Chinese Reactions To Google Leaving China

I Don't Believe in Imaginary Property writes "Most people have already heard western media reactions to Google leaving China proper and redirecting search traffic to its Hong Kong branch, but ChinaSMACK has translated comments from average Chinese internet users so that non-Chinese can understand how the Chinese public feels. While many of them are supportive of the government on some level, they were able to obtain many comments by those critical of the government before they could be 'harmonized' (deleted) and translated those as well. The deleted comments often complain about the wumao (50 cent party), government employees who are paid 50 cents RMB per post supporting the government, and worry that the Chinese Internet will become a Chinese LAN."

Comments

What is the atmosphere inside China?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

It's fine to get reports of what's going on inside China from bloggers and news sources that have a vested interest in painting China in the worst light possible. But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

If all you are ever fed is McDonald's and no one ever tells you about anything else, your view of food is severely limited. This works both ways in the case of China.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[francium de neobie]

Opinion about the government is not a singular YES/NO boolean flag. It's entirely possible that the Chinese people generally likes the economic progress the government has brought, but doesn't like the censorship so much.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[BadAnalogyGuy]

As hard as it may seem to grasp this concept, there are people who hold their beliefs very closely yet hold beliefs that are diametrically opposed to you.

Take the U.S. as a prime example. For what many Europeans take as incomprehensible, the nearly violent antipathy of many Americans towards national health care, these Americans feel strongly that it is in their (and their country's) best interest to not have such a system.

In China, the censorship is perhaps seen as a good thing, to "protect the children" or other public policy reason. With only the Western "freedom is everything" cultural viewpoint fed to us, how can we really form a valid opinion either way?

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Anonymous Coward]

>>But from my experience with mainland Chinese, they are for the most part satisfied with their government's actions.

Indeed. My wife (who is Chinese) was born and raised in Hong Kong, and so has no love for mainland China. Probably had something to do with her grandpa getting tortured during the cultural revolution...

She refuses to visit mainland China, so I went by myself. People there are actually very happy with their government, in a sort of "Yeah it's a dictatorship but everything is moving in the right direction" way. They actually like that shit gets done there. Got a shitty village in the way of the interstate? Move. No pissy little lawsuits there to slow things down. And then the interstate is done... in a tenth of the time it would take in America. They actually mocked our gridlock in America.

Anyhow, her aunt and uncle still live in China, and recently moved to mainland China. They're Christian missionaries... oh wait, that's illegal... they're Christians, and they do charity work. If anyone would hate China, it'd be them - father tortured, they could possibly be executed for being Christian... and they approve of the government. Not just "oh well, it's better than Zimbabwe", but they actually think the country is doing well, and will do even better in the future. Sure, there's a few problems, they say, but they'll be fixed in the future.

While most of the Chinese people I talked to were rather ignorant about news (nationally and internationally), pretty much all of them liked the government.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[DNS-and-BIND]

What you're missing is the "wrong" and "right" of the situation. Europeans are right, Americans and Chinese are wrong, in addition to being vulgar and uncivilized. Heck, there are people who call the results of legitimate elections "wrong" because the people voted the "incorrect" way. I wish I was kidding.

Although I am happy to see yet another thread about a totally unrelated subject get turned into the standard "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid" argument though.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[plasticsquirrel]

This is basically true. I live in China and I have asked my co-workers and several classes of students about it. The adults aren't really surprised by any of it, but that might be a little different among the tech crowd. Some of my students were concerned about Google leaving, as most of them do use Google and prefer it. However, most said they would just use Baidu.

Although they may dislike how things worked out, or disagree with the government's actions, the overall legitimacy of the government is rarely called into question. People are more interested in fixing the problems in their government. The basic reason is that they think the only way to prosper as a country is to work together, like China is a big family including the government, and this mindset is deeply set in many people. It's not all "government vs. the people" everywhere in the world. There are a few people who are pro-democracy advocates, but they are typically pro-everything-western Christians. Most people I have talked to will remark that democracy isn't appropriate for China, and that it is fundamentally different from western countries.

The fact is that people aren't too concerned about issues like this over here. They are too busy living their lives, and the whole Web as they know it is basically different. They don't use YouTube, Facebook, Twitter, Blogger, or any of the normal sites. Only around 1% use Wikipedia. It's a totally different game here, where the number of QQ users is larger than the entire U.S. population.

After Google moved to Hong Kong, a teacher asked me about it, and I explained it to her. Then I told her that they moved because the mainland and Hong Kong have different laws. She replied back playfully with, "... maybe. Maybe they do," pretending to look a little nervous, and then laughing playfully. It's not all evil empire stuff over here. People roll their eyes at a lot of it, and everyone knows that the government can't control so much. There are too many people, so it's just like controlled chaos, with aspirations of harmony.

In some ways it's freer than the U.S. because there are so few people to enforce the laws or keep things in check. If a cop is going too slow, cars will honk their horns obnoxiously at him, swerve around him into the oncoming lane to pass him up, and generally just treat him like another asshole on the road. In the U.S., the cops are on your ass just for going through a yellow light too late. The American public is nothing for authorities to fear, but the Chinese public is much bigger and more powerful. In many ways it's difficult to imagine a government like the U.S. has, able to maintain the peace with 1.3 billion people.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[sortius_nod]

It's not just Europeans thinking this...

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Vintermann]

Attitudes don't form in a vacuum. Your attitudes are come a bit from yourself, and a great deal from the average of attitudes expressed by people around you. When expressions of negative attitudes to government are discouraged and suppressed, and positive ones rewarded (this 50 cent party thing - not something exclusive to China, I'm sure), it will drag up everyone, especially those who like to think that they arrive at their attitudes on their own.
It happens and has happened in much worse places than China (East Germany, Burma). Especially if you are a well-off Chinese, it makes a lot of sense to just "not be interested in politics" and defend the government.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Angostura]

Luckily, you have the freedom to examine the societal benefits and problems that the "freedom is everything" culture brings with it, while at the same time examining the parallel consequences of a society where the availability of information is centrally controlled.

You also have enough intellectual freedom to know that your prejudices are at least partially due to acculturation.

So, to answer your question - yes, you are in a position to form an informed, and potentially valid opinion. You are also in a position to form an opinion about the ability of a person with only access to the Chinese media and Internet to do so.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Alphathon]

I agree with your first sentence, but your second one not so much. It is a very blanket statement to say that, since morals are not universal, but personal. Some things can pretty much be agreed upon as immoral: murder (note, not simply killing); rape; abuse of power etc. but everything else is entirely based upon circumstance. If you are brought up in a culture where personal possession is meaningless for example, then stealing cannot be considered immoral.

Regardless, I'm not sure that many Americans do think that universal health care would be a bad thing, they just don't want to fund it through their taxes, so don't support it. They likely see it as something along the lines of "if people want health care, they should work to pay for it". It is a very capitalist model, but not necessarily immoral. I myself don't agree with it, and see it as pure selfishness pretty much, but I am a product of my surroundings as well, and having been brought up by fairly liberal parents in the UK (where we have universal heath care) it is almost inevitable that I feel the way I do.

The legitimacy of voting thing; yeah, that's pretty much wrong if you accept democracy as good, but I'm sure that not everyone agrees. It definitely isn't FAIR for hereditary rule etc, but I'm sure there are those that think it's better regardless of the fairness.

as for "Europeans consider Americans as inexplicably stupid". Yeah, we pretty much do, but then we are coming from a background in monarchy (true monarchy I mean, not like the monarchy in the UK) where the "ruling class" had ultimate power, which was partially tied to the church. Therefore we tend to strongly believe in a secular society, and one where the distribution of power is more even. America seems to have lost some of that by being free by default.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[mike2R]

That reminds me of something a Chinese friend of mine said once. He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability. He said people loath corrupt party officials and the like and there is real pressure for reform in that area, but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

That, and a real fear that democracy would lead to instability and even the possibility of civil war, means (according to one affluent, western educated Chinese) that the push for democracy within China is far less than a Westerner might suppose.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[Pharmboy]

The problem is Manifest Destiny. Many American Christians truly believe that God® has commissioned us here in the land of milk and honey to spread democracy to the rest of the world. This is why so many have been missionaries over the years, and why our foreign policy is so phucked up. I understand why we might prefer to do business with countries that have some form of representative government, but we can't force China/Cuba/etc to become "democratic" at the end of a gun barrel or by giving them bibles.

If the US would focus more on "freedom" and less on delivering it to other countries, we would be a stronger country. Right now, our freedoms are eroding, our jobs are at risk, our manufacturing base is rusting away, half of our allies stay pissed at us, all due a national self-rightousness that arrogantly assumes that ALL countries should have a form of government just like ours. And yes, I was in the military, as was my father, so I'm not an isolationist or pacifist. I want us to have a strong defense, but the American delusion of Manifest Destiny undermines it.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[YesDinosaursDidExist]

North Koreans like their government too.

Re:What is the atmosphere inside China?

[c 0xFF]

He said that there is little demand for democracy among ordinary Chinese, but there is a huge wish for accountability.... but that democracy isn't really seen as relevant to that debate.

Your friend hit the nail on the head there. In theory, Democracy should be all about accountability: prove you did a good job or get kicked out. Instead what we see (especially in young democracies) is that corruption is still there, but in a slightly different form than before.

Honestly, I don't think democracy is the be-all end-all of governance. A very good step in the right direction for China might be to find a way to hold their officials accountable to the people in some way.

A good idea, if a way can be found.

Re:Yes, yes, the title.

[maxwell demon]

Hey, maybe when the Chinese internet turns into the Chinese LAN, they can have huge Chinese LAN parties! Of course, these LAN parties will have to be harmonized by the government and consist of 72 hours of back to back dota, counter-strike, and wow. Coincidentally, the Chinese government is also interested in recruiting new operators for their virtual soldiers.

The Chinese cannot have LAN parties because there's only one party allowed, the communist party.

Interesting

[sonicmerlin]

You know it's weird. I'm actually in Japan right now, living in a dorm with a lot of Chinese foreign students. One of them told me how his father was actually one of the students at Tiananmen Square, and after the incident burned a book filled with writings of his classmates so that the government wouldn't find it and record his previous affiliations on his resume.

This guy also tells me how shocked he was after he came to Japan and was finally able to see the Tiananmen videos on Youtube (blocked in China of course), and how it's changed his views of his government. According to him, a lot of Chinese youth are extremely nationalistic, and are "brainwashed" by the government. The government hires people to parrot their views of events as if they're normal citizens telling their own personal viewpoints.

He told me he himself used to like his life in China, but now that he's realized the truth about his government, he'd prefer not to go back to China after his study period in Japan is over.

Not entirely on-topic, and mod me down if you must, but I just thought it was interesting how this Chinese guy has become disconnected from his country and his own people, who seem to be influenced so heavily by their government.

Re:Interesting

[Jah-Wren Ryel]

He's also a kid though. Kids tend to be a lot more easy to radicalize because they have don't have as many roots put down yet nor have they been tempered with much in the way of life experiences. Let him marry a nice chinese girl and then he's going to have to start thinking about what its like to raise kids in a country without any family nearby. Chances are he'll also have to raise his family in a mostly foreign culture. Obviously plenty of Chinese people have decided that all that was worth it for the freedom and opportunities available outside of China. But its still a hard decision to make, and plenty of Chinese have decide to go back instead - especially with the growing prosperity back home.

Instead of google.com.hk

[quickgold192]

If Google *really* wanted to rock the boat, it should have redirected Chinese visitors to www.google.com.tw.

I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and she

[BlackBloq]

I was in a hot tube with a Chinese national and she was sooooooo convinced that Taiwan is "owned" by China and she basically parroted the party line down to every illogical point. She was fresh off the boat, I would like to see her opinion after she gets to see an unfiltered reality, without paid fake people telling her a fake reality. The Chinese government even tracks its own dissidents, and plants undercover agents inside of the groups while out of country! It's like they live in the matrix! Time to unplug meatbags, don't fear the truth!

Re:I was in a hot tub with a Chinese national and

[aflag]

Interesting. I was in bed with this Chineses national, wearing nothing but a banana hammock, and she told me how she loves China. She began arguing quite unlogically that freedom isn't everything and that she likes that the government is taking care that she only reads what's important. She argued that their slashdot doesn't have any trolls and everyone is insightful or interesting.

After that we began to talk about free software and things just got out of hands. Time to taste the freedom! I told her while I opened a laptop with Debian Linux running. She was quite unreasonable about it and left. They are all brain washed, I tell you!