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IBM Stops Disclosing US Headcount Data
theodp writes "ComputerWorld reports that IBM has stopped providing breakouts on US employees, closing a door to data that provided insights into the bellwether company's employment shift. In its latest Annual Report, Big Blue only provides its global headcount, and an IBM spokesman confirmed that disclosure of US headcount is a thing of the past. The Rochester Institute of Technology's Ron Hira called the US workforce data critical for policymakers trying to understand the dynamics of offshoring. 'By hiding its offshoring, IBM is doing a disservice to America — through omission the company is providing misleading labor market signals and information to policy makers,' Hira said. Ironically, CEO Sam Palmisano's Letter to Shareholders, which accompanied the Annual Report, touts how IBM's Analytics and 'Smarter Planet' efforts are empowering US government decision-makers. Nondisclosure domestically and abroad seems to be the new rule of thumb for Big Tech, sparking calls for government intervention." IBM laid off about 10,000 US workers last year, and 2,900 so far this year, according to the Alliance@IBM, a labor union.
It would be trivial for those policy makers to order GSA to drop IBM from its vendor list...
...then why are you hiding it?
Companies that operate contrary to the national interest of the countries they operate in, shouldn't be allowed to operate in those countries.
Merchants have no country. The mere spot they stand on does not constitute so strong an attachment as that from which they draw their gains.
--Thomas Jefferson
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
I'm not saying you're wrong but when it comes to US Citizens losing their jobs, yes, the government has a problem with that.
I won't care to elaborate on why that is, but the fact that you seem surprised is a little confusing. It shouldn't be surprising that a government has more of an interest in the health of the job market for its citizens over the job[less] rate of another countries population.
I think ceasing to disclose U.S. employment sends a very clear labor market signal: The off-shoring will continue, probably at a rate much higher than you were thinking or are comfortable with. What more does a policy maker really need to know than "IBM is shipping jobs over seas so fast they don't want to talk about it"?
The enemies of Democracy are
I run a small company. The reality is, off shoring especially with the Open Source market makes entirely too much sense from a business perspective. I can have 4 United States based people, and another 12 strategically located throughout the world. The cost of the 4 is the same as the 12. It is better for my customers, and frankly my pocket book. Also, to be honest Open Source expertise is easier to obtain off american shores.
The downside to the largest economy in the world is that it is also ridiculously expensive. Of course not as bad as western Europe but still...
Get your PostgreSQL here: http://www.commandprompt.com/
it's an indian company
its' time for the usa, and especially new york state, to stop granting ibm special favors. all ibm has done for new york is slowly kill the hudson valley technology employment sector, including entire cities. ibm has betrayed its birthplace
fuck ibm, treat it like a foreign entity with questionable and dubious agendas. because ibm most certainly treats the usa like that, while the usa still coddles and mollifies it, like a deluded lover. ibm's betrayal of the usa and especially the hudson valley is longstanding and obvious, and now it is just passive aggressive, like a cheating spouse who has gotten away with countless crimes and is now embarrassed at how thoroughly he has duped their spouse
its a charade. fuck ibm, ibm only deserves scorn and hostility, unless you're in bangalore
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The govt should pass a new law that forces companies of all sizes to provide a breakdown of where they do business and where they hire. They should punish companies that do not hire where they make and sell things.
Every business should be forced to hire in the locality where they make money. This should be done not only countrywide, but statewide, citywide and blockwide.
Forget about stupid things like 'comparative advantage' - we will follow Mao's great leap forward. That will create a lot of wealth.
For the truly stupid, I'm being sarcastic.
but then get all fucking communist when it affects THEIR jobs
India isn't too bad but a lot of the jobs will be going to China, which IS all fucking communist. When I lived in China I applied to the local IBM to do business intelligence / data warehousing. They wanted to pay me a Chinese wage which would be OK there in China. But IBM wanted to send me to the USA on an L visa which lets them continue to pay the China wage the whole time. I made it through three levels of interviews before I found this out. When I said that as a US citizen I'd have to make at least US minimum wage (which would NOT be cool at all) they hung up and stopped responding to my calls. If you have an IBM consultant in the USA who is Chinese - he (she) is getting paid about $1,000/month while you're getting billed $120/hr from Blue.
You forgot to mention the 40hr work week and a minimum wage. Unions have their downside, but at least one generation has been significantly better off for their existence.
All companies, especially publicly held ones, should be forced to report their labor figures every quarter along with their financial information. Just like we should track capital flowing in and out of our country, we should be able to track jobs as well. Remember, the more you know...
True globalization would include the free flow of people as well as business. Of course all countries who claim to be supporters of globalization have tariff and subsidies as well, so it's a bit of a joke.
Generally, people do not arrive at conclusions through logical means. Certainty is a feeling, not the end result of logic. People start with the conclusions they want to arrive at, then work backwards to create a chain of rationalizations leading there.
But we did not elect our politicians to further India's interests. We did not elect them to further IBM's. We elected them to further our interests. That being said, it would be hypocritical to proclaim a love of free markets and libertarianism, while supporting protectionist policies and government intervention. Hypocritical in the extreme. However, this would not make them communists, it is much more accurate to call them hypocritical protectionists.
What would NOT be hypocritical would be to call for a citizen lead and enforced boycott of IBM. One can be a libertarian and love the free market, but still not want to do business with companies that screw over your friends and neighbors. However, I think you will find that most libertarians want license to do whatever they please, rather than desiring true freedom, which takes work, and principles.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
the entire company, middle management and upper management, is moving to india. they have an internal timeframe for this, sped up and slowed down by economic and political influences. of course they will retain a toehold here, but it will be a shell of its former self
good for india. bad for the usa. ibm has betrayed the usa
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
Are you surprised with real unemployment approaching 20% that citizens of the U.S. might be just a little bit upset over a company shipping jobs overseas but then claiming to be a US company when bidding for U.S. government jobs and tax breaks?
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
She was like chocolate when she drank... semi-sweet at first and then increasingly bitter.
IBM is one of the few companies that remained consistently profitable during the worst recession since the Great Depression. This profitability was accomplished by replacing high-wage Americans with low-wage foreigners in India, China, etc. Seeing the writing on the wall, IBM management has decided to accelerate the reduction of the American workforce.
The shareholders love this strategy since it maximizes their return on investment. The only problem is a political one: Washington will retaliate against IBM if IBM drastically reduces its American workforce in favor of cheap overseas labor. Hence, IBM has ceased reporting the size of the American workforce.
Dirty? Disgusting? Yes. Good business strategy? Yes.
ibm gets obscene special favors in the midhudson valley politically and economically on the national, state, and county, and city levels
and all the while ibm slowly moves everyone out
so its getting special treatment to TAKE AWAY jobs. how the hell does that work? i know new york politics is fucked up, but come on, this is blatant, long standing and insanely obvious
ibm is getting special treatment, and it serenely smiles while it stabs new york in the back
i have nothing for ibm management except burning hatred. i spit on ibm. as for new york politicians, they're so fucking retarded and dysfunctional, hate has no use
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
If one hand in our hopelessly inefficient government knew what the other hand was doing, they wouldn't even have to ask IBM for these numbers, they could just use tax information from the IRS.
This is a non-story.
There is a war going on for your mind.
We're projected to have more Indian employees than American in the next year or two. We already have over 100k in India, and we're ramping up in Argentina and Brazil.
Meanwhile, internal outsourcing has been an absolute mess. Our Indian-based helpdesks are reviled, both inside IBM and by our customers who use them. Indian technical resources are likewise extremely difficult to work with, and it has nothing to do with language or timezones - they refuse to speak up (from what we're told, "it's cultural", meaning don't make an issue of it or you'll get sent to sensitivity training). A solution can be completely wrong - as in, the contract says we were supposed to start work two months in the past or numbers literally don't add up, yet they won't question blatant errors, and won't respond if you question them. Apparently questioning someone else is deeply frowned upon, and makes them next to useless as anything but strict, brainless order takers. They have no initiative whatsoever, and seemingly no capability of independent creative thought. Maybe it's "cultural", maybe it's poor training - I don't know. I do know it's not working, but all executive management sees is that they cost a fraction to hire as western workers. You get what you pay for, and all that...
None of this applies to the many Indians I work with who are based in other geographies. But for whatever reason, Indians in India are just extremely poor replacements for western workers.
It is their membership. Over the past year, private sector Union jobs have declined by over a million workers. Ironically the public sector has gone the other way. Unions work for collective bargaining only when the changes made are beneficial for both the worker and the employer. The 40 hour work week, child labor laws, safety standards and health benefits actually improved the productivity of workers and thus the bottom line for the employer. In this particular case, I believe IBM Alliance just wants to form an official IBM union as seed corn for the IT industry. I suspect from the issues they submit press releases on that they are not interested in the success of IBM the company and only play lip service to IBMers as employees. If they, or any traditional union represented the IT employees, it is likely the difficulties in finding mutually beneficial improvements will only speed the outsourcing. There is room for a collective bargaining counter to upper management, but it would more it would be more likely to succeed outside the traditional union infrastructure.
Unions also protect employees from the ravages of Corporate America.
You forget how badly employees were treated back before Unions. Alot of the places that 'treat their employees just fine without unions.' Started doing so, and continue to do so.. in order to keep the unions out, not because of some altruistic feelings for their employees.
make the basis for tax deductions on the number of
reported US workers, no reports, no breaks.
problem fixes itself.
jr
What level of unemployment should we reach in the united states before the government can act to protect its citizens?
When the unemployed band together and buy a few senators I'm sure we will see some action on this.
Any insufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.
There are only money corporations. Those who run multinational organizations care nothing about whether their money comes from China, India, the USA or Mars. They have no loyalty to the USA or its people, and as the government and people of India and China will soon discover, they have no loyalty to them either. The wealthy can live anywhere. It's all one world to them. Only the sets and the local operating environments change.
The poor of the world have no enemy but the wealthy. Loyalty to "country" or political affiliation is just a con for the rubes.
Please do not read this sig. Thank you.
As a soon-to-be IBM ex-employee caught up in this latest round of layoffs (or "Resource Action" in IBM corporate lingo), I'm glad that IBM's total disregard for its own country's workforce is finally coming to light. IBM has been engaged in this behavior for years now, yet it has done such a good job burying the information so it gets little to no coverage by the media. In fact, according to a leaked management-level PPT posted on the Alliance@IBM site, IBM upper management is actively implementing a policy where even employees rated by their managers as solid contributors are artificially given lower ratings in subsequent years if their salary is deemed too high so that there is a pretext to push them out of the company and re-hire cheaper labor abroad. While I truly hope that the government would provide much needed intervention, I sincerely doubt any meaningful action will be taken. The best thing we can do is ensure as much media coverage as possible.
Good thing they go by their acronym anyways. Now they can be "Indian Business Machine" and don't have to spend a dime updating their logo! How convenient.
EvilCON - Made Famous by
Labor at IBM is unionized?
No, actually it isn't. The union mentioned in the article has been trying for the last 10 years or so, mostly unsuccessfully.
American Third Position
Finally, a real choice!
we here in turkey are surprised that noone can use any seeds but monsanto's, an american company's today. even the seeds farmers had been keeping for generations have been banned, through bought out laws. and how it takes filthy underhanded measures to kill competition through any means possible, to the extent of going the way of modifying its own seeds to kill out any plant from the same species not genetically modified by monsanto.
http://www.impactlab.com/2009/12/14/a-global-horror-story-how-monsanto-owns-and-manipulates-the-worlds-food-supply/
http://www.google.com/search?q=monsanto+horror&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a
in a sidenote, some states in usa also have banned monsanto seeds, because they found out what monsanto was doing.
all because you americans have adopted a stupid, beyond logic approach to 'unregulated' business, and ended up not only being a bitch of your own corporations yourselves, but also making them a major problem plaguing the entire world.
well excuse me, but, you people in u.s. have no right to complain over ANYthing. in the end, this was the political ideology you adopted (hands off businesses so they can screw everyone, everything), and those were the people you voted for.
in your terms 'you get what you pay for'. enjoy.
Read radical news here
binghampton, to be exact
it used to be a major employer in hudson valley towns like kingston, poughkeepsie, fishkill, westchester, and new york city, and all the rust belt cities along the thruway corridor to buffalo
but this started shrinking as it went international, and accelerated as the political center of gravity within the company has shifted to bangalore. hey, it makes sense economically, and its good for india. but ibm has shafted its birthplace, and as someone from the area, so i say fuck them for the betrayal
as a historical major and influential employer, it has developed relationships with new york state and the feds for decades. therefore, the story of ibm is a shining burning example of how corporate money destroys my country
if you want to start your own ibm hate machine, and you should, start here:
http://www.niemanwatchdog.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=background.view&backgroundid=00434
dear frothing at the mouth tea party morons:
stop listening to your demagogues who redirect your rightful anger at your government. the people robbing you blind are corporations, not your fellow poor citizens who just need healthcare. money influence in our government and our congress is destroying our nation. stop focusing your hate at your poor brothers and sisters. focus your righteous anger at the corrupting influence of corporate dollars that pay for the propaganda that fools you, all the while stabbing you in the back with a smile
stop hating your fellow man who just needs healthcare, your anger's direction is paid for by healthcare companies and their demagogues for hire
don't focus your anger on your government. focus your anger on the assholes in your government who are supposed to represent you but instead sell you out to the highest bidder. you need to reform government, not destroy it
and finally, focus your anger on the corporations themselves, who take away your job, defy your rights, and destroy your country with their special interests, all the while paying demagogue assholes to tell you that it is your poor neighbor who is to blame, because he needs healthcare and unemployment benefits, that they deny him
if this is too michael moore for you, recall that what motivated him to initially make films like roger and me was hatred for gm for destroying flint michigan. dear tea party right winger: you get poorer, and you get angrier, and they get richer, and they take your lifeblood out of this country. you want to talk patriotism? go ahead and hate michael moore for his left leaning beliefs if you want, but don't hate him because he fights for YOU: the future third world residents of the formerly great country known as the usa
know the real villain: corporations, not the government. the government is only the villain insofar as corporations have paid them to be
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
At the end of 2009 IBM employed 399,409 employees worldwide.
IBM U.S. labor force numbers.
2009: 105,000
2008: 115,000
2007: 121,000
2006: 127,000
2005: 133,789
Where IBM hired in 2009:
Asia/Pacific: 13,376
CEEMEA: 3,988
Europe: 2,923
India: 18,873
Japan: 868
Latin America: 7,112
USA: 3,514
Canada: 820
Here are the detailed numbers from the IBM March 1st, 2010 layoffs (2,901 cut so far)
STG Technology Development: 24
STG Sales Support: 80
CIO Application and infrastructure: 160
Software Group WPLC: 50
Software Group Information management: 99
GBS Global Account: 98
GTS Security Systems: 41
ITD Transition, Quality & Service Mgmt: 276
ITD Application Hosting and Database: 158
ITD Service Management Delivery: 66
ITD Storage Management: 178
ITD Distributed Server Management: 318
ITD SSO (IDMM): 120
GTS North America East IMT Region Maintenance & Technical Support: 66
Sales and Distribution Headquarters: 73
ITD Complex Engagement Services: 34
Tivoli: 51
SWG Application & Integration Middleware: 119
ITD Shared Services, Security & Risk Management: 216
Sales and Distribution Global Sales: 57
Human Resources Global Administration: 124
STG Global markets: 12
CIO Client Value Tranformation: 76
Corporate Marketing & Communications: 48
CIO Operations & Enterprise Portfolio Management: 8
STG Software Development & Lab services: 39
GBS Financial Services: 24
GBS AIS: 84
GBS ASAA: 202
Total cut so far: 2901
Source: http://www.endicottalliance.org/
There, fixed that for you.
(Note to Carnivore: it's a joke.)
My blog
A lot of posters are saying "IBM should be able to hire whoever" and "IBM should not have to give any information that IBM is not legally required to give."
Okay fine. But, if IBM wants to enjoy all the lavish benefits of being a US company, such as: stimulus money, tax breaks, and preferential treatment in obtaining government contracts; then shouldn't IBM actually be a US company?
IBM is saying "the US government should be especially kind to us, because we provide all these jobs for US citizens" and "helping IBM is a good value for US taxpayers because those tax dollars come back to help the US."
But, are those assertions true? Should the US taxpayers be forced to give IBM special treatment if those assertions are not true? And how do we really know what is, or is not, true; if IBM refuses to tell us?
Seems to me that if IBM wants special treatment from the US taxpayers, then IBM needs to tell the taxpayers what is really going on.
under my grandparent comment, from actual ibmers, verifying my description of their action plan to simply leave the usa
additionally, i am a good friend of midlevel manager who used to work for ibm in the hudson valley. he actually still does work ibm. he's in bangalore
ibm is gutting itself in the usa and reconstituting itself in india
good for india. but how is that not a betrayal of the usa in your mind?
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
It's old news but it should be stressed that corporations are legally obligated toward their shareholders to maximize profits, and this leads to countless sad and ironic situations like this one. Corporations are thus legally obligated to use lobbyists to bend laws, corporations are obligated to outsource jobs even if those are currently held by shareholders themselves, corporations are obligated to maximize externalities which usually wreaks havoc on the environment, etc. Hell, assuming that releasing their headcounts would hurt their business (as it would!), they are basically legally obligated not to do so.
That is totally fucked up and backwards, plain and simple. Like American drug laws, it seems inconceivable that any group of reasonable legislators would ever design this current system. We have historical quirks and abuses to thanks for this.
Hey mate, spare a sig?
It is not in their interest to have an eductaed populace.
OMG, it's an assertion that comes with its own evidence!
Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
For some of us it was our generation. And we tried, we really tried to warn you. Then for years we kept getting told by the white collar workers that it was all our fault that the manufacturing jobs were shifting away. We kept trying to tell you guys that your turn would come next, because we looked at the situation, hell we were living the situation so it was easy to see, that the big increases were going to wall street, that's where the massive skim was going, but you refused to listen. You believed the big liars instead. Because those crooks are "white collar" too, so you automatically identify with them, so you believed those guys instead of the older generation blue collars who tried to tell you the straight shit.
Even now, with all the emphasis on the economy and every single possible clue you need to see what is really going on..crickets. Mass denial. The white collars generic "you" will not ever understand that your own government and big economic leaders have been hell bent on stealing everything, all of it, yes even from you, then getting the theft victims, starting to include you now, to blame each other instead of the real crooks.
Enjoy the big bucks "you" might still be getting now, because it won't last long. The same globalists who ripped us off and then shifted the blame are doing it to you now, but you'll wait and do nothing as one by one by one by one you are picked off, sniped, until there is just one little special snowflake left who melts away whimpering, wondering what happened.
And you'll never blame the correct people, because you got suckered completely into believing their globalism and stock market bullshit that you could get something for nothing forever, and that you were somehow special and exempt from the great global wage arbitrage scam because you are "white collar", and you won't notice that global wage arbitrage is never accompanied with global cost of living reductions in places that lose mass numbers of jobs. You see that's the con, they claim that costs of living will go down, and more jobs will just magically appear, just spring out of the ether, but they don't, and you have had an entire generation and a half to see that, but you still aren't seeing it.
That's the lie they use to sell that con, and it is very effective so far, because they gave you credit and "stock" numbers instead of real wage increases. You can't even tell those things apart, you believe those crooks that they are the same thing.
People don't pick up on it until they lose their job..and look for work..and look for work. And a year later are still looking for work and they are now completely broke and wondering when the unemployment checks will stop. But by then they finally have taken the time to take a real look at the situation and figure things out better, but it is too late then to do anything about it to help yourself.
And the cost of living never adjusts down to deal with the lost wages and jobs, that stays the same or goes higher, because those thieves are never satisfied and they want it all and they 100% own government and keep the laws in their favor, always. Oh, they let you "vote", and you keep voting for one of the two hand picked for you candidates at the top, believing this is your "choice", or one of the two hand picked for you candidates for lesser than the top job. And the cycle continues and you keep wondering why.
It's funny how all these companies that are laying of U.S. workers talk about globalization. As a shareholder in many companies, I wonder why they don't outsource the Executive jobs? I mean why should I pay some U.S. CEO a billion dollars, when I can pay a similarly talented, if not more talented individual, from anywhere else in the world a million dollars to do the same job. People want globalization and capitalism for others, and they want protectionism and socialism for themselves. When they start outsourcing executive jobs and quit giving corporate America bailouts, I'll believe that everybody wants globalization and capitalism. Furthermore as a U.S. taxpayer, I have no problem with IBM offshoring every single last one of their jobs, just don't come to my government asking for business when you do. In fact feel free to move to these other countries that are so great for business, good riddance!
If a market is free, anyone can decide not to do business with anyone else, for any reason. Why should anyone give a rat's ass about 'market efficiency' if said efficiency benefits someone else? It is simply amazing to me that you will so vocally defend companies acting in out of self interest, from individuals acting out of their own self interest. Why do you value the self interest of certain groups of people (corporations) over other groups (boycotters)?
You may hate it, but people will always band together into groups to protect their interests, with or without a government. In a true lasseiz faire capitalist society, people will create their own social structures to protect their interests, there will be countless advocacy and interest groups that will use all the tools at their disposal, including boycotts, public pressure, and educational campaigns, to punish companies that do not perform as the members wish.
You've provided a sterling example of why I dislike most libertarians. You don't want freedom, you want license to do whatever you please, for yourself, and everyone else should shut the fuck up and do what they are told. It is absolutely hypocrisy of the worst sort. It is also elitist, supports tyranny and encourages heirarchy.
In short, you are a statist. You just think corporations should BE the state.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton