Steve Jobs Publishes Some "Thoughts On Flash"

teh31337one writes "Steve Jobs just posted an open letter of sorts explaining Apple's position on Flash, going back to his company's long history with Adobe and expounding upon six main points of why he thinks Flash is wrong for mobile devices. HTML5 naturally comes up, along with a few reasons you might not expect. He concludes in saying that 'Flash was created during the PC era — for PCs and mice.'" Tacky that his first point is that Flash is proprietary, when Apple restricts the apps that can be installed on the phone. Pot, meet kettle.

Comments

proprietary and apple

[sopssa]

Tacky that his first point is that Flash is proprietary, when Apple restricts the apps that can be installed on the phone. Pot, meet kettle.

Exactly, and the software/iPhone is not only proprietary, but actually restricted too. It's even worse than just proprietary software.

- Open source: Nobody restricts where you can install the application, and you get the source code too -- the best situation.
- Proprierary software: You dont get the source code, but nobody is restricting where or if you can install it, as long as its freeware or you have paid for it.
- Apple: Not only will you not get the source code and in most cases you have to pay for it, Apple is in total control what applications the user is allowed to install. They dont even give you the option to decide yourself.

If you want to sell your software in App Store, you are not allowed to redistribute the source code or your app outside of it.

While certainly true, making a comment about Flash being proprietary is just hypocrisy and at the same time hilarious from Steve Jobs and Apple.

Re:proprietary and apple

[MBCook]

But he's not denying Flash apps in the app store because they're not open while being closed himself. That would be hypocritical.

The real reason is the last one he gives: stuff made through Flash is made to the lowest common denominator between mobile platforms. That's why people want to use Flash to write things: multiple platforms. They'll have to wait for Flash to support newNeatFeatureX before they can use it, and Steve doesn't want that.

The other points (like openness) are there to rebut Adobe's "We're open, everywhere, and necessary" argument. They're not open the way HTML/JS/CSS is. Remember you can make anything you want for the iPhone, no matter how pornographic, if you make it via the web. It's only applications that get restricted. The web is open to anything.

Re:proprietary and apple

[sqlrob]

- Proprierary software: You dont get the source code, but nobody is restricting where or if you can install it, as long as its freeware or you have paid for it.

Ubisoft would like a word with you

Re:proprietary and apple

[bondsbw]

It's even worse than just proprietary software.

It depends on your definition of worse. Apple may be overly controlling, but it seems to work well for them and their target market. Don't you remember how fast the iPhone grew and how it changed the world of smartphones?

My guess is that you don't fit perfectly in their target market. I don't see how that would make them "bad". It just means that they have chosen the best path for growing their business and company. You are still perfectly free to say "F--- you, Apple!" and go find a Droid, Pre, Blackberry, W7 Phone, etc.

Re:proprietary and apple

[UnknowingFool]

I suppose you didn't read Steve Job's words because in the very next paragraph he writes:

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open.

Steve is making this distinction: apps can be proprietary, web standards should not be. Text is open while Word, NotePad, TextPad, AppleWorks, etc. are not open. That's his point.

Apple: Not only will you not get the source code and in most cases you have to pay for it, Apple is in total control what applications the user is allowed to install. They dont even give you the option to decide yourself.

This is true of iPhone SDK. This is not true of Apple in general. Darwin, CUPS, and WebKit are all open source. Apple also distributes for free the other open source code it uses like their version of bash, BIND, etc.

Re:proprietary and apple

[catbutt]

I don't see it as hypocricy. Flash being closed is a problem not simply because it is closed, but it is closed to Apple. If it doesn't work the way Apple wants it to, they can't do anything about it. If Apple's own closed stuff doesn't work as they wish, they can do something about it because it is, obviously, not closed to Apple.

Whether or not you agree with their business decision to not allow closed things from other companies on their devices, I don't see how you can call that hypocrisy, especially since he specifically mentions that many things from Apple are indeed closed.

Re:proprietary and apple

[Eighty7]

"Too bad they can't both lose"

-Henry Kissinger on the iran-iraq war

Re:proprietary and apple

[nosfucious]

You know, I'm actually ok with that.

Nobody's holding a gun to your head, making you buy it.

Yes, it is proprietory. No, my PCs run linux. There are alternatives phone and PDAs out there which are free.

Linux on my workstations does the job I want. Apple on my PDA does the job I want. There isn't a piece of data on it that isn't hosted somewhere else. There is a place for Open source, and closed source (and open and closed platforms).

Re:proprietary and apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I see this all the time, and every time I read it I just think. "So what?"

Why do people insist on saying that Apple should sell this or that, or do something this way or that way - as if its a statement of fact?

The great thing about freedom is it applies to everyone, Apple are free to sell whatever they like. You are free to do with that thing whatever you like.

As a manufacturer, retailer, Apple have manufactured goods and provided them for sale. So long as those goods are fit for purpose (and I think that purpose is well defined, and does not include any of the desired features that the open-source evangelists keep demanding) then your purchase is bound by simple contract of sale.

It is only if you wish to use the additional services that are available to you that you need consider conditions that regulate those services, and rightly so.

Why as a business, or individual, should I provide a service to you under terms which you dictate? That sounds like a tender contract process. You are welcome, I am sure, to invite Apple to tender for a contract under which they will provide to you some hardware and such services as you may desire. They are free to decline your invitation.

I am not against open source, far from it. The business I run is based around software that I develop, and it is licensed under the GPL. In the current circumstances it suits me to do so. In other circumstances it may not. Sometimes open-source is just not appropriate.

Really, get a HTC or a droid or whatever else, nobody minds. Just quit whining about how the iPhone isn't what you want its so tedious.

Re:proprietary and apple

[virgilp]

Well, but SWF format is open, did you know that? You're free to do your own player today. In fact some people are trying now to run SWF files in HTML5 (effectively a player made using HTML5 technologies - see http://paulirish.com/work/gordon/demos/ )
So your analogy is backfiring... if "text is open whyle AppleWorks is not", Adobe can say the very same thing: "SWF is open format, Flex SDK is open source, only Flash Player and Flash Pro are not".
As for Webkit being open-source.... it's the engine of Safari, right? Safari is not. open-source, right?
Now let's see... the engine of Flash Player is Tamarin. Flash Player is not open-source, but Tamarin itself *IS*.

What a surprise.... guess Adobe is just as open (scratch that, sorry, it's much more open... they don't restrict what you can and cannot run on their platform).

Re:proprietary and apple

[node 3]

He is protesting that Flash is pushing a closed standard when he is the biggest pusher of closed standards on the planet.

Microsoft is. Apple is likely the largest proponent of open standards and open source, outside of primarily open source companies and organizations, on the planet.

So are the vast majority of the media he pushes in his store.

Interesting. Since all of the music on the iTunes Store is non-DRM, you mean "closed" as in "copyrighted"? Or are you just plain wrong?

While it is true that he recently recanted on music, there's still a lot of legacy music out there
that is trapped in DRM and is essentially being held hostage. Sure, Apple customers can cough over
a ransom but they really shouldn't have to.

I see, just plain wrong. In other words, situation normal.

Adding DRM to an open standard makes it a closed standard.

No it doesn't. The term Open Standard does not mean what you seem to think it means.

Steve's binary standards are under his thumb. That's kind of the whole point of him trying to ban
any sort of intermediate programming layer. He's not content to trap customers on his devices, he
also wants to make sure that programmers are too.

If you'd read his letter (I know, that's asking a lot), you'd see that he's not trying to "trap" customers or developers (it's amazing how insanely paranoid some slashdotters are). It's because, as outlined in his letter, and as pointed out to you by the non-mad among us, he wants the iPhone OS devices to provide the best user experience Apple can create. That's how Apple tries to sell their products, by actually making them better than the competition. Yeah, I know, crazy concept right?

By allowing Flash-developed apps on the iPhone, Apple couldn't just improve the iPhone OS and have those advances widely and quickly taken advantage of. Many developers would also have to wait for Adobe to support those new features, which they may never do. This negates one of the biggest competitive advantages that Apple has--their superior operating systems.

Now, you may not agree that Apple has the most superior mobile operating system (after all, it would be uncharacteristic of you to actually be right about something like this), but Apple sure thinks they do, and their actions, from the App Store, to the developer agreement, to Flash, all fit this explanation perfectly. This explanation also has the added benefit of being the simplest, most rational one.

The egomaniacal, all-controlling, all-censoring explanation suffers from at least two major flaws. First, it isn't terribly consistent. Webkit being open source and html5 being an open standard as well as the many other open source and open standards that Apple supports (many of which Apple created), all contradict this view. The other flaw is that this requires Jobs to be exceptionally villainous, beyond anything you'd find in a Bond film. A lot of the "control" people here seem to want to attribute to Jobs makes no sense whatsoever. Steve Jobs doesn't want to control what you think or do. How absurd is it that one would have to write that sentence as a legitimate rebuttal?

Programmers are a little more unwieldy in this respect.

Yeah, I'm sure vast untold hordes of developers are fleeing the App Store as we speak. /sarcasm

Re:proprietary and apple

[s73v3r]

You can make web delivered apps in HTML5/JavaScript. They are not stopping this. Your point of Apple trying to stop web apps is invalid.

Re:proprietary and apple

[sglewis100]

No, the real reason is to control ad and app revenue. Apple now owns the ad revenue stream into their devices with iAd in 4.0 and later.

This doesn't REQUIRE developers to use it. It just provides it as an easy thing to implement. AdMob apps won't disappear overnight... except for where they find Apple pays them more and they switch out of sheer excitement.

Re:proprietary and apple

[beakerMeep]

Ok let's sum up:

-You hate low uids. Really what does that have to do with anything?

-Apple is cool because the DRM they developed is weak (You've also been around long enough to know that Apple was developing DRM for quicktime pre itunes right?)

-Since the original dev kit iphone was some unusably-lame browser based thing, you somehow count that as a point for open standards.

-You think that open+proprietary = open.

I'm at a loss for why you got modded up, you seem pretty incorrect to me, and you were very rude.

Re:proprietary and apple

[cowscows]

He's not blasting Adobe for being closed, he's blasting them for going around telling everyone how open they are when that's not true.

He fully admits that Apple has lots of proprietary stuff. In that same letter. Whatever merits that Flash might have that would warrant Apple supporting it on the iPhone, it being an open system is not one of them, and so Adobe should try to make more useful arguments.

Not that it'll matter to Jobs.

Re:proprietary and apple

[Lars T.]

He is protesting that Flash is pushing a closed standard when he is the biggest pusher of closed standards on the planet.

No, he is protesting that Flash is pushing a closed standard on the web when he is the biggest pusher of open standards on the web on the planet. But thanks for putting your hate towards Apple above that towards Flash.

Re:proprietary and apple

[Graff]

This is why it's so one-sided to link to the analysis of the letter without linking to the letter itself. Yes, the letter is available at the bottom of the article, hidden behind a button that you have to click to see it, but that's not quite the same thing as being up-front and giving people a chance to read the letter first, digesting it, and then the analysis.

Anyways, here's the letter for people who may have missed the link: Thoughts On Flash. Steve Jobs fully admits that a lot of Apple's stuff is proprietary and he explains why the proprietary nature of Flash matters in this circumstance.

Here is a relevant section from the letter:

Adobe's Flash products are 100% proprietary. They are only available from Adobe, and Adobe has sole authority as to their future enhancement, pricing, etc. While Adobe's Flash products are widely available, this does not mean they are open, since they are controlled entirely by Adobe and available only from Adobe. By almost any definition, Flash is a closed system.

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript - all open standards. Apple's mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member.

It's an interesting read which makes quite a few thought-provoking points.

He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[eldavojohn]

First off, the original press release is strangely hidden behind a div below the paraphrase of the press release -- why not press release and then commentary? A minor gripe but reading them in the order they presented them, I got the feeling I was being told what to think about what Jobs said prior to reading what it actually was that he said. Then there's always the fear that the reader doesn't bother with the actual press release.

Tacky that his first point is that Flash is proprietary, when Apple restricts the apps that can be installed on the phone. Pot, meet kettle.

And of course, he knows this. Which is why he spends one paragraph railing against Adobe and the next paragraph justifying Apple as distinctively different products and then even another paragraph praising Apple for their WebKit work. From the original press release:

Apple has many proprietary products too. Though the operating system for the iPhone, iPod and iPad is proprietary, we strongly believe that all standards pertaining to the web should be open. Rather than use Flash, Apple has adopted HTML5, CSS and JavaScript – all open standards. Apple's mobile devices all ship with high performance, low power implementations of these open standards. HTML5, the new web standard that has been adopted by Apple, Google and many others, lets web developers create advanced graphics, typography, animations and transitions without relying on third party browser plug-ins (like Flash). HTML5 is completely open and controlled by a standards committee, of which Apple is a member.

Apple even creates open standards for the web. For example, Apple began with a small open source project and created WebKit, a complete open-source HTML5 rendering engine that is the heart of the Safari web browser used in all our products. WebKit has been widely adopted. Google uses it for Android's browser, Palm uses it, Nokia uses it, and RIM (Blackberry) has announced they will use it too. Almost every smartphone web browser other than Microsoft's uses WebKit. By making its WebKit technology open, Apple has set the standard for mobile web browsers.

Of course, he spends more time and words making sure that Apple's version of proprietary is justified while they have even been a leader in open web standards.

My opinion, if you care to hear it, is that it's really easy to jump on someone for not being open when it's not your bread and butter that's at stake. I don't like Adobe and I don't like Apple but what I see here is Adobe scrambling to maintain control and authority over Flash because they perceive (possibly correctly) that to be their lifeline in a turbulent marketplace. Essentially I feel like Jobs said "Adobe's not open and we're not open in our core business but there are auxiliary/complimentary efforts we've been instrumental with that are actually open." While he completely overlooks similar "good will" efforts by Adobe to release the source code of the Flex 3 SDK (I don't find it to be truly open source like they market it though). And he's being disingenuous towards his users in order to make more money which requires reduced functionality of his device. He's a businessman. They are known to not only make decisions like this but their stockholders often require it with threat of litigation.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[tlhIngan]

My opinion, if you care to hear it, is that it's really easy to jump on someone for not being open when it's not your bread and butter that's at stake. I don't like Adobe and I don't like Apple but what I see here is Adobe scrambling to maintain control and authority over Flash because they perceive (possibly correctly) that to be their lifeline in a turbulent marketplace

Probably at the urging of the biggest users of flash - advertisers. For everyone wanting flash - I dare you to disable all addons that block flash - including NoScript, AdblockPlus, FlashBlock and others. You'll find that a good majority of pages will have some flash ad or other on it, and sites that require flash like YouTube, Vimeo, HomeStarRunner and the like are the narrow minority of sites.

You'll probably turn flash blockers on again after a few minutes of browsing. Now imagine that on your phone, except you've got a processor that's a third as fast (since the Nexus 1 and iPad have Ghz CPUs), and which is probably spending more time rendering the flash than rendering the page.

I've got devices that have full Flash. Let's just say having the page stop rendering so I can view the ad in real time isn't exactly the best browsing experience I've had. Or even worse, videos that still drop frames (on my Nokia N810), or one site that consumed so much CPU time, it was effectively locked up trying to play a video (1 frame every 30 seconds, 2 seconds of audio every 30 seconds, UI unresponsive). Easiest way to back out of that was remove the battery, losing other data (yay multitasking).

Adobe's probably getting pressure from advertisers. Surprisingly, Adobe hasn't fast-tracked a Flash player for the more open platforms out there - 3 years of griping about Flash on the iPhone, and they don't have anything for Android.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[V!NCENT]

Steve Jobs aknowledges that he of course the Mac OS X platform is totally proprietary, but he then raises his concerns about the fact that he believes that the WORLD WIDE WEB should ALWAYS be OPEN.

And Steve Jobs completely nailed it:
"New open standards created in the mobile era, such as HTML5, will win on mobile devices (and PCs too). Perhaps Adobe should focus more on creating great HTML5 tools for the future, and less on criticizing Apple for leaving the past behind."

Kaboom!

Signed,
-Fedora user that buys AMD hardware to support AMD's new FLOSS and non-NDA-restrcited freely available documentation for everyone to be able to write a fully working driver for Radeon hardware

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[TheNumberless]

Jobs' argument is poorly stated. But I do see a difference here:

One is devices that all view the same open web. Apple pisses you off for not letting your run your browser of choice on the iPhone? You can buy any other phone and get to exactly the same content. This approach puts the power in the market, and it's what Jobs appears to be, advocating, in a half-assed, self interested way, of course. And if I want to buy a locked down phone? That's my business, not yours.

The other is devices that view a web where the good bits are all controlled by Adobe. Now suppose Adobe pisses you off for not including some feature, or performing poorly on your device of choice. Your option here is basically to conform to Adobe's wishes or do without the content they lock up.

Basically, I'm okay with Apple doing what they want as long as I have the option of not buying or using their products (disclaimer: I currently own an iPhone. They haven't crossed my personal line yet). I don't really have that option with Adobe, although it's getting a lot better lately.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[je ne sais quoi]

Because those things aren't the web, those are browsers which are tools used to access the web. Get the difference? In Jobs' view, a company should be able to sell whatever software/hardware they want to access the web, BUT, those things should access the web in an open way. It's a nuanced position, but it's not hypocritical in any way. To use a car analogy, Ford can put whatever proprietary parts they want in their cars and void your warranty if you the owner put anything but Ford-approved parts into the vehicle*, but the gas it runs on and "the interface" that the car uses to the outside world (i.e., the road) should be accessible to anyone driving any type of car and not rely on a single manufacturer.

* By the way, car manufacturers actually do this, there's an issue with Toyota FJ cruisers developing cracks in their bumpers that Toyota is claiming is due to the modifications for 4-wheeling that the people who are reporting this issue have put in their vehicles and thus won't honor the warranty.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[macshome]

Because those are applications to browse the web with and not the web.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[Altus]

So if Apple embraces an open web, how come I can't run anything but Safari and Opera on the iPhone?

I don't understand this. I mean, I understand why you want to run another browser, but I don't understand how restricting the iPhones browser choices is inconsistent with embracing an open web. He isn't embracing an open phone, but the browser they provide on that phone is standards compliant. Apple has a pretty good history of using open standards and often when they develop a new way of doing things they open it up to others.

Sure, the iPhone is a closed system, but if its standards compliant, especially in the way it deals with the internet, then it supports a standards compliant internet.

Flash is closed, it is not an open standard. If adobe closed up tomorrow the amount of flash that we rely on would become a problem. Right now a fully featured internet experience depends on using a platform that is supported by a single company that produces a non open plug in. If your platform isn't supported by Adobe, or isn't supported well, you are out of luck when it comes to using the internet. If your platform isn't well supported by Apple that doesn't make nearly as big of a difference when it comes to your internet experience (though quicktime can be an issue, at least there are tons of other options for streaming video).

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[__aaaaxm1522]

Double amen to the above post!

Anyone that gripes about wanting Flash on their phone/mobile device *HAS NEVER HAD* Flash on a mobile device. If they had, they wouldn't want it so bad.

I've got a Nokia N800, and the Flash experience is *terrible*. Let me tell you what great fun it is to wait for a page to render because some advertiser has a tiny little flash ad in the corner of a page. On an iPhone, the page loads instantly. On my N800? Forget it. It'll sit there and churn on that on poorly written/designed Flash app until *finally*, it appears.

And let's say that for the fun of it I actually want to interact with that silly little Flash ad. Oh look! It uses hover states for mouse tracking - something that isn't supported on a touch interface... so instead of playing its silly little game or whatever, I end up clicking through to whatever site it links to.

Flash on a mobile? No thanks. Been there, had that, sent it back to the kitchen.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[macshome]

Web standards are one thing. Browser choice is a totally different thing.

From the TV analogy, the choice of TV set is irrelevant as long as it supports the broadcast standards I want.

Browsers have different levels of support for W3C standards, but that level of support isn't what defines the standard. I might want to use a browser with a different feature set or code base, but that has nothing to do with the "open web standards" of the content to be consumed.

Re:He Is Quick to Forgive Apple, Of Course

[macshome]

How many times do I need to explain this?!?

I can't install the internet on your phone BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE A FLOPPY DRIVE!!!

Whoosh!

[Akido37]

Tacky that his first point is that Flash is proprietary, when Apple restricts the apps that can be installed on the phone. Pot, meet kettle.

That's kind of the whole point. Jobs admits that Apple has a closed system, when Adobe is claiming theirs is open. When he talks about open, he's referring to HTML5/CSS/JavaScript, which you DO NOT need to submit to the app store.

Re:Whoosh!

[Darth Snowshoe]

NO, nearly everybody in this thread is, again, missing the point. Steve had six, 6, different points or items or arguments he brought up. EVERYONE here wants to rail about openness. I get it, we all get it already. That argument would be the same whether iPad supported flash or not. But what about security, performance, reliability? No one here has anything to say about that, and I'll take that as tacitly agreeing that Steve is right on those issues. Likewise, what about the HW vs SW argument? It's easy for code developers, some of whom I'm guessing have invested a fair about of time and training in becoming adept at flash, to just wave their arms and say "battery life is somebody else's problem". Well, yes, the hardware manufacturer's, for one. Here is a hardware manufacturer's response. Etc. Maybe you could just post an open thread each day in which people could gripe about the App store and its closed system, instead of allowing every thread about Apple to devolve into that.

Re:Whoosh!

[beelsebob]

He doesn't ignore that argument at all. He makes it very clear that they are rejecting flash applications because they don't want it to become a primary way of developing applications. If it *did* become a primary way of developing applications, apple would add features to the iPhone, and no one would use them, because adobe hadn't yet got round to adding support to flash. They don't want that situation.

Re:Whoosh!

[Wingsy]

"The biggest one being that rather than being an icon on the "home" screen, you're a bookmark in the web browser. Users first have to open Safari, and then have to open your webapp, which is tedious and annoying."

Then what are these icons on my iPhone home screen that open bookmarks with just a touch?

You can make any website or URL a home screen icon by pressing the "+" button while viewing the page.

Re:Whoosh!

[HanClinto]

Likewise, what about the HW vs SW argument? It's easy for code developers, some of whom I'm guessing have invested a fair about of time and training in becoming adept at flash, to just wave their arms and say "battery life is somebody else's problem". Well, yes, the hardware manufacturer's, for one. Here is a hardware manufacturer's response. Etc.

Okay, let's talk about the HW vs SW argument. Adobe needed API support from Apple before they could add hardware video decoding to their Flash Player. This API was only added in OSX 10.6.3, and even then, won't even run on my Macbook Pro, because it's older than a year and a half old, and Apple is not (yet?) providing API support for older hardware. You can rest assured, that now that Apple has finally provided an API for developers to use, Adobe has jumped on it, but due to Apple's half-way job of it, much of Apple hardware is not supported.

Oh right, I forgot -- I'm supposed to believe Adobe has been the sole lazy company here. Adobe recognizes they have more resources available that they're not yet utilizing -- but these were only recently made available by Apple.

Somehow Steve forgot to mention this in his tirade, didn't he? Convenient.

Re:Flash More Open?

[MBCook]

Flash is a standard. There are projects that try to implement it (like gnash, if I've got the name right). But the problem is that's just like Wine or ReactOS: you're always chasing the pack leader. When Flash 11 comes out with neatNewFeatureX, you have to scramble to try to implement it and make it work well while many people see broken content. And since it may have taken Adobe with all their engineers 3+ years to make that feature perform well, as someone making an alternate implementation, you're going to be quite behind.

What's the saying about hypocrisy?

[sethstorm]

Turtleneck calling the kettle black?

My choice? It's Nokia. At least they have a happy medium of openness, functionality, and usability. Yes, they have Flash.

Future Announcement: Adobe Creative Suite 6

[RevWaldo]

Adobe CS 6 - Now available for Windows 7, Linux...and that's it.

We said that's it! What, what!!?

.

Re:Future Announcement: Adobe Creative Suite 6

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Adobe CS 6 - Now available for Windows 7, Linux...and that's it. In other news Shantanu Narayen is fired from Adobe as sales tank now that over half the install base can't get the new version of CS without buying a new computer. What a bone head eh Debrah... now on to the weather.

Re:The actual letter

[Anonymous Coward]

And for those who care about the original source, it's right here on Apple's website.

Both Engadget and CNET are too afraid of sending precious ad clickers away from their site to link to the original of course.

Tacky... point... flash is proprietary

[Anita Coney]

When Jobs uses "proprietary" he means "not mine."

Tacky

[qoncept]

What is really tacky is all the whining about the lack of Flash on Apple devices. The people calling for it are undoubtedly the same people who were bitching about what an awful piece of garbage Flash is right up until they found out they couldn't get it on their iPhones. At a time where there are alternatives and better options are right around the corner, no less.

Strange..

[Anonymous Coward]

And the really strange thing, when I visit http://www.apple.com/hotnews/thoughts-on-flash/ I'm prompted that the site wants to install and run some strange, closed plugin called 'QuickTime' from 'Apple computer' in order to properly display the content.... Hmm...

"Flash is the number one reason Macs crash..."

[sribe]

Gee, do you think maybe that was a big part of it? Yes, there's plenty of other reasons for him to not want Flash on iPhone and iPad. But if Flash on the Mac were a decent-quality product, I suspect Adobe might have at least had a prayer of convincing him. But when their current product is the single largest source of instability, why on earth would Jobs let a mobile version anywhere near his pet project?

I know that some people here will jump all over his assertion, and accuse him of lying. But let me tell you, I think it's true.

I'm a heavy web user, and around Safari 3 I started to really get fed up with how crash-prone Safari was. Always crashing when I had many windows and tabs open. Everything else on my system extremely stable. Only Safari crashing. For crying out loud, the 3rd major version, and they still couldn't make it stable? Ridiculous!

I started actually looking at the crash reports. Dozens of crashes, probably close to 100. And every single one of them was in the Flash plug-in. Not a single exception, not a single crash not in the Flash plug-in.

Now, how many users would read a crash report and discover that Flash is the problem? And how many would just assume that Safari is buggy and blame Apple?

That's why I knew with 99% certainty before the iPad was announced that there would be no Flash for it. To be blunt, it would have been irresponsible to let Flash near the iPad or iPhone until Adobe proves enough commitment and competence to get it working well on OS X, where it has access to vastly more resources in a far more forgiving environment.

Re:"Flash is the number one reason Macs crash..."

[sribe]

We only have Apple's word that that's the case...

Granted I'm only one user, but you also have my word, as detailed in the message to which you are replying. But you seem to want to ignore that because it would undermine your name-calling. (Well, actually it's not just me. There are plenty of other people who have come to the same conclusion, independently and based on their own experience.)

...and it is a convenient argument to divert attention from Apple's clear goals.

Yes indeed, it is a very convenient argument. Handed by Adobe to Apple on a silver platter, completely unnecessarily. And whose fault is that?

I personally don't believe that Flash is "the single largest source of instability" in OS X...

Please explain the basis of this belief, preferably with similar specificity to my description of how I came to believe that Flash is the single largest source of instability in OS X. (One thing I realize I left out of my original post is that I came to this conclusion long before Apple started making the claim.)

You are demonstrating a clear lack of understanding of the issues, and since you seem to think that Apple's product is Safari I'd say your opinion doesn't count for much.

That doesn't even make sense. Of which issue did I demonstrate a lack of understanding? Safari is one of Apple's products, and an important one to end users, whose experience of Apple's products is determined to a very great extent by their experience with Safari. Further, as I stated in my message, everything else was stable--just Safari was crashing, and only because of Flash.

Re:so what about Java?

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Java is open and proven in the mobile space and Apple (or anyone) could ensure the JVM used is up to date and allows the use of any new features or hardware.

It breaks the security model. Right now someone writes malware for the iPhone, Apple finds out, revokes the keys and the malware goes away except on phones it managed to jailbreak. It stops spreading and we move on. If Java apps are allowed in the JVM then, Apple has to revoke all Java apps and they all stop working the first time someone writes a Java-based malware.

Now take the same concern and apply it to multitasking etc. and add in the fact that every time Apple adds a feature they have to update the JVM to work with it as well as their normal APIs. Apple does not want to go back to maintaining their own fork of the JVM like they used to do for the desktop.

yeah well...

[Pojut]

...sticking HTML5 and wanting to use standards like it is all fine and well, but there is an assload more Flash content than HTML5 content out there right now. Why not support both HTML5 AND flash?

HTML5 may be the future, but Flash is still what is in use today.

Re:yeah well...

[Akido37]

Why not support both HTML5 AND flash?

HTML5 may be the future, but Flash is still what is in use today.

That's not the way Apple works. It adopted USB when there was exactly ONE USB printer on the market. It dropped floppies while they were still in common usage. It's been pushing FireWire when nobody else is.

Apple decides when to deprecate technology on their own devices. If you don't like it, buy something else.

Re:It's the 80's again

[sribe]

...but back in the 80's they made it such a pain in the ass to deal with them and make programs for the mac...

Funny, unlike most people here, I was actually alive and developing software back in the 80s. The tools sure weren't as good and I would never want to go back. But the level of support and attention from Apple DTS back then was just phenomenal--I do miss dealing with the smaller Apple where a tiny company with a tiny product could deal directly with engineers and nearly always get next-day answers.

On the other hand, these days, there's far fewer questions that aren't answered by the documentation ;-)

Apple also owns h264 patents

[tomhudson]

... which is the real reason Apple wants to kill flash - it won't let Apple fully exploit their h264 patents via, among other things, html5 video codecs.

Re:Apple also owns h264 patents

[tomhudson]

It's a great way to attack F/LOSS, since you can't infringe the patent, even if its cost is 1 cent per thousand. Hence the current problem with html5.

Also, the rate is only low during the initial phase - like crack, the first one is free.

Re:Rality distorsion field

[piquadratCH]

That statement from Jobs is absolutely tactless. Not only did he ridicule the work of the KHTML devs ("a small open source project"), he didn't even feel like writing out its name. I really love what Apple's done with WebKit, but Jobs could at least acknowledge that, thanks to KHTML, they had a great foundation to build upon.

They get some things right.

[drolli]

Basically what Jobs says is: dont use things which dont work well, even if you kill off some things which work.

Its the counterexample off microsoft: Never kill things which work, even if some things dont work right.

Re:HTML5 isn't quite there yet...

[yumyum]

http://alteredqualia.com/canvasmol/

http://www.kesiev.com/akihabara/

http://apirocks.com/html5/html5.html#slide1

I don't think there is anything in Analytics that cannot be done in HTML 5.

I didn't miss them at all .....

[King_TJ]

I happen to agree with practically of his points, and have been saying much the same thing about Flash since the beginning of this whole debate.

Honestly, I don't have much sympathy for Adobe here. No matter how loudly they whine - the fact remains that they rely too heavily on their products securing a place in the computing world simply because they're "good concepts", vs. making the effort necessary to ensure they're solid and reliable in actual use.

EG. Adobe Acrobat Reader is in such widespread use in the Windows world, it may as well be rolled into the operating system itself. BUT, if you actually stop and look around, you find plenty of better alternatives to work with your PDF documents. Kind of pathetic, really, when you consider PDF is Adobe's own invention, yet other people are handling the format better than they are! For example, people using the free PDF reader offered by Nuance get the ability to do document markup/annotation to their PDFs, and it launches a lot faster than Acrobat Reader too. And on the Mac side, the difference is even more striking. Apple's own "Preview" app in OS X is MANY times faster than Acrobat Reader for OS X, and even allows re-ordering pages in a PDF before printing or re-saving it. But all of that aside, look at Adobe's track record just handling installs/uninstalls/updates! Take a look at any Windows PC that's been around a while. If it has the latest (or even version 8.x) of Acrobat Reader on it, obtained through Adobe's automatic updates over time - go into C:\Program Files\Adobe and see what's in there. Betcha it's not just the folder for the current version of Acrobat Reader! I've seen multiple megabytes of leftovers in there on most systems from Acrobat 7 and even 5 or 6. They're TERRIBLE about doing housekeeping when updating their product!

And frankly, Acrobat Reader may arguably be Adobe's BEST piece of free software they let you download! Flash is multiple times worse! It crashes regularly, eats huge amounts of CPU time, and isn't consistently updated to work with the latest browser and OS technologies.

I'm not much of a Microsoft fan either, but let's face the facts. When have you heard the kind of negativity about Microsoft's competing Silverlight technology? It's basically the MS version of Flash, but it seems to run much better for people (even if that's just because it isn't as old, and doesn't have as much "legacy code" in it?) I've heard rumors they may release it for the iPhone at some point, too. That would further illustrate that this is a real failing on ADOBE'S part, not Apple's.

Re:Arbitrary distinction

[s73v3r]

The SWF spec is about as open as the OfficeXML spec from Microsoft. Yeah, its there, but its not the "real" spec. The published one has lots of inconsistencies, and the official implementation from Adobe deviates from the spec quite a bit.

Re:Arbitrary distinction

[peacefinder]

See, that's the interesting thing in this discussion.

* With Flash, one must use Adobe tools to create the content and Adobe tools to view the content. The content itself may or may not be free, but the means to manipulate it are not.
* With Apple iPhad*, one must use Apple tools to develop applications, but the device itself can view most open content.
* With HTML5, one may use any tools to create the content and any tools to view the content. (Though H.264 has some patent and licensing encumbrance iirc.)

HTML5 is clearly IMHO more open than Flash. (It'd be even more open with Ogg, but still it's a big improvement over Flash.)

A common theme about Apple and Flash is that Apple is hurting itself by not using Flash, and that's seen as a bad thing. Another is that Apple should be doing more to promote open standards. But somehow, even when one takes these together to see that Apple is hurting itself to promote more open standards, Apple is still the bad guy. :-)

Personally I find that hilarious.

[*: iPhone+iPod +iPad]

Re:Rality distorsion field

[Anonymous Coward]

Get over it. Apple lavished praise on KHTML--by name--when Safari was released SEVEN years ago. They were explicit on why it was chosen over Gecko. One of those reason was it was SMALL at under 140,000 lines of code. "SMALL?" Sound familiar? It was a COMPLIMENT, not a dismissal of KHTML.

The Apple haters need to come down out of the bell tower. It's clear many on /. didn't even get to the second paragraph of what Steve had to say.

There's a marked difference between a web standard that anyone can implement, like HTML5, and Flash. Flash sucks on Mac OS X, Steve isn't shining anyone one. Flash routinely blows up its browsers and sucks CPU cycles like a starved vampire on Mac OS X. I've read it's not so great on Linux either. OK, given these FACTS, why do you want to perpetuate the 3rd party Flash when an comparable open standard is available? Want Flash on another OS? Gotta wait for Adobe and it might even suck.

I've noted most folks forget that Apple has been on both sides of things. They've lost control of the tool chain such as when Metroworks Codewarrior was the standard for Mac classic development. They've done "write once run elsewhere" as NeXT with OpenStep on Windows, on Solaris and the OPENSTEP/Mach OS. They've seen how Java evolved.