Slashdot Mirror


The Genius In Apple's Vertical Platform

Precision found a nice little piece of speculation on the real reason behind Apple's recent efforts to restrict app development to XCode. While the standard given reason is to kill competition from Flash and other stacks, this story speculates that the real reason has to do with the unusually large die size of the A4 processor inside the iPads. Worth a quick read.

26 of 432 comments (clear)

  1. Doesn't account for all the wording by Bill,+Shooter+of+Bul · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not only does Apple restrict you to compiling your code in c, c++,objective c with the iphone sdk, they prohibit any code that was not originally written in one of those languages. The article would make sense, if the only restriction Apple had in place was that they code be compiled by the iphone sdk. That is not the case, as far as I know.

    --
    Well.. maybe. Or Maybe not. But Definitely not sort of.
    1. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by MrHanky · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, the article doesn't make sense at all. Why assume the A4 is a dual-core PowerPC when it's built for an OS that restricts the use of multitasking? It's almost like suggesting using four wheel drive on a motorcycle. This writer is just a total and utter wanker, predicting 50% speed increases for reasons founded in pure fantasy. Bullshit story.

    2. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by marcansoft · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The guy who wrote the article is clueless.

      These ridiculous claims remind me of that "tapionvslink" guy who swears that the Wii has a GPGPU with programmable shaders and twice the RAM and all sorts of things that the homebrew community knows are bullshit, just because he did some broken math on die sizes. He still maintains that we're all ignorant and just haven't figured out what real Wii games are doing with the GPU. Riiight.

      Seriously, if the iPad were PowerPC, don't you think we'd know by now, considering it's been jailbroken? Chipworks also tore down the chip and found nothing unusual; it's just another mobile ARM. Also, no one in their right mind would ever use a CPU emulator on a mobile platform OS. It's one of the best ways to completely nuke your battery life, not to mention performance. It's a cute theory, but it's so thoroughly impossible it's not even funny.

    3. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Thud457 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Dude, the phrase "final solution" in regards to anything related to Jobs makes me very nervous. Please don't do that again.

      --

      the preceding comment is my own and in no way reflects the opinion of the Joint Chiefs of Staff

    4. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Albanach · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Even if the processor is multicore it's still not a 6 core Xeon so they can't just waste CPU time.

      Yes, I hated the way I could only run one application at a time on my Pentium 3 desktop.

      Seriously now, we've been multitasking for a very long time with /single core CPUs. It's a pretty poor excuse to say .we're taking out time to do it right'

    5. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Marcika · · Score: 5, Funny

      Wow. That was the most gentile Godwin-ing of a discussion I've ever seen. :)

      Interesting choice of words. ;-)

    6. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by hattig · · Score: 4, Informative

      The article is dreamy bullshit, but not for what you write about multitasking (especially since OS4 will provide for it, and designing hardware to cope with future demands is sensible).

      The performance analysis shows the product's CPU power matches a 1GHz Cortex A8, compared with scaling up from the 600MHz A8 in the 3GS.

      The article links to the Chipworks A4 die dissection, and the product code which is just a higher version of the 3GS product code. That certainly doesn't fit in with putting in a PowerPC core instead of the ARM core in the previous product, never mind fitting the PowerPC core to the ARM-specific internal bus and peripherals. The code name would be completely different. If there's anything that can be guaranteed, it is that the A4 utilised an ARM core.

      The Apple A4 is a 45nm version of the 3GS Samsung CPU, rebranded by Apple (because they bought Intrinsity, who developed/enhanced/tweaked the Samsung product originally). The extra transistors are accounted for by having a wider memory bus, probably more L2 cache, and maybe higher performance graphics.

      Also the guy assumed perfect transistor scaling, which doesn't happen.

    7. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Hal_Porter · · Score: 4, Interesting

      My Asus 1005HA can manage 9 hours of battery life. The newer, Pineview based 1005PE does even better.

      http://www.engadget.com/2009/12/21/asus-eee-pc-1005pe-review/

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    8. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Carewolf · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Giant 15.4" old-school dual-core Thinkpad: Battery time: infinite..

      Reason: Exchangable batteries ;) No apple product will ever come anywhere close, because they are intentionally cripled.

      PS. With traveling battery: 8hours of heavy use, this is added to the standard 4.5h on the standard battery.

    9. Re:Doesn't account for all the wording by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      the iPad has 10-12 hours of on in heavy use time. Everything else is an epic fail in comparison. I'd gladly give up features to get that kind of battery life from a windows tablet or a netbook.

      Asus netbooks have 10+ hours of battery life doing the things that are "heavy use" on the iPad (which are very light use on the netbook's scale).

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  2. Steve Jobs is worse than Hitler! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    I don't care if Apple has reasons for this or not. I don't like Apple, so that means they're a monopoly just like Microsoft, and should be required to do whatever any other company wants cause it's in the constitution.

    Also, there's a company in Germany that's gonna make a competing product that will blow the iPad out of the water cause it'll be open and run Flash and OpenOffice and has higher ghz on the processor and more memory and it's the hardware specs that make the difference, and I know everything, and the market should decide everything and Apple doesn't have the right to do anything to try to protect their investment in the iPhone OS as a platform cause I say so.

    Did I mention they're an evil monopoly? And that Steve Jobs is worse than Hitler, cause he's got a reality distortion field and makes people pay the Apple tax?

    1. Re:Steve Jobs is worse than Hitler! by mr_mischief · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not only is there plenty of competition in the smartphone market, but RIM is still the undisputed leader in the US by about 16 percent. Google more than doubled its small installed base (from 2.5% to 5.2%) between September and December. The analysis firm comScore has a press release covering third-quarter 2009 cell phone growth patterns.

      Worldwide, Symbian kicks everyone's ass at 47% for the year of 2009 (as a platform), but Nokia "only" sold 39% in the third quarter (as a hardware solution.

      The handset data vs. platform data is interesting, especially considering that by listing handset manufacturers Apple news sites completely avoid mentioning Google and Android. Some of the HTC, Samsung, and "others" would be listed as Windows Mobile and some would be Android or Maemo/Meego, obviously.

      Despite all the hype about the iPhone, it's still only a quarter of the US market and 16% of the worldwide market from the latest data I could find.

  3. First post! by cpotoso · · Score: 5, Informative
    He! He!

    I think the article is absolute nonsense. The A4 has been "disassembled" and it is consistent with an ARM single core.

  4. Why can't MS do this? by 0100010001010011 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Not the vertical integration, but the simple "Ok you're Applications are compatible now"

    Apple has moved from 68k to PPC to OS X to Intel to ARM to (proposed) POWER) for both 32/64 bit and all it took in those last steps was flag in the compiler.

    68k emulation in PPC was decent. Classic mode worked for most applications and Rosetta was as seamless as it gets. I understand that Microsoft has a ton of backwards compatibility they need to maintain, but if a company the fraction of your size can do it, why can't you?

    Yes "FAT" Binaries are larger, but given how cheap HD space is, it's not too much of a concern of mine. (I gained more space deleting other languages). But to have a single, double clickable .app that runs on 4 platforms (PPC, Intel / 32, 64bit), naively.

    Side note, and legitimate question, does Linux do fat binaries? Can I compile something that runs on my AMD64 and ARM machines and put it on a thumb drive?

  5. Apple Fanbois by nhtshot · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Disclosure: I'm writing this from a Mac. I like my Macs. I like Apple. I'm not delusional like this guy.

    If you didn't RTFA, there's no need. It's just some Apple fanboi trying to find genius and conspiracy where there isn't any.

    Are you serious? Constricting developers because you're going to change the platform? Really? I wonder if the article author even believes this crap.

    Emulating a cpu you could just as easily install for real? Never mind going back to an architecture (POWER) that you've already EOL and that is wholly unsuited for the platform (high power consumption, high heat output).

    He's right that Apple is a story in vertical integration. They're doing it the same way Rockefeller did. They want to control the entire platform.

  6. Re:Interesting, but... by carlhaagen · · Score: 5, Insightful

    What is not speculation is the debate over whether or not the A4 is an ARM core: it *is* an ARM core. Just disassembling the output shows it at once. It also takes an idiot to believe Apple would spend even more time writing an ARM emulator core for PowerPC just to make sure their iPad runs software compiled with the iPhone SDK. This isn't another case of PowerPC->Intel switch. Geez.

  7. doesn't consider translation; argument is invalid by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article is interesting, but incorrect.

    Converting from to objective-C is fine for the purposes he's talking about (allowing the compiler to build to 'native', where 'native' can change over time.) If you have a language that is 1:1 with C/ObjC and easily translated (there are many), then this argument is entirely moot.

    (Further, its not just Flash we're talkin gabout.. BASIC, assembler, python, etc, are all impacted and outlawed (again.)) Heck, numerous games use ARM asm, which is now outlawed .. the ASM is to provide superior performance, as Xcode (gcc) is decent compiler, but no match for hand tooled assembly in 'just the right places'. (Don't argue this; compiles are great, but talk to emulation authors for ARM devices about dropping in a few lines of ASM :)

    So no, its not really about native compilation speed. Its about blocking non-Apple tools, with the pretend reason that Apple makes the best tools.

  8. Re:Interesting, but... by ircmaxell · · Score: 5, Informative

    It would make sense... If it wasn't filled with nonsense. The larger die? It's because the system RAM is built into the chip. Not because it's running some new dual core design. Apple banned writing in another language. Not compiling using anything but XCode. Some of the converters out there will covert down to Objective-C and then compile them with XCode. With his speculation in the article, that should be fine (because it's compiling with their compiler, and should be the exact same as if written in O-C in the first place), but it's banned. I do agree that it is well written. But well reasoned? It starts with a pair of flawed premises, and then makes some pretty good reasoning based on them. But all of that reasoning is inherently flawed due to the flawed premise.

    What bothers me, is that people who don't know any better will read this article and think "Woah, cool! They are doing something smart!" when it's all really unjustified based on his reasoning (I'm not going to comment on if it really is smart or not)...

    --
    If a man isn't willing to take some risk for his opinions, either his opinions are no good or he's no good
  9. "WTF" moment by rodrigoandrade · · Score: 4, Informative

    > Why assume the A4 is a dual-core PowerPC when it's built for an OS that restricts the use of multitasking?

    "WTF" quote of the day. What does dual-core have to do with multitasking??????????????? Windows did multitasking long before dual core chips existed.

    On a related note, the iPhone DOES multitasking; it just doesn't let the USER multitask. How do you suppose an incoming call gets through while you´re listening to music?

    1. Re:"WTF" moment by Scrameustache · · Score: 5, Funny

      > Why assume the A4 is a dual-core PowerPC when it's built for an OS that restricts the use of multitasking?

      "WTF" quote of the day. What does dual-core have to do with multitasking??????????????? Windows did multitasking long before dual core chips existed.

      On a related note, the iPhone DOES multitasking; it just doesn't let the USER multitask. How do you suppose an incoming call gets through while you´re listening to music?

      And MacOS did multitasking before Windows!

      (Yay, the mid-90s flamewar subjects are back!)

      --

      You can't take the sky from me...

  10. It's all about platform lock in. by dc29A · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Why does everyone think this has anything to do with technical issues? This is all about lock in, 100% pure business move.

    Apple doesn't want cross compilers because that makes the iPhone just another smartphone because everyone and their dogs will be writing code for smartphones, not iPhones exclusively. Apple has to maintain the image of the iPhone to be unique, not just the 'PC' of smartphones. If cross compiling is allowed, and a person is fed up with the iPhone, nothing stops him/her/it to switch to a WM7, RIM or Android phone. Why? Because the software is probably available on those systems. Now, if some developers will stay iPhone exclusive because of the hassle of maintaining two codebases (One CS5 cross compilable and one Apple approved), people will have harder time to migrate to other platforms because their precious software only runs on iPhone OS. Why don't people switch to Linux en masse? MS Office + DirectX. Apple wants the exact same platform lock in for smarphones as the one Microsoft has achieved for PCs.

    Führer Jobs is shit scared of Android, that's why the new draconian developer restrictions (and HTC patent suits), not because some [insert technical excuse here]. Fortunately or unfortunately (depending on your point of view) Adobe is going to be collateral damage unless Flash on Android/ChromeOS takes off heavily. Jobs wants to stop the Android momentum at all cost, because if he doesn't, iPhone will be the 'Mac' and Android will be the 'PC'.

    Disclosure: I have an iPhone 3GS.

    1. Re:It's all about platform lock in. by Mr+Bubble · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I just blew coffee out of my nose when you said Jobs is shit-scared of Android. First of all, I don't think Jobs is shit-scared of anything. Secondly, Android will never have more than 30% of the market, it's just going to be too fragmented of an offering with too many different hardware specs and too much control ceded to the carriers over os updates and app stores.

      But the main point is that Apple does not want to fill their platform up with mediocre apps written to support the lowest common denominator feature set and UI conventions. Apple users have put up with shit software for years from the likes of Adobe and other vendors who wished the Mac would just go away while they concentrated on Windows. Jobs is demanding excellent software for an excellent device - one that is programmed and compiled in a way that utilizes the OS frameworks to their fullest.

      And, more importantly, while the author's facts are wrong, the idea of the post is correct. If jobs allows another company to control the development trajectories of, say, even 10% of the apps on the store, Apple can no longer plan their product change and enhancement cycles around their own timeline - they will have to wait until companies like Adobe are ready to change their tools - and, history has proven that it can be a very long wait.

      --
      "The world is a construct of forceful imagination. Those who don't know walk around in the reailties of those who do"
  11. Wow by codeButcher · · Score: 5, Funny

    A4??? That IS really big for a die size. But why oh why not Legal, since Apple is American?

    --
    Free, as in your money being freed from the confines of your account.
  12. Comment removed by account_deleted · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Comment removed based on user account deletion

  13. My God, when will it end??? by mswhippingboy · · Score: 4, Funny
    FTFA...

    people don’t see the true genius behind Steve Job’s vision and moves.

    Another day, another worship piece for Jobs. Could he be the Maitreya after all? http://www.share-international.org/maitreya/Ma_main.htm

    --
    Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is the headlight of an oncoming train.
  14. Another Apple worship piece by recoiledsnake · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If this is indeed the case, then iPhone OS 4.0 would bring incredible speed improvements to the iPad, since it would no longer run applications on an ARM processor emulator. Can you imagine if OS 4.0 improved the iPad’s speed by 50% on day 1? Apple would be heralded as a software God. But in order for these speed improvements to be realized, apps would need to be written in objective C—which is exactly what Apple is now telling developers to do.

    The writer doesn't realize that Adobe/MonoTouch were making a cross compiler from ActionScript/C# to Objective-C. So any improvements made to XCode will be available to those Apps too and if regular Apps are speeded up by 50%, so would the CS5 and MonoTouch Apps.

    Posters below have already explained what a bunch of crock the speculation that the processor is actually a Power CPU is. Anyway what can you expect from a blind fanboy who writes stuff like:

    Apple's DNA in this area is untouchable, helping it to innovate at the confluence of software and hardware.

    I find it fascinating that Apple has been so good at diverting attention to the Flash argument, that people don’t see the true genius behind Steve Job’s vision and moves. Apple is setting the stage to become one of the biggest winners in the storied history of vertically integrated companies.

    Huh? Wtf?

    Why is this crap posted on Slashdot anyway?

    --
    This space for rent.