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China Criticizes Google's "US Ties"
krou writes "State-run news agency Xinhua has attacked what it calls Google's 'intricate ties with the US government' amongst its high level officials, claiming that it's 'an open secret that some security experts in the Pentagon are from Google.' They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it. Xinhua said that 'One company's ambition to change China's internet rules will only prove to be ridiculous.' Google has denied the claims. Google spokeswoman Jessica Powell said that 'The decision to review our business in China was entirely Google's and Google's alone.'"
that while some Internet users in certain Western countries may see the Internet as something which exists independently of society and is merely a medium through which two individuals may communicate, from the Chinese POV it is a part of society and therefore allowed to be controlled.
To be totally honest, I agree with the Chinese POV, since $People \in Society$ and $Internetusers \subset Society$.
They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it
When Chinese manufacturing firms outsource their core labor to the US then that might be true.
People who think Google is doing that for human rights are naive.
It is like people who are thinking USA went to Irak for the weapons of mass destructions....
Of course Google is trying to impose "American Values" on China. As it stands, they can't gain enough power to control things there. If China becomes more like America, then Google (and other companies) will have a bigger say in the government, and will be able to make more money.
Is it a surprise to anyone that that's what they're trying to do?
China is taking its lead from North Korea on the propaganda front?
If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
wots, uh... the deal?
US Criticizes Google's 'Chinese Ties'
At least thats how it seems. Can't please everyone so its better to do what feels right for you (for most companies what feels right seems to be what is most profitable).
My government is using the Internet to spy on me? Who knew?
Secret Services/Intelligence must get information
there is information in the internet
where is information seeked for: in search enghines
to know what is searched for you ought to sit behind a search engine, best Google
and you can then also influence what is being found
much cheaper than Echelon
And in the answer streams from a search engine one can embedd other things such as trojans etc...
QED
???
If I wanted to read chinese propagada, I would go to the source:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/
Google is behaving far more ethically than the State Department. If they were really Pentagon puppets, they'd be more concerned with trying to add 2% to the value of the Yuan rather than with trivial little things like free speech and political freedom.
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
You ever get the idea that we need a better Internet anyway? After all a nation shouldn't have that much control over what goes in/out. If an ISP can throttle what you download even here, and can have rooms where it can be parsed for government use tells me no more ISP would be the first piece of the puzzle.
China needs to learn that in the U.S. the corporations run the state, not the other way around.
So... A government controlled news entity IN CHINA is reporting dirt about google to the Chinese people. Why the heck is this news?
While it would not at all surprise me if the relationship between aspects of the US intelligence apparatus and aspects of google is rather cozy(they'd merely be joining the long list of data broker companies for which that is true*cough* ChoicePoint, *cough* Acxiom, *cough*AT&T); it takes real chutzpah for a country where enterprises owned outright by the state and/or military are common, standard practice, to start moralizing about the shady and nebulous ties between google and America's spook infestation.
apply to the chinese whatever their govt says.
As ridiculous as this is, at least they're fabricating crap in order to keep out a search engine, instead of fabricating crap in order to start a war.
People in power do whatever they want. It usually works. On the rare occasion it doesn't, it makes the history books.
The Institute of Incomplete Research has determined that 9 of out 10
???
If I wanted to read chinese propagada, I would go to the source:
http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/
You know, I wish I 1) spoke some variant of Chinese and 2) knew more about Chinese media outlets. I wrote a journal post about this situation back when it was developing and tried to find a diverse viewpoint in Chinese news related to Google's ultimatum. It turned out to be more humorous and an exercise in futility than anything else. Does anyone who speaks the language know of a 'subversive' news source out of China? Or anything at all offering balanced and multiple views in the reporting? All I see is multiple sources looking like they are offering you unbiased news when, in fact, they are regurgitating something to you that is within a government approved standard deviation of the government approved message.
...
Really, really sad. Also a stark reminder of how thankful I should be of the diversity of our press in the United States no matter how sorry it may look at times
My work here is dung.
A US-based company, full of US citizens, acting to further the interests of the US. No shit Sherlock!
Don't worry China. As soon as you become enough of a consumer nation that Google's advertising-based model is overwhelmingly profitable for them in China, they'll have to bow to their stockholders, who won't be able to stop from salivating over your billions of consumers.
Until then, your whining makes us all feel good about ourselves, as we all secretly fear we're getting the same propoganda from our own government (regardless of political party).
It is just one company, right? In theory they shouldn't even be taking notice...
If they had actually expected to come out fully unscathed from this, they would have not even blinked.
China's censorship system had worked so far only because the Chinese always had options/alternatives when blocked from sites containing "dangerous ideas". The Chinese public simply accepted the government explanation. But Google, as the world's leading search engine, is something that is pretty much an inherent part of internet. Blocking a valuable internet resource requires much more rationalization, which is exactly what has the Chinese government sweating. It will be much harder to sell to the internet-using Chinese public. As such, this actually can lead to a relaxing of censorship in China. If not, it will lead to a realization on the part of Chinese public as to how they are actually visibly suffering by tolerating a non-democratic fascist state. Both are the first baby steps on the road to self-determination and freedom for the people in China.
Sadly, the said Chinese government is banking on having an alternative in competing search engines such as that of Microsoft. If Microsoft fails to follow Google's example, it will now actually be actively working to keep the seeds of democracy out of China.
Not that Microsoft, would be interested in anything apart from its profit line, considering it doesn't really believes in any kind of business ethics.
Yes, we all love to hate the chinese. But there's some truth in there. The US is aggressively exporting its values and believes to the entire world, and it isn't asking if anyone wants it. Hollywood is the biggest propaganda machine ever, far more subtle and effective than any Nazi or Soviet Russian government efforts. And yes, Google is part of a culture as much as it is a company, and is bringing that culture to the world.
Most of the world is eating it up. A lot of people welcome it. Few of them made a conscious decision among alternatives on the matter of culture and spirit.
I'm not debating if the US culture is "good" or "bad" here, just stating the fact that the amount of culture that is in the american way of doing business is seldom reflected.
Assorted stuff I do sometimes: Lemuria.org
The US government has done many awful and unjust things but it is a beacon of human rights when compared to the Peoples Republic of China.
What's happens to US citizens when they criticize the US government? What happens to Chinese citizens when they criticize the current government of China?
An honest answer to this test should quiet the post we will see here today. Somebody is going to apologize for the atrocities of the Chinese government by saying that the US government is no better. I can criticize both the US government and the Chinese government. I don't fear any reprisal from the US government for that criticism. Chinese citizens can have their lives taken away or be imprisoned for little more than a charge of 'creating instability'.
Google only ever had one small bit of leverage when negotiating with China : Chinese citizens know that Google is more legit & honest than Badu. We're totally unsurprised that Chia spins away this leverage.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
Given how thoroughly China controls Chinese businesses, it's exceedingly hypocritical for China to criticize Google for these perceived links to the US government.
Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
"They have also accused the company of trying to
change Chinese society by imposing American values on it."
everybody knows the internet was invented in china, duh.
*points at China*
It's hard telling a company what to do when you don't own it, eh? Mayhaps this will inspire other companies to think twice before setting up shop in China...
Does anyone really give an airborne copulation at a ventrally rotating toroid what China criticizes?
I'm not intending to be dismissive. I actually don't understand why this is even news.
China owns the playing field and sets the rules for that playing field. Google has attempted to play in China's playground but cannot survive within the constraint of its rules. It has exhausted all efforts to make adjustments and compromises but China will have none of it. Google has two options -- change the way it does business or leave. These options are rather similar to China's options -- allow changes in the way it deals with business or make them leave. It doesn't have to be an emotionally or politically charged problem at all.
Google's options are limited. Leaving is clearly the last resort and it seems that they are taking that one. China is keeping its playground, but Google is taking the ball back home.
... google IS a US-based company.... what did they expect?
bickerdyke
NPR did a couple of interviews with Chinese bloggers and internet publishers. They were fighting for less Chinese Government restrictions, but even they started one sentence with: "Obviously, the Government needs to protect some people from dangerous information, but..." I haven't heard many native Chinese express the belief that a completely Government-unfiltered communications system is a fundamental right or even something that's unquestionably a good thing on the balance. It's those kinds of attitudes, though, that make me think that China is currently where Japan was in the 80's, and will have a self-limiting success as they run out of Western technology to copy and have trouble creating their own in a communication-stifled society.
E pluribus unum
I watched an interesting show on how Google operates and their conclusion was that Google's business is based on "Trust". Unlike many organizations, Google is in business because we trust that they will work and operate to keep our data as safe as they can. It is something that a vast majority of the public including myself takes for granted because so far they haven't messed up badly. According to Google, China was caught hacking their systems, stealing IP and personal user data. If this keeps going on the way it does, then Google can't keep the trust of the public and it might mean the downfall of their company. (I can't use Google because China keeps hacking in and stealing my data.)
Originally Google went into China because when you really think about it, filtering users from content does not betray this idea of "Trust". Your data is still safe but China stepped over the line when they started hacking into Google.
The best way for Google to leave China which is likely what they are now planning to do is to drop the filtering. This generates good will with the remaining users. China is correct in that Google is pushing Western ideals however in many ways this is China's fault to begin with. If China hadn't hacked Google to begin with this whole mess would not have started.
I personally don't see a huge problem with China filtering searches. It's their own country and their own rules. Admittedly this goes against freedom of speech (a democratic idea) but China's pretty far from a democracy. Hopefully someday, their public will realize that it is something valuable enough to fight for but for now it doesn't seem to be the case. However hacking your business partner is far from acceptable.
If you were a responsible for horrific atrocities like this one :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiananmen_Square_protests_of_1989
and you wanted to hide the truth about it from the people, of course you wouldn't believe in the "American way."
The American way is pretty much the opposite of that.
I am not involved with Google but they have been open for a good long while and it's one of their core ideals to be committed to openness.
Sorry if there are Chinese out there who believe that openness and morality are not acceptable in business and that people who believe in freedom are wrong. You guys are wrong.
It is is abundantly clear that if Google leave China it will be for business reasons. Because they cannot be open and that prevents them from increasing their market share. It is not a political issue.
Google is an American company. Not a Chinese company.
The cyber attack was a political issue. Google leaving is not.
The political issue for China now is why the Chinese government did nothing to assist Google after the attacks and what the Chinese government will do to replace the huge amount of web infrastructure that will no longer be available to the Chinese people if Google leaves.
Adopting the "We don't care if you leave attitude" is essentially like shooting yourself in the foot.
Google's entire business model relies on the free internet society that the US has helped build. If the internet started in Iran, it wouldn't be what it is today. To say a US company with a business model based on internet freedom has a US bias is quite the waste of breath.
This is simply a case of a company embracing like-minded groups and distancing its threats.
They need more gawking morons like you to round out their site.
Ah Slashdot, where the genuine request for more information and recognition of your own shortcomings is met only with the satisfying sting of childish name calling. It makes me a 'gawking moron' to ask if anyone knows how I could find out more about genuine news in a country designed to filter out genuine news? Well, I'm kind of sick and tired of people telling me to ignore China.
I was hoping I'd find more information resources similar to Letter from China except hopefully from a Chinese native citizen. Instead I get an insult and a link to sites seemingly dedicated to a mix of gossip, weird news and some actually decent content.
Well, if you think I'm merely a 'gawking moron' I'd better follow your lead and just shut up and get back in line and stop thinking. That is the safest thing to do, right?
My work here is dung.
I'm not intending to be dismissive. I actually don't understand why this is even news.
We're following the Google VS China story.
Google goes into china, china says out with the pr0n and the "free tibet" crap or no deal, google says ok. People here say google is turning evil, not giving china any pr0n. Google says china hacks google looking for people who want to free tibet, china says nah-huh, google just wanna make china look at 2 girls one cup and goatse. Google says they're gonna take their ball and go home.
And now we're at "China says google is trying to make china gay for the USA".
Can't wait to see what google does next.
You can't take the sky from me...
Of course the Chinese authorities are right. It is ridiculous that Google could think to change China's Internet rules. But it's still a battle worth fighting. 300 Spartans and the other Greek allies didn't actually stop the Persians from invading Greece, but I don't think anyone would call the Battle of Thermopylae ridiculous. Sometimes a stroke of the symbolic sword can be as powerful as a real one.
The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
You said the Internet was its own society, and I immediately thought of this.
I would be really interested what Chinese people think of this... Unfortunately there seems to be no comment section on xinhuanet. Pretty strange for such big news sites ....
If you look on Twitter, a website banned in China, you might find people who bothered to break through the censorship and speak their daily lives, and occasionally, comment on current events with a different perspective.
c'mon! china will do anything to catch up to the west including spying. what's google's share of market in china? their best shot at catching up to a gov't lapdog like Baidu is to offer uncensored content. recognizing that advantage, the chinese authorities moved quickly to threaten 3rd party suppliers that might work with google. How's that for gov't involvement in the marketplace?
You're like a loud animal rights activist who still keeps eating veal.
If you're so morally outraged, stop using U.S. companies' internet sites and services, and/or help create some alternatives.
You mean like free trade?
The Chinese government *wants* American values, but cafeteria style. They want free exchange of information so long as it is information leaving America and entering China. They don't want information leaving China or worse yet circulating within China. The Chinese government wants America to be open and pursue classical liberal trade policy while it remains closed and pursues mercantilist policies. It wants America to be true to its respect of sovereign nations, but to forget about every individual's sovereignty over his own opinions. It demands the American not interfere in free markets while the Peoples Liberation Army operates businesses and party official parlay their connections into business wealth.
China has rejected the extreme form of socialism it was founded on, but it has not adopted the enlightened capitalism of Europe and America. It has recreatd the caricature of American capitalism portrayed in its own propaganda: a system in which corrupt wealthy men pull the strings of corrupt government.
It's no wonder they don't want American values: those values empower the working class.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
If Google really cared about our privacy, it would ADVERTIZE using PGP with Gmail. Unfortunately, Google cares more about the revenue from Gmail contextual ads and the information about the users than their privacy.
If you are not in Shanghai, Chennai, Bombay, and Dubai, then goodbye.
I think Danwei is a good place to start :
http://www.danwei.org/
Then you will have a lot of blogs on specialized topics, like for example :
http://www.chinalawblog.com/
http://www.cleanergreenerchina.com/
http://www.chinaenvironmentallaw.com/
Chine is like a Cancer killing all the freedom.
Oh yeah, Danwei is a good one!
The South China Morning Post is the best English news source I've found. As aHong Kong newspaper, it's not subject to the same gross political manipulation as the mainland counterparts. With regards to Chinese language newspapers, they are all subject to towing the party line. You can find balanced view points but never for politically sensitive topics.
I wish we could mod the comments coming from China, North Korea, and elsewhere as Troll or Flamebait, so they could be properly ignored. Unfortunately, the trolls of politics are taken seriously -- they have nuclear weapons, unlike your average slashdot troll.
So... A government controlled news entity IN CHINA is reporting dirt about google to the Chinese people. Why the heck is this news?
Because right now there are some in China that are sympathetic to Google. It's necessary to demonize them in order to eliminate that sympathy. What better way than to link Google to the evil US government?
ELOI, ELOI, LAMA SABACHTHANI!?
And yet, I've found that most wars have an economic foundation lurking somewhere at its core. Maybe not as a primary motivation, but a strong motivation nonetheless. That makes China's actions against Google and other US "economic interests" quite dangerous.
On the rare occasion it doesn't, it makes the history books.
Not the chinese history books...just sayin'...
http://www.zonaeuropa.com
Yes, I would actually like to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it. (Or at least some set of constitutionally democratic values; they don't have to be American.)
Not that I believe that America always lives up to its own values, but I would like to impose on Chinese society the values of representative government, of freedom of speech, and of equal access to justice. Chinese society currently has none of those values, and I think its people suffer greatly for it.
In a strange coincidence, Google today unveiled the awesome power of the revamped Google Weather service, which delivers carefully targeted weather to their enemies^H^H^H^H^H^H^H, I mean users.
Putting moderation advice in your
Sorry for not keeping up with this whole thing, but once Google pull out of China, does that mean they won't even be able to access Google.com, a worldwide site?
Why OpalCalc is the best Windows calc
Google like any other co. is out for money. If Google could make more money somewhere else they would. Stop trying to tie Co. to States!
Coming from a Libyan I would not be put too much stock in what you say. You certainly have experience with nationalistic un-democratic indoctrination.
We see what we expect to see. In China, companies cannot become powerful and successful without some control and permission of the government. Therefore the Chinese government sees all powerful and successful companies through that lens. It is outside their experience that a private company could become as powerful and successful as Google has without any government patronage to speak of. They believe that they are simply exposing a truth that the rest of the world is too naive to see, or is not willing to admit.
U.S citizens might see them as hypocritical propagandists. But from their perspective they are being totally consistent.
Build a man a fire, he's warm for one night. Set him on fire, and he's warm for the rest of his life.
The closest I've seen to something like that is called ChinaSMACK. I wouldn't really call it "subversive," though. It focuses on whatever is currently popular in China. It's interesting to see all the translated comments talking about the USA...
Suffice it to say, we both have a lot to learn about each other...
They have also accused the company of trying to change Chinese society by imposing American values on it.
Both China and US are the same. China hides some details from its people, and US also hides some details (UFO, etc.)
It is about time someone stands up to the ChiComs
I'm Chinese, I can answer your questions. The more balanced views are largely suppressed by either self-censorship our of fear, or forced deletion etc.. The English version of People's Daily really is not enough to give you an idea how homogenous the mainstream media is in China. It's actually an ostensibly relaxed version of the governments' view. That's for your eyes only. The Chinese version is even more ridiculous. But very recent development shows that the Southern Daily Group has been challenging the line drawn by the government.
As ridiculous as this is, at least they're fabricating crap in order to keep out a search engine, instead of fabricating crap in order to start a war.
Afraid it's more like, they're fabricating crap to prevent dissent among the people. Can't have Google infecting the populace with crazy ideas of freedom, so they tarnish the company, and make it out to be an enemy / threat against the people.
Actually it was China's decision to open up their borders, allow trade, foreign companies, and embrace that whole capitalism thing. So they actually DID decide to let Google (and everyone else) in. Learn you some history, foo!