Accidental Wii Suicide

Paul Taylor noted a story that I would have thought to be an April Fool's Day joke a few weeks from now, which makes it only seem more tragic. A 3-year-old shot herself with a gun after mistaking it for a Wii controller.

Comments

Suicide?

[Anonymous Coward]

This is manslaughter. Whoever left a gun near a 3-year-old needs locking up.

Re:Suicide?

[binarylarry]

yeah, because her dad is probably really well right now.

He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail. I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.

I can't imagine how terrible being in his situation would be, sounds worse than jail.

Re:Suicide?

[skgrey]

Absolutely. I am a conceal-carry holder and I have a number of handguns. I also have a one year-old and a seven year-old. I have an electronic safe which all my guns go in, as well as trigger locks. It's called being a responsible gun-owner.

It's also called being a responsible parent, not only for the gun part, but for the Wii part. Who lets their three year-old play shooting games on the Wii? I have a Wii and Xbox360 and my seven year-old does not play violent games. Any games which have any possibility of bad content which he plays are played with me there. He's a damn smart kid but I want to reinforce the right ideas and right values in him.

This father should be hung. Who leaves a loaded gun in the house, let alone on the table, let alone with kids in the house? And you know what? Kids like guns, even before video game consoles. Even if this kid wouldn't have played Wii she probably would have grabbed it.

Re:Suicide?

[WrongSizeGlass]

yeah, because her dad is probably really well right now.

He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail. I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.

I can't imagine how terrible being in his situation would be, sounds worse than jail.

What if he has more kids? What if it was an illegal gun? This guy needs some jail time.

Whether he feels bad about it or not there should be a severe punishment for this level of recklessness, negligence and stupidity. Just add a gun to that level of child care and it will never end well.

Re:Suicide?

[mjperson]

RTFA

It was an obscure 3rd party controller from overseas that, according to the article, Nintendo had no idea existed. The sheriff's office could barely track it down on the web it was so obscure.

Re:Suicide?

[Pojut]

Chances are very high it was loaded, round in chamber, and with the hammer cocked (and the safety off). The girl was three years old. Are you saying that she had the knowledge (and strength) to make that pistol ready to fire if it wasn't already like that?

Re:Suicide?

[Pojut]

Absolutely. I am a conceal-carry holder and I have a number of handguns. I also have a one year-old and a seven year-old. I have an electronic safe which all my guns go in, as well as trigger locks. It's called being a responsible gun-owner.

Glad to see some other people are...it's getting harder and harder to find people that take the extra steps necessary to keep things safe.

This father should be hung. Who leaves a loaded gun in the house, let alone on the table, let alone with kids in the house? And you know what? Kids like guns, even before video game consoles. Even if this kid wouldn't have played Wii she probably would have grabbed it.

Not just loaded, but with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked back. Unless someone wants to try to convince me that a three year old had the knowledge and strength to pull the hammer back...

Re:Suicide?

[ircmaxell]

Not to mention the fact that if guns are in the household (even if locked up) the kids need to be educated about them. Even if so much as "Don't ever touch them without my direct supervision". And I do think a 3 year old is old enough to be taught that. They may not understand it, but they are old enough to understand consequences. I honestly wonder how many of the child gun deaths are due to the child either being completely unaware that the parent owned one (and hence "found" it and thought it was cool) or wasn't taught anything about it (and hence had no idea about proper safety). My father owned guns when I was growing up. He taught me from day one never to touch them unless he was there with his permission. He taught me never to point a gun at something unless I planned on killing it (It's so ingrained in me, I refuse to play paintball because of it). And he did this while I was REALLY young. Sure, firearms are dangerous. But so are stoves and stairs. I would find it very odd if parents never taught a 3 year old that the stove was hot, or to respect stairs (so they don't fall down). I find it equally odd if parents never taught a 3 year old about simple gun safety if there was a chance that the child would come into contact with a gun. It doesn't matter if it is loaded or not, since all guns are loaded until proven otherwise (And even then, treat them as if they were)...

And I agree 100% that the father should have the book thrown at him. There's no excuse for an accident like this...

Re:Suicide?

[ledow]

"It was proabably the middle of the night, everyone was sleeping. He wasn't thinking, or was thinking that he had put it away far enough, or that he'd wake up before his kid."

And left a loaded, ready-to-shoot firearm in the middle of the room like you would a discarded plate or an old newspaper. There's no excuse. And this is exactly the problem with gun-owning countries - it's the middle of the night, everybody's sleeping, he hears a sound, panics, he's ***not thinking*** straight, and ends up aiming at things with a gun... a banging door, a stray animal, a kid trying to get his ball back when his parents won't know (weird, yeah, that's a weird situation, but it happens), a partygoer who's accidentally stumbled into the wrong back yard, a neighbour who's jumped over the fence to see what the strange sound was in his friend's back garden...

It's a gun. It's used to kill things, and only to kill things. Don't ready it unnecessarily, don't leave it lying about, don't carry it unnecessarily, don't use it when you're not confident of your abilities and judgement, and keep it THE HELL out of the way of children, or even your whole family. For some reason people seem to think less of that than if he'd left an upturned lawnmower, with the safety features dismantled, turned on and plugged in, in the same room. To be honest, I'd have had a LOT more sympathy for the guy in question if the child had done something with a dismantled lawnmower rather than a gun... at least he *could* have a nearly-plausible reason for having the thing sitting in his house in that kind of state.

Even if we take the "home defence" argument - the pillock left the gun downstairs, with ammunition in it after his initial fears were calmed. If there *had* been someone in the house that he didn't see, he's just handed them a free deadly weapon with which to kill him.

Re:Suicide?

[Spazztastic]

Whether he feels bad about it or not there should be a severe punishment for this level of recklessness, negligence and stupidity.

Exactly. Using that judgment, every person who recklessly drives and kills someone should be let off the hook because "they feel horrible about it." The same analogy can be used for any other situation where someone feels remorse for their actions.

Re:Suicide?

[skgrey]

It's fairly common to chamber a round when you are carrying, especially concealed. I don't carry with a round in the chamber, as it too dangerous and too easy to snag the trigger and shoot yourself. Many current gen guns have a "palm safety" where you have to be gripping the gun correctly, which applies force to a pressure pad on the back of the grip and allows the trigger to be depressed into the firing position. Still though, too risky in my mind.

My best educated guess is that what happened was that the little girl was holding the gun upside-down and looking down the barrel, with her thumb looped through the trigger. Basically imagine holding a gun where the barrel is directly up in the air, and you've got your thumb against the trigger and are holding the bottom of the grip with your fingers wrapped around it. She squeezed to hold it tight, as it natural to do in that position, and shot herself. I've read a few cases of this position in holding the gun causing this accident. It's absolutely terrible.

Re:Suicide?

[GungaDan]

To be fair, the father left the gun, but the mother was in the room with the child and the gun at the time of the accident, sitting at her computer. There's plenty of negligence to go around here.

Re:Suicide?

[Spazztastic]

Not to mention the fact that if guns are in the household (even if locked up) the kids need to be educated about them.

That requires parenting, and that's far too much work for most people it seems. They would rather use a scapegoat like the Wii, violent videogames, and music instead of taking responsibility for their actions.

It's a horrible situation where someone innocent lost their life, but it's even worse when justice isn't made.

The law should have gray areas, but there's nothing that should keep this man from facing some charge, even if it is to remove his second amendment rights.

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

There's a loaded Glock 17 and EAA Witness in .40 on my coffee room table right now. One or both of them is always near me or on my hip.

Because you never know when it's needed. The only time it's "unnecessary" to have some form of self defense handy is when you're already dead.

Re:Suicide?

[netsavior]

but a S&W semi-auto .380 does.

Re:Suicide?

[Vectormatic]

i'm just wondering which war-torn 3rd world country you live in to need 24h firearm-level self defense...

Re:Suicide?

[Pojut]

I'm quite aware of that, but the .380 caliber Smith & Wesson that (according to TFA) the child shot herself with certainly does.

Re:Suicide?

[mweather]

A lack of remorse is often used as a reason for harsher punishment, why shouldn't feeling remorse be a reason for lesser punishment?

Re:Suicide?

[twidarkling]

Lesser? Yes. None? No. Jail time (no more than 2 years) and revocation of firearms licence. That's what I'd say.

Re:Suicide?

[Asclepius99]

But what about his other child? Or the fact that the mother was within three feet of the 3 year old girl as she shot herself? Come on, criminal charges need to be filed and these people need to have their other child taken away from them. I support the right for people to own guns, but they need to take responsibility for what they do with them.

Re:Suicide?

[berashith]

This is an issue of deterrence. The person involved in this case is already suffering enough , but the other people who dont think about gun safety need to know that carelessness leads to accidents leads to severe punishment.

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

I disagree. A little switch doesn't do anything a little education doesn't do better.

Re:Suicide?

[TheLink]

I have a question: how much strength does it require to fire that gun?

Can a 3 year old do it in the manner the mother described?

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

America.

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

Who's scared? I simply admit that shit happens, and am prepared to deal with shit happening to me.

Re:Suicide?

[blackest_k]

Do you really think any amount of jail time is worse than the heart tearing pain caused by the loss of a child through your own fault? I'd say he wishes his son killed him instead right now. Jail time is going to do nothing.

The mistake your making is the assumption that a person who leaves a loaded firearm around a 3 year old child gives a crap.

He should receive a heavy custodial sentence not to make him feel bad, but as an attempt to get people to take a little more care over where they stick their firearms. This idiocy needs to be stamped on hard when ever it occurs even when the end result is the death of a small child.

Re:Suicide?

[Zantac69]

i'm just wondering which war-torn 3rd world country you live in to need 24h firearm-level self defense...

I have a similar setup...and I live in war-torn Atlanta, GA.

Re:Suicide?

[killmenow]

So let me break it down like this:

1. The parents purposefully sought out a rare game controller that looked like a real gun FOR THEIR THREE YEAR OLD DAUGHTER

2. Then the father LEFT A REAL LOADED GUN that looked eerily similar to the kid's game controller (by fucking design, I might add) ON THE COFFEE TABLE which is probably EXACTLY WHERE THE FUCKING THREE YEAR OLD KID TYPICALLY LEFT HER GAME CONTROLLER.

3. Then they are shocked and surprised she picked it up and fired it.

I generally would not advocate taking children from their parents but somebody might want to think long and hard about the wisdom of leaving the 1yr old in the care of parents so f**ed up it's not even funny.

Re:Suicide?

[twistedsymphony]

What if... you RTFA

Cheyenne's stepfather, Douglas Cronberger, 32, owned a semi-automatic pistol that he normally kept in a secure location, out of the reach of Cheyenne and the couple's 1-year-old child, Ashe said. But after taking it out to investigate a possible prowler, Cronberger left it on a table and forgot about it, officials said. When Cheyenne fired the gun, Ashe said, her mother, Tina Ann Cronberger, 32, was within three feet of her child.

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

Keeping your finger off the trigger works better than relying on a safety.

Re:Suicide?

[dintech]

First of all, it's not her father, it was her step-father. Secondly, something doesn't feel right about this. There just happened to be a fully loaded gun with a bullet in the chamber that's exactly like a rare wii controller. If the mother was just 'three feet' from her child when it happened, didn't she notice her climbing up on to the table and struggling with the heavy metal gun? He just happened to be investigating a prowler?

I'm not saying this wasn't an accident but perhaps the adults were more involved than they claim. If I was the police I would be pushing them a bit harder. Ultimately though, what difference does it make.

Re:Suicide?

[schon]

He's an idiot, but I dunno if he really needs jail.

He may not need jail, but he *DOES* need to be disallowed from owning or handling firearm.

I'm sure the loss of his child is punishment enough.

No, it isn't. This guy has proven he does not deserve the right to own a firearm. For the safety of everyone around him, he should be convicted of criminal negligence causing death (or whatever the Tenn. equivalent is) so that he can be banned from owning or posessing a firearm.

Re:Suicide?

[houghi]

If he has another child, the pain and the guild and punishment that he has already felt won't change anything.
If the gun was illigal, that is an entire seperate situation and should be handled regardless of what happend.

Re:Suicide?

[sabs]

He 'forgot about it'?
A semi-automatic pistol?
And her mom didn't notice it?

They both need to be brought up on negligent homicide, and endangerment of a minor charges.
Then let a court of law decide what is the right punishment.

I feel horribly for these people, and even more so for their daughter who is now dead.
That being said.. how the hell do you forget about a semi-automatic pistol?

Re:Suicide?

[HaZardman27]

and, ideally, a ban on firearms in domestic environments.

I'm not giving up my rights because certain assholes are too irresponsible to educate themselves and their families on proper gun safety.

Re:Suicide?

[Enry]

Wearing seat belts, eating healthy, and learning self defense is being prepared. Leaving loaded weapons around the house is a bit more than just being prepared.

Re:Suicide?

[Grimbleton]

Leaving? I'm sitting next to my coffee table. They're under my complete control.

Re:Suicide?

[biryokumaru]

The kind where you're three years old and you don't have a freakin clue what's going on?

Re:Suicide?

[ElectricTurtle]

I concur. I regularly carry an H&K USP that has no safety. Safety is trigger discipline, sight discipline (don't point it at valuable things and treat it as though it is loaded at all times), and storage discipline.

You just can't stop stupid with a switch. Like that one gun safety instructor who thought his gun was unloaded and thought he'd make a point by pulling the trigger with it to his head. It was loaded, and he's dead. You follow all of the rules, all of the time, or someday something will go wrong, and you'll be sorry.

Re:Suicide?

[CapnStank]

When I was young my dad would take me out shooting. He has a couple 9mm handguns that I needed the pointer from both hands to fire, but he had a revolver that I swear I could fire by breathing too hard on.

Re:Suicide?

[ircmaxell]

B) There is no safety, usually, because:

Just to be pedantic. There are safeties. They are just not "manual" safeties. There is a safety that disconnects the sear from the firing pin when the slide travels back a certain amount. There is a safety that blocks the firing pin from hitting the round in the chamber unless the trigger is depressed a certain amount. Sure, neither of these prevent a round from going off when the trigger is pulled, but they do prevent a dangerous firing of the weapon (A firing without the slide fully closed, or a discharge when the gun is dropped). BUT, I also disagree with the argument that a DAO gun can't be easily fired by a 3 year-old. Sure, some DAO's have significant trigger pull weights (some as high as 10 lbs or so, like my Kahr that has an 8lbs pull). But some are nearly as "easy" as a single action (I've seen pulls as low as 3lbs for a DAO, where a typical "hair trigger" SA would be around 1 to 2 lbs). It all depends on the firearm. I had a Taurus DAO that had a 3 lbs trigger pull. But the difference, is it had 2 manual safeties (one traditional lever, and a "key" that locked the slide and hammer from moving)...

Re:Suicide?

[cbiltcliffe]

So you want to punish him for what some other completely unrelated people _might_ do?

Yeah....that sounds like a country I want to live in......

Re:Suicide?

[thegnu]

You can adjust the trigger resistance. It's generally inadvisable to lower the resistance past a certain point, because it makes it more likely it will go off from bumping against things, but I think it's likely enough that a guy who leaves a gun out with his toddler around is liable to have the trigger resistance questionably (if not illegally) low.

I am by no means an expert, but I live in a mother-in-law apt in the back yard of a gun lover.

Re:Suicide?

[rvw]

The stepchild is the one that aimed the gun at herself. Seriously, even if it were a toy gun... what kind of game was she playing?

I've seen kids point a toy gun at themselves, just because that was the easiest way to fire it, with their thumb, not their index finger.

Do you think a three year old knows what a gun can do? Even if she has seen it being fired? No way that they realise what will happen. Plus they don't have a clue what death means.

Re:Suicide?

[Saint Fnordius]

After reading the article, I have to respectfully disagree about this case. It does seem like this is criminal negligence on the part of the stepfather as well as the mother. They neglected to teach their child about the dangers of firearms, and by letting it play with a realistic toy made the situation worse by making it seem harmless. This is on top of the grossly negligent way the firearm was left loaded and unsupervised.

Still, I don't think further punishment is necessary because it won't have any preventative effect. The guy isn't likely to make that mistake again, and the chance that prosecuting him will scare others into being more careful is also just not there. But yes, investigate, find out what went wrong and how to avoid a repeat.

Re:Suicide?

[Tim C]

No, the correct analogy would be every person who recklessly drives and kills their child should be let off the hook.

Killing a stranger would make me feel horrible; killing my daughter? I can't even begin to imagine.

Not saying that I agree with the original assertion, but your analogy is a little off.

Re:Suicide?

[ircmaxell]

Well, I think it's more of a case of "the few spoil the bunch". As in the majority of gun owners are "good ones" (the ones you don't hear about on TV or in the news)... From wikipedia: "About half of the adult U.S. population lived in households with guns." So that's around 100 to 150 million people (depending on your definition of "adult population", and "about half"). Out of that number, how many of these issues do you hear of (Sure, not all cases of negligence will make the news, but how many cases of sound parenting and responsibility will make the news)?

Re:Suicide?

[FatAlb3rt]

Will you be touting the same line if you accidentally kill someone by [insert any potentially dangerous daily activity here]? There's lots of things we do every day that could result in the death of someone else AND we knowingly do it.

Re:Suicide?

[xaxa]

What happens if you don't have both hands free so you can chamber a round while fending off an assailant with the other hand?

If they don't have a gun, run away. Or hit them.

If they do, give them your money/car/whatever rather than put your life at significant risk.

Re:Suicide?

[geminidomino]

So you want to punish him for what some other completely unrelated people _might_ do?

Yeah....that sounds like a country I want to live in......

If you're in the US, it's a country you DO live in.

Right or wrong, this guy is fucked. The Mrs. Lovejoys will see to that.

Re:Suicide?

[amplt1337]

Really? From the sound of it I was thinking Detroit.

Re:Suicide?

[t0p]

However, in nearly all cases, the purpose of putting someone in prison is to rehabilitate the convicted criminal so (s)he can become a productive member of society again and not do the same (or similar) bad thing again.

Oh really? Where's that? Where I live (UK) and where most of this site's users reside (USA) the primary purpose of prison is to punish. Then there's the desire to keep criminals away from law-abiding society. Once all that's been addressed, the courts and gaolers may give a thought to rehabilitation.

Re:Suicide?

[InsaneProcessor]

I am a gun owner. This guy needs to be locked up for the rest of his life because he is an idiot. I do not leave a gun loaded in the house. Easy to load yes, but not loaded. I don't have any children that young and both of my kids shoot with me. All of my guns are always secured, even after intruder checks.

Re:Suicide?

[Saint Fnordius]

That is just fantasy. If you get into that situation where your weapon is not ready and your opponent is grappling, then trying to draw it only raises the risk of yourself getting shot in the scuffle. The deterrent purpose of the gun is already gone, since (in your scenario) you are already under attack, and there is also a significant chance that the assailant could snatch the gun from you.

Now step back, and reflect again: a gun serves primarily as a deterrent, which means it does not need to have a round chambered. Secondly, if you do need to fire it, it is a trivial act to chamber a round. Thirdly, if the weapon does end up in the hands of a person who plans to use it against you, then you have a few more seconds to react since the other person will try to fire on the empty chamber to his or her frustration.

Re:Suicide?

[CrimsonAvenger]

I have a question: how much strength does it require to fire that gun?

What I want to know is why the safety wasn't set on the gun.

I'm also vaguely curious as to what sort of shooting game the kid was playing that involved pointing the gun at himself....

Can a 3 year old do it in the manner the mother described?

Not unless the gun was modified a bit, or the three-year-old was a teeny little Hulk Hogan. Trigger pull on otc firearms is high enough that your average small child won't be firing it.

Re:Suicide?

[ArsonSmith]

Yea, I could understand forgetting about a loaded and primed muzzle loader, but a "SEMI-AUTOMATIC" Pistol!!! (big scare quotes)

Sorry, you obviously have no idea what that means. I don't know of any pistol made for home defense that is not semi-automatic.

Re:Suicide?

[amplt1337]

The distinction being that Detroit is one of maybe three or four small parts of America where that level of caution might be kind of justified.

However, Pittsburgh probably is too, so okay, fair enough.

Re:Suicide?

[Big Smirk]

If the handgun was cocked, it wouldn't take much force at all.

Bottom line, idiots who leaved cocked, and loaded weapons laying around are the issue (it doesn't even matter if there are kids around or not). He fails the gun safety IQ test.

Careless? There are many things in life you should never be careless about - firearms is one of them.

Re:Suicide?

[WrongSizeGlass]

a semi-automatic pistol that he normally kept in a secure location

I'd say that to the police too if I was so f'ing stupid as to leave a gun out for a 3 year old to find. What do you expect him to say, "I've left it on that table 100 times before and this never happened"?

Re:Suicide?

[kripkenstein]

the chance that prosecuting him will scare others into being more careful is also just not there

Why not? Seems like a classic case for deterrence to work, at least if you believe deterrence in general is a worthwhile concept. What am I missing?

Re:Suicide?

[Lunix Nutcase]

And when you are careless with your car and you accidentally kill someone you are rightfully arrested and convicted for vehicular manslaughter.

Re:Suicide?

[Richy_T]

Even if guns aren't in the household, kids need to be educated about them. A fair chunk of the incidents that occur are when kids visit friends houses which do have guns and don't know how to properly behave if they come across them.

Re:Suicide?

[Beardo the Bearded]

I had to look it up too. I've never seen such a thing. Apparently it's called a "Wii Auto Pistol" and it's a 3rd-party attachment. You put the Wiimote in, and it makes it look somewhat gun-like. I suppose this lets you feel like you're actually inside CoD or RE4.

Nevertheless, this had nothing to do with a Wii. This was a careless gun owner who left a loaded handgun where a toddler could reach it. I've got kids this age. You don't leave cutlery or crayons out where they can reach it. They don't have any intent or understanding of consequences at that age. Sadly, it appears that the stepfather doesn't either.

Re:Suicide?

[Lumpy]

So how did she turn off the safety? Or did the idiot have a loaded gun with safety off in reach of a child.....

Re:Suicide?

[geekoid]

He should be convicted of felony manslaughter.
Wave his jail time, but the felony means he can no longer own a fire arm.

Clearly he isn't responsible enough to own one.

Re:Suicide?

[geekoid]

He shouldn't be allowed to own guns any more.

Re:Suicide?

[Lumpy]

ANYONE that knows anything about firearms already knows that you store unloaded, with a trigger lock or in a locked box and with the safety on.

Only he uneducated idiots say they have to keep it loaded and ready for home defense. I can open my lockbox, load the clip and be ready to fire in 12 seconds from the time I am awakened in bed until I hit the floor. I buy the right tools for the use http://www.safetysafeguards.com/site/402168/product/GV1000CDLX

Anyone that owns a handgun and does not keep it locked up is a disgrace to gun owners everywhere.

Re:Suicide?

[geekoid]

Based on what we know, I agree with revocation of the firearms license.

What we know:

A gun was left unattended.
A 3 year old child picked up the gun
The 3 year old shot herself.

The owner of the Gun needs to he held responsible for what happened.

Re:Suicide?

[modecx]

I tend not to leave things that are *intended* to be used as murder weapons lying around. I don't know about the grandparent poster.

A gun isn't intended to do anything but push a projectile out of a barrel. If they were actively designed to be murder machines, the engineer responsible should be taken out and shot, because they have failed miserably. After all, billions of rounds of ammunition are expended by Americans every year, and only a tiny fraction of those are ever used to injure another person. Why, if you look at it that way, guns have to rank among the least effective murder machines ever devised...

Guns are dangerous items, sure enough, and that's why responsible parents do their best to segregate their young'ns from them as well as all other potential sources of danger--at least until the child reaches an appropriate age to handle the danger responsibly.

The fact is, the parents in this story were just as likely to leave the kid in the bathtub to drown or scald to death (as many hundreds do each year), to be strangulated by loose cords, or to leave them un-guarded from electrocution by uncovered outlets, falling to death out of open windows, or from being scalded to death from the pasta cooking on the stove.

Re:Suicide?

[Wyatt Earp]

Illegal search and seizure. How about a no-knock warrant served on the wrong address where they come in shooting? Just the knowledge that the population is armed so the government has to be wary of the population proves that civilian firearm ownership is a deterrent to overstepping.

Up where I live, firearms are good for keeping the wildlife at bay.

Re:Suicide?

[coaxial]

ANYONE that knows anything about firearms already knows that you store unloaded, with a trigger lock or in a locked box and with the safety on.

Unless you're the NRA.

In an emergency, a trigger lock can handicap a person who needs a gun for protection.
While firearms kept only for hunting, target shooting or as collector`s items should be stored unloaded, firearms kept for personal protection may be better stored ready for use. Some trigger lock manufacturers recommend that their products not be used on loaded firearms.

Re:Suicide?

[amorsen]

Why not? Seems like a classic case for deterrence to work, at least if you believe deterrence in general is a worthwhile concept. What am I missing?

If losing a child doesn't scare a criminal into not committing a crime, what do you think will do it?

Re:Suicide?

[debrain]

Because you never know when it's needed. The only time it's "unnecessary" to have some form of self defense handy is when you're already dead.

Sir —

I've been to many dangerous places around the world, and on numerous occasions I have been in situations where my life has been threatened. However not once have I been in a situation that would have been improved by my possession of a loaded handgun. Similarly, I've trained people in the special forces in hand-to-hand combat, but not once have I ever felt a need to resort to such skills in a threatening situation. That being said, I believe it's better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it – but more often the capacity for force is merely a facade that lulls people into a false sense of security, depriving the well-armed person of a defence that would actually save them: wits. Wits are an unparalleled form of self defence, and they compare decidedly well to force in their ability to protect one in the most dangerous and unpredictable of situations and in the relative absence of collateral damage.

Re:Suicide?

[Anonymous Coward]

The gun was a smith and wesson .380 automatic. The child is more than capable to playing with it and turning off the safety, remember they are designed to flicked off with the push of a thumb. As for pointing it at herself, depending on the trigger pull she may have had a hard time pulling the trigger on it or even just lifting it (a fully loaded pistol is kind of heavy to a toddler) and was fumbling and turned it on herself, this is a 3 year old child, it isn't like she put it against her head and pulled the trigger with one hand.

BTW, people could bother to read the article, most of the questions in the first few responses show that few did, it was a 2-page article that answered a lot of questions posed. Also, think just a little bit, yes it is horrible this happened but if you have kids, I do not care who you are, you are not at your top form 100% of the time. Accidents happen and sometimes they are horrifying and terrible accidents that end in death.

Oh and how exactly does one teach a 3 year old about the dangers of firearms when they are still working on the basics of action and consequence as well as physical coordination? She can't pick up an open top cup and not spill anything from it reliably, but take her out and shoot something with it and she'll understand the concepts of death, danger and damage...

Re:Suicide?

[element-o.p.]

Trigger pull on otc firearms is high enough that your average small child won't be firing it.

Really? Are you sure about that? I own several guns, and have shot several more. None, AFAIK, have been modified after purchase; the trigger pull is as it was set at the factory. Some of them have trigger pulls that require a decent pull; others have very, very light trigger pulls -- such that yes, a small child could shoot them. I have a 9mm that has a rather hefty trigger pull if it is not already cocked, but when shot single-action, has a relatively light trigger pull. I now own my dad's old .22 rifle that he used to let me shoot when I was about three (with his help, of course). The lightest of the bunch is my .300 Win-Mag rifle, which would probably fire if you sneezed near it.

And yes, for the record, I keep them locked so my daughter can't get to any of them.

Re:Suicide?

[ptbarnett]

What I want to know is why the safety wasn't set on the gun.

It looks like the firearm in question is a S&W .380 Sigma. It is "double-action" only: each pull of the trigger draws back the hammer to fire. There's no external safety.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smith_&_Wesson#Sigma_series

I haven't been able to find anything that indicates the weight of the trigger for that gun. I'll venture that it's probably about 6-8 pounds, but some DA guns are as high as 13 pounds.

I'm also vaguely curious as to what sort of shooting game the kid was playing that involved pointing the gun at himself....

As you and several others have mentioned, it's unlikely the child would be able to pull the trigger with her trigger finger. And I suspect that's what happened: The child picked up the firearm by mistake and tried to pull the trigger. When it didn't work, she fumbled with it and pointed the firearm at herself as she pulled the trigger with her thumb.

Re:Suicide?

[Lumpy]

You are stupid. and need to not be allowed to have a gun.

unless you live in cracktown and have a home full of crack AND a sign outside advertising the crack is inside you will NOT get a suprise stampede that you need to gun down instantly. You will have a LOT of warning before you need to pull a trigger to defend yourself. Even in a situation where you have them at your door trying to kick it in you have time to grab the clip, slap it in and cock the gun and have time to take a deep breath and get in a kneeling position to fire more accurately.

only complete idiots think they must be loaded, and ready to protect themselves. Even the military in a war zone will kick your ass if you go walking around with a gun ready to fire and you are not in an active mission where you are kicking down a door. at minimum you need the safety on even in a HOT zone on guard.

Re:Suicide?

[Totenglocke]

Except that this isn't just "a person was careless and left a gun where a kid could reach it". The mother was THREE FEET AWAY and there's absolutely no reason that she didn't see it. Given the fact that I've shot guns, I agree that it's HIGHLY unlikely a kid that small could pull the trigger. I wouldn't be surprised if the mom did something stupid and accidentally shot the kid and then claimed that the kid did it on their own. That's a hell of a lot more plausible than a 3 year old shooting themselves.

Re:Suicide?

[Stick32]

honestly this doesn't sound like a question of the child mistaking the gun for a Wii controller at all. This sounds like the father left the gun out unsafe and unsecured where they're young child who didn't know any better could reach and play with. It sounds like they are just looking for a reason/excuse to blame someone else for what is CLEARLY and SOLELY THEIR FAULT.

Re:Suicide?

[JWSmythe]

    The article said that it was a S&W 380. I don't know that specific weapon, but I know most of the 380's are pretty small weapons with pretty easy triggers. Kids can be stronger than you think. My 3 year old can squeeze my hand harder than it would take to fire most of my weapons. Not that she gets to shoot any. She's been taught not to play with anything that looks like a gun. When she's older, she will be taught proper handling and use. Until then, she knows not to play with them, just like she isn't suppose to touch the stove or play with knives.

    I was first introduced to weapon handling when I was about 8. Before that, they were kept well out of reach. Even after that until I was 16, they were kept away from me, except when we were going to the shooting range.

Re:Suicide?

[BJ_Covert_Action]

They also get raped and stabbed pretty regularly. I know a few folks who are prison guards. Despite all the perks you list, I would rather live my (according to you) less glamorous life on the outside where I am not going to get shivved for looking at someone the wrong way.

Make no mistake about it, prison in the USA sucks for the most part. It's not a rehabilitation program. For many folks, its a death sentence, whether that's what the courts ruled their punishment to be or not.

Cheers.

Re:Suicide?

[plague3106]

You'd have a point if that were always true, but its not. Neglegent != careless. Oh and charged != convicted. You really think ever manslaught charge involved a car results in conviction?

Re:Suicide?

[DJ Particle]

I've lived in a high-crime area and been the victim of a home invasion.

12 seconds is WAY too much time to "be ready to fire".

Re:Suicide?

[CompMD]

I'm glad it works well for you. In case you were unaware, the US is more than 10 cities whose names everyone knows. For those of us who live in the great expanse that is the midwest, the nearest police officer is often many, many miles away. Yes, I'll sit around waiting for that police officer to arrive while a burglar who decides he doesn't want a witness bludgeons me to death with the crowbar he used to break in, that sounds like a great idea!

No. My safety in my home is my responsibility, plain and simple. If I can facilitate it with my Tokarev or HK91, so be it.

Your choice of the phrase "wild west" is interesting; much of the midwest and west *is* still quite sparsely populated and effectively "wild."

Re:Suicide?

[srmalloy]

What about an individual's right to defend him/herself? Call the cops. It works very well for us.

Which is a good and noble concept... except that the police are under no obligation to provide protection to any given individual. See Warren v. District of Columbia, 444 A.2d 1 (D.C. Ct. of Ap., 1981). Two women were upstairs in a townhouse when they heard their roommate, a third woman, being attacked downstairs by intruders. They phoned the police several times and were assured that officers were on the way. After about 30 minutes, when their roommate's screams had stopped, they assumed the police had finally arrived. When the two women went downstairs they saw that in fact the police never came, but the intruders were still there. As the Warren court graphically states in the opinion: "For the next fourteen hours the women were held captive, raped, robbed, beaten, forced to commit sexual acts upon each other, and made to submit to the sexual demands of their attackers." The three women sued the District of Columbia for failing to protect them, but D.C.'s highest court exonerated the District and its police, saying that it is a "fundamental principle of American law that a government and its agents are under no general duty to provide public services, such as police protection, to any individual citizen."

Or Castle Rock v. Gonzales, 545 U.S. 748 (2005). Jessica Gonzales had a restraining order against her estranged husband Simon limiting his access to their three children. He abducted them, and Gonzales repeatedly phoned the police for assistance. Officers visited the home. Believing Simon to be non-violent and, arguably, in compliance with the limited access granted by the restraining order, the police did nothing. She sued the Castle Rock police department and won a judgement of $30,000,000. By a vote of 7-to-2, the Supreme Court ruled that Gonzales has no right to sue her local police department for failing to protect her and her children from her estranged husband; the local officials had presented a history of court decisions that found the police to have no constitutional obligation to protect individuals from private individuals. In 1856, the U.S. Supreme Court (South v. Maryland) found that law enforcement officers had no affirmative duty to provide such protection. In 1982 (Bowers v. DeVito), the Court of Appeals, Seventh Circuit held, "...there is no Constitutional right to be protected by the state against being murdered by criminals or madmen."

It works very well for you? Try suing the police for failing to protect you if you get robbed, assaulted, or burgled, and see just how much responsibility the courts say the police actually have to protect you.

Re:Suicide?

[Just Some Guy]

We have two simple gun rules in my house:

1. If you ever want to look at or shoot a gun, ask me. It's no big deal. I'll get one out of storage, we'll look at it together, you can try shooting it, then it goes back into storage. Guns aren't a taboo, or an exciting forbidden fruit. They're just another tool, like a hammer or saw.
2. If you ever touch a gun without an adult present, in my house or anywhere else, you will regret the day you were born. If you find a gun, tell an adult immediately and do not touch it or try to move it.

That's it. They have unlimited gun privileges in my presence, so there's no fascination. As a result, none my kids are particularly interested in them.

Re:Suicide?

[aaandre]

What additional lesson will criminal charges add to the lesson he already learned?

How does such punishment and taking the father away along with his income improve the family's situation?

I understand that in the USA correctional system = punishment + retaliation + sadism + exploitation, but even then, who's retaliating in this situation? He is also the victim. His child was killed.

Don't follow your logic.

Should be punished, should be shamed, should be burned... Not constructive.

Re:Suicide?

[tsm1mt]

"What I want to know is why the safety wasn't set on the gun. "

What do you define as a "safety"? In the case of many Glocks, and at least the S&W Sigma line (which you could get in .380), the safety IS the trigger.

There's a sort of double trigger employed. As you pull the trigger part way, it releases the safety, and as you finish pulling the trigger, the weapon discharges.

The "safety" aspect here is to prevent accidental discharge through dropping, or hitting, or any number of things OTHER THAN ACTUALLY PULLING THE TRIGGER.

Many places consider this "safer" than something like a 1911, which would be carried "cocked and locked" and thus is more "dangerous" despite having a manual safety switch as well as a grip safety that would've made it quite challenging for a 3 year old to actuate (you have to get your hand around the grip and still have a long enough finger left to reach the trigger at the same time).

The weapon's safety is not what failed here, it's the first safety, which is usually located just above your shoulders, but is absent in some models - and it seems more and more models are missing this key component these days.

Re:Suicide?

[Starteck81]

I'm sure I must be misunderstanding you. If the safety is engineered such that a 3-year-old child can discharge the weapon in any case, then it's not a safety.

A safety on fire arms are meant to keep the gun from discharging when dropped, de-cocking or while being unloaded. They are not meant to keep kids from discharging fire arms, that is what gun locks and safes are for.

Re:Suicide?

[PDAllen]

That really is an exceptionally ridiculous situation to be in. If you cannot call police and expect that they will come, why bother with a police force? I'm well aware that sometimes it may take an hour for the police to arrive because there is some distance involved, but to not bother coming at all..? Another reason not to visit the US, though at this stage I don't really need more reasons.

Re:Suicide?

[Moridin42]

That.. isn't even close to any of the rules.

Relying on a manually operated switch to protect you from poor firearms handling is dumb. A manual safety is a part of a machine, and like any part in any machine, it can fail to function.

This is on top of the fact that Glock, Walther, Smith & Wesson, Heckler & Koch, Beretta, Sig-Sauer, Taurus and Steyr all make pistols without safety switches. And that isn't even an exhaustive list of manufacturers.

Re:Suicide?

[swillden]

I have a range a block from my house, and I go there a lot. They have a "cop range" that the local ordinance uses and I have a lot of cop friends, so I shoot on that range a lot, and we've had this conversation and done some tests.

Do any of your cop friends carry without one in the chamber? I don't know any cops that do that.

Modern handguns are very reliable, and they're designed so that it's impossible to fire one without pulling the trigger. With a decent holster to protect the trigger, there is no possibility of a discharge. One thing I recommend to people who are uncomfortable with carrying hot is to carry their sidearm with the hammer/striker cocked on an empty chamber. Carry that way for a few months and each night when you put your gun away, check to see if it is still cocked, or if it has "gone off".

That said, if you're more comfortable carrying "cold", by all means do what makes you comfortable. When it comes to carrying a deadly weapon, there are a lot of very personal choices to be made and you shouldn't let anyone tell you you're wrong. I just wanted to give you some things to think about :)

(I carry an XD9 sub-compact and/or a Ruger LCP. I carry both with chambered rounds and don't have the slightest concern about either going off without the trigger being pulled, and I use good holsters for both).

Re:Suicide?

[Anonymous Coward]

Something on their badge says: "to serve and protect"

Re:Suicide?

[2obvious4u]

People like you are what is wrong with society today. He has already suffered the consequences of his actions. Unless they can prove that he intentionally left his gun out so that his child would kill herself then no charges need to be filed, nor should they. Shit happens.

By your reasoning every parent who has had a child drown in a pool or at the beach should also be in jail for life.
Any person whose child who gets into the chemicals under the sink (even with child locks on cabinet doors) and dies should be in jail for life.

There are 310 million people in the US, statistically someone was bound to die from a fire arm this year. It sucks it was a 3 year old, but it happens. Some other idiot is statistically going to die falling off a ladder. With such a large sample size your bound to have outliers that suck.

Re:Suicide?

[Starteck81]

Please detail all the circumstances when you have needed to defend yourself from your government.

We're waiting.

You are aware of how the USA came into existence, right?

Re:Suicide?

[Boogaroo]

Open carry deters armed robbery in Kennesaw
Captain Jerry Quan, the Commander for Precinct One, where the Wafflehouse is located, confirmed Matt Brannan's story as one in which the open display of a pistol deterred a well armed robbery crew.

Re:Suicide?

[ElectricTurtle]

I wish it weren't true, but you're right. Carrying is not enough, you have to *think*. There was a man carrying concealed at a mall in Tacoma, WA when a lunatic with a rifle started firing at random people. He thought he was going to be a hero and never thought 'maybe I shouldn't draw in the open while facing somebody who is already sighted-in'. Ugh. Yeah, of course he was shot (not fatally, fortunately). That's why if the same ever happens to me (and I carry all the time), my first thought is not going to be 'draw!' but 'cover!' That should always be the first thought: secure yourself, prepare yourself, assess surroundings, locate and gauge actors (if possible without getting hurt... LOS works both ways, not that I need to tell you that), formulate the best plan of action, then and only then: act.

What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[eldavojohn]

I am so sorry for the Cronberger's loss of their three year old daughter. What a horrible tragedy.

But the fact that there are no charges being pressed enrages me. The article says:

Law Enforcement: If You're a Gun Owner, You Have to Be Responsible

Or what? Someone will shake their finger at you?

Cheyenne Alexis McKeehan was a victim of either neglect, ignorance or willful intent of her stepfather. Which one, no one can ever be sure of. Regardless of the circumstances he improperly stored a loaded handgun in his home in reach of a three year old.

Saying "terrible lapse of judgment" and "be responsible next time" isn't enough for me. This man should be charged with child endangerment so that people take their Second Amendment Rights seriously and responsibly should they choose to exercise them.

Were I a prosecutor, I would push for the jury to see that going through the trouble to find a toy (not regularly distributed commercially here) for your child identical to the loaded handgun that you "happened" to leave on the table one evening is more than suspicious.

If you have children, invest in a home security system before a handgun, folks.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[mcgrew]

But the fact that there are no charges being pressed enrages me.

Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up comitting suicide intentionally, with the same gun. I can't imagine how much this guy's hurting right now.

I'd also betting his marriage is over. Yes, charges of child endangerment could be filed, but no punishment is going to change anything; no punishment that state can inflict will come close to what he's done to himself.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[thue]

This is not what law is for.

The parents have been punished enough by the natural consequences of their own actions. What purpose could it possibly have to add an artificial punishment on top of that?

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[outlander78]

But the fact that there are no charges being pressed enrages me.

Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child. I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up comitting suicide intentionally, with the same gun. I can't imagine how much this guy's hurting right now.

I'd also betting his marriage is over. Yes, charges of child endangerment could be filed, but no punishment is going to change anything; no punishment that state can inflict will come close to what he's done to himself.

I am a parent, and my eyes tear up thinking about a child dying, mine or one I've never met - they are all tragedies. However, in this case the *stepfather* left a gun around that killed a child that wasn't his. He may or may not be suffering, and it should be investigated.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[TheLink]

Since you're talking about breeding etc. I believe the relationship was stepfather and stepchild. Not father and child.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Spazztastic]

I'm just glad it was their child. The real tragedy is when someone leaves out a gun, and their child shoots someone else's child.

That's pretty fucked up, it's still an innocent child with the whole world ahead of her. Don't devalue a life because of poor decision on the parent's part.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[xtracto]

Except he is a stepfather.

Call me "crazy conspiracy theory lunatic" but this is a great plan to get rid of the "TAX" (aggregated "value") that came with marrying this guy wife. Ohh.. I "accidentally" placed my loaded gun in the place where the girl used to play with her toy gun. WTF.

I definitely agree they should press charges against this bastard. He is irresponsible and caused the murder of this girl.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[blind biker]

Were I a prosecutor, I would push for the jury to see that going through the trouble to find a toy (not regularly distributed commercially here) for your child identical to the loaded handgun that you "happened" to leave on the table one evening is more than suspicious.

Yeah. A stepfather wanting to get rid of his/her stepson or stepdaughter isn't exactly unheard of.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[qoncept]

Law Enforcement: If You're a Gun Owner, You Have to Be Responsible

Or what? Someone will shake their finger at you?

Or your daughter might accidentally shoot herself. If punishment is intended to deter or rehabilitate you, what more do you think they really need? Any punishment now would just be for the sake of making these people pay.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Blakey Rat]

He had the gun out because he thought he heard an intruder. That would be the point of owning a gun. The problem is that he left it unattended, and didn't put it away right away.

Honestly? I agree with the authorities that, in this case, the step-father should not be charged. Partially because there's no reason to believe he's less than genuinely devastated by the loss of his child, and partially because the taxpayer expense of a trial isn't going to produce any punishment that will overshadow that.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Spazztastic]

However, in this case the *stepfather* left a gun around that killed a child that wasn't his. He may or may not be suffering, and it should be investigated.

Read the article. Normally the gun was kept in a locked place away from reach by the children. He took the gun out because he thought he heard an intruder. After investigating, he let the gun on the table and didn't put it away immediately.

The weapon should have never left his possession, and he should have at least disengaged the hammer/unloaded it. Owning a weapon is a huge responsibility and just a small amount of negligence can lead to situations like this.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[ShadowRangerRIT]

Link to an appropriate story: the "crime" is somewhat different (I consider it a more excusable crime than leaving a loaded gun lying around), but it's still a case of memory failure, and the fact remains that any accidental death tends to punish the parents incredibly severely; they aren't about to do this again just because they weren't punished the first time.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Alwin Henseler]

If I'm not mistaken, any proscecution should (among other things) also pass a test of "be in the interest of society". I doubt that is the case here. You lock up criminals:

• If it's necessary to protect society from them. Which IMHO would not apply here, since the chance of repeat is, well, 0.
• To serve as example, to scare other potential criminals out of doing the same. Which wouldn't apply here either: as a parent, you'd be scared to leave a gun+ammo around because your kid might hurt/kill someone with it, not because some other fool got 5 years jailtime for doing the same. There's already enough examples that guns+kids don't mix well.

Also jail time would serve as punishment. Hardly a point for that: no bigger punishment thinkable than losing your own 3 year old.

So, no charges (?, left to be decided I suppose) because it serves no purpose, these parents are already punished enough (for the rest of their lives), and resources/court time is better spent on other cases. A thorough investigation to get a clear picture of what happened: yes, that might be useful.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[bluefoxlucid]

Public flogging would be better than the bullshit we do these days. That whole "3 months in jail" thing is a great way to destroy your life; 50 lashes with the tails is pretty brutal, but I can go to work the next day. A few rounds of that and I'd be inclined to stop stealing cars and selling crack... I mean selling crack could be pretty lucrative (what's the normal per-month revenue on that anyway? A couple thousand?) but uh, if I'm going to get whipped every couple weeks 'cause I keep getting caught, I think I can get by without the few extra grand.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Kjella]

Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child.

For the vast majority of parents, yes. Which intersects quite well with the vast majority that won't leave loaded, unsecured guns on a table in the vicinity of small children. What's to say he's not neglectful in gun handling and don't care much in any other way either? This reminds me of an old, old question from discussion groups: If you drink and drive with your best friend and you flip off the road and he dies and you live, is that punishment enough? Our table quite quickly agreed that no, it wasn't. Some other table came to the opposite conclusion, I never understood how. Heartache is really not enough, you can have your heartache in jail.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[L4t3r4lu5]

Stating that it would be worse if the kid shot someone elses kid is not devaluing the life of the child in this case. It's simply stating that in this instance, only one family needs to be torn apart by loss, guilt, and potentially legal repercussions. If the child shot someone elses kid, that could be the end of two families.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[killmenow]

"Didn't put it away immediately" ???

The article clearly reads "...left it on a table and forgot about it..."

He didn't just not put it away immediately, he FORGOT ABOUT A LOADED HANDGUN. Mistakes are mistakes. This rises above mistake and into NEGLIGENCE territory. I would argue going out of your way to buy a toy that looks as much like a real gun as possible for A THREE YEAR OLD is negligence also but certainly nowhere near as bad as leaving a real gun on a table and forgetting it.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[lunatic1969]

Read the article. Normally the gun was kept in a locked place away from reach by the children. He took the gun out because he thought he heard an intruder. After investigating, he let the gun on the table and didn't put it away immediately.

Now I'm even more suspicious. If I think I hear an intruder and I'm concerned enough that I take my weapon and check it out, I'm not just then going to put the gun on a table and walk off. It's staying on me.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[blind biker]

Wait a second there: so now law is not the same for everyone? When did we start making exceptions? Especially for such crimes as homicide (from neglect or otherwise)? The life of that toddler is as valuable as mine or yours. Just because it was her parent (or step-parent) that caused it, does not mean that the law should regard her case differently than any other homicide.

There is a reason why Justitia, the patron and symbol of justice, is blindfolded

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[schon]

Are you a parent?

I am.

There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child.

I don't give a fuck about how bad he feels. He needs to be prevented from doing the same shit again.

He's an idiot who is guilty of criminal negligence causing death. Just because he "feels bad" doesn't mean he'll learn. You can't fix stupid.

I wouldn't be surprised if he winds up comitting suicide intentionally, with the same gun.

Speaking as someone who has suffered with depression and attempted suicide myself, I don't think this would be a bad thing - at least then he won't be able to endanger anyone else.

I'd also betting his marriage is over.

Then you didn't read the article. The child's mother defended him. (And it's important to note that it was *her* daughter, not his - he was the child's stepfather.)

Yes, charges of child endangerment could be filed, but no punishment is going to change anything

You could not be more wrong. If we was prosecuted and convicted, he would lose the right to carry or possess a firearm. That would definitely change something - the chance that this might happen again.

no punishment that state can inflict will come close to what he's done to himself.

It's not about punishment, it's about prevention. The state has a chance to prevent this moron from endangering any other children in the same way. It outrages me that they're not taking it.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[whisper_jeff]

So "feeling bad" about the consequences of an action is reason to have charges dropped? Sorry. No. The degree of criminal negligence in this situation demands judicial action, regardless of just how bad the parents may or may not feel. Remorse may play a role in determining sentencing but it sure as hell has no place in the decision of whether or not charges should be laid.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[MMC Monster]

Also, this is an un-verifiable excuse. Easy to say after the fact. Who knows how long the gun was actually sitting on the table?

Fact of the matter is, a child died due to gross negligence. If it was due to being run over by a car, at the very least there would be an investigation and charges brought up.

This happened in a home. A place of safety.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[plague3106]

I grew up with guns. My dad made sure we knew to NEVER touch them. I also knew he had a loaded pistol kept in a night stand. He told us it was there, and again said to never touch it. We knew it would be serious if something happened.

We also had dangerous chemicals within reach, which we again never touched. Our mom told us it would hurt us and used those mr. yuck stickers to reminder us which ones to stay away from.

You see, there's reasonable reactions, and there is overreactions. Judging the from totally helpless people now bleating about this and that in this country, I think I know where most parents went...

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[c 0xFF]

And what's so shocking is the extensive negligence shown.

He left a loaded, cocked, unattended weapon gun in his house next to a toy gun, where an unsupervised, uninformed 3-yr-old has access to it.

It's surprising how little negligence it takes to cause an accident. It's not surprising that an accident occurred in this case.

Guns should never be loaded in a house.
Guns should never be cocked while loaded unless you mean to fire.
Guns should never be unattended unless locked in a safe.
Fake/toy guns can be easily mistaken for the real thing.
3-yr-olds should be supervised at all times, regardless of whether gun is involved or not.
Children should be taught to respect guns (toy or not)

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[Faerunner]

Why are we ignoring the mother? You know, the one who was 3 feet from her daughter when this happened? Yes, the stepfather left the gun out. If you were in the household would you expect the second adult there to simply shut up and wait for the gun owner to put it away? If it were me, I'd have said something if not put it away myself.

If you want to punish one parent, might as well punish both. Honestly, I wouldn't let them sit in jail - as parent post said they are both probably in a world of hurt right now, if they cared at all about the child. I'd put them in parental counseling though, and remove the 1 year old to a responsible relative for a while until the parents were over their grief and ready to resume care. There is little worse than being in the position of being a child, especially one so young who needs a lot of care and attention, in a home which has just lost a loved one. Even the death of an older adult can cause parents to suffer from depression and stop properly caring for their kids; losing a child is immeasurably painful and can cause serious issues with caring for other dependents.

Re:What a Tragedy and No Charges?

[hey!]

Are you a parent? There's absolutely NOTHING they could do to the guy that would be worse than losing a child.

That's not necessarily true. There are parents who abuse, exploit or even kill their own children. I don't think that's what we're dealing with here. The sheer danger to everyone of leaving a loaded firearm where a toddler can get at it argues for plain stupidity and negligence. But we can't conclude anything by extrapolating from how we'd feel.

I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Did a dog pop up from behind the bushes and chuckle afterwards?

Re:I wonder...

[furby076]

You are so going to hell for that comment...And I hate you for making me laugh....now I'm going with you.

Re:I wonder...

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh, piss off, you goddamn yuppie. A macabre sense of humor is a healthy adaptation to the mad, mad world we live in. It's naive idiots like you and your angry mobs and your knee-jerk emotional reactions that enable politicians to pass laws that fuck everybody over just because one idiot fucked up.

I hope you don't have any kids. I'll bet they turn out to be little crybaby porkers, allergic to everything because they were kept inside like prize housepets, the kind of rotten shits who throw piercing tantrums in public and have to be dragged kicking and screaming to the car just because you didn't buy'em their fifth candy bar of the day.

Re:I wonder...

[InvisiBill]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duck_Hunt

Throughout the game, the player is accompanied by a nameless dog. Before every level, the dog sniffs around a grassy area, then jumps into it barking excitedly when he smells ducks. After that, he either does one of two things for a player: retrieves the ducks a player shoots and congratulates them, or laughs at them for missing (as well as for failing to advance to a higher level). Since then, the nameless dog has passed into video gaming folklore. The dog has become so infamous for his laugh that ScrewAttack rated him first in their "Top 10 Douchebags" list.

Why is the wii controller even mentioned?

[Pojut]

Why is the Wii controller even mentioned in this freakin' story? The kid shot themselves with a loaded gun left laying around by the parent. This has nothing to do with the Wii, and everything to do with some dumbfuck leaving a loaded gun laying around with a three year old in the house. I don't care what you child does for fun, leaving a loaded gun all willy-nilly where the child can reach it is the height of responsibility.

We don't need gun control, we need idiot control.

Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned?

[reiver102]

The Wii is relevant because the kid thought she was going for a control...while it is the parents' responsibility to keep dangerous weapons away from children, it is also understandable that a 3-year old would not know how to differentiate between a real gun and a fake one that looks similar. Sadly, it was two problems that combined to make this tragedy possible. In this case, impossible to blame one without blaming the other, but in the end, blame is pointless, as it won't bring their child back.

Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned?

[Pojut]

Irrelevant (although having guns in the house AND having a controller shell that looks like that is a bad idea). The point here is a moron left a loaded firearm where a kid could reach it. The fact that the kid managed to shoot herself implies that it was left with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked as well...I doubt a three-year-old could do anything with a gun beyond pulling the trigger.

That makes this go from tragic and avoidable to just plain despicable.

Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned?

[delinear]

I think it's more a coincidence that they happened to have a Wii control - kids that age will pick up and investigate just about anything that's left within reach, it's how they learn about the world around them. It's mere conjecture to suggest that she picked it up specifically because she mistook it for a Wiimote, and as the GP suggests, it detracts from the real story which is don't be dumb enough to mix kids and guns (unless you're pointing one at the other while issuing orders to begone from your lawn).

Re:Why is the wii controller even mentioned?

[Culture20]

The idea that she was picking it up so she could play a game on the Wii seems a stretch at best, even if it looked similar to the controller. Hell, even a three year old would be able to tell something wasn't right just by the difference in weight between a plastic game controller and a real gun. The fact that she apparently pointed the gun at her own chest and pulled the trigger suggests she just found a new toy and was screwing around with it...

Or: Gun was on coffee table (where most wii controllers are kept), she walks up to it in such a way that it's pointed at her, she grabs with her thumb on the trigger (thus able to use a much stronger pull on the trigger), and tragedy results. In this scenario, she never had to lift the gun, just depress the trigger. BTW, when a child of 3 realizes something is different, it means "fun fun fun", not "something's not right, perhaps I should exercise caution" They only exhibit caution for instinctual fears.

Shot herself, you mean

[amaupin]

Cheyenne Alexis McKeehan was a girl. Perhaps reading the story, Taco, might have been useful?

Suicide, my ass!

[Rurik]

WTF is wrong with you submitter? This is negligent homicide by the family. They left a loaded, cocked, pistol on a table where a three year old can get it. A three year old does not have a concept of life and death, and does not commit suicide. By throwing around the S-word you're taking the blame off the people it truly belongs to: the parents. People who cannot treat firearms with the respect they deserve should not have them.

Already the news is making an issue out of the fact that it's a Wii-related death. It's not. It's a loaded gun left out in the open. It doesn't matter if the Wii gun "looked" real, it wasn't. You can have a real, pink, Hello Kitty revolver there. It doesn't matter. A loaded and cocked gun was left where a curious child can get it.

Re:Suicide, my ass!

[Kingrames]

I'd also like to ask: Aren't real pistols much much heavier than fake ones? as grim as it may seem, they're leaving out a lot of details on how she was shot. Did the trigger get pulled while it was resting on the table? Was she injured by the kick of the pistol? Did she literally pick up the gun and point it at herself? Some of the possible scenarios incriminate the parents more than others, for certain.

Re:Suicide, my ass!

[ari_j]

All of them incriminate the parents equally. There are a few common sense rules of gun safety which get violated far too often. Obeying them religiously is a good idea. For anyone unfamiliar, here are the utter basics:

1. Treat every gun as if it is loaded - especially if you are certain that it isn't ("unloaded" guns accidentally kill more people than the loaded kind)
2. When handed a gun, double-check that there is not a round in the chamber by visual inspection of the chamber - even if the person who handed it to you had just done that in your presence
3. Never leave a loaded gun sitting out unattended, even for 30 seconds and even if you live alone (it's far better to be in the right habit than the wrong one and forget yourself when you have company or children around)
4. Never point a gun's muzzle at anything you do not intend to shoot - for living beings, at least 45 degrees away, and this rule applies even after you've verified the gun is unloaded

I don't know how a 3-year-old girl was able to shoot herself. But there are many, many types of pistols on the market, some of which are not much heavier than a Wii controller even when they're loaded, particularly those chambered for .22 Long Rifle cartridges. The real point is that it doesn't matter what kind of gun it was or how a 3-year-old was able to mistake it for a Wii controller (which itself is mostly speculation since, had there been any witnesses to the kid's supposed mistaken thought process, you'd think they would have stopped her from playing with a loaded gun at some point before she shot herself). What does matter is that a child is dead because someone didn't follow the most basic rules of gun safety.

How fucking stupid...

[Taibhsear]

Do you have to be to leave your gun out with people in your home, let alone a child? Dad wasn't allowed to do anything upon entering our home after work, not even take off his shoes or coat, until he walked straight to the safe and put his gun away. If he ever forgot, Mom would have kicked his ass out of the house faster than you can say First Post!

Typical /.

[hargrand]

It's good to see that the /. editorial bias is still very much well and truly alive. What's the point of this story (especially posted under games?) if it isn't to exploit one family's tragedy to promote the political ideology of the /. gatekeepers? I guess common decency and good taste are not among their core competencies.

Poor choice of everything.

[Patrick Manderson]

First of all, this wasn't an "accidental suicide", it was an accidental death.

Second of all, putting "wii" in the title is highly misleading and is typical of today's media which is more interested in tabloid journalism, trying to grab everyones attention by assuming all your readers are more responsitive to these kind of headlines.

My respect for Slashdot just went down a few.

Re:Poor choice of everything.

[tekrat]

You had respect for Slashdot?
You must be new here!

Re:Media Hysteria

[bsDaemon]

it was a .380 automatic handgun, not a shotgun. Stupid plastic guns these days do look toy-ish, so its not entirely unreasonable (mine are all wood/steel -- no one is confusing a 1911 .45ACP for a "toy" any time soon, for instance). Not that the media isn't going to get all hysterical over this, but on the other hand, its not that the parents weren't being completely irresponsible with regards to: A) leaving a loaded gun around, and B) letting the kid play so many video games.

However, I do believe the model in question is double-action only, which means requiring a very long trigger pull that ought to be beyond the finger strength limits of a 3-year-old girl, so who knows just how "accidental" this really is.

How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[imag0]

Really? A toddler pulling the trigger of a .380? A toddler?

I smell bullshit.

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[suprcvic]

You clearly don't have access to guns or 3 year olds. I'm not sure what particular model of gun it was, but a quick Google of "Smith & Wesson .380" shows me lots of models without hammers but instead strikers that are always cocked when a round is chambered and since the father had "just been investigating a prowler", it probably had a round chambered. Also, my 3 year old nephew most definitely has the strength to hold the gun and pull the trigger, he does not however have the ability to easily tell real from fake.

It is pretty suspicious to me though that the article says the mother was just 3 feet away. How can one be 3 feet away from both a 3 year old and a loaded pistol and not realize it? And even worse, what in the hell was the stepfather thinking placing a loaded weapon on a table with children in the house? My gun is never out of my control unless it's locked up in it's safe. As with many other posters, this was gross negligence on their part. I'm not sure I agree with a call for criminal charges though as he's got to live with it for the rest of his life knowing his negligence killed that little girl.

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[swillden]

Really? A toddler pulling the trigger of a .380? A toddler?

I smell bullshit.

Good point!

AFAIK, S&W only makes one .380, the Sigma 380. This gun has no manual safety, instead it's a double action-only pistol with a long, heavy trigger pull. An eight to ten pound trigger pull. It's hard to believe that a toddler could have managed that.

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[NitroWolf]

Really? A toddler pulling the trigger of a .380? A toddler?

I smell bullshit.

This was exactly what I was thinking first thing. How the hell can a 3 year old manipulate the multi-pound trigger pull of a hand gun? Their little fingers are even unlikely to reach from the back of the handgrip to the trigger, much less be able to squeeze it.

The only thing I can figure, if this isn't a load a bullshit, is that the pistol was already cocked, making the trigger pull substantially less difficult, and the reason the kid died instead of shooting a hole in the TV was because he was just dicking around with the pistol instead of actually trying to play the game with it... so perhaps had it on the table and squeezed it while already cocked with his thumb and pointed at him.

It just seems like a fantastic series of events to get to that point, especially if the mother "was only a few feet away."

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[ElectricTurtle]

While I'm not certain that the real story is being told here, mostly from the perspective of the gun being unwieldy to fire by a three year old, as the father of an almost-three year old, I can tell you that they don't think about 'weight difference' and think 'different object, handle differently'. If I give my daughter a ping pong ball, she'll probably throw it (and she can throw hard), and if I give her a golf ball, she'll throw it like a demon (which is why I would never put something like that in her hands). All she thinks is 'ball!' and regardless of weight she'll throw it.

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[Mr. Foogle]

I shot my friend's .380 a few weeks ago: a 3-year old has more than enough strength to squeeze the trigger.

Re:How did a 3-year old pull the trigger?

[Mr. Foogle]

Dude. A .380 is a light pistol. I doubt a toddler could chamber a round, but picking one up and pulling the trigger are well within their capabilities.

"Nintendo" and "Wii" in all the headlines....

[mary_will_grow]

... But you have to read the article to see "Smith and Wesson". Unreal.

I can see where the conversation gets muddy when someone commits a violent act after playing violent video games. Not saying anything about that beyond that its at least an interesting topic. But when a TODDLER finds a LOADED GUN ON A COFFEE TABLE and SHOOTS HERSELF WITH IT are we really going to try to blame it on VIDEO GAMES?!?!?!

Re:Blame the Wii!

[lunatic1969]

Don't blame the absurd gun laws that allow every douchebag the "right" to bear arms..

Here in the USA, we have that right here. We value it. I'd recommend living in another country if you can't accept it. That being said, gun ownership is a serious responsibility. My guns, when they aren't physically on me, are in a separate room that has it's own lock with a separate key. Furthermore, a gun is always loaded. Always. That's the attitude you need to have, and I would never leave a gun, even if I thought it was unloaded, where a child could reach it. ...and having a realistic gun controller for a three year old to play with is just flat spooky.

So wait...

[ilsaloving]

Something doesn't make sense.

Firstly, they have a Wii controller that looks like a very realistic imitation of a real gun.

Secondly, this is a controller that you have to actively make an effort to go out, find, and buy, because you would never find it through regular channels.

Thirdly, the father is claming that he had no idea that they owned such a controller, or even any knowledge of what games the child is playing. What the hell kind of game does a 3 year old play that requires a realistic gun controller? Grand Theft Stroller?

Either the parents are grossly incompetent and stupid, or they're incompetent and stupid AND they're trying to mollify their guilty conscience by putting some of the blame on a video game accessory that they should never have owned to begin with.

HER-self

[Vectormatic]

the toddler in TFA is a referd to as shooting herself, not himself...

WTF?

[Stenchwarrior]

From TFA: "The unfortunate thing is that this Nintendo game called Wii had what looks like a solid black, basically automatic-looking type mechanism that operates the game,"

No, the unfortunate thing is that the fucking gun was left out in the first place. Would the child still have shot herself if the gun was left out and they didn't even own a Wii? The anti-gun/anti-vidya game loons are gonna have a field day with this one...

Re:Radiation...

[mcgrew]

Who the hell leaves their gun loaded and out in the open, ESPECIALLY WITH CHILDREN AROUND????

Idiots, obviously. A Jeff Foxworthy quote: A redneck's famous last words: "Hey, Billy Bob, watch this!"

Suspicious Death

[SoTerrified]

I'm with the crew that says this doesn't add up.
1) Stepfather goes out of his way to buy obscure Wii controller that looks like the handgun he owns
2) Stepfather leaves loaded gun on coffee table in the living room, presumably where the Wii controllers sit. (Not in the bedroom, not on a shelf, etc. Even if he's lazy, you would probably leave a loaded gun somewhere other than your living room.)
3) Stepfather leaves the gun on the coffee table with a round in the chamber and the hammer cocked. (This is important because a 3 year old probably wouldn't have the strength to overcome the hammer action and pull the trigger otherwise.)

Too many "coincidences" here. That's all I'm saying.

Darwin award special efforts section?

[Colin Smith]

For those who managed to wipe out their offspring in bizarre and unusual ways.

 

As a responsible gun owner...

[swb]

Let's get this out of our systems: The parents were horribly irresponsible and deserve to be charged with some kind of crime. In most states (including mine) it is a felony to leave a weapon where a minor can gain access to it.

That being said, as a responsible gun owner, I don't like my son to have guns as toys. Toy guns are safe. Toy guns never hurt anybody. Toy guns teach every bad habit that gun safety teaches you not to do. Kids literally think guns are toys and can be handled cavalierly.

From the time he could talk I have drilled my son that when he sees a gun, what does he do? "Run away and tell a grown up." What if your friend wants to pick it up? "Run away and tell a grown up." What if your friend has it first and wants to show you? "Run away and tell a grown up."

Your guns are worthless...

[denzacar]

You're gonna die from a hearth attack or a stroke. Possibly cancer.

Stress does that to ya.

Re:Your guns are worthless...

[Grimbleton]

I'm not stressed, about safety anyhow.

Re:Your guns are worthless...

[RealErmine]

You're gonna die from a hearth attack or a stroke. Possibly cancer.

Stress does that to ya.

You're right. If someone attacked me with a hearth, any guns I might have would be useless.

Suicide? Try murder.

[dtolman]

A 3 year old knows the difference between a real gun, and a lightweight plastic controller. According to the parents, the gun was sitting on the table for a whole day. In a little trailer.

Apparently, loaded, cocked, and with the safety off. And then the little girl pointed it at herself and pulled the trigger? Sounds dubious to me that someone who has spent years with guns doesn't know that you don't point it at yourself.

But even if thats the case it was negligent homicide - you don't forget to keep a loaded, cocked, and ready to fire weapon out for an entire day, in plain view.

I wouldn't be shocked if the autopsy shows no signs of gun powder residue on her hands/arms, and it turns out that the father shot her, and they made up a BS story to cover.

Here's a list

[stomv]

1. A felony gun charge means this man won't ever be able to legally own a gun again. That's a good thing as far as I can tell.
2. More news coverage, which means more reminders to gun owners to be responsible.
3. More news coverage, which reminds society of the dangers of firearms, and helps us continue the debate about "a well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."
4. Remember, it wasn't his child. He was the stepfather. Nearly all parents love their own children with everything they've got. Stepparents -- not so much.

Lots of parents are criminally negligent to children they love. It doesn't change the state's responsibility to society as a whole, as well as to the children in the home. This man will still live with at least one other child (a 1 year old). He's clearly not fit to live in a home with children. Yes Martha, any responsible gun owner will tell you that this situation is absolutely impossible for a responsible gun owner. Left it on a table? Forgot about it? Nonsense. As soon as the threat is mitigated, you return that firearm to a holster, and then to a locked cabinet. No exceptions, not ever.

Re:Here's a list

[ElectricTurtle]

As gun owner and owner's rights activist, even I agree, he should get a felony charge. He should have his firearms confiscated. However I do agree with others saying that he shouldn't get jail time. Give him a suspended sentence.

Re:Here's a list

[Hatta]

So, a man who does not intentionally do anything wrong--no malice aforethought--deserves to be stripped of effective self-defense tools for the rest of his life? Because of a lapse of judgment that will already be haunting him for the rest of his life?

His right to self defense does not override our right to be safe from negligent idiots. He's already shown himself to be too irresponsible to handle a gun. This is one area where it's not ok to learn from your mistakes. You must think ahead about the consequences of your actions. He was unable to do that, and it cost a life. No second chances.

What?

[denzacar]

No shurikens?

Hide in the shadows and throw them at the burglars without showing yourself.
On a plus side - they are silent so you won't disturb the neighbors.
Just remember to buy a meat grinder or two so you can feed the corpses to your pet piranhas.

Just read the story

[L4t3r4lu5]

It took me a few seconds to figure out which was the controller. A picture of the controller, and the model pistol the father owns Granted I'm from the UK and have never seen a gun like that up close, but the realism of that unit is scary.

The dad was an idiot, though. I don't see him recovering. As for it being accidental? I couldn't speculate, but to all of the people saying that a kid couldn't pull the trigger... Kids have two hands, remember?

Re:Gun was owned by STEPfather, not father.

[Culture20]

Divorced guys know ALL about this scenario. The ex's new boyfriend doesn't have the fact that they are his kids programmed into him 24/7

In my experience, ex's new boyfriend has the fact that they are *Not* his kids programmed into him 24/7, by either the kids (tween-teen), or by the mother (if they're single-digit age).

Some people watch too much TV

[moxley]

This man makes a horrible mistake that will likely haunt him and his family forever, and all some of the people here can say is "I'm upset that he hasn't been charged," or "he should be locked up."

Because that's the solution here...For the state to lock the guy up. Yeah, because incarceration has worked so well to fix all of the problems in our utopia called America.

As if jail time going to bring the girl back, or undo what happened.

It was a horrible accident, and yeah, as a gun owner the man should have known better - but accidents happen. People forget to follow proper procedure on occasion, and on this occasion that error led to this accident.

Trust me, if there was anything fishy about this situation or about this guy they would have him locked up.

The parents should be left alone. The LAST thing they need is for the state lock them up after something like this happens - there is no worse punishment than what they are already going through.

Then I am sure we'll have the usual crowd ready to throw all of our rights under the bus with the tired, old, ridiculous "let's ban guns" argument - you know, because criminals that are ready to kill or rob or break every law inm the book will definitely decide to obey a new gun law because.......because why?

The only thing that I would hope for out of all of this is that it serves as a sobering reminder how very important safety and following procedure is when you are dealing with any tool that has the capacity to kill or maim (firearms, vehicles, power tools, electricity, etc)...

In addition to firearms safety, this is as much about home safety and "childproofing" as it is anything else.

Re:Some people watch too much TV

[whisper_jeff]

...but accidents happen.

This isn't an accident. This isn't "whoops, I tripped and bumped into a ladder and accidentally caused a guy to fall and die." This is "whoops, I left a loaded gun unattended within reach of a child." This isn't an accident. This is criminal negligence, at a bare minimum.

You're right. Accidents happen. This is not an accident. To dismiss it as an accident is ... well, it's just sad. Pathetic and sad.

Think before you speak

[groslyunderpaid]

Not citing any legitimate law codes, but a quick search of google relates that in the state of TN there is no law against leaving a gun out and accessible to a child. So before the "why didn't they lock him up" questions fly (too late by now, I'm sure), that would be because it doesn't appear to be against the law.

Search for child access prevention in the page

what Wii game?

[theReal-Hp_Sauce]

OK, so what Wii game involves pointing the gun at yourself? It doesn't sound like much fun (remind me not to buy it). Does the controller even work when you point it at yourself?

The only thing being "used to playing a Wii game" should have taught this child is which end goes forward! And that is should be pointed at the evil brainless beings.

The fact that the Wii is even mentioned at all in this tragedy just boils down to human beings natural instinct to try and deflect some of the blame/responsibility when they screw up.

-hps

Re:Soft trigger, bad safety.

[swillden]

You can modify guns to reduce the trigger pull to nearly nothing.

Not DAO pistols like S&W's .380.

Yes, metal guns are noticeably heavy

The S&W Sigma 380 weighs 14 oz. I think that's the unloaded weight, but five .380 rounds don't add a whole lot.

It's the parent's fault no matter how you look at it, but "never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity," right?

No argument there.

Re:Stupid comment

[berashith]

apparently it wasnt in this case. This is something that could be taught in a gun safety and licensing class. Even when you have a reason to want to handle a weapon, when the potential threat is clear, dont just put the damn thing down and walk away.

What about the situations where a kid is shot but not killed , or the situation where the gun discharges and misses completely? To me, these situations are the same, with a different result. The actions should end with some punishment, not dependent upon the results of the actions.

If you leave a gun where a child can access it, and manages to discharge it, you dont become not guilty of something heinous because you got lucky.

Never rely on a gun safety.

[Estanislao Mart�nez]

What I want to know is why the safety wasn't set on the gun.

There are many rules of gun safety, or rather, many ways of stating the same general principles. A good one is to assume the safety's gonna fail some unknown day, and treat the gun accordingly.

Gun safety involves a lot of redundant measures. If somebody hands you an unloaded gun, you check for yourself to make sure that it really is unloaded. You keep the safety on if you're not shooting it, even if you've already checked the gun's not loaded. You don't point the gun at anybody you're not gonna shoot, even if you've checked it's unloaded and you have the safety on. You don't put your finger in the trigger unless you're gonna shoot right then, even if you've checked that the gun's unloaded and the safety's on. And so on.

So you really shouldn't be asking why the safety wasn't set, because it doesn't matter. You should be asking what happened with all of the other safety precautions that should have prevented this.