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Security Holes Found In "Smart" Meters

Hugh Pickens writes "In the US alone, more than 8 million smart meters, designed to help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time, have been deployed by electric utilities and nearly 60 million should be in place by 2020. Now the Associated Press reports that smart meters have security flaws that could let hackers tamper with the power grid, opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off, or even allow attackers to get into the utilities' computer networks to steal data or stage bigger attacks on the grid. Attacks could be pulled off by stealing meters — which can be situated outside of a home — and reprogramming them, or an attacker could sit near a home or business and wirelessly hack the meter from a laptop, according to Joshua Wright, a senior security analyst with InGuardians Inc, a vendor-independent consultant that performs penetration tests and security risk assessments." "Wright says that his firm found 'egregious' errors, such as flaws in the meters and the technologies that utilities use to manage data (PDF) from meters. For example, smart meters encrypt their data but the digital 'keys' needed to unlock the encryption are stored on data-routing equipment known as access points that many meters relay data to so stealing the keys lets an attacker eavesdrop on all communication between meters and that access point (PDF). 'Even though these protocols were designed recently, they exhibit security failures we've known about for the past 10 years,' says Wright."

224 comments

  1. Security holes found... by Cornwallis · · Score: 1

    And this is a big surprise?

    1. Re:Security holes found... by RAMMS+EIN · · Score: 1

      I was about to write a similar post.

      Although this is certainly bad, it doesn't surprise me at all.

      And the fact that we've come to _expect_ such vulnerabilities in widely deployed systems is very, very sad.

      --
      Please correct me if I got my facts wrong.
    2. Re:Security holes found... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Would be a big surprise if this was done by a private firm. But not getting things right when it's the government?... You're right, nothing surprising.

      Huh? How is the government involved in this? Energy generation in the US is private industry.

    3. Re:Security holes found... by Sique · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Where do you see the government involved here? As far as I understood the article those meters are to be distributed by the utilities, and those (at least in California) are privately owned.
      So I call that a cheap shot from someone who wants his prejudices confirmed.

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    4. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      While utilities are privately owned, they are still the most heavily regulated businesses in the country.

      I do agree blaming the government in this case is a straw man.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    5. Re:Security holes found... by ZDRuX · · Score: 3, Funny

      Typical slashdot comment I suppose? Don't RTFA and post assumptions? I dunno :)

      --
      The magical number is: 09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
    6. Re:Security holes found... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      Uhh, it is pretty obvious. These meters are very screwed up, so the government has to be behind it. Government always screws things up, private industry is perfect. This is a well known fact, with centuries of experience to prove it.

      Don't believe me? Check this out! "Government always screws things up, private industry is perfect" -- Ronald Reagan

      I bet you feel stupid now that you know that God disagrees with you!

    7. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It's heavily regulated for a reason (essential service, safety, etc) just like medicine and nuclear. Some things should be regulated.

      In fact if it wasn't regulated, more screwups like this would happen.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    8. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Regulation should be a last resort. The last thing I want is the government interfering with my right to make a living. And what I do on my own time is my own business.

      But regulation is a set of rules, and are there for safety. Utilities, nuclear, medical, all have the ability to kill someone if standards are not maintained. Regulation should exist in these areas. What part of that don't you agree with?

      And if you think heath care which is a social program, and socialism is the same thing, then you dont know the meanings of the words. Probably because you watch too much Fox news.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    9. Re:Security holes found... by flyneye · · Score: 1

      I think the big surprise to me is that all you have to do to get attention on this subject is point out obvious flaws in anything.
      For instance, we'll just change things a bit and dress this story up a bit:

              In the U.S. alone there are more than 8million smart meters. However there are even more cars which could be used to disrupt the powergrid.
      It has been found that cars are easily hacked, stolen and could be used to fill with explosives, set a brick on the pedal and send it hurtling into major power stations.
              In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart meters.However there are several electrical service trucks filled with equipment,materials, manuals and tools that could facilitate hacking the powergrid. It could be done by a hoodlum or an employee with a chip on their shoulder and Allah in their heart.
                In the U.S. alone there are more than 8 million smart metres. However this could all be rendered useless by a power company who wish to pad their profits by reprogramming them to steal directly from our direct draft accounts by substituting a number representing a larger amount of electricity consumed by a homeowner.

            Now you tell me what is the more likely picture here. Now where do I sign up to receive remuneration for finding obvious security flaws?

      I've somehow lost my fascination for articles like this. Seems they're just a pay fodder hack for writers to get one by an ignorant editor.

               

      --
      *Repent!Quit Your Job!Slack Off!The World Ends Tomorrow and You May Die!
    10. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      The only thing I'm going to respond to (because I don't have the time for all your other points right now) is that about Fox News.

      I actually don't watch it at all. I don't watch CNN or it's ilk either. I get my news from whatever source is presented to me on any particular issue (and if I'm presented with several sources, I tend to look at them all).

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    11. Re:Security holes found... by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 1

      Typical slashdot comment I suppose? Don't RTFA and post assumptions? I dunno :)

      Or slightly on topic weak jokes, don't forget those!

      Oh, All your lights are belong to us!

      Wow, almost forgot that...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    12. Re:Security holes found... by feepness · · Score: 1

      Would be a big surprise if this was done by a private firm. But not getting things right when it's the government?... You're right, nothing surprising.

      I'm not a big fan of government waste either, but security problems seem to be a universal evil.

    13. Re:Security holes found... by commodore64_love · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I consider electricity to be regulated because it's a monopoly. Ditto cable television. And natural gas providers.

      If they were not monoplies then there'd be no need to regulate them. If a company sucked customers would simply walk away, and thereby drive the company into bankrupcty (as they did to Circuit City).

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    14. Re:Security holes found... by poetmatt · · Score: 1

      Smart meters rely on (among other things) - FIPS. Clearly the wrong level of it. Meanwhile, even FIPS isn't that reliable. /I just started to do work involving the stuff //FIPS is in basically everything in the US

    15. Re:Security holes found... by feepness · · Score: 1

      Utilities are government granted and regulated monopolies, so the line blurs.

      That said, security issues aren't just the province of government.

    16. Re:Security holes found... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Right, same here in NY. They were selected by our utility company to save themselves the money they used to pay meter readers.

      But this is nothing new. I recall reading of flaws in these many months ago. It could be that some people are just beginning to notice, and then hoping the government will step in and pay for new ones.

      Or, maybe like viruses on Windows machines, they serve some ulterior purposes.

    17. Re:Security holes found... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      You left out the most important!

      In soviet russia, power meter turns YOU on.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    18. Re:Security holes found... by FatdogHaiku · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, technically once it's hacked it "turns on you"...

      --
      You have the right to remain sentient. If you give up the right to remain sentient, you will be elected to public office
    19. Re:Security holes found... by BronsCon · · Score: 1

      Bravo, kind sir, bravo.

      --
      APK quotes people (including myself) without context and should not be trusted. Just thought you should know.
    20. Re:Security holes found... by shentino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'd say the government is at fault for allowing shoddy meters to get hooked up in the first place.

      I thought utilities were supposed to be regulated.

    21. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Is the police force socialism too? Or the justice system? Firefighters? All funded by taxpayers for the 'public good'. Same thing in your eyes apparently.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    22. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of the strategies of someone who is about to lose an argument is to avoid the real issue by attacking the presenter on unrelated issues.

      So clearly you don't know the meanings of the words, and think they are equivalent. Must be the Fox news / fundamentalist education.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    23. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Informative

      Thats good that you dont listen to Fox. Because Roger Ailes (chief of Fox news) has publicly stated that he's not interested in accuracy, only ratings. This results in things like with the heath care debate, where Fox creates the controversy to create a story for ratings.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    24. Re:Security holes found... by SteelWing · · Score: 1

      Odds are if anyone is smart enough to exploit said holes they would probably just lower the reading on the meter for a lower power bill. Calm the fuck down already. This article has alarmist written all over it.

    25. Re:Security holes found... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah. See, the problem with this plan is that the government is not your mommy. It doesn't care about you, it isn't remotely honest, and it can't be swayed by market forces because it can take as much of your money as it wants any time it's in the mood.

      Trusting the government to provide you security is simply a case of Stockholm syndrome. Snap out of it.

    26. Re:Security holes found... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The government however IS creating the incentives that is driving the so called Smart Grid deployment. The power companies, needless to say, ARE to blame for the way they're paving ahead, but, the REASON they're doing so is these incentives. The government is just throwing money at them to accellerate deployment, and they're biting. Neither side is giving enough care to security.

    27. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wow thats a great attitude. Lets completely deregulate everything. If I wanted to make my own nuclear power source and run it without shielding and bury the waste in the backyard, that would be ok with you. Genius.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    28. Re:Security holes found... by sumdumass · · Score: 0

      Actually, the police force, fire services and for the most part initially started in the private sector. It was only transferred to the public sector after it proved to be ineffective or biased to some degree. There still are private police, fire, and justice systems in place to this day, even inside the US.

      But to address your question more specifically even though I am not the person you are responding to, yes they are examples of socialism. However they are excepted examples of socialism because the inherit nature makes it something that everyone wants at some point in time and for the most part, they are delivered by the right part of government in which you have the most control over.

      However, there is a clear distinction between these services and any other services the government offers like this new health care rubbish. This is especially the case when the government was designed to be a restricted government that ensures freedom to the people. If you look at the police and fire departments, even most of the justice system, it is completely controlled by the local governments and not the federal government.

      So to recap, it doesn't really matter who thinks it's a good idea or not, what matters is which part of government is taking and providing. In the health care BS just passed, it's socialism at it's worse because the federal government has no constitutional authority to do what it just did. State's on the other hand may have the authority depending on their state constitutions and local governments may have the authority depending largely on the same. There is a reason why the Tenth Amendment says "The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people." And the biggest objections to the bill of rights being added to the constitution was that there wouldn't be a need to ban the federal government from doing things not expressly granted or provided for in the constitution. They said the bill of rights was a waste of time worrying about things that couldn't happen. So most socialist programs are rightly in place at the state and local levels in which they properly belong.

    29. Re:Security holes found... by kd5zex · · Score: 1

      One of the strategies of someone who is about to lose an argument is to avoid the real issue by attacking the presenter on unrelated issues.

      Now, how about addressing some of the AC's points.

    30. Re:Security holes found... by vegiVamp · · Score: 1

      That should bring back the spark in your relationship, yeah.

      --
      What a depressingly stupid machine.
    31. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Thats good that you dont listen to Fox. Because Roger Ailes (chief of Fox news) has publicly stated that he's not interested in accuracy, only ratings.

      Are you naive enough to believe that MSNBC/CNN/NBC/CBS/ABC are motivated by some other consideration?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    32. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      One of the strategies of someone who is about to lose an argument is to avoid the real issue by attacking the presenter on unrelated issues.

      That would explain why the Democrats used the committee system to muzzle GOP health care reform ideas while claiming that they were the "Party of No" and uninterested in compromise.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    33. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Tenth amendment. If a state wanted to pass its own law to supersede the federal one, then they have the right to go ahead. The entire program is optional, so it is not forcing anyone to do anything. So there is no violation of the Tenth Amendment whatsoever.

      Also, you are confusing 'socialism' with 'social program'

      Socialism definition: "Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources." I dont see how this has anything to do with heath care reform.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    34. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      That would explain why the Democrats used the committee system to muzzle GOP health care reform ideas while claiming that they were the "Party of No" and uninterested in compromise.

      The GOP heath care reform ideas were nothing less than an attempt to kill the bill, not modify it. This was stated publicly by the GOP leaders.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    35. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      No but at least they make an attempt to check their facts. Fox is notorious for outright lies in their broadcasts, solely to create controversy and ratings.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    36. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      He hasn't made any points worth addressing.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    37. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      Yeah, the other networks would never do such thing.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    38. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      The bill as written deserved to be killed. It will bankrupt our country (the CBO score was based on incorrect assumptions and accounting that puts Enron to shame), do nothing to reduce health care costs and strip away my right to decide whether or not I want to purchase health insurance.

      There was a bipartisan reform bill that was brave enough to address some of the underlying issues in our medical system (breaking the linkage between insurance and employment for instance) but the Democratic leadership never allowed it to go anywhere.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    39. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      The only news I watch on a regular basis is local/regional news. Even then, I don't take them as the final word on something.

      I've watched and read enough to know that ObamaCare is a "Bad Thing" and should not be regarded as anything else.

      That isn't to say I'm not for health care reform, but price controls on insurance premiums is not that fix. The health care industry is over-regulated and has been given extremely pricey mandates that have not shown any benefit to patient care (such as mandatory, 100% e-records). Those sorts of things are what is driving up the price of health care as hospitals have to put more and more money into IT infrastructure. That means less money for everything else that they should be doing (such as attempting to heal people of their ills).

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    40. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Now to respond to your other points.

      Regulation should be a last resort.

      Completely agreed, and in this case unnecessary as current regulations are what is driving up the cost of health care. Sure e-records might be easier for a doctor to access, but it's also easier for anyone else to access too. Now you're dumping thousands/hundreds of thousands/millions into added IT infrastructure and having to take that money away from patient care. That's just one of many cost-increasing regulations that have shown no benefit at all.

      Don't even get me started on the FDA and their long, extremely expensive, regulatory process for medications (and I do think there should be some regulatory process for medications, I just think the FDA model is extremely flawed).

      I won't diverge into other bodies that you mentioned (nuclear, utility). I'll just say that I agree that some degree of regulation needs to exist, but not at the current levels (with the possible exception of nuclear regulatory controls due to it's never-ceasing physical danger to the public).

      Regulatory controls should exist but their shouldn't be so many as to continuously drive up the cost of the service being provided. When that starts happening, you have too much regulation (such as in health care).

      For just one example of how ObamaCare is going to hurt the public, according to a March 19, 2010 article at Chicago Breaking News, Caterpillar has already come out and said that in the first year of ObamaCare alone, it will cost the company over $100,000,000 to be in compliance. That's in the first year along. I imagine (without having more information from Caterpillar that's all I can do) that proceeding years only will be more expensive to keep in compliance. This is going to kill the economy.

      ObamaCare is going to cost the government at least $950,000,000,000 to implement. How is this good? How is it good to force people to buy a minimum plan that they might not be able to afford or face IRS imposed fines (and I don't even know why they are involved and I don't want to know why)? No, this isn't universal health care. This is socialized medicine. This is a government mandate to keep the poor poor and the rich rich (and don't give me any gaff about those making over $250k being taxed more to pay for all this, that's plain old forced wealth redistribution, something that cannot be maintained as eventually the rich will either move over seas and renounce their citizenship to avoid paying the tax or we all become equally poor).

      No, this is a bad plan all around. I don't see anything good coming out of this.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    41. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Well if the US tried to adopt a good working system like Canada, Republicans heads would actually explode.

      Yes this system is guaranteed to be flawed because of partisan politics - everyone is out to protect their own interests. But it is a necessary step and hopefully all of this 'its evil socialist nazi' nonsense will be ignored, and the true issues will be addressed.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    42. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      The system is already broken and costs too much - the insurance companies are getting rich off of peoples health problems.

      The US currently spends more per person (now $7500 per year) on heath care than any other country. And that includes about 15% of the country not getting even basic health care. Canada spends about $1000 less per person for equivalent care, and everyone is covered.

      So I fail to see how adopting a system that the majority of the other countries in the world can implement cheaper than the US, will cost the US even more than the current ridiculous costs. Unless you are somehow saying Americans are completely incompetent.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    43. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      The system is already broken and costs too much - the insurance companies are getting rich off of peoples health problems.

      So Obama's solution is to mandate that I must do business with them or else? Interesting way to solve the problem. Democrats attack on the insurance industry to drum up populist support while at the same time cutting backroom deals with them to buy their support and force every American citizen to do business with them. Makes you wonder who the Democrats are working for, doesn't it?

      So I fail to see how adopting a system that the majority of the other countries in the world can implement cheaper than the US, will cost the US even more than the current ridiculous costs.

      Those "ridiculous costs" are driven by a number of factors few of which are addressed by the reform legislation. Does the legislation do anything to end the practice of relying on insurance for routine expenses? Such practices shield consumers from the true cost of their care and encourage over consumption of medical services. The reform legislation does nothing to address this issue. Nor does it address the linkage of employment to insurance. In fact it reinforces this link by disallowing those of us with employer provided insurance from shopping in the exchanges.

      Of course it was never the intention of the Democrats to fix any of the underlying issues with our system. Their overriding concern was to create a new entitlement program. They cared little for whether or not said program was sustainable and even less for those of us who are trapped in the existing broken system. In fact their "reform" will increase costs and take away what little free choice remains in the American medical system.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    44. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      So Obama's solution is to mandate that I must do business with them or else?

      That's not what the bill says at all. If you currently have private or company insurance, nothing about this bill will change that.

      Those "ridiculous costs" are driven by a number of factors few of which are addressed by the reform legislation. Does the legislation do anything to end the practice of relying on insurance for routine expenses? Such practices shield consumers from the true cost of their care and encourage over consumption of medical services. The reform legislation does nothing to address this issue

      A non-issue because it is demonstrably untrue. In Canada, you never pay, nor ever see a bill. Yet the costs are significantly lower than the US.

      Of course it was never the intention of the Democrats to fix any of the underlying issues with our system. Their overriding concern was to create a new entitlement program.

      Conservative bullshit

      In fact their "reform" will increase costs and take away what little free choice remains in the American medical system.

      Again, how is this more expensive? If every other country can provide free health care that is less expensive than the US, why cant the US implement a similar program?

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    45. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      That's not what the bill says at all.

      That's exactly what this bill says. Buy insurance or else. Have you even read the bill that you are so ardently defending?

      If you currently have private or company insurance, nothing about this bill will change that.

      That's little more than a talking point. You can't promise that my company will keep my insurance. In fact by raising the cost of insurance you've made it less likely that they will do so. A better solution that would have required political courage (something lacking on both sides of the aisle I'm afraid) would have been to break the linkage between employment and insurance. That would have been painful in the short term but beneficial in the long term.

      In Canada, you never pay, nor ever see a bill. Yet the costs are significantly lower than the US.

      Apples to oranges. What do they pay for prescription drugs in Canada? How much do their Doctors make? What does their tort system look like?

      Conservative bullshit

      Calling something 'bullshit' does not rebut it.

      If every other country can provide free health care that is less expensive than the US, why cant the US implement a similar program?

      What makes you think that the legislation rammed through Congress bears any resemblance to the system used by "every other" country? It's not single-payer, it's a disgusting hybrid of excessive government regulation (telling you what kind of insurance you can buy) and excessive government mandate (telling you that you HAVE to buy it).

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    46. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      What do they pay for prescription drugs in Canada?

      About half of what the US pays

      How much do their Doctors make?

      For the most part, very similar to US doctors.

      What does their tort system look like?

      Tort is an aspect, but has very little to do with medical expenses overall.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    47. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      About half of what the US pays

      So why are we paying twice the amount for the same product? Why did the Democrats climb into bed with big pharma rather than address this fundamental imbalance?

      Tort is an aspect, but has very little to do with medical expenses overall.

      Really? And what do you suppose their doc's spend on malpractice insurance vs. what ours spend? Moot point in any event. You admit there are major differences between our system and the Canadian one, thus proving that your prior comparison was (to use your words) bullshit.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    48. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      It is socialist. You obviously have no comprehension of the word "socialist".

      And Canada's system is not any better than what we have (oh wait, what's that, you mean you don't know about the thousands of Canadians that come to the US each year for services that they would have to wait months, even years, to receive in Canada, say it ain't so!)

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    49. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      PG&E is private like paying income tax is voluntary. It is really a matter of what is meant by the words. PG&E does whatever the government tells them to do, but other than that they are free to do whatever they want when they are told it is ok. I think it might have been more appropriate, or at least context free, to say "This is the type of quality you get when consumers have no choice". PG&E only has to work so hard as it is necessary to keep your business... and a democratic energy policy by way of whatever will please the most voters whether or not it works has played a role here.

      Also, these smart meters do not generate power making at least your last statement irrelevant, as long as we are nit picking terms here.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    50. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      As with everything including socialism, it isn't an argument about whether or not it should be regulated or rationed or whatever but about WHO gets to regulate and ration. When things are not regulated they can get out of control when it is important. That does not provide any basis or argument for any particular person or group to step in and do the regulating.

      Every moment of your life and all things around you are regulated in one manner or another. For example rainfall is heavily regulated by temperature, and how often I see my doctor is regulated by how well I am feeling and how much money I have. Whether or not a person opens a business is regulated by ... err.. you get the point.

      Before trying to fix something and reaching for the biggest tool you can find, ask yourself this question: What is a government? Where does it come from? What can governments do? What can government NOT do? A really fun question is what are some good things governments can and can not do vs bad things governments can and can not do contrasted with should not and list why.

      Sometimes I wish I could punch Thomas Hobbes in the face for not explaining his work to people that would wish to take his observations out of context and try to reason that they were laws of nature and society. His observation was that the mass majority will comply with ever increasing government because any single step towards greater control always seems less harmful than the idea of "returning to a state of nature", or no government. Further, people tend to look at government control as freedom from responsibility, which is generally true, and for the consumer relief from responsibility by government means it may or may not only be easier for them such that it is a win win situation. Health Care for example: the class of individuals needing medical care mutually exclusive of medical providers believes that either 1)they are going to get something for free, 2) nothing is going to change for them. This class so greatly out numbers health care providers that their opinion is irrelevant. Therefore, logically, median voter says government takeover of health care can be good thing. It would also baffle the mind of most people to understand why anyone could possibly oppose a perpetually more powerful government. Also, if you agree with Hobbes (which is so deeply rooted in modern western thought anyway) we "know" that government only gets larger because the only way for it to get smaller would be for a significant number of people so opposed to whatever the government is doing that they would be willing to do without it completely. Such a situation is SO rare, who cares, right? Next, once we have accepted that government is going to only get bigger, and just take the leap forward that since progress is directly correlated to the size of government therefore government tends towards improving society.

      Yeah, so all your arguments about how if it is important then we need to create a government bureaucracy, or more so, you are going to keep sitting on your ass while someone else both creates and another becomes the victim of a government bureaucracy is no argument at all, just a shibboleth of your political ideology.

      And can you please explain your signature? Is your argument: Socialism = bad, Universal Health Care = good, therefore Universal Health Care != Socialism? It is almost like you make an argument against socialism, but then don't ... therefore you are right. What?!? Back to the earlier check your reality and try again questions. What is a government? What is the general structure or philosophy behind a socialist ideology? Where when and how does it work and for what purpose? Where may or may not this ideology be incompatible with the theory of what a government can and can not be, and under what circumstances or steps might be taken to mitigate possible shortfalls of socialism?

      So how about this:
      Health Care is a good thing and universal elements of it are tried and true rules of th

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    51. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Actually, France's health care system runs over 2,000,000,000 into the red EVERY YEAR.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    52. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Perchance could this congress and administrations approach, method, and ideology driving the drafting and passing of this particular bill be an utter disaster and for no reason what so ever related to any point brought up or repeated ad infinium via any commentator on Fox News? If thousands of pages of legislation could be summed up in one word being "good" or "bad", isn't it perfectly possible both "sides" could be right for all the wrong reasons? The mass majority of people I know are completely apathetic to this entire process, are not following the debate in any way, but generally trust the government at least in so far as they do not believe there is anything they can do even if they did care, and they hope that things get better.

      And though it was a draft version of several iterations ago, I do not know a single person other than myself that has read in its entirety ANY version of the health care bill. I would be confounded to believe that anywhere near an upper limit of 10% of congress independently read the entire bill even once.

      When I read it, I did not think it was a very good or very well thought out plan. Not fire and brimstone OH GOD WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE!!! but just that it was so extreme disproportionately to how well it seemed to be thought out, I personally was not a fan of it. Well intended goals are not enough to make a good rule of law, and with all the games being played on both sides, this debate is too serious to enact major, sweeping legislation that will rule over people that actually do good things in this world like doctors, and people that build and manage hospitals, or medical equipment, or just about ANYBODY involved in the medical field in so far as they make decisions over what to do with their bodies as much as the patients do.

      Yeah, so screw Ailes, screw Fox, screw Obama, and every corrupt member of Congress.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    53. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Well based on their ratings, it obviously isn't money... Unless kissing enough ass to get a bail out counts.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    54. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      I agree, two commentators fighting to kiss the most big brother ass does not create any controversy or ratings. I am so glad we finally agree on something. We should reflect on this moment.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    55. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      I don't think many people understand this whole federalism thing. Not all police are Federal agents, and I don't think there is a Federal fire department other than the requirement that all naval officers must be trained as fireman, but they don't deal in domestic issues / wild fires. If people like the way police and fire departments work then that is an argument to keep tax dollars at the local level. The fact that the fewest tax dollars go to local government and the most money goes to the fed is ass backwards. Also, to my understanding, private patrol industry is booming while many publically funded police departments are struggling terribly.

      This isn't about public health care system versus private; every state is heavily involved in the medical industry in their states, and to my understanding both "sides" agree that there is no state that is doing a very good job of it. And strangely enough each "side" are using that as their respective core argument for and against a federal take over.

      If I were a welfare baby hoping to win the dole, I would prefer each state be left to try whatever it likes and when some state finally comes up with a system that doesn't suck ass, that is where I will move to. Funny enough, if you are on the complete other side and don't think you will ever get sick, but just in case keep enough cash on hand in case you require the services of a doctor, then you can move to the state of your choice as well. And really, if it isn't that important, what is with all the debate anyway?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    56. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Uhh... then I bet you did not read the bill. Resource allocation is one of the stated purposes, and the entire student loan industry has been redesigned for the purpose of production such that we do not need to count on a single doctor not packing up and leaving the country as fast as they can get their affairs in order. McCarthy is dead so arguing on the basis of "ITS SOCIALisjikl2@$#" really doesn't mean anything anymore. But for whatever little meaning that word may actually have you have clearly demonstrated why this IS socialism, whether or not that actually brings anything meaningful to the "debate" which I argue it does not. The quality of this bill does not in any way hinge on proving that it can or can not fit into a box called socialism. Its classification either way is nothing more than a foot note for a history textbook.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    57. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      And both Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama have stated repeatedly that this bill was only a step necessary in killing the private medical and related insurance industry BEFORE implementing a single payer health care system. Each of them have repeatedly assured the public in response to attacks by GOP members, conservatives, or anyone for that matter that the goal of THIS bill is NOT a single payer system or a government take over at this point. So yes, the unified opposition by conservatives, the GOP, and most every state legislature for what it is worth is to attack the foundation of this entire bill and not just modify it to ensure their own piece of the pork pie. Pretty admirable considering such division in the democratic leadership of congress that "considering they were most likely going to pass it anyway" that at least a RINO like Olympia Snowe could have likely raked in enough pork that nobody in her state would ever have needed to work again. Come on, when you reach the line not even Olympia Snowe won't cross, you just got to saw "wow".

      So just to be clear, the unified stand against doorway prying legislation is a point for or against the GOP leadership in your book?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    58. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Well, this bill is not like any system in place by any other country, and at very least I know that you did not get your numbers from the WHO Report. I am shocked to hear anyone say that cost aside the US is on par with any country (Nancy Pelosi believes that Cuba has better health care than we do), most people say "its the best!" or "its the worst!" so I just got to ask now that you are making quantitative statements, might you be willing to share your source on those particular figures? Not even necessarily disagreeing, on the contrary I think such statements with sources make a meaningful contribution to an otherwise purely philosophically theoretical debate.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    59. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Thank you! It frequently bothers me how often the points you have made are completely over looked by "supporters" of this bill.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    60. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      Well, fundamentally at one point because it is very expensive to be a leader. Nearly ALL medical equipment, especially new anything from MRI machines to drugs are both developed and manufactured in the United States. R&D (lets just skip embedded taxes at the moment) are nearly the entire cost all medical technology and particularly pharmaceuticals. One way that countries have saved major bucks on health care is to not contribute to the system but depend completely on used and after market sales of devices. Many countries are too small and do not have the capital to create a market for some revolutionary device. It makes more sense for countries to send their best and brightest to the United States to collaborate with researchers from other countries, let all the early adopters dump all their money into the product in the US such that in 10 to 15 years the product will be cheap enough to bring to their own country. That or counterfeit the products; popular enough in many countries (which I am not entirely against so long as they are willing to bear the consequences of trade sanctions, but that is an entirely different issue).

      So on that argument 1) The US can not possibly do what other countries do because there is no country like the United States for us to leech off of or at least invest into, though I expect India or China will be more than willing to try to be such a haven, and 2) Us changing our system will be devastating to every other country that depends upon us for what out of date technology we are getting rid of at any particular point (Look what cash for clunkers did to the used car market, radically regressive legislation).

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    61. Re:Security holes found... by sumdumass · · Score: 0

      Tenth amendment. If a state wanted to pass its own law to supersede the federal one, then they have the right to go ahead. The entire program is optional, so it is not forcing anyone to do anything. So there is no violation of the Tenth Amendment whatsoever.

      You need to revisit your constitution. The state cannot pass a law that supersedes the federal law as the federal laws are constitutionally the supreme law of the land. The best they can do is question the constitutional authority to implement the law and claim it cannot apply to them. This was the argument with the Medical Marijuana in California that lost. This is also why the feds are able to arrest, trial, and convict people obeying the state laws.

      Unfortunately, the federal laws against Marijuana and it's jurisdiction hangs on a premise that violates the constitution/ isn't implicitly allowed by it also. The ban on prosecutions is not a law saying the feds won't prosecute them, it's an executive order saying federal resources will not be used and that didn't even happen until Obama got in office.

      Socialism definition: "Socialism refers to the various theories of economic organization which advocate either public or direct worker ownership and administration of the means of production and allocation of resources." I dont see how this has anything to do with heath care reform.

      First of all, quit calling it health care reform, it isn't. It's health insurance reform and this bill does nothing to control the costs of health care, it only mandates insurance coverage and controls what those agencies can do. It also regulates access to coverage and sets up a mechanism for the government to provide that coverage. Nothing in this bill reforms health care except the one provision that basically says do what works which is what is generally done in the real world anyways. The only difference is now there is a large database that can be accessed to determine the most effective things that work.

      Anyways, what if has to do with health care is simply that it is the topic in which the question was asked about if something was socialism. Your also wrong on your socialism definition. You are only looking at part of the picture to the definition.

      As it is likely that you pulled your definition from Wikipedia seeing how it's almost word for word pulled from the site, I will direct you to more details on the same page. If you pay attention, you will see that police, fire, an even this insurance takeover is socialist and fall under either a Socialist Planned Economy or State-Directed Economy or both.

    62. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      The US pays more primarily because of the ridiculous overhead in trying to account for every penny and bill everyone. It's lawyers and accountants, nothing more.

      And what do you suppose their doc's spend on malpractice insurance vs. what ours spend?

      Are you saying US doctors are completely incompetent? Put that with your attitude that the US is incapable of running a cost effective medical system and you seem to have a pretty low opinion of Americans.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    63. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      My sole point was in certain industries and services, there HAS to be regulation. If you think that corporations without any form of regulation will just do whats best for everyone then you are a complete idiot. You just have to look at the environmental damage certain mining and oil companies have done to the environment operating in countries without regulations as proof. I am NOT an advocate of bigger government, in fact I think governments are too big now. You didn't seem to actually read what I was saying and just made grandiose assumptions.

      And can you please explain your signature? Is your argument: Socialism = bad, Universal Health Care = good, therefore Universal Health Care != Socialism? It is almost like you make an argument against socialism, but then don't ... therefore you are right. What?!?

      That isn't anything close to what I said. People seem to equate social programs like health care to socialism. They are not in any way equivalent. I never made any statement as to socialism itself.

      You seem to like to take statements completely out of context just so you can get a chance to rant. Maybe you should actually listen to what others have to say and get over your arrogance.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    64. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Because they go over budget doesn't mean anything on its own. Perhaps it is underfunded, and they give heath care a low number to make the books look good.

      Regardless, the fact is the US spends vastly more per capita on heath care than any other country, while simultaneously having the largest percentage of the population without any coverage. Clearly something is wrong there.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    65. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Are you kidding me?? The Republicans are the absolute WORST in protecting of individual rights. More laws are passed by the GOP/conservatives that erode personal rights than any other.

      Republicans are also responsible for the biggest growth to government and the biggest deficit/spending in the history of the US. Look at the Homeland security that was setup under Jackass Bush. A $52 billion annual budget and an admitted $15billion in wasted contacts so far. This is government overhead and a complete waste of money. But do Republicans bitch about that? No, they'll bitch about heath care which will actually help people. Bunch of two faced bastards.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    66. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      The common statement is the US heath care is the best in the world. In reality, yes, if you can afford it you can get care in the US that you cannot reasonably get anywhere else in the world.

      However, that level of heath care is only available to maybe 10-15% of the population who can actually afford it. Insurance wont cover it so you have to pay yourself. The vast majority has the same standard of care as everyone else (Canada, Europe, Japan, and others). However about 15% of the US population has absolutely no coverage, relying on the minimum required by law. These people have the heath care equivalent of what is available in the third world.

      I'm not in heath care itself but I'm connected to the health care industry.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    67. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      That's just so wrong I don't know where to start.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    68. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      The US pays more primarily because of the ridiculous overhead in trying to account for every penny and bill everyone. It's lawyers and accountants, nothing more.

      So the solution is to mandate that everyone receive their health care though huge insurance company and/or governmental bureaucracies? Yeah, that'll fix it.

      Are you saying US doctors are completely incompetent? Put that with your attitude that the US is incapable of running a cost effective medical system and you seem to have a pretty low opinion of Americans.

      No, I have a low opinion of the American tort system. Fail for trying to change the topic rather than address the issue at hand.

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    69. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Seriously? I'm not saying that France's health care isn't good. The fact that it goes over budget EVERY year is something, though.

      We spend more on health care because we have more regulations, we have unrestricted tort suits (and this goes for all areas, not just malpractice, tort reform is desperately needed and would do more to bring down health care costs then ObamaCare), and too many middlemen involved in determining who can and cannot have a procedure (should be left to the doctor but is now left to the government (as well as how often you can go)). Non-major care shouldn't be covered insurance (doctor's visits, without insurance costs at most $50 in my area and I'm very rural; vaccines are available for as little as $18 and you can get those at freakin' WalGreens for crying out loud; basically anything non-emergency or that doesn't require surgery should be paid out of pocket, with the doctors office and patient setting up payment plans), and chiropractic care, unless for a diagnosed illness (herniated disks, spinal injury from a car wreck, etc.) should not be covered under insurance. My chiropractor was $40/visit or $120/week, yeah that's a bit expensive but if I'm willing to pay and it's not to correct anything life-threatening (e.g. I could live comfortably without it, like now), why should the insurance company be forced to pay for it?

      Get tort reform across the boards (instant lawsuit millionaires should be the exception, not the rule), get rid of some of this stupid regulations (such as the massively expensive to implement and upkeep e-records, I personally would rather risk my records getting destroyed in a fire (not so likely) then to be hacked (very likely)), and if a doctor freakin' wins a malpractice suit, quit raising his rates (that's about the only bit of regulation I would be for, keep malpractice insurers from jacking up the rates of doctors, even if they win, unless they are habitually being sued).

      That's the kind of health care reform this country needs. Not more un (or under) funded mandates, not more regulations.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    70. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      Let me rephrase my last bit about malpractice.

      If they lose, jack it up.
      If they win, leave the rate alone unless the doctor is being habitually sued. Either he has a lot of disgruntled patients or he really is doing something wrong and is just slick enough to get away with it.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    71. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1
      In this thread specifically (It was the first post of yours that I read, no I had not searched out any other comments made by you in other threads) all you gave were two lines that, to me, seemed to paint a very clear picture of a particular ideology: People can be trusted with things as long as they are not important, but important things need to be managed by government. A reasonable corollary to that theory is that unimportant tasks can be distributed, but important things are best centrally planned, which I do not know if you would agree with, but I think is something important to look at and contrast one were to agree with the first and not second. Anyway...

      I never made any statement as to socialism itself.

      That is where I was confused and why I asked the question. I realize that signatures are always out of any kind of context and never necessarily intended to be related to the current subject. Further, I never expect things like signatures to be the crosses people bear and for even the most radical criticism to be taken as a personal attack, either an analysis is relevant or irrelevant when it comes to taking apart a 13 word statement. If I didn't think you put any time or effort into what you said, what would be the point in responding? (ok, you did answer that question already)

      So rather than just saying "I disagree", I was doing my best to explain my thought process in interpreting your statement such that, if you were so inclined, you could either correct my thinking or your statement for clarity.

      You have stated you think government is too big. This tells me that at some point there is an upper limit. You say there must be regulation, and I think we just disagree on where that regulation should come from which I would be interested in discussing if you were so inclined. I would be interested in your critical opinion; I would like to find someone as arrogant and suborned as am with regard to that topic.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    72. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      I think both parties fail at protecting liberty. The Nolan test, for example, has in addition to a left and right a y-axis of libertarian vs. stateism. Mind you this was done in 1965 before there even was libertarian party and the political environment of 1965 was very different, but I think the general idea about the 5 general positions still hold true. The left generally believe in individual freedom with regard to personal matters but that the appropriate role for government is to manage / regulate the economy. Conservatives believe the opposite, that government should be a moral guide but that economic matters should be left almost entirely to the individual. Libertarianism is the belief that people are best left to manage both their own personal and economic roles in society, and stateism is where government can and should become involved in any important matter.

      In my opinion an argument between left and right, particularly in government, is not over what people can be responsible enough to manage on their own, but what evil needs to be suppressed. The left pushes for less economic freedom with philosophical objections on the right while the right pushes for less personal freedom with philosophical objections on the left. They compromise and negotiate until they both get what they want with what isn't really centrist, but stateism.

      As far as Republicans, it is all a matter of who you talk to. There is a lot of division and accusations over who is a real conservative. I differentiate "real conservatives" from "right of center", "moderate conservative", and "neo-conservative". From anyone I have heard that identifies themselves as a Republican hating conservative (but think the party can be "reclaimed") they label Bush as NOT conservative. Further, to my understanding, most "conservatives" would like to see the military come home and protect THIS country rather than going around the word "spreading democracy". IMO, congressional leadership and administration is interested in managing the entire world but for radically different reasons.

      One of the talking points I frequently hear, and I will just ask for your opinion, how do you measure the protection of individual rights? Least harm / most freedom? Namely, with regard to the medical profession, how has this particular legislation worked to ensure the individual rights and freedoms of doctors, scientists, investors, and other professionals in the medical field?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    73. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      How do you feel about people being allowed to get any treatment they want, but then needing to declare bankruptcy? I know many people have said that this is unacceptable, but I have had friends that have incurred quite unreasonable amounts of debt that they could not ever pay back due to medical treatments they could not afford, but they still received. To the best of my knowledge the worst thing that happened was that it ruined their credit score. All this really meant was that they were stuck for 7 years forced to only buy things they could afford. If that is the worst that can happen to you, I don't think that is a terribly bad thing but possibly a specific area that could be addressed rather than the industry as a whole. A criticism I have of the legislation is that it does not review ANY federal regulations that IMO have caused harm. I believe there has been a LOT of reform over the last 75 years and it has just been more regulation and not a plan to get certain things right. For example, I do not think the HMO Act has quite worked out as planned, restrictions on types of plans to reduce fraud has had some perverse consequences, and (without ranting on forever) I question the "necessary evil" relationship between the FDA and the medical industry. Not sure how else to put that concisely.

      I am also hard pressed to believe that any area of the United states in any way resembles the third world; there are many, albeit difficult, options available in the United States that while considered unreasonable to expect someone to rely upon, I think you under estimate the lack of options available in the third world, at very least with respect to internet or library access for information that might allow a person to self help. I am not arguing that it is a substitute, but think about how much people discuss and share information about medicine (ever been to an old folks home? Wow, they love to talk about drugs) and ompare that to complete ignorance. I think it is too hard to imagine. I think there are plenty of problems that can be addressed without equating it to the third world.

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    74. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      I know the despite being internationalized, the patent system is US bias. Also, the Nobel committee isn't completely objective. But, as it keeps being repeated over and over, health care in the US is 1/6 of our entire economy. No country (meaning the people) spends money on medical research like the US. Isn't that at least in part being addressed as part of the problem in this country? And just to be a little bitchy, you don't think that is just profits raked in by the evil insurance companies and plastic surgeons, do you?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
    75. Re:Security holes found... by sumdumass · · Score: 0

      I agree with your federalism comment. However, I can understand why people are so confused with the issue when the FDR initiated programs that directly benefited the people instead of the state and the federal government has used those expanded powers (namely the interstate commerce clause) to grab jurisdiction on things like minimum wage and drug laws.

      This isn't about public health care system versus private; every state is heavily involved in the medical industry in their states, and to my understanding both "sides" agree that there is no state that is doing a very good job of it. And strangely enough each "side" are using that as their respective core argument for and against a federal take over.

      If I were a welfare baby hoping to win the dole, I would prefer each state be left to try whatever it likes and when some state finally comes up with a system that doesn't suck ass, that is where I will move to. Funny enough, if you are on the complete other side and don't think you will ever get sick, but just in case keep enough cash on hand in case you require the services of a doctor, then you can move to the state of your choice as well. And really, if it isn't that important, what is with all the debate anyway?

      The biggest pushers of government health care isn't really the people who need access to health care. It's people pushing an ideology onto others for various reasons.

      Think about this, if you're poor, you generally are covered by a government program already with the exception of some single people with no children. If your wealthy, then you already have coverage because you don't want an illness to challenge your wealth. So that leaves us with is approximately 46 million Americans out of 307 million (population estimate by the census bureau last year) who do not have health coverage. If this site is to be believed, 17 million of those uninsured make $50k or more a year and could afford insurance if they wanted it or spent their money a little more wisely. That leaves us with about 29 million people out of 307 million or roughly 10% of the population that doesn't have health care insurance or is covered be an existing government program. We can dwindle that number down a little more if we look at the claim that 25% of the 29 million uninsured qualify for an existing government program but aren't enrolled for whatever reason. This would drop the number down to 21 million or so (roughly 7% of the population) but that's sort of irrelevant because they are not covered as of now.

      Now if we take this data and look at how many people support the government health care and who are apposed to it, less then half of the country support it and more then half appose it. But half of 307 million is about 125 million more people then those with no coverage. It isn't really welfare babies hoping to win the dole who are in support of this (of course there probably are some, but it's far more complex then this). What it is about is where people in general aren't satisfied with the insurance services they are getting right now and have been scared to death by claims that things will happen which might not be true in their case.

      Life time caps on services or payouts is one of them. When people take out a policy, even if it's the employer provided policy, the life time cap is known in advance but it's a "major travesty" or "unjust act" when someone gets ill who is under-insured and reaches that cap. It gets presented as if the caps are arbitrary and made to apply at the whim of the insurance provider for the sole purpose of not holding up their end of the deal. Again, this is presented in this way to advance an agenda or ideology. The caps are in place to control costs and the costs of the policy is reflected by that control. The agenda may be to get coverage they didn't pay for in the first place or to implement a socialist or political agenda like government healt

    76. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      So the solution is to mandate that everyone receive their health care though huge insurance company and/or governmental bureaucracies? Yeah, that'll fix it.

      In most other countries, the government is responsible for heathcare directly without any insurance companies. Is that what you want (it works for them).

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    77. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      How about Canada's tort law. You can only claim actual damages (not imaginary ones). So if you slip and fall, you can claim actual out of pocket expenses, not say $10million for psychological trauma.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    78. Re:Security holes found... by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      Lets pick on a point from your earlier post

      Nearly ALL medical equipment, especially new anything from MRI machines to drugs are both developed and manufactured in the United States.

      There are three major MRI manufacturers in the world. They are Siemens (German), Philips (Dutch) and GE (American). All other manufacturers use one of these three base systems. So your post is clearly wrong about MRIs since less than a third are actually made or even has R&D in the US. Of the top twelve pharmaceutical companies, six are American. Again not even close to ALL.

      One way that countries have saved major bucks on health care is to not contribute to the system but depend completely on used and after market sales of devices.

      If you think Canada, UK, Germany, France, etc only buy used equipment, then you are sorely misinformed as to the quality of their health care.

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    79. Re:Security holes found... by DarkKnightRadick · · Score: 1

      See, now there is a sane tort law. Not everything Canadian is bad.

      --
      "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way of death." Proverbs 16:25 (NKJV)
    80. Re:Security holes found... by Shakrai · · Score: 1

      In most other countries, the government is responsible for heathcare directly without any insurance companies. Is that what you want (it works for them).

      What I want is irrelevant. We are talking about the merits or lack thereof of the "reform" legislation that was passed through Congress and signed into law by President Obama. Since you admit that said legislation bears no resemblance to the health care systems of other nations and that the insurance industry is a contributing factor to the ever increasing cost of health care, I'm curious to know why you support Obamacare?

      --
      I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
      We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
    81. Re:Security holes found... by thtrgremlin · · Score: 1

      thank you. That raises a fair number of questions. And my apologies for the misuse of the term after market. I had meant to say, and it really should have preceded the term used, that they tend to buy later models. It is not a bad way to save money and I myself ration my own money in that way as often as possible. The implications are questionable, sure and was not meant as a counter argument, but just clarifying. If that is still incorrect I would be curious, but I would be shocked to hear that the NHS was ever an earlier adopter on such expensive medical equipment.

      Just to mention, would I would want to see among those 12 countries is market capitalization, discount programs, domestic sales vs exports, and private vs. public investment and PE ratio. Yes, I'm aware that GE is heavily funded by tax dollars, possibly even more reason to compare such things.

      Also, something I have found very little info on you might know more about: How does the US compare to European countries and Canada on private donations to private charity hospitals? And if you do not mind me asking, would those numbers influence your feeling at all either way / are they relevant to anything?

      --
      Want Big Business out of government? Take away the incentive and start by getting government out of big business!
  2. Same same but different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    opening the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills, remotely turn someone else's power on and off,

    While this is bad, this is the same situation as with the old, traditional meters.

    1. Re:Same same but different by peragrin · · Score: 5, Informative

      um no. with the old meters you can't jack up someone's power bill without shattering the glass globe which surrounds it. and you can't use a laptop to shut off their power. you have to physically cut the cables which leaves marks.

      So it isn't the same situation. breaking a physical lock leaves traces. using a laptop to hack the meter and kill power to each house. doesn't leave a lot of marks that can be traced.

      --
      i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
    2. Re:Same same but different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      um no. with the old meters you can't jack up someone's power bill without shattering the glass globe which surrounds it. and you can't use a laptop to shut off their power. you have to physically cut the cables which leaves marks.

      Sure you can! I saw it in a movie once! AND, the geek was able to tap into the air traffic control, credit card bureaus, all the police cars, the President's phone and an alien space ship with their Mac!

    3. Re:Same same but different by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      um no. with the old meters you can't jack up someone's power bill without shattering the glass globe which surrounds it. and you can't use a laptop to shut off their power. you have to physically cut the cables which leaves marks.

      So it isn't the same situation. breaking a physical lock leaves traces. using a laptop to hack the meter and kill power to each house. doesn't leave a lot of marks that can be traced.

      Heh, if you think that police actually investigate crimes like this, you're very optimistic. They won't even come out if someone broke into your car or house and stole all your crap... you think they'd send out a full CSI team to investigate a cut on a cable? They just tell you to call PG&E and get it fixed.

      And IIRC, there are ways of tampering with physical meters without breaking the glass.

      If I were the power company, I'd be MUCH more worried about people hacking their smart meters to get free or reduced service.

    4. Re:Same same but different by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

      Sure you can! I saw it in a movie once! AND, the geek was able to tap into the air traffic control, credit card bureaus, all the police cars, the President's phone and an alien space ship with their Mac!

      But the Mac was running Linux via VMWare, so it was really Linux that saved us all ... and fixed my credit score.

    5. Re:Same same but different by nospam007 · · Score: 1

      "um no. with the old meters you can't jack up someone's power bill without shattering the glass globe which surrounds it."

      Sure you can, just put the plug of your dryer in your neighbors cellar when he's away and you'll drive up his power bill in no time.

    6. Re:Same same but different by jonpublic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I find this whole thread amusing since I commented that I didn't like the idea of smart meters, that I was worried about them being hackable in a slashdot post last week and everyone commented in response to me that I shouldn't be worried about this kind of thing. That they couldn't be hacked and if they were, there was nothing they could do except get my power information.

      I wonder what those folks are saying today in this thread.

    7. Re:Same same but different by budgenator · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My Grandfather swore by cow-magnets on the meter enclosure, and he worked for Detroit Edison. If the old fashioned cow-magnets worked imagine what the new niobium-rear-earth magnets of today would do. Personally I think it;s an old-wives tail, but I've never checked it empirically.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    8. Re:Same same but different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Two different things! He mentions driving up your neighbors power bill by moving the gauge, while you mention driving it up by stealing the power. Stealing the power is using power that will need to be paid for. Simply changing the meter reading isn't stealing, but would still cause a world of hurt for the power company and customer. There is no way to stop people from stealing, but intoducing a new vulnerability to the system doesn't help anyone.

    9. Re:Same same but different by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 2, Informative

      Those were only effective on meters that use a spinning disc. All the new ones are digital and either the magnetism won't do shit or mess them up completely.

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    10. Re:Same same but different by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [citation needed]

  3. didn't the Chinese warn us? by cryoman23 · · Score: 1, Informative

    didn't the Chinese warn us? i mean i wasn't to long ago that i read an article here about some Chinese guy warning us about a flaw in our power grid....

    --
    epic sig..... ya i got nothing
  4. Normally, I wouldnt recomend this... by Tepshen · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ...but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, or water supplies, or any number of things you dont want folks monkeying with). Its really insane to hear about this considering how power stations and utilities are tightly regulated. It doesnt matter that the system is only open on the far end of the line because eventually someone will mess with it and show just why its a bad idea. Either make the system secure or dont make them so accessable.

    1. Re:Normally, I wouldnt recomend this... by ascari · · Score: 1

      For voting machines the use McAffee anti-virus and enabling Windows firewall are apparently deemed sufficient... :)

      You're spot on: The absurdity of these issues never ceases to amaze me.

    2. Re:Normally, I wouldnt recomend this... by volpe · · Score: 1

      OK, I'll bite: Why wouldn't you normally recommend this?

  5. How to interface with a 'smart meter' by knarf · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Let me take this opportunity to dig up my attempt at an 'Ask Slashdot' from more than 3 years ago:

    How to monitor your electricity meter

    This question was never published and thus never answered. Anyone out there with experience in this field? That IR-interface currently sits on front of the meter doing nothing at all while it would create the possibility to eg. create an accurate power use graph, power quality data - I'm on the far end of a long air cable so that is sometimes an issue - and more interesting things. I guess I'm not the only one interested in these things?

    --
    --frank[at]unternet.org
    1. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by Minupla · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not sure what things are like on your meter, a fellow at my local hacklab determined that the IR interfaces on the ones we have here strobe upon power usage much like the 'wheel' in old meters.

      Also worth checking to see if your utility offers a website to interface to yours. My wife said "they should put up a web interface to so you can see how much electricity you're using" I agreed and looked at their website and lo and behold they had. Hadn't advertised it yet, maybe still in soft launch.

      Min

      --
      On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    2. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by pnewhook · · Score: 2, Interesting

      My utility company gave me web access to my smartmeter, so I can check my daily consumption whenever I want, just like they can.

      Is that the capability you are looking for?

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    3. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by broomer · · Score: 2, Informative

      The IR is also using a simple RS232 interface (9600,8,n,1) with some fixed password XOR encryption.
      I did program(move program into device, set clock, set tarifs)/analyse(= read fault reports)/readout (check readings) these some years ago in a factory which made them for the european market.

      I did not have the time to break the encryption, but had some work on coupling these things to GPRS modems. wired connection used the same encryption back then.

      just using a breakoutbox and a second PC-port sniffing the serial data.

    4. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by a_ghostwheel · · Score: 3, Informative

      Not really a direct answer to your question, but I use TED-5000 from http://www.theenergydetective.com/index.html. So far I found a rather precise correlation between data from it and bills from electric company.

    5. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      > My utility company gave me web access to my smartmeter...

      To the meter itself or to a Web page on their server presenting what they read from it? I'd object if my meter itself was on the Net at all.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    6. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by pnewhook · · Score: 1

      My access goes to their server presenting what was read. The meter itself is on their own proprietary wireless network and not accessible from the web directly (thankfully).

      --
      Tesla was a genius. Edison however was a overrated hack who liked to torture puppies.
    7. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by orangesquid · · Score: 3, Informative

      I'm not sure about the wireless hacking from a laptop mentioned in TFS, but, as far as RF transmissions, these things can generate plenty of spread-spectrum modulation EMF when modulating the 240kHz signal carrier on wire.
      There's a good discussion about eliminating ground loops so as to avoid broadcasting the signal as a source of interference at the Technical Library; I suppose one could always use an induction receiver to go the other direction, using a loop antenna. Obviously, modification of the above designs is needed for target frequency band. AM radio circuits might be a good place to start, too.
      Actually, there are tons of good MW box loop designs that already go well below 240kHz; that page includes a calculator, and playing with some quick numbers suggests a 48cmX65cm frame [=56.5cm side length] for a 16-turn coil extending 21cm in length in parallel with four 470pF caps gives us resonance at 245kHz. Of course, with 20% tolerance ceramic discs, you may want to replace one of the 470's with a 4-40pF variable cap in parallel with anywhere from a 150pF to a 39pF paralleled with a 560pF, depending on how low or high the 470's are measuring.

      [Disclaimer: I am an RF amateur.]

      --
      --TheOrangeSquid Is it any wonder things seem so awry? We swim in a sea of confusion and don't have to think to survive
    8. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by IonOtter · · Score: 1

      My wife said "they should put up a web interface to so you can see how much electricity you're using"

      Wait...you're on Slashdot, yet you have a wife? And she's a geek too?

      That's awesome, but isn't that like, one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

      --
      [End Of Line]
    9. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Wait...you're on Slashdot, yet you have a wife? And she's a geek too?

      That's awesome, but isn't that like, one of the signs of the Apocalypse?

      No, a wife that's a geek and a gamer is a sign of the Apocalypse.

      So the Apocalypse will be happening sometime after my wedding in July.

    10. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IR port pulses with power consumption. The number of pulses per kWh, in smart meters is programmable.

      Also, in smart meters, the IR port acts as a serial port and all information stored inside can be read through the port. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANSI_C12.18

      Depending on the meter, there is a wealth of information stored. It depends on the type of meter an it's configuration. On the meter I designed there is over 8k of configuration data and something like 192k of data storage possible.

      The meter can be configured with a password. But often, sending a simple ASCII I will return the meter name and serial number.

    11. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah, the TED unit works. Their monitoring software has some quirks and some 'features' that don't actually work -- but the basic function works quite well. It uses a pair of current transformers to pickup usage rather than messing with the meter. I installed them in the control panel for our standby generator -- no room in the actual breaker panel.

      The local power company had a campaign here to sell people $200 remote readers that used the IR window -- it works, by the way. Then a couple of months later they ripped out the IR meters and replaced them with the 'smart' meter, so the tool was just expensive junk. No appologies, no refund. Jerks. Having been through this experience I am now of the opinion that if monitoring usage is your objective, then an approach like the TED (there are others out in alternate energy land) is better than being dependent on what meter you have now. Because that could be pulled tomorrow and you would be SOL.

      Knowing what the usage variations are hour by hour, minute by minute and even second by second is extremely helpful in managing loads and cutting power usage.

    12. Re:How to interface with a 'smart meter' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The IR pulses are there for the taking... Usually on the face as part of the optical port (ANSI C12.18-2005), or on the top curved portion for some manufacturers. Just mount an IR photo-transistor (in an enclosure that provides sufficient shielding from sunlight) in front of the meter's IR LED, feed the output into a comparator to clean up the pulses - then count the pulses with a PIC, Arduino, etc. Most meters in the 150 - 200 amp residential range are 1 pulse per watt/hr, although some use the old standard carried over from the mechanical cyclometer-type meters of 1 pulse per 7.2 watt/hrs.

  6. i'm asthonished by aBaldrich · · Score: 1

    Since when a meter needs to have wireless capabilities?

    --
    In soviet russia the government regulates the companies.
    1. Re:i'm asthonished by ascari · · Score: 5, Interesting

      There no absolute "need" but it greatly simplifies reading meters "on the fly", since the utility company personnel doesn't have to park, walk up to the house, get bitten by dogs etc. So in the end it's to save cost and presumably keep energy bills down.

      Of course, if there was a way gauge energy consumption truly remotely from a central location that would be better, and also negate the "need" for wireles...

      Hacking: expect lawsuits here in the US!

    2. Re:i'm asthonished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      To reduce meter readers' labour in walking from meter to meter. Though I can see the practical use for this feature (e.g. meter in an unidentified building past a path lined with prickly plants) problems which make wireless capabilities a necessity ought to be resolved as well (i.e. do not put meters in obscure locations in the first place).

    3. Re:i'm asthonished by TheLink · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Over here the meter readers use binoculars or a mini telescope. The meter has to be in a spot visible from outside though, so it doesn't work for all places.

      But it's "wireless" too ;).

      --
    4. Re:i'm asthonished by aBaldrich · · Score: 1

      If it can access the comapny's network and send in exploits and stuff; I bet it can also send the consumption numbers...

      --
      In soviet russia the government regulates the companies.
    5. Re:i'm asthonished by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank god the FCC hasn't heard light of this, otherwise we'd have to build 1600' antenna with matching cement vault holding 20K watt transmitters for reading the meter on "Dudly's house." You should be glad the signal is only Infra Red.
      You really don't want the HAARP array pointed at home to read your meter do ya?

    6. Re:i'm asthonished by misexistentialist · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Of course, if there was a way gauge energy consumption truly remotely from a central location that would be better, and also negate the "need" for wireless...

      If only there were wires connected to the meters, maybe a battery could be added to transmit readings over them

    7. Re:i'm asthonished by John+Hasler · · Score: 1

      There have been companies pushing systems that purport to remotely read meters via the distribution system for decades. Turns out to be remarkably hard to make it work. Transformers, capacitors, switches, wildly variable transmission-line impedance...

      Packet radio is simpler and more robust.

      --
      Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
    8. Re:i'm asthonished by TheMidget · · Score: 1

      If only there were wires connected to the meters, maybe a battery could be added to transmit readings over them

      If only they were connected to the mains, then you wouldn't even need batteries...

    9. Re:i'm asthonished by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      Another potential benefit is precise outage management allowing for much faster identification of outage patterns to allow for faster rectification.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
  7. Wow, blinkenlights in hughe! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With this you could use a whole country to display a message for aliens, or to entertain the astronauts on iss. :-)

  8. Re:What I want to know by mrjb · · Score: 1

    What I want to know is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere.

    So just use the electrons which are already around you then. Rub a balloon against your hair and harvest those electrons or something. Let me know when you manage to power your laptop from that. Or perhaps it's easier to just pay someone to deliver a steady electron stream to your house?

    --
    Visit http://ringbreak.dnd.utwente.nl/~mrjb/growingbettersoftware to download your free copy of the book
  9. Completely useless by Posting=!Working · · Score: 0

    I fail to see any improvement by introducing a computer into a electrical connection. They're still opt-in (at least here), but they really provide no benefit to the consumer, and a huge point of failure when something goes wrong. Even when they're working as designed, your air conditioner won't work as well when it's hottest. And now they have these huge security flaws that could let someone remotely turn off your electricity, change how much your bill is, and even mess with the electric grid. They really are a nightmare for the consumer.

    Unless I could find that software, then I'd get one in a second, build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof, and spin that thing backwards 24/7. I'd even build a perpetual motion machine that was secretly powered by electricity and claim it was producing it, just to mess with people.

    --
    This sentence no verb.
    1. Re:Completely useless by Minupla · · Score: 2, Informative

      Locally they brought time of day usage, so if I do my laundry at night, I pay less then half what I do if I run it in prime time. Arguably this is a benefit all around:

      * Consumers win with the option of lower pricing
      * The Power generators win because their loads are more balanced, and they need to build fewer power plants (locally we have 3 nukes that only run for 3 days of the year for peaks)
      * The environment wins as an offshot of point #2

      Min

      --
      On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    2. Re:Completely useless by zarzu · · Score: 1

      you might want to read up on smart meters and studies associated with them. they can help reduce your energy usage (together with near real time feedback provided by the meter) and change the usage distribution. i don't think i have to tell you why it's a good thing, for you and our whole energy/climate situation, to decrease your overall usage. flattening down the distribution away from the peaks we see today will help stabilizing and securing the grid (and reduce costs for the utility). obviously that doesn't excuse security problems in the system and they have to be addressed immediately.

      energy theft has been a rather big problem in some countries and was an easy thing to accomplish. go ask italy why enel introduced smart meters back in 2001, even though they still don't profit of any userfeedback or newer billing plans. the main goal of introducing smart meters from the point of utilities is exactly to reduce energy theft, you think they're introducing flaws on purpose because they want to loose money?

    3. Re:Completely useless by vlm · · Score: 1

      build some fake solar cells and windmills on the roof

      Building fake gadgets by hand one piece at a time, might be more expensive than buying a real one.

      Most of the money in panels is in the assembly labor, the glass, the backer, waterproofing, the mounting brackets... If you're going to all that trouble, may as well stick some cells in there. Even making convincing fake cells to encapsulate into the panel is going to be tough.

      On the other hand, an inverter is quite expensive and no one sees it...

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    4. Re:Completely useless by JaredOfEuropa · · Score: 1

      No benefit? These things allow the power company to balance the grid load and "pass the savings on to you", as they say.

      When I was in college, some 20 years ago, our home had a water boiler with a "smart" meter connected to it. The meter wasn't very smart and certainly not computerised, but it did allow the power company to switch on our boiler when they had some excess power capacity to get rid of. It was strictly opt-in (the boiler could be switched to manual), but if we used it we always had warm water at about 1/3rd of what it would have cost us at regular energy rates.

      --
      If construction was anything like programming, an incorrectly fitted lock would bring down the entire building...
    5. Re:Completely useless by flyingfsck · · Score: 1

      "spin it backwards 24/7".

      So, uhmmm, why are you complaining?

      --
      Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    6. Re:Completely useless by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      You are close as 20% of power plants are only used 10 days a year, however I can assure you that nukes aren't being used as you describe. Nuclear power plants are base load generating plants and will always run along with hydro plants. Most peaking plants are natural gas fired as they can be turned off and on easily. Nuclear plants take better than a day just to get up to full power as do coal plants.

  10. Re:What I want to know by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Funny

    is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere.

    Electricity is free, it's the packaging and delivery that costs money. Just like water that comes out of the faucet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the getting it to you part that is expensive. Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor.

    Feel free to use all the free electricity (or water) that you can grab and take home. Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.

  11. Why aren't these things read-only? by Evro · · Score: 1

    I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely? That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.

    --
    rooooar
    1. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Minupla · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Remote disconnect, and firmware upgrades - the latter being a messy one. Someone did a talk at Blackhat/Defcon last summer where they rooted a meter and installed a custom firmware that would spread worms to all other meters and give the blackhat total control over the network through remote firmware upgrades.

      The firmware upgrades are a double edged sword. Meters need them in case someone finds a vulnerability (which can exist even in supposedly read only devices), but if they're not locked down enough, poof.

      Min

      --
      On the whole, I find that I prefer Slashdot posts to twitter ones because I don't get limited to 140 chars before
    2. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Simple, they want to be able to turn off your line, if you don't pay.

    3. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Linuxmonger · · Score: 1

      Remote disconnect is a bad idea and shouldn't be there in the first place, the power company won't do a remote connect, they require a human be present.
      Given that, the only thing the meter needs to do is transmit two things; the current read and some sort of serial number for ID - it can send that as morse code, there is no need for encryption.

    4. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by sourcerror · · Score: 2, Informative

      Authentication is still needed, otherwise some funny guys can pump up your bills.

    5. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Misinformed poster is misinformed. There are a few reasons why you want the remote disconnect (and yes, this is actually done).
      1)You're late on your bill so they just disconnect you from the office. Completely automated, no human needed.
      2)prepaid metering. You just pay for $100 of electricity, after which point you get shut off until you "recharge" your electric.

    6. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Sollord · · Score: 1

      It has little to do with turning on or off the primary circuit to a house but a lot of homes int eh US have interrupter circuits on there central air units which they pay a lower rate on cause it lets the power company shut it down during high demand to reduce the chances of a brown out or something

    7. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by feepness · · Score: 1

      Neither of those is good enough reason for the security risk given the danger of disconnects to paying customers during a heat/cold wave.

    8. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well then put a signature on there, should be easy enough.

    9. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I think the idea is for the utility to be able to talk to your meter, to set peak and off-peak rates, adjust when peak and off-peak times are and to be able to do it in real time. This would be much preferable to brown-out and rolling black-outs we get in response to grid emergencies today. Eventually your appliances would be able to query the meter and respond in a reasonable manner. For example I might decide when at normal peak to have the AC set for 74, high peak 78 and emergency to shutoff completely. In an emergency I might have the electric range oven shut off if the freezer needs to turn on and the computer go into hibernate after 5 minutes of inactivity. Being able to do stuff like this could mean millions in saving for both the utilities and consumer each year but also reduces the intolerance for insecurities to the system.
      Some have propose having electric cars and hybrids being able to negotiate with the electric utilities on whether to charge or not and to even be able to sell back electricity at a profit.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    10. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      How about my getting a reduced rate at my message parlor and strip-club so the can cut my power to keep it going to the hospital's operating room or the homes of elderly who are temperature intollerant?

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    11. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Actually, they DON'T need remote firmware upgradability, they need LOCAL firmware upgrades and a decent QA on the firmware. By making it remote, they raise the consequences of any security flaw by orders of magnitude.

      It may seem strange in this day and age, but at one time we used to be very careful with firmware. It would be designed conservatively and then receive thorough QA. Then it would be burned into a write once PROM or even masked and run off as a purpose made ROM. And it worked! A firmware upgrade required replacing components and in some cases, a soldering iron.

      I don't think we need to go that far to solve the problem, but requiring a local physical connection to update the firmware is a good way to keep a worm from spreading through the system like wildfire.

    12. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by feepness · · Score: 1

      Good idea. Though I think it's better done with a specifically internet connected individual appliance rather than cutting electricity to a site entirely.

    13. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Fully agreed. It may not sound like a big deal to some, but there are people who really need to plug in dialysis machines or oxygen concentrators at home. During heat waves, a power failure actually can result in people dieing from the heat.

    14. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm posting as a coward, because I happen to work for one of the three companies that has hired this firm. Read only devices aren't really practical. Utilities need these to have a useful life measured in decades not years. There is no way a utility can afford to send someone out to literally millions of locations to do upgrades.

    15. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by budgenator · · Score: 1

      I was thinking that if the home's appliances could talk to the meter, say over the homes power-lines, like the x10 controllers, themselves to get electric-grid condition updates, they could be programmed to operate in various degrees of power-saving modes or even have your plug-in hybrid go into a sell-back mode.

      --
      Apocalypse Cancelled, Sorry, No Ticket Refunds
    16. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I can see the benefit in making meters network-enabled just to prevent having to send someone to read the meter physically, but why would you want to be able to control them remotely? That doesn't seem like it's worth the risk. Make the thing read-only, with some standard way of collecting the data - using SNMP or something.

      I don't think they can control them remotely. A mechanical switch that can interrupt 200 Amps at 240 Volts is too big to fit in a standard meter housing, and I believe a similarly rated solid-state switch would be just as unwieldy. Time-of-day control systems that I'm familiar with require additional switching systems to be installed behind the meter. Time-of-day metering, of course, allows use at any time. It just costs less at some times (OK, more at other times)

    17. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Actually, they CAN. They do right now. Every single month, I see a guy walking the neighborhood in his Georgia Power vest reading the meters. Surely, sending someone around every few years is affordable since they avoid sending him around every month.

      I'm not saying the firmware shouldn't be upgradable, just that it should require physical presence, as in plug in a programming lead to enable the write line on the flash. Done well, it should require just a little bit longer each than it does to read them in person now. Unless the program is run by a bunch of managers who can't decide what they want and stick with it, they shouldn't need to do that more than once every 5 to 10 years.

      What they NEED to ask themselves is can they afford it when someone remotely re-flashes them so they report between 1 and 10% (randomly selected) less than actual usage and silently drop remote flash update requests.

      Or, far worse, can they afford it when they all start rapid cycling power (assuring many billion in damages) and stop responding to any remote commands at all?

      It's not as if this is merely a theoretical problem, remote hacks updating the firmware has been demonstrated on test units.

    18. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      It can also be used to remote de-energise (and subsequently re-energise) a location duing a load shedding event. The ability to do so selectively allows them to leave life support customers turned on, and the ability to bring them on in small batches reduces the chance of the network failing to come back online gracefully.

      BTW the other common reason poeple have their power turned off is when there is a change of resident and the property is vacant for a period of time. This will no longer require them to send someone out to remove/replace the primary fuse.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    19. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You do realize that one of the reasons they are installing these meters is to get rid of the meter readers. Those people will no longer exist a month after these are installed. I also have to tell you meter readers are very efficient. Removing the meter to do a firmware upgrade is something that would take much more time than reading a meter. It also cuts power to the customers' home. The local ports are generally only accessible when the meter is removed.

    20. Re:Why aren't these things read-only? by sjames · · Score: 1

      Who said anything about removing the meter? Since we're talking about a design change, presumably the port would be placed where it could be accessed locally without cutting power or removing the meter.

      I know the meter readers will be gone, I'm just pointing out that if they can afford it every single month now, they can afford it every few years later.

      It doesn't take a genius to figure this out, it just takes a willingness to engage the brain, and a recognition that perfect security doesn't exist.

  12. Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 5, Informative

    I've read through both PDFs, and they really go into a lot of detail on the experimental methodology. The main thing they seem to be concerned about (and the only vulnerability they detail) are extracting the encryption keys from the meter firmware ("some" meters) and reverse-engineering the command protocol. While this could be a threat, being able to turn off/manipulate individual home meters isn't going to have any far-ranging effects beyond that. It also, obviously, requires a lot of reverse-engineering skill. I'd be more concerned with someone packaging this into a bluebox-style solution for manipulating your own meter, giving you free power? Earlier in the methodology report they talk about IR ports and similar being unsecured due to the perceived unlikelihood of attacking them, but they don't detail anything about that in the presentation PDF. That would be easier to exploit, though, so they might be keeping a lid on the more critical vulns?

    --
    Emotions! In your brain!
    1. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by feepness · · Score: 1

      ...being able to turn off/manipulate individual home meters isn't going to have any far-ranging effects beyond that.

      It isn't until they turn off everyone's meters including those of the elderly, hospitals, military installations, and CTU.

    2. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It seems to me that the authors of the report are likely trying to raise concern about the security of this sort of infrastructure in order to drum up business for their security testing organization. I didn't see much in the way of specific exposures identified, every thing mentioned was theoretical.

      I don't doubt that there are security weaknesses in AMI infrastructure, but speculating about it is hardly news.

    3. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by bbernard · · Score: 1

      One of the beauties of finding a vulnerability and doing the reverse engineering is that, once it's been done once, you can create tools to take advantage of it. (Exhibit A: Metasploit) So the skill required to determine the vulnerabilities is quite high, while the skill to use them later is quite low.

      Beyond ease of exploitation, let's think about the possible uses. The goal of smart meters is two fold: providing both you and the utility real-time info about your electrical use. The second goal is to be able to control and adjust your use based on this info. This will incorporate the ability to shut down your AC for periods of time, as well as appliances like your refrigerator, washer, and dryer. (Seriously, this is the "end goal" of these things)

      Having that data available is a problem. As a person with malicious intent, don't you think I can rather easily determine when you're home and when you're away based on your electrical usage? How about making assumptions about the juicy items you have in your home to rip off based on your electrical usage? (more engery used probably means more cool stuff to take, right?)

      Having the ability to now affect your electrical usage is a problem too, right? If I can shut down your power remotely, can't I at least piss you off? Worst case, couldn't I possibly harm someone in your household? If I can manipulate the meter to claim that you're using more energy than you really are, could I cause you financial hardship?

      So I think the ramifications here are pretty significant.

      --
      ----- Connection reset by beer
    4. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      You seem to have mistaken the methodology description for the report; the report is basically the slides in the second PDF. The methodology report is obviously written after the research phase but before testing. And there's not really much of anything in there that could be taken as FUD or unprofessional behavior, in my opinion... keeping in mind that I've never worked professionally in the field.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    5. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      All critical systems have emergency backup generators, and I doubt that major installations requiring bulk power use the same systems for supplying power as homes; the power company probably doesn't want or need the ability to cut power to places like that. Intuitively, it would be like comparing one of those ISP-provided DSL modems/routers to a Cisco backbone router.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    6. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Yeah, I considered that. But who in hell would go to such lengths for harassment? I've researched the methodologies of thieves a bit, and it seems like the basic philosophy is "quick, quiet 'n brutal", even in premeditated home invasions. They don't pick the lock, they drill it open or break a window. And the kind of thieves that would do that don't stick to petty home invasion.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    7. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Also, they where hired by the companies themselves to conduct the testing. As a professional, you release only what the client wants/allows you to release, or you're both breaching contract and burning your chances at ever working in the field again, especially with such a high-profile client. Isn't that obvious?

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    8. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by feepness · · Score: 1

      All critical systems have emergency backup generators

      Then why do we hear every year of people dieing in heat waves in various places around the world.

    9. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      I don't see how you make that connection? All cases of death from heat stroke I've heard about have been outside of hospitals, usually involving the very old or infants dying in isolation, and from Wikipedia it seems like none of the treatment methods but (in severe cases) hemodialysis require electricity. Not to say that things wouldn't go south quickly if all the hospitals in a region lost power and the supply routes of diesel where cut, of course.

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    10. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by feepness · · Score: 1

      I'm suggesting having the average homeowner's power subject to remote third-party shutoff is unacceptable from a life-threatening point-of-view. While hospitals have backups, households generally don't, even where it may be life-threatening.

      Think of the old people! Won't someone please think of the old people?!

    11. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by jeffstar · · Score: 1

      where are these PDFs?

    12. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by Securityemo · · Score: 1

      Eh... linked directly from the summary. :P

      --
      Emotions! In your brain!
    13. Re:Very meticulous methodology report... by d3ac0n · · Score: 1

      I would further suggest that having the average homeowner's power subject to remote third-party shutoff is unacceptable from a customer-service point of view AND a security point of view.

      Seriously, who the hell wants power service that can be just randomly shut off any old time OUTSIDE of the times one might expect it? (storms and other natural disasters)

      Frankly, if communities don't want to deal with brown outs, instead of wasting money on "smart" technology, they should either band together and create a community power company, or maybe ALLOW A POWER COMPANY TO BUILD A PLANT.

      Damn Eco-Hippies and Yuppies get NIMBY laws passed banning Nuke Power (and most other kinds of power too) and we all end up in the dark with no AC or heat like the fucking third world. And now the stupid "smart" meters are easily hackable. What a fucking JOKE.

      I'm just glad I live in WNY near the second largest natural power supply in the USA, Niagara Falls. At least I know THAT isn't going to shut down anytime soon.

      --
      Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
  13. Re:What I want to know by K.+S.+Kyosuke · · Score: 1

    Is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere.

    You're not paying for the electrons, you're paying for the non-conservative fields propelling them around.

    --
    Ezekiel 23:20
  14. Smart meter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    So would that be 39.37 smart inches?

  15. hackers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Anyone remember the end of "hackers" (the movie) ? They where showing text on a apartment building by controlling which lights go on and off...
    Guess it is possible now.

    1. Re:hackers? by Yvan256 · · Score: 1

      If somebody starts screwing around with the lights to play Tetris on my apartment building, I'll install red lights just to fuck with his game.

  16. Here... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    My city-run utility company inadvertently drove itself into a political clusterf**k with smart meters. A large bunch of the smart meters were installed in January, then we had an extremely cold February that caused very high bills for some people, and the bills were blamed on the smart meters.

  17. Re:What I want to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    is why electricity costs money. It is just electrons, which are everywhere. If there weren't electrons, we would all be living on a neutron star like Pluto where everything is a sick off-white color and people talk really slowly becuse they are strtched into string beans and they don't have any electrical energies in their metabalisims. But somehow we are supposed to pay for this? Somebody is evil and somebody is Italian here.

    What I want to know is where can I get some of the drugs you're on.

  18. This is Not News.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Vulnerabilities were identified in the smart meters last year, see http://earth2tech.com/2009/07/31/smart-meter-worm-could-spread-like-a-virus/

    The vendors for the vulnerable meters have since patched the buffer overflow used to propagate this worm, but they don't have a way to patch the meters already installed; the power companies aren't exactly storming Ma and Pa Kettles around the grid, replacing their meters. It is a safe bet that there are other overflows, lurking in the dusty corners -- hardware vendors still believe that obscurity is all the protection they need, and the government does not know how to force the issue without seizing control of private enterprise.

    As for the grid being regulated? Hah. The CIPS regulations can be condensed down to "Okay, tell us you have a plan. And, from here on, adhere to that plan. We trust you to know what a good plan is, because we sure as hell don't know."

  19. why? by DaveGod · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm confused, why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off? That doesn't have anything to do with "help deliver electricity more efficiently and to measure power consumption in real time". Surely the entire software and circuity surrounding those features should be able to fail completely with the core system (supply of electricity) completely unaffected and oblivious? I'm tempted to assume someone has other, less marketable objectives for the smart meters such as being able to cheaply disconnect people who aren't paying the bill, and therefore the root of the problem is those inherently risky objectives.

    1. Re:why? by enilnomi · · Score: 1

      Rolling a truck for short-term jobs like one-day service for a home inspection, or cutting service to a non-pay, or de-socketing/re-socketing a meter for service repair work is very inefficient. Hard to imagine any exec who wouldn't want to cut the expense for gas, vehicle, work hours, and risk. (It's one thing to say, "cheaply disconnecting people who arent' paying their bills...is...inherently risky objectives." Now go deal with those folks -- by definition you're losing money on them, and the field reps can be faced with threats, vandalism, bricks, knives, guns.... Be a good time to reassess "risk" ;-)

      --
      education is no substitute for intelligence
    2. Re:why? by Animats · · Score: 1

      why is it physically possible for anyone to remotely turn power on and off?

      To make customers pay their bill.

      (Remember Mr. Burns doing this on the Simpsons? Now it's real. Excellent!)

    3. Re:why? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Remote Disable is obviously a useful feature for Edison & Co. - I am more puzzled as to:

      "..the vulnerabilities open the door for attackers to jack up strangers' power bills.."

      - like, who the fuck turns their meter on and off to control device power usage - bit extreme, no? In my world, most users have fridges/freezers, things that are usually best left on, if you did want to kill the mains, you do so via trip fuse - love to see how that can be hacked. The only way you can increase a bill by hack would be if the rate was set at the meter - and anyone who has that "feature" deserves to be hacked.

      If you dont have it running, it cannot use juice - I fail to see any circumstances whatsoever here where you can possibly *increase* someones electricity bill - normal people do not turn their meter on when they wake up, nor should they be able to.

      A disconnect hack is another matter altogether, Warm & Sour Milk Time ;-) - how that does anything other than saving you cash tho, I do not know.

    4. Re:why? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      For the same (lame) reason many cable companies have begged (and been granted) wavers for broadcast station encryption... elimination of a truck roll. They can shut off service with the click of a mouse instead of sending a person out to physically disconnect lines. And conversely, to enable service with a single click.

      The power measurement parts of the meter can indeed fail without effecting power supply. I'm not sure how they handle the "on/off" part; most homes are fed with a rather high amperage making the use of a traditional relay unwise.

  20. Re:What I want to know by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    Which begs the question, why are they not gettin up off their ass's and building more power generation plants as opposed to whining and crying which eventually leads to these stupid hair brained ideas in the first place.

    Save money by cycling your AC indeed. The MONEY *IS* the incentive, not the SAVING.

    The problem we have is our leaders have sold us out, instead of pre-planning ahead, and taking actions to prevent destruction, they scam the system, their lives revolve around re-election finance, the ONLY time they take action is when it's forced because something breaks (because they had NO PLAN AT ALL) and we have another disaster which has to be fixed with another fucking OVER budget debt.

    Then they get out there and say they didn't know. They KNOW, they are ENCOURAGING this crap.

  21. Re:What I want to know by feepness · · Score: 1

    Yes, yes, I know it's an inaccurate oversimplification ... just think of it as a metaphor.

    Can you rephrase that in the form of a car analogy?

  22. Not what they're used to considering by russotto · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The traditional problems utilities have had to deal with are of physical intrusion, either by customers or by neighbors, looking to bypass the meter, modify the readings, or steal electricity. They solve this (or at least reduce it to a manageable level) mostly with intrusion detection -- basically, seals so they know the meter has been tampered with. In this model, the only loss is money and so preventing it at high cost doesn't make sense; detecting and stopping it reasonably quickly is more important.

    With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough. Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols. It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.

    1. Re:Not what they're used to considering by sjames · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If it can be done fully remotely, it might be done en-mass to destabilize the grid. Generators do NOT react well to suddenly having their load disconnected.

    2. Re:Not what they're used to considering by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are correct. The best analogy for this is a bicycle in top gear being pedaled up a hill as fast as possible. Now picture the chain breaking. That's what happens when the load goes away, except it's on a much larger scale.

  23. Re:Speedometer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So would that be 39.37 speedo inches?

  24. Re:What I want to know by __aasqbs9791 · · Score: 1

    I think it might be a severe head injury rather than drugs in this case. Not as much fun.

  25. And IBM and other LOVE it by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    They are COUNTING on idiots that will depend on them. This is the IBM that ships their manufacturing to China and their software to India. Of course, they know that they have LOADS of security issues. BUT, like Windows, people will have to buy new ones to stay ahead of the crackers.

  26. Re:pedo meter by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So would that be 39.37 pedo inches?

  27. we're safe by Krau+Ming · · Score: 0

    if hackers cut the power off, then how will they continue to hack???

  28. Re:What I want to know by hipp5 · · Score: 1

    why are they not gettin up off their ass's and building more power generation plants

    Because power demand increase as a curve and power supply increases in steps. Let's say power supply is currently 10,000 units. Next year the demand is expected to go to 10,500 units. A new coal power plant supplies 5,000 units at $1.5 billion dollars (approximate cost of a new plant). A power utility can spend $1.5 BILLION and build a new plant that's going to run at a fraction of its capacity for the next many years, or they can spend a few million dollars and trim demand to fit within their current infrastructure. If you're the power company which do you choose?: the $1.5 billion dollars that will be underutilized for the next ten years, or the few million dollars that ensures your system is running at peak capacity. Money IS the incentive. And the best way to make that in the energy world is to ensure that your current system is maximized in terms of its use.

  29. More FUD and shoddy security analysis by tark.dom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Great, first it was IOActive frothing non-stop about smart meters, now we have Inguardians turning the froth up to 11. This whole smart grid security issue never addresses the probability of an attacker actually being able to carry out a serious attack in real life. The PDF talks about theoretical attacks. It describes possible weaknesses. It does not assign any probability or likelihood to those attacks. As such, this is faulty and misleading security work. Its the kind of FUD "security gurus" resort to when they want to scare people into buying their services. Notice that the PDF makes sure to advise users to buy services like pentesting and code review - which of course an Inguardians sales representative can sell you. Any decent security analysis MUST include consideration of probability. Risk (the most basic measure of security) is comprised of both impact and probability. Sure, breaking into a smart meter could be a catastrophic thing, thus a very high "impact" rating. However, if the probability of doing that in the wild is enormously low. Something like 0.000000001%. Then the risk of this actually happening is therefore very low. Until one of these “researchers” shows the real risks involved here, and not a bunch of theoretical and conceptual data, I remain unconvinced that there are serious problems with smart meters.

    1. Re:More FUD and shoddy security analysis by jeff4747 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You developed Assassin's Creed 2's DRM system, didn't you? [/snark]

      You VASTLY underestimate the probability. Since the prize is so big, if it can be hacked, it will.

  30. Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay fo by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Now I can use my severs to war dial and not pay for the power that will be a nice way to match my free phone bill that I used to call all the numbers in sunny ville ca.

  31. I Smell A Rat by anorlunda · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I was an engineering consultant for 40 years. I'm well familiar with the politics and ethics of engineering studies. Something is fishy here.

    The AP says that Wright's firm was hired by three utilities. The web material suggests that it was actually ucaiug.org (an association of both vendors and utilities) Presumably, they financed the security study to expose vulnerabilities so that they could fix them. They did it openly and allowed the report to be published. That's laudable and responsible behavior. It is the opposite of denial and secrecy.

    Normally, Wright and his team write the report and the vendors and utilities fix the problems. However, Wright is going pubic in a big way. He, with cooperation from the media, is mongering fear and suggesting that the vendors and utilities don't care about security. He's acting in a way that brings maximum bad publicity to his financial sponsors. That is extraordinary behavior for a consultant. If it was I that hired him, I would feel betrayed.

    I really can't tell if he's doing it for shameless and unethical purposes of self promotion, or whether there was a breakdown in relations between the consultant and the clients. Somewhere there is an enormous untold back story.

    1. Re:I Smell A Rat by shentino · · Score: 2, Funny

      However, Wright is going pubic in a big way.

      ...do I even want to know?

    2. Re:I Smell A Rat by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They've recently put out a public statement that might clear up some of this. Looks to me like somebody doesn't understand how to talk to the press.

      http://www.inguardians.com/pubs/20100401_AP_Article.pdf

  32. Re:What I want to know by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 1

    Sure ...

    What I just described as the engine of a Yugo is, in reality, probably closer to the complexity of a Ferrari's engine ... just think of it as taking up a metaphorical parking spot for my analogy.

  33. Re:What I want to know by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 1

    Cars are free, it's just the making and selling of them that costs you money.

    --
    "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
  34. Re:What I want to know by Shark · · Score: 1

    Heck, you can take mine too, if you can carry it.

    Dear WrongSizeGlass,

    Can we move one of our data-centres next to your house?

    Sincerely,
    Eric Schmidt

    --
    Mind the frickin' laser...
  35. Re:What I want to know-updated slashdotter analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Think of the kind of girls here that Slashdotters are familiar with:
    Just like girl that comes out of the closet, or comes in a plastic bottle, it's the getting it to you part that is expensive.

    You know the kind of girls you have to inflate first or the came out of weird Japanese vending machines.... if you were thinking of something else when you read the above your clearly have a dirty mind! ;-)

  36. What about water meters? by gsarnold · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?

    My city put 'em in last year and this dude comes out to the house to install it and I'm like, "...so this let you drive past the house and pick up the meter reading without coming to the side of the house, right?" And the dude is like, "No. This radios your water usage directly to the central office every twelve hours."

    Every twelve hours.

    I know slashdot makes you paranoid, but this bothers me. I simply cannot imagine how it could be useful to monitoring this frequently when they still bill my usage monthly. Plus, any dude with access to the database can hack together an SQL query to find out which houses have a total water usage under a gallon over the past three days and know who's not home.

    1. Re:What about water meters? by IonOtter · · Score: 0

      Plus, any dude with access to the database can hack together an SQL query to find out which houses have a total water usage under a gallon over the past three days and know who's not home.

      If they've got the brains and resources to know how to do this, then chances are VERY good that they're also smart enough to know that robbery is a bad idea that doesn't pay very well. Someone like that is much more likely to try and rootkit someone's wireless router whether they're home or not, then steal their bank details.

      And if you're worried about a government agency trying to find out if you're home or not so they can install bugs, then you're either in bigger trouble than you know, or you should be wearing a tin-foil hat.

      --
      [End Of Line]
    2. Re:What about water meters? by osgeek · · Score: 1

      Water and gas meter technologies lag behind electric meters because of the simple fact that water and gas meters aren't hooked up to power... so they require long-life batteries to be functional. Since they're on battery, lots of frills are eliminated, like the ability to receive transmissions.

      Most deployed water and gas meters these days are transmit only. There are some coming to market that will listen too, but the corresponding limited functionality will make hacking into them much harder.

    3. Re:What about water meters? by rwiggers · · Score: 1

      I don't know in your locality, but here you can charge back to the water company if you have an invisible leakage. Therefore, they have all the needed incentive to warn you as soon as possible that the consumption is abnormal.

    4. Re:What about water meters? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      Funny. Both my gas and water have been wirelessly metered for many years, yet power wasn't until a few years ago. Granted, they're passive devices incapable of shutting off service. But rumor has it, neither can my power meter.

    5. Re:What about water meters? by Cramer · · Score: 1

      It's in their best interest to detect leaks as quickly as possible. On both sides of the meter. Plus, if it hasn't checked in on time, they know something is wrong and can schedule someone to check it.

      And around here, the idiots use industrial water meters for residential service. The minimum detectable usage is 1 CCF (100 cubic feet) or ~770gal. My water usage is almost undetectable by such a meter.

  37. Mike Davis / IOactive research by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Mike Davis with ioactive has done some in depth research, see http://www.ioactive.com/services/smart-grid-research.html

    Check out the videos of worm propogation, really cool stuff. He actually wrote the attack vector and worm for his blackhat preso, I think you can get slides off that site.

    There is also a webcast, if you are actually interested I would check it out.

  38. Too much functionality by Animats · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble. The ability to do remote firmware upgrades is an example. The ability of meters to communicate with each other is another.

    The "smart grid" has way too much centralized control in it. All that's really needed is remote meter reading, plus some broadcast signals to indicate how scarce power is at the moment. The customer should have read-only access to their meter from their side of the meter. High-current appliances should be able to query the meter to find out if it's OK to draw heavy power right now. The power company should have no data path to appliances.

    Incidentally, some "smart meters" support pre-paid service, where customers have to pay in advance and are turned off automatically when their pre-payment runs out. There's also wattage-limited service, where the power turns off if a maximum load is exceeded. This can be used for collection purposes; if you get behind on your electric bill, your consumption is limited. There's a whole new range of ways for screwing poor people going in. It's like "check cashing" stores.

  39. How do I know if I am using a smart meter or not? by antdude · · Score: 1

    This place is from the 70s, so I assume it is a not a smart type?

    --
    Ant(Dude) @ Quality Foraged Links (AQFL.net) & The Ant Farm (antfarm.ma.cx / antfarm.home.dhs.org).
  40. similar in Italy by Luke_22 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    we had a similar problem in Italy. basically the new electricity meters were infrared-accessibile. password protected, of course. no need to hack anything trough, just use '0000', '1234' or '3635' ("enel as written with a cellphone, it's the company name). ta-da! full access. so what did we do? nothing. but we're in italy after all...

    --
    "I was gratified to be able to answer promptly, and I did. I said I didn't know." -- Mark Twain
  41. with apologies to Peter Graves by davek · · Score: 2, Funny

    we have a new vector, victor!

    --
    6th Street Radio @ddombrowsky
  42. My simple interview question by rkinch · · Score: 1
    I ask how you would solve Jumble puzzles from the newspaper, given a vocabulary text file. Exhaustive search is not the answer, but given that the glut of CPU power and storage has fostered brute-force approaches to everything, this is surprisingly a quite common proposal.

    The solution is quite obviously a hash lookup, but you would be surprised how few "programmers" come up with that.

    1. Re:My simple interview question by rkinch · · Score: 1

      Oops, wrong thread, sorry.

  43. Re:What I want to know by Shakrai · · Score: 1

    Which begs the question, why are they not gettin up off their ass's and building more power generation plants as opposed to whining and crying which eventually leads to these stupid hair brained ideas in the first place.

    Because of the NIMBY/BANANA Nazis have teamed up with those concerned about climate change to filibuster any attempts at building new power plants?

    --
    I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
    We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
  44. Turn someones power off. No way! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You can't turn off a houses power remotely, these smart meters don't have interrupting devices in them.

    The only interrupting devices between my power and my neighbors power are my main breaker and their main breaker.

    When the utility turns off someones power they send someone to physically pull the meter.

    You could build a meter with interrupting capability, but it would cost $$ so utilities aren't going to do it.

    Turning someones meter off (power stays on, it is just not metered) could be possible, but if I could hack a meter, I would be in the business of selling discounts. I think the utilities might not like this sort of thing, so I am fairly sure they are not going to sit back and let someone eat their lunch. This whole story is BS. There are plenty of concerns with cyber security of power networks, residential meters are not really a big deal.

    1. Re:Turn someones power off. No way! by jeffblevins · · Score: 1

      This is not necessarily true. A lot of homes will not have remote disconnect, but it's absolutely available on meters today. Especially smart meters.

  45. Zigbee by jeffblevins · · Score: 1

    A lot of these smart meters utilize 802.15.4 (2.4Ghz) radios running a Zigbee stack. 802.15.4 is DSSS like 802.11. The same vulnerabilities exist in both topologies. There are two pieces to this system. The utility area network and the home area network. They are generally required to be separate bands. For instance, A Zigbee HAN and a cellular backhaul. The architecture of the 'system' would limit a hacker to individual homes. Replay attacks I understand are particularly successful but they don't allow you to propagate back to the utility to shut down entire neighborhoods. It's just as dangerous as having a wifi router in your home.

  46. I have to ask by kilodelta · · Score: 1

    If one could jack up the power bill, one could also ratchet it down too.

  47. A lot of misinformation here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I am an engineer that designs smart grid transponders, and there is a lot of misinformation.

    The present:
    1.) Utilities and Meter Manufacturers are extremely paranoid about people altering their electrical bill. If someone can hack the system, then the Utility will lose a Massive amount of money. As such, the codes to change meter tables are kept very secret, and even meter transponder manufacturers aren't given the code.
    - If you can alter the meter map, your product will not be qualified to work with a meter.
    - If your hardware modifies the electrical usage in any way, (decreased accuracy or modifying the table reads), your product will not be inserted into the meter
    - If someone does hack a system, the amount of money required to resolve the issue is tremendous. You have upset customers, government regulations, and meter technicians that cost a lot of money.
    - A utility will spend YEARS researching AMR/AMI systems before installing them. This is not a fly-by-night industry. You MUST have a solid reputation for reliable hardware in order to stay alive.
    - You Don't need additional government regulation. There is enough financial incentive to keep us scared shitless of creating a flawed product.

    2.) The new front IR port can be used to access meter information, but you must have a very specific security code to read anything, let alone write. Even then, it varies between utilities. Even the transponder manufacturers don't have access to the write codes.

    3.) Older front IR ports just sent a pulse every time there was a count, allowing some third-party transponders access to the count.

    4.) The two-way systems have integrated disconnects, which allows the power to be connected/disconnected with a simple phone call. You just move into your house? Call the utility and you can have power in less than 5 minutes. You don't pay your bill? You get disconnected. You pay your bill? Reconnected instantly.

    5.) The future:
    The Smart Grid stimulus is causing havoc. People are assuming fast connections that can carry the internet (Most AMI systems stay below 10Kbps). Sure, we could provide 1Mbps to each house, but it would cause everyone's electrical bill to go up $50/month. As such, AMI systems are low data rate and low cost to give the smallest customer impact possible.

    Utilities want an hourly read to make sure their system is properly responding to the load demands. The "Green" people want meter information every 5 minutes, and so Utilities are requesting 5 minute reads. It is not the Government, it is this "green" movement that wants 5 minute reads. (I could write forever about the Green Smart Grid, but I will leave that for another day)

    The trouble with "smart meters" and the "smart grid" is that it's too easy to put in excess functionality that can cause trouble.

    First, the "Smart Grid" is not defined. You can't buy a "Smart Grid" compatible piece of hardware. It does not exist. You cannot create trouble because you don't have access to the protocol or interface hardware.

    Anyone found any similar useful hacks with them newfangled radio water meters?

    Those are transmit only. They have a battery inside and transmit to a collector unit every 12 hours.

    With meters which do more than metering, that's just not good enough. Significant effort must be made to prevent malicious people from surreptitiously turning power off, otherwise assholes will do it just for lols. It's not like ripping a meter off the wall, which will have the same effect but carries high likelyhood of getting caught.

    This is a secondary issue. The real problem is if someone figures out how to hack the system to connect their own meter. AMI systems are VERY concerned about this.

    but there really should be a minimum security standard for infrastructure items like any city's power grid (or voting machines, or traffic systems, o

  48. I work for a utility by SoupGuru · · Score: 1

    Sorry, late to the party.

    I work for an electric cooperative. We have automated meter reading. Each night, each meter sends in the reading for the day. We're thinking about going hourly. We're actually part of a pilot project for demand response. As someone brought up in a previous post, these meters works wonders for outage management. We can now "ping" meters. A member calls in an outage, we ping the feeder he's off of and within minutes we pinpoint the piece of equipment that has failed.

    I'm actually excited about a lot of this new technology because I can see where it's going and it's not all that big brotherish. I think the largest benefit to everyone involved is the increased ability to monitor consumption. As it is now, you use a bunch of power and only find out what you're getting billed for at the end of the month. Some people get surprised. Wouldn't it be neat to have an in-home display (maybe your thermostat) that shows your current (heh) usage by the hour? You can now identify which times of day you're using the most juice, things like that. And no surprises when you get the bill.

    Demand response is going to be huge. As we run out of places to build dams of power plants we need to do better with what we have. The silliest thing is some unreal proportion of generation sits there idle until 5 pm when everyone gets home and turns the heat up and their TV on. That demand spike requires us to generate huge amounts of energy for just an hour or two and then the generators sit there are spin at idle until the next peak. So if you can make that peak not so sharp or not so high, everyone wins when it comes to the bottom lines. The utility is otherwise forced to buy peak power at a premium and forced to pass that cost on.

    So now we're piloting a project where people's electric heat and water heater are hooked up via the "smart" grid and during a peak event, for 45 minutes, we set back their thermostat 3 degrees and shut their water heater off. So, for that barely noticeable impact on a person's life, everyone gets savings. It's also a ton better than rolling blackouts or brownouts.

    I honestly think the project as it is is a pretty hard sell but I envision hourly pricing data sent down the wire to a consumer's smart appliances. You want to do a load of laundry and when you push the start button on your drier is says "Currently $0.16/kwh. If you wait 2 hrs, power will be $0.12. Start now or wait?" Leave it in the hands of the consumers. Give them the correct up to date knowledge to make good choices.

    But you can't get from here to there without the baby steps. You need to start collecting a ton of data on people's usage. You need to know where and when your peaks are. You need to be able to predict them. You need to be able to interact with the consumer. Gone are the days of your dumb meter, and thank God for that. I realize some of the growing pains aren't that great but I think it will pay off in the long run.

    --
    What doesn't kill you only delays the inevitable