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Microsoft Lost Search War By Ignoring the Long Tail

Art3x writes "When developing search engine technology, Microsoft focused on returning good results for popular queries but ignored the minor ones. 'It turned out the long tail was much more important,' said Bing's Yusuf Mehdi. 'One-third of queries that show up on Bing, it's the first time we've ever seen that query.' Yet the long tail is what makes most of Google's money. Microsoft is so far behind now that they won't crush Google, but they hope to live side by side, with Bing specializing in transactions like plane tickets, said Bing Director Stefan Weitz."

26 of 267 comments (clear)

  1. Same old by Mystery00 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Company releases an inferior product, much later to the game than competition, makes excuses for failure, water still wet.

    --
    "we've got trenchcoats and bad attitudes" - John Constantine, HellBlazer
    1. Re:Same old by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 5, Funny

      I don't know how they could have not figured this out ahead of time. All they needed to do was search for how to build a great search engine and they would have gotten about 280,000,000 results.

    2. Re:Same old by nomadic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      makes excuses for failure

      "We messed up" isn't really an excuse.

    3. Re:Same old by Runaway1956 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Personally, I won't touch bing. It generates money for Microsoft, who is willing to give me almost nothing for free. Their free products are tied to using their overly bloated over priced products.

      Google has given me a browser, they gave me a superior search engine years ahead of any competition, they offer me a free operating system, AND they host a boatload of code for free stuff for which I've never paid a dime.

      More, Google promotes the advancement of computer science, without trying to take possession of every line of code written to work with their offerings. None of that "embrace, extend, extinguish" nonsense.

      And, if all the rest doesn't impress you, Google has decided that they WILL NOT censor the web for 1/4 of the world's population, while Microsoft is quite happy to do so.

      If anyone is going to make money off of my searches, it will be Google, unless and until some other company steps up to offer me tons of free stuff, and to "Not be evil".

      I guess you could summarize my attitude as "Fuck Microsoft!"

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    4. Re:Same old by TheSpoom · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Microsoft is always late to the party. GUI, LANs, the internet, and now internet search.

      They figure they'll make up for it with superior marketing and product placement within their own software; don't underestimate the power that these things can have.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    5. Re:Same old by jcr · · Score: 5, Informative

      Google has decided that they WILL NOT censor the web for 1/4 of the world's population,

      Well, to be precise, Google went along with the censorship until they caught the Red Dynasty fucking with their servers, and decided that they'd had enough.

      -jcr

      --
      The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    6. Re:Same old by crazycheetah · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But what has MS Research given us compared to some of the things Google has gotten us? Overall, I'm very biased. I never liked Windows. I always thought it was counter-intuitive. Linux, on the other hand, just seems very logical and easy, to me. And Google has therefor given me more than I think some Windows users see.

      Nonetheless, now my phone runs Google, too. My browser is now Google--it was Firefox long before that; I think the last time I used IE as my main browser was IE6, for a very short time before I switched over to Linux. My search engine is Google--because Google just has too many things that I haven't even bothered to see if Bing has, which I'm very used to on Google. My e-mail is Google. Many things that I use on a day to day basis have many contributions from Google('s Summer of Code and such).

      There's five--the fifth being more than one, really--reasons for me to think Google has done more for me than MS. Most of those are just negatives from MS. I don't hate MS. But I don't like (most of) their work as much as I like Google's work and several others' work, and I don't really like their tactics and style of business. And why would I want to support a company putting all of this money into research and not showing me as much as several others--many of whom do it for free.

    7. Re:Same old by Runaway1956 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Speaking of fanboys - maybe you missed the fact that MS OWNS every line of code they produce, and they OWN everything they research.

      On the other hand, Google gives away most of the stuff they write research. Google makes it possible to take their neatest stuff, modify it, and release it again.

      Granted, there are SOME things that Google won't open source. They have a few bread-and-butter things that they don't want to give away to their competition, which is understandable. But, for the advancement of computer science, almost everything they do is just thrown out there, and made available for anyone who has a "better idea".

      Try taking some MS code, and improving on it. IF MS approves of it, they will put their name on it, making it their own, then they will either use it, or drown it in the sea of obscurity surrounding Redmond.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    8. Re:Same old by cduffy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Microsoft gives free search, browser, and email just like google

      If it's tied to a paid product (Windows), it ain't free.

    9. Re:Same old by Runaway1956 · · Score: 4, Informative

      An interested person might start here: http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/

      This is interesting reading: http://socghop.appspot.com/

      Chrome and/or Chromium browser: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Chrome

      Whatever your interest is in open source, try googling it. Not everything in the labs is open source, but some is - check that out: http://www.googlelabs.com/

      Want code to play with? You'll get more from Google than you'll EVER get from Microsoft. Maybe I exxagerated with the word "most" - but they have given away a lot of stuff, and they help with a lot more. One of the things you'll see when you click the links above is Gnome. They contribute, but, of course, Gnome doesn't belong to Google - that capital "g" is just coincidental.

      So, go look around.

      --
      "Windows is like the faint smell of piss in a subway: it's there, and there's nothing you can do about it." - Charlie Br
    10. Re:Same old by icebraining · · Score: 3, Insightful

      IE is just as free as Chrome.

      No, IE is just a product you pay for when you buy the Windows bundle. Then you get free updates, like with other paid software.

      Chrome is the property of a monopoly trying to squash the only other search engine in use. What's the difference? It's a competitive market, and Google is doing the exact same thing to Bing that Microsoft is trying to do to Chrome. It's competition, and its healthiest when you have three or more competitors. The search market really only has two, and one of those is far more dominant than the other.

      Except IE won because it came bundled with the OS, in clear abuse of their monopoly, while Google Search "won" for itself.

  2. Well, duh... by QuietLagoon · · Score: 4, Insightful
    said Bing's Yusuf Mehdi. 'One-third of queries that show up on Bing, it's the first time we've ever seen that query.'

    .

    Search engines are all about people looking to find stuff. A good portion of what people look for are probably new things that are happening now.

    So, Microsoft goes off and designs a brand new "bet the ranch" search engine, without even knowing how its customers use such a service. Yes, that sounds like Microsoft.

    1. Re:Well, duh... by bunratty · · Score: 4, Funny

      I sincerely apologize. I'm a PC and Bing was my idea. Sorry!

      --
      What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    2. Re:Well, duh... by Greg+Hullender · · Score: 5, Informative

      I worked on MSN Search (later "Live Search") so I can answer a few of these for you: 1) There was very little collaboration with the MSN teams. MSN is generally despised at Microsoft, and to get people to come to Search we had to reassure them that it wasn't "really" part of MSN. For their part, the MSN people seemed to try really hard to live up to their "it can't be done" reputation. For example, the MSN team controlled the UI, and even though a top customer complaint was that there wasn't enough space for users to type their queries, no force in the Universe was powerful enough to make the MSN guys widen it. (Their design rules required it be usable by people whose display was a TV set.) 2) Yeah, the MSN data was worthless. First, there wasn't that much of it; rather than saving the raw data, they had a process for computing digests of it, and that's all we could get. Also, that digest process was full of bugs. For example, for years it told us the top queries were "google," "internet explorer" and "yahoo"; it was obvious this was a bug, but our management couldn't get the MSN team to do anything about it. 3) As Yusuf suggests in his article, the cumuative Search and Click data is NOT what you need to produce a good search engine. One of the most frustrating things about working on Search at Microsoft was Management's obsession with head queries. They had several articles of faith that didn't accord with reality, but this was one of the worst. Good news for Microsoft if they've finally figured this out. Of course, almost all the people responsible for the original mess are long gone now. 4) The Google-worship was nauseating. We wasted all kinds of effort trying to duplicate features that obviously didn't work even for Google (news being an obvious example) whereas new features that might have been helpful consistently got killed with "Google doesn't do that." In many cases, this argument was used for technologies where no one had any reasonable clue what Google actually did. --Greg

    3. Re:Well, duh... by Sir_Lewk · · Score: 4, Funny

      for years it told us the top queries were "google," "internet explorer" and "yahoo"; it was obvious this was a bug

      Maybe I'm being dense but... why? Those seem like very reasonable top searches for a search engine that something like Windows uses by default.

      --
      "linux is just DOS with a UNIX like syntax" -- Galactic Dominator (944134)
  3. It helps to be honest, as well by timholman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    'It turned out the long tail was much more important,' said Bing's Yusuf Mehdi.

    Someone should tell Medhi that it also helps when you don't game the search results to fit your corporate agenda.

    From time to time, I try out the following query on Bing: "Why is Windows so expensive?"

    The day that the first result returned is NOT a site about Macs being expensive is the day I'll start to take Bing seriously. Until then, I'm sticking with Google, which is at least honest enough to properly index anti-Google queries.

  4. Lost? by nurb432 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    As long as there are search engines and choices, the war isn't over. A war of unskilled attrition, ( like Microsoft plays ) can take a long time to end.

    --
    ---- Booth was a patriot ----
  5. Sure by HangingChad · · Score: 5, Funny

    Microsoft is so far behind now that they won't crush Google, but they hope to live side by side...

    The same way the Zune lives side by side with the iPod.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  6. So they say by gilesjuk · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I would say they lost by:

    1. Being too late. Search engines have been around for many years. You can't easily launch a search engine now without a massively improved user experience over what is already available.

    2. Not being trusted, I don't want to use Microsoft's search engine as it may subvert the results to promote their wares.

    3. Stupid name. Every time I hear "Bing" I think of Ned Ryserson from the film Groundhog Day.

    4. OTT interface, I don't need a big background when I'm looking for stuff.

  7. MapReduce Thinking? by segedunum · · Score: 4, Interesting
    I was just thinking about the role MapReduce plays in all of this search malarky, and then I came across a telling Joel Spolsky post from a few years ago:

    http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/ThePerilsofJavaSchools.html

    "The very fact that Google invented MapReduce, and Microsoft didn't, says something about why Microsoft is still playing catch up trying to get basic search features to work, while Google has moved on to the next problem: building Skynet^H^H^H^H^H^H the world's largest massively parallel supercomputer. I don't think Microsoft completely understands just how far behind they are on that wave."

    Perhaps Microsoft just cannot think like that? To be clear, Microsoft saying that maybe Google and Bing can perhaps exist side-by-side is a clear admission of defeat. Microsoft never says that, so you know the situation is bad. I just can't understand why they got a bee in their bonnet and wanted to chase Google in the way that they have. It was clearly a knee-jerk thing and they hadn't clearly thought about it. The only major difference they did was change the name from the stale MSN Search name to something they thought was cooler - Bing. Nothing else changed.

    To not take into account that people search for many random and obscure things put together that won't have been recorded before (language is a very broad thing and what people search for is also time-based i.e. NOW), and not to have some sort of logic to aid with that, is utterly unforgiveable. What the hell are Microsoft Research doing?

  8. They need to do something more radically different by astrashe · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think Bing will ever out-Google Google. So it's strange that they don't try to identify problems with Google and address them. They seem to start out with the assumption that Google is perfect, so the best path forward is to do everything just like Google, only more so.

    The big problem with Google is privacy. Why not try to make a search engine that doesn't track what you do? I'd pay a subscription for such a thing. Maybe most people wouldn't, but I would. Search is such a big market that 5% of it is still huge. Maybe 5% of the people in the US would pay for private searching.

    MS has had a kind of bullying culture for a long time, and they've declared war on open source, so we've viewed them as the bad guys for a long time. But windows is a heck of a lot more open than the iPad, and their business model isn't based on data mining. In a lot of ways, they've been left behind by many of the most toxic trends in the industry. They should listen to some of the things that we linux folks have been saying, and try to fit them into their pitch when they can. Talk about the value of controlling your own data, of privacy, of letting anyone who wants to write a program and distribute it, of being able to install your software on whatever hardware you want. That's not snake oil -- it's good stuff.

    The strange thing is that they've missed those toxic trends not because they value the good alternatives, but because they're big and sluggish and not very agile. They've just been left behind. And all they want is to catch up so they can turn the same screws on us that Apple and Google turn. It doesn't occur to them to make the kinds of arguments I'm proposing here.

  9. Re:They need to do something more radically differ by Fex303 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why not try to make a search engine that doesn't track what you do? I'd pay a subscription for such a thing.

    How would they keep track of who has subscribed if they're not tracking people?

  10. Bing sucks by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Informative

    I have my own website which is absolutely authoritative on its rather narrow topic. This website is easily findable by its unique keyword that identifies the topic (similar to searching for "slashdot", you won't find any cooking websites or shopping, only tech stuff). I'm at #5 on Google and my number one competitor is at #6. Neither of us shows up on a Bing.com search, I quit looking after page 10 of results. The results just have a bunch of websites that I've never heard of before. Even more galling, Bing.com tries to play games with my results because I'm overseas. I search for "mykeyword" and select "Only English". Bing.com helpfully comes back with "Results are included for XXX XXX (foreign word that is the translation of my keyword)". Two of the sites on the first page say "Parse error: syntax error" as their preview. Yes, my site is in Bing's index and regularly submits XML sitemaps.

    In conclusion, Bing sucks if it can't put my site in the first 10 search results. Hell, it should at least be in the top 100. I don't game Google, either, other than some basic SEO that any responsible business owner should do.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    1. Re:Bing sucks by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Informative

      Novice != moron, but go ahead and say that if that's what makes you feel good. To return the favor, I couldn't care less about your professional SEO bullshit. Frankly, I steer clear of fraudsters like you.

      I'm telling you that my site is absolutely the #1 most informative site about my keyword on the internet, and if you're searching for my rather obscure keyword you'd be very glad indeed to find that there is a comprehensive resource on the subject. I'm not "supporting" one search site over the other, I'm saying one site returns relevant results and the other not only fails, but fails hard. The #3 result is a site that I've never heard of, that hasn't been updated since 2006. #1 is good if boring, but the rest on the front page are not terribly relevant.

      But hey, I must be totally wrong to survey the situation from my viewpoint and report empirically on slashdot. I must be an "absolute moron" because I'm not an "SEO professional". You're right, I should have spent my keystrokes showing my contempt for others, I suppose that belongs at slashdot more than my anecdote.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  11. results seem skewed towards shopping by number6x · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Performance is comparable to Google, but I get the impression that Bing's results are more skewed for people looking to purchase things on line. Try some basic 'how to' queries (how to caulk a window, how to make pancakes, etc) and see if you get more product related hits returned near the top with Bing than with Google.

    This isn't a criticism, just an observation. It could be a smart thing for MS. It will help them squeeze more advertising dollars out of smaller market share.

    It seems to me that Bing may be a better tool for shopping than Google is, but Google is a better tool for searching than Bing is.

    Bing's problem then becomes that there are several better tools for shopping and comparing prices than Bing offers.

  12. No, it's not the "long tail" by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

    Remember Cuil? They were originally talking about the "long tail"; they wanted to have a bigger index than Google. Cuil is mostly ex-Google people, and they thought they could re-do Google at lower cost.

    Didn't help Cuil.

    There's ongoing effort in search engine development. Unless you pay close attention, though, it's invisible. A few years ago, around 2007, Yahoo introduced about fifty specialized search sub-engines. These understood weather, stocks, sports, celebrities, movies, and similar popular search topics. They focused on areas that have a strong structure, and need a lookup engine that understands that structure. For about six months, Yahoo was way ahead of Google on such searches.

    Didn't help Yahoo. Google implemented something similar and caught up. Now everybody does that.

    It's not clear that the Twitter search is a win. Bing announced they were going to do Twitter and Facebook searches, and a day later, Google announced they'd do that too. Google implemented Twitter search, and apparently Bing didn't. Twitter search just seems to clutter up Google results.

    In the last year, Google has become much more aggressive about interpreting queries. Google tries hard to infer from the query words what the user is really looking for. This tends to work for popular queries (since it's based on statistics from other queries) and doesn't work too well for unusual queries. For hard queries, you need to use explicit operators ('+' and '"') with Google more than you did a year ago.

    The big search engines are still doing badly at de-rating sites which are basically link farms. When you're searching for a product, and you get a hit that's just some site with ad links to other sites, that's a fail. Search for auto parts, and you're likely to get "parts.com", "thepartsbin.com" and "who-sells-it.com", which are just "portals". They don't even return pages that are actually about the part in question. ("thepartsbin.com" pages are all essentially the same, except for keywords inserted for SEO purposes.) Search engines need to look at the business behind the web site. If a business has a million commercial-looking web pages, and a total business volume of a few million dollars, they're probably bogus. That's a part of the "long tail" you don't need to visit.