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Dirty Duty On the Front Lines of IT

snydeq writes "Jobs may be scarce in today's economy, but there's no shortage of nasty IT work — as the third annual installment of InfoWorld's Dirty IT Jobs series demonstrates. From the payroll cop to the coolant jockey to the network sherpa who has to squeeze into rodent-filled spaces and deal with penny-pinching clients, these seven jobs provide further proof that dirty duty abounds on the front lines of IT."

166 comments

  1. FTA: by eln · · Score: 5, Funny

    The hardest part of Andrew Bonar's job is convincing the world he's not a spammer. It's not easy. Just having "email deliverability consultant" on his business cards is enough to start the Viagra jokes.

    Somehow I don't think Andrew Bonar's job title is the reason for the Viagra jokes.

    1. Re:FTA: by ElectricTurtle · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Adam West thinks that is funny.

      --
      I support the Slashcott and will not be reading or commenting from 2/10/14 to 2/17/14. Beta is steaming pile of dog shit
    2. Re:FTA: by theshowmecanuck · · Score: 4, Funny

      The hardest part of Andrew Bonar's job is convincing the world he's not a spammer. It's not easy. Just having "email deliverability consultant" on his business cards is enough to start the Viagra jokes.

      The hardest ... Bonar ... is enough to start the Viagra jokes.

      --
      -- I ignore anonymous replies to my comments and postings.
  2. I fix code written by offshore Indian developers. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I fix the horribly shitty code written by offshore Indian "developers".

    The crap and stupidity I encounter from them daily is far worse than dealing with rodents, or cramped spaces, or spending months on the high seas.

  3. Dirty is Relative by Petersko · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If anybody thinks their IT job is dirty, they are sorely in need of a reality check.

    I have relatives that run pig farms.

    1. Re:Dirty is Relative by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      I have relatives that run pig farms.

      Given the grooming habits of most NOC monkeys a server farm isn't that far off.

    2. Re:Dirty is Relative by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      "And when you got your six pieces, you gotta get rid of them, because it's no good leaving it in the deep freeze for your mum to discover, now is it? Then I hear the best thing to do is feed them to pigs. You got to starve the pigs for a few days, then the sight of a chopped-up body will look like curry to a pisshead. You gotta shave the heads of your victims, and pull the teeth out for the sake of the piggies' digestion. You could do this afterwards, of course, but you don't want to go sievin' through pig shit, now do you? They will go through bone like butter. You need at least sixteen pigs to finish the job in one sitting, so be wary of any man who keeps a pig farm. They will go through a body that weighs 200 pounds in about eight minutes. That means that a single pig can consume two pounds of uncooked flesh every minute. Hence the expression, "as greedy as a pig".

    3. Re:Dirty is Relative by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I am in IT because I grew up on a farm on the Great Plains.

      I farmed, ranched and knew folks with pig farms, all of that motivated me to get a job where I didn't have to smell those things or get covered in hydraulic fluid on a regular basis.

    4. Re:Dirty is Relative by mjwalshe · · Score: 2, Funny

      yes but you normaly (BOFH aside) dont have to slughter them and dress the carcass

    5. Re:Dirty is Relative by tibman · · Score: 1

      Might be easier than cleaning them

      --
      http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
    6. Re:Dirty is Relative by Chagatai · · Score: 1

      I had it worse as an IT guy for slaughterhouses. You can read about some of the, "fun," here.

      --
      --Chag
    7. Re:Dirty is Relative by corbettw · · Score: 1

      Then why did you choose IT?

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    8. Re:Dirty is Relative by bobaferret · · Score: 1

      You've obviously never installed cat5 in a coal mine.

    9. Re:Dirty is Relative by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      There was an opening that matched what I'd been doing for fun, applied, got the job and ta da, here I am.

    10. Re:Dirty is Relative by Deadstick · · Score: 1

      Hell, people whine about having to work in cubicles. Hard to have much sympathy when you've worked in a bullpen...

      rj

    11. Re:Dirty is Relative by corbettw · · Score: 1

      You completely missed the subtext: that IT exposes you to smells similar to those found on a pig farm.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
    12. Re:Dirty is Relative by operagost · · Score: 1

      Thanks for that, Captain Literal.

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
    13. Re:Dirty is Relative by pithed · · Score: 1

      If anybody thinks their IT job is dirty, they are sorely in need of a reality check.

      I work doing IT at the Tijuana River Estuary (on the border of mexico and the U.S.) and routinely need to wade through untreated sewage to service equipment.

    14. Re:Dirty is Relative by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Yep. One of my buddies became an engineer because that was a sure and fast route far away from working a ranch and mucking horse stalls in Montana.

    15. Re:Dirty is Relative by Wyatt+Earp · · Score: 1

      Thats been my experiance with engineers and IT people from the Great Plains.

      Either they are really good with machines and want to work on bigger ones, they are really good with math and want something else, or they sure as hell don't want to be covered in crap anymore.

      For me, it was using a pressure washer to clean farm equipment one morning at dawn when it was spitting snow and I was hungover from being dead drunk the night before. I got some dirt mixed with hydraulic leakage in my mouth and nose and that was it.

  4. Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've gone through my share of cluttered closets, dusty vents, underneath dirty desks, and cleaned the fluff off of old computers.

    However, nothing makes me feel dirtier than installing Windows Genuine Advantage, as part of the new computer deployment checklist.

    1. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by eln · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Interestingly, one of their so-called "dirty jobs" is a guy who narced on his company to the BSA for using single-user software licenses on networked computers. Sure, misusing software licenses is wrong, but some guy sicking the much-maligned BSA on his company is hardly an example of the poor downtrodden IT guy.

    2. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by sconeu · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I disagree. I did RTFA, and the guy tried to get the school district to do the right thing. They refused.

      And his second point, that it's damn near impossible to teach kids ethics when they know the district is cheating...

      I dislike the BSA as much as the next guy, but whenever I was the IT guy (and thank ha-Kadosh Baruch-hu, I'm not, right now), I always made sure that all our software was properly licensed.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    3. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by ZippyKitty · · Score: 1

      It wasn't just any company. It was the school system. I'm undecided as to whether that makes the actions better or worse

      --
      Time flies like an arrow Fruit flies like a banana
    4. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by barzok · · Score: 1

      Why call the BSA when you already know who the vendors are for the software that's not in compliance with the licenses?

    5. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Snitches get stitches.

    6. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by X0563511 · · Score: 1

      School system = government.

      Are you OK with the government being so hypocritical? "Hey, we'll enforce these copyright laws to the maximum extent... on YOU"

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    7. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by billcopc · · Score: 1

      Worse. They could have negotiated an educational discount, and given the sheer volume I'm sure they would have paid less than 1/4 of retail, or gotten site-wide licenses for even less. I am personally on the fence about piracy (see my other posts), but still this type of infringement seems inexcusable.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    8. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because the BSA offers a reward (dont they?)

    9. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by idontgno · · Score: 2, Informative
      1. Stormtrooper effect.
      2. Bounty. Potentially, lots of bounty.
      3. One-stop shopping. Who wants to dial up lots of different vendors when you only have to drop one dime?
      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    10. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by jafac · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Really?

      Because if my customer asks for it, as far as I'm concerned, I'm giving them what they paid for. All the headaches, tradeoffs, and everything else that goes with it. The worse Microsoft cripples the Windows ecosystem - the happier I am to push every line of crippleware out to their customers. There is enough literature out there, and people have dealt with Microsoft products' limitations long enough - even non-technical users should know better by now. I'm not responsible for their poor choices. I do that job to the ethical best of my ability. (If Windows is *not* up to the task, I'll give them my technical opinion. But I won't waste project time debating the issue or trying to redesign the system around an alternate OS - unless that's my specified task).

      The sooner my customers realize they're paying me to shoot them in the foot - the sooner they'll start paying me to load Ubuntu (or whatever) disks. But some people just seem to live in denial forever. Maybe human nature? Dunno.

      --

      These are my friends, See how they glisten. See this one shine, how he smiles in the light.
    11. Re:Dust Bunnies and Asbestos by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      The thing is - I don't work selling to customers. I am deploying to employees within the same company as me. So all the headaches, tradeoffs, and everything else that goes with it become MY headaches and tradeoffs and everything else that goes with it for me to deal with while they are trying to get work done.

      I am not responsible for poor choices, that is the job of the IT Manager, and the general consensus is that they'd rather have a corporation that is too big to fail backing their software than the OS Community.

  5. Lumping these guys with actual programmers by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1, Insightful

    It's amusing that these guys are sometimes lumped in with actual programmers under the terribly wide "IT" catchall. I'd liken it to calling garbagemen "sanitation engineers", but that's probably a bit mean.

    1. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      I take offense to programmers thinking they are "software engineers" when in fact many do not hold engineering degrees.

      I chuckle every time someone says they are an engineer. Really? You went to Hollywood Upstairs Programming School?

      And yes, I realize some OLDER person will get on this thread and say "I'm a train engineer - a real engineer - unlike these punks with engineering 'degrees'"

      Anyway, the moral of the story is, don't berate people's positions, making yourself seem better, when in fact there are many people more qualified than yourself.

    2. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by erkkituo · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well, they DO teach software engineers here at JAMK. That's right, programmers who actually hold engineering degrees.

      --
      Don't pursue an engineering degree. It'll only make all your elderly relatives think you can master any technology.
    3. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      And yes, I realize some OLDER person will get on this thread and say "I'm a train engineer - a real engineer - unlike these punks with engineering 'degrees'"

      Of course, engineers existed before train drivers; but that's another story...

      --
      I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
    4. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "IT" is, as you say, a very broad term, so there is nothing at all unusual or problematic about having Real Serious Software Engineers, PhDed computer scientists, and basic server screwdriver monkeys under that heading.

      Take the analogy of "Public health": Public health means MDs, and PhD epidemiologists, and biochemists and stuff; but it also means the sweaty guy with the pipe wrench who makes sure that your water comes up your water pipe, your sewage goes down your sewage pipe, and the two don't get confused on their way to your mouth. Same goes for the dubiously literate kid at McDonalds who checks the core temperature of the "beef" patty because the pictograms in the employee handbook told him to.

      Obviously, any screwdriver jockey who calls himself a "hardware engineer" just because he replaces dead hard drives when the SAN LEDs change color to tell him to needs a smacking. As does any ITT Tech Java monkey who calls himself a "software engineer". However, the idea that "IT" consists exclusively of upper-echelon engineering experts is transparently silly. A huge percentage of the labor involved in making a real-world IT system run basically has little or no relationship with hardware or software engineering at all.

    5. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Um a "real" engineer isnt some one with a a BS or BA you have to be a Ceng and charterd status requires work in the industry just like a Mech, Civil Or Electrical Engineer.

    6. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by syrinx · · Score: 2, Funny

      And yes, I realize some OLDER person will get on this thread and say "I'm a train engineer - a real engineer - unlike these punks with engineering 'degrees'"

      Of course, engineers existed before train drivers; but that's another story...

      Somehow I doubt ballista-building Romans are going to be posting on Slashdot, though.

      --
      Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur.
    7. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by thebagel · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Engineers work to develop economic and safe solutions to practical problems, by applying mathematics, scientific knowledge and ingenuity while considering technical constraints." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer Software engineers fit this definition just as well as any ME/CE/EE (I'm an EE, personally).

    8. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      but it also means the sweaty guy with the pipe wrench who makes sure that your water comes up your water pipe, your sewage goes down your sewage pipe, and the two don't get confused on their way to your mouth.

      Personally, I only drink water.

    9. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by sjames · · Score: 1

      And at one time a train engineer did a lot more than drive the train.

    10. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by h4rr4r · · Score: 1

      Some of them might be actual programmers as well.
      I am a system administrator, who sometimes does these sort of it dirty jobs and I do dev work in php, perl, C++ and Java.

    11. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by onkelonkel · · Score: 1

      "Software engineers fit this definition just as well as any ME/CE/EE "

      Arguably this may be true. Here's a question: - Does every person who writes code qualify as a software engineer?

      Here is a possible test: Civil engineers are personally responsible for errors in their work. If they design a structure and it falls down because of their errors, they are personally responsible. Do coders accept this level of responsibility for the bugs in their code? If so, maybe they are engineers.

      --
      None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
    12. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by element-o.p. · · Score: 1

      I take offense to programmers thinking they are "software engineers" when in fact many do not hold engineering degrees.

      I worked at a job where they changed my title from "sys admin" to "IP Engineer". I avoided that term like the plague, for the very reason you mention.

      --
      MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
    13. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by Shompol · · Score: 2, Informative

      Here is a possible test: Civil engineers are personally responsible for errors in their work. If they design a structure and it falls down because of their errors, they are personally responsible. Do coders accept this level of responsibility for the bugs in their code? If so, maybe they are engineers.

      Here is another spin: what if the structure falls down because of errors in the computer design software, which was used to design the structure, who will take the blame?
      Hint: it's the corporation, not the little guy. There are supposed to be reviews and tests, both in computer and civil engineering.

    14. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Only because of modern plumbing.

      The fact that "water" isn't just a polite synonym for "dilute sewage" is very much a modern innovation.

    15. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Looks like wikipedia needs updating then

      You Must become chartered to call yourself an "Engineer" just passing your BS isn't enough.

    16. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by thebagel · · Score: 1

      I'd argue that this situation is more a failing of the company that employs the software engineer than of the profession itself. In other words, it's not your fault that your employer doesn't hold you responsible. On a related note, in my view, this sense of personal accountability and responsibility should be held by anyone and everyone, regardless of position (and regardless of how your employer views the issue) - you shouldn't have to be a PE to take pride in your work. That's a matter of ethics and integrity.

      All that being said, don't misunderstand my original point - not all coders are software engineers, and therefore not all coders are engineers.

    17. Re:Lumping these guys with actual programmers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The fact that "water" isn't just a polite synonym for "dilute sewage" is very much a modern innovation.

      Have you seen the water quality reports for most urban areas?

  6. Post Some News Instead Of Drivel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Slow news day or have you reached the end of your news DO LOOP?

    Yours In Akademgorodok,
    Kilgore Trout

    1. Re:Post Some News Instead Of Drivel by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Different article. The one you linked is a followup to an article last year. This news story is following up on the follow up (I.e the third such article).

      Hell, the summary even made a note of it. Emphasis mine:

      as the third annual installment of InfoWorld's Dirty IT Jobs series demonstrates

      If you are going to attempt to call people out, at least don't be a fucking moron about it.

    2. Re:Post Some News Instead Of Drivel by billcopc · · Score: 1

      An AC calling another AC a moron (or perhaps the same AC).

      What is this, Digg ?

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
  7. You would think that he'd be an expert. by khasim · · Score: 2, Insightful

    With a name like that. But ...

    Bonar works with companies whose email isn't getting through to customers, thanks to overzealous spam filters. CEO and founder of EmailExpert, Bonar has to convince ISPs to let his clients' legitimate emails past their filters, while persuading his clients not to bend the rules.

    Dude, if your clients are going to "bend the rules" then they are spammers.

    Deal with it.

    1. Re:You would think that he'd be an expert. by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      I suspect that the deal is "As long as they keep signing the checks, I keep describing them as 'wanting to bend the rules' rather than 'worthless marketing scumweasels who will be first against the wall when the revolution comes'"...

    2. Re:You would think that he'd be an expert. by TheLink · · Score: 2, Informative

      They're only spammers once they've committed the act.

      There are tons of bosses who think that it's a good idea to send out emails about their product/services to thousands of people who never asked for them (hey their product is wonderful after all, etc etc).

      You can convince some of them that it's not a good idea, in which case they don't become spammers.

      And there really are overzealous spamfilters. I've seen people here who think it's a great idea to block off entire IP ranges (not just for their personal systems, but at a corporate level).

      --
  8. Maybe the two most wrong sentences ever written by AdmiralXyz · · Score: 5, Funny

    Techies often play a little fast and loose with the truth. But it's the marketing hag who catches hell for it.

    Can someone please call an ambulance? I think these sentences may have caused my head to explode.

    --
    Dislike the Electoral College? Lobby your state to join the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact.
    1. Re:Maybe the two most wrong sentences ever written by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The marketing bitch saying that is a professional liar. What did you think, that she would admit to being the one lying?

    2. Re:Maybe the two most wrong sentences ever written by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not a real emergency if you can post on slashdot.

    3. Re:Maybe the two most wrong sentences ever written by sjames · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Interestingly, as you read the write up, it turns out it's the managers lying their asses off that she has to cover for and actual geeks that let her know she was lied to. I guess the managers lied when they told her they were geeks too. That happens a lot when MBAs are allowed to manage geeks.

  9. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, is it cheaper to hire idiots to write most of the code and then hire someone smart later to fix it?

  10. This line in TFA says it all by Registered+Coward+v2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    "The geek personality is very different," says Bectel. "I've worked in a lot of different markets, and techies have much higher expectations for coverage than virtually any one else. It's because they're so passionate about what they do, and they expect everyone else to be equally passionate about it."

    The one line explanation of /.

    --
    I'm a consultant - I convert gibberish into cash-flow.
  11. Rudigger by Rudigger · · Score: 1

    Starting as a peon in I.T., I saw my share of giant spiders and rats in . Harrowing work of a cable runner. Good motivation to get that career moving, though!

    1. Re:Rudigger by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Back in the day it was fairly common in telephone exchanges (central office) to have cats on the payroll to keep down mice and such like.

    2. Re:Rudigger by Rudigger · · Score: 1

      It's amazing how utterly disgusting office workers can be. No wonder mice love those places.

    3. Re:Rudigger by smooth+wombat · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's amazing how utterly disgusting office workers can be.

      Absolutely. As one who has had the "pleasure" of moving/removing equipment, it is amazing at how disgusting some people are. I distinctly remember one case where I had to go to some machines and do a manual update. As I leaned over to put my fingers on the keys of a keyboard, I paused as I looked down and saw, as Tyr is my witness, that there was fungus or something growing from between the keys.

      If you saw the movie Apollo 13 as they were preparing to fire up the command module for reentry and Kevin Bacon paused before asking about what the effect of the condensation would be on the electronics, yeah, that was me too when I saw this keyboard.

      There are several people in the building where I work where I swear they eat their crackers directly over the keyboard. How they can possibly think that is hygienic or that the keyboard will function properly is beyond me.

      And let's not forget the people who have to stack twenty pounds of pictures, in frames, Beanie Babies (remember those?), lotion bottles and other goodies all over their desks.

      If a fire were to break out and clear out a few of these rooms, that would only be a good thing.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    4. Re:Rudigger by Rudigger · · Score: 1

      Not to mention finding "curlies" in the keyboard.

  12. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by WindowlessView · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > So, is it cheaper to hire idiots to write most of the code and then hire someone smart later to fix it?

    Doesn't the question answer itself? What's cheaper in the long run - install plumbing and wiring *while* the house is being built or afterwards?

    --
    Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
  13. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Nerdfest · · Score: 1

    No, it's generally not, although you will usually get a product of some sort quickly. It's best to think of it as 'disposable software', which I suppose os fine in a few rare situations.

  14. Questionable ethics by spmkk · · Score: 2

    "As a computer science teacher at an East Coast high school, Smith became concerned when the district bought single-user licenses of Adobe Creative Suite and Microsoft Office, then installed them on network servers where 5,000 users could access them.

    Smith says he approached his superiors and the district's IT department and explained why that was wrong, but to no avail. So one day he called the Business Software Alliance and reported them...a few months after he contacted the BSA, his employers purchased legal licenses for its software."



    With what money, you self-righteous scumbag? This is a SCHOOL, and they're making do with what they have. It's not a for-profit corporation that's making money at the expense of another corporation's loss.

    To be sure, the school isn't in the right. But sinking to an even lower level of wrong isn't the solution. There's the letter of the law, and then there's doing the right thing. Looks like someone missed that chapter in ethics class.

    1. Re:Questionable ethics by jedidiah · · Score: 4, Insightful

      If an educational institution can't afford monopolyware then PIRACY is not the answer. If they can't pay their own way helping perpetuate the Microsoft monopoly, then perhaps they should not help perpetuate that crap to begin with.

      A kid doesn't need to learn the Brand X version of a particular sort of software.

      That's just nonsense perpetrated by middle aged idiots that couldn't adapt to something new if their life literally depended on it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Questionable ethics by spmkk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A kid doesn't need to learn the Brand X version of a particular sort of software.

      That's just nonsense perpetrated by middle aged idiots that couldn't adapt to something new if their life literally depended on it.

      The trouble is, a kid DOES need to learn Brand X of a particular sort of software, because the people he'll be working for/with use it and if he doesn't know it, they'll hire someone who does. In a sense, his life does depend on it.

      For all the fervor of the FOSS hype, here in the real world people need to make a living, and they go to school to learn the skills they need to do that. Beg, borrow or steal if you must, but if you are a school, your ultimate responsibility is to teach the skills that enable your students to succeed in the framework of a sometimes-inconvenient reality.

    3. Re:Questionable ethics by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      Well your teaching kids its all right to break the law not quite shure that's a leason many parents would like taught to Jack and Lucinda.

      And MS and Apple do give very generous educational discounts

    4. Re:Questionable ethics by elfprince13 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      because "Hi, I took a semester of photoshop my freshman year of high school" will totally get you a job in the real world. Middle school and high school students just need basic tech literacy and first exposures. Going to college or trade school is what's going to land you a job, and that is where you need to learn Brand X of a particular sort of software. Yes, there are exceptions to that (myself included, a couple years back), but the sorts of low-paying, under-the-table, tech jobs a high school student is going to land generally afford them the right to use whatever tools they feel comfortable with; because whatever local business or charity they're working for doesn't know jack-all about tech anyway, and will listen to whatever their new PFY says like it's the gospel truth.

    5. Re:Questionable ethics by trapnest · · Score: 1

      perpetuate the Microsoft monopoly

      Anyone know where I can get a key for Microsoft CS5? Or really just MS Photoshop, that's all I ever use.

    6. Re:Questionable ethics by pluther · · Score: 1

      No, he did exactly the right thing.

      I wish more people would do that.

      If the school, or anybody else, for-profit or non-, can't afford to pay for the licenses they need then the answer is to find another alternative, not to engage in illegal copyright infringement.

      In this case, there are two possible solutions: They can ask Microsoft for donated licenses (which MS does all the time, by the way), or they can use a free alternative, such as OpenOffice. The latter is even better, really, as the open source can be used to demonstrate real-world programming examples. Even if a kid never programs professionally, it's still good for them to know that software is written and some idea of what it looks like and how it's accomplished will serve them well.

      --
      If the masses can keep you down, you're not the Ubermensch.
    7. Re:Questionable ethics by corsec67 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So, Word '97 is the same as Word 2007?

      XP is the same as Vista?

      How about instead of teaching how to use a single version of an OS or software suite, they teach kids how to use a word processor, and more general stuff about using a computer?

      --
      If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    8. Re:Questionable ethics by Imagix · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I strongly disagree. For starters, your third solution, "Steal", is not an acceptable solution in a school. Ever.

      Second, a kid does not need to learn Brand X of a particular sort of software. They need to learn concepts, not specific implementations. So they should learn what a word processor is good for. Whether it's MS Word, or OpenOffice, or iWork (or pick some other word processor). Irrelevant. Learn what a word processor does. (Repeat for presentation software, spreadsheet, etc) It will make them more versatile in the real world. Additionally, the second option in there is free, thus solves the original problem of "we can't afford the licesnes". I have no idea what they need Creative Suite for. That's an even bigger sledgehammer than MS Office for putting in finishing nails.

      Yet another advantage for OpenOffice, since it is free, the kid can easily take a copy home and use it for homework there too, and not inflict a large licensing cost on the family too.

    9. Re:Questionable ethics by Myopic · · Score: 1

      Eh, I dunno man. We're talking about kids here, not adults in a tech training program. If a kid uses Foxit instead of Acrobat, then the kid will still know what a PDF is. And, the kid will still know what Acrobat is -- it's the software whose authors won't let him use it, for whatever reason. Hardly any software is so complicated that it can't be learned quickly on the job. I got all the way through high school, four years of college, and five years of professional programming before I ever had to use Windows -- yes, that is the honest truth. And when I finally received a PC when I started a new job, I figured it out in a couple days, no sweat. The fact that my college CS program used Linux didn't slow me down very much.

      I guess I think you are being hyperbolic when you say his life depends on it. The truth underlying that statement is so tiny as to render the statement misleading.

    10. Re:Questionable ethics by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      With what money, you self-righteous scumbag

      With the money allocated to self-righteous scumbag administrators for their perks and travel. Most school systems have sufficient money to pay normal operating expenses and decent teacher salaries. But unnecessary central administration and non-teaching expenses are given far too much priority in budgets.

      Complaints lodged with the Auditor General created a report which stated "poor internal controls". This did not stop the non-teaching expenses; but did stop operating expenses, for items such as software licenses, from being diverted.
      posted AC for obvious reasons

    11. Re:Questionable ethics by operagost · · Score: 2, Insightful

      With what money, you self-righteous scumbag?

      The people's tax money.

      It's not a for-profit corporation that's making money at the expense of another corporation's loss.

      Not if it's a public school. In that case, it's a government organization run at the consent of the people using our tax dollars and is not above the law.

      Smith says he approached his superiors and the district's IT department and explained why that was wrong, but to no avail.

      So what was he supposed to do next? Pay for the software out of his pocket?

      --

      Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  15. Trademarks by ThrowAwaySociety · · Score: 4, Informative

    ...you're asked to throw a 'TM' after a product name, only to find out later it's not really trademarked

    Slapping that TM after a product name does trademark it, unless some direct competitor has already trademarked that same name first.

    Only the (R) (for Registered trademark) has to be...well, registered.

    1. Re:Trademarks by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      I thought everybody learned that after the reoccuring TM joke in the Monkey Island series.

    2. Re:Trademarks by DriedClexler · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Yep, so remember, folks: if you make lingerie, you can't call it "very sexy" because Victoria's Secret has trademarked it (no, really), and if you make baked goods, you can't say they're "fresh from scratch" because Schlotzky's has trademarked it (no, really).

      I don't know how well these trademark claims have stood up, but know for a fact I felt brain cells dying away when I saw these companies actually trying to claim IP rights in these terms for their product lines. Not just the outrageousness of trying to own these terms, but the fact that their marketing drones couldn't think of something more original!

      --
      Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  16. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    It depends on the accounting method you use.

    If you use the one typically used by non-technical MBA managers when making technical decisions, it is cheaper. But that's only because they're concerned with quarterly results, and most software projects take at least a year.

    Furthermore, these guys typically don't last more than a couple of years at any given place. Between when a project starts and when it's finally delivered (usually one or two years late, and very broken) we have a three to five year gap. So while they're still with the company, they can talk about all these great "initiatives" they've started, and how this software developed in India will be cheap and boost productivity. But by the time the shit hits the fan, the management who pushed for the software in the first place are long gone, pulling the same stunt at some new employer.

    Usually, I end up throwing out what the Indians have shit out, and redo it all myself. It takes me longer to sort though their crap and try to fix their work than it takes me just to redo it all from scratch.

    So considering the cost over the entire development lifetime of the project, the client ends up paying a large amount of money to the offshore Indian team (say, $X), and then they end up paying me some amount of fix it. I usually do it for far less than the Indian team, because unlike them, I know what I'm doing and I don't fuck around.

    Just paying for good work in the first place would save these companies huge amounts of money. But the MBAs just can't figure this out (or don't want to).

  17. Payroll cop fubar by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If, as the article relates, Jennifer Hoffman had to call the data center and walk them through the process of manually restarting the one, single, solitary payroll server, a few items come to mind:

    1) The people doing the upgrades without considering their impact should be shot on sight. Anyone who has worked more than a week in a network environment knows, or should know, that when you are considering an upgrade to anything, you have to find out who else is impacted by the upgrade.

    2) Relying on said single, solitary server for payroll is just begging for disaster. For a highly critical task such as payroll, having one point of failure is beyond stupid. One deserves what one gets if the server dies.

    3) The person who was fired but was still able to log time so they got paid was smart, the people who administered user accounts and security were not. Basic rule when someone is fired/let go/whatever is you disable their account. Immediately. Whomever in IT let this little gem get by should also be shot.

    4) Having only one person who knew how to run the payroll software was, like issue 2 above, beyond stupid. Does no one use the bus principle any more? For the uninitiated, if someone gets run over by a bus, can they be replaced by someone else with minimal downtime? Are their tasks documented? What about quirky procedures that need to be done?

    These are just basic questions I had when I read that job. My other question was, what company did she work for so I can introduce myself to them as a "Risk Mitigation Specialist"?

    --
    We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    1. Re:Payroll cop fubar by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

      I know its quite sweet that they think a major telecoms carier is one that has 12k FTE's plus 3K contractors when i worked for BT our divison (SE) had 70k employees.

    2. Re:Payroll cop fubar by QuantumRiff · · Score: 1

      Wow.. 50% of your solutions involve shooting people.. Have you considered counselling for your anger management? Or could I perhaps interest you in a career at the local library?

      --

      What are we going to do tonight Brain?
    3. Re:Payroll cop fubar by Archangel+Michael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Bus Principal is only employed after it actually happens. We had this very same discussion years ago, then one day, one of the techs woke up dead.

      Took the rest of the team better part of a month to get things all torn down and put back together because nobody had the keys to anything.

      It will not happen again. Once was enough

      --
      Agent K: A *person* is smart. People are dumb, stupid, panicky animals, and you know it.
    4. Re:Payroll cop fubar by The+Archon+V2.0 · · Score: 3, Funny

      2) Relying on said single, solitary server for payroll is just begging for disaster. For a highly critical task such as payroll, having one point of failure is beyond stupid. One deserves what one gets if the server dies.

      Do you work with me? Sounds like half of the conversation we have here on a regular basis.

      I work in the shop of a computer store and at least three times a year someone comes in with an off-the-shelf $400 PC that they need fixed ZOMG YESTERDAY because it's their payroll server and 10-200 people need their paychecks ASAP. (For about half, it's the end of the week. For the other half, it's end of the DAY. And it's 4:45 when they bring the PC in and they close at 5:00.) Then when we tell them that it won't be ready in 15 minutes they get angry. And if their hard drive died, it gets better. The first thing they say when we tell them that their information is, short of a data recovery company's best efforts, gone forever is ALWAYS "But that's the only copy!"

      Seriously? Single point of failure, no redundancy, no backup, and any sort of failure means 200 people who want their paychecks being mad at YOU? Might as well just have sent everyone a gift-wrapped torch or pitchfork for Christmas.

    5. Re:Payroll cop fubar by paulej72 · · Score: 1

      If he woke up dead, why did you need to replace him. I head zombies work cheap.

    6. Re:Payroll cop fubar by thebagel · · Score: 1

      then one day, one of the techs woke up dead.

      I've seen a certain amount of bloodlust in a pissed-off sysadmin before, but this is the first time I've heard of sysadmins out for BRAAIINNNSS.

    7. Re:Payroll cop fubar by Kozz · · Score: 1

      Bus Principal is only employed after it actually happens. We had this very same discussion years ago, then one day, one of the techs woke up dead.

      Tell me, does this result in zombie processes?

      --
      I only post comments when someone on the internet is wrong.
    8. Re:Payroll cop fubar by billcopc · · Score: 1

      My answer to all your points:

      What you say is true, but the reality is that small companies usually can't justify the overhead (lack of dedicated resources), and the larger companies have much bigger cracks for good intentions to fall into.

      #1: sometimes (most of the time) when you ask the questions like "does anything else depend on X", you get no answer, or worse: an incorrect answer. You go ahead, pull the plug, then get yelled at for not knowing the information people withheld from you.

      #2: Payroll is not a highly critical task, unless your company is in the business of payroll outsourcing such as ADP. For everyone else, it's one of the many administrative overheads. If payroll screws up, you can always print a cheque.

      #3: What usually happens is the person's primary account is disabled immediately, but any unrelated (or shared) accounts remain active. SSH keys, server passwords, boss' password that was known to his assistant... the bottom line is that exploiting any such holes for monetary gain is fraud, and should be treated as such. Don't blame your I.T. staff because an ex-employee is retaliating for HR's tactless firing, or for hiring a skeevy person in the first place.

      #4: If I get run over by a bus, well I'm the only "real" Unix guy here, so my boss will have to get up to speed real quick, or find another Linux geek. If my boss gets run over by a bus, the company's pretty much done. The remaining guys are perhaps less "keystoney", but in the end it boils down to not having the resources to justify redundancy, for our small company.

      --
      -Billco, Fnarg.com
    9. Re:Payroll cop fubar by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 1

      50% of your solutions involve shooting people.

      Yeah! What a pussy! Real management could push that into the high 90s.

    10. Re:Payroll cop fubar by idontgno · · Score: 1

      Well, bear in mind... not shooting everyone may be a budgetary mitigation. Ammunition can be expensive, and there are so many cost-effective ways to deal with offenders.

      Some good reference material

      --
      Welcome to the Panopticon. Used to be a prison, now it's your home.
    11. Re:Payroll cop fubar by Macgrrl · · Score: 1

      Where I work we refer to it as "If X wins the lottery" rather than "If X got hit by a bus", it seems less mean spirited.

      I think it also accurately reflects the speed with which anyone in this program would leave given the finacial freedom to do so.

      --
      Sara
      Designer, Gamer, Macgrrl in an XP World
    12. Re:Payroll cop fubar by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not everyone has infinite resources, some small businesses it will also be an Exchange/AD/File/Print server, although you'd think a company with 15000 employees would be able to invest in risk management, but there is a balance. Also, if its just collecting T&A data from clocks you might find the software isn't designed to run on multiple servers.

  18. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by StuartHankins · · Score: 1

    I doubt this person is in the position to change that policy.

  19. Dirty Jobs... right. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When you work as IT staff at a steel company, you know what that really is.

    Out of many horrible locations, the one that stands out it trying to track back network cable over a pot of molten steel. As it's being melted. Fortunately, there was someone else there that knew more about where it was supposed to be going...

    (note -"it" in this case being the steel, not the cable. In this case.)

    Then, when we get into the pulpit, the users were complaining about the screen being "wavy". We're standing ~10 feet away from an electric arc furnace, think there might be a little EMF there?

    One of my co-workers had a good story about getting into a wiring closet that was a rat's nest - literally, someone had gone in and cleared out a nest of dead rats after some poison was put down.

    Walking around, over, and under moving steel plates is an education all it's own. Crawling under desks and above ceiling tiles is nothing after that...

  20. Theft vs Infringement by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "You wouldn't go into Best Buy, put a copy of Windows in your pocket and walk out the door. Only in this case they're taking that copy of Windows and installing it on 100 computers, so they're 100 times worse."

    -Jennifer Blank, BSA director of legal affairs

    1. Re:Theft vs Infringement by trapnest · · Score: 2, Funny

      Well if the original DVD was actually stolen, that makes installing it on 100 computers about 97.3 times worse.

  21. Mod parent up. by khasim · · Score: 1

    Remember, it isn't always about the techs or the technology.

    Marketing operates on their own logic/ideology.

    Management operates on a logic/ideology completely different from marketing OR the techs.

    Ideally, you'll have a manager who can handle all three modes of "logic" and explain what they want you to do and why in a way that you can understand and handle.

    1. Re:Mod parent up. by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 3, Insightful
      Speaking of Marketing, I've got to register some serious objections to this gem in TFA:

      The dirty part? Techies often play a little fast and loose with the truth. But it's the marketing hag who catches hell for it.

      TFA goes on to berate techies for claiming something is ready when it isn't, etc. I don't buy it. Most techies I know are too truthful for their own good, partly because of the b/w nature of our world, and partly as an allergic reaction from cleaning up too many overpromise/underdeliver SNAFUs we inherit from Sales and Marketing types. I've been on the techie end of that equation too many times, and although you can take my unconfirmed anecdotal data as you wish, my guess is that most here have had similar experiences.

      Hypothetical conversation between techie and marketing hag:

      MH: So, I'm like, trying to put together a press release and a flyer about OurLatestCoolthing1.0, and I was hoping you could like, help me with the technical parts.
      T: Yeah, sure. Happy to help.
      MH: Oh cool. So, like I talked to your manager, and he said that OLC v1.0 is fully Web 2.0 and cloud compliant, and is guaranteed to save companies 50% of their IT budget. Then he ...
      T: What? No. That's just wrong. Are you sure he said that?
      MH: [puzzled look] Yeah. I like just got done talking with him, and he said to talk to you, because you could like explain it better.
      T: Oh. [mental note to speak to the boss man] Yeah, well you probably don't want to say "Web 2.0 and cloud compliant", because that doesn't make sense. There is no "Web 2.0" or "cloud" standard per se, and so there's really nothing to be compliant with ...
      MH: [scribbling furiously] Wait, what? Standard? What do you mean?
      T: There is no "cloud computing" standard. It's just a buzzword. You can't be compliant with it because ... [notices the MH's eyes glazed over] Okay, say something like this - "OLC 1.0 leverages Web 2.0 technology to bring the power of cloud computing to your fingertips."
      MH: [eyes light up] Oh! Good! I could use that! [scribbles] Okay, "OLC 1.0 leverages Web 2.0 technology to bring the power of cloud computing to your fingertips.
      T: You probably don't want to guarantee any specific level of savings, either. Have you talked to Sales about that?
      MH: Okay. Great, thanks! [leaves cubicle, then sticks head back in for one more question] Oh, by the way, how many engineers do we have certified on this?
      T: Right now? No one. We just finished building the platform, and we haven't finished writing the training material yet. Why?
      MH: Oh. How many will you have trained by like the end of next week?
      T: Uhh, none. Not until the training material is finished. Talk to the technical writers and trainers.
      MH: [worried] But like, how many will you eventually have trained?
      T: [shrugs] Well, all the inbound tech support guys, for starters, and then ...
      MH: Oh! Right! Good! So like, how many of them are there?
      T: Eight guys at the moment, but ...
      MH: Great ... thanks! Bye!

      Half an hour later, the phone rings. A sales guys calls up to ask about the OLC v1.0. He just saw the latest marketing press release, and is really glad to see that it is "Web 2.0 and Cloud compliant".

      --
      I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
  22. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

    No, but it all-too-often cheaper to hire idiots, then send it back to them for correction until they get it right.

  23. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by rickb928 · · Score: 3, Informative

    If you can re-write what they spit out as a support function, you are working too cheap. And of course the company's accounting system is worse than the State of Arizona's. Which is bad.

    What you just said was also 'I can do it as well as they can, all by myself, within a support timeline'. So you and/or your boss are not selling your abilities either. But that's another topic - how do you sell to management what they aready have? Imagine the hilarity when they realize they paid twice for the project, and one of the costs is already in the house...

    --
    deleting the extra space after periods so i can stay relevant, yeah.
  24. Those qualify as dirty jobs in this industry? by barzok · · Score: 4, Funny

    Mike Rowe would laugh at every last one of them.

    1. Re:Those qualify as dirty jobs in this industry? by KlomDark · · Score: 4, Funny

      Hell, he'd take one look at it and start a company called...

      Wait for it...

      MikeRoweSoft...

      Yes, it's already been done...

    2. Re:Those qualify as dirty jobs in this industry? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mike Rowe would laugh at every last one of them.

      not really -- I've had pigs step on computers, cow poop covering laptops, mice living inside the computer, etc. Try working in Ag Research :-)

  25. Place I hated... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of all the IT places I've worked, UPS has got to be one of the worst.

    My "office" was *literally* the closet under the stairs to the men's locker room. The fileserver sat a couple feet under a water pipe. When people flushed upstairs, we heard it. Every single flush. There was a leak once and I had to put garbage bags over the server. I don't know if it was from a clean water pipe or from the drain, but it was sad.

    That wasn't the worst part of it. While I was there the dress code requirement was slacks, button down shirt and tie. If we were visiting a customer site we needed to wear a suit. To put this into perspective, the UPS customer shipping systems I needed to maintain were almost always in a dusty warehouse. Often there was layers of dust, grime and all sorts of grunge over the equipment. Add to this that it was South Florida, where the temperatures were often in the 90F to 100F range, and it was freaking miserable.

    But that's not the worst part of it. Every peak season (i.e., around Christmas time), the IT guys had to help deliver packages. They gave me a package car once and shelves full of packages. More often though I had to use my personal vehicle. Think about that... I was an IT guy (officially, a Technology Support Group person), but I had to deliver packages. This also occurred whenever the Teamsters went on strike. I was a "jumper" to some manager. I.e., while he sat on his fat ass driving the package car around, I would have to unload the packages, run up to the door and deliver the package.

    There was also the work environment. Most of the managers were former truck drivers. It's a completely different mindset than college educated folks. UPS was the only place in my professions career where managers would routinely curse at the employees. We were spared from the brunt of it, but it was not unusual to hear "you fucking piece of shit" and other wonderful phrases being tossed around in a meeting room.

    Did I mention the Union? I was showing an employee how to scan a package once and some union reps came up behind me and were upset because -- get this -- I *touched* a package. I mean that literally. These large folks were upset because I touched a package. Non-hourly folks (managers, tech guys) were not supposed to touch packages. We did it all the time, of course, but when the union reps were there it was a big deal...

    Did I mention the management? Many were racist (and a couple times I had to give statements because one manager was fond of calling his workers "monkeys" and "n*s"). Very little integrity among them also. One manager took one of my documents, ripped off the cover page, and submitted it as his own (Yes, that's you Luis Al-------.).

    Maybe it's changed in the years since I left, but it was the absolute worst place to work.

  26. Systems Admin/Cable Puller... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I worked for a "Mom & Pop" ISP/Computer repair shop back a few years ago. I was hired as a "Systems/Network Administrator". Soon, I discovered that my true title was "Systems Admin/Cable Puller"...

    One day, after a couple weeks on the job, I went into work, preparing to install a new backup server. Later that morning, I went out for three weeks pulling Cat 5 for a school's new network. 95-115 degrees each day and no air conditioning in the old school, rats in the attic, ceilings, walls, etc. (Basically, rats and other vermin in all the areas I was crawling around in.) And did I mention I'm claustrophobic?

    No, that job didn't last long. Not long after I ruined three suit. The horror story part of this one is that I got chewed out by my new boss because the Spam filter went down in the middle of the night and I didn't see it due to being in the hospital. That was the wonderful night I learned of my allergy to rats. Ah, memories.

    My point is this: any job in IT can be either dangerous or completely idiotic. It is up to the tech as to whether or not he/she should stay as a fixture or become the abuser, et al.

    Good luck everyone!

    --Tom

  27. Bats in the cabeling by mjwalshe · · Score: 1

    a coupel of years we had a spate of Bats living in my companies roof void we used to find them dead and some times alive I had bat removeal duties - not a problem its the ones in scotland that sometimes have rabies :-)

  28. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is not uncommon even inside companies.

    A friend of mine fixes "dirty and broken" RF designs that others in his office develop - this is largely his full time job. I asked him why they didn't just get him to do the design ... all he did was groan.

    We can't do code reviews because that might hurt someone's delicate ego. I have been making do with unofficial reviews where I preview the check ins of some junior staff and advise them on better ways of doing things / major disasters. I help the ones that appreciate it and their work is getting much better over time.

    Who knows what bizarre politics lurk in the bowels of organizations... Some of us just work around it.

  29. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I fix the horribly shitty code written by offshore Indian "developers".

    The crap and stupidity I encounter from them daily is far worse than dealing with rodents, or cramped spaces, or spending months on the high seas.

    I am an Indian developer in USA. The stupidity of general American developers around me is astounding. I guess I can generalize and say American developers are just stupid and incompetent.

  30. Quick someone call Mike Row! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Looks like a good idea for an episode of Dirty Job on Discovery channel. We need to let the public know that white collar job can be a dirty job!

  31. Wistle-blower is not a job by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    And the asshole who turned in his school deserves to burn, along with all of the evil fuckers of the BSA.

  32. Dirty Jobs by pak9rabid · · Score: 1

    Quick, somebody call MIke Rowe!

    1. Re:Dirty Jobs by Shadyman · · Score: 1

      I enjoy watching Mike Rowe, but seriously? Mike Rowe in a datacenter? I cringe at the thought.

    2. Re:Dirty Jobs by WeatherGod · · Score: 1
      Mike: "So, what does this button do?"

      You: "It is a control button..."

      ::pushes button::

      You: "... and it is very important."

      You: "You just shut off the internet for the entire east coast."

  33. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Pretty much all the code I see is crap. I am NOT a Java or Perl or C developer any more, but some of the code I see makes me cringe. For example, here's some shell script I saw a while back:

        LOGDIR=/path/to/some/log/dir
        cd $LOGDIR
        rm -rf *

    Then there was the developer that use column counts to get a filesize from an ls listing. The code failed when a directory got larger, but they didn't realize this until much later when the directory grew again and the process just failed.

    I've had one developer copy binaries from an AIX Power5 system to a RedHat Linux x86_64 and wonder why it didn't work.

    There was the developer who submitted a problem ticket because "ls didn't work". Resolution? There were no non dotfiles in his home directory so it wouldn't return anything.

    I've seen "seasoned" Perl developers who didn't know how to include a module.

    There was one developer who couldn't figure out how to read a credentials file so hardcoded the creds into the code. Of course you know what happened when the password changed...

  34. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I don't know: I'm not a plumber. Sure as hell works well a treat if you offshore the bulk of dev. work and get a local specialist to fix it as required.

  35. How many call him first? by khasim · · Score: 1

    There are tons of bosses who think that it's a good idea to send out emails about their product/services to thousands of people who never asked for them (hey their product is wonderful after all, etc etc).

    And how many of those bosses would think to call him for his services PRIOR to sending that email?
    http://www.rhyolite.com/anti-spam/that-which-we-dont.html

    And there really are overzealous spamfilters. I've seen people here who think it's a great idea to block off entire IP ranges (not just for their personal systems, but at a corporate level).

    Yep. The question still comes back to who hires him.

    If Corporation X (not an ISP or email provider) is blocking email sent by Company A ... why would Company A hire this guy to talk to Corporation X?

    Wouldn't the person at Company A who is trying to email someone at Corporation X call that person and tell them about the blocked email?

    1. Re:How many call him first? by aztracker1 · · Score: 1

      Except my hobby BBS, and myself in turn don't have the clout or resources to get a good contact at gmail, yahoo or hotmail to allow the new user validation emails through. Despite the BBS/site being on a commercial IP block, and having never sent unsolicited commercial email. I used to send out a newsletter a few times a year, and always removed people on request. I realize that I am collateral damage in the war on spam, which is why I will do manual sends a few times a week from my gmail account just to make sure people get their newuser email. It doesn't mean I like it... though I damned sure don't like the third party email that clogs my decade old email account that I have for legacy needs, and pretty much just delete it all every few days.

      --
      Michael J. Ryan - tracker1.info
    2. Re:How many call him first? by DocSavage64109 · · Score: 1

      It's been my experience that the big ISPs have procedures for getting your site removed from the black list. I've at least had luck with AOL in that regard. Usually you just have to make sure you have spf set up, give them the ips your responsible for, and send them a complaint email address where they can forward spam complaints.

  36. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Houses are built to last 100 years or more, right now very little IT products (software and hardware) are produced to last more than ten years, with the introduction of virtual machines things will change as with IBM mainframes, where software designed for 70's machines run in today mainframes.

    Right now with software you need to put it in the market as soon as possible to start generate profit and then fix the problems with support contracts. It's not the right way but the one more profitable.

  37. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Of course you think American developers are stupid and incompetent. Why else would you keep writing shitty code?

  38. Obligatory XKCD by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Obligatory xkcd: http://xkcd.com/705/

  39. FTFY by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Steven Jobs provides further proof that dirty duty abounds on the front lines of IT.

  40. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    (Must post as AC..)

    I've seen my share of this in different companies. I can't complain too loudly. I clean up after some very slovenly people, but it pays the bills. But the contributing factors tend to be:

    • The overseas staff is overworked or over-scheduled. It's easier to put in crap code than add a genuine fix, especially if mgmt. is cracking the whip.
    • Resume inflation. Many of the folks overseas are motivated only by money, and the more impressive the title, the higher the salary. Passion for development is notoriously lacking.
    • Inexperience. See the last bullet. There's also the common misconception (among junior developers everywhere) that "if I just do what they tell me, I'll get ahead". (If only..)
    • "But it works!!"
    • Hubris. Someone with an impressive title is far less eager to learn, especially from their own mistakes.
    • Software management.. isn't. If you're doing outsourcing work overseas, or you're with a company that embraces it as a panacea, it sucks to be you. You're not working for software managers, you're working for cost accountants. Developers are interchangeable resources, quality means nothing, only dates matter.
    • Misplaced nationalism. Every so often, a junior, inexperienced team of offshore developers try to architect a grand project that will make everyone's life so much easier, just to prove they're as capable as anyone else. I think you know what the results tend to be.
  41. Home Support for VIPs by Nexzus · · Score: 1

    My last place, I was asked to, out of hours, go and setup the home network and VPN setup of the director of something or other. It was implied that it would be part of my normal course of duties. I absolutely refuse to do things of that sort, so I replied that my next available evening would be approximately 19 months from that day, and I could do it then. But I could expedite the process and clear some time to do the work for my "normal" contract billing hours - $200/hr, minimum three hours, plus travel expense of $4/km. (Hey, Mustangs aren't cheap to run).

    I was never asked for home support after that.

    --
    Karma: Can only be portioned out by the Cosmos.
    1. Re:Home Support for VIPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I was never asked for home support after that.

      I would have simply fired you. Seriously. Your attitude is typical of IT folks who seem to think this is stil 1995.

    2. Re:Home Support for VIPs by taustin · · Score: 1

      Unless he qualified for salaried exempt (and damned few computer people do), asking him to do that without pay is a crime in most states. Firing him for refusing to do so is a crime that might actually get some attention, depending on what state.

      (Home IT support for the owner of the company I work for is explicitly part of my job, but a) he's not an idiot when it comes to computers, and b) since he tried having his nephew "who knows a lot about computers" fix something, he's been very, very polite to me.)

    3. Re:Home Support for VIPs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Pfft you fool. I always take these jobs so I can see what kind of security system they have, leave a window unlocked, then return later to rob them blind,
      just as they rob me blind daily. Hello capitalism !

    4. Re:Home Support for VIPs by corbettw · · Score: 1

      They should've sent you during normal business hours. Helping someone get their VPN up and running is definitely within the scope of an IT person's duties. Though I agree in refusing to do it outside of normal business hours, that's just asking too much for something that doesn't have to be done later than 5pm.

      --
      God invented whiskey so the Irish would not rule the world.
  42. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    If you're in the US then you're not an offshore Indian developer now are you? The code I've had to work on that was developed here in the US by Indians has been fine, but the code developed offshore not so much.

  43. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Houses are built to last 100 years or more

    You haven't looked at recent house construction, have you?

  44. plague = avoid by archangel9 · · Score: 1

    Worse, if you do a good job for your clients, they'll want you to come to their homes and do the same thing there

    I avoid this at all costs. Many moons ago (read: 8-10 yrs) I would head out to the client's house for easy money. Turns out the same pennypinching tactics the client uses at work invariably show up at the house. "What do you mean, you're charging me X? I thought we were friends!?!?"

    What I wanted to say: "You entered into a verbal contract with a professional and requested services. Sir, we don't hang out, party, or write in each other's yearbook. I came here on my own time and expect to get paid. What I ended up saying, because I didn't want to get reported for doing side work (even though I didn't have any clause in my employment contract): "Oh, okay, my bad. Can I get a glass of water or something before I go?"

    Now, I politely refer them to the nearest homegrown tech shop, Geek Squad or whatever. If they insist, I quote them a stupid rate with a multi-hour minimum, plus gas and expenses. When they realize it will cost them $400 to "look at their PC, that just ain't actin rite", they head over to Best Buy and purchase a new one.

    1. Re:plague = avoid by Frosty+Piss · · Score: 0

      Many moons ago (read: 8-10 yrs) I would head out to the client's house for easy money.

      Hmmm... Extra money, eh?

      --
      If you want news from today, you have to come back tomorrow.
  45. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Myopic · · Score: 1

    You ask that question as if the metaphor speaks for itself, but it doesn't. I'm not a business mogul, but people who are business moguls are pretty good at doing math and finding the cheapest solutions. It strains credulity to say that all the people hiring Indian developers are making unwise business decisions. The only way that could be true is if you personally have superior knowledge and reasoning to all of those business people. That's possible, but unlikely.

  46. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by tibman · · Score: 1

    I get what you're saying but a lot of these things are beginner mistakes.. *face palm* learn the right way and move on.

    A decent explaination about the mistake and the correct way to do it goes a long way to further their knowledge and understanding. If they refuse to learn.. to hell with em and treat their work like lepers, no need to fixate on it. Keep them out of core dev and give them little side projects to learn from.

    --
    http://soylentnews.org/~tibman
  47. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by david_thornley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    My observations: There are some very good Indian developers. There are some very cheap Indian developers. My observations do not include any overlap between the two.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  48. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    >> So, is it cheaper to hire idiots to write most of the code and then hire someone smart later to fix it?

    >Doesn't the question answer itself? What's cheaper in the long run - install plumbing and wiring *while* the house is being built or afterwards?

    Actually if the plumbing and wiring aren't in the walls, it will never pass the rough-in inspection unless you bought the inspector.
    You usually don't have the option of installing wiring and plumbing after the walls are closed up when building the house, unless you live somewhere that doesn't require inspection of new residence construction.

  49. Redundancy by boristdog · · Score: 1

    "penny-pinching clients"

    You mean "clients"

  50. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The sql processes I've seen wreak havoc on a website kept me employed for years! On the other hand I did admire their attitude.

  51. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I have to ask - was your motivation for this post an attempt to look smart or are you literal to the point of cluelessness?

  52. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by willith · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Imagine the hilarity when they realize they paid twice for the project, and one of the costs is already in the house...

    Judging by how most workplaces function, his employer would immediately source the in-house cost. Then they'd end up with one offshore code house fixing another offshore code house's mistake. They'd still pay twice for the work, but now it would be "aligned to strategy."

  53. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by NotBornYesterday · · Score: 1

    but people who are business moguls are pretty good at doing math and finding the cheapest solutions.

    They are pretty good at math and spreadsheets, but they fail at predicting the future. I doubt wholesale recoding was in the original plan. The original plan looked like "Hire twice the number of Indian programmers at 1/4 the cost, get done in half the time! Beat the competition and pocket the savings! Yay!"

    "Fix the code in a hurry" is added as an addendum after the truth bites them in the ass.

    --
    I prefer rogues to imbeciles because they sometimes take a rest.
  54. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by WindowlessView · · Score: 1

    >I don't know: I'm not a plumber. Sure as hell works well a treat if you offshore the bulk of dev. work and get a local specialist to fix it as required.

    If you are satisfied with the construction and quality assurance of that sentence I have no doubt you will find similarly constructed software acceptable.

    --
    Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
  55. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by WindowlessView · · Score: 1

    > Right now with software you need to put it in the market as soon as possible to start generate profit and then fix the problems with support contracts.

    Oh, the Microsoft model. Yes, customers love that. Especially when they have to acceptance test the same crap 5 times before meeting minimum functionality.

    --
    Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
  56. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by thebagel · · Score: 2, Insightful

    My observations show roughly the same thing. My observations also show that roughly the same pattern applies to American developers, a fact that most (not necessarily you) tend to forget.

  57. where's application form? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Goddammit I was made for last three positions of the 7 dirtiest and two of the even dirtier ones.
    Where's the application form?

  58. Its Missing by KingPin27 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They are missing a fairly dirty job in IT... Help Desk / Service Desk / Catch All Desk / fix it its not working desk..... Spend a year here and see what you think of your sanity and cleanliness after. Most of these people wouldn't know about network problems or pr0n infesting spyware unless the Help Desk dealt with it first.

    --
    "i lost my dignity on a slippery wiener"
    1. Re:Its Missing by DigiShaman · · Score: 1

      Help Desk is also a critical role in an IT department. It acts as the oil to keep the machine running as smooth as possible. They also provide the first line of support for the next guys; The Server Admins. The servers either work or they don't... for the most part. But the most critical task of the Server Admin is to ensure backups are being performed and ensure restores are possible. If a server bombs or data is deleted, these guys are the ones that end up getting reamed out by the CxO. Not a fun situation to be in.

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
  59. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by tomhudson · · Score: 1

    Actually if the plumbing and wiring aren't in the walls, it will never pass the rough-in inspection unless you bought the inspector

    You'd be surprised at how little some municipalities look at. The plans, and ... the plans. Once the fee is paid and the permit issued, they're not going to come by every day to make sure everything is up to code. That's why you can end up digging up sewer pipe and copper plumbing a few years after its been installed because it doesn't conform to code and nobody checked.

    That's nothing compared to selling houses that were built on a non-existent street ("the city is behind schedule for laying the sidewalks and asphalt - they promised it will be done by July, though" with no water or sewer connections. Happened in Montreal (I guess they got the idea from watching Les Bougon).

    And there's now this - cities allowing - or even requiring - the use of cast iron pipe for the sewer pipe between the house and city connection, even though that's been obsolete for 30 years. SDR-26 and SDR-35 pvc sewer pipe is cheaper, lighter, and better (you can force the rubber gasket joints together with some grease and a sledge hammer, or use a backhoe bucket to push them together),

  60. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Keep them out of core dev and give them little side projects to learn from.

    That's the problem.. If we hire a consultant we sure as hell don't want to pay them to learn. That's the biggest annoyance. We hire a seasoned developer and get crap. And every consulting company is the same.. Lots of junior programmers, straight out of tech school, who can't write enterprise level code. The crap they're pushing out is fine for a CS101 assignment, but not for critical applications and infrastructure.

    And they don't really learn either. Many of them are pissed off at consulting companies that charge them $20K US to come over here. They are human, just like us, and probably don't have a lot of incentive to put in that extra effort for some parasitic company.

  61. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by element-o.p. · · Score: 1
    In my (limited) experience, this is what usually happens:
    1. Customer needs new software
    2. Customer asks developers for a quote on the software
    3. Customer balks at the price of skilled developers, and chooses cheap offshore labor (or reeaaaallly green local developer)
    4. Customer gets crap, and now hires the developer (s)he should have hired in the first place to "fix" the horribly broken code they got by skimping in step 3
    5. Customer spends twice (or more) the money they would have spent by doing it right the first time

    <shrug> It's sad because at each step of the process, some PHB was absolutely certain they were doing The Right Thing (tm). Hopefully, they will figure it out eventually...

    --
    MCSE? No, sir...I don't do Windows. Yes, I am an idealist. What's your point?
  62. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by billcopc · · Score: 3, Interesting

    We went through this just a few months ago, as a tiny coder shop. We needed an Asterisk IVR built, had never done it before and didn't have time to learn, so we contracted out to an offshore company who were supposedly experts with Asterisk, as referred to us by a business acquaintance. We actually ended up with a working product, but it took so much hand-holding and error checking that by the time they delivered the final version, I knew more about Asterisk than they did, mostly because I read the PHPAGI docs a bit more thoroughly. And it was about 6 weeks late on a 2 week timeline. Face, meet egg.

    The 10-hour timezone shift was a massive PITA. The communication hurdles led to poor quality output, because instead of asking us proper questions, they'd "play dumb" and do it wrong, seemingly on purpose hoping we wouldn't notice I guess. Every time they'd jiggle some code, we had to retest our entire flowchart and bark at them for every failure. Maybe I'm a hopeless idealist, but I like to think of contractors as a black box: work order goes in, completed work comes out. In my mind, that includes testing, especially since we had crystal clear pass/fail scenarios.

    I'm sure there are some Indian shops that are worth the money (bell curve), but this one clearly wasn't. Sure, they were cheap, but I ended up doing more work to support them than had I done it all from scratch, so it ended up costing more. On the upside, I am now modestly self-sufficient in writing PHP scripts to drive Asterisk; another random skill I never wanted in the first place.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  63. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by operagost · · Score: 1

    You could, but then you wouldn't be echoing what the original poster said. He said that he fixes code written by Indian "developers", and that the ones _he works with_ give him "crap and stupidity". Meanwhile, you said that "American developers are stupid," proving that you are a pathetic, hateful person with a thin skin. By the way, you refer to this country as "the USA", not "USA".

    --

    Gamingmuseum.com: Give your 3D accelerator a rest.
  64. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by billcopc · · Score: 1

    Except they will never get it 100% right. Both parties will eventually settle for something that mostly-works and kinda-sucks, when the pressure from the client for fixes equals the backpressure from the idiots for "we have spent enough time on you" (sometimes written as "fuck off and die").

    Hire a good coder from the start (or leverage the ones you already have), and you'll have less of this back-and-forth, where all you're really doing is reiterating the specs you gave them in the first place. The issue of code quality is subjective, but when the guy writing it knows he'll probably still be here in 6 months when it needs updates, he just might try to keep his work clean and manageable. When you're just another wealthy american sucker to a faraway sweatshop, all bets are off.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  65. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by billcopc · · Score: 1

    True, but the American developer is much easier to rein in and/or terminate. If a contractor is awful, you'll ditch him and he'll find ten more suckers around the corner. If you fire your own awful coder, that sonofabitch is out of a job, and when he has the gall to give your name as a reference to his future employers, you'll have the opportunity to keep him out of THAT job too.

    The issue here is not one of race, but purely geographic / organisational. A local contractor that does a poor job, gets poor reviews, no recommendations and their income dries up. A remote contractor has a much wider audience, any bad rep gets lost in the background noise of the interweb.

    --
    -Billco, Fnarg.com
  66. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by tsm_sf · · Score: 1

    You ask that question as if the metaphor speaks for itself, but it doesn't. I'm not a business mogul, but people who are business moguls are pretty good at doing math and finding the cheapest solutions. It strains credulity to say that all the people hiring Indian developers are making unwise business decisions. The only way that could be true is if you personally have superior knowledge and reasoning to all of those business people. That's possible, but unlikely.

    The people hiring offshore developers might not be making unwise business decisions, but their clients almost certainly are.

    --
    Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
  67. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by david_thornley · · Score: 1

    Except that crappy American developers are more expensive than crappy Indian developers.

    --
    "When you have eliminated the unacceptable, whatever is left, however improbable, must be the truthiness" - Holmes
  68. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You haven't looked at recent house construction, have you?

    I currently own a 134 year old house, why do you think it was built better? Mostly, poorly built 130 year old houses already fell down, burned down, were taken down, or the owner(s) have rebuilt the constantly. It was common for houses to be built with scraps, foundations sank, water wasn't controlled, insulation was almost non-existent, drafts were common,

    From what I know of my house, it was built with neither electricity or indoor plumbing in mind.A second floor was added, it was widened, then extension out the back was added, probably around the time they moved the staircase (I'm thinking this is when indoor plumbing was added, in the 1930's). Around this time most of the walls were re-done, because they are all a 1930's era product (a transitional product, instead of wooden lathe, I have a drywall like lathe). 30 years after that, the house got a whole new foundation when it was relocated.

    In short, my homes is still around because its owners have been willing to poor money into fixing it and improving it, not because of better initial construction (or even maintenance, god so of the previous work I've had to fix over the past few years)

  69. Re:I fix code written by offshore Indian developer by jbezorg · · Score: 1

    So while they're still with the company, they can talk about all these great "initiatives" they've started,

    You are talking about an increase in Power Word ( or more accurately, brown matter ) density within Curriculum Vitae space. The problem is that past a certain density, Curriculum Vitae space can collapse in on itself. Then you have brown matter entering the accretion disk.

    e.g. "Facilitated & enhanced a balanced, agile solution in a collaborated, multi-national project that simplified and incorporated a streamlined production model transforming & modernizing the development process... ( this section omitted to avoid critical mass ) ...increasing & improving communication between departments while aligning the developer & marketing goals netting an increase in quarterly projections."

    --
    I've lost all my marbles except one & It's fun to test angular & centripetal acceleration in my skull
  70. #3 by Restil · · Score: 1

    I can resonate with #3 a bit. A company that I have been providing leased accounting software and support to for years is about to switch to something entirely new (and in the process, no longer require my services). Now, while the loss of monthly income (when they pay on time) is certainly cause for concern, I also won't have to answer phone calls while I'm sleeping, and it will free up my more conventional work schedule so I can consider other job opportunities.

    The problem here, is that just today I got an email from the guys who are involved in the process of converting the company over to the new software. We are once again, for the third time now, starting from scratch with someone new who has no idea of what work has been done before. I'm getting emails with a bunch of specs and "can you do this for us" when I already did all of it months ago.

    And I know, for a fact, that there will be extensive resistance to the change. The software they're using now they've been using for 20+ years. The girls who work with it know it so well that they can crank out orders in literally a few seconds. No need to look up part numbers, or customer numbers, or do a lot of mouse manipulation, and they can do it without even looking at the screen for the most part. This allows them to have 1 office manager and one secretary handle a workload that involves taking phone orders at a rate of about one per minute. Each.

    When... if.. this switchover happens, they'll probably need to hire several new people just to handle it, at least for a little while. Not to mention, I provide nearly all of their computer services. I maintain their network, I handle their backups, both onsite and offline. When the printer stops working or a computer won't boot, they call me, and if necessary, I jump in my car, go down there, and fix the problem. I suspect they don't realize everything that I actually do, so they'll plop in a bunch of windows boxes (they currently use all linux right now), get the software set up, wish them well, and leave. Sure, the new provider will support the software package, but I'm sure the first time they get a virus they're going to be SOL.

    And the best part of it is, I WON'T HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT!!!! :)

    -Restil

    --
    Play with my webcams and lights here