Slashdot Mirror
Google vs. China — Who's Got the Most To Lose?
Barence writes "Google looks set to pull out of China, but who will suffer most? The search engine or China? At last week's South by Southwest conference, Kaiser Kuo, a former director of digital strategy for the Ogilvy & Mather advertising agency in China, gave an illuminating talk that examined the history of Google and other Western internet firms in China, their relationship with the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), and the likely outcomes of the current stalemate. Kuo explained that Google had earned the respect of the tech-savvy urban elite by protecting users, making censorship clear and by protecting its employees in China. That means Google is walking away from a 35% market share, which contains a far wealthier demographic than local provider Baidu. The Government, meanwhile, which has been very pro-competition, is about to hand a complete monopoly to Baidu, harm its international standing and the development of net technologies in the country. Is it a lose-lose situation?"
Google loses, China's reputation will recover after a blip, and Microsoft is waiting with Bing.
Google has the most to lose because they are a company and China is a country.
Google will make its profit, but not as much as if it would have if it stayed in China.
China will make itself whatever its government wants it to become where Google is around or not.
Hey, it turns out that there are stupid questions!
If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
the Chinese people.
Google loses, Baidu wins, and China doesn't give a damn either way. All those Google China employees will likely just move their skills over to Baidu (assuming they were locals to begin with and probably many of the ex-pats as well) and take what they know with them when they do. Baidu gets an automatic monopoly, no matter what Google's current market share, and China, or specifically the CCP doesn't care because they still get what they want- the look of being the caring provider that "supports competition" while still controlling the flow of data.
"Growing old is inevitable; growing up is optional."
What is the sound of no thoughts happening?
Without Google adds, how will the Chinese know that their penises are small much less that there's a cream to make them bigger which costs only $19.95!
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Not even a link to a story yet, but the ticker on the BBC News home page is reporting that Google has announced that it has stopped censoring its search engine in China. Since China has already made her position clear on this eventuality I suppose this must mean that Google believes that it might as well be hanged for a wolf, than a lamb.
I'm nipping out for some popcorn; the next couple of days are going to be really interesting...
UNIX? They're not even circumcised! Savages!
Duh. There's an easy way to figure this one out: http://googlefight.com/index.php?lang=en_GB&word1=google&word2=china
I mean, without China, there's only 5.5 billion people left in the world to cater to. How can they possibly get by on such meager numbers?
There's a small part of me that would like to see other companies follow in the footsteps of Google. Get out of China. Just leave.
Why?
This is a poor example but I can't help using it. Remember South Africa? There was a time when quite a number of companies just didn't do business there given how that government was (not) working for it's people. I'd like to think this helped change things for the better in South Africa.
It's not that I want to force my idea / style of government onto the people of China, but .. well .. besides North Korea and Cuba are there any other communistic states left? Would any people as a whole choose to convert to a communistic system. I'm thinking no.
And in a way, walking away from China as a whole, send a bit of a wake up call to the Chinese that, "O by the way, we care about how people are treated. We care about freedom." They need to too. When people in a place such as China can see how things are elsewhere in the world, it can and should plant the seed for change for the better for China. Probably overly optimistic on my part but hey, it's something.
Great grand internet firewalls need to go. Speech needs to be free.
Google is now redirecting to uncensored results via Google.hk, and they have a page showing what services China is blocking so they can track it in a transparent way. Take a look: http://www.google.com/prc/report.html#hl=en
That number sounds about right.. just google it.
Second result in google from over a year ago breaking 30%
~Mekkah
accept for that whole "hacking" thing.
The real Sig captains the Northwestern. This one captains
...I see this article which says Google is attempting a sort of compromise.
Google Inc. will shift its search engine for China off the mainland but won't shut it down altogether, and it will maintain other operations in the country. It's an attempt to balance its stance against censorship with its desire to profit from an explosively growing Internet market.
On Monday afternoon, visitors to Google.cn were being redirected to Google's Chinese-language service based in Hong Kong. The page said, according to a Google translation, "Welcome to Google Search in China's new home."
Google's attempt at a compromise could resolve a 2 1/2-month impasse pitting the world's most powerful Internet company against the government of the world's most populous country.
Mu?
Ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
Yes, Google has to respect Chinese law if it wants to do business in China. As a result, it has decided not to do business in China. (Well, there are almost certainly other significant reasons as well, but the censorship laws are part of the reason).
Does a line appended to your comment give your post meaning in and of itself, or only in relation to those without?
Or, Google keeps a Chinese language site, without any filtering. Let them look like asses for blocking it with their firewall that for some reason, they keep denying exists. Even keep the country code domain, until they force you to leave. That sounds like one hell of a trade dispute with a country that NEEDS a "favored nation" status with us. I still don't understand why google doesn't just remove themselves from the country, but still have a presence easily reached by Chinese citizens. (kind of like gambling sites, that are illegal for US citizens, which is against treaties, and we got a multi-billion judgement against us for)
What are we going to do tonight Brain?
Tough business call. If Google knuckles under to keep their market presence in China then they sacrifice a great deal of the good will and karma they've earned through the "Don't be evil" policy.
Refusing to continue to censor in China will clearly be a short-term loss for Google as it's pretty obvious the Chinese government has zero tolerance for any kind of non-compliance. (Heck, their only way to handle any kind of non-compliance is to imprison and Disappear their own citizens, ex-pulse foreigners and fine or refuse business with foreign corporations.)
However, I argue that if Google holds its ground and swallows the short term loss they will win long term. I fully expect Google and democracy as a whole to outlive Communist China.
XML is a known as a key material required to create SMD: Software of Mass Destruction
It's not about business as much as it is about censorship. What you are forgetting is that the current group of Chinese students don't even know what tank man is, never mind what was happening in their own country when he stood in front of the tanks. Everyone seems to agree that Saddam Husein needed to be taken out because he was a bad man. The Chinese government is a bad government and everyone is politically dancing around this fact while trying to make money in China. Google is saying "hey, we have a motto and doing business with such a government is not in keeping with it". No matter who wins or loses, this stands to be a surrealistic highlight of the fact that there are bad people in the world, and the world is too small to allow them to corrupt such a large part of the world with censorship, secret police, and many other unsavory things. The mere existence of the Chinese government and who they will be supportive of creates a safe environment for more of the same to blossom in different places. It's not like the red scare or anything, but if they don't want to do business with anyone who will not also partake in ill treatment of their citizens, the world really needs to step up as a group and say NO, you're wrong and we won't play. That means that we should stop buying things made in China. period. If Google can say no, the rest of us should be saying no. If you want cheap goods, try another country of origin, just don't buy 'made in China' goods. Besides, your pets and children may live longer if you don't.
Support NYCountryLawyer RIAA vs People
Google is a business, like any other. Do you think that they haven't run a CBA on this move? While the Chinese population is large, the viable market for Google's products is not. How many people in China have regular internet access? How many of those have disposable income to spend on things they see in advertisements? How many Chinese companies that market locally are going to have their profitability affected by search engine advertisements? On the other hand, how much does it cost Google to protect against cyber-attacks from the government? How much does it cost them to lose their trade secrets and IP? How much does it cost them in goodwill elsewhere to remain in business in China, following those draconian laws?
Google is coming out ahead in this move; that's why they made it in the first place. The Chinese government comes out ahead as well, since they gain even greater control over the flow of information within their borders. The only ones who lose are the Chinese people.
How come whenever it comes to win/lose with business the only factor really looked at is bottom line profit? If I'm reading the entire situation correctly Google is set to win, big, on this decision. Sure they'll be collecting less profit from a major country in the world economics but they save on a number of levels often ignored:
1) They've already faced legal battles regarding the security of their accounts and information. Fighting court battles isn't cheap and the press related to "Google accounts hacked" doesn't bode well for them anyway.
2) Stepping back from a country who has values different from the majority of Google's "customers" will save it from requiring a highly diverse business plan when not necessary. I'm sure its not cheap to run an entirely separate company from their own in China.
I'm certain there's more but there's a little summary, feel free to add your own. Essentially I feel Google wins, sure, they don't have a higher bottom end profit but if they are still in the black at the end of it all then they've bought themselves enough time to re-evaluate their Chinese venture or anything else for that matter.
...the WinMo 7 marketing department?
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
The word you are looking for is "except".
There is a war going on for your mind.
From the end of google's blog post:
Finally, we would like to make clear that all these decisions have been driven and implemented by our executives in the United States, and that none of our employees in China can, or should, be held responsible for them. Despite all the uncertainty and difficulties they have faced since we made our announcement in January, they have continued to focus on serving our Chinese users and customers. We are immensely proud of them.
http://www.c-span.org/Watch/C-SPAN2.aspx
How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
That means that we should stop buying things made in China. period.
Have you actually been able to do this? Even if I shared your opinion, I doubt a China boycott is feasible.
China isn't where I'd like them to be, either, but take a step back and compare the China of 30 years ago to the China of today. They have undergone a remarkable change in a very short amount of time. There is more to come.
Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
RTFA. That's exactly what they're doing.
www.google.cn now redirects to www.google.com.hk - a site that is not affected by Chinese censorship, and is in the same language.
And say China loses. Why? China needs the US more than the US needs China. If China pulled out their investments, it would drop the value of the US dollar, which could have the effect of jumpstarting the stagnant US economy by making it suddenly a lot cheaper to relocate jobs into the US (much like how it is with China and their practice of artificially suppressing the value of their currency by 40-50% and gaming the free trade deals with monetary policy). On the other hand, China really, really needs the US market as a result of focusing so heavily on doing business here. Too many companies are set up entirely to deliver services to the US. You pull out the rug on that, those businesses fail and China is stuck scrambling to find some other country as wealthy as the US willing to go into debt with China...which isn't exactly likely. China's investments in the US wouldn't be worth nearly as much as they paid in for. American companies could buy those investments back at a price lower than they were originally sold off for.
What does that have to do with Google? When China's government decides that it can interfere in the practices and control of a private company's product, especially a worldwide recognizable one like Google, which has been operating legitimately within all trade treaties, and even go so far as to hack the systems of a foreign corporation, it brings the whole world's attention back to China...especially the US. It gives the US government more political capital and support to go after the monetary practices that China has used to vault itself to a world economic superpower. Considering the current financial situation in the US, it really has a lot less to lose than China and a whole lot more to gain, despite the debt that the US owes. China's best policy is to operate quietly and keep building wealth and remain inconspicuous...reminding the world every couple years that you're basically a dictatorship that brutally suppresses dissent (and while the US has had some glaring examples of doing similar acts, you can't sanely argue that the US is anywhere near as excessively repressive as China has been over the years) isn't exactly the best way to stay inconspicuous and make countries want to sign more trade treaties with you. It probably gives those other countries' leaders a lot of political capital to consider restructuring those existing treaties. It's a lot easier to gin up the citizens against a country that openly violates the privacy of your country's corporations than it is a country that plays fair. If a country plays fair, corporations that do business with those companies can easily lobby enough support to squash even the basic intent of trade policy reform.
Google wins. They have convinced us that they "don't do evil", so we keep using their products and services and feel good about it. And they get positive publicity. Google was not the #1 search engine in china anyway. Chinese people can still use google.com. Maybe.
Short-term, Google probably has more to lose (although, arguably, they also have more to *gain* by cutting ties with China; it certainly isn't going to do their reputation in the West any harm).
In the long term, however, I think China has more to lose.
Google is not the first company to decide doing business in China is More Trouble Than It's Worth. As it stands, a lot of people deal with China not because they're a pleasure to do business with, but because it "seems important", because China's so big. That's not a good basis for a solid relationship. If they continue doing just about everything they can think of to alienate people, China may eventually find themselves screaming "we're important, come do business with us" to a world that has lost the willingness to put up with their nonsense.
Cut that out, or I will ship you to Norilsk in a box.