not play a role in that, but that is largely irrelevant. You are a Supremacist because you believe that one group of nations (Western ones in this case) is somehow more entitled to making decisions for denizens of other nations of a different cultural and ethnic background without any concern whatsoever about the opinions of those to be so treated.

You're the supremacist here. Apparently white men are not as qualified as others to opine on international conflicts?

Rejecting Supremacist arguments and philosophies out of hand is hardly "debasing oneself".

You have debased yourself by talking to someone on the internet, who you don't know, making all sorts of negative assumptions, and never presenting a coherent argument (let alone being friendly or extending good faith) regarding the facts or what I said.

You did have one reasonable fragment of a line in this post, mixed with racist garbage, about the passive hostiles becoming direct combatants. I would respond to that because I think it's correct but can be weighed against alternatives, but I don't see the point anymore.

Anyways, enjoy your life of hating white people who dare to stick their noses into "your" international business.

Re:It's this kind thing..

[IgnoramusMaximus]

The majority of people in Israel, a democratic country, seem to want Palestine to remain contained as long as Palestinians engage in terrorism against Israel.

Which of course is the very cause of the "terrorism" - by the US/Israeli definition of "terrorism", Polish and French Resistance movements were a bunch of "terrorists" too. Incidentally, "terroristen" was also the actual term used by the occupying Nazis ...

So again, how does "Israel" have the power to stop wanting that and thus change the situation?

Israel has the "power" in the very same way all the other belligerent bullies have ... the Israelis can simply come to their senses and do something sane for a change. Their ability (and thus "power") to do so is far greater then that of the Palestinians simply because of their relative military position, finances etc. This is all pretty damn obvious, but like any good Israeli apologist you instead choose to engage in disingenuous (and blatantly erroneous) hair-splitting of the semantics of the word "power". Anything really to avoid facing the simple truth. Then again, this is par for the course ...

Damn, good one, you really zinged me by calling me a wise white man. And being so sarcastic. Great argument.

I also note that you've avoided facing the (again pretty obvious) consequences of your "proposals", which I was highlighting through all that sarcasm.

You're the supremacist here. Apparently white men are not as qualified as others to opine on international conflicts?

Again, more sophistry. The difference is that your "opinions" all involve enforcing brutal dictates on one (ethnically and culturally different from yours) side of the conflict without any regard for the opinions of those to be so "helped" by you and the likes of you. The reference to "white men" is historical, as it is the rather very white men who instigated the whole fiasco by first invading the area (the pastry-white nobles of the British Empire) and then the white men (or to be exact countries governed by them at the time - note the lovely admiration for this plan in the whole of Middle East and other Muslim nations) of the 1947 UN General Assembly enhanced the glorious cluster-fuck exponentially by installing the brand spanking new country for European Jewry there. And so in this case "white men" are seen (and justifiably so) as the least qualified to be helpful ... particularly in the form of more draconian mass purges and resettlements at gun-point which seems to be your favorite (and apparently only) strategy.

You have debased yourself by talking to someone on the internet, who you don't know, making all sorts of negative assumptions

There is no need for any "assumptions" .. your words define you pretty accurately.

and never presenting a coherent argument (let alone being friendly or extending good faith) regarding the facts or what I said.

You would not recognize a coherent argument if you tripped over one and broke all your teeth...

Also how one can propose mass pogroms and deportations and expect "friendliness" for it from strangers eludes me ... perhaps you revolve in exclusively Zionist circles and thus you are so used to the echo-chamber effect that the real world comes as a shock to you.

Anyways, enjoy your life of hating white people who dare to stick their noses into "your" international business.

Right. Enjoy burning those straw-men. This and sophistry seem to be your favorite hobbies ...

Obscure the details.

[deniable]

I thought that the details had been obscured by the government when it made the release. It appears that the ABC and Seven blurred the important numbers. Others broadcast the details without editing. I thought we had enough of these on Media Watch last year to teach them a lesson.

Re:Obscure the details.

[Anonymous Coward]

> I thought we had enough of these on Media Watch last year to teach them a lesson.

LOL, this is the for-profit media you are talking about there.

Re:Obscure the details.

[jamesswift]

Blurring often isn't enough to remove the information.

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/01/how_to_recover.html

Re:Obscure the details.

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

I thought that the details had been obscured by the government when it made the release. It appears that the ABC and Seven blurred the important numbers. Others broadcast the details without editing. I thought we had enough of these on Media Watch last year to teach them a lesson.

That's not particularly foolproof - after all if the stations have to blur out the numbers that means that the materials that were released to the stations (and thus presumably to the public at large) weren't blurred out. So, it helps reduce but in no way eliminates the further spread of the info, but the real source of the problem is whoever gave the stations the information in first place.

Re:Obscure the details.

[deniable]

That was my point. I only saw them on the ABC and the details were redacted. I wrongly assumed this was done at the source. Instead it was left to the media to protect these peoples' privacy.

schliz

[Anonymous Coward]

schliz, kdawson: are you absolutely sure that this is public scrutiny's fault?

Sound familiar?

[mederbil]

"But although the department's site has the extra step of asking for a mother's maiden name and guarantor's name (presumably, the person who signed the passport photo and application), some implementations of Edentiti used by financial institutions simply check that the passport is valid and details are correct based on date of birth, full name and place of birth."

Sounds a lot like how Sarah Palin's email got hacked to me. Asking security questions has proven to fail when someone wants someone's information.

Re:Sound familiar?

[toastar]

The Trick to security questions is to use a secondary password that doesn't match the question. Who would ever guess my mothers maiden name is desk?

Re:Sound familiar?

[LostCluster]

That's not exactly the best idea, because you have to associate question+account=codeword... and that's a lot harder than remembering the true answer.

Re:Sound familiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

me ... now.

Re:Sound familiar?

[pentalive]

We all would now.

Re:Sound familiar?

[MillionthMonkey]

My first pet's name was smegma.

Re:Sound familiar?

[Opportunist]

I got into a heated argument with my bank's "phone assistant" a while ago. You see, to ensure that I'm really me, they ask some "additional information" about my account when I phone in to make a transfer. Actually a quite convenient service when their webpage is down, as usual.

The security questions include such things as telling them some of my recent withdrawals or a certain regular payment (like phone bill or such), or my personal bank adviser (well, as personal as "the guy who created my account" can be...). The only problem: All those informations can be gained from a bank statement. Which I could get printed at any time with nothing but my ATM card, without additional security pin.

So if you steal a wallet and find an ATM card... I think you can take it from here.

Re:Sound familiar?

[Opportunist]

My mother's maiden name cannot be found in a dictionary. It's similar to Zwt1qt'lNy. Hey, don't discriminate me just 'cause you cannot pronounce my mother's maiden name! Racist bastard!

Re:Sound familiar?

[Anonymous Coward]

As long as they log and tape the call, preserve it for a while, are willing to reverse the transactions if they're fraudulent, and pursue the actor responsible for such fraudulent transactions, i'm fine w/ it.

Re:Sound familiar?

[I confirm I'm not a]

She's Qwghlmian? ;-)

Recent Events

[hduff]

Recent IT events have suggested that the Australian government is below par as far as their critical thinking skills go, so this is a surprise?

Re:Recent Events

[LostCluster]

Seems like copying the Americans' homework assignments aren't doing them much good anymore.

Re:Recent Events

[bertoelcon]

Recent IT events have suggested that the Australian government is below par as far as their critical thinking skills go, so this is a surprise?

Not very far below par.

Re:Recent Events

[AHuxley]

Their NSA skills are loved by the USA.
That part works.
Their domestic 'tap' all and sort at a federal packet level works.
A small population with a few pipes in and out.
Below that is Unix trained, MS using junk on a low budget trying to make a faith based web reality.
Passports should pass a points system, with face to face security :)

Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, who the hell knows. There are a lot of folks out there who hate Hamas, including the Palestinian Authority!!! But there's no evidence it was Israel behind this. All your comments are just reiterating accusations by Dubai. Maybe they were behind it, but no one posting here knows.

Besides, all these comments about Israel and Hamas deserving each other miss a HUGE point: moral authority. Suppose it was Israel - then it was in retaliation for killing two Israelis!! What was the basis for Hamas killing the Israelis? Their mere existence!!

Or do you put murderers and law enforcement killing murderers on equal moral grounds too?

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Please, stop trying to distort the situation.

Hamas has its own particular ideology and I want to make it clear I don't support their methods.

But to say that their basis for attacking Israel is merely its existence is a distortion. There is legitimate beef on the part of the Palestinians against Israel for the loss of land and livelihood under the Israeli occupation. You and I can sit here and debate whether or not their actions are appropriate or understandable, but it boils down to an entire population of people who live under the rule of a foreign occupier and it is quite clear that the occupation has not had a positive impact on them.

We talk righteously about Jews who were forced into ghettos and then violently rebelled against their oppressors but then on the other hand when it involves Arabs against Jewish occupiers, its all of the sudden an immoral thing to resist that oppression.

Re:Not Israel

[Lehk228]

on average, israel kills 10 palestinians for every israeli killed by palestinians, drilling down further, for every Israeli child killed, 40 Palestinian children are killed.

you can't claim the moral high ground while using military ordinance against occupied residential structures.

I have seen photos of the damage caused by each sides weapons, a qassam rocket will typically blow a hole in a wall and hurt or kill anyone nearby in that room, while an israeli airstrike will level an apartment complex.

Re:Not Israel

[MikShapi]

Israelis don't level apartment complexes arbitrarily. They do so when the apartment complexes in question get used in Palestinian attacks, or on the rare occurrence of a high-profile ticking-timebomb blood-on-hands type of persona rearing his head in a known place at a known time.

The Qassam "holes in walls", on the other hand, are conducted randomly, by weapons with very primitive targeting, into the heart of civilian population centers, with no other purpose than to harm civilians.

You have to decide whether you're handing out points for who has the better technology (bigger bombs/targeting systems) or who has the better ethical/moral; base.

It's not about the size of the hole in the wall. It's about whether you had a valid military target in your sights when you pulled the trigger.

And before we start a discussion on (Israel) firing on ambulances/UN schools et,remember the Geneva convention and wartime rules are only applicable so long as both sides respect them. When one side ignores them, they become a worthless piece of paper.

You will respect wartime rules and won't shoot at *my* ambulances, civilian shelters, schools etc, so long as I respect the same wartime rules and not misuse my ambulances, civilian shelters, schools etc.

If I get caught several times with my ambulances smuggling weapons and bombs, and it ends up costing you lives (and your government public criticism from your angry voters), you'll throw the wartime rules out the window same as everyone else who has had to face a similar situation ever did, and treat my ambulances as potential weapon-carrying-trucks (which, I remind you, in our example, they *are*).

Unfortunately (mainly to the Palestinian and Lebanese populations), the methods of the Iranian proxies Hammas and Hezbollah openly ignore wartime law. And when they dont respect it, it would be naive and totally unrealistic to expect their adversary (Israel in these two cases) to respect those same wartime laws.

Re:Not Israel

[MikShapi]

Then why does the Hammas have Israel's entire land on its flag? Why does it continuously call for Israel's full destruction?

You have a valid point, there is a very justified side to the Palestinian struggle for independence. Only problem is that organizations like the Hammas deliberately blur the line between the bits that are justified, and the bits that are hate-mongering, impossible loony ideas (entirely displace a 7-million modern nation with access to money, all the technology it needs a big army? yeh, right) that are entirely outside any acceptable modern ethics/morals profile.

Re:Not Israel

[SQL Error]

But to say that their basis for attacking Israel is merely its existence is a distortion.

Distortion? It's their self-defined raison d'être.

Re:Not Israel

[AK Marc]

I have seen photos of the damage caused by each sides weapons, a qassam rocket will typically blow a hole in a wall and hurt or kill anyone nearby in that room, while an israeli airstrike will level an apartment complex.

When Hamas stops launching rockets from the roof of apartment complexes, then there will be fewer apartment complexes hit.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

And before we start a discussion on (Israel) firing on ambulances/UN schools et,remember the Geneva convention and wartime rules are only applicable so long as both sides respect them. When one side ignores them, they become a worthless piece of paper.

I don't expect terrorists to uphold the Geneva Convention, but countries should.

Re:Not Israel

[bloobloo]

Sorry, did you seriously just claim that it's ok for Israel to attack the ICRC and the UN because Hamas doesn't follow the rules either?

Re:Not Israel

[Ma8thew]

Then why does the Hammas have Israel's entire land on its flag?

Maybe because they're pissed off? Try living under siege, seeing your land encroached by illegal settlers and your people's homes bulldozed and see if you're still reasonable towards your oppressors. I don't agree with Hamas's methods, but I can see why they do what they do.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

I like how modern ethics/morals dictate that if you have a lot of people and money, you're more important than those who don't.

Re:Not Israel

[qc_dk]

Then why does the Hammas have Israel's entire land on its flag?

Maybe because they're pissed off? Try living under siege, seeing your land encroached by illegal settlers and your people's homes bulldozed and see if you're still reasonable towards your oppressors. I don't agree with Hamas's methods, but I can see why they do what they do.

What other methods can they use? Conventional warfare against a US-backed Israel? They might as well stab themselves in the balls.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Then why does the Hammas have Israel's entire land on its flag?

Why does Israel have Palestine's entire land on its maps? For example, look at the first google hit under "Israel weather".

Re:Not Israel

[Ma8thew]

I think that Hamas's best bet is not violence. If they can only be seen as a passive Gandhi style resistance it might go a long way to improving their image in the US. Frankly, their armed struggle doesn't have much effect anyway. Also, they do a lot of things that are pretty bad for PR. For instance, arresting Western journalists does not endear you to the people who might be able to help your cause.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

lol, asperger much?

it pleases me no end to know that you're never going to get properly laid. :)

Re:Not Israel

[bcmm]

But there's no evidence it was Israel behind this. All your comments are just reiterating accusations by Dubai. Maybe they were behind it, but no one posting here knows.

The official Israeli line appears to be "we won't deny we did it, but there's no evidence it was us". From where I'm standing, that sounds a lot like an admission.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Point 1: Where are you getting these 10:1, 40:1 ratios?

Point 2: If you try to fight a big tough guy, don't you expect to get your arse handed to you?

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

What part of "foreign occupation" don't you understand?

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

you can't claim the moral high ground while using military ordinance against occupied residential structures.

It is asshats like yourself who in the pursuit of some ridiculous moral equivalance who are the real problems. The terms in war are simple - survival; Israel has been under continuous attack by the Arab world for all it's life, and as a group Jews have been under attack by the same for over a thousand years. Just because they steal someone else's name (Palestinian is actually the term for the Jews living there during the Brit's reign), and just because they voted their terrorists into power (ie:Democracy) doesn't change what they are.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas has its own particular ideology and I want to make it clear I don't support their methods.

But to say that their basis for attacking Israel is merely its existence is a distortion.

Absolute lies. Hamas is an Islamic supremacist organization which demands the supremacy of Islam over Jews (and Christians, Hindus, etc). Go and read the Hamas charter for Hamas' own words. Here are some interesting bits.

From the preamble:

Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it

Article 1:

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam.

Article 6:

It strives to raise the banner of Allah over every inch of Palestine,

Article 7:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews (killing the Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Muslim).

Article 8:

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Article 11:

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Muslim generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up.

Article 13:

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement.

There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

You are correct that the Palestinians have a legitimate beef. They do not, however, have a legitimate approach or legitimate goals. Israel has made peace with everyone who has been willing, at great sacrifice (e.g., they gave 2/3 of their land mass, which contained the country's only oil fields, to Egypt in exchange for a piece of paper stating that Egypt recognized Israel's right to exist). If the Palestinian leadership wanted peace with Israel, it would have happened. But they do not. The charter of the Palestinian Liberation Organization calls, to this day, for the liquidation of the "Zionist entity." In 2000, Ehud Barak offered Yasser Arafat everything he wanted, including half of Jerusalem, except for the "right of return." Arafat, at the last minute, said no. The "right of return" (by the way, do the Jews have a right to return to the Arab countries they fled from?) means the end of the democratic, Jewish state of Israel, based on demographics alone. Ultimately, that is what they have always been after.

Re:Not Israel

[stdarg]

So to summarize, you don't support their methods, but "it boils down to" you debating that they are appropriate or understandable. Cool.

We talk righteously about Jews who were forced into ghettos and then violently rebelled against their oppressors

WTF are you talking about? We talk about how the Jews were forced into ghettos *and then put into death camps where they were starved to death or simply exterminated with poison gas*. Are you really just forgetting that part? If Jews had just been rounded up and arrested in WWII, well that's bad and all, but it would be a hell of a lot better than the Holocaust!

And when did Jews violently rebel en masse? Do you even know anything about WWII? A lot of Israeli philosophy today is based on the fact that NOT violently resisting was a fatal error.

but then on the other hand when it involves Arabs against Jewish occupiers

Duh and are Arabs being exterminated by Jews?

Re:Not Israel

[stdarg]

How about surrendering? Could they use that conventional method? You know, the one that has been used in war for thousands of years? Hey the English surrendered to the Americans, and guess what, England is still around. The French surrendered to the Germans, and they're still around. The Germans surrendered to the Allies, and they're still around. SURRENDER IS A VALID TECHNIQUE.

Look, "freedom fighter" is a catchy name that everyone including terrorists wants to co-opt, but if you're fighting for a cause that's hurting your own citizens much more than what "the enemy" is doing to you, you're doing it wrong.

Re:Not Israel

[dlgeek]

All countries use statements like this when it comes to secret military and intelligence operations. If you say anything other than "no comment" to some operations, then when you say "no comment" to the ones you did do, everyone will know it was you.

Re:Not Israel

[stdarg]

you can't claim the moral high ground while using military ordinance against occupied residential structures.

Cool so in the direct conflict neither side has the moral high ground. How about in the goals of the conflict? One side goes for extermination of the infidels, the other goes for cessation of violence without extermination. There is a moral high ground there.

Re:Not Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

Being pissed off isn't an excuse for anything unless you wish to argue that Hamas is innocent by reason of insanity.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

Does Hamas really 'continuously call for Israel's full destruction' ?

Hamas is not a coherent organisation with a single mindset, something which most people conveniently forget. Basically any angry palestinian can become part of the 'Hamas cause', and so there are all kinds of opinions thrown around by wildly different sections of Hamas - the smart ones, the political ones, the violent ones, and the plain loony ones. There is no point in holding evidence of some junior member's rhetoric against the entire group. If you look at the official statements released by the senior members of Hamas, for quite some years now they have been agreeing to a 'long-term ceasefire' where Israel and Palestine can co-exist together. However Israel always seems to disrupt peace talks when they swing this way, resorting to popular rhetoric such as 'they call for Israel's full destruction.' Your facts are wrong, but of course, if everyone keeps repeating a lie, it seems like the truth to many people.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

(Not OP)

Make no mistake, HAMAS is a brutal terrorist organization undeserving of the power that they've been accorded in Palestinian society, motivated as often by irrational and racist hatred for their enemies as by anything noble. Before we allow that reality to cause us to support the strategy of territorial conquest being implemented by Israel against the Palestinians though, consider that HAMAS only came into being in the 1980s after nearly two decades of military annexation of Palestinian territory. Also consider that most Palestinians say that they support a two-state solution, by implication supporting Israel's existence when the threat it poses to their statehood's formation is removed.

And before heaping admiration on this assassination, we should consider the context in which it occurred: more than a year into a HAMAS ceasefire; Israeli obstinacy in the face of American and Palestinian demands to halt construction of settlements and begin earnest negotiations; a movement that has been dubbed "the peaceful intifada": resistance comprised of marches and protests; a dramatic reduction in attacks against Israel.

Israel's resolve to harm it's enemies is and has never been in serious question. What has been, and continues to be of pressing concern is whether or not Israel has an equal resolve to bring about peace by taking the difficult steps that lie ahead at the negotiating table.

Re:Not Israel

[Ma8thew]

Desperate people do desperate things, and the things Hamas does are no worse (perhaps less worse) than what the Israelis are doing. Admittedly, not an excuse for doing bad things, but certainly explains why they're doing them. Like I say, imagine yourself a Palestinian living in the Gaza Strip.

Re:Not Israel

[MikShapi]

I assure you, Israelis are just as pissed off.

Busses with 20 kids onboard blowing up, Discotheque bombings that kill dozens of teenage kids... Israel had its share of pain.

Are you suggesting their pain exonerates them?

Re:Not Israel

[Ma8thew]

According to the Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs for the occupied Palestinian territory (a UN body) 1754 Palestinians have been killed since 2005 (excluding the recent Gaza war, vs. 117 Israelis. In the Gaza war 773 Palestinian civilians were killed. Israelis are free to leave their country, Gazans are imprisoned in theirs. The sources of employment are drying up in Gaza as Israel prevents many supplies entering the territory, including the building supplies needed to reconstruct the many factories that Israel bombed. So I would say that Palestinians go through a lot more pain than Israelis. Would you rather be a Palestinian civilian or an Israeli? Not much of a contest is it?

Re:Not Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

But to say that their basis for attacking Israel is merely its existence is a distortion.

Then why do they claim that as their basis for attacking?

Re:Not Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

The part where Jews are foreigners in the land of our origins.

Re:Not Israel

[ChromeAeonium]

Personally, I don't think that's much of an argument, but there is a much better one. Really, I don't think it matters who lived there once, or when, or whatever. What matters is who's making their homes there now. I'm American, and technically, my land was once brutally stolen from one tribe or another of Native Americans. If one of them now showed up at my doorstep and demanded his land beck, I'll tell him to bugger off, and if he took violent action against me I'd be well within my right to defend myself, because regardless of how things went down in the past, this is my home now. I think same applies to Israel. I don't know much about the formation of Israel, and I don't quite buy those stories about unprovoked land grabs and stealing homes from Palestinians, but either way, people are living and dying and making their home there now. It's hard to argue that that doesn't make it their home now.

I'm not saying that Israel is perfect of that the Palestinians are all bad or anything like that, but before any other issues can be addressed, the assholes need to accept that the country and people of Israel have a right to be there & defend themselves if need be and stop with the offensives.

Re:Not Israel

[Eli Gottlieb]

Well sure, except that to people like the AC accepting that Israel has a right to be there now means accepting a "foreign occupation" of Palestinian land.

Since I'm Jewish (and fiercely Zionist) and oppose the occupation of the West Bank, I chose to object to the "foreign" bit rather than the other bit.

Re:Not Israel

[bstender]

Ghandi:

"Though violence is not lawful, when it is offered in self-defence or for the defence of the defenseless, it is an act of bravery far better than cowardly submission. "

"My creed of nonviolence is an extremely active force. It has no room for cowardice or even weakness. There is hope for a violent man to be some day non-violent, but there is none for a coward. I have, therefore, said more than once....that, if we do not know how to defend ourselves, our women and our places of worship by the force of suffering, i.e., nonviolence, we must, if we are men, be at least able to defend all these by fighting. "

"I have been repeating over and over again that he who cannot protect himself or his nearest and dearest or their honour by nonviolently facing death may and ought to do so by violently dealing with the oppressor. He who can do neither of the two is a burden. He has no business to be the head of a family. He must either hide himself, or must rest content to live for ever in helplessness and be prepared to crawl like a worm at the bidding of a bully. "

May the fierce resistance of the Palestinians never fade.

Re:Not Israel

[Anonymous Coward]

no that's efficiency.

Re:Not Israel

[Ma8thew]

The rocket attacks by Hamas do not improve security for Gazans, it is to their detriment. Hamas militants took over civilian buildings during the Gaza War (indeed, so did Israel), endangering their occupants.

Re:Not Israel

[MikShapi]

>> Not much of a contest is it?
(emphasis mine)
And therein lies my point. You see it as some form of contest. A "whoever hurts the most gets moral high-ground and becomes above-any-meaninful-criticism"

I call you a hypocrite. If it was YOUR toddlers that were blown up for having done nothing to anyone, you'd be singing a different tune.

Here's the real deal: BOTH sides hurt. If you say "whoever hurts the most gets a 007 license to go and kill the other's civilians and we legitimize it and call it "understandable", then you become a direct contributor to prolonging the conflict.

Both sides hurt, to various degrees.
Note I'm not arguing the point that the palestinians hurt more. I'm arguing the point that they're above harsh criticism of the hammas for having shed any semblance of human morals/ethics.

Re:Not Israel

[MikShapi]

If some words in the Geneva convention would allow perpetrators to wheel a bomb into the WTC in NY, I doubt the us should respect the Geneva convention and allow it to be wheeled in.

I'd argue that at that point the US should not follow the Geneva convention, but re-evaluate it.

Hezbollah smuggled ordance in ambulances. Hammas had "pregnant" women hide bombs (the kind you strap on and detonate, along with yourself, in a mall) under their clothes, as well as use ambulances on multiple occasions. Both organizations used schools, appartment blocks, UN compoundsas a source of mortar/rocket fire.

When you're Israel, and you SEE fire coming out of [name-your-geneva-outlawed-source-here], and that fire -is killing your civillians-, you go and eradicate the source. And if that source is a school, so be it. All you can do is try to be careful.

Unfortunately, armchair critics such as yourself cant really grasp the full meaning of "we need to make the incoming fire stop" and delve on shoulds and shouldnt's.

When my kid's bedroom gets bombed, I expect my government to make it stop, not come back and say "we can't. they're using their civilians as shields".

If it's the life of my kid or the life of theirs, so be it. It'll be theirs.

Re:Not Israel

[bcmm]

Everyone does this when asked "is so-and-so an agent", or "do you operate in such-and-such a country". "Did you organised the murder of so-and-so" is a different matter.

They really Polished off that Hamas guy

[Viadd]

Also implicated in the assassination was Prawo Jazdy.

What does ID have to do with your checking account

[Coward Anonymous]

Slowly we lose sight of how a nationally recognized ID was not always required to do mundane things like opening a checking account.
Australia (like many other Western nations) is slowly becoming a police state. That somebody's identity card was used to assassinate someone in the middle east is not the problem here.

Re:What does ID have to do with your checking acco

[LordLucless]

I'm Australian, and don't have a passport. I've also had a number of bank accounts in my life. To open an account, you need proof of identity. There's a whole list of things that can satisfy this - driver's license, passport, birth certificate, etc. There's hardly a unified ID system.

Besides, you think fraud is bad now, try it when there's no way to uniquely identify people.

(p7us one Informative)

[Anonymous Coward]

Thmeo de RRadt, one Practical purposes

Re:What does ID have to do with your checking acco

[Barny]

Funnily enough, you only need that ID when initially opening your business with a bank, if you continue to patronise their business you will likely need nothing more than your keycard and a bit of easily obtainable information to open accounts, loans, etc.

In fact, I organised, established and paid off a personal loan with the National Australia Bank without even owning a piece of primary ID (photographic) "just sign here and here...", that deficit in my own recognition paperwork has since been rectified of course.

sex with 4 -troll

[Anonymous Coward]

whole 4as lost

Seriously. Comments, please.

[Anonymous Coward]

Did you know that Paula Abdul made a "sex tape" where she's doing the "bouncy bouncy" on top of a enormous black cock with giant hairy balls? She pops it out of her giant hole just as it explodes in a gusher of white-hot man juice all over her face a la Bukaki heaven. The camera pulls back, and we get to see just a glance in the mirror of Simon holding the camera with one hand, while masturbating with the other.

how is their credit

[thenextstevejobs]

opening an account doesn't really get me anywhere. now if i can borrow a little money...

Re:how is their credit

[lordlod]

Step 1. Open a bank account
Step 2. Change banking details with employer, no questions asked as bank account is in correct name.
Step 3. Apply for second mortgage on house, no ID required as bank has already established identity.
Step 4. Apply for credit card, no ID required as bank has already established identity.
Step 5. Transfer $100,000 via offshore accounts

Enough

[daveime]

Getting tired of kdawsons scaremongering bullshit.

Can we have it corrected please, the headline reads like it has already happened ?

"Banks Could Conceivably Accept Dubai Assassins' Stolen IDs"

(And then only if they'd been living under a rock).

Re:Enough

[lordlod]

Getting tired of kdawsons scaremongering bullshit.

Can we have it corrected please, the headline reads like it has already happened ?

RTFA

Today, we used the details of two victims to open transaction accounts online with Australian financial institutions.

Re:Enough

[Noodlenoggin]

... and depending on the financial institution you cannot actually withdraw any monies until you've entered their premises and signed all the paperwork. At such time they also require you to bring in your 3 pieces, totalling 100 points of ID.

Re:Enough

[JimBobJoe]

Technically they did open two accounts but I believe what you said still stands.

Opening a bank account isn't exactly a path towards identity theft. Money laundering, perhaps, but large transfers in and out of the account will raise flags and investigations will ensue.

Besides, I hear hotels in Europe often photocopy the identity pages of passports. Does this mean that hotel clerks all over Europe could run to Australia and open up bank accounts in other people's names, and if that's true, what are they going to do with those bank accounts?

Re:Enough

[rynoski]

The banks did accept the IDs.
I've had enough of the "don't know the facts" bullshit.

Re:Enough

[rynoski]

I forgot to link to the story:
http://www.itnews.com.au/News/168273,banks-accept-dubai-assassins-stolen-ids.aspx

Re:Enough

[Swampash]

Three days ago journalists from an Aussie IT magazine opened bank accounts using passport details published by the news media. http://itnews.com.au/News/168273,banks-accept-dubai-assassins-stolen-ids.aspx

Before we get into this too deep...

[Anonymous Coward]

...let us not forget that there is no actual *evidence* to indicate that this was actually an action of the Israeli gov't. There's just been a lot of hot wind coming out of Dubai, and a bunch of finger pointing going on in the world. So until there is some evidences, let's not let this spin out of control into a pro-zionist vs. anti-zionist flamewar.

Re:Before we get into this too deep...

[pipedwho]

...let us not forget that there is no actual *evidence* to indicate that this was actually an action of the Israeli gov't. There's just been a lot of hot wind coming out of Dubai, and a bunch of finger pointing going on in the world. So until there is some evidences, let's not let this spin out of control into a pro-zionist vs. anti-zionist flamewar.

Maybe Israel has been set up?

It comes down to what nations (or organisations) had the capabilities to do what was done with the various passport forgeries, actors, intelligence gathering efforts, etc. And then what nations had the motive and desire to set up Israel in this way (or to get rid of that particular Hamas operative).

Dubai probably checked their short list of suspect countries and not only did they see Israel at the top of the list, but it seemed to be the only one on the list. So whoever did it either expected it to get away with it undetected, or to have it blow up in Israel's direction.

As far as the media is concerned, they just parrot what they're told. I can't imagine that any useful research was done by any media organisation beyond absorbing press releases from various government spokespersonnel.

Re:Before we get into this too deep...

[hyades1]

Yeah, it's not like Israel has ever been caught red-handed doing this before, is it?

http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1P2-751918.html

Re:Before we get into this too deep...

[phantomfive]

One thing I've been wondering about, this guy is with Hamas, if Israel wanted to kill him, why didn't they just wait until he came to Gaza? They've certainly had no problem killing other people in the Gaza strip. That plus the two guys who went into Iran make me think it might not be Israel, even if the Dubai chief of police is 100% certain.

Re:Before we get into this too deep...

[Eli Gottlieb]

Too late, flamewar started.

Correction ...

[PinkyGigglebrain]

"War of Terror"

Fixed that for you.

Both sides justify their dirty tactics by the existence of the other.

Re:Correction ...

[Anonymous Coward]

That moral equivocation is crap. One side deliberately targets civilians, the other tries its best to hit military/political targets which isn't helped by the deliberate use of civilians as shields/camouflage by the other side.

FFS kdawson!

[Anonymous Coward]

We know you believe your beloved Australia deserves to be on the front page of Slashdot every day.

That doesn't mean it does deserve to be there.

Can't we go even a single weekend without seeing non-stories from your country being plastered all over this fucking site?

Get a life, dude.

Correction: Iran does not care

[SuperKendall]

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people

That hasn't been proven and the last known whereabouts of two of them were boarding a ship for IRAN.

Why would Israeli agents be doing that? You know very little about middle eastern politics if you think only the Israelis want people dead.

Re:Correction: Iran does not care

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent is basically a Fox News repeater station: today it is that the Israeli spies were actually Iranian, yesterday it was that global warming is not just possibly exaggerated by a minority, but a grand hoax.

Fools!

[tsotha]

Oh, sure, these criminals may think they're getting away with something, but in Australia the penalty for such things is the boot.

And here's a usefull link ...

[Aceticon]

... to check on the status of things

you're arguing that al-Queda is justified?

[Anonymous Coward]

And before we start a discussion on (Israel) firing on ambulances/UN schools et,remember the Geneva convention and wartime rules are only applicable so long as both sides respect them. When one side ignores them, they become a worthless piece of paper.

You will respect wartime rules and won't shoot at *my* ambulances, civilian shelters, schools etc, so long as I respect the same wartime rules and not misuse my ambulances, civilian shelters, schools etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Dresden_in_World_War_II#U.S._Air_Force_Historical_Division_report "In the case of Dresden, as in many other similar attacks, the hour break in between the RAF raids was a deliberate ploy to attack the fire fighters and rescue crews." Are you sure that deliberate attacks on ambulances (rescue crews and firefighters) is prima facie proof of disrespect for the Geneva convention and wartime rules?

Unfortunately And when they dont respect it, it would be naive and totally unrealistic to expect their adversary (Israel in these two cases) to respect those same wartime laws.

Because if you are sure that deliberate attacks on ambulances is disrespect for the Geneva convention and wartime laws then you are also arguing that is is "naive and totally unrealistic" to expect adversaries of the U.K. and of the U.S. to respect the Geneva convention and wartime laws ... in which case you are arguing that al-Queda was justified in ignoring the Geneva convention and attacking U.S. civilians on 9/11.

The horror of military attacks intended to kill civilians should have been well-learned by now.

You guys don't even know your basics

[Anonymous Coward]

Hamas is NOT a nationalistic movement.
It is a religious fundamentalist movement, derives heavily from the international "Muslim brotherhood" movement, which, in turn, aims to create an international Islamic caliphate,
though the means used and extremity vary according to the local chapters.
Hamas are ENEMIES of Arab nationalism, and all secular Arab governments (with the exception of Iran dependent Syria) are opposed to it.
Dubai is upset about its territory being abused to fight some elses war. Not about the assassination of an Islamic extremist who came in on a FAKE PASSPORT himself.
They basically mumbled something along the lines of "well, if he had let us know he's coming, we would have appropriated him with guards".
They're just trying to clear themselves of accusations of complicity. They didn't even break this out on the news until Hamas started screaming and kicking about it.

If you're talking about a Palestinian nationalistic organization fighting Israel, then you're talking about FATAH (which also controls the PLO). These guys hate Hamas with passion, more so since Hamas kicked them out of Gaza. They are sworn enemies who also provide Israel with information on Hamas targets.
The PA (Palestinian Authority) only exists in the west bank, it has no control over Gaza, though it passes money to its former employees there in order to maintain their allegiance.

Again, back to the basics: Fatah = Nationalistic, based in the west bank (recently kicked out of Gaza). Hamas = Islamic fundamentalist, based in Gaza.
The west bank and Gaza are not even geographically connected, and their respective populations have always had a different way of thought and varying degrees of hostility between them. The connection of the these two entities has always been a pain in the side of those who try to come up with a peace accord.

Seriously, can't people even bother to read wikipedia and educate themselves before commenting?

Yes, Palestinians have a right to self determination just like any other nation (even ones formed yesterday) does, and while war is dirty, it is just a fact of life, at times a justified one.
Yes, The abuse of foreign passports of uninvolved countries is condemnable, and the respective governments have a right to protest.

*sigh*. Can we get back to technology & security issues? you know, stuff nerds do?

It's about individual criminals - not the country

[dbIII]

I'll bet it's a typo (how can it be an insult anyway if it wasn't?) and the problem is really that Israel is cursed with some criminals that the Jewish WWII refugees would despise that have managed to get into positions of power. Ignore all the "us versus them" bullshit and it comes down to individuals committing murder and framing others for it. No matter how highly placed the criminals are doesn't mean that the entire nation is rotten. It probably doesn't even mean that all of Mossad is rotten.
There was a historical difference made by the bombings but it's not really relevant today. The UN assembly has been full of mass murderers at various times (had one from Palestine and one from Israel at the same time once) and still has one or two. What is relevant is the actions taken by the current government and of course what their enemies are doing.

Re:It's about individual criminals - not the count

[Anonymous Coward]

"I'll bet it's a typo (how can it be an insult anyway if it wasn't?)"
Countless Americans write & pronounce isrEAl.
It is an indication of extreme ignorance if you don't even know the NAME of the country you are criticizing.
This is common among both supporters & detractors of Israel.

"Max Littlemore" made a claim based on a misconception of history, which I corrected.
It is important to understand that background, otherwise how can we learn for the future?
Furthermore, we are talking about very dirty ongoing civil wars in former colonies (e.g. so is the one within Iraq). The borders as established post WWI by world powers clash with real world ethnic division lines and it's extremely hard to resolve this issue. Making anyone the pariah of the world is both ignorant and childish.

Re:It's about individual criminals - not the count

[dbIII]

Max didn't have a misconception he just thinks it is more significant than you do - it's called an opinion. Every country has a few skeletons rattling around in the closet but what really matters is what is being done now.

haha, whe I first saw the hat

[geekoid]

Icon, I thought it was there because of the Assassin.

mm I love me some TF2

Nothing smarter

[geekoid]

then screwing around with an account an assassin has used.

If it indeed was Mossad

[sageres]

I can see the only reason for them to send a "convention" of the operatives to Dubai and then send two agents to Iran in such open manner as even duplicate passports of the Israeli dual-citizenship holders. It could be a shout-out to certain number of Israeli-hostile states in the Middle-East and Africa that no matter what you do and how many cameras you will put up: If you hurt Israel -- we will get you anytime, anywhere on our terms.

as bad as this is...

[WeeBit]

I would like to get my hands on those fraudulent bank accounts just for one day. Then I can commit a Robin Hood. I promise to be generous. Haiti, Chile, New Orleans, just to name a few.

s core +5, flaimbate

[Anonymous Coward]

Jim Bell was right. The problem is, government's don't like when you infringe upon their criminal prerogative and will lock your ass up. (If you're lucky).

citation needed

[jDeepbeep]

Israel basically doesn't care about what they've done to these people because for them their war against Hamas justifies anything...

So I take it you have evidence it was done by Mossad?

Re:citation needed

[LostCluster]

That was the initial, now discredited assumption. Sorry, my Slashdot posts can only be as accurate as the media is on the day I write them.

See the fuckholes we put up with on Australian TV.

[dogzdik]

The Australian media - for those unfortunates who do not have to suffer the benefit of it all, runs "competing" news services, who all run the almost identical stories - usually about worthless sensationalist bullshit; and the news readers and the journalists for the larger part - are just fucking idiots. I mean like Duhhhh it's a fucking passport.... And the brightest of them go and stake out the people and their houses - that is the people who had their passports stolen; And they complained about them driving away and then giving chase. All I could think of was being one of these media stalking victims, and owning a hummer and then ram-raiding every bunch of fuck hole journalists at ever stake out - outside of everyone's place. That is it - just running the hummer at high speed straight into the middle of them all... running them all over, ramming their cars and squashing their cameras, and cutting all their heads off and sticking them on their satelite dishes - for trophies in my front yard. For the larger part - Not terribly sympathetic to journalists and their cause. Most of them are fucking idiots and stupid ones at that. Stalking people and staking out peoples houses? I don't think so.