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Colleague Comes Forward To Defend Anthrax Suspect

Posted by kdawson on from the take-a-deep-breath dept.

Hugh Pickens writes "The NY Times writes about Henry S. Heine, a former Army microbiologist who worked for years with Bruce E. Ivins, whom the FBI has blamed for the anthrax letter attacks that killed five people in 2001. Heine told a 16-member National Academy of Sciences panel reviewing the FBI's scientific work on the investigation that he believes it is impossible that the deadly spores could have been produced undetected in Ivins's laboratory, as the FBI asserts. Heine told the panel that producing the quantity of spores in the letters would have taken at least a year of intensive work using the equipment at the army lab, an effort that would not have escaped colleagues' notice. Lab technicians who worked closely with Ivins have told Heine they saw no such work. Heine adds that, in addition, the biological containment measures where Ivins worked were inadequate to prevent the spores from floating out of the laboratory into animal cages and offices. 'You'd have had dead animals or dead people.' Asked why he is speaking out now, almost two years after Ivins's suicide, Heine says that Army officials had prohibited comment on the case, silencing him until he left the government laboratory. Although Heine does not dispute that there was a genetic link between the spores in the letters and the anthrax in Ivins's flask, Heine says samples from the flask were widely shared. 'Whoever did this is still running around out there. I truly believe that.'"

36 of 164 comments (clear)

  1. Anthrax... by TrisexualPuppy · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...is generally not that deadly. My uncle used to deal with cattle with black leg all the time. This story is ONCE AGAIN blown out of proportion--thanks, FBI.

    1. Re:Anthrax... by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Informative

      ...is generally not that deadly. My uncle used to deal with cattle with black leg all the time. This story is ONCE AGAIN blown out of proportion--thanks, FBI.

      Depends. I'm not a microbiologist but you know there are different strains (89 I think) of anthrax and it is delivered many different ways. I believe the concern here is spore anthrax or aerosol anthrax which is probably a bit more problematic than black leg. If you think it isn't deadly, there are about a hundred graves in Russia you could visit for an interview.

      --
      My work here is dung.
    2. Re:Anthrax... by Beelzebud · · Score: 3, Informative

      That stuff your uncle used to deal with wasn't a weaponized aerosol either. I'm sure the people that died from the anthrax attack would take issue with your statement about it being blown out of proportion.

    3. Re:Anthrax... by maxume · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sure they would. But the other 299,999,950 of us need to decide if such attacks warrant as much attention as, say, car accidents.

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
    4. Re:Anthrax... by thms · · Score: 3, Informative

      That stuff your uncle used to deal with wasn't a weaponized aerosol either.

      Even a very dedicated and professional group couldn't properly weaponize anthrax: The Japanese Aum sect, which later opted for sarin gas to attack the Tokio Subway, tried that twice and didn't kill anyone with it.

    5. Re:Anthrax... by Beelzebud · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Who in the hell said it was an epidemic? It was a targeted attack, and people died at the places it was sent.

      Who said you should spend your time worrying about it?

    6. Re:Anthrax... by dave562 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The "blown out of proportion" aspect of the story was the "threat of terrorism". The anthrax attacks hit the Capitol at the same time legislators were being pressured to pass the PATRIOT Act. The anthrax attacks delivered the unspoken message to our representatives that "nobody is safe from terrorists".

    7. Re:Anthrax... by X0563511 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I'm pretty sure "this guy" is more qualified than you to make the call.

      --
      For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
    8. Re:Anthrax... by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The anthrax attacks hit the Capitol at the same time legislators were being pressured to pass the PATRIOT Act. The anthrax attacks delivered the unspoken message to our representatives that "nobody is safe from terrorists".

      I'm not saying that Vice President Cheney was involved in any way, but you've got to admit that his agenda, formed long before September of 2001, got a big boost from the attacks.

      Obviously though, he's far too nice of a guy to ever do anything underhanded.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    9. Re:Anthrax... by RiddleofSteel · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Exactly. These were used on us by our own military to push through the Patriot act. That poor guy was used as the scape goat. I know people love to call these conspiracy theorists a bunch of wackjobs but it seems more and more like we are the idiots for sticking our head in the sands while this goes on all around us.

    10. Re:Anthrax... by neurovish · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Anthrax found in the letters was allowed to float around in the air in crowded places, too. How many people died?

      This guy is giving second-hand and speculative "evidence", and it's not holding up to scrutiny.

      Enough to be noticed.

  2. Silence != Truth by WrongSizeGlass · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Army officials had prohibited comment on the case, silencing him until he left the government laboratory.

    I'm sure he told the Army & FBI about this. Sounds like anthrax killed a scapegoat named Bruce E. Ivins to me.

    1. Re:Silence != Truth by AndersOSU · · Score: 4, Interesting

      This story never made sense.

      The way I see it there are three possibilities. When the anthrax events were taking place, you'll recall that this was high-grade weaponized anthrax containing silica, that indicates a high level of technical competence. So that leads to the first possibility, a sufficiently competent person can, on their own, weaponize anthrax from a culture. This, to me, is the most frightening, but also the least likely possibility. If one person could do it, someone else would have. I don't doubt that there are sufficiently motivated and financed terror groups who would have repeated the procedure if this were possible. This stuff was supposedly (although there are contradictory statements) better than the soviet weaponized anthrax.

      The second possibility is that Ivins had nothing to do with this, except possibly supplying the culture to a third party - a third party who stopped the attacks for some unknown reason.

      The third - and this is where I put on my tinfoil hat - is that the US maintains stores of weapons grade anthrax in contradiction to our biological warfare treaty obligations that someone, probably Ivins, pilfered.

    2. Re:Silence != Truth by b4upoo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It really makes me wonder if overzealous nuts in the Bush regime could have caused anthrax to be let lose to justify our military actions. I have no trust at all after things like WaterGate and the arms for drugs crap that went on under republican administrations.

    3. Re:Silence != Truth by jdev · · Score: 3, Interesting

      you'll recall that this was high-grade weaponized anthrax containing silica, that indicates a high level of technical competence

      There was a lot of press initially about the anthrax being high end weapons grade with silica. The truth is, the initial reports of silica are very dubious. That highlights one of the issues in a case like this - you don't even know what basic facts to believe. Almost all of the evidence against Ivins is circumstantial and claims by the government haven't always held up.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2001_anthrax_attacks#Silicon_content_too_high

    4. Re:Silence != Truth by AndersOSU · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd agree, but I'd think if we were running a covert bio-weapons program there'd be pretty tight controls on it - tight enough that if some got mailed to a congressman we'd get the right guy the first time.

      This whole thing stinks, but I still don't buy the even more conspiratorial we did it to pass the patriot act - does anyone really believe that a few people getting sick on September 20th 2001 is the real impetus behind patriot?

    5. Re:Silence != Truth by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Then name something the Democratic presidents did that they obviously knew about. Either Reagan or Bush (likely both) knew about the illegal sale of arms to provide illegal funding for revolutionaries. Nixon actively worked to cover up a felony. Clinton covered up a blow job. Compare and contrast. If anything big was missing from that list, please list it.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
    6. Re:Silence != Truth by TimurLeng · · Score: 2, Interesting

      quote: The third - and this is where I put on my tinfoil hat - is that the US maintains stores of weapons grade anthrax in contradiction to our biological warfare treaty obligations that someone, probably Ivins, pilfered.
      ------------------
      Spot on! I think that is exactly what could have happened, as all else just doesn't make any sense.
      Silly conspiracy theories like "Dick Cheney" did it, overlook the lynching party that would have happened on Capitol Hill, would that have ever come out.
      Its not like those lawmakers would have appreciated attempts to kill them in one of the most gruesome manners imaginable.

      But the US secretly hidding that stuff and then someone getting his hands on it for abusive purposes, would explain why they would be covering it up - and even why Obama also would not announce the truth about it now.
      If it would have been only "evil Bush" people that did it, it would give the Dems the ammo they'd need to get rid of Rep competition for decades to come.

      But imagine the scandal of US presidents since Jimmy Carter & Ronald Reagan secretly hidding tons of that stuff underground. The US could never, ever again credibly demand that rogue regimes do not engage in Biological warfare research.

      This way even the most liberal regime in DC would have to hide such truths, or they'd loose all credibility on WMD issues.

      --
      Free will is the illusion that our wits could compensate for our brain's faulty circuitry.
  3. suicide? by genican1 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Nobody OD's on Tylenol in order to commit suicide. It's too ugly and painful. There are much quicker ways.

    1. Re:suicide? by logjon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point here being that as a biologist he would have a clue what kind of pain he was really in for in an APAP-induced liver failure death.

      --
      The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
      Only fools would take it as fact.
    2. Re:suicide? by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Do you have any idea how little codeine is in those pills? Even downing more than enough for the APA to kill you wouldn't result in significant pain reduction. It wouldn't do squat to alleviate the pain of liver failure.

      As logion said, codeine is a joke. Tylenol with codeine is what they hand out when people think they need something stronger than tylenol, but they don't. If they actually need something stronger than tylenol, they will get something with oxycodone in it.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
  4. No kidding. by flitty · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And no one who was paying attention to the original details of the story are surprised.

    --
    Whether or not there is some sort of god, I'm not supposed to say/god is a word and the argument ends there-Smog
  5. Can you say inside job? by Beelzebud · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So a strain of Anthrax, developed by the US Military, get's mailed to a Democratic senator, and a high profile journalist, about a month after 9/11. After years of "investigating" they blame a dead guy who can't defend himself.

    This is a case that will never be solved because whoever it was in the government that did it, has covered their tracks.

    1. Re:Can you say inside job? by stewbacca · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They blamed the dead guy before he killed himself.

    2. Re:Can you say inside job? by geekoid · · Score: 3, Informative

      So a strain of Anthrax, developed by the US Military,

      No.
      A strain of Anthrax with similar genetic code as one being developed by the military.

      The security around the anthrax at that time wasn't what anyone would call 'high'.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:Can you say inside job? by AK+Marc · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They blamed a bunch of people. The suspicions alone ruined people's lives. He was depressed over his life being ruined, and killed himself. He was never charged. He was never formally accused. He had his life ruined because he worked with something related to what was used, and killed himself. So, suspecting the real end was the US military (either directly doing the acts, or just having the weaponized anthrax around to be stolen, in violation of treaties), everyone in the government was happy to publicly blame the dead guy and close the case.

      No one was ever charged, and they did not then, nor now, have enough to "prove" (meaning get a conviction) anyone did it. They just got a break when there was a suicide (whether real or arranged) and closed the case.

      --
      Learn to love Alaska
  6. The Wrong Man - Hatfill by Jainith · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Atlantic has a really interesting article about the FBI's multi-year investigation of Stephen Hatfill for the same crime.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2010/04/the-wrong-man/8019

  7. That's two... by Manip · · Score: 4, Informative

    So that is two men the US Government accused of the Anthrax attacks, one of which killed himself and the second almost did. Neither with any real evidence other than vague coincidences. Just goes to show that when the pressure to solve an investigation goes to such extremes mistakes are bound to happen.

    I think we should ask about the state's method. In one case they intentionally harassed a suspect by releasing his name to the media, conducting multiple searches, and following him around 24/7 and even having local law enforcement arrest him multiple times on silly charges.

    In any other country that has some kind of independent police watchdog you would have consequences but in the US where law enforcement seem to be above the law and "investigate" (ha ha) themselves they just get worse and worse year after year.

    1. Re:That's two... by JamesPr · · Score: 2, Funny

      Government jobs not only have poor pay in comparison to industry, they can kill you too!

    2. Re:That's two... by DaleSwanson · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What countries have an independent police watchdog? I'd like to read how they are organized and how successful they are.

  8. Re:tylenol + codeine by logjon · · Score: 2

    Not a particularly poweful opiate. Not enough to cause death in the doses found in Tylenol with codeine. The APAP is what got him.

    --
    The stories and info posted here are artistic works of fiction and falsehood.
    Only fools would take it as fact.
  9. Army investigation was botched by slashdot_commentator · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Everyone is assuming that all that weaponized anthrax came from the lab by its genetic makeup. Its possible only a sample was taken, and "mass produced" elsewhere. Yeah, it takes "special equipment", but its not like you need nuclear tools or there's only 7 machines in the world like it. Like the Kennedy assassination, and 9/11, we're never going to get the complete truth out of this.

    --
    There is no America. There is no democracy. There is only IBM and AT&T and DuPont, Dow, General Electric, and Exxon
  10. Glenn Greenwald by chainLynx · · Score: 3, Informative

    Glenn Greenwald has been writing about the anthrax issue for a while... check him out: http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax and http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2009/03/04/anthrax/index.html and http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2008/08/04/anthrax/ and http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_greenwald/2007/04/09/abc_anthrax/index.html for starters

  11. They destroyed Hatfill by DebateG · · Score: 4, Informative

    The Atlantic magazine just published a really eye-opening article on Steven Hatfill, the FBI's first suspect. It is very clear from the article that the FBI was hell-bent on finding a perpetrator of the crime even in the absence of any solid evidence. It's an interesting and frightening read about how the FBI could completely destroy your job, your friends, your day-to-day life, and your family if they falsely accuse you of a crime.

  12. Everyone says their friend is innocent by clay_shooter · · Score: 2, Insightful

    How often do folks come forward to say that they can't imagine that their associate/friend/neighbor/spouse couldn't have done the crime. Sometimes they're right and their wrong.

  13. Re:this story is made for paranoid schizophrenics by UnknowingFool · · Score: 4, Insightful

    No it screams government incompetence. Someone sent the samples. The FBI jumped to conclusions and harassed a man to death that they thought was a suspect.

    It's not the first time. Remember Richard Jewell? After he saved countless lives by noticing a suspicious backpack and evacuating the area around it in Centennial Olympic Park, he was first hailed as a hero. The FBI investigated him for no other reason than he fit the profile of a lone bomber despite having no background with bomb making. What's worse is that he FBI leaked that he was a suspect. After a trial in the media and having all his possessions thoroughly search by the FBI, it wasn't until months later that a US Attorney (and not the FBI) declared he was no longer a suspect. Years later Eric Rudolph admitted he planted the bombs.

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.