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Vivek Kundra On US Government Inefficiency

parkland writes "Federal CIO Vivek Kundra described some dismaying government inefficiencies in a speech on Thursday at the University of Washington's Evans School of Public Affairs in Seattle. It takes 160 days to process benefits for veterans, he said, 'because the Veteran's Administration is processing paperwork by passing manila folders from one desk to another.' Another example bound to make you grind your teeth is why it takes the Patent and Trademark Office 3 years to process a patent. 'One reason,' says Kundra, 'is because the USPTO receives these applications online, prints them out, and then someone manually rekeys the information into an antiquated system.'"

306 comments

  1. Possibly another reason by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Is because there's no consequence for them doing a bad job, so they can take their own sweet time. You have to screw up pretty badly to get fired by the Federal government.

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      DING! DING! DING! DING! You, Sir, are the winner. These inefficiencies are clung to for dear life in order to keep things moving slowly (for laziness sake). I've seen it at EVERY gov facility that I've worked at (which is a great many). And it's only getting worse.

    2. Re:Possibly another reason by Pojut · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I never understood this. You would think the entity in charge of keeping things running would want them done quickly and accurate...the amount of trashy, incompetent work and workers that the US Government voluntarily puts up with has always been a confusing subject. There are plenty of skilled people out there who likely would work for the government, if it wasn't so damn inefficient.

      Hell, I would...

    3. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Is because there's no consequence for them doing a bad job, so they can take their own sweet time. You have to screw up pretty badly to get fired by the Federal government.

      Sadly, the same is pretty true in corporate America. Heck, my father used to get excel files on floppy disks mailed to him every month in manilla envelope, because no one could configure their corporate e-mail system to allow larger file sizes and most managers didn't know how to attach files (this was in 2002).

    4. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Because the Federal Government is heavily Unionized, and that carries with it all of the negative consequences that we can see on display in American Manufacturing. Couple that up with an entity that can and routinely does absolve itself of any and all liability when it screws up.

      Viola! Anyone who is hired can never be fired, and the US government grows to be larger than the entire US manufacturing sector.

    5. Re:Possibly another reason by garcia · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is because there's no consequence for them doing a bad job, so they can take their own sweet time. You have to screw up pretty badly to get fired by the Federal government.

      More than likely there are several reasons for this (not necessarily all at the same time--but perhaps):

      1. They want to continue to increase staffing in their department. By proving that they are "swamped" with work they have more ability to do so. This increases the budget and thus the clout that the particular department has.

      2. The process to upgrade the systems, and fill in all the historical information, would be too difficult on all levels (financial, training, and time) to do. It's easier to continue the antiquated processes.

      3. The staff hired has been done so at a specific level of understanding. Upgrading the systems will create issues for these older unionized employees and thus they would need to be moved to another job, retrained and given a new job description and pay increase, or outright let go. Unions protect the employees against any kind of common sense options here and thus the status quo is preserved.

      4. Some random political reason that we are not privy to.

      5. The new system will not work nearly as well as the old because of various reasons including malice, incompetence, and bugs.

      ---

      As a student of public administration, someone who lived through unionized state employment, and someone who tries to ensure the taxpayers are insulated from rising costs, I understand the desire for change to increase productivity and decrease time but the costs involved (human and otherwise) are much bigger than you'll ever care to think about.

      Seriously, sometimes it's just better to live in the current world than bother screwing with something that "works".

    6. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It's rather straightforward actually, companies are kept efficient due to the profit/loss mechanism, if a company is horrible inefficient it loses money and this inefficiency is clearly visible through accounting.

      Government has no profit/loss mechanism since it's earnings are derived by taxation, and when something is inefficient it is said that more funding is required to alleviate the problem. Outside of government if something is horribly inefficient it usually goes bankrupt (at least in the past this was the case).

    7. Re:Possibly another reason by Korin43 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just think about how it works. In a normal company, if you're inefficient, you make less money. The government never makes money, but if it loses more money, it can just raise taxes and hire more people (added benefit: "I created jobs").

    8. Re:Possibly another reason by phantomfive · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One talking guy suggested that the reason government in the US is inefficient is because we expect it to be, and I think there is some truth to that. When was the last time you ever heard a politician say, "government is inefficient, and here is how we can make it more efficient!" It wouldn't be hard, there is so much low-hanging fruit on the tree of inefficiency. You could allow useless people to be fired, or change budgeting procedures so saving money is rewarded instead of punished.

      But we don't have any politicians who think like that, instead we have Republicans who say, "government is too big, we need to either cut it or cut its budget" and Democrats who seem to try to pretend the issue doesn't exist, I don't know what they are doing.

      In other countries, a government job is something you go to college for, and are trained for. It is something prestigious, and requires (often difficult) exams. I am not saying we should do this in the US, but I think we should be aware that there are alternatives, so we can choose which one we want.

      --
      Qxe4
    9. Re:Possibly another reason by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Interesting

      So, does that explain the rampant inefficiencies in Corporate America? The bigger *any* organization gets, the less efficient it becomes. There's a secretary sitting at a desk at Bank of America who knows how to cut her workload by 25%, but it'll never happen because her douchebag manager is out playing golf or banging the copy girl, etc. Such is life.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    10. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I work in a similar environment at the moment, except, I'm a co-op student and am not sure that I can ask other people to do extra work to "do things right". Why? Because we're already working overtime just to get things done.

      Though changing processes might make things more efficient in the future (and we have had large projects that are made to do just this, going on even now...) we can't seem to afford the time to fix *everything* at once. The result? We're waaaaay behind.

      Is there some kind of solution to this problem that anyone has found? How can I navigate around the bureaucracy and make things better? I work for an organisation that holds about 40,000 employees with a large mash-up of aquired businesses.

      My work involves working with Intranet applications (still on IE6 ;)), and currently our processes are very inconsistent. Because of this, I've decided to write better documentation and introduce policies for future co-op students to improve consistency and give them more time to focus on improving processes. Am I going about this the right way?

    11. Re:Possibly another reason by GiveBenADollar · · Score: 1

      Also because the people that move the manila folders from desk to desk value their jobs too. When 5 jobs in an office could be eliminated by a software update in the private sector they eliminate the jobs. When the same thing happens in the public sector they either keep the old system or upgrade to a new system that creates 5 more jobs. My own experiences have show that when the government goes paperless you end up with twice the amount of paperwork because everyone still needs a hard copy. This is impossible to change with the current system because there are no rewards to managers who streamline their system, and there are draconian rules in place that prevent positive innovation.

    12. Re:Possibly another reason by conureman · · Score: 1

      There may not be any way to improve the system. My girlfriend works for Contra Costa County. The primary, proprietary {steaming pile} of software that she uses seven [oh, yes, they laid some people off, so some caseload has been redistributed, and you'll be taking some days off, so we won't have to pay you so awfully much; Oh no! You mustn't work at home, or any overtime, and... why no, you WILL need to have all of your work done by the end of each month] days a week randomly deletes completed work rather than saving the file. This has been reported and corroborated by the entire staff, but that fact and the home-brew, IT-policy-violating work-around to incrementally back up that everyone uses are verboten topics with the PHBs. No avenues exist to suggest improvement, and this sort of thing also wears down morale.

      --
      The cost of that cleanup, of course, will be borne by taxpayers, not industry.
    13. Re:Possibly another reason by dunezone · · Score: 4, Insightful

      These inefficiencies are clung to for dear life in order to keep things moving slowly (for laziness sake)..

      Yeah, I would say its because we have government agencies still running on the same core processes and infrastructure from 20-30 years ago. And during those 30 years more processes and infrastructure was infused into the original processes and infrasture thus making it more complex.

      The only way to fix this is to overhaul the entire system which is very very costly and would take hundreds of thousands of hours to implement. You cant simply fix one part of the process either; because you are only as fast as the slowest process.

      The government could be highly efficient but no one is willing to spend the time or money to make this happen. Heck, I font even remember the last time an actual government agency was either cut or had a major overhaul.

      Bottom line it all comes down to money and which government official is willing to put his name on the same paper as the price tag.

    14. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You must not work in a company. Companies do the least they can do to get by, just like a lot of other places private or public. The fact that the government is forced to be transparent, to some degree, is at least a step in the right direction.

    15. Re:Possibly another reason by Marxist+Hacker+42 · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't. Not again, anyway. Even State Government was too strange for me- policies limiting the ability of workers to get the information they needed, combined with an attitude that if you did your job well enough to actually have the time to do your job well, then you must not be the type of employee they wanted.

      --
      SJW: a person who perceives an injustice, and while correcting it, commits a greater injustice.
    16. Re:Possibly another reason by phantomfive · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Unions protect the employees against any kind of common sense options here and thus the status quo is preserved.

      This is a perfect example of why people dislike unions, and why they are so unpopular in the US.

      --
      Qxe4
    17. Re:Possibly another reason by Z00L00K · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Being effective is not a requirement - and if you are too effective then you may lose your job.

      The patent office situation with antique systems - if it's so old that you only can type it in then that system must be incompatible with any modern system so bad that nobody can expect the old system to survive much longer due to lack of spare parts - unless it's a completely mechanical system using punch cards in which case you just need to find a decent blacksmith.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    18. Re:Possibly another reason by garcia · · Score: 1

      This is a perfect example of why people dislike unions, and why they are so unpopular in the US.

      It's just one of the reasons.

    19. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Republicans want smaller government? Please do tell where you were during the last Bush administrations.

    20. Re:Possibly another reason by Wiarumas · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Burning Platform. No government agency, unless highly budgeted, will submit to change, unless the platform is literally burning beneath them. For some agencies, this means change will never come. This is a HUGE problem in the US. Its not just that our organizations are inefficient, its that they are unable to adapt as well.

      --
      I will bend like a reed in the wind.
    21. Re:Possibly another reason by diskofish · · Score: 2, Informative

      Apparently you've never heard the phrase "good enough for government work".

    22. Re:Possibly another reason by fm6 · · Score: 3, Informative

      You would think the entity in charge of keeping things running would want them done quickly and accurate.

      Large organizations don't have collective will. They consist of huge numbers of people, each with their own agenda. And it doesn't help when the organization reports to elected officials who need to bring home the pork in order to stay in office.

      Bad as the current federal bureaucracy is, it actually used to be much worse. Before civil service rules (the same ones that make it so hard to fire people), government jobs were filled by "patronage" meaning that the politicos used them to reward their supporters. Up until the 60s, the chairman of the party that held the White House was always the Postmaster General, the Post Office being the single biggest source of patronage in the U.S. government. The PO was finally so badly run that they reconstituted it as the semi-autonomous Postal Service.

    23. Re:Possibly another reason by eln · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Basically, you do what you can to make your own job more efficient. With any luck, if you advertise that well enough to your superiors, you'll move up in the ranks and be able to apply efficiencies to more and larger processes. Eventually, if you stick to it long enough and get the right breaks, you'll be able to transform the whole company into a much more efficient operation.

      Of course, all of this will take 30 years, by which time all of the stuff you did in your early years will be hopelessly antiquated, and all of the lower-level employees will be constantly complaining about how inefficient everything is. Then, some other enterprising individual deep in the lower levels will start doing whatever he can to make his own job more efficient. With any luck, if he advertises that well enough to his superiors, he'll move up in the ranks, and so on.

      Change in large organizations is hard and it takes a long time. Right now a lot of larger organizations are using processes that would have seemed mind-blowingly efficient in the 1980s, or even 1990s, but seem hopelessly out of date today. Companies (and governments) do update process, and do get more efficient, but it takes a long time and a whole lot of effort.

    24. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sure you could find a democrat or too willing to spend the money.

    25. Re:Possibly another reason by Hadlock · · Score: 3, Interesting

      On the flip side, you'll almost never get fired for doing your work slow as long as you get it right and don't piss anyone off. Getting promoted for doing it quickly and correctly yes, but if you have no ambition, slow and never getting fired works great for lots of people just hanging around waiting for their (years worked=sweet gov't pension) to pay off.

      --
      moox. for a new generation.
    26. Re:Possibly another reason by zippthorne · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, but a company is naturally limited by its ability to generate sales. If a department grows so large that it swamps revenue, then eventually either the company will trim the department or the company will dissolve.

      The government does not have that check, because they can just raise the price of the product and everyone still has to buy it.

      You can cancel your phone service. You don't get to economize on how much "government" you purchase every month, and it's a bitch and a half to change service providers, especially if you want to keep the same house.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    27. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One talking guy suggested that the reason government in the US is inefficient is because we expect it to be, and I think there is some truth to that

      I've said this before many times on the interwebs - that the expectation of government failing ends up being a self-fulfilling prophecy. Who is this "talkin guy", and where can I get a hold of him? I want to scold him for stealing my talking points. :)

      When was the last time you ever heard a politician say, "government is inefficient, and here is how we can make it more efficient!"

      I hear that sentiment from our president all the time.

    28. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I looked carefully at the original purpose of the Federal government and found these words: ... establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty..

      No where is there a reference to "efficiency". In fact, I believe a certain amount of government inefficiency enhances liberty.

      In any case our elected officials are ultimately responsible for any inefficiencies. That fact that most elected officials are elected for life indicates that people just don't care.
      What most people care about is money. That is they constantly complain about outgoing taxes but are eager to gobble up Social Security and Medicare checks , Farmer subsidies etc.

    29. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think this is a nice way to create and keep jobs. Remove automation from where it exists today, give them stimulus money to hire more people. Go America!

    30. Re:Possibly another reason by edmicman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      It's not just limited to government, either. You just adequately described my current employer - well, at least one of the acquisitions the company has made over over the years. This part of the business in question has been doing things the same way for 15 years, and has gobs and gobs of processes and gotchas and business logic wrapped into a tangled mess of manual and convoluted automatic processes. Trying to change *anything* to make it uniform with the rest of the company and more efficient gets major pushback.

      I'd say bottom line is that NO organization that has been around for a large period of time can adapt. Everything and everyone will get stuck in their ways to the point where they can't manage and will get beat out by a smaller more nimble competitor. It's easy to see in the private sector, but I'm not really sure what the equivalent in terms of government will be.

    31. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever tried to use AT&T? I signed up for internet with them - internet, mind you - and the instructions had to be read to me over the phone. There was no option for looking them up online, or having them emailed to me. I asked. My AT&T phone's reception sucked, and I got cut-off during the nearly hour-long process (there were problems) a couple of times and had to start over with a new person each time.

      That's just the beginning. I had tried to cancel the account of the roommate that was moving out, and create a new account. I told her my address was the same as my old roommate's address. I was given an account number. After a while of not receiving any bill but seeing another for the former roommate, I figured out the person messed up, copy and pasted too much, and the old roommate's name got attached to the account. Minor mix-up, but solvable. I called and gave them my account number, after a while the person figured out that wasn't the real account number, gave me the real account number, and tried to help.

      I figured out later that it didn't work. I called again, and they couldn't find this new account number. Couldn't find the old account number either. I had a letter from them to my old roommate saying a collections agency had been notified, but they couldn't find the account. Called back later, and someone finally found the account.

      It was fucking Brazil. Mother Fucking Brazil. And it was a private company.

      While the government certainly deserves criticism, don't try to blame the fact that it is the government for why things are so bad. Old companies, with few exceptions, suck at integrating new technology -- even some of the ones whose main purpose is involves deploying and maintaining new technology.

    32. Re:Possibly another reason by roman_mir · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a student of public administration, someone who lived through unionized state employment, and someone who tries to ensure the taxpayers are insulated from rising costs, I understand the desire for change to increase productivity and decrease time but the costs involved (human and otherwise) are much bigger than you'll ever care to think about.

      - I would say that you should be one of the last people who we should listen to then, when it comes to such advices.

      You are saying you want to ensure that the taxpayers are insulated from rising costs, and I say you do them no favor. First, by insulating anyone from reality, you are creating a false sense of stability in a system that is really not stable and any change to status quo will be much more violent an dramatic than if the change was gradual and somewhat constant. Second, by insulating anyone from reality, you are hiding the problems in the system. If people were not insulating from the rising costs, they would pay more attention to what is happening around them politically.

      My point is valid, look at what just started happening at Berkeley and some other universities. People, when their money is at stake (and in this case it is obviously about money, as in education costs) will become politically active. If you want political activism resulting in violence, then go ahead, protect people so that they don't know what happens and by the time they even understand it, it's when everything is fucked.

      From my perspective, as usual, the government is together with the corporations, they are working together to screw the middle class people and to take everyone's money. Everyone's. This is not about party affiliations, this is about governments printing money, ensuring huge monopolies by creating idea of preferred corporations, who get deals on money. Banks, traders, mutual funds, construction companies, manufacturers like weapons firms etc, energy firms, those who know that they must lobby the government to remain powerful and rich, they create a situation, which mixed with the fact that the news agencies also are now corporations ran by the same people, take over the entire system. The government is absolutely 100% corrupt and cannot be redeemed. Almost every individual in the government is corrupt to some degree, but in the totality, the system is completely corrupt and it will cause destruction of currencies, not just the US dollar, some others as well.

      I am not blaming unions for this, they are just part of the entitlement problem, but they are not the cause. However unions should not be allowed anywhere near government jobs. What the hell is it, that allows government to be a monopoly on laws and regulations and timelines but at the same time allows government to strike so that people who pay taxes cannot even get the services they paid for by the taxes. Why should government have ability to prevent reduction in costs by enforcing artificial structures that prevent these reductions?

      At this point though, these questions are irrelevant. The government has failed and in some not very long amount of time the people will be left with a failed country. The rich have already done the transfer of their wealth abroad, they already have the corporations, the bank accounts, the physical gold and other commodities, enough to live through currency and state collapse, they will be fine. The poor, (the middle class I mean, they are the poor), will not be able to stop this, most of them will not even know what hit them when it hits. Right now it is the rising unemployment, but wait a bit, it will be the devalued money, the impossible un-payable debt, the worthless property in places that have no production left.

      This is what happens when you just provide them with bread and circuses and insulate them from reality for just enough time so that the cunning masters take everything away by devaluing the currency and making sure that they are again, the only ones with real wealth left.

    33. Re:Possibly another reason by Sir_Sri · · Score: 1

      or because they don't hire very many people with good ideas, and when they do, those people want things which cost money, and you can only spend money in government if it's to pander to a voting district and not to actually accomplish any sort of objective goal driven task. Of course if you want to get people who have good ideas on how to do things you also need to pay them decent salaries, which in many cases can be well over the 400k/year that the president makes or the 200k ish per year governor/provincial premiers make, and that's a political hot potato no one wants.

      On top of all that, why bother? Staff want improved efficiency, but what do government managers care? Their staff levels are the same either way, their workload is the same either way, being more efficient so you can lay people off (which you can't do) or have them sit around and do nothing isn't helpful either. Most government agencies change in size at a glacial pace.

      Governments are exceptionally good at wasting huge amounts of money accounting for how huge amounts of money are spent, which prevents managers having access to discretionary spending to try and improve efficiency. I bet the US government employs a total of about 35-40 million people (not all directly) (3.5 Trillion budget/13.5 trillion GDP, * 150 million working age in US), and I would bet within that there are literally millions of managers who, in the private sector would have access to much more money to improve efficiency. In government if even one of those guys is caught using the money on something politically unpalatable or just wildly inappropriate then the government brings in new measures to prevent this happening again, bad press then wastes millions accounting for the thousands some idiot spent on hookers or hammers made in China and not Kentucky.

      The political football here is the challenge. Conservatives tend to view government as the enemy (it isn't), and socialists want the government to go too far the other way and own too much, and liberals are trying to balance the two. Whenever something goes wrong socialists demand more people be employed to account for how to fix it, conservatives demand everyone be fired and in the end nothing useful happens. The US system has crept towards more and more public disclosure of the specifics of expenditure, on the face of it that sounds good, but it opens up individual congressmen into being bullied to show their returns locally, and preventing agencies from paying talented experienced people to do thing which are best done with talent and experience.

      Don't get me wrong, accountability and efficiency are both worthy goals but they are somewhat counter to each other, governments err too much on the side of accountability, business on the side of efficiency. Every now and then someone comes along and overhauls a system, in this regard businesses benefit much more than the US government (but not so much other federal governments). In a business you overhaul to stay successful, if someone else has reorganized and is more profitable because of it you spend the money and follow suit. Other governments tend to face this as well (eventually). If those frenchies can do X why can't we? But in the US any sort of outward inspection is often not considered at all. The perks of being the biggest and (at least temporarily) most powerful government in the world is that you don't have to listen to anyone, the problem is that if you don't eventually they'll do things better than you. Healthcare being the perfect example. The Europeans especially and the rest of the rich world in general regularly try and steal good ideas from each other. But the US, well you have to have a made in America solution to a problem well solved by someone else already. And my god, we cannot consider evidence of how and why those other systems work because that might be listening to the French and they're socialists!

      The current US government deficit is both a boon to policy and a major hamper on it. I feel bad for anyone trying to make major decisions. The lack of money will force efficiencies on the system, but creating efficiencies and adding value tends to have an upfront cost which there's no way to bear.

    34. Re:Possibly another reason by Captain+Splendid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, but a company is naturally limited by its ability to generate sales.

      That was a good argument, once upon a time, but in these days of Enron, AIG, Goldman Sachs...not so much.

      GP up the line has it right: ANY organization large and old enough will be susceptible to all kinds of creeping inefficiencies. Claiming otherwise, in a fit of libertarian apostasy, just makes you look stupid.

      --
      Linux, you magnificent bastard, I read the fucking manual!
    35. Re:Possibly another reason by jimbolauski · · Score: 1

      1) no argument there
      2) I find it funny that the government is forcing all hospitals to keep records online while totaly ignoring how much it will cost them and how much time will be spent acheiving this. Yet they will undoubtly make sure that there is a loophole granted to government institutions so they don't have to upgrade. The governemnt waists billions of dollars on "economic redevelopment" yet they refuse to spend the necessiary money to make them more effective.
      3)Most of the staff will be let go/given early retirement because the tasks will be automated, they will no longer need someone to "phyiscally take the specs from the customer to the engineers"
      4)If it doesn't further their political agendia politians are not interested.
      5)All new systems have problems but saying that moving from printing out a document just to type in back in in another format will be faster is foolish.

      --
      Knowledge = Power
      P= W/t
      t=Money
      Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
    36. Re:Possibly another reason by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Transparency is worthless without control. We can (and do) whine all day long, but nothing gets done and they are always quick to throw unions and half-baked policies up as a smokescreen.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    37. Re:Possibly another reason by blahplusplus · · Score: 1

      Careful there, this "government is inefficient" mostly has to do with generational changes, the same way our parents couldn't use computers or program VCR's, those that 'didn't grow up' in a generation promoting doing things better often just ends up with government workers making extra work to keep their jobs, there's also the opposite factor - offshoring all government services to third world where corruption is rampant and privacy of control over public information is nonexistent.

      Can we just pin inefficiency down to people and their stupidity please? There are LOTS of inefficiencies in the private sector, that is, the REAL private sector not some idealized ideologues version of it.

    38. Re:Possibly another reason by gumbi+west · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Given your theory, can you explain why medicare is the lowest overhead medial care system in the US and the highest rated on customer satisfaction? The fact of the matter is that large organizations always have lots of efficiency loss (even super far right libertarian economists admit this) but sometimes there is also a size gain that outweighs this.

    39. Re:Possibly another reason by Lunix+Nutcase · · Score: 1

      It's rather straightforward actually, companies are kept efficient due to the profit/loss mechanism, if a company is horrible inefficient it loses money and this inefficiency is clearly visible through accounting.

      That is unless that same company is cooking the books like we've seen plenty of in the last 2+ decades.

    40. Re:Possibly another reason by billcopc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Just let time take its toll on you. Young people think they can do anything, wise people know they can't. I'm still in that transitional phase.

      Most of the time, it's easier to get a new smarter dog (or business), than to teach an old one new tricks. Sometimes you just have to let the big guy collapse under his own weight, then rise up with a new solution.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    41. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you never heard the phrase before Reagan got a hold of it. Good enough for government used to be a compliment.

    42. Re:Possibly another reason by joocemann · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm reminded of the common wisdom:

      "Work smarter, not harder."

      Obviously the government just raises taxes and increases funding instead of things getting 'harder' and pressuring their entities to act 'smarter'.

      The thing that I get sick of seeing is the constant bickering about our government; and I admit I am just as guilty. Why am I sick of it? Our government is *OURS*. No matter how bad you want to point at corruption, lobbies, the republic, etc, the ultimate culpability for the actions of our government is on us people. If our government is out of hand, its still our fault. If our government is doing things we don't agree with, its still our fault.

      When people attach blame, or decide to attack, who are they talking about? They are talking about the United States and all its people. WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR GOVERNMENT AND ITS REPERCUSSIONS.

    43. Re:Possibly another reason by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      I realize playing golf is always a fun way to make fun of executives who's entire job is relationship building, of which playing golf is a great way to do it, and I am no fan of the mega corps and current banking industry made possible only though government regulation. I still can't see how the very minor 25% decrease in workload of a single worker compares even slightly with the entire redundant departments and people who could be completely eliminated in government positions.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    44. Re:Possibly another reason by MadnessASAP · · Score: 1

      Its the sad reality that many employees first impression of a union is "Great now my company can't fire me" unfortunately the second impression, "Damn my company can't fire my fuckwad co-worker either", doesn't arrive till it's far to late. Been there, done that, had the argument. Also hilariously enough the 2 places that I've ever been fired from were both unionized.

      --
      I may agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to face the consequences of saying it.
    45. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently you've never heard the phrase "good enough for government work".

      World War II called, it wants its meme back.

    46. Re:Possibly another reason by NoOneInParticular · · Score: 1

      I think the reason that medicare doesn't have overhead is that they simply don't check anything, but pay whatever comes their way. No overhead, yet very very expensive.

    47. Re:Possibly another reason by CherniyVolk · · Score: 2, Informative

      There are consequences, some of them dire.

      OK, first let's look at the F22 Raptor or the MiG-35. Arguably, the final word in modern aviation, these aircraft demonstrate a great deal of progress in aviation and all other relevant scientific application. A lot of technology, some of the technology is the very spear head of their relative fields.

      Now, there are VAX/VMS systems still used in the military. I'm not talking about some old geek with one in his garage that he tinkers with, no, these archaic machines are still essential, still used, still certified, still needed. At some point in the development from paper to manufacturing, a old and busted VAX/VMS was called on for the development of the F22 Raptor. Likewise, for the Russians, something equivalent might have been used in the testing, verification and manufacturing of their MiG-35 no doubt.

      Today, in the ship yards, the latest in maritime might is being constructed. Super carriers, massive beasts of the ocean capable of forward deployment anywhere in the world. These massive ships can push through the water fast enough to create a 35knot head wind for catapulting jet aircraft from a short distance, only about 60 feet above the water and make them airborne. 35knots is rather fast, and it's almost impossible to appreciate what a feat this is, even if you are physically standing on one of these ships in awe of it's size. I mean, the water displacement alone standing still is on an order of 90+ tons... it's unbelievable. Yet, right now, at the docks, someone is bringing a box of DDS-1 drives on board, real to real tape reals on board... even though no manufacturer makes that stuff anymore, but in spite of the billions of dollars to build that marvel, in spite of it being indicative of superior technology, some key technologies have yet to be changed (because they simply work).

      One might ask, "shit, dds-1? jesus who uses dds-1? why can't the military use flash drives or something new?". Well, therein lies the problem, because why use the flash drives? Seriously, we aren't talking about your home box, that has no life or death responsibilities. We can't go to a Senator and say "this is the newest stuff, maybe a little buggy, but since it's new, let's have it replace old and established fire control systems on board submarines!". No one, is going to want to stand a chance of a misfire, whether it's an accidental launch or perhaps worse, a faulty launch when one is intended. At the same time, a department head will say "well, it costs x million dollars to have this new technology integrated... regression testing, certification... testing, verification... it takes years to do, by the time it's said and done, they'll surely have something new. We have to decide not to chase the Joneses and stick with what we already invested in."

      It does make sense. Basically, the only way to introduce new technology into the military/government, is for it to be introduced as a new technology entry point, new implementation (which is costly as it requires testing against old systems, and certification). For example, want new fast CPUs installed on a jet fighter? Come up with some technology that the military buys from you, and the initial implementation have quad-zeon processors, but for the next twenty or thirty years that's what's going to be used... quad-zeon processors. Because the program office is going to certify the hardware, configuration and software to a 'T', and that combination and only that combination is going to be certified for that particular use in aviation. These guys don't play around, they can't afford to take chances, lives are at stake. In fact, some proprietary software sold to the government goes through bug fixes and revisions without actually incrementing version numbers, because for certain aspects of the program, if they do increment a version number then that requires re-certification, other aspects of the program might only require evaluation and approval from the program office (re: some regression te

    48. Re:Possibly another reason by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      The federal government has always treated its veterand badly, so expediting paperwork for veterans' benefits is probably one of those offenses that WOULD get them fired.

    49. Re:Possibly another reason by zildgulf · · Score: 1

      I do have to say our federal government is trying its best to be the most inefficient government in the world. I have to say that our efforts are having an effect towards our goal we are still far behind some 3rd world countries.

      But don't despair, our government is making great strides in making things run less efficent and we will make our goal very soon. USA!USA!USA!

    50. Re:Possibly another reason by crispytwo · · Score: 1

      There is no such thing as a normal company. You assume that a normal company cares about being efficient -- WRONG -- lip service to it, maybe, but actually - no. I have never seen nor experienced any company that actually cares about being as efficient as possible.

      Companies are there to make money. If something is working, it continues in that way until it isn't.

      The government is no different in that sense; if something is working, it continues in that way until it isn't. The main difference is that complaints about 'changing my job' or 'I won't have a job' weigh heavy on the government managers minds where it weighs less on a company's managers minds -- smaller companies can change more rapidly than big ones. Smaller government agencies can change more rapidly than big ones.

      There is little difference between big companies and big government. The major one difference is that the government is (supposedly) there for the people and the company is (definitely) there for the company.

    51. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One talking guy suggested that the reason government in the US is inefficient is because we expect it to be, and I think there is some truth to that. When was the last time you ever heard a politician say, "government is inefficient, and here is how we can make it more efficient!"

      Al Gore, "ReGo" http://www.ontheissues.org/celeb/Al_Gore_Government_Reform.htm

    52. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With regards to the patent office, that's only half the story. Patent clerks are paid based on the number of patents processed only, so quality is often overlooked or considered as an afterthought.

    53. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One talking guy suggested that the reason government in the US is inefficient is because we expect it to be, and I think there is some truth to that. When was the last time you ever heard a politician say, "government is inefficient, and here is how we can make it more efficient!"

      Actually, I hear that all the time (some of the proposals are sensible, some are ridiculous, but that's the same in any area of human endeavour.) OTOH, its not something you usually hear much of through the filter of the major media, which is usually more interested in focussing on the fireworks of political conflict without the substance of competing proposals.

      It wouldn't be hard, there is so much low-hanging fruit on the tree of inefficiency. You could allow useless people to be fired, or change budgeting procedures so saving money is rewarded instead of punished.

      There are problems with those "simple" proposals is:
      (1) there are usual processes in place designed to assure that people that are demonstrably incompetent or negligent can be fired. Proposals to make it easier usually amount to making it easier for managers to arbitrarily fire people, which was the case before civil service protections existed, and had all kinds of bad results, which is why civil service protections were adopted in the first place. Managers in public service often don't use the existing processes for a number of reasons, one of them being that blaming the "fact" that its too hard to meet the requirements provides a convenient cover for their own performance.
      (2) "Budgetting procedures" don't currently exist to to punish saving money. OTOH, if you don't take funds away from programs that have reduced costs, you don't actually acheive any savings; the big problem with budgeting and punishing cost savings is that it is frequent at fairly low levels for assumptions to get made about cost savings that will be realized by improvements, and for funds to be moved out in advance of concrete results demonstrating the decreased need for funds to do the job. Experience with this makes line managers reluctant to support (much less propose) projects that would make their units more efficient, for fear that funds will be preemptively reallocated based on assumptions of how the project will turn out, before the project is completed (and sometimes this happens, and then the funding for the project itself is taken away, so none of the savings ever materialize.) It's not easy to fix this with changing procedures, because its not something that exists formally within the procedures to start with.

      In other countries, a government job is something you go to college for, and are trained for. It is something prestigious, and requires (often difficult) exams.

      Many government jobs in the US require college (and even graduate) education in specific fields, and many require passing civil service exams (which can, sometimes, be difficult) as well. [OTOH, there seems to be a trend away from skills exams to favor "education and experience" exams, which aren't "difficult" in the same sense.]

    54. Re:Possibly another reason by zildgulf · · Score: 1

      In other countries, a government job is something you go to college for, and are trained for. It is something prestigious, and requires (often difficult) exams. I am not saying we should do this in the US, but I think we should be aware that there are alternatives, so we can choose which one we want.

      If we are going to have better services in processing patents, mail, social security, medicare, and the like, we will have to start adopting this kind of plan. Make a degree in government administration or an equal level test be the minimal requirements and make the testing open to all citizens in good standing.

    55. Re:Possibly another reason by mcgrew · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I have an old friend who works for the post office (he repairs mail boxes), and your list is valid except for item 3. Mike's union is all for the government giving its members more training, as long as they're getting paid for the training. And they can't be "outright let go" without cause; layoffs must be by seniority.

      He gets paid a lot better than me, I wish I had HIS union! Of course, his job is physical and not much fun, while I screw around with computers all day, so it evens itself out I guess. Money isn't everything.

    56. Re:Possibly another reason by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 2, Informative

      Hehe, do you think this has gone away? I am working for a firm that has several multinational corporations as clients. A sizable number of them demand the documents we prepare for them to be sent on 3.5 inch floppies by mail. The internal bureaucracies of corporations are not a wee bit more agile than government bureaucracies. Actually, dealing with our local patent office here is way more modern than dealing with most of our private industry clients. Heck, *I* get my e-mails printed out and brought to my desk. (It is mandated by law, however, that we keep a complete paper record, which is not a bad idea, in my opinion.)

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    57. Re:Possibly another reason by mcgrew · · Score: 5, Informative

      It's a perfect example of untrue but widely believed anti-union propaganda. This cop's union didn't help him, nor should it have. If your're caught stealing office supplies, your union won't help you. If you're reprimanded or fired for smoking in a no-smoking area, your union won't help you. If you're a "no call no show" your union won't help you. If you show up for work drunk your union won't help you. If your boss trumps up some bullshit charge because he just doesn't like you, then your union WILL help you.

      This is an example of an untrue statement being widely believed simply because it's been parroted so many times. If you work for a paycheck, you're probably better off with a union.

    58. Re:Possibly another reason by garcia · · Score: 1

      If people were not insulating from the rising costs, they would pay more attention to what is happening around them politically.

      Thanks for taking my comment out of context and twisting what I meant (although I suppose you may have been confused).

    59. Re:Possibly another reason by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      His name is Thomas Frank, and he is a columnist for the Wall Street Journal. It should be obvious with a little thought that there are some things that the government does better than the public sector (army, obviously), and there are some things that the private sector does better, and there is also a middle category of things that can be done roughly as well by the government or by the private sector. The hard part is figuring out where the dividing lines are between these categories. My intuition is that healthcare can be done roughly as well by the private sector as by the public sector, but I would like to see someone attempt to work out this theory more deeply.

      --
      Qxe4
    60. Re:Possibly another reason by FriendlyPrimate · · Score: 3, Informative

      That's exactly true. People in the U.S. dislike unions because they've been brainwashed into believing statements like "Unions protect the employees against any kind of common sense options".

    61. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People don't have a will. They consist of huge numbers of molecules, each with their own agenda.

    62. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it's a perfect example of the perception, anyway. Reality, as usual, is different. Unions are 'unpopular' because large corporate interests use the media to try and make them so. It's no different than how anyone who challenges the corporate status quo in technology is branded an 'evil hacker'.

    63. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Technology accretes over time, like a pearl, or more accurately, like a landfill.

    64. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Bullshit.

      Union jobs are about doing the least ammount of work in the greatest ammount of time. I've seen minimum wage mcemployees with better work ethics.

      UNION. Working hard at not working hard. And so long as theres no major fuckup they know they can't be fired for being lazy, worthless, or stupid.

      Sure, in the past unions did alot for worker rights and safety. But anymore.... Anyone who says union is a good thing is either one of the lazy ass workers who don't want to lose their sweet easy overpaid job. Or some sort of union rep who also don't want to lose their sweet easy overpaid job.

      All the people who like to actually get things done in a timely manner for a reasonable cost. Hate unions.

      I'll never work in a union company again. I just can't work that hard at avoiding work. It's easier to do the damm job efficiently.

    65. Re:Possibly another reason by Grishnakh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      That was a good argument, once upon a time, but in these days of Enron, AIG, Goldman Sachs...not so much.

      Obviously, it depends on whether the company is deemed "too big to fail" or not. If it is, then you might as well consider it quasi-government, instead of thinking of it like a company.

    66. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do a Google search for New York Teachers Rubber Room and you might change your mind. Some unions are either smart enough or not powerful enough to do this, but there are plenty that do.

    67. Re:Possibly another reason by Chibi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's a perfect example of untrue but widely believed anti-union propaganda. This cop's union didn't help him, nor should it have. If your're caught stealing office supplies, your union won't help you. If you're reprimanded or fired for smoking in a no-smoking area, your union won't help you. If you're a "no call no show" your union won't help you. If you show up for work drunk your union won't help you. If your boss trumps up some bullshit charge because he just doesn't like you, then your union WILL help you.

      I had a short stint working for the federal government, both as a full-time employee and as a contractor. At one of my positions, the guy I was effectively replacing had been fired for surfing pornography at work. My manager had to go to several court proceeding to testify about this... two years after the guy had been fired.

      We also had more meetings to discuss the chairs at the office we were moving to than we did about the database design of the system we were creating. Part of this was supposedly so the union wouldn't complain later. Possibly being overly paranoid, but management probably wanted to err on the side of caution.

      A woman at the office was caught sleeping at her desk. When the previous manager tried to wake her up, apparently, she fell out of her chair, and so she sued. Not sure the outcome of that, but she was still employed, and still falling asleep in meetings later. The most that the new manager would do would be to ask her to stop snoring, and then try to continue the meeting.

      Those are your tax dollars at work, protected by a union.

      While it's possible that unions do protect their workers, sometimes it is carried too far.

      --
      If all you have are silver bullets, everything looks like a werewolf.
    68. Re:Possibly another reason by Intron · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The PTO modernization has been out for bids off and on since at least 1985. As I recall, one problem they had at that time was the building wiring in some locations would not support much equipment at an examiner's desk, so they wanted data served from a central location and just have dumb terminals.

      --
      Intron: the portion of DNA which expresses nothing useful.
    69. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      What a total load of bovine excrement. I was a union member for a while. The shop steward had an unlicensed gun in his toolchest, at work. He kept his job, even post-arrest, solely because he was shop steward. So if you work for a paycheck, unions are good for illegal activities. In a reasonable world, there are very few situations in which unions actually provide value. Namely, for those occupations with workers who are physically transient from job to job. Some trucking situations, building, perhaps others. But the original motivation for unions was to provide a shield to protect employees from abusive employers. The only thing that MOST (not all by any means) unions are good at is to screw union members out of "dues" with absolutely no value add, and to cause small business owners to waste significant dollars and time defending themselves. Given that small businesses make up the majority of the economy of the US, unions simply reduce the GNP.

    70. Re:Possibly another reason by OpieTaylor · · Score: 1, Redundant

      phantomfive wrote: "we have Republicans who say, 'government is too big, we need to either cut it or cut its budget'"

      You didn't put enough emphasis on the word SAY. Republicans **say** government is too big, but what they mean is: give some of that money to our interest groups (defense, fossil fuel, financial, health insurance, etc. companies). I'm not defending Democratic spending--I'm just saying at least they don't lie about it.

      Look it up: spending under Republican presidents Reagan, Bush1, and Bush2 all went way up.
      Reagan - 80% increase
      Bush1 - 30% increase
      Bush2 - 67% increase

      source: http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2010/assets/hist.pdf

      --
      Thanks a lot, big brain. (K. Vonnegut, "Galapagos")
    71. Re:Possibly another reason by Lord+Ender · · Score: 1

      Agreed entirely. Inefficiency is an inherent property of all old organizations. And it's more expensive to convert old processes to new technology than it is to design new processes from the ground-up.

      However, this isn't an insurmountable problem. Trends like "Service-Oriented Architecture" allow for the modernization of old processes in a piecewise fashion: each component in a process exposes an interface via XML/HTTP for interacting with the other components. What happens behind those interfaces can be *anything* in any language or even on paper (at first). This subverts the huge one-time cost of designing a monolithic system which encompasses the entire process.

      --
      A slashdotter who didn't build his own computer is like a Jedi who didn't build his own lightsaber.
    72. Re:Possibly another reason by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There's a kind of inside joke government workers use when there aren't outsiders around. It goes like this: "A guy comes into the office and asks, 'How many people work here?'. So I say, 'Oh, about half of us.'"

      The truth is that if you look at any government agency where things get done, there will be a cadre of people who go above and beyond to make that happen. It's not easy getting things done under the rules politicians insist upon. I'm talking about the people who believe in public service, and the agency mission. I have a friend who works for HUD. He's passionate about access to housing for poor people. I've also known lots of absolutely stellar people working unglamorous and thankless public health and environmental protection jobs in the government sector.

      I even knew an IRS auditor. All he wants from the vast majority of people is truthful documentation and an honest effort at tax compliance. As long as you do that he'll cut you all the slack he can find in the regulations. Why? Because most people *can't* commit very much fraud. IRS already has most of the money you owe. What little fraud an average guy can commit is so unlikely to succeed it's usually just a mistake. But he has to deal with people who are mad at him because of how much tax the law says they have to pay, because the politicians who wrote those laws use auditors as a scapegoat. They'd like to reduce the number of auditors so the small number of people who have the financial sophistication to attempt serious fraud can get away with it.

      Here's the take home lesson: everything you hate about government isn't the fault of government employees. It's the fault of the politicians you elect to office.

      I've worked with many state governments as a private contractor. Every time the politicians get caught with their hands in the cookie jar, they pass "ethics reform" that applies to state workers *but not to themselves*. How dumb do we have to be not to figure that out? I've seen state employees who have to pay expenses out of their own pocket when they travel because the state travel reimbursement rates won't cover a decent hotel room. But the politicians are *still* flying off to those resort junkets.

      So what about that other half? The half of government employees that's not really doing much work? They're the politicians' fault too. One thing I've learned in business is that good people are usually a bargain at whatever price they can command, but bad ones are worse than useless and still cost you money. In most cases I'll take a guy who can command 100,000 in a field that normally pays 80,000 over four guys who can only command 50,000 in that field.

      I've also seen some really, really horribly corrupt places. They're not the norm, but you see them where there's a lot of political cynicism about public service. It is not a chicken or the egg problem. It's the politicians. They rail against *employee* corruption, but they don't take any effective steps against it because that would be breaking their rice bowl. For Chrissakes they talk about how bad the government *they're in complete control of* is? How stupid can people get?

      These are places where government is low-paid, and workers utrageously disrespected. Of course they attract a lot of people who think that honest public service is for suckers. I can tell you stories that would make your hair stand on end. But you know what, the people who keep voting for the same crooks deserve that kind of service. What is amazing is that there are *still* people there who give honorable service under those conditions. In fact those people in the "half that works" are even more important, because they aren't 1/2 of workforce. They're maybe 1/4.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    73. Re:Possibly another reason by Daniel+Dvorkin · · Score: 1

      When was the last time you ever heard a politician say, "government is inefficient, and here is how we can make it more efficient!"

      Clinton did say that, and he did a pretty good job of it, too. Of course, the effort was mocked and obstructed by the Republicans, who promptly undid everything the Clinton administration had accomplished as when Bush took office.

      --
      The correlation between ignorance of statistics and using "correlation is not causation" as an argument is close to 1.
    74. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1. They want to continue to increase staffing in their department. By proving that they are "swamped" with work they have more ability to do so. This increases the budget and thus the clout that the particular department has.

      This is something that's just as true for private enterprise, so it's no reason for government inefficiency.

      2. The process to upgrade the systems, and fill in all the historical information, would be too difficult on all levels (financial, training, and time) to do. It's easier to continue the antiquated processes.

      Usually indicating that someone did the cost portion but not the benefit protion of the cost-benefit analysis. There's a cost to not doing something too, and it's rarely understood or considered.

      3. Unions protect the employees against any kind of common sense options here and thus the status quo is preserved.

      Bingo! Plus, by personal experience, unions tend to force everyone's performance to the lowest common denominator. (Hey new guy, slow down! You're making us old timers look bad and we've got more seniority so...)

      Can't argue with 4 and 5...

    75. Re:Possibly another reason by cayenne8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Actually, I'm really starting to like Paul Ryan .

      I've only recently discovered him, but man...a lot of what he's talking about makes sense to me. Especially with Federal govt spending, etc...

      --
      Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
    76. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Obviously the government just raises taxes and increases funding instead of things getting 'harder' and pressuring their entities to act 'smarter'.

      The government is under no compulsion to raise taxes in order to increase funding. Half of the problem we have right now is that government has been increasing its own funding steadily since the 1980s without proportional increases in revenues. They've spent your grandchildren's taxes already.

      If Americans got the government they're paying for, they'd be disgusted enough to demand process reform

    77. Re:Possibly another reason by ickleberry · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A notable exception would be the TSA, DHS and NSA who of course have no problem rolling out the latest and greatest most technically advanced Big Brother surveillance technologies

    78. Re:Possibly another reason by not-my-real-name · · Score: 1

      Just because Republicans say is doesn't mean that they do it (this is generally true of all politicians, not just Republicans).

      --
      un-ALTERED reproduction and dissimination of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
    79. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Employees are often better off with a union. Customers and businesses are almost always better off without union inertia preventing all progress and institutionalizing inefficiency.

    80. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Schwarzenegger said he was going to "blow up the boxes" of California's government. A few years down the line and we're facing another terrible budget crisis.

    81. Re:Possibly another reason by mnooning · · Score: 1

      Two things wrong with the original explanations. 1) ... it takes 160 days because ... Wrong! Prior to computers, companies processed multinational paperwork in a single week. The cause is exactly as you have stated. 2) How many years to process a patent application? Wrong! It has already been 3 years for my software piracy application number 11678137, and the person assigned to it told me a month ago that it would be another two years before it gets looked into!!! I could pull my hair out over it, but there is nothing I can do.

    82. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Actually, I was visiting the F-22 project a few times to troubleshoot and some of the reasons why the VAXes were being used was that Boeing neglected to get newer computers certified for DoD projects. Led to all kinds of fun problems where Boeing's part of the development was way behind because of the relative slowness and scarcity of the VAX systems compared to the Lockheed Martin Windows NT computers.

      Why the Lockheed Martin certifications for NT couldn't be transferred to Boeing, or at least used to fast track NT at Boeing is still beyond me. Probably partly because it was advantageous for Lockheed to show up Boeing since they were competing for the JSF at the same time they worked together on the Raptor.

    83. Re:Possibly another reason by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      It's always a pleasure.

    84. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      People dislike unions for reasons like car companies having to pay "workers" for doing nothing because of some agreement I'm too lazy to look up right now. I also have a problem with civil service workers (including teachers) getting excessive benefits (those that far exceed that which is typically offered to workers in similar positions in the private sector) - but maybe that's just a personal pet peeve.

    85. Re:Possibly another reason by noidentity · · Score: 1

      Why did you use such an empty subject line? Why not something like "No incentive to be efficient". Sums up your message nicely.

    86. Re:Possibly another reason by DarkOx · · Score: 1

      I agree with you it is often better to live in the current world as long as things work. These processes did work. They were high tech in many cases when they went in. The USPTO for instance a decade ago moved much faster whatever they were doing may have been antiquated by the standards even then but it worked. I would have agreed with you and said you're right don't fix what aint broke. Trouble is if that is your mentality you still need to be willing to recognize when it is broke, and do something about it when the time comes.

      I am all for running a system until it will do no more, there is not need to be always chasing the latest and greatest and lots of good reasons not to do so, but we do need to make changes when changes are needed.

      --
      Repeal the 17th Amendment TODAY! Also Please Read http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/right-to-read.html
    87. Re:Possibly another reason by moortak · · Score: 1

      .7 percent of New York's teaching staff being on paid administrative leave while disciplinary issues are handled is not an indictment of unions. If the school board would have its disciplinary committe meet more than five days a month that number would fall rapidly.

      --
      Xavier Rabourdin for president 2012
    88. Re:Possibly another reason by dunezone · · Score: 1

      A notable exception would be the TSA, DHS and NSA who of course have no problem rolling out the latest and greatest most technically advanced Big Brother surveillance technologies

      That comes down to what government official signs off on it. No senator has a problem expanding those departments because after 9/11 security is a main concern and voters wont disagree with that.

      Now put the same amount of funding into a lesser known and lesser used department and your upcoming election opponent will use it against you as wasteful government spending.

    89. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      there's good reason to avoid work. If you do your work quickly, then you'll have to use weeks or months doing nothing. And nothing is more boring than doing nothing. So the work must be distributed to the whole time between the time the task is given and the time when the deadline for that task is.

      Big companies just cannot make some parts of the operation work faster than other parts - it would just lead to huge mess with syncronisation of the system. So everyone trying to do a good job will be rewarded by giving them some nasty work which is known by everyone to be useless - and especially it must not get in the way of real work. And if you manage to do that quickly, then give something else which is equally useless. Some years doing not-so-important tasks you'll learn what tasks are actually needed and which ones are just keeping the system running and delaying too fast people. And managers will just get annoyed by people who require constantly new tasks to delay their output and keeping them syncronized with the rest of the system.

      So there are entities where doing nothing is the right thing to do. You just need to do it so that you can use the required hours efficiently and be careful of not getting too bored with it. And when important task comes, do it as quickly as possible. And then delay the not-so-important tasks until next important task is available. You just need to correctly regognize which tasks are for delaying and which tasks are for real work.

    90. Re:Possibly another reason by tp_xyzzy · · Score: 1

      | We also had more meetings to discuss the chairs
      | at the office we were moving to than we did
      | about the database design of the system we were
      | creating.

      Experienced programmers just do not need handholding with database design. There is no reason to discuss the design - everyone is expected to figure it out themselves. On the other hand, chairs are important topic where everyone has their own opinion and if people's opinions are not respected, then it causes bad blood among people, especially if someone next chair has better one than yourself. So chairs definitely need more discussion than something everyone used their life learning how to do it.

    91. Re:Possibly another reason by serialband · · Score: 1

      I think the people who modded the parent funny stopped reading at the first line break.

      Some of what you just said actually happens at very large corporations too. When the workforce is large enough, a few will just slack off, blend into the background and ride on the coattails of the others. However, corporations have an easier time removing those slackers. I've worked in both and have seen the difference.

    92. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      because someone granted a patent on computer entry
      methods before the patent dummies realized it might be prior art....
      Wonder who will show up next with the submarine patent for
      chiseling on stone tablets.

    93. Re:Possibly another reason by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      that is untrue. most anti-union sentiment stems from the dislike of a seniority based system versus a merit based system

    94. Re:Possibly another reason by sjames · · Score: 1

      Reason 5 might be because they are absolutely positively bound to buy from the lowest vendor that's willing to lie and check off all the bullet points, even if they're nearly certain the bid is a lie.

      That's what happens when you take something that may be generally good advice and convert it into a rule that allows NO exceptions.

    95. Re:Possibly another reason by Eric+Sharkey · · Score: 1

      The bigger *any* organization gets, the less efficient it becomes.

      Is that why Walmart has to charge such high prices? To cover all that inefficiency?

      It's not size that leads to government inefficiency, it's a lack of competition. If you could pick one of three governments to pay your taxes to, you'd see efficiency shoot way up.

    96. Re:Possibly another reason by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      I recommend you chose Mexico to pay taxes to since you don't seem to understand what Libertarian governments look like.

      Oh, and Walmart chose the path of paying their workers crap wages and giving them crap benefits, then buying their goods from Chinese factories with no worker or environment protections in place to keep your t-shirts at $3/piece.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    97. Re:Possibly another reason by virtualXTC · · Score: 1

      In a perfect market, nothing, even in government, should be "too big to fail". The difference between a perfect market and a / the free market is why most Libertarians end up looking like loonies.

    98. Re:Possibly another reason by laddiebuck · · Score: 1

      It's worth noting that C. Northcote Parkinson pointed all this out about 50 years ago (I think 1959, to be exact), in Parkinson's Law and some of the other wonderful books he wrote. Did you know that he originated the 'colour of the bikeshed' analogy (it was material in his case, but someone on a BSD mailing list changed it to colour at one point). Very much worth reading.

    99. Re:Possibly another reason by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      Ah - that would mean that the patent office is located in a building filled with asbestos.

      Seems like it would be a potential health hazard to work there then. So time for a relocation!

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    100. Re:Possibly another reason by thejynxed · · Score: 1

      I don't see you volunteering to work an extra 30 hrs or more a week outside of your workplace for free. You apparently know jack-shit about what teachers have to put up with. If anything, they are underpaid.

      It takes the average special education teacher 160 hrs per year to write just their IEPs for a rather small caseload of students. This includes having to hunt and peck for information, write letters, look up state test scores, send out student surveys to other teachers, etc. These same teachers are allotted an average of 120 hrs to do that 160 hrs worth of work by their district (what they get paid for), on top of writing their normal reports, filing, grading, copying, meeting with parents, etc meaning the extra 40 hrs spent writing just those IEPs is on their own time, and unpaid. This on top of having to also teach class, serve as detention monitors, test monitors, coaches, fulfill continuing education requirements, etc.

      I should know this, because I am married to one. She hasn't had a day off from doing work for her school district since August of 2009, when she got a one week break before the school year started again. Many of the other teachers I know in the district are in the same boat, even regular ed. This is not unusual at all, and I have other friends who are in similar situations in other states.

      An interesting side effect of the No Child Left Behind legislation - traditional class subjects such as English and History are being eliminated, and instead all teachers from Science to Arts (when Arts even exists - it was eliminated from our district after NCLB, we still have Music, however) are instead basically left to teach the material on-the-fly and have to find some way to relate to the material to what they are teaching.

      Now consider all of this in light of the salaries of teachers topping out at an average of $45,000 per year, in the more affluent districts, and imply again that they make too much - mind you, quite a few of these people hold at least a Master's Degree and pay for certifications in subject areas out of their own pockets.

      --
      @Mindless Drivel: 100% of Twitter posts ever Tweeted.
    101. Re:Possibly another reason by dkf · · Score: 1

      Agreed entirely. Inefficiency is an inherent property of all old organizations. And it's more expensive to convert old processes to new technology than it is to design new processes from the ground-up.

      Part of it is because they're old, and part of it is because they're large. The reason why being large is an important effect is that small organizations that go that way tend to fail totally; there are efficiencies in being large that can support lots of sub-optimal practices. (OTOH, it's probably good that things aren't too optimal, since the overhang leaves room for action when the excrement impacts the ventilator.)

      --
      "Little does he know, but there is no 'I' in 'Idiot'!"
    102. Re:Possibly another reason by hey! · · Score: 1

      That's very true.

      I've found that a big part of getting more out of people is expecting more. As a manager, despising your employees is a psychological defense mechanism. None of us are perfect, and it's easy to blame that on the people around us.

      --
      Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    103. Re:Possibly another reason by gumbi+west · · Score: 1

      Including all costs (including incorrectly paid claims) medicare dominates efficiency in health care in the US. This is in line with the rest of the worlds experience: socialized medicine just costs less. France pays about 1/2 what we do per person and the main complaint about their medical care is that patients get everything they want. From a patients perspective, that doesn't sound so bad. You have to realize, in socialized medicine the doctor approves most things and gets paid by typical costs, not what is actually done, so there isn't paying doctors for doing more and there isn't layers and layers of lawyers, forms, and bureaucrats that also loose lots of efficiency.

    104. Re:Possibly another reason by toddestan · · Score: 1

      Well, it's state of the art now. However, it wouldn't surprise me at all if the systems they are running now will still be limping along in 2035.

    105. Re:Possibly another reason by Ultracrepidarian · · Score: 1

      They should find some backup infrastructure projects they can shift to when the regular work dries up.

    106. Re:Possibly another reason by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      You're blaming unions for the faults of management.

      At one of my positions, the guy I was effectively replacing had been fired for surfing pornography at work. My manager had to go to several court proceeding to testify about this... two years after the guy had been fired.

      I've never heard of any kind of contract, union or otherwise, where management couldn't discipline a worker for surfing porn at work. If this place had to go to court over it, either their contract management team was incompetent, or their legal team was.

      We also had more meetings to discuss the chairs at the office we were moving to than we did about the database design of the system we were creating. Part of this was supposedly so the union wouldn't complain later. Possibly being overly paranoid, but management probably wanted to err on the side of caution.

      Key word here bolded -- you're treating rumor as fact. What did the contract say? Again, the problem isn't the union, it's the incompetent management.

      A woman at the office was caught sleeping at her desk. When the previous manager tried to wake her up, apparently, she fell out of her chair, and so she sued. Not sure the outcome of that, but she was still employed, and still falling asleep in meetings later. The most that the new manager would do would be to ask her to stop snoring, and then try to continue the meeting.

      I've never heard of someone not being disciplined for falling asleep at work unless there was a medical problem like narcolepsy or something, which was likely in her case. I have a drinking buddy who works for the state of Illinois (he's union), and he was suspended for a month for a "threatening" email. The threat was he was going to "bring you down", and they interpreted it is a threat of violence when it was obvious that he was referring to having an incompetent supervisor loe her supervisory position.

      The funny part was, he was suspended with pay, effectively getting a free month's vacation. Again, incompetent management.

    107. Re:Possibly another reason by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      I also have a problem with civil service workers (including teachers) getting excessive benefits (those that far exceed that which is typically offered to workers in similar positions in the private sector) - but maybe that's just a personal pet peeve.

      Those "excessive" union benefits eventually make their way to nonunion shops; at least, where there is competetion for workers. Some of the "excessive" benefits you enjoy today are benefits like the forty hour work week, paid vacations, weekends off, sick leave, etc you would not have if not for labor unions. If you don't have these benefits, you only have your illogical and irrational hatred of unions to blame.

  2. Inefficiencies. by saintlupus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I work in academia, which is in many ways culturally similar to working in government. I wonder how many of these inefficiencies persist in order to placate an aged workforce that refuses to embrace technology and learn to do anything in a new way.

    I see a lot of people around here just sort of "running out the clock" - I can't imagine we're unique.

    --saint

    1. Re:Inefficiencies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      I think it's not so much an aging workforce as an incompetent workforce. Given it's pretty much impossible to be fired for incompetency from the government, there's not really any incentive not to be.

    2. Re:Inefficiencies. by TheLink · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The private sector isn't that efficient either. Sure there are examples of efficient companies. But I bet there are also efficient government departments.

      Speaking of embracing technology and doing things in new ways, how many companies in the private sector have bosses who encourage meetings (especially internal ones) to be done using instant messaging/IRC?

      This increases productivity since employees can be in more than one meeting at the same time, and they can still do other stuff. They could even go to the toilet or answer phones without interrupting the meeting - they can just scroll up when they get back, rather than everyone having the wait for you to get back up to speed.

      Whereas physical meetings tend to be very inefficient. A typical meeting could occupy 2 hours of real time from each participant but of which say only 5 minutes are useful.

      The rest is "idle time" - wasted. Multiply that by the number of participants and you are looking at a lot of wasted time.

      Maybe the next generation would be more accepting of this. But you have to be able to read well and fast enough.

      I'm not saying physical face to face meetings should go away completely - there will still be good reasons for them, but for so many meetings (especially more technical ones) they are unnecessary (given suitable IM software).

      --
    3. Re:Inefficiencies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      I work in academia, which is in many ways culturally similar to working in government. I wonder how many of these inefficiencies persist in order to placate an aged workforce that refuses to embrace technology and learn to do anything in a new way.

      I see a lot of people around here just sort of "running out the clock" - I can't imagine we're unique.

      --saint

      Government is heavily Unionized. This explains a hell of a lot of the problem.

      A staple hero of modern Unions is John Henry - the man that killed himself to beat the steam hammer. The rational of his heroism being that it was better for the men to keep their jobs doing back-breaking work rather than let the steam hammer do it better and let them move on to something that would kill them less.

      Unions celebrate inefficiency that maintains "jobs". They'd rather have 10 men do the work that one man with technology could. Because it grows their ranks. You hear the celebrated tales of union workers throwing their wrenches into the machines brought in to replace them.

      China has 4 times as many people, and they invest in technology to make each of their workers 3 times as productive as an American. The West's days are numbered.

    4. Re:Inefficiencies. by coaxial · · Score: 1

      I work in academia, which is in many ways culturally similar to working in government. I wonder how many of these inefficiencies persist in order to placate an aged workforce that refuses to embrace technology and learn to do anything in a new way.

      I see a lot of people around here just sort of "running out the clock" - I can't imagine we're unique.

      Yeah, because none of those people exist in the private sector.

    5. Re:Inefficiencies. by FooAtWFU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Wall Street Journal had a "defense of capitalism" editorial the other day which said that half the usual conservative defense was bogus, and the reason capitalism and a private sector is so good is that it promotes economic diversity, while government regulations and socialism promote a monoculture approach. I think this is a place that is aware of the pitfalls of "monoculture" enough to appreciate that.

      --
      The World Wide Web is dying. Soon, we shall have only the Internet.
    6. Re:Inefficiencies. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My school killed its last mainframe over winter break, moved most of its services to Google over the summer, and kept every IT job. At least the power bill is down.

    7. Re:Inefficiencies. by toadlife · · Score: 1

      In a school environment, the vast majority of manpower is used for helpdesk type duties and tending to broken equipment. The services that get outsourced to Google are not saving the school manhours.

      We are currently looking to outsource our students' email. As the in-house email system requires virtually zero time to admin, this will not save us manhours, but it will save us from having to spend tens of thousands of dollars adding capacity to our SAN.

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    8. Re:Inefficiencies. by TheLink · · Score: 1

      > The reason capitalism and a private sector is so good is that it promotes economic diversity,

      But capitalism isn't about promoting economic diversity. It sure seems to tend towards monopolies given half the chance. That's why there are antitrust laws in some countries.

      > government regulations and socialism promote a monoculture approach

      Depends on the Government regulations. As mentioned there's that anti-trust regulation thing.

      --
    9. Re:Inefficiencies. by lucifuge31337 · · Score: 1

      encourage meetings (especially internal ones) to be done using instant messaging/IRC? This increases productivity since employees can be in more than one meeting at the same time, and they can still do other stuff. They could even go to the toilet or answer phones without interrupting the meeting

      Do you _REALLY_ think that allowing, if not outright encouraging, people to be distracted will make for a productive exchange of ideas?

      The real problem is not that meetings take too long and take you away from other work. It's that there are too many meetings that are inconsequential and never really needed to be had in the first place. When you have a valid topic for a meeting and only the appropriate participants who actually respect each others time (not showing up late) things work just fine. The concept of a meeting is not broken or inefficient; the application of meetings to problems/people that aren't best solved by a meeting is.

      Nothing is more frustrating than trying to deal with someone who you KNOW is distracted. It's rude, and its inefficient. "Multi tasking" your way through a virtual meeting is a recipe for this. If your participation at meetings is that inconsequential, the real problem is that you were required to attend in the first place.

      --
      Do not fold, spindle or mutilate.
    10. Re:Inefficiencies. by senahj · · Score: 1

      > the reason capitalism and a private sector is so good
      > is that it promotes economic diversity,

      Unregulated, capitalism tends naturally to produce monopolies which have all the defects of "monoculture" state solutions, plus robber barons unaccountable to the society as a whole.

      It may be a delusion ... to imagine that state power can ever create a just society. But one reason some people are perennially tempted to try is that private power is generally so comfortable with unjust ones.

      George Scialabba in What Are Intellectuals Good For?

      --
      Wait a minute. Didn't I say that on the other side of the record? I'd better check ...
    11. Re:Inefficiencies. by TheLink · · Score: 1

      There are plenty of meetings where the participation is not inconsequential[1], the trouble is only a few minutes of it is important (where you take part actively or have to really focus), the other X hours don't require your full concentration.

      In those meetings the participants only need to concentrate when it's their section of the agenda, but they still need to be in the meeting to keep up to date with what the participants are doing and discussing, but that does not need much concentration (unless of course basic reading and comprehension is too hard, in which case you have a different problem [2] ).

      > The concept of a meeting is not broken or inefficient; the application of meetings to problems/people that aren't best solved by a meeting is.

      Sure, but most people who get the power to hold meetings still don't know when to hold meetings and who should be in them, and that sure looks like it isn't going to change.

      On the other hand, the upcoming generation of people that are using IM a lot (unlike their parents and grandparents) might be more acceptable to the sort of meetings I talk about. And if such meetings do become commonplace, the inefficiencies go down, even if people hold meetings unnecessarily.

      > Nothing is more frustrating than trying to deal with someone who you KNOW is distracted. It's rude, and its inefficient.

      With my suggestion, if a person is regularly a bottleneck, the bosses can see it in the archived chat logs of the meetings - the timestamps are plain to see.

      There are tasks which require full concentration - most people don't code/drive/conduct surgery/etc well when distracted. But in my experience participating in meetings hardly ever requires full sustained concentration by most of the participants. So participating in just one meeting at a time is a waste of their time. A boss wanting to squeeze out more productivity would thus encourage what I'm talking about.

      From a personal point of view I'm actually ambivalent about my suggestion - bosses squeezing every last drop of productivity out of employees isn't always such a great thing, but the topic is inefficiency after all, and there's plenty of inefficiencies about and this is one of them.

      I personally do not think that Productivity and Efficiency should be like Gods to us. To me the end goal of productivity and efficiency should be a better life for most people. If higher productivity and efficiency only results in a better life for just the "upper classes", then what we have achieved isn't much better than slavery in the old days.

      [1] There have been some meetings which officially I probably shouldn't have been in - turns out it's not really my scope, but I still managed to contribute some rather useful points. Similarly there are lots of people who still make very useful posts to Slashdot on topics that aren't in their official fields of study or work.

      [2] Analogy: If you have weak CPUs multitasking tasks can be counterproductive. But if you have powerful CPUs, while there are scheduling overheads, overall you can squeeze more out of your powerful CPUs if you get them to multitask, and even then they could still be idle most of the time.

      --
  3. And? by Jack9 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I am Jack's unsurprised countenance.

    --

    Often wrong but never in doubt.
    I am Jack9.
    Everyone knows me.
  4. Collosal waste of money by Ohrion · · Score: 1

    There really is no excuse for this disgustingly large waste of money. Simple automation programming is so obvious I just can't imagine how incompetent the decision makers in these organizations must be.

    1. Re:Collosal waste of money by OzPeter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Simple automation programming is so obvious I just can't imagine how incompetent the decision makers in these organizations must be.

      Possibly because the applications are not "simple" and perhaps because you have never dealt with a bureaucracy of any reasonable size. Its not that individuals are dumb, its the cumulative effect of lots of people not having the 100% best picture

      --
      I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
    2. Re:Collosal waste of money by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I bet the problem is budget.

      "Well, we'd like to stop doing these stupid things, but we don't have money to deploy a new system."

      And no one is willing to pony up the investment in modernization to save money in the long run. There are stupidities like this in every organization!

      It is all about the local minimum energy state.
      --PM

    3. Re:Collosal waste of money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of us are as dumb as all of us...

    4. Re:Collosal waste of money by design1066 · · Score: 1

      when computers do all of our jobs for us, what will we do?

    5. Re:Collosal waste of money by __aasqbs9791 · · Score: 1

      Sometimes, but not always. Here in Oregon the Governor at the time hired a friend to update the DMV computer system, she went way over budget (I seem to recall something like $400 million vs $200 million budgeted) and at the end, it was so messed up they rolled back to the old system! This wasn't the first thing she had completed messed up, from what I recall, either. Sometimes nepotism or other poor administration problems are the real culprit.

    6. Re:Collosal waste of money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      In chemistry, a catalyst or enzyme usually facilitates the shift from a local minimum to a lower energy state. What can function as a socio-economic catalyst?

    7. Re:Collosal waste of money by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why is it that when you have a group of people, each with say... 90% of the picture, their knowledge isn't combined to fill in the gaps as a whole, but instead works the opposite way where the gaps are cumulative, not the knowledge?

    8. Re:Collosal waste of money by ColoradoAuthor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Definitely not "simple." As grossly inefficient as it is, the system is not permitted to go down for a week or two for upgrades. Laws REQUIRE certain procedures to be followed (no "let's just skip that check because it's not economical"). Other laws may REQUIRE that certain procedure steps be done in a certain way (physical signatures, work to be done in a particular location chosen by a once-powerful Senator, etc). Yet other laws REQUIRE use of certain software (originally intended to force efficiency on some part of the process).

      So the technological solution needs to be paired with a legislative overhaul.

      Now let's say someone crafts a perfect law which would make the process better for everyone. Every congressman wants to vote for it. So then somebody will attach an amendment about a bridge, and somebody else will insert a gun control measure. Because everybody likes this law, right? And the whole process grinds to a halt.

  5. lol FTFA by OzPeter · · Score: 1

    "This is not how to run a modern government in the 20th century," he said.

    Actually thats probably par for the course for the 20th century!

    --
    I am Slashdot. Are you Slashdot as well?
  6. Oh no, slow patents! by Improv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd rather the patent office simply put the applications in the trash and never approve of anything.

    --
    For every problem, there is at least one solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.
    1. Re:Oh no, slow patents! by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Way to go - that's how you get "insightful" on slashdot. If you give up patents, prepare for 2-3 megacorps crushing every small to mid-sized, innovative business due to ripping off their inventions. The patent hate on /. is way beyond clueless. Now, if you'd say put every business method and software application in the trash, I'd be with you - those do indeed serve no significant purpose in my opinion. But all the small engineering, chemical, metallurgical and whatever businesses who bust their asses to deliver innovative quality goods for the supply chains of large corporations would be thoroughly fucked by the abolishment of patents.

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    2. Re:Oh no, slow patents! by rcb1974 · · Score: 1

      Not necessarily true. I've worked at startups and mega corps. In my experience, the startups often get stuff done faster and at lower cost. Startups don't have as much bureaucracy, paperwork, ISO9000 blah, "quality assurance" stuff to slow them down. Quality issues are usually caused by lazy incompetant employees. If you want Quality work, don't hire those kinds of people...

      Startups also typically don't have ancient manual information systems that are operated by expensive humans rather than cheap machines. People who work for startups also tend to be more adaptable (willing to learn and use new technology) than people who've been working at mega corp X for the past 25 years.

  7. These are actually efficiencies by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because the actual job of the government is not provide effective services, but to employ the most people to do the least effective job in a constant state of perpetual near-failure as to get larger budgets.

    1. Re:These are actually efficiencies by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Bah.

      I work for the Government. Well a state government here in the US, Alaska, and we are pretty darned effective.

      Less overhead than other public service I've worked, still a bit more than private sector though.

  8. Who the hell is this lady by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Seriously! I don't see this position in the Constitution? I don't remember Congress creating the post? I don't even remember Congress vetting this woman? Where the hell does she think she gets all her power from?

  9. Healthcare by iPhr0stByt3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency"

    1. Re:Healthcare by horatio · · Score: 2, Funny

      There are only a few of us thinking that, including myself. The rest are now thinking we're trolls for bringing it up.

      --
      There is very little future in being right when your boss is wrong.
    2. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      "The Government" consists of a whole lot of different fiefdoms and agencies. For every agency using manila folders and sneakernet, there are five that use SANs and RDBMS. Vivek's pointing out the worse offenders, but I wouldn't jump to the conclusion that all government agencies are necessarily inefficient. History plays a part in this too. I think if the Veterans Affairs system or the USPTO system were implemented fresh today they would be very different. Heck, there may even be a benefit to transitioning to gov't managed healthcare now as opposed to 40 years ago, simply from the lack of low-tech inertia.

    3. Re:Healthcare by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 5, Insightful

      We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency[sic]"

      Obviously you haven't dealt with the private healthcare industry. The insurance companies (for example) actually have motivation to make simple task harder for their customers because their job is to get people's money then make it as hard as possible for people to ever get any back. So they invent useless paperwork and rules and procedures to discourage the process. Trust me, I've been there. When you're really, really ill you better hope you have some good friends because there is no way you're going to stay on top of the paperwork and phone calls needed.

    4. Re:Healthcare by kiwimn · · Score: 1

      Have you ever dealt with the bureaucracy of health insurance companies? How the added paperwork from shit like health care reimbursement accounts? Walk into a doctors office here, get a few tests, and you're likely to get three different bills in the mail. I would MUCH rather have a system where I walk in, get seen, and bugger off home never to see a bill, because I already paid for it with my taxes. Why? Because I recognise that one day I could be the person without health insurance wondering how the hell I am going to pay for getting my kid seen.

    5. Re:Healthcare by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency"

      A single-payer system would eliminate a LOT of inefficiency at the doctor's office level in handling all the differences in the way insurance companies require you to submit claims.

      Also worth mentioning is the fact that processing claims faster than private sector healthcare companies is not a particularly high bar to raise in my experiences. It's not like the government has anything like a lock on slow, inefficient, customer-hating bureaucracies. The market doesn't really seem to do much to hold down healthcare costs or promote better customer care, if my limited pool of friends and family are any indicator.

      --
      If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
    6. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Couple of points:

      1. The situation with Medicare is actually improving. They contract the work out, and are seeing increased competition/efficiency as a result.
      2. Whatever the healthcare reform, the government will do little of the actual work. They will contract it out, regardless of whether it's single payer, public option, the exchange system, etc.
      3. We have had a long-term deficiency in the progress department in both the public and private sectors. Whether government or private (preferably both), that must change.

      But it's very convenient to simply claim that the government sucks and that they want to ruin everything. It's true that the government needs to be managed more effectively, but you have to be a shill if you aren't willing to admit that large corporations are just as inept and screw people over just as readily.

      In closing, please compare our healthcare costs/outcomes to the rest of the world. They have much lower costs and still manage better outcomes. If our system is this broken, and you claim that it cannot function as theirs, then I suggest it is time we replace it. I believe our government just needs tweaking, but you may feel otherwise.

    7. Re:Healthcare by hoshino · · Score: 3, Informative

      What's the use of all the private-insurer "efficiency" if they prefer to use it to screw you over for one more dollar?
      And I say "efficiency" because health insurance companies in US already have one of the highest overhead costs in the world, so you can hardly called it efficient.

    8. Re:Healthcare by garcia · · Score: 1

      The public sector has the same motivation for shifted reasons. By increasing the time required for work they can rationalize additional funding for their department/human capital.

    9. Re:Healthcare by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      National Health Care = forfeiting of personal freedoms such as what you can eat, drink, smoke, and other physical or mental activities you enjoy doing.

      Umm, what socialized healthcare system in the world stops you from doing any of those? I know some provide incentives for doctors to convince people to not smoke, but I don't know any that make it illegal. For that matter many places with socialized healthcare have more freedom as to what you can smoke. So are you trolling or just a complete wacko?

    10. Re:Healthcare by nschubach · · Score: 1

      There's a perfectly valid and working single payer system right now. The customer.

      If the customer starts treating their car insurance like their health insurance, you'd dread getting your oil changed or tires rotated because of all the paperwork as well.

      --
      Every time I start to have faith in humanity, I ruin it by driving to work between 7 and 8 am.
    11. Re:Healthcare by QuantumRiff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So if the government is a bunch of incompetent, inefficient morons who can never be as good as private industry, then why the hell do you care if they give people the OPTION of choosing a government plan?

      It should be obvious to you and your "its cool/trendy/rebelious to be libertarian**" buddies that the government plan will not have anyone sign up for it, and will flop. The Private plans will be cheaper, cover more people, and be fast to respond to needs of their wonderful customers!

      Right? So where is the objection?

      **I have been a registered Libertarian for 16 years.. I would love if anyone that lately claims to be a libertarian cause they got tired of being republican could actually state where the party stands on many issues.. And I'm getting tired of all the anger, lies, and misdirection lately.. Politics is just getting nasty...

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    12. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A single-payer system would eliminate a LOT of inefficiency at the doctor's office level in handling all the differences in the way insurance companies require you to submit claims.

      I can relate to that. Whenever I pay cash for medical treatment (since I can't get insurance) the doctors and nurses are delighted that they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and instead can give me exactly what I need.

    13. Re:Healthcare by X_Bones · · Score: 3, Insightful

      We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency"

      uh, no. Some of us are thinking "hey, let's let our government handle healthcare because it's fucking criminal that for-profit entities are allowed to literally and figuratively bleed us dry in order to please their stockholders. And a big contributor to inadequacies in things like Medicare and the VA system stem from a lack of funds for improvements, either because people are too cheap and shortsighted to raise taxes or they have screwed up financial priorities like funding instead the biggest military on the planet so it can go bomb people overseas."

      But then again I'm one of those filthy Commies who wants a single-payer healthcare system in the US, so feel free to disregard anything I say.

    14. Re:Healthcare by DesScorp · · Score: 1

      I don't know what kind of insurance you have, but I think you need to look for a different provider. I have what is probably pretty run-of-the-mill Blue Cross, and I've been through a couple of surgeries, my wife has been through a couple, and we both have prescriptions, as well as two kids that occasionally get hurt and need emergency room visits, etc. And in all those years, I've filled out very little paperwork. The only thing I pay for up front is a co-pay for visits, surgeries, and drugs. The claim filing process is all automated. Blue Cross sends me an email when a claim is processed.

      --
      Life is hard, and the world is cruel
    15. Re:Healthcare by coaxial · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yeah, I don't want a faceless government bureaucrat to get in between me and my doctor. That's what private sector bean counting bureaucrats are for!

      Unfortunately for you, the facts about socialized medicine are in. They're in from Canada, Europe, Asia, even right here in the USA with Hawaii ("This is a state where regular milk sells for $8 a gallon, gasoline costs $3.60 a gallon and the median price of a home in 2008 was $624,000 — the second-highest in the nation. Despite this, Hawaii’s health insurance premiums are nearly tied with North Dakota for the lowest in the country, and Medicare costs per beneficiary are the nation’s lowest. Hawaii residents live longer than people in the rest of the country, recent surveys have shown, and the state’s health care system may be one reason. In one example, Hawaii has the nation’s highest incidence of breast cancer but the lowest death rate from the disease."), and the facts are that it costs less and improved access to healthcare improves the health of the population.

      Meanwhile, the status quo has lead to us having the highest spending in the world, yet getting nothing for it.

      The current system is fundamentally broken and doesn't achieve it's social purpose. Scrap it.

    16. Re:Healthcare by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      There are more than a "few" of us. It is really hard though, for the average person to counter the following argument in the face of anecdotal evidence.

      "We must do something, this is something, we're doing it, therefore it is what needs to be done"

      We don't need to do "something" especially when the something will make things worse, without ever being able to revoke it later, guaranteeing something worse that we can't fix later.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    17. Re:Healthcare by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't bother. Check his sig. He's been lobotomized.

      Poor guy, probably doesn't know what hit him.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    18. Re:Healthcare by samkass · · Score: 2, Informative

      We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency"

      Let's mark that one up there with the "It's snowing, so global warming can't exist". We don't have to guess how it would work out, anyway. The fact is that Medicare and Medicaid are some of the most efficiently-run medical insurance programs in the country, with a higher percent spent on actual care than any private insurance company. It's too bad that even if the bill passes we wouldn't be able to get a public option.

      --
      E pluribus unum
    19. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      WTF are you talking about?

      I live in a country with national health care and national ID cards. Things aren't perfect and bureaucracy is the same as everywhere, but my government isn't controlling what I can eat, drink, smoke, and other physical or mental activities you enjoy doing. Heck! Even BDSM is legal here! P2P is legal too.

      Regarding the case of ID cards, I find it funny that in countries like the US and the UK --with no national ID card-- their citizens are asked to produce some form of ID even more times than citizens in countries with national ID cards. So, yeah, you don't have national ID cards, but you must present some kind of card zillions of times.

    20. Re:Healthcare by gurps_npc · · Score: 1
      Let me get this straight. You see the objections that people have when they TALK about chaning healthcare. You see protests, yelling, screaming, false lies about "death panels", and tons of other crap. You see Democrats losing MASSACHUSETS, the home of the Kennedies over the health care bill?

      And your take from all this is that Obama will somehow parlay a healthcare change to CONSOLIDATE power over the USA?

      God, I hope and pray the terrorists are as foolish and bad at planning as you are. Because only a total moron would expect that a bad health care bill would increase the Democrats power.

      If the healthcare gets passed and what you think will happen happens, then Obama will be unemployed in 3 more years. Obama's best chane for more power is if the bill gets passed and people like it.

      Of course, you are probably one of those paranoid fools that thought Obama would outlaw guns and ammo. Their paranoia has driven up the prices of ammo more than double, making many guns and ammo out of stock while Obama has done. NOTHING, ABSOLUTLY NOTHING. Not a single bit of their paranoid fears have come true. Why? Because they listened to people like you instead of actually paying attention to what the Democrats were saying.

      --
      excitingthingstodo.blogspot.com
    21. Re:Healthcare by Androclese · · Score: 1

      Go read the Senate Bill. Yes, that is the correct one to read because that is the one they are trying to ram through the House.

      Specifically, go find the provisions about the how any business that expends 10% or more of their expenses on health care and offload it to the Government for the low-low price of only 8% off the top.

      Now you tell me a single business that would look at that and NOT take it. The "option" is now forced upon the employees because the company made a business decision. Since the "Government Option" will work across State lines, something that is illegal for private insurance companies to do, it will become harder and harder for insurance companies to compete with the Government option, in effect, killing those private insurance companies.

      Congratulations, the US Government now has more control over your life and your money... last I checked, I thought we were against that.

    22. Re:Healthcare by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Insightful

      actually have motivation to make simple task harder

      This is only because of how Health Insurance is currently structured. If we had high deductible insurance that didn't cover any maintenance, but only covered rare and emergency situations, then we'd have much lower overall costs.

      Insurance is a middle man that not only adds costs to the system, but skims money off the top of everything to boot. This doesn't make insurance companies evil, it just makes them less efficient.

      Want to make the system less susceptible to fraud and abuse? Bring the costs closer to the person who is ultimately paying the bills, the health care consumer.

      And now, the anecdotal case scenarios will be brought forward about how Grandma is eating dog food, and Tiny Tim needing help for his legs.

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    23. Re:Healthcare by phantomfive · · Score: 1

      So if the government is a bunch of incompetent, inefficient morons who can never be as good as private industry, then why the hell do you care if they give people the OPTION of choosing a government plan?

      This is apparently what happened in Maine, where they actually have a public option: no one really signed up for it.

      I think the reason people dislike the public option is because they view it as the path to 'socialized' medicine (or single payer, but I call it socialized because I am talking about the point of view of those who oppose it). It is easy to see how this could happen: for example, if the new bill requires expensive treatments to be covered, but also prevents premiums from rising, all the other insurance companies will go out of business. The only thing left will be the public option. Whether that is Obama's plan or not, the mechanisms to do so are built into his bill, so it is possible.

      Personally all I really want is accessible, affordable healthcare. Whether it comes through a public option or some other way, I don't care so much, but so far no one has presented a plan with that result.

      --
      Qxe4
    24. Re:Healthcare by Jawn98685 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Yes, let's.
      Medicare overhead - ~5.2%-8% (depending on whose numbers you use)
      Private insurers' overhead - ~16%-35% (depending on whose numbers you use)

      So keep your government hands off my Medicare...
      Oh. Wait...

    25. Re:Healthcare by Jawn98685 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "all automated", eh?
      You, sir, have no idea what you are talking about. The parent is right. The process is anything but automated, and deliberately geared to make it difficult for vendors to process claims and receive compensation. I work in the industry and have first-hand knowledge. I see these deliberate inefficiencies heaped upon the vendors (who get the blame for rising costs) every day. You truly have no idea about what really goes on. Alas, you have lots of company at the "private insurance must be more efficient" kool-aid dispenser.

    26. Re:Healthcare by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know what kind of insurance you have, but I think you need to look for a different provider.

      None, because no one will sell it to me in the states.

      I have what is probably pretty run-of-the-mill Blue Cross, and I've been through a couple of surgeries, my wife has been through a couple, and we both have prescriptions, as well as two kids that occasionally get hurt and need emergency room visits, etc. And in all those years, I've filled out very little paperwork.

      Yeah, I used to have Blue Cross of Maryland, supposedly one of the best in the country because of stricter laws there. Then I experienced long term illness that wasn't one of the common problems, you know the couple dozen illnesses that make up 90% of cases. That's when the paperwork became insane. I wrote just my name address, phone number, and social security number on a sheet of paper almost every day for no reason whatsoever other than they needed me to write it for the twentieth time. That's annoying when you're well. When you're in and out of consciousness and vomiting all the time it's inhumane.

      . The only thing I pay for up front is a co-pay for visits, surgeries, and drugs.

      Yeah, thats fine until they start wanting multiple doctors to sign off on procedures and start denying procedures for no real reason. I ended up tens of thousands of dollars out of pocket for procedures it was too difficult to get them to pay for.

      Just hope you never get sick to the point where the cost of your care starts to go above the profit them made from your premiums... you know what insurance is supposed to be for.

    27. Re:Healthcare by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      And your take from all this is that Obama will somehow parlay a healthcare change to CONSOLIDATE power over the USA?

      Because only a total moron would expect that a bad health care bill would increase the Democrats power.

      DUH!, the Democrat party thrives on a nation of dependents. Why? Because historically those that depend so much on the Federal Gov will vote for Democrats. It's a positive feedback loop.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    28. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      We're all thinking it, so I'll say it: "Hey, let's let our government handle healthcare to increase effeciency"

      In Ontario Canada, the overhead for the single-payer (government) health care system is about 7%. In the US, the average overhead for the private HMOs is at least 25% in most cases.

      Most Swiss health insurance companies--private, but non-profit--run at about 4% overhead.

    29. Re:Healthcare by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Don't you live in an alternate universe.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    30. Re:Healthcare by cptnapalm · · Score: 1

      It is always nice to find a like-minded individual in the comments.

      The current system is where the person may be the patient, but they are not the customer. The insurance company is and they require all manner of paperwork, which is not cheap. As I understand it, they negotiate and the insurance company agrees to what is a maximum possible price they will pay for something, which is what the doctors then charge; there's no reason not to. It reminds me very much of government price caps, in that way.

      There was an article I read a few years ago on some doctors that don't accept health insurance nor government benefits. They make about as much money as they did before. What did change was that they had to start posting their prices for services, because the patients were now also the customers. Their patients are considerably more pro-active and, again from what I remember, their overall costs are less than they were before.

    31. Re:Healthcare by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      Obviously you haven't dealt with the private healthcare industry. - I am dealing with the private health care industry in Germany, but without insurance. It seems very efficient, convenient, has good doctors and provides immediate access. There are private insurance companies here but also there is the public insurance system. The hospitals are mostly private. The system looks fine for now at least, well a million times better than Canadian I am too familiar with unfortunately, and much cheaper than that of the US. A mix like that, private/public health care and private/public insurance seems a much better solution than the extremes of either all private or all government run.

    32. Re:Healthcare by joocemann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Healthcare has no market.

      When the product is a NEED rather than a WANT, the whole tone of business is changed. Health insurance knows you NEED them, so they really don't give a fuck about you and know your dollars will flow in their direction no matter what you think about them.

      People opposed to single-payer are ignorant and/or complete liars; people who think health insurance 'markets' are competitive are simply blind to reality and echoing irrational rhetoric.

    33. Re:Healthcare by AP31R0N · · Score: 1

      No one in their right mind is literally thinking that. However comma it makes for a great strawman for the right to attack.

      --
      Utilizing the synergization of benchmark e-solutions to pre-workaround action items!
    34. Re:Healthcare by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      Actually, while both Medicare and Medicaid are pretty darn good, the VA actually beats both of them in terms of bang per buck. And they're by far the least privatized of the federally funded plans.

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    35. Re:Healthcare by roman_mir · · Score: 1

      You have medicare for older people, right, those are people with more health problems. That's government run insurance. However good luck with your corrupt government running this 'efficiently'. They had a surplus in your medicare but they spent it already and put into debt. So the real problem with government is not efficiency or lack of it, it is the corruption, and it looks completely unstoppable and will take the country down. You can do one thing only, organize and never again allow an establishment, or more precisely, a corporate sell-out whore politician in the office, but seriously, what are the chances of that? You could go Chinese style and execute 90% of your politicians who are complete corporate whores, the execute some corporate whore executives. This will provide some incentive against corruption, but what are the chances of that happening? You can try and create a perfect and incorruptible society with the aim at creating an incorruptible and honest and hardworking individual, well good luck with that.

      I guess, maybe a robot run country, with the algorithm being Free Source and everyone is required to look and understand at least some of it during the education process. I guess I can dream.

    36. Re:Healthcare by toadlife · · Score: 1

      There's a perfectly valid and working single payer system right now.

      How can you say that it works perfectly when a large percentage of the customers get treatment, but don't end up paying?

      --
      I don't always use unix-like operating systems; but when I do, I prefer FreeBSD.
    37. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      something will make things worse

      If you have evidence showing things will get "worse" that isn't based on anecdotes and an irrational fear of "socialism", then by all means present it. Unfortunately for you, there is plenty of evidence showing things will in fact get significantly better if we switched to a publicly run system. Paper after paper has been written showing real gains in efficiency that would save the average American thousands of dollars a year. But hey. don't let reality and facts get in the way of your gut beliefs.

    38. Re:Healthcare by edmicman · · Score: 1

      But usually your provider choice is limited to what your employer provides, right? Sure, you can get it on your own, but that's not gonna be close the competitively priced, either.

    39. Re:Healthcare by tsotha · · Score: 1

      Obviously you've never dealt with the VA. Imagine your experience with private health care and then imagine a similar system run by people who can't be fired.

    40. Re:Healthcare by edmicman · · Score: 1

      So how can we turn it around and start treating our health insurance like we do our car insurance?

    41. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe the UK is like you say, I wouldn't know as I've never been there - but as a US citizen I haven't had to produce my ID in such a long time I actually can't remember the last time it happened. Probably the last time I flew. What are you basing this on, aside from your prejudicial need to bash the US?

    42. Re:Healthcare by atamido · · Score: 1

      The fact is that Medicare and Medicaid are some of the most efficiently-run medical insurance programs in the country, with a higher percent spent on actual care than any private insurance company.

      That's like being declared king of the retards*. US healthcare is the worst care/$ in the world. Being better than everyone else here is just not that impressive.

      * Please forgive the insensitivity of the phrase as it makes the point well.

    43. Re:Healthcare by Mindcontrolled · · Score: 1

      Regarding the case of ID cards, I find it funny that in countries like the US and the UK --with no national ID card-- their citizens are asked to produce some form of ID even more times than citizens in countries with national ID cards. So, yeah, you don't have national ID cards, but you must present some kind of card zillions of times.

      Indeed - around here, I had to present ID two times last year - and that was when I entered a secure research and development facility of a private business for a meeting. While I was living in the US, I had to ID myself for buying beer. At the age of 35, with a RMS-worthy beard. *Cough*

      --
      Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    44. Re:Healthcare by MartinSchou · · Score: 1

      National Health Care = forfeiting of personal freedoms such as what you can eat, drink, smoke, and other physical or mental activities you enjoy doing.

      Umm, what socialized healthcare system in the world stops you from doing any of those?

      All of them? The same is true for the US as well of course. You'll have a hard time finding countries where it's legal for you to eat psilocybin mushrooms, drink poppy juice or smoke cocaine, even if you're producing it yourself, eating/drinking/smoking it on your own, not selling to anyone etc.

      Not to mention that it's probably against the law to just think of having sex with children, even if you never touch them. And I think most places even outlaw physical activities like sex (depending on the locale), scaling buildings and many other things that I'm too bored and unimaginative to think up.

      But I'm sure the original poster didn't mean stuff like THAT. Those are OBVIOUSLY against the law, so that doesn't count.

    45. Re:Healthcare by bdenton42 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I think if the Veterans Affairs system or the USPTO system were implemented fresh today they would be very different.

      The Veterans benefit system was already in the process of being upgraded long before Kundra showed up... http://veterans.senate.gov/hearings.cfm?action=release.display&release_id=2b3c1e81-a85c-4cdf-8af6-51ce711dad8f

      Lots of low tech intertia there. It's easy to use a new system with electronic documents with new accounts, but not so easy to deal with migrating the 2.7 million existing accounts, especially when a lot of physical paper is involved. It just won't happen overnight. Meanwhile you have to support both the old and new systems.

    46. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're comparing apples and pears: Medicare insures a relatively small number of people who have an extremely high average
      annual health expenditure. It would be pretty hard for them _not_ to have a low overhead percentage.

      However, if you compare the administrative costs in dollars per insured, private insures kick the shit out of Medicare.
      And that's before you account for costs that are hidden in the Medicare number and explicit in the private insurers number
      (i.e. cost of revenue, cost of facilities mgmt, cost of hiring, etc.)

    47. Re:Healthcare by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Informative

      Obviously you've never dealt with the VA. Imagine your experience with private health care and then imagine a similar system run by people who can't be fired.

      Sadly, the VA is some of the better healthcare in the US. The people working there can be fired, especially if the press gets involved and politicians want to capitalize on the public interest. In the private sector, of course the employee can be fired, but more likely they will be given a bonus for exactly what they did to me. At the VA they probably don't care and just want to minimize their own work. In private insurance they are being paid to waste your time and make things hard on you, so you might just go away or die before costing them any more money.

    48. Re:Healthcare by bdenton42 · · Score: 1

      Whenever I pay cash for medical treatment (since I can't get insurance) the doctors and nurses are delighted that they don't have to jump through a bunch of hoops and instead can give me exactly what I need.

      The question is are you paying anything close to the "negotiated" rate that the insurance company pays the doctor?

      I completely fail to understand why I would be charged $200+ (minus a 10% discount if I sign up for a "discount" card) for a round of blood tests, but my insurer only pays about $25. Sure they get a volume discount, but an 87% discount is a bit crazy.

      If medical providers would charge people something a lot closer to what they charge insurers most people would not need anything but catastrophic insurance. But I suppose that's the whole point... the insurer effectively sets the prices to enable their own existance.

    49. Re:Healthcare by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      Also, unlike insuranbce companies, government doesn't have multi million dollar salaries to pay to top executives, and don't have stockholders to pay dividends to. If you do away with insurance, you do away with a huge part of the cost of health care.

    50. Re:Healthcare by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 1

      Okay, then you move to Canada, and don't come back when you have to wait years for that procedure you need.

      What evidence do you have that it is better than anecdotal evidence and bias "surveys" that don't include the wait times and ignores the people coming to the US to get the care they need?

      What evidence is there that the system in the US is broken at all? Does Canada border a third world nation, taking in Millions of illegal aliens a year?

      Of course you ignore such, because even mentioning the invasion from the south is "racist" (never mind that it is true).

      http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2009/08/12/canadas-health-informs-health-care-debate/

      http://edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/07/06/canadian.health.care.system/

      http://www.lonelyconservative.com/2009/12/27/mark-steyn-obamacare-will-be-even-worse-than-europe-and-canada/

      See, I can pull articles that support my position too. But if Canada is so much better than the US, why don't you see people crossing into Canada for health care, like you see people in Canada doing to the US.

      This includes having Canada pay US to take some of its people into OUR hospitals!

      http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1115892/

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    51. Re:Healthcare by TheSync · · Score: 1

      So if the government is a bunch of incompetent, inefficient morons who can never be as good as private industry, then why the hell do you care if they give people the OPTION of choosing a government plan?

      Because the government will subsidize the public option and put additional regulations on the private market to ensure that the public option becomes the only option. Even if this is not how the option starts out, it will be how it goes. Much like how Medicare has expanded over the years to include things like the drug benefit.

      Also see public schools versus private schools in the US, or NHS versus private doctors in the UK.

      In truth, I expect the evolution of the "public option" to put serious reductions on doctor pay (as we see in all European/Canadian health systems). A private insurance company can try to negotiate lower doctor pay (and they try), but only the government can mandate it. I'm wary, but I don't know exactly what will happen to our doctor pool if US doctor pay is reduced to European levels. Maybe nothing. Maybe something bad.

    52. Re:Healthcare by TheSync · · Score: 1

      what socialized healthcare system in the world stops you from doing any of those?

      Medicaid. Let's not forget that the US system is 50% socialized already (% of medical expenditures) by Medicare, Medicaid, VA, etc.

      The Tobacco Master Settlement Agreement was due to a lawsuit by 46 states demanding reimbursement for Medicaid payment from the four largest tobacco companies. This lead to a $10/carton price hike for cigarette users.

    53. Re:Healthcare by mrlibertarian · · Score: 1

      So if the government is a bunch of incompetent, inefficient morons who can never be as good as private industry, then why the hell do you care if they give people the OPTION of choosing a government plan?

      I can answer that. It's because the ONLY reason to offer a government option instead of a private option is so that the government option will get some unfair advantage. Maybe the plan will receive tax money. Maybe the plan will receive a special tax break. It may be subtle, but there will be some unfair advantage. If there wasn't one, then the public option supporters would just start their own, private co-op. There would be no need to go through the government, and no need to make compromises with republicans or conservative democrats.

      The government does not have some sort of magic power that will make the production process more efficient. Anything the government does through force could instead be done by private parties, so long as all of the parties involved will benefit from cooperation. If someone tells you that the government can make something more efficient, then keep a sharp eye on your wallet, because it's about to be picked.

    54. Re:Healthcare by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      But then again I'm one of those filthy Commies who wants a single-payer healthcare system in the US, so feel free to disregard anything I say.

      Well then, I trust you won't be too disappointed if some of us decide to take you up on your generous offer.

    55. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So if the government sucks at this, we should abolish the FDA? Because, you know, government can't get anything right.

    56. Re:Healthcare by argStyopa · · Score: 1

      "...why the hell do you care if they give people the OPTION of choosing a government plan..."

      1) guess who's going to be footing the bill? Suckers who are stupid enough to work their whole lives, have paying jobs, and pay their taxes. SUCKERS.

      2) because what is OPTIONAL to start, from the government, soon becomes mandatory. And how fair is it that the private sector has to compete with a taxpayer-funded-and-backed-nonprofit?

      Your choice - pick 1, 2, or 1&2.

      --
      -Styopa
    57. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Just like grocery stores... they've really got us by the balls too.

    58. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when was the last time you went out to a club? or to see a band?

    59. Re:Healthcare by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not sure I would of moded that a troll, it is after all, rather insightful given the last 12 years. Fingers crossed that things stay this way so that a real Libitarian party can form so we can actually start voting on issues biased on some form of logic. Though after the MA election, I doubt it will ever happen, some of the smartest people I know fell for S.B.'s emotional hooks until I pointed them out.

    60. Re:Healthcare by anaesthetica · · Score: 1

      Food has no market.

      When the product is a NEED rather than a WANT, the whole tone of business is changed. Food producers knows you NEED them, so they really don't give a fuck about you and know your dollars will flow in their direction no matter what you think about them.

      People opposed to state-run food production are ignorant and/or complete liars; people who think food 'markets' are competitive are simply blind to reality and echoing irrational rhetoric.

    61. Re:Healthcare by joocemann · · Score: 1

      I think you've put something is out of place. You are saying healthcare is food. Quite different. While I can grow some veggies in my back yard and buy local from people I trust, I can't get an MRI without someone standing in the middle waiting for a dollar that isn't deserved. Very different things here. There really isn't an option to provide your own healthcare.

    62. Re:Healthcare by StopKoolaidPoliticsT · · Score: 1

      Don't forget about the ~$60 billion annually in Medicare fraud, which adds another 14% onto your Medicare overhead. You can't just count administrative costs.

      That puts Medicare right into the same range as private insurance in terms of total overhead.

      --
      Stop Koolaid Politics
    63. Re:Healthcare by sarhjinian · · Score: 1

      But if Canada is so much better than the US, why don't you see people crossing into Canada for health care, like you see people in Canada doing to the US.

      This is such an easy argument to refute. Rich Canadians, like rich people anywhere, can go anywhere they like for treatment, and often choose the US because, if you're rich, or have very good insurance, the US has a good healthcare system.

      If you're poor and have bad or no insurance, the US system is very bad. Poor Americans cannot cross the border into Canada and get free care.

      In Canada, the rich have to get in line with everyone else. Yes, this means having to wait longer for non-critical procedures, which is why they queue-jump to the US. So yes, if you need hip replacement or suchlike, you need to wait. Tell me again what options are available to poor and middle-class Americans with no insurance? Other than debt or death?

      --
      --srj/mmv
  10. Got ebcdic? by voodoo+cheesecake · · Score: 2, Funny

    'One reason,' says Kundra, 'is because the USPTO receives these applications online, prints them out, and then someone manually rekeys the information into an antiquated system.'" I wonder if they're using EBCDIC

    1. Re:Got ebcdic? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Or whatever was used before EBCDIC on Remington-Rand mainframes.

    2. Re:Got ebcdic? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      I *think* that was BCD.

      EBCDIC is Extended Binary Coded Decimal Interchange Code.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  11. Inefficient Incentive by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    In government, the more money you waste, the more money you get. The incentive is to be inefficient.

  12. Caused by the Culture by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This tends to be a real cultural problem, with several cultural contributing factors. These include:
    1. Resistance to change.
    2. Resistance to cutting positions. Many govmnt people would rather do a boring inefficient job than have no job. They are there for the benefits and pay check, not the reward of a job well done. The unions support this because more employees equal more power. The departments support it for the same reason.
    3. All efficiency programs tend to be big bang, big buck efforts with a majority doomed to failure. The idea is that everything needs to be fixed at once, or not at all. Besides, it is a lot easier getting $20million for a big project that $10,000 for a quick easy fix that would make a significant difference but not take care of all of the world's ills.
    4. Many of the people in govnmt have no real concept of where to begin and when they want to do something, the system means that they eaither hire someone with the same govmnt experience and mindset, or they turn to one of the big consulting firms which design their solutions to milk the most money out of the govnment rather than actually solve the problems. The proposals get written to encourage this as well.

    The surprise is not that the inefficiencies exist, it is that many of them have actually been resolved.

  13. lol by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    and you want these touch holes in charge of your health care?

  14. Cue... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Cue "OMG why don't they just use open source? It'd be ever so much easier and it's FREE!!!"

  15. When people & processes can't be easily replac by Valdrax · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I see a lot of people around here just sort of "running out the clock" - I can't imagine we're unique.

    Pfft. That's everywhere -- government, academia, and the private sector. The bit about not updating your technology to placate a stagnant workforce is more prominent in the former two than the latter where people are replaceable commodities (aka "human resources"), but running out the clock happens anywhere that people don't take a lot of pride in their work and just want to collect a paycheck and go home.

    But even the private sector has legacy hardware to placate rather than update and replace. Why do you think COBOL and PL/I programmers did so well in the late 90s? Sometimes the pain of updating a process just can't be justified in the short term, and the private sector is even more focused on the quarterly/yearly budget than government & academia.

    I'll bet the USPTO has been wanting to replace that process for years if not decades. It's not like OCR and mapping translation software hasn't been around for forever. It's probably some combination of "costs to much," "too afraid to let things get backlogged in the transition," and "if it isn't broke (enough), don't fix it."

    --
    If it's for-profit but free, you're not the customer -- you're the product (e.g., the Slashdot Beta's "audience").
  16. Government? How about in the private sector? by kiwimn · · Score: 1

    I always laugh at the comments for articles like this. When are people going to realise that there is just as much waste in the private sector? Corporate jets, business lunches, exorbitant salaries, etc are all just another form of waste. Not to mention the fact that plenty of business are only concerned with the short term financial gain (to please shareholders) and not the long term health of the business/product.

    1. Re:Government? How about in the private sector? by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I always laugh at the comments for articles like this. When are people going to realise that there is just as much waste in the private sector? Corporate jets, business lunches, exorbitant salaries, etc are all just another form of waste. Not to mention the fact that plenty of business are only concerned with the short term financial gain (to please shareholders) and not the long term health of the business/product.

      The difference being, my friend, is that if the private sector continues those practices, the people responsible for the practices get let go or they go out of business, and then the only people who pay for it are the shareholders, not the tax payers. That is, unless the Federal Government bails them out so they can continue with wasteful practices.

      --
      Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    2. Re:Government? How about in the private sector? by kiwimn · · Score: 1

      The difference being, my friend, is that if the private sector continues those practices, the people responsible for the practices get let go or they go out of business, and then the only people who pay for it are the shareholders, not the tax payers. That is, unless the Federal Government bails them out so they can continue with wasteful practices.

      I disagree. Waste in the private sector is just accepted as normal. That raises the price for everyone, not just shareholders, because ultimately the business passes the cost onto the consumer.

    3. Re:Government? How about in the private sector? by arose · · Score: 1

      The difference being, my friend, is that if the private sector continues those practices, the people responsible for the practices get let go or they go out of business, and then the only people who pay for it are the shareholders, not the tax payers.

      If that was actually true corporate waste would have been eliminated by now. Corporate waste, however, continues and it's customers who pay for it in the corporations that magically* survive, not shareholders.

      * Or so it would appear to someone who has read up on the benefits of a perfect market and for some ass-backwards reason expects a free or mixed market to work the same way.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
  17. Better reason is that Govt Jobs are a job program by xzvf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Government jobs, Federal, State and Local are almost treated like a jobs program. Everyone has heard the noise when tax receipts (I refuse to call it revenue) fall short and people have to be let go. The stimulus plan was the Federal government borrowing money to save the jobs of State and Local employees. In my town alone Police, Fire, Teachers and Construction have been hired with two years of stimulus funds. When the money runs out in a year, do we get a new Federal stimulus? The Feds don't have to be efficient, because they have no competition, and if you put 25% of government workers out, unemployment goes up another 5%. There is no reason to do things better if it reduces the number of workers.

  18. Good for the USPTO by Waffle+Iron · · Score: 1

    As long as the USPTO is out there rubber stamping claims, then it's best that their rubber stamp is as inefficient as possible.

    The number of patents issued is already far too large and needs to be reduced by an order of magnitude from today's levels. In the absence of truly reforming the patent-industrial-complex to protect only truly exceptional innovations, government waste is better than nothing.

  19. Nailed it. by stomv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is exactly right. Each department would most certainly like to improve efficiencies by streamlining the workflow with IT. The problem is that implementing that IT costs money above and beyond what they've got right now. How to pay for it?

    Incidentally, this would have been a great place for stimulus money. Inject money into the system right now (stimulus) in a way that lowers long term costs. Then, once it gets up and running (after months to years of defining, planning, implementing, and testing), you trim down those departments either through reassigning or through attrition.

    Yeah yeah, I know around here the perception is that civil servants exist in this parallel twilight zone where they lean on shovels all day at best or interfere with individuals at worst, but that perception simply isn't reality. Some departments are better than others, often because of leadership and resource availability, just like in the private sector and the non-profit sector. Hopefully the CIO can identify opportunities and find the funding to implement savings.

    On a side note, this does suggest a way to find those savings: check printing budgets over time. It seems that printing and then re-entering information may be common, and printing budgets may be helpful in identifying where these processes exist.

    1. Re:Nailed it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      The problem is that implementing that IT costs money above and beyond what they've got right now. How to pay for it?

      This becomes an especially thorny issue when you have a bunch of nutjobs with teabags glued to their heads picketing your workplace.

    2. Re:Nailed it. by PeterM+from+Berkeley · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thanks for the backup. I also want to add that MANY of the government (or whatever bureaucratic) workforce have a good work ethic. They are just so mired in bureaucracy and poor process they can make very little headway.

      Congress is partly to blame here. Want to buy ANYTHING for the Government? Well, you have to go through this Congressionally mandated checklist:
      1) Is there a disadvantaged business that can supply it?
      2) How about a small business?
      3) Prove you're not stealing from the Government, please, and BTW, to prevent you stealing, you need 4 phases of review and 5 signatures for your purchase.
      4) How about a woman-owned business?
      5) Is there a mandatory vendor for which we've negotiated a price? Justify not using them. I don't care that the vendor you found costs 40% less.
      6) Is this the same vendor you used last time? Justify why you're not using a different vendor, or switch vendors. The Government doesn't play favorites, you know!
      7) Justify why you need this thing in the first place, in triplicate, and BTW, get these 4 people to review and sign off.
      8) Prove this purchase isn't going to have a negative environmental impact. I don't care that you're buying computer software.

      AND THIS ISN'T AN EXHAUSTIVE LIST.

      Ever wondered how the $10,000 toilet seats came about? This is how. And a lot of it can be laid at Congress's door. If ANYTHING gets done at all, it's because of the industrious work of way, way more people than should be needed to do the job, because of Congress's rabid application of their power to create new rules for everything.

      --PM

    3. Re:Nailed it. by atamido · · Score: 1

      Each department would most certainly like to improve efficiencies by streamlining the workflow with IT.

      In my own limited experience, this is wrong. Most departments are don't want to change because they have no motivation to improve things, and they fear the things that change brings (managers lose underlings, managers get downsized from consolidation, or managers are revealed to not know anything about their department).

      A few departments really want to improve things, which requires an investment of new technology. Unfortunately when they bring this up with their managers, their managers point to all of the other departments that seem to be operating just fine without some huge investment.

      With government, it requires someone at a certain level that can say, "this process ridiculous, and is wasting tons of money; so we will invest now to save money tomorrow."

      It also requires that same person high up to make it clear that the sudden infusion of money is not to be used to simply hire more people into the same ridiculous process, or buy new desks for all of the managers. From what I've seen, when a department does finally get a bunch of cash, about 40% of it is spent on new desks and flat panel TVs on the walls so that the offices look nicer. Then another 40% is spent to hire more personnel, even though it's not in the next year's budget, and is completely against the end goal (once the people are hired, it is easier to ask for more money because you have a larger department, and nobody wants to fire people). Finally, 10% is set aside for actual upgrades, which turns out not to be enough for more than superficial upgrades.

    4. Re:Nailed it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then fire an employee, delegate the job of IT switchover to 10 others, and have the rest of the employees pick up the slack until the job is done. Peer pressure will force the switchover employees to get the job done, because 20 employees will be breathing down their neck over the doubled workload.

  20. How many days does it take to move a folder? by KumquatOfSolace · · Score: 1

    Are they using some kind of giant land-snails as intra-office couriers?

    Seriously, the delay must be due to the time the folders spend sitting untouched in a filing cabinet or on someone's desk, not in transit. They could just as easily store digital information, unprocessed, on a server or desktop computer for the same amount of time.

    Most likely they will blame all problems on lack of computerization, then spend $100 million on a new computer system (which will be obsolete by the time it is complete) and 10 years later the real problems still won't be fixed.

    1. Re:How many days does it take to move a folder? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 1

      You're thinking in the micro. Think macro. How much time does it take to sort all those folders? How much time does it take to coordinate and delegate the workload between thousands of people sorting those folders? How long does it take to arrange for transportation of tons of this paper work between offices? What happens when Suzie from management is on vacation and Bill from the loading dock has to wait an extra few days to move said box of folders?

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
  21. Great....but by andy1307 · · Score: 1

    It's a good thing that he's identified the problem....but..he has no budgetary authority to influence the VA's IT spending decisions. If the VA does decide to upgrade their systems, it's the beltway bandits that will influence the choice of software..not Kundra.

  22. Hobby Lobby? by tthomas48 · · Score: 1

    You ever been to Hobby Lobby? The private sector can do it worse. And at least we can lobby or run for office to make the government use bar-code scanners.

  23. It's not just age by DesScorp · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I work in academia, which is in many ways culturally similar to working in government. I wonder how many of these inefficiencies persist in order to placate an aged workforce that refuses to embrace technology and learn to do anything in a new way.

    I see a lot of people around here just sort of "running out the clock" - I can't imagine we're unique.

    --saint

    It's not just the age of the workers... there are plenty of younger workers in the Federal Government. It's also a matter of jobs. Government unions are arguably the most powerful in the country, and thus are resistant to anything that would bring business-like efficiencies. Keep in mind that in the private sector, technological improvements allow you to do more with less. Why would Federal unions want that? Slowpoke paper operations keep more people on the payroll. If you brought modern information management and paperless office techniques to the government, you'd literally take away the only reason for the existence of hundreds of thousands of jobs.

    --
    Life is hard, and the world is cruel
  24. Thus the old libertarian joke... by engineer_uhg · · Score: 3, Funny

    "It's a good thing we don't get all the government we pay for!"

    1. Re:Thus the old libertarian joke... by jd2112 · · Score: 1

      Actually that is a (paraphrased) Will Rodgers quote.

      --
      Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
  25. You know, I've dealt with this kind of problem. by hey! · · Score: 5, Insightful

    There are all kinds of ideological explanations for why this *must* be so, but I don't think they hold water.

    My first management job was at a largish non-profit where I inherited a three year IT request backlog. So I analyzed the backlog and discovered that most of it consisted of requests for software to speed moving decisions from what amounted to the user's in tray to the out tray, and pretty soon I realized all those in-out transformations formed a network. I charted out the network, and it was *obvious* that certain key information latencies could be reduced from 35 days to about half a day by rerouting the information through this network. In fact, most of the work in the network could be eliminated entirely, while providing better, But rather than spring this on people, I just laid out the charts and they figured everything out for themselves. That way I didn't have to persuade anyone.

    Now the interesting question was how this kind of situation could happen. It's not because the people were stupid. They weren't. It wasn't because they were lazy or not dedicated. Quite the contrary. Lack of profit motive certainly played a part in the evolution of the problem, but it did not create the least barrier to addressing the problem.

    What we had was two levels of people in the organization. People down in the ranks who cared about the mission of the organization and understood their local piece of the process. And people at the top who sometimes cared about the mission of the organization, but were mainly focused on shmoozing. But nobody had any idea what the *whole* process looked like. So the people in the ranks were largely left to guide themselves in solving problems. They were self-starters, they had initiative, what they lacked was a global understanding of how everything fit together. So they talked to their neighbors in the existing process about where they were under pressure, then they demanded the higher ups provide them with tools to reduce the pressure at individual points. The higher ups had no idea how to fix these things, so they just stuck the requests onto the back of a three year queue, and when things began to catch fire they'd demand the queue get resorted.

    But the queue shouldn't have existed at all. When folks were done applying common sense to the big picture I provided, most of the dreaded request queue evaporated. My backlog went forty months down to under thirty days, and I didn't have a lick of code written.

    What was missing was *leadership*. In my book leadership equals caring about the results plus understanding how the process works.

    --
    Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
    1. Re:You know, I've dealt with this kind of problem. by pavon · · Score: 1

      That was said much better than I could have put it. I'm always skeptical when people clamor about throwing IT at a problem to fix it. The VA example is perfect. If it is taking 160 days to process a claim, then there is a bigger problem than using physical paper. There was once a time when there were no computers, and yet we managed to do things in a reasonable timeframe. This sort of thing wouldn't be tolerated in the 1920's so why do we assume that not using new technology is the problem now? Throwing IT at the problem without understanding what the problem is to begin with will just turn an overly complicated paperwork mess to an overly complicated digital mess. Except now you've added another layer to the problem with it's own overhead.

    2. Re:You know, I've dealt with this kind of problem. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's very accurate. Leadership, and good management, is often _very_ lacking in the public sector. The public sector is also very risk averse. People get fired for project failures (for reasons generally outside of their control) but not for failing to improve efficiency. The result is those leaders who do dare take on a project be very careful stepping through the minefield. To make matters worse, public sector projects tend to have massive issues with scope creep, again due to the failure of leadership. Combine all of that together, and you get an environment where it's almost impossible to make those sorts of changes.

      While it's easy to blame unions, or lazy workers, in my experience, that's not the real issue.

      The real issue is that very rarely do elections turn on issues of efficiency.

    3. Re:You know, I've dealt with this kind of problem. by CrazedSanity · · Score: 1

      That is truly a cool story, and a great example of how inefficiencies get into the system.

      As an IT contractor, I've been accosted on a daily basis by the idea that I should only give the customer what they want, and nothing more, or the idea that it is totally awesome when a project takes longer than expected or simply never ends. Most of the time it isn't thrown out that bluntly, but the end result is the same, and the basis for it is the need for security. It encourages concentrating only on the little pieces and not taking the big picture into consideration, to create a security blanket at the price of real innovation.

      "Hey, Jon. I wanted to show you this sweet software that could make Nancy's office way more efficient. No more paper-pushing!"

      When the word "change" is thrown around in places where papers are routinely pushed and no electronic part is involved, people get scared and start thinking things like, "they're going to replace me with a computer." The people doing the change aren't scared because their JOB is to do the change; the people affected by it are scared because nobody tells them what is in the change... now everybody starts talking even more.

      "I heard Nancy and her whole office could get replaced by one computer program."

      "I heard Nancy and her whole office are being replaced by one computer."

      "I heard Nancy and her whole crew got replaced by computers."

      "I heard Nancy's office was replaced by computers."

      "I heard Nancy was replaced by a robot."

      "Did you hear Nancy's whole building was destroyed by a huge robot?"

      "Holy shit... is that Arnold?"

      --
      Sanity is like a condom: rather have it and not need it, than need it and not have it.
    4. Re:You know, I've dealt with this kind of problem. by CodeBuster · · Score: 1

      The parent has made the most lucid, well though out and insightful distillation of effective project management that I have ever heard here on Slashdot. The problem, as the parent so eloquently puts it, is leadership or rather lack thereof in many organizations.

  26. The common variable by lsmo · · Score: 1

    This is not a problem of gov't. This happens in all forms of commerce public or private sector. The common factor is the HUMAN in the loop. Let me clarify that it is not all humans but there are those among us that side step all responsibility and accountability. They look for positions of protection and abuse them. Just look at the abuse of tenure in the school systems. Sorry to say it but the problem can not be solved unless we change our culture. I see this everyday but since I don't have any social connections to management I am pretty much powerless to act. If I do act it would be me on the way out the door. Sad but very true. Just my 2

  27. Failed Logic by mpapet · · Score: 3, Informative

    In a normal company, if you're inefficient, you make less money.

    You could not be more wrong. In most large companies, what passes for efficiency is neither faster nor cheaper. Success is based mostly on being the loudest with the deepest pockets.

    In small companies, it is merely the persuasive abilities of the customer facing people and the rare pragmatic customer.

    Seriously, it it time for this doublethink to die.

    The government never makes money
    Yes, they do. Fees? Penalties? Taxes? It's time for the "Government is the root of all inefficiency" to die.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Failed Logic by mcgrew · · Score: 4, Informative

      The government never makes money
      Yes, they do. Fees? Penalties? Taxes? It's time for the "Government is the root of all inefficiency" to die.

      My power company is owned by the city government, and it turns a profit. It also has the lowest rates in the state, and the most dependable electricity. Its customer service is stellar. If the customer service or dependability drops, or if rates rise too much, it's guaranteed to cost the Mayor the next election.

      It doesn't hurt that Mr. Burns runs CWLP.

    2. Re:Failed Logic by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Your backwards logic fascinates me and I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    3. Re:Failed Logic by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Way to be intentionally obtuse. Fees, penalties and taxes aren't examples of making money - that's taking money made by those "loud" and "persuasive" business.

      Now I'm waiting for you to tell me that money is actually "made" by the Treasury and Mint.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    4. Re:Failed Logic by Korin43 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yes, they do. Fees? Penalties? Taxes? It's time for the "Government is the root of all inefficiency" to die.

      There's a difference between making money and taking money.

      You could not be more wrong. In most large companies, what passes for efficiency is neither faster nor cheaper. Success is based mostly on being the loudest with the deepest pockets.

      What passes for efficiency hardly matters. If a company wastes less money, it will have more money. It's logically impossible for it to be otherwise. And don't start on crap like "But some companies waste money and then their income goes up", if a company spending money causes its income to increase, it obviously wasn't a waste.

    5. Re:Failed Logic by mpapet · · Score: 0, Troll

      There's a difference between making money and taking money.
      Governments do all that awful taking for roads, and those useless public safety functions like courts and fire departments. We don't need any of that silly waste management either. All that taking is just evil I tell you!! Pure evil!!

      As for the rest of your rationalizations, you've been duped by 'free markets' newspeak.

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    6. Re:Failed Logic by mpapet · · Score: 1, Interesting

      that's taking money

      All that evil taking. You know it just disappears!

      We don't need building inspectors to ensure our buildings don't suddenly collapse.

      We don't need public safety either.

      Public Schools are no damn good anyway. Just put those kids who can't afford a private education to work.

      Power? Who needs regulated power providers? Check out the history of California's power supply deregulation efforts some time.

      Yeah, all that evil taking is just not necessary.

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    7. Re:Failed Logic by TheKidder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hope you realize the irony of using Orwellian language to preach about the "dangers" of free market capitalism.

    8. Re:Failed Logic by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The article's examples - 160 days to process a VA claim, 3 years to process a patent - are exactly all that taking going down a black hole.

      You're on a roll. Nowhere did I say public goods are t3h evilz.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    9. Re:Failed Logic by ArsonSmith · · Score: 3, Insightful

      you seem to have no clue what making money is. A company makes money by creating something and exchanging that something to someone else for money, thus both parties profit.

      Fees Penalties and taxes are not making money they are taking money.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    10. Re:Failed Logic by Grishnakh · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That's not the same as the government, and is probably a public benefit corporation. There's lots of public benefit corporations out there that are fairly successful at what they do, such as the MTA in NYC, which runs the subways there.

      These companies are run much like other corporations, except there's more government oversight (since the government owns them), and there's no big profit motive to please shareholders like publicly-owned corporations have. They don't have the power to levy taxes or anything like that, so they're not subject to the same abuses the regular government is.

      They're actually a really good idea because they separate an essential function (like water, public transport, mail, etc.) into a separate entity where it's run like a normal business but keep it under government oversight. It's a much better model than just having some government agency run things, because then it gets much more political; this is the way they did things in the Soviet Union, for instance.

    11. Re:Failed Logic by PTBarnum · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I guess it depends on what your definition of "creating something" is. Does a private CPA create anything? Does the road repair crew in your city create anything? What's the line between useful work and useless work?

    12. Re:Failed Logic by Korin43 · · Score: 1

      You seem to be freaking out about this while I'm just answering questions. Have you considered that maybe I'm not that worried about it? Obviously the world isn't ending, my point is that the government has no reason to be efficient, which you've completely ignored by going off on your "OMG CAPITALISTS ARE INSANE" rant.

    13. Re:Failed Logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Orwell was a Socialist.

      Read "Why I Write".

      The conflation and revisionism in Americans' understanding of history is breathtaking.

    14. Re:Failed Logic by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Have you ever worked in a large company? Lean, efficient organizations are not the norm, nor are they the only companies making regular profits.

      There are multiple ways to compete, and multiple industries in which competition is not a deciding factor of success. Our complex economy cannot be explained by the simple ideas taught in Econ 101 (or by the entire field of economics, for that matter).

    15. Re:Failed Logic by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      so you're saying that when Vinny and his goons show up for their protection money they're creating money? Or when a tweaker steals all your electrical wire and sells it to a recycle shop they're making money. Of when your son steals money out of your wallet he just generated some revenue.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    16. Re:Failed Logic by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      No, it's not a corporation at all, and is owned and operated by the city. Todd "Mr. Burns" Renfrow is on the city's payroll, as are the linemen, engineers, electricians, etc (my dad was a lineman for CWLP for 20 years).

  28. It's about time someone provided evidence. by FriendlyPrimate · · Score: 1

    I'm glad SOMEONE has finally point out what some of these inefficiencies are. I (like many others here) consider myself a fiscal conservative. But it bugs the heck out of me that Republicans are always complaining about government inefficiency, but they never provide any evidence to back it up, or propose anything to improve the inefficiencies (except cutting taxes...whatever THAT's supposed to do). Republicans don't WANT to solve inefficiencies in government for fear of losing a useful campaign issue. Everything is "pork"....unless it's money being spent in their district, then it's vital for helping their economy. And that makes them all the more hypocritical in my eyes. Unfortunately, the Democrats aren't doing anything about it either, but at least they're not hypocrites.

    I would LOVE it if Obama started an Efficiency-in-Government initiative, but he hasn't lived up to the hype. And of course the Republicans/Fox News would somehow manage to spin it as being socialist/communist anyway.

  29. Vivek Claim Staking!!! by mpapet · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. I hardly doubt this guy just fired off this screed on his own.
    2. So, Vivek, how much would a new Patent Administration cost? How long would it take? You wouldn't have your job long enough to see the project complete, successfully or otherwise.
    3. How about that VA system huh? Let's stake your entire career on changing it. Ohhh now that YOUR skin is in the game, suddenly the status-quo looks pretty good.

    For every system that can be selectively discredited, there are 10 or more that are cost effective and relatively efficient with competent government employees in them.

    --
    http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    1. Re:Vivek Claim Staking!!! by CorporateSuit · · Score: 1

      2. So, Vivek, how much would a new Patent Administration cost? How long would it take? You wouldn't have your job long enough to see the project complete, successfully or otherwise

      As long as he doesn't hire government workers to fix it, it would probably take a few months -- maybe a year. Savings could be seen within 2 years. (Before the next election)

      3. How about that VA system huh? Let's stake your entire career on changing it. Ohhh now that YOUR skin is in the game, suddenly the status-quo looks pretty good.

      What? Who WOULDN'T? If you wanted to pay me to fix the federal government's efficiency, there would not be a happier man in the entire United States. Every hundred-million-dollar slice I tear from the beast would help me rest easier at night. Every bureau I thin down to 10% its staff, while doubling its efficiency would make my next lunch taste that much sweeter. Put my career on the line? Then I have nothing they can bargain with if they want to continue inflating their bureaus to match their egos. I'd see to it that the VA administers more to the veterans of the country than to the staff of the VA.

      And the fact they're all in a union would make it even easier to clean out the house!

      --
      I am the richest astronaut ever to win the superbowl.
    2. Re:Vivek Claim Staking!!! by mpapet · · Score: 1

      it would probably take a few months
      Your government contractor will give you an entirely different time line stretching to infinity and beyond.

      Every hundred-million-dollar slice I tear from the beast would help me rest easier at night.

      After the first $100,000 the contractor will complain many levels above you and have you reassigned.

      You have no idea what a pit of vipers working the way below-average gov't software contract is like. Much less the headline fodder a project this size becomes. End of story.

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
  30. Inaccurate about the Patent Office by Grond · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Patent Office does not do that and hasn't for years, except of course for papers that are mailed or faxed in. The Patent Office's Electronic Filing System is an end-to-end electronic system for the most part.

    Now, the EFS system does convert searchable PDFs to bitmap PDFs, which causes them to lose their searchability and greatly increases the file size, which is still incredibly backwards, but not quite as bad as printing things out and scanning them back in.

  31. "Cure" worse than disease? by walterbyrd · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How many mega-disasters have we read about here on slashdot that go like this: some government wanted to upgrade their outdated system, so they hired some ultra-expensive contracting company. The project went way over-budget and took way longer than estimated. By the time it was done, it was obsolete. Besides being obsolete, nothing worked correctly. The government spent insane mega-bucks to try and fix the borked project, but everything was too horridly broken to fix. So they decided to spend more mega-bucks to go back to the old system.

  32. A true tale of "Thatcherite" bureaucratic thinking by presidenteloco · · Score: 1

    I was commissioned to contribute to a large information system development proposal to a government that shall remain nameless.

    The first draft of the proposal I submitted had selling points like:

    "If you let us build this information bridging system (essentially a data warehouse and workflow system), you will be able to process these applications many times faster, and with better information available to the application reviewers in different departments,
    so that better decisions can be made."

    This, was a non-starter.
    In a meeting with the government representatives, I actually heard them say: "We don't want to be able to process applications faster. That would reduce our staff requirements and our departmental budget."

    So we came back with a proposal that said:
    "We'll build this system so you can package up the government data you have from various departments, and sell it
    to corporations and the public. (Re-sell it back to the owners, more accurately, since the data was public property already paid for by taxpayers). This way, your departments can make a revenue stream, maybe even a profit."

    Wow, think of the brownie points we'd get for that from our political overlords! They thought.

    And we got the multi-million dollar contract.

    --

    Where are we going and why are we in a handbasket?
  33. I didn't know... by JustinFreid · · Score: 1

    ...Terry Gilliam directed the USPTO.

    --
    Hey, how's it going?
  34. I love government inefficiency by Brandybuck · · Score: 1

    I love government inefficiency. It slows down the works. It's the next best thing to gridlock. When it comes to infringing my rights, taking my money, regulating my conduct, and snooping into my affairs, I want the government to be as inefficient as possible.

    Do you guys really want the USPTO cranking out fifty thousand patents a day?

    --
    Don't blame me, I didn't vote for either of them!
    1. Re:I love government inefficiency by mcgrew · · Score: 1

      When it comes to keeping poison out of the air you breathe and the food you eat... Oh, I see. You're the polluter who sold those poison peanut product last year. No wonder you hate government.

      Good luck getting your poison peanuts to market without roads and bridges.

  35. Cause: Refusal to Pay for Modernization by coaxial · · Score: 1

    None these inefficiencies have anything to do with the size of the government, but rather has everything to do with inadequate funding of government. I'm serious. Let's say the USPTO came to congress and said, "We need $200 million to modernize our system, after two years of installation and training, we'll have a system that can cut the approval process for patents down to six months, and can also decrease the number of invalid patents." Antigovernment groups would be up in arms. "Oh no! An expansion of government! Too inefficient! Government it is axiomatically bad at everything! The horror! The horror!" But no, they don't actually want to fix the problems (because that would run counter to their belief that everything government ever does is bad, regardless of the facts).

    All this "starve the beast" mentality is, as Reagan's Chief of Staff, Bruce Bartlett said, "simply unrealistic to think that tax cuts will continue to be a viable political strategy."

    You lose, by the the old playground rule: your-own-guy-says-so.

    After all, we all know what type of job they guy that sits around complaining about how he doesn't want to do the job does right? He does a crappy job. We all know this. We know this from childhood. We've all done it ourselves. So what type of government do you think you're going to get from people that don't like government? A crappy one of course. Only now that same malingerer turns around says, "Gee, government sure does suck now doesn't it?" No, you're intentionally doing a shitty job.

  36. Kundra, The Problem Solver by Paxton · · Score: 1

    Is he going to solve this with COBOL or skip logic, or maybe a holodeck?

    Just curious.

    +1 internets for anyone who knows what I'm talking about...

  37. Re:Better reason is that Govt Jobs are a job progr by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I am a government worker. Foreign Service. You my friend are spot on. But I'd extend your jobs program definition to the military as well.

    I am a liberal. I was very excited by Obama's election. I'll vote for him again. But, I have to say that since I started working for the Governemt I've become disillusioned. I now believe we need 50%+ cuts in ALL federal agencies. 30% isn't enough. It wouldn't go noticed. We need MASSIVE reductions. I come from the software industry (granted it was Microsoft but still) innovation is rewarded in technology. In government it is to be avoided. We really need massive cuts, so that the good people (and there are many) are forced to think on their feet and come up with better solutions.

  38. Sounds familiar by Jodka · · Score: 1

    I worked in an IT office of a state government for a short period.

    The system in place was that the department was staffed and run by incompetent unionized government employees, unqualified and incapable of doing their jobs. Union dues were mandatory for all state employees, there was no freedom to opt out. The powerful state employee union guaranteed that state union employees could never be fired. Mostly they screwed stuff up and collected paychecks. The actual work was done by private contractors. Some of which were honest and hard working. Others were deceitful and lazy and they had not problem pulling the wool over their incompetent paymasters in state government.

    The kind if inefficiencies which which Kundra sites are an eternal and intrinsic aspect of government; Public employee unions insure that incompetent employees remain employed in government. Incompetent employees, by definition, operate wastefully and inefficiently. The power to tax insures that no matter how wasteful, government agencies continue. That is unlike private enterprises which are required to have a net social benefit, producing goods or services of equal or grater value than what they consume.

    The examples which Kundra sites are symptomatic manifestations of the government system of waste. His public expression of opposition to government waste will make him popular with a public which shares those sentiments, but as a member of an administration which seeks to grow that system by historic proportions his real role is to enable that expansion by allaying concerns using the false promise that something is being done.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
  39. But would you *want* an efficient government? by gestalt_n_pepper · · Score: 1

    A government good at tax collection, or enforcement of other blatantly stupid laws like the drug laws would be pretty onerous.

    All hail paper manila folders!

    --
    Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
    1. Re:But would you *want* an efficient government? by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      Actually I do want that.

      The sooner the drooling masses suffer from the very crap they support, the better. Take speed limits. If they were perfectly enforced, there'd be rioting in the streets until the limits were made sane. If most people suffered the wrath of the IRS, they'd be up in arms DEMANDING simpler tax codes.

  40. All too familiar with this at the VA and FHA by terrahertz · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In a previous life I made my living working for a mortgage lender that did a high volume of VA and FHA loans. Though the end result of the loan origination process in the FHA/VA world is the same as that when dealing with a commercial bank (property owner gets check, loan applicant gets house and mortgage), the "how you get there" was completely different.

    Perhaps the single biggest difference, at least in terms of impact on my job, was the trouble resolution process.

    All the banks operated slick websites with functioning trouble-ticket systems, staffed call centers with actual human beings you could talk to about your issues, and generally made an acceptable effort to fix problems.

    When you had a technical problem with FHA or VA, what could you do? You could email a generic mailbox with your question and hope for the best. That's it!

    Once I managed to track down a real, somewhat technically-aware human being at the VA so I could inquire about a persistent, apparently unaddressed trouble we were having accessing a particular feature of the va.gov site. Her answer? "Yeah, that goes down all the time, just give it a few days and they'll get it fixed." This was accepted as normal there, and probably still is.

    --
    Slashdot? Oh, I just read it for the articles.
  41. Am I the only one who... by Jodka · · Score: 1

    can't wait for a government health care system run like that.

    --
    Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    1. Re:Am I the only one who... by L3370 · · Score: 1

      You don't have to. Just get sick enough to require surgery and drugs. Wait a couple weeks and you'll be swamped with phone calls from your insurance company, crying while they systematically deny coverage of costs line by line on your medical bill.

      I see the addition of gov't as an additional competitor. If private insurance/medical companies can't compete with a massive clumsy government system (which it will be, I agree with you)then they don't deserve the status they've built themselves up to.

    2. Re:Am I the only one who... by radtea · · Score: 2, Informative

      can't wait for a government health care system run like that.

      Like what? As others have pointed out above, with actual emprical data rather than ideological cant, single-payer/public/non-profit systems have lower overheads than the US private system. Even Medicare in the US has lower overheads than private American insurers.

      Overhead is a primary measure of efficiency. Lower overhead means more efficient.

      There are no actual facts supporting any claim of superiority for the US private health care system: people in countries with public systems live longer and spend less than Americans do.

      This does not mean Obamacare is a good idea: it isn't, because too many ignorant ideologues have prevented Obama from setting up a genuine public system of the kind found the world over, from Canada to Sweden to Australia, where in all cases average outcomes are better, lives are longer, and costs are lower than in the American system.

      --
      Blasphemy is a human right. Blasphemophobia kills.
    3. Re:Am I the only one who... by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Even Medicare in the US has lower overheads than private American insurers.

      Actually Medicare has higher per-patient Administrative costs than US private insurers. But Medicare has lower overall Administrative costs as a total percent of medical expenditures than private insurance. This is likely because old people on medicare are sicker and have much higher per-patient medical costs than the private insurance pool, which tends to be younger and healthier.

      US private insurers have a lot of non-Administrative costs, including state insurance premium taxes, corporate income taxes, but also private insurers provide a range of services besides direct medical payments (such as health call centers, health information programs for their corporate clients, etc.)

      By the way, here is an interesting article about the NHS computerization efforts: Tories accuse government of handcuffing health service computer contracts. "It is devastating for taxpayers to watch the government sign away billions more pounds on a failing IT Programme and tie the hands of the next government".

    4. Re:Am I the only one who... by plague3106 · · Score: 1

      No, there's overhead in Medicare. Its just that its so large they dictate prices to the hospitals, then insurance companies use that as justification to demand the same rates.

      People in countries with public health care come here whenever possible because the treatment is better. And its not just rich people either; my wife worked with a family from Russia who is staying at Ronald McDonald House while their son is treated for cancer, treatment not available anywhere else. They practically had to sell everything, but they still CHOSE to come here.

      Oh, and back to Medicare, many private practices are starting to refuse to take Medicare / Medicad patients, because doing so ends up costing the practice money.

      But keep thinking that public health care would improve things.

    5. Re:Am I the only one who... by Jodka · · Score: 1

      Overhead is a primary measure of efficiency. Lower overhead means more efficient.

      Nonsense. Overhead is no measure of efficiency. It is an accounting term for some specific categories of business expense. The proportion a government agency's expenses which its accountants classify as overhead tells me absolutely nothing about what quality of medical service I will receive at what prices were that agency to monopolize health care.

      people in countries with public systems live longer and spend less than Americans do.

      It is idiotic to draw conclusions about the relative quality of health care systems on basis of that comparison; Those are different populations. The correct comparison of medical systems is improvements from medical treatments. Those comparisons show that the U.S. is far ahead.

      --
      Ceci n'est pas une signature.
    6. Re:Am I the only one who... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      There are no actual facts supporting any claim of superiority for the US private health care system: people in countries with public systems live longer and spend less than Americans do.

      The one problem with this sort of assertion is that the people in other countries aren't Americans. They probably have more sensible diets. They live differently. So basically there is very little commonality to compare with it. I'd say the biggest difference overall is there are different attitudes towards life and death in general.

      Should Americans live (and think) like people in Europe? I think that would be a tough sell. As is any sort of single-payer health care system going to be. The most likely outcome is that it turns into the Veterans Administration or something very close to it - continually cash-starved and looking for any way to cut costs in a never-ending death spiral.

    7. Re:Am I the only one who... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      The problem with Obamacare isn't so much the "government as a competitor" it is the idea of mandating what must be covered by insurance.

      Today, some states mandate that mental health coverage be a part of every policy. Other mandate that prenatal care be included. Other mandates are for things like cosmetic surgery, transgender surgery, coverage for alternative therapies, like acupuncture and homeopathic medicines. Today the states with the most mandates are the ones where costs are highest and are having the most trouble. These mandates got in to law because of special interest groups garnering support from lawmakers. How does a State Senator get in good with the LGBT crowd? By adding a mandate for transgender surgery in every insurance policy in the state.

      A Federal level set of policy mandates - as will be part of Obamacare - is going to pretty much have to cater every single special interest group there is. The end result is that all policies will have a huge number of such mandates. This affects everyone, since to be "qualified" all plans will have to meet the Federal mandates - that much has already been made clear.

      So we are all going to be at the level of the states with the most mandates soon. I really don't expect the insurance industry to survive it in even the short term. The government is likely going to have to step in and take over.

  42. Re:Better reason is that Govt Jobs are a job progr by jimbolauski · · Score: 2, Funny

    I am a government worker.

    I never liked the term government worker it implies they actually do something.

    --
    Knowledge = Power
    P= W/t
    t=Money
    Money = Work/Knowledge so the less you know the more you make
  43. The container contains itself by moteyalpha · · Score: 1

    This seems to be a classic mistake. It is assumed that there is a method which will control and regulate innovation in the physical world. It is a rookie programming mistake and is an ongoing fork bomb that is only limited by the inefficiency of the process itself . If it were a multitasking environment then the patent office would continually become more latent in response until it was absurdly unresponsive. It is fine to suggest that the addition of more CPU time might solve it , but if it is a fork bomb, the allocation of more resources will only exacerbate the problem. It is not possible to document or control a process that is exponential in form with a process that operates in linear time.
    It is the case of the snake that eats itself. Paradoxical activity. A government can choose to be involved in anything and then later realize that it is an impossibility. I <em>won't</em> site a protracted land war in Asia as one.
    At some point the government will realize that what they committed to do is impossible and then they will realize that impossible tasks means permanent appointments and this will become the most prized position.

  44. Antiquated systems by PPH · · Score: 1

    So, why not replace them? Answer: The federal procurement system. Whether replacement systems are put out for bid under the primary procurement system or through one of the departments that run their own process, the end result is that the losers often tie decisions that don't go their way up in court for years.

    Back at a previous employer whos specialty was aviation, one of the primary reasons that the FAA was saddled with ancient technology for years was the practice of losing bidders (including us more often than not) dragging the results into court. We had far more lawyers attached to project proposals than engineers.

    When the same tort reform initiatives that are so dear to the hearts of the business community are applied to federal contracts as they want for consumer protection, the bidding process will be cleaned up. The government will get stuff that actually works, or not have to pay for it. But I doubt the business community will let such reforms go through.

    --
    Have gnu, will travel.
    1. Re:Antiquated systems by TheSync · · Score: 1

      one of the primary reasons that the FAA was saddled with ancient technology for years was the practice of losing bidders (including us more often than not) dragging the results into court.

      I've seen this from another viewpoint. A government-funded project by a large non-profit bids and evaluates technological solution. One vendor is chosen. The losing vendor calls up their Congressman, who applies political pressure for the government-funded project to adopt the losing technology.

  45. More money clearly needed! by J'raxis · · Score: 1

    So let's give the goverment more money so they can be even more efficient at taking our money.

  46. Congress is the Reason by Lurching · · Score: 1

    Congress has passed so many laws and requirements that any federal agency that wants to modernize has to spend years filling out the impact paperwork.

    Add to that an annual, zero-based budget (no long-term funding). Each department has to spend months preparing their budget inputs - all of which gets ignored by Congress who creates their own.

  47. Re:When people & processes can't be easily rep by billcopc · · Score: 1

    It's not like OCR and mapping translation software hasn't been around for forever.

    True, it has been around forever. It's been written by the same no-talent assclowns who have been waiting out their clocks and covering their asses since the dawn of time. My experience with all these "migration easing" tools is that they are a bigger pain than just writing your own damned code. That's why almost all my migrations are done with a few trivial bits of C++ or PHP.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  48. Apples and Oranges by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    It's easy to find cases of government waste and inefficiency. In spite of their best efforts, democratic governments have to release a certain amount of information about how they conduct business, no matter how embarrassing it may be. And then there's whistle-blowers and ex-employees who are happy to provide an endless fund of stories (many accurate, some not) about incompetence, stupidity and outright law-breaking by bureaucrats.

    Private businesses are much better at keeping their failures under wraps. Even their minimal disclosure requirements can be thwarted by a friendly board of directors and a few fairly simple machinations. I can relate one simple case (without getting too specific) that surely matches anything in government: One of the busiest people in this company is currently being forced to take jobs to another floor because equipment a few feet away can't be replaced until a management committee decides on the matter (it's routine stuff, by the way...nothing exotic). That won't happen until one committee member gets back from holidays next month. The resulting bottleneck is costing this mid-sized company (conservatively) more than $1,000 per day simply in lost production. Then we have to figure in overtime for the one particular employee with specific expertise who is being run off her feet, and now has to come in on weekends until the situation is rectified.

    The floor manager has decided that it's not worth rocking the boat to get a relatively inexpensive machine replaced on his own authority. Cost to the company: $50,000 at the very least, and a star employee who is already thoroughly pissed off (and the end of the situation a long way off).

    So to all people out there who are quick to claim running a government like a corporation will save money and be more efficient: Every time you put more than a handful of people together in an organization, waste happens. Any efficiencies that are realized by cutting staff to the bone and forcing them to work under draconian conditions has an ugly pay-off down the road, too. In any case, if financial gains are made, they go into the corporation's bottomless pockets, not into saving taxpayer dollars. I haven't even included another difference: government does stuff that is inherently unprofitable, like building roads into towns that would never be able to afford such amenities and such.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:Apples and Oranges by TheSync · · Score: 1

      Private businesses are much better at keeping their failures under wraps.

      From the public, perhaps, but if you are a private company and your competitor is more efficient than you, you lose profitability and may go out of business.

      Thus we have Walmart, the most efficient retailer on the planet, who also pushes efficiency requirements on their suppliers.

      In government, there is little incentive to enhance efficiency. Government budget reductions are rarely related to efficiency, but due to public choice politics. It is true that promises to be efficient may help your political chances of getting more funding, but efficiency track record rarely has budgetary results.

      I'll add that government employees are more difficult to shift job responsibilities to enhance efficiency, or to lay off to reduce costs once efficiencies have been enhanced, because they are more highly unionized than private employees.

    2. Re:Apples and Oranges by arose · · Score: 2, Interesting

      From the public, perhaps, but if you are a private company and your competitor is more efficient than you, you lose profitability and may go out of business.

      If there is a real competitor. If they are more efficient. If everything else is equal.

      That's a lot of ifs, 3 is a particularly uncommon and is in fact undesirable for investors. 1 is horrible for customers if the entry barriers are high.

      And even if all of the above holds true, sort term efficiency is easier to gain by underpaying and overworking employees, not reorganizing to avoid bottlenecks. Reorganization by virtue of new players without encrusted processes bankrupting older players can be hardly called efficient either...

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    3. Re:Apples and Oranges by hyades1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I'm sure you're aware that WalMart makes extensive use of Communist China's slave labour pool. And a lot of that "efficiency" they force on their other suppliers results in off-loading infrastructure costs onto the taxpayer. And let's not forget their practice of keeping employees perpetually under the magic "full-time" level, where they'd get benefits. The cost of those benefits winds up being paid by taxpayers. That's particularly true in the US, where WalMart employees are famous for their reliance on emergency rooms and state health care programs.

      I wonder if you were aware when you chose Wally World as your poster boy that you picked a company that more than almost any other has enriched itself by a particularly pernicious variety of corporate welfare, and an unbreakable liplock on the public teat.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    4. Re:Apples and Oranges by TheSync · · Score: 1

      And a lot of that "efficiency" they force on their other suppliers results in off-loading infrastructure costs onto the taxpayer.

      Uh, why should my employer pay my health care? This happened only because of WWII era wage controls leading to non-cash benefits for medical care being tax deductible to corporations.

    5. Re:Apples and Oranges by TheSync · · Score: 1

      And even if all of the above holds true, sort term efficiency is easier to gain by underpaying and overworking employees,

      If employees are being paid below market wages, they will go to other employers that will pay market wages.

    6. Re:Apples and Oranges by arose · · Score: 1

      The reader is free to imagine another string of ifs, starting with "if there any other employers looking for employees with the given qualifications".

      The reader is strictly advised against directly applying conclusions drawn from theoretical markets, including perfect markets, to real markets.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    7. Re:Apples and Oranges by hyades1 · · Score: 1

      In the civilized world, your employer doesn't pay your health care. That's almost exclusively an American perversion. Nevertheless, it is what it is, and the result of WalMart's practice is to off-load its business costs onto the taxpayer. And it forces its suppliers into a similar, corporate welfare business model.

      --
      I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  49. Re:When people & processes can't be easily rep by HiThere · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One source of the problem is that it takes time to do a replacement. And during that replacement either you run a doubled system for awhile, or you put up with LOTS of interruptions of service that last for unpredictable amounts of time.

    Yes, when you're through with the process, your system is a lot better and less expensive. But the intermediate stage is more expensive, and can last for an unpredictable amount of time. (Yeah, predictions are always insisted upon. But that's a CYA move. Everyone either knows, or should know, that they are basically unpredictable.)

    The obvious best answer is to run a doubled system while the new one is being put into place. Now justify this to the budget committee.

    P.S.: The essential unpredictableness of the time to fix a system being developed is one reason most software projects fail. The normal answer is you take your best guess as to how long a part of the project will take, and double it. This often isn't enough, and doubling everywhere will make the project too expensive to do, so...

    --

    I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
  50. You going to ask vets to submit electronically? by elrous0 · · Score: 1

    A part of the reason they're still using paperwork is that some of these vets are older gentlemen who probably still submit everything hard copy (and hand-written in many cases). Sure, a lot them are younger vets from Iraq and Afghanistan. But I would venture to guess that the majority of paperwork the VA deals will still comes from WWII/Korea/Vietnam vets, who would would raise hell if you tried to tell them they had to submit all their forms electronically. Of course, you could hire data entry people to enter all that data from the hard copies, but that's just adding yet another layer to the bureaucracy, isn't it?

    And, before everyone jumps on me, I'm not saying that all old people are computer illiterate. But we all know that a much higher percentage of them are not nearly as comfortable with computers as the younger folks, and would balk at being told they couldn't submit their paperwork on actual paper.

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    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  51. Patent application by Arancaytar · · Score: 1

    And here I thought at least a few seconds of those three years went into actually reviewing the validity of the patent claims.

    This explains a few things.

  52. 20 hands by Spazmania · · Score: 1

    The real problem is that the manila folder has to pass through at least 20 hands in order to be processed. That way none of them are responsible since any catchable fraud they missed would have been caught by one of the others. Computerizing the manila folder won't solve the 20-hands-irresponsibility problem.

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    Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
  53. What century is HE in? by DieselPup · · Score: 1

    I agree with Kundra, although he's stating the obvious (so who is surprised?). Even so, you'd think the Federal CIO would know what century HE's in. After all, we made such a huge deal of Y2K. But he says, "This is not how to run a modern government in the 20th century," I guess he's going for one century at a time. JR

  54. Too literal by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

    Literally burning? What are you suggesting, that we take literal matches and literal firewood and...? Wait! Are you suggesting that our government is literally overrun by witches?

    (Though it might explain "Newt" Gingrich...)

  55. IT Should Replace the Bureaucratic Workforce by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    It's so easy to think that an entire bureaucracy can be replaced by a well-written database application. Theoretically, of course, this is true. Huge amounts of money can be saved by replacing bureaucratic workforces with IT. The nature of bureaucracy is based in logic, so a direct mapping between a government agency's rules and regulations and a computer program SHOULD be easy and direct.

    Unfortunately, authenticity of computerized records becomes a real problem. Many forms and other paperwork carry legal weight. The bureaucracies require signatures and even notarization sometimes to prove the authenticity of the bureaucratic stimulus. This proves the effort used to prepare the government's response is legitimate, and to protect against fraud. Therefore, as part of the transition, all such paperwork carrying legal weight will have to be scanned, added to the database as both data records and scan images, and proof read for accuracy. This presents a huge amount of work, especially at the federal level where some government agencies are responsible for storing hundreds of forms for each of the hundreds of millions of citizens in this country. The sheer volume of this work makes the transition to IT impossible.

    The biggest problem here is that authentication of electronic records still isn't solved. A look at previous slashdot stories about electronic voting machines will get you up to speed with this issue. People won't trust electronic records if its possible for bad people in the government to monkey around with their filings and benefits.

    Another serious problem involves conflicting bureaucratic rules and regulations, most of which were written by politicians reacting to headline-grabbing situations. If these rules were programmed into the database application, the bureaucratic process would grind to a halt. The computer would flag nearly all the records in the database because of conflicting logic in the rules. Poorly written rules and regulations will create a massive failure state that will make the IT version of a government agency seem like a failure from the beginning. For political reasons, an IT version of a government agency will be placed in jeapardy before the project can get off the ground. Of course, the IT department will NEVER have the authority to solve these problems. All we can do is point out the conflicts, propose meaningful changes, and wait for the politicians who may never make a decision.

    Even if the logical kinks were magically ironed out of the system, there will always be logical conflicts that come up. What about the soldier who was injured while on active duty, and the injury to his neck did permanent damage to his nervous system? He is vulnerable to bouts of pain so severe that he will collapse to the ground and become a complete invalid for the rest of the day until he recovers. He was declared permanently disabled by his civilian doctor, but declared able-bodied by the military doctor. Because of this, both the military and the social security department have denied him disability benefits, he's been separated from the military (honorably), and can't get a job because he can't guarantee that he can finish a shift. The question is, how will the IT version of the bureaucracy handle conflicting inputs (in this case from the doctors) when trying to determine this man's current condition and status?

    Bureaucracies by their nature are always trying to categorize people and things and apply rules to these groups. Unfortunately, there are many occasions when a person or thing doesn't fit into an available category, and other occasions where some people are given special treatment for one reason or another, and this helps create some of the logical conflicts mentioned above. An IT application designed to follow the rules of the bureaucracy won't have the wisdom, the intelligence, or the authorization to create new categories to pigeon-hole these statistical outliers, or to show some flexibility and willingne

  56. Are You Sure You Want Them Efficient? by GREY_LENSMAN312 · · Score: 1

    On some level, I do not want the government to be more streamlined and effective. Wait until they can track your Carbon output, recycling percentage, anything else they want to monitor for taxation or enforcement purposes. The (it will protect the children!)National Data Mining Information Recovery and Response Act of 2017 anyone?

  57. Automation is not the Answer by not-my-real-name · · Score: 1

    I'm taking a class in enterprise modeling and the professor is adamant that most improvements come from improving the process. A clear streamlined manual process can run rings around a well automated byzantine process.

    The key is to take a big picture look at the whole process and then ask why things are done that way.

    One of the examples from class was a process used to procure prototype parts. The process used to take 80 days and people were happy with it. He and a couple of grad students were able to reduce it to 20 days.

    It's mostly getting rid of boneheaded things. One supplier would build a prototype part before building the final part. Why bother building a prototype of a prototype??? If you take a step back, you can start to find things like this and eliminated them.

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    un-ALTERED reproduction and dissimination of this IMPORTANT information is ENCOURAGED
  58. +1 Creepy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Until a couple of hours ago, I had never heard nor read this statement.

    Someone used that as an answer to address verification for me. I come here a couple of hours later, and read the same statement.

    If that gets modded anything, it needs +1 Creepy.

  59. Don't get me started about govt. inefficiencies! by virtualXTC · · Score: 1

    I tried to go to the RMV (DMV everywhere else) to get a duplicate license today, and there wasn't a single center within 30 miles of Boston that had less that 1 hr wait! The Boston office it self had a 2.5 hr wait!!! Moreover, when I got there I had some issues due to a 6 yr old fine that I didn't know about from NJ. For some f-ed up reason I can pay for the duplicate license with a credit card, but the fine had to be paid for in cash. Not knowing I'd have to pay a fine I didn't have cash on me. Here's were things get really F-ed: At that point I'd been waiting for 1hr 40 min to get service (I took a bus to a branch outside Boston), during this time they had closed the gate to the office. Just outside the office was an atm (100 ft away tops), but they wouldn't let me leave to get the cash and come back!!! Now I get to waist another 3 hrs (1 hr in transit) to do it all again on Monday!! Talk about inefficiencies!

  60. +1 for unintended irony by PatPending · · Score: 1

    At the time of this post, the quote at the bottom of the page was: "What sin has not been committed in the name of efficiency?"

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    What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
  61. I disgaree by mahadiga · · Score: 1

    I think Government's primary responsibility is to 'create' jobs and not 'inefficiency'.

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    I'd like to buy homeland for our 10 million people. http://twitter.com/mahadiga