Microsoft Mice Made in Chinese Youth Sweatshops?

An anonymous reader writes "The National Labor Committee offers an in-depth look into working conditions in Chinese sweatshops producing hardware (mice, etc.) for Microsoft, complete with pictures. Apparently, so called 'work study students,' 16 and 17 years of age, work 15-hour shifts, six and seven days a week, for around 65 cents per hour. Microsoft said it is taking the claims seriously and has 'commenced an investigation.'"

Comments

More companies too

[sopssa]

MS is probably the most catchy one, but the factory produces and packages hardware for a lot more USA companies too:

KYE factory in China, which manufactures computer mice and webcams for Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Samsung, Best Buy, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, ASUS and other US companies.

Earlier also Apple products were done by child labor at many factories.

These companies should move their factories to US or EU. But it's cheaper there and this is one of the reasons why. As long as it's cheaper, they don't care about ethics.

Re:More companies too

[mcgrew]

Of course that stuff is made in China; corporations care nothing about human rights, only profits. And a well paid (i.e., a living wage) workforce can't compete with sweatshop labor.

If our politicians were more beholden to voters and workers and less beholden to multinational corporations, we'd have tarriffs protecting American workers from competing with sweatshops.

Re:More companies too

[TheKidWho]

Of course that stuff is made in China; corporations care nothing about human rights, only profits

The opposite is also true, our consumerist society cares most about cost which is what drives these companies to move to places like China.

Re:More companies too

[FlyingBishop]

Ethical is paying a fair wage to your employees, and budgeting so that your suppliers can do the same.

Re:More companies too

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Given that the factory in question is in blatant violation of existing Chinese labor laws, the suggestion that it be smacked down is hardly couchbound western cultural imperialism...

Re:More companies too

[Shakrai]

If our politicians were more beholden to voters and workers and less beholden to multinational corporations, we'd have tarriffs protecting American workers from competing with sweatshops.

1930 called. They want their protectionist economic theory back.

Re:More companies too

[X0563511]

And this 'fair wage' is rooted where it matters. It's not fair here, no. It _might_ be fair over there (I don't know) - but comparisons using our standard and cost of living is invalid either way.

I'm not saying the current situation is right. I'm saying that the idea of a 'fair wage' is fluid, and our viewpoint is only valid here.

Re:More companies too

[PopeRatzo]

The opposite is also true, our consumerist society cares most about cost which is what drives these companies to move to places like China.

No, son. Our corporations care more about profits which is what drives these companies to move to places like China.

Surprisingly, you can find companies succeeding at all sorts of industries that we have been told have "moved out of the US" such as textiles, clothing, shoes, even electronics. For the transnationals that are owned by people who have nothing to do with the business itself, succeeding and making a profit is not enough. Employing people is not enough. Getting rich is not enough. Your not "winning" unless your constantly growing, and then growing faster. The drive to show quarterly increases in profit have driven this "dive to the bottom" that is resulting in kids in China working 12-hour shifts to make your WalMart trash.

Honestly, every Walmart could close tomorrow and people's lives would go on as before. Stores would open and sell stuff. People would make stuff. Life would go on. But predatory capitalism, where Capital precedes Labor instead of the other way around, is going to make things a lot worse for a lot of people. The best part, is they can sell it as "making life better".

Re:More companies too

[FlyingBishop]

Well, Apple gets away with charging an absurd markup for basically no reason, you would think they could get away with ensuring good wages for all their suppliers employees.

Re:More companies too

[CharlieMurphy]

Unfortunately workers are often "forced to" stay at work as the employers withhold salaries to ensure the workers stick around. The workers poor education and government corruption mean there is not much the workers can do about it. There was a very well done documentary about a young girl working in a jeans factory in China which showed the terrible working and living conditions, I wish I could recall the name of it.

Re:More companies too

[commandermonkey]

You are may be correct in stating that they choose to work in those conditions. And although the conditions may be abhorrent to a citizen of a developed western country it may be the norm in China.

That doesn't mean I am comfortable with supporting those practices.

When people go off about 'what the market will bear' they seem to only factor in the financial cost of producing an individual widget and not the cost of Goodwill, Public Perception etc. that also factors in.

Look at the apartheid boycott's. Damage to companies based on their labor practices was very real and help bring about social change within a country. Even though the practice was the norm in the region.

Re:More companies too

[khallow]

Given that the factory in question is in blatant violation of existing Chinese labor laws

Is it? I'm sure the well-bribed, local officials would say otherwise. And their word is really how it is determined whether law is broken or not. That's how it goes in a nation of men not of laws.

Re:More companies too

[mcgrew]

They are paid what the market will bear in that region, these people choose to work there for a reason, they aren't forced to.

Don't kid yourself, most people have no such choices but take what is available. Not just China, but everywhere. If the Chinese sweatshop laborer had a choice, they'be be living somewhere that they could have a better life.

They should probably get paid a little more, but then again you have the whole tech/geek culture which scrutinizes any product that costs more then the competition.

That's not geek culture, that's Ferengi culture. Geeks don't do cost/benefit analyses, we discover, create, and modify stuff. There's no such thing as an "economics geek"; nerds are scientists, engineers, programmers, designers. If your're only interested in money, you're not a geek or nerd.

Imagine if the iPad were made in the USA instead of China, people complaining about the price today would be having a shitfest if it was made here.

And Apple would have lower profits while the price would be higher. The Chinese sweatshop laborer is the one paying for that less expensive iPad and more robust Apple profits.

Re:More companies too

[Herkum01]

It is hard to consider the work environment when the average person does not have access to that information. That is one of the major problems with exploitation and outsourcing. Companies can pretend they are doing the world some good while having people in near slavery type conditions.

Until information about how products is created, this sort of environment will continue and the consumer will not be able to adjust their purchasing habits.

Re:More companies too

[DerekLyons]

They are paid what the market will bear in that region, these people choose to work there for a reason, they aren't forced to. In fact it's a very good thing because it provides jobs and income to people who would otherwise have none. The USA and Britain have gone through this same period of the industrial revolution. A change in labor laws or working conditions can not be forced upon them, it must come from within China by the Chinese people themselves.

Having studied more than a little history, I've encountered rhetoric like this before: by slavers all through history.
 
Seriously, "they aren't forced to work there" but "otherwise they wouldn't have jobs and income"? That's an insane justification.

Re:More companies too

[K. S. Kyosuke]

Absurd? Do you realize how much power does an RDF generator consume when it's online? Apple's power bill must be humongous.

Re:More companies too

[rsilvergun]

These are computer mice. They are useful in the production of food, shelter and other necessities of life. They are not absolutely essential to the vast mass of people. They do not need to be manufactured in the kind of quantities that require these working conditions to be profitable. You're losing site of the bigger picture, which is raising everyone's standard of living.

The hard part is looking past the indoctrination you received in grade school. Capitalism is not always right.

Re:More companies too

[petermgreen]

note that these people are in the age range where in most of the western world you have some but not all of the rights and responsibilities of an adult.

According to http://www.dol.gov/compliance/guide/childlbr.htm "Minors age 16 and 17 may perform any job not declared hazardous by the Secretary, and are not subject to restrictions on hours ". So these people are old enough that if they were US citizens they could work in the US. In the UK things are similar but slightly more complex (mainly that things are defined in terms of school years rather than actual age).

I'm not saying there aren't problems here but it's not exactly "child labour" in the conventional sense of the term.

Re:More companies too

[t33jster]

Ok, wages are a piece of the puzzle here, but for a moment, take wage out of the equation, and consider the working conditions from TFA.

"We are like prisoners," one worker told the NLC. "It seems like we live only to work. We do not work to live. We do not live a life, only work."

I can relate to that from time to time, but when it's gotten really bad, I've been able to spruce up my resume & find a new (often better-paying) job with the skills that I've learned while 'imprisoned.' That's not the case here:

The workers - mostly women aged 18 to 25 - work from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m. They eat horrid meals from the factory cafeterias. They have no bathroom breaks during their shifts, and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC. They sleep in factory dormitories, 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28-inch-wide plywood boards. They "shower" with a sponge and a bucket. And many of the workers, because they're young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC alleges.

Add in a rich industrialist who adopts one of the spunky factory workers, sprinkle in a few production numbers, and we have Annie. Seriously though, I've worked as many hours for a week or two on end, but hey, I'm salaried, and sometimes I have to suck it up.
If they were paid whatever a reasonable wage is, then the rest of this crap wouldn't be going on. If it was a reasonable wage, then they could save up, send themselves to college & make a better life for themselves, and the factory would eventually run itself out of labor. Sweatshops don't retain employees with morale-boosting team activities or high wages. Instead employee loyalty is had by paying them just enough to maintain their state of poverty.

Re:More companies too

[dkleinsc]

It should be pointed out that the National Labor Committee's standard MO is exposing the use of foreign sweatshop labor, so that there's a significant PR cost to continuing to use this sort of labor. Sometimes they're successful in embarrassing companies into doing the right thing. Sometimes they're not. Often they're more successful in embarrassing companies into appearing to do the right thing but continuing their sleazy practices behind the scenes. Or often the company that the American firm they're embarrassing gets promised "no, no, of course we don't use sweatshop labor" by the foreign contractor, who proceeds to use sweatshop labor anyways knowing that the American firm will never check on it.

Their work is illuminating on how the push towards free trade has impacted the poorer areas of the world. It's worth thinking about when you're at Walmart, at an economics lecture, or in the voting booth.

Re:More companies too

[Shakrai]

You've never heard of the Smoot-Hawley act have you?

Re:More companies too

[Maxo-Texas]

A 15 hour day is evidence of a non-fair wage.

We are essentially using them as slaves or batteries.

They have no time to live as humans.

Re:More companies too

[t33jster]

To your point that just because $x is not enough to live on in one place doesn't mean that it's not enough anywhere - I agree. However, given the rest of the information about conditions, it's an easy conclusion to draw that the wage is, in fact, not 'fair'. Economic relativity should not be used to justify moral relativism.
As a consumer of Chinese (and other developing nations') labor, it is on my conscience whether I support these practices by spending my fair wages on stuff assembled by people who get treated like livestock. I had no idea that it was cheaper to employ a person to stick the feet on a mouse than to have a machine do it. If the overall treatment (including wages) of employees was fair, would an automated assembly line be more cost effective?

Re:More companies too

[Runaway1956]

I speak as a lazy man. I WANT to work about 32 to 40 hours per week, and get a good paycheck. I've seldom done that, though. Those jobs that were paid by the hour, and limited to a "normal" (in the U.S.) workweek generally suck ass on payday. I've worked many jobs that required me to be "on the job" between 60 and 70 hours per week. Nice paydays, but LIFE SUCKS. A half hour commute, 12 hours on the job, another half hour commute, shower, fall into bed, get up, rinse and repeat. No life at all, dude. You forget the wife's name, you forget how many kids you have, the dog growls when you come home, and, worst of all, there's no time for TAH INTARTUBEZ!!! (A man HAS to get his priorities straight, right?)

15 hour days are ridiculous - that is slave labor, plain and simple.

Re:More companies too

[mcgrew]

When we buy something (electronics, car, clothes, vegetables, fruits ... anything!), do we stop and ask ourselves in what type on conditions that good was produced ?

We have no way of knowing under what conditions it was produced. No point in asking an unanswerable question.

Re:umm...

[ShadowRangerRIT]

That's going to be a bit of a problem, since most other mouse manufacturers apparently contract out to this outfit too. FTFA:

Companies such as Hewlett-Packard, Samsung, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech and Asus also outsource production to KYE Systems.

And it looks like that's just a sample list, not the complete set. The focus on Microsoft is because the article was in a Seattle newspaper, not due to sole complicity by Microsoft.

Re:Relevance?

[FuckingNickName]

Consume less. Buy second hand, upgrade only when you need to, don't buy iToys, enjoy the fresh air, etc.

The American govt doesn't have to do anything. You, OTOH, can.

Fact of life...

[MrCrassic]

While it sucks that working conditions like these exist, how else can we buy mice for $20?

Re:Fact of life...

[Peganthyrus]

Robots?

Re:Fact of life...

[icebraining]

I agree, but I don't think that his point was "screw them, I want cheap stuff". I read it as "It's obvious they get nothing, if it costs us $20".

And it is. You don't have to do "research" to understand that any $20 mouse is due to workers getting a lousy wage.
Any person that is surprised by this report is either lying or naive.

The problem is, paying $50 instead of $20 doesn't guarantee the company pays they're workers more. For all we know, those $30 can be going to their profits anyway.

It is simply not profitable for them to care.

[sethstorm]

"The National Labor Committee offers an in-depth look into working conditions in Chinese sweatshops producing hardware (mice, etc.) for Microsoft, complete with pictures. Apparently, so called 'work study students,' 16 and 17 years of age, work 15-hour shifts, six and seven days a week

It's simply not profitable to have people who aren't afraid of their job and/or their life. Third World countries deliver both fears handily.

Microsoft said it is taking the claims seriously and has 'commenced an investigation.'"

Said investigation will be focused on how they can prevent such things from coming to light in the future. People will be bribed, families will go in/out of favor, etc. No real change will be made outside of moving it to another equally bad of a country/location.

66 cent compared to what?

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

In my opinion saying they "only" make 66 cent an hour means nothing without a reference. How much can you buy with 66 cent in China?

Re:66 cent compared to what?

[HopefulIntern]

I think we can be pretty sure that 66 cents gets you a lot more in China than it does in the US.

To make a comparison, you might make $30k a year, which is respectable in most areas of the US. But trying coming on holiday to Norway, your money is worth very little. You will shell out $16 for a .5l beer in Oslo.

Re:66 cent compared to what?

[TheRaven64]

Nonsense. Purchasing power varies massively across the world. Even in international chains like Starbucks charge a lot more for the same thing in different countries. When you're talking about locally produced food and goods it's a much bigger difference. The cost of food is closely related to the amount the people farming are paid, which is a lot lower in most of Africa or China than it is in the EU or USA, for example. And that's ignoring the fact that the Chinese government intentionally keeps the Yuan devalued against the US Dollar to promote exports, meaning that the purchasing power of the Yuan in China is higher than the exchange rate would lead you to believe.

Re:66 cent compared to what?

[TheKidWho]

In China you can eat a good meal for $0.50
In America you can barely afford a Candy Bar for $0.50

Re:66 cent compared to what?

[dskzero]

Not necesarily. A chocolate bar here in Venezuela can cost 3 BsF, which is around 50c. (Of course, there is this whole deal with the exchange control, but that's another thing altogether). And packs of cigarrete cost15 BsF, which is slightly more than two dollars. 66c an hour is around 5 BsF: more or less minimum wage in Venezuela. That could mean that the whole enchilada isn't really all that alarming. Not good, but hardly different than most other companies.

Re:66 cent compared to what?

[billius]

I'm not an economist, but according to Wolfram Alpha the GDP per capita for China is 3290 USD. Figuring 15 hours a day * $.065 per hour* 6 days a week * 52 weeks in a year = $3042 a year, so about 92% of the GDP per capita. Like any big country, I'm sure the cost of living varies quite a bit from region to region (for example a Big Mac in China costs about $1.83, meaning it takes about 3 hours to have enough to buy one) and working 15 hours a day definitely sucks, but at least on the surface the pay doesn't seem that bad. Anyone with more knowledge of economics have an opinion on the matter?

Re:Come on look at the photos

[hjf]

A picture doesn't tell me how many hours they've worked, or how old are them. Also, we don't know if the sleeping pics were staged. Investigation? Yes. Jumping to conclusions? No.

Solution

[Alarindris]

Take away their pay and call them 'interns'.

Re:Solution

[thijsh]

Don't they have thousands of 'interns' like that building the luxureous Dubai for instance?
Contrary to what most people believe the worldwide total of exploited people you can categorize under the label 'slave' is more than before the abolition of slavery... Slavery and human trade is booming business and an order or magnitude more widespread than in 'slavery times'.

Re:Well natch MS is looking into it

[TheRaven64]

It would be really helpful to put this in perspective. In some parts of India, $1 will pay for cheap accommodation and food for a day. In other parts, it will just about get you a cup of tea. This works out to just under $10/day, which seems a pitiful amount compared to prices where I live, but how does it compare to prices there? Are they able to save enough to go to university after a couple of years, are they barely able to afford food, or is it somewhere in the middle?

Not a surprise

[Akido37]

Every time news like this comes out, the Western companies act all shocked. OF COURSE they're working in crappy conditions for low pay - how else do they make products so cheaply?

In summary: "I'm SHOCKED to find gambling going on in this casino!!"

Sweatshop? Only by your standard

[jsse]

I'm not here to pro-Microsoft, but....

65 cents x 15 hours x 24 days (people work 6 days a week there) = US$234 ~= RMB1,614.00

The wage is much more than the average of the workers there. The starting salary of a factory worker is no more than US$100/mth, an experienced worker (>2 yrs exp) might not be able to ask for more than US$200/mth.

Also, from what I've seen in the article, the working environment is MUCH better than any other factories I've ever seen in China.

Still, I agree that the working hours are too long, but I'm sure the workers there are more than willing to work more than you'd ask for, given high-paid.

Re:Sweatshop? Only by your standard

[gzipped_tar]

In China (and everywhere else I believe), it is not illegal on its own to arrange 15-hour shifts. However, this can be carried out only in the presence of the employees' consent, and the "extra hours" (ones beyond the usual 8 hr) must be paid with extra wages (at least 2x on weekdays and 3x on holidays).

I can tell you that those girls and boys are more than willing to work the extra hours, but they're usually poorly educated and don't know their rights.

Also, in China it's not illegal to employ a 16- or 17-yr old if it can be proved that it is absolutely necessary for supporting the employee's family, AND the job does not involve risky operations e.g. ones w/ toxic matter, radiation, or working high above the ground.

Re:Sweatshop? Only by your standard

[wvmarle]

I just read TFA, before commented already on the salaries, and now I realise the numbers given do not add up.

The wage yes it looks very good. But according to TFA there is a base wage of RMB 770, plus overtime for longer working. TFA also talks about 12 hour shifts (sounds more reasonable) several times. There may be people that push on to 15 hours but that is rare. Quality falls rapidly with those hours and factory managers are not that stupid either.

By the way you are talking about migrant workers here, they tend to work seven hours a day, mainly because they do not have anything better to do, and are only there for the money in the first place.

OK then the strange bits: almost all workers are females of 17-25 years old, complaining that the base wage is "not enough to support a family". Women do not support a whole family in general, that's the man's task. And that age is a bit young for having your own family.

Salary and working hours as quoted add up to over 2000 RMB per month (15 hours a day, 4.5 RMB per hour, 30 days per month). Triple the base wage. That's a bit much for overtime.

During work hours, 1,000 workers could be crammed into one 105-foot by 105-foot room.

That is interesting. 11 sq.ft. (1 sq.m.) per worker? Including the conveyor belt, other equipment, space to work, aisles for the supervisor to walk through? Now Chinese ain't that big people, this is too tight to be believable. The photos do not back up so little space either.

While parts may be true (yes factory workers work very long hours in often poor conditions, though in the Pearl River Delta even double the minimum wage and airco on the factory floor is not enough any more these days!), it is also a bit sensationalist.

Re:Sweatshop? Only by your standard

[voodoo cheesecake]

And the money probably stays within their economy. There is a similar situation in Alaska. The seafood industry hires workers for minimum wage. Those employees work 16 hours a day, 7 days a week for four months straight. The majority of these employees are from the Philippines, Ethiopia, Somalia, and the Ukraine. They are charged for room and board and airfare. The majority of the money they make goes back with them. They work through the most brutal aches and pains while ankle deep in fish guts with no heat because the money is worth it to them. They all go home for a month, most blow all their money and come back broke - year after year. In another light, a deck hand on a fishing vessel averages 0.018 cents a pound for salmon (due to different types of salmon and assuming a standard 10% share of the catch). The cannery sells it for around $3.85 a pound and they process 10,000 pounds or greater per hour. Now, how that turns into around $12.00 a pound at the grocery store is insane since transportation and frozen storage only count for a fraction of that price. It's like a big slap in the face - especially to the deck hand who takes the greatest risks and works for 18 hours a day. Anyway, that's the closest thing to a sweat shop I've seen in the U.S.. I'm interested to know more about the worst working conditions that you've seen in China - things like that don't seem to make it into the news. As for the main article, it seems like the author tried to jab China and Microsoft in a single blow. I am no fan of Microsoft either, but I am grateful for your contribution of clarity.

Re:Relevance?

[MBGMorden]

And in the meantime enjoy a shittier quality of life while making no appreciable difference in the situation.

There are a few inconvenient truths in the world:

1. Nothing you do yourself is going to affect the world large scale. You can convince others of your ideals and act as a group, but in that case your words' affect on others, not your own actions, made any change.

2. People typically act in their own self interest, and they benefit for it.

3. A large group of individuals acting in their own interests will often not enact a course of actions which are in the best interests in the group as a whole. Prime example here can be seen with a large crowd in a theater. If someone yells fire (and there actually is one), then it's in my own best interest the book it. The faster I get out of that situation the better. When every individual acts in this manner though, people can be trampled to death. The overall death toll will be higher, but the odds on survival rest on those who run, not those who calmly exit. Indeed those who walk out (the best for the group if everyone did it) are the most likely to be trampled. You can TRY to take the high road and walk, but the reality is once the crowd is running you're not stopping them, and you're only hurting yourself by not running along with them.

God damn it Slashdot, I *like* MS hardware

[NevarMore]

Can we just please let this one slide and go pick on Apple?

I like my Microsoft mice and keyboards. They're actually pretty decent, don't make me hate them too.

Re:God damn it Slashdot, I *like* MS hardware

[drinkypoo]

Can we just please let this one slide and go pick on Apple?

No, but Apple is also evil.

I like my Microsoft mice and keyboards. They're actually pretty decent, don't make me hate them too.

I find that they suck fucking ass. The wireless ones have inferior range to the Logitech products, and they do not have the MTBF, either. Microsoft's gamepads are the quickest to get sloppy; the analog sticks get twitchy and drifty LONG before Sony's, for example. Microsoft knows jack about hardware design. The shape of the mice is probably the most inexplicable thing. Make it fit my hand like a glove, so I have to move my whole arm to use it? This is stupid.

Re:Child labour by western standards, perhaps

[Tapewolf]

Reading the article, the main thrust of it doesn't seem to be the fact that they're using 16-year-olds, though there is a part about 14-15 year-olds as well. The problem is mostly the way the factory is being run.

The workers – mostly women aged 18 to 25 – work from 7:45 a.m. to 10:55 p.m. They eat horrid meals from the factory cafeterias. They have no bathroom breaks during their shifts, and must clean the toilets as discipline, according to the NLC.

They sleep in factory dormitories, 14 workers to a room. They must buy their own mattresses and bedding, or else sleep on 28-inch-wide plywood boards. They "shower" with a sponge and a bucket. And many of the workers, because they're young women, are regularly sexually harassed, the NLC alleges.

Re:What?

[asdf7890]

I see pictures. I see many pictures. All contain images of smiling, happy workers, joyously engaging in their labor. What is problem?

The problem is that just out of shot is a manager who has just told them that if they don't look happy for the photos they, and anyone from their family/friends, will be sacked and never again employed by that factory or any other that the owner has connections to the owners of.

Re:Well natch MS is looking into it

[houghi]

It is not only about pay: The factory violates every labor law in China,
This is not about having a job you don't like with an ugly uniform and you have to say "Do you want fries with that?" This is about exploiting people by breaking the law. And I can imagine that the Chinese law is perhaps not up to the same standards as the US law, let alone th European law.

So if you break that law it must be really, really bad.

?!??? Are you serious? WTF?

[aussersterne]

You do a currency conversion when you travel, too. Ever been to South America? Eastern Europe? The average American can live like a king. In some places on the globe you can get a hotel room and three meals a day for less than $5. Seriously, what are you smoking? Even within the U.S. prices vary wildly. I rent in New York for $1,250. My sister pays $400 for a place of similar size in Utah. Are you suggesting that if I just do the appropriate "currency conversion," i can save $850 a month?

We are all to blame, let's not act surprised.

[slashsloth]

Do we have to keep pretending to be surprised every time evidence of this sort sort of a abuse is reported or published? Isn't it a fact of life that these companies are exploiting cheap labour & couldn't care less as long as we can all have cheap crap toys for half nothing? The tech industry, the textile industry, it's all built on exploitation. There's no other way we could be getting these products at the prices we do unless the labour costs were approximately 0. On top of which, these industries & their practices are as damaging to the environment as they are to the humans involved. We are all guilty here unless we demand something be done about it & that would mean stopping our mindless consumption of cheap junk.

not always

[zogger]

That wasn't true two generations ago, and I remember it clearly, as do a lot of other folks on this board who are early boomers or older. The USA made just about everything people here bought, and they bought everything that was made, and the currency shifted around internally a lot more than it does now, acting as an economic force multiplier inside our own 50 state/nation "free trade common market", and not near as much went to imports from outside of those 50 states. And we had a robust middle class that actually owned things, instead of being in debt for everything beyond the ability to pay, and you only needed one normal blue collar level income to support a family, etc. We had ten year house notes, 12 month car loans, and medical insurance was way cheap.

Now what has changed is Cxx salaries went from around 10-40 times what a line worker made, to now..who knows, thousands? What does Balmer or any of these other transnational CEOs-and all their legions of sub bosses- make compared to the wage of these Chinese factory line workers? I'm not going to bother to look it up, but I bet it is more than 40 times, a LOT more. We also didn't have near as much wall street mass wealth skimming going on, and the propaganda shilling to engage in global wage arbitrage or "globalism" hadn't started yet (much).

As to people here not wanting to do the work, any time a factory announces hiring they have thousands of applications for hundreds of jobs generally speaking. As to ag work and construction etc "no one wants to do it so they have to import workers", another fairy tale. And I know I have read here *many* times that in white collar IT work they game the system to get insourced cheaper labor as well, come up with background credentials needed that are physically impossible for anyone to have achieved, then use that as "proof" they need more H1Bs and so on. Musta read hundreds of those anecdotals here over the years now.

These fatcats goal is to break the back of the middle class, to steal their wealth, full stop, so they can have their global two class society, especially in the US where the middle class got so big and strong. They are feudalists at heart. Between outsourcing and insourcing, they are succeeding. If their schemes worked for the nation as a whole, like those liars claim, then we wouldn't have an economic "crisis" like is going on. That proves their lies completely.

  Last year, because of their corruption and takeover of government, they granted over a million green cards (that's just the legal insourcing, who knows how many million more off the books insourced people showed up to keep driving wages down), right in the middle of a mass unemployment situation with a lowballed 10% unemployment rate, and if you add in real part time workers and people finally off unemployment insurance, it is 17%, which is in the middle of "great depression" era numbers.

Outsourcing and insourcing, the double whammy plan to marginalize and destroy the middle class here so they can have their globalist master/serf society, with one percent owning everything eventually. That's what is going on.

Re:not always

[Runaway1956]

You, sir, want shadowstats.com

The real unemployment rates exceed 20%. Low figure would be ~22%, while my own figures would be closer to 30%.

Re:not always

[zogger]

Well, I am a full time ag worker, so I can speak on that a little,(I also live OK on less than ten grand a year) and the first rule there is you can't generalize too much, as it is such a varied "job". I've worked from subtropical citrus harvesting to sub arctic almost dairy farming, and it can be really different.

As to some aspects being seasonal, sure, and yes, people used to travel to do them, and also, we used to have it that people who only cared or needed a part time job could do them. We used to get by OK with just domestic part time help, before wall street started raping the profits away and the farmers had to look to wherever they could to cut corners.

And for some reason, this last generation or two...they don't seem to need part time jobs as much (very generally speaking). I hate to be a cranky old curmudgeon, but "back in the day" all kids worked part time. I am racking me pea brane here trying to think of *any* of my friends who didn't work a lot growing up, starting in young teen years or even earlier (I started at nine years old working part time, I mowed lawns and harvested fruit) For example, growing up I always worked every summer harvesting/working, then back to school in the fall, with sometimes work after school and on weekends. Off summer/fall season was leaf raking and then snow shoveling in the winter. I used to hand shovel driveways before catching the bus to school. How many kids do stuff like that now? A lot of housewives with kids at school worked with us on the farms as well sometimes, they would show up a little later, leave a little earlier, but every season, they would be back, and they were grateful for the extra cash. College kids working the summer, etc.

It's doable, honest work, and it could pay better, with only very marginal cost increases. Here's an example, an increase at the store/retail level of only five cents per entire chicken, if the poultry farmer was to receive that, it would double our net, and get it back to being profitable, and really make it easier for the owners to pay much better wages. Just a nickle.

About 40-50 years ago, farmers received close to 40% of the retail food products dollar, now it is 5-10%, and the high end there is rare, it is usually much lower, which has really impacted some of our "flyover" states drastically, such as Mississippi. I feel sorry for them ,it is about exactly like an example of old time colonialism, pure exploitation, with dismal wages and a perpetual bad economy, despite some of the hardest work, useful and necessary work, in the nastiest climate there is. They get exploited badly, their labor almost stolen and returned at pennies on the dollar, and people rank them because they need economic help. Blaming the victime mentality, seen it a lot too in political debates "blue states versus red states" etc. Nuts, they would be better off if they could just keep somewhat more of what they produce.

Ag could pay, we would have to severely restrict speculators access and profits though, and skew the laws back more toward the actual producers and not the middlemen and big cartel operators. That would bring it back to being doable and desirable for a lot more people, even just part time, and we wouldn't need as many "guest" workers, and maybe they could stay home and make something of their own nation instead.

Guest workers come here because where they come from their fatcats are even *worse*-almost unimaginable but true- and screw them over terribly. They don't come here because they really want to, it is driven by refugee/necessity aspects, they are fleeing where they are rather than jumping for joy to come here (worked with hundreds of them, so asked them about it, that is more their stance than not, get away from the local corruption and violence and severe badness)(example: worked with some Guatemalan Indians who fled their nation, because their bogus corporate fatcat army there-the technofeudalist elites' mercenaries- used them as live fire

Re:People, esp. the "currency conversion" crowd,

[RazorSharp]

You're right, there are a lot of U.S. workers that would like to make $9.00 per/hr. to produce goods which are sold in the U.S. but they can't because their potential job has been outsourced to the Chinese for $.60 per/hr. Not that I believe that $.60 buys you $9 worth of goods in China in the first place.

Re:Fact of living a decent life

[icebraining]

Yeah, you should buy a $40 mouse, with the difference of $20 going to the companies' profits.

Re:How do you define a 'fair wage'?

[Maxo-Texas]

Labor costs are about 15%.

So for your $10 mouse, giving them decent 10 hour days would cost you about an extra 50 cents.

Hmmm. 50 cents extra for a mouse, or work children like slaves.

Re:Relevance?

[FuckingNickName]

Nothing you do yourself is going to affect the world large scale.

Shouldn't this be followed with, "So you might as well kill yourself now"?

Recall the story of the boy who threw stranded animals from the sand into the sea. "You'll never save them all!" shouts the old cynic. "No, but I saved this one," he replies.

Also, people are better in the long run at following by example than following the words of hypocrites. This works starting with the most basic family unit, the family.

Some numbers for everyone

[poity]

I worked in a small city in China last year (Shaoxing - a leading textile manufacturing area south of Shanghai)
Exchange rate with USD is 6.8 at the moment.
So 0.65USD x 6.8 x 9hr/day = about ¥40 a day. Times 6 days a week is about ¥950 per month, which is typical.

Typical income for a local office worker is ¥1500 to ¥2000 per month, ¥800-1200 for a migrant or factory worker.
Compare that to a relative of mine who owns an export business in the city, he makes around $20000 per month (USD and 4 zeros) after deducting office wages, expenses, and bribes -- which are partially offset by the 13% tax return he gets as subsidy for his branch of export.
He's still a small player compared to the larger business owners in the city.

Some numbers on the cost of living (relevant as of february of this year):
Average apartment (the minimum quality that a city local would tolerate) - ¥1000
Shitty apartment (the min quality that a migrant worker would tolerate - bare concrete, at least 5 to a bathroom)- ¥500
Domestic rice - ¥4/kg bulk
Imported oatmeal - a little under ¥30/kg packaged
Domestic oatmeal - under ¥20/kg packaged
Cabbage - ¥1.5 per half kilo (1.1lbs)
Bokchoy - ¥3 per half kilo
Tomatoes - ¥3.5 per half kilo
Eggs - ¥3.5 per half kilo
Pork - ¥6 to ¥18 per half kilo depending on cut
KFC (the most popular fast food) - ¥6 per piece of fried chicken, ¥15 for sandwich combo meal with small drink and fries
Chinese-style fast food meal (cafeteria style food that office people get during lunch) - ¥12 for a hygienic place (maybe pass inspection if in the USA), ¥6 for a place that at least wipes the tables, ¥1.50 for rice and cabbage.
You typically have to buy your own health insurance, and even then a hospital checkup would cost ¥40 to ¥100.
City buses are ¥1, or ¥0.8 if you buy a pass.
Cheap cell phone plan is about ¥100/month

As ratios of monthly income, it's apparent that comfortable wages for the average citizen have a long way to go.

Microsoft, HP, Samsung, BB Foxconn, Acer, Logitech

[lp_bugman]

From one of pictures in the article:
"These teenagers work for the KYE factory in China, which manufactures computer mice and webcams for Microsoft, Hewlett Packard, Samsung, Best Buy, Foxconn, Acer, Logitech, and other US companies"
This proves what I keep saying. Now a days there is no difference, with brand you are buying. It's made by the same people (under pay kids in this case).
Same sloppy lavor and quality standards.
Sad..

Re:Relevance?

[FuckingNickName]

The whole point is that for the most part, one should accept this and move on. Accept that and by happy living your life the best way YOU can. That's a far cry from "just kill yourself now".

"Shut up and accept how the world is, just forget about caring and enjoy yourself," is to me pretty much equivalent to, "You might as well kill yourself now". That sort of soulless existence, making me nothing more than a trained monkey, is at odds with my desire to be all the things a human has the ability to be.

Also, if you get out of the nihilistic subculture of geeky 18-30 males, the world is full of idealistic and helpful humans working to help others' lot on a familial, urban or global scale. Your trinket-based approach to living sees the selfish as successful - and they are, if they are also clever and lucky - but it doesn't question the definition of success which leads to that conclusion. If all I have gained when I am 70 is 5 beautiful wives, two large houses, and the full range of Apple iProducts, I am no more evolved than a monkey.

Going afk.. thanks for the responses.

And?

[DaveV1.0]

How is this different from pretty much everything else manufactured in Southeast Asia? Everything you buy that is made in China is made by people who are treated a little better than slaves. The companies provide rooms at the factories for their employees, with 6 people per room, communal bathroom, and no kitchen facilities. The employees are charged rent for the rooms, even if they don't stay in the rooms.

Remember this the next time you are at Walmart, buying crap that has been made in China. It is cheap because the people who made it are being exploited.

Re:Work hours

[VendettaMF]

Bad examples still.
Milk is not a commonly used foodstuff here, and bread as you're thinking of it is purchased only by foreigners living here.

I can buy all I can eat in a restaurant for six yuan, and can eat for a week for 30.

nyet

[zogger]

It's not tinfoil hat, it is observing human nature. Once you have fatcats that are already mutil millionaires/billionaires, and they can easily buy anything they want, multiples, there's only one lust left, and that is dominance over other humans, a feudalistic outlook. That's what they want, that's how they live now, their policies support it, and it isn't accidental at all.

And it shows in the article, only evil people who want that sort of power treat employees that way, and the same mindset goes upstream from there. And at the tippy top, there you have people who regard endless wars as just profits central. If there is no legitimate war, by golly they will manufacture one, and they don't care a whit about bloodshed and pain and suffering. How evile can you get before it is acknowledged that it is in fact evil? How is that not a plan when they go way out of their way to do such things?

And that why all these fatcats love china and are building it up, while they try to destroy the US with our unique background of the sovereign individual with the government being subservient. They hate that, they like the older ways better with aristocrats in charge of everything and owning everything. The US middle class that got built up by the 60s was the antithesis to that, so it had to go, so they started making it go away. China is their posterboy dream society and nation, 1% corrupt controllers, and everyone else as serfs, and if you have enough money, you can do anything you want. Anything. Ya, once in awhile they might pop some minor fatcat, who possibly embarrassed them or didn't pay enough bribes upstream, etc...like in ancient times the Romans would chuck some fatcat to the lions for sport. They are evil, that's their nature. You don't get to the "top" like that without being psychopathic in some way.

Feudalism and the aristocracy never went away, they just changed clothing and titles around a little and come up with phony "elections", but it's the same old crap, just with new shiny tech around it. That's why I have been calling this trend to this sort of world and society as "technofeudalism".

Let's cut the crap...

[FuegoFuerte]

I know it's popular to bash Microsoft on Slashdot, but why don't we just title this "The Walmart Effect: American products made in Chinese sweatshops because Americans have become too damn cheap to pay for quality products produced by skilled labor under good working conditions."

Re:Work hours

[VendettaMF]

Expensive (by local standards) and low quality by western standards.
Which is why most low paying jobs include basic accommodation.
I'm paying 1500 yuan monthly for a small two room city-center apartment of high quality (by local standards). That's about $200 a month. It's a lot more than most Chinese people earn in a month, but as I said, it is city center, just off the main commercial district so my neighbors are a mix of moderately successful business owners and mistresses of even more successful rich types.

what you said

[zogger]

Sure, if it gets ultra bad wherever they are at some time, even with their tame armed lackey protectors, official badged or private, they go to their other mansion in nation x,y or z. They are internationalists, not particularly loyal to any nation or people, they just don't care, psychopathic. Other humans to them are *prey animals", they go to where the human hunting and exploitation is the easiest, and they have the most "legal" protection, as in, the local warlord/governmental goofball/some authority figure is in their pocket, etc. And that's what helos and business jets are for, just in case they need to flee someplace else. "Laws" mostly apply to serfs and slaves after all.