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Texas Tells Cape Wind "You're Not First Yet"

longacre writes "Cape Wind is making headlines for being the first offshore wind farm to earn federal approval, but it still has plenty of legal hoops to jump through before groundbreaking. Texas, on the other hand, requires no review — state, federal, or otherwise — to build wind farms off its shore. Texas energy expert and Popular Mechanics senior editor Jennifer Bogo talks to Texan energy leaders who are confident they will beat Cape Wind to the punch for the distinction of having the first functional US offshore wind farm. 'I was about to write a press release to congratulate Cape Wind for getting their approval,' says Jim Suydam, press secretary of the Texas General Land Office, 'and let them know when they're done jumping through hoops up there they can come build off the Texas Coast.' Despite its reputation as an oil-addicted, non-environmentally-friendly, conservative state, Texas's existing land-based wind farms actually produce four times more electricity than California's."

47 of 374 comments (clear)

  1. Whoever... by alfredos · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I'm not American but it's good to see public administrations (a) competing, and (b) trying to beat one another to be in the first line of renewables.

    1. Re:Whoever... by Firethorn · · Score: 2, Informative

      The problem comes when the goal of 'economic' becomes secondary to the goal of 'being first'.

      You have to be careful with 'green' or 'renewable', because there's a certain amount of FUD out there.

      Recycling programs that don't actually recycle. Recycling programs that create more pollution than they prevent. Lost a bit of my innocence when I found that out.

      Same deal with carbon credits, not ALL 'green' power sources are actually green, especially when you look at some of the specific implimentations out there.

      --
      I don't read AC A human right
    2. Re:Whoever... by SydShamino · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's nothing wrong with a "race" to be "first" if it yields demonstrable benefit. The Apollo program was like that.

      --
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  2. Read the Popular Mechanics article by Kupfernigk · · Score: 2, Funny

    There is a picture of a mechanical engineer working on renewables which will cause some Slashdot readers suddenly to want a career change.

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    1. Re:Read the Popular Mechanics article by burni2 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Perhaps there are many mech. engineers on /.

      Beeing a mech. eng. in the wind power industry is not bad at all, you have to do much of your work with a computer and Excel/VBA ;)

      ps.
      I for myself am one off them :)

    2. Re:Read the Popular Mechanics article by somersault · · Score: 3, Funny

      What, you've never been Beeing before? You are missing out, my friend.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    3. Re:Read the Popular Mechanics article by Sebilrazen · · Score: 4, Funny

      You tell 'em, honey.

      --
      "There are no facts, only interpretations." --Friedrich Nietzsche.
  3. Smart move by Mabbo · · Score: 5, Interesting
    Texas understands a simple principle: oil isn't forever. They have the money now, and can invest in wind, and other alternatives, so that when it runs out, they have another source of income, and a backup energy supply. Dubai is trying for a similar move, building what they hope is the Middle East's Singapore, but may have overdone it a tad.

    Living in the UK for the last year, I've seen a lots of investment in wind here. On the horizon here in Edinburgh, there's a pretty substantial wind farm. Flying back home I noticed there's another large one in the waters between Ireland and Wales.

    1. Re:Smart move by couchslug · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wind farms have another endearing quality:

      They don't explode. burn, and piss hundreds of thousands of gallons of oil into the ocean.

      The NIMBY folks who snivel about wind turbines are welcome to a deep draught of "Deepwater Horizon" (or Exxon Valdez, or to go way back, Torrey Canyon) to go with their oily fish dinner.

      --
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    2. Re:Smart move by twisteddk · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Knowing how windmills (and in particular windfarms) work, I wonder how Texans have solved the issue of overproduction ? I mean any sucker can buy a few hundred windmills from Vestas. But this type of energy is not "on demand" capable, like nuclear, coal og oil based electrical production is. Even hydropower can be scaled and "stored" up to a point.
      When you get a huge terrawatt windfarm, you NEED to be able to harness (and use) all of that energy, even at night, and that means either inefficient storage, or you have to close down on other production facilities. And that costs money too.

      Yes, by NOT burning oil for electricity we're keeping a green carbon footprint, but the plants producing the power still needs manning, and shutdown/startup isn't exactly easy (or cheap) in many cases. In my own home I can hook up a couple of batteries, but I suspect it's a lot more difficult on this large a scale. Anyone have a clue ? Or is this just another political move ?

      --
      --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
    3. Re:Smart move by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they do however kill sheep, the noise keeps them awake until they die. the sound may or may not have an effect on fish and dolphins, we don't know yet. also fossil fuel is forever, check out a work called "deep, hot, biosphere"

      Considering the article is specifically talking about offshore windfarms, I don't think that we need to be too concerned about any sheep who happen to be close enough to hear them.

      And I'd like to see some sort of citation to back up your claim. I realize that sheep are dumb (very, very dumb), but I grew up (and live) in a rural state which has a good bit of sheep farming. I've never heard of the ranchers having any problems with sheep dying due to lack of sleep even on ranches which are right next to major highways which produce a much higher level of noise even at night. In addition, we have several wind farms around the state, and there are some which actually exist ON sheep ranches, with no effects.
      So wherever you got your information, it was either flat out wrong, or there was something else bothering the sheep.

    4. Re:Smart move by hcpxvi · · Score: 2, Informative

      I noticed there's another large one in the waters between Ireland and Wales
      That would be North Hoyle and Rhyl flats. The UK has an advantage when it comes to building these things: the seas around it are shallow. Texas may have a similar advantage actually, I'm not sure how deep the Gulf is. California is less lucky: the Pacific gets quite deep quite quickly as you head away from the shore.

    5. Re:Smart move by paiute · · Score: 2, Funny

      they do ... kill sheep, the noise keeps them awake until they die.

      That is not true. It is true, however, that you can not let sheep stay out in the rain, as they will stare up into the sky and drown when the water fills their open mouths.

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    6. Re:Smart move by mystik · · Score: 2, Interesting

      They can, however, fail in fairly spectacular ways:

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CqEccgR0q-o

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    7. Re:Smart move by SethJohnson · · Score: 2, Informative

      It's related because electricity is the number-one competitor to gasoline for powering automobiles. Can't even think what the number-two competitor might be. Maybe horses?

      Seth

    8. Re:Smart move by Temkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Texas has a fully deregulated electric grid. Not unlike what California tried to do, but with safeguards against the kind of shenanigans Enron pulled. Add to this, it's almost completely isolated from the rest of the country. Last I heard there were three interconnects. They're building a fourth superconducting DC interconnect up near Amarillo, specifically to export panhandle wind energy to NM and the western US grid.

      All this wind power has had some interesting side effects. A couple months ago I was looking at switching providers, and I could have purchased a 6mo contract of 100% renewable wind energy for 9.8 cents/kwh. I'm still kicking myself. However, the wind forecasting and spinning reserve backup issue is very real. Texas very narrowly averted rolling blackouts a couple years ago when wind generation dropped off quite unexpectedly. They have emergency plans in place for large industrial users to shed load. It almost wasn't enough.

      You can't just shutdown those other production facilities. Some of them need to be fired up in spinning reserve, ready to shoulder the load while additional plants are brought online. Wind can disappear in 5 minutes. It takes hours if not days to start a coal plant from a cold state. Natgas turbines 15 to 20 minutes.

    9. Re:Smart move by plopez · · Score: 2, Funny

      I think the OP is the lament of a broken hearted sheep shagger.

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    10. Re:Smart move by SpryGuy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Dunno about sheep, but wind-farms DO kill bats. The blades attract them, and the pressure difference as they fly by can pop their lungs. And Texas is a big state for bat colonies, so it's been a real problem in some areas.

      http://dsc.discovery.com/news/2008/08/25/wind-turbine-bats.html

      --

      - Spryguy
      There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
    11. Re:Smart move by ffreeloader · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The number of flying animals killed by wind farms PALES in comparison to the number killed by cars, trucks, buildings, and so on.

      Yeah, but what's that compared to the ability to appear as if you really care?

      You know. Strike a pose. Appear to be something. That's far more important.

      --
      "while democracy seeks equality in liberty, socialism seeks equality in restraint and servitude." de Tocqueville
    12. Re:Smart move by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      ...oddly enough the ranchers in West Texas don't seem to mind the big turbines either.

      They don't kill livestock and they generate income.

      It's hard to argue against a paycheck.

      The "cowboy mentality" in Texas means that there will be less red tape involved
      in all of this and that any deployments are for purely economic reasons. The whole
      thing will at least seem to make practical sense for all involved.

      It won't be some do-gooder crusade bogged down by people that thing government should by your nanny.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    13. Re:Smart move by Almost-Retired · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well, speaking from the ancient engineer's viewpoint, I would be willing to bet that turbines design was killed not by the designing engineers stupidity, but by some bean counter that removed the feather-able blades feature to control its ultimate rpms. Since that is a fairly complex mechanism, they were 40% cheaper to build that way.

      And of course all the engineers were fired when the design was done, so the bean counters were free to do as they damned well pleased, which was to screw up what was probably a good design on paper.

      And I would hope that the bean counters attempts to sue the engineers get thrown out of court.

      Defective brakes my ass. Brakes waste energy, and that whole pylon does not have enough surface to dissipate the heat that would be generated by trying to control the blade speeds with nothing but mechanical, or electrical (suicide type) braking. One feathers the blade pitch, to reduce its coupling efficiency to the movement of the air past them. Even turning the head out of the wind can only done very slowly, and with great force required because of the gyroscopic moment of that size of a spinning wheel.

      That minor detail was ignored 70 years ago by the Win-Charger people, who kept putting ever bigger tails and control mechanisms on them as speed regulators. It worked, usually. But in swirling winds could easily generate sufficient force to break the then wooden propeller blades off at the hubs. I watched my grandfather carving new blades for his on at least 2 occasions, but after the second one he understood the failure and put the old rusty, much smaller tail back on it. Then the blades lasted long enough to make giving them a good coating or 4 of marine varnish worthwhile. Battery overcharge was not a problem as he was always rigging another 32 volt light bulb someplace that didn't have light before, making that one less place he had to carry a kerosene lantern for evening chores. He tested the sp of his batteries daily and grandma's wash day was often put off a day to charge the batteries as grandma had the only electric washing machine in Madison County IA (yeah, the county that the movie Bridges made famous) all during WW-II. Why? The old Maytag gas motor on it had kicked back and broke her ankle, and in 1939 that was a major blow to running a farm well. Grandpa said that isn't going to happen again and much of the next 2 years crops went to buy that 32 volt system.

      That short movie makes me ask once again: If sense is so common, why is common sense so darned scarce? Boggles my mind.

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    14. Re:Smart move by Reziac · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This is hilarious, considering that the domestic turkey and the wild turkey, considered one of the wiliest and most difficult to bag of all game birds, are the SAME SPECIES. But if you catch some wild turkeys and feed them for a while, they'll act the same as domestic ones.

      The difference seems to be whether they're used to being fed and protected, or are used to having to scrounge their own dinner and avoid predators on their own. Birds are very reactive, and if there's nothing to react to, they simply DON'T.

      And it's not just turkeys. I've seen wild-born Canadian geese (another wily bird, as they go) become downright stupid (and impossible to drive off) once they discovered safety and a free lunch in a farmer's barnyard -- and these were mature geese, not youngsters or hatchlings.

      Turkeys aren't so much stupid as intensely curious, to the exclusion of all common sense, and EXTREMELY trusting if they're not accustomed to avoiding hazards. Frex, if you show 'em a hose, they'll stick their beak up it, trying to see where the water comes from (then are perplexed that they can't breathe through it). And they'll follow around anyone who feeds 'em or even scratches their necks, cooing "I wuv 'oo" at 'em, with total trust.

      As you say, it does make them good domestic livestock, easy to get along with and keep unstressed right up to slaugher.

      [I think one could draw a parallel here, on one side the frontiersman, and on the other the city slicker. ;) ]

      --
      ~REZ~ #43301. Who'd fake being me anyway?
  4. Yeeeeeehaw! by Rogerborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In Texas, because we don't care about the environment, we're actually able to do things that are good for the environment [..] It's the most ironic, preposterous situation. If you want to build a wind farm, you just build it.

    You know, it's easy to mock Texans (from a safe distance) but there's a fully fledged bastard of a good point here. Regulation doesn't produce things. Government doesn't make anything. By and large, government just means worthless expense, and pointless obstruction.

    Given the choice between trusting The People, or trusting that small subset of The People who live by taxing the rest of us and telling us what's good for us, I think I'm going to have to call it for The People.

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    1. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by dnwq · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regulation means that those alternatives to wind farms with large, hidden costs borne actually pay those costs. So your clean wind farm actually turns a profit.

    2. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Thanshin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      That wouldn't happen because of zoning.

      Nope, zoning can't be useful, as it's done by "that small subset of The People who live by taxing the rest of us and telling us what's good for us".

    3. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by quokkaZ · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Talk about jumping to wild conclusions based on next to no evidence, but firmly ensconced in ideological clap trap.

      There are innumerable examples of governments "making things". As we are talking about electricity generation I will point out the Snowy Mountains Hydro Electric Scheme in Australia, built by the Australian government and operated to this day by a wholly government owned corporation. It is the largest engineering project ever undertaken in Australia and frequently cited as an example of civil engineering excellence.

      In scope and difficulty, putting up some wind turbines is just not in the same league.

      So what is it you were saying about governments?

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snowy_Mountains_Scheme#cite_note-ASCE-6

    4. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by OzPeter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Regulation doesn't produce things. Government doesn't make anything. By and large, government just means worthless expense, and pointless obstruction.

      Ah yes . the myth of the "Free Market is best" argument. Simplistic, naive and dangerous.

      A totally free and unregulated market gives you the Thalidomide, the Ford Pinto, lead paint in children's toys, contaminated pet food and (the latest one) contaminated Chinese dry wall. Why should the government regulate things, as after all the market will sort things out eventually.

      Who cares about the damage done to the consumer between the the time a company enters a market and the time people realise that something bad is happening.

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    5. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by hamburger+lady · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know, it's easy to mock Texans (from a safe distance)

      ooh, texans are so tough! you have to stand far away to make fun of them! they're all cowboys and have true grit(tm) and eat raw meat and grab bulls by the ballsack just for fun.

      jesus, i love texans and their 'tough guy' facade.

      --

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    6. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Chryana · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Regulation may not produce things, but it helps prevent The People as you like to call them from getting Ripped Off, such as during the California electricity crisis. Your point about "worthless expense and pointless obstruction" caused by regulations sounds particularly stupid in the light of the current events going on in the Gulf of Mexico. I think I'd rather trust people who are accountable to the population than some faceless multinational to look for my interests, thank you very much.

    7. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Jaysyn · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, that is just common sense that any given state in the US has zoning laws for urban & suburban areas.

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    8. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by adavies42 · · Score: 2, Insightful
      --
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    9. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by jeff4747 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Blatantly ripping this off from other people on the Internet:

      This morning I was awoken by my alarm clock powered by electricity generated by the public power monopoly regulated by the US Department of Energy. I then took a shower in the clean water provided by the municipal water utility. After that, I turned on the TV to one of the FCC regulated channels to see what the National Weather Service of the National Oceanographic and Atmospheric Administration determined the weather was going to be like using satellites designed, built, and launched by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration. I watched this while eating breakfast of US Department of Agriculture inspected food and taking the drugs which have been determined as safe by the Food and Drug Administration.

      At the appropriate time as regulated by the US Congress and kept accurate by the National Institute of Standards and Technology and the US Naval Observatory. I get into my National Highway Traffic Safety Administration approved automobile and set out to work on the roads built by the local, state, and federal departments of transportation, possibly stopping to purchase additional fuel of a quality level determined by the Environmental Protection Agency, using legal tender issued by the Federal Reserve bank. On the way out the door I deposit any mail I have to send via the US Postal Service and drop the kids off at the public school.

      After work, I drive my NHTSA car back home on the DOT roads, to a house which has not burned down in my absence because of the state and local building codes and fire marshal's inspection, and which has not been plundered of all it's valuables thanks to the local police department.

      I then log on to the internet which was developed by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Administration and post on freerepublic.com and Fox News forums about how SOCIALISM in medicine is BAD because the government can't do anything right.

    10. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Temkin · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, a lot of the Texas wind potential is up around Lubbock & Amarillo. Not exactly desert, but not far from it. It's actually the one of the biggest cotton producing regions in the US. The farmers are used to the concept of leasing out the "energy rights" of their land, and providing access to contractors to perform work, etc... Driving a tractor around a jack pump and a windmill is pretty the same thing.

    11. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by ArcherB · · Score: 2, Funny

      Texans don't give a shit about endangered animals

      That's not necessarily true. It really depends on how they taste when thrown on the grill with a nice, spicy, Serrano infused barbecue sauce and dressed with some fresh cilantro.

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    12. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Informative

      Okay lets put the next wind farm beside your house.

      Sorry, there's no room, since I already live within spitting distance of the largest onshore wind farm in Europe. And I love it. There's no noise from the turbines - unless you physically stand under them - and I think they're elegant and quite beautiful. How can you hate something with a "nacelle" on it?

      Oh, sorry, did I spoil your tiny pig-ignorant point? Go on, try again.

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    13. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Rogerborg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, drilling in the Gulf of Mexico is unregulated? Sorry, I thought that it happened despite regulation. I guess that totally invalidates my point about regulation being an expensive waste of time. You win two Internets!

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    14. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Regulation doesn't produce things".

      Not directly, but without it you have anarchy which ensures NOBODY produces anything. Try looking outside your navel, can you find ANY country with a weak goverment that is not a poverty stricken shit hole?

      The problem in the US is not over-regulation, it's corruption. The cape project basically had to wait for a powerfull NIMBY politician to die, and when he did, hey presto the SAME regulations are no longer a barrier. That one person should have the power to distort the regulatory process for their personal gain is frankly a tad third-worldish, perhaps you need stronger regulations on your politicians to curb that sort of nonesense?

      --
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    15. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 3, Insightful

      \For example. why should I start my own competition to the NOAA, to provide for a cost, something which the NOAA provides for free?

      You're right. Something like The Weather Channel would never work.

      It's dumb to attempt to compete with government monopolies that don't need to make a profit and can undercut you (or sometimes even prohibit you from operating in the first place, such as duplicating the services of the US Postal Service).

      FedEx? What a crazy idea. You can't complete with the US Postal Service. You sure as heck can't have multiple players in that market like UPS and DHL either.

    16. Re:Yeeeeeehaw! by Lakitu · · Score: 2, Informative

      Government doesn't make anything.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoover_dam

  5. Why Cape Wind Farm took so long by OzPeter · · Score: 3, Informative

    I missed posting this in the last Cape Wind Farm story. I read this book a couple of years ago and its description of nimby politics is chilling.

    Cape Wind: Money, Celebrity, Class, Politics, and the Battle for Our Energy Future on Nantucket Sound

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  6. Isn't Oil? by chapstercni · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If wind is solar power, then so is oil.
    Oil is energy from the sun converted via photosynthesis and has been stored all these years.

    1. Re:Isn't Oil? by sFurbo · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wouldn't that make it stellar in stead of solar? Unless the sun have gone nova since I last checked *looks out of the window* No, it is still shining. So if it has gone nova, it is less then 8 minutes ago.

    2. Re:Isn't Oil? by OzPeter · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wouldn't that make it stellar in stead of solar? Unless the sun have gone nova since I last checked *looks out of the window* No, it is still shining. So if it has gone nova, it is less then 8 minutes ago.

      (mutter mutter mutter) damn pedants (mutter mutter mutter) ruining a good post (mutter mutter mutter)

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  7. THAT'S HOW THE SHEEP DIE!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    THAT'S HOW THE SHEEP DIE!!! They walk out into the ocean to look at the windmills and drown! It's so obvious!

  8. Texas, on the other hand, requires no review... by John+Hasler · · Score: 2, Funny

    OMG! People doing things without permission! Unregulated activity!

    Oh. Wait. It's "Green". That makes it ok. Only climate denialists ever oppose anything Green. But does Texas subsidize these wind farms? If not they are still evil. It's Texas,after all. We have to find something evil in everything they do.

    I know. I bet Texas wind farms kill birds (California ones don't, of course: they are properly regulated).

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  9. W. Texas is a good place for wind turbines by plopez · · Score: 4, Informative

    Not only do they have a fair amount of wind, it tends to be consistent and no extreme.

    Other places have higher winds, but they can damage the turbines. Other places have steady winds but they are interspersed with calm periods.

    I went to W. Texas a few years ago and there seemed to be a steady stream of trucks carrying turbine parts down the roads. I heard of land owners forming associations (a "Wind Union" so to speak) to negotiate with the power generation companies for better leases.

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  10. Re:Wind energy actually pollutes? by careysub · · Score: 3, Informative

    I'd say, first of all this is pitch by the natural gas industry to build many more gas-fired power plants. And this is not an accusation, or an inference, or a suspicion, if you read the TFA this is exactly what the report is and claims to be.

    That being the case, their methods of analysis could use some critical outside examination.

    Second, the daily power load already has a 30% day night variation that is largely handled by coal plant throttling already, and coal plants spend about 6% of their time in unplanned outages (planned outages are extra). Wind power won't contribute any additional significant variation over a grid that already has to adapt to fluctuating supply and demand until it exceeds the 10% level. Since this already routine, and independent of wind power, I suspect that this coal throttling issue is already well understood and likely to minimized with further plant improvements

    Third, the gas industries suggestion is actually a good one. Bringing more gas peaking plants online would be a good way of improving grid load handling, if they displace coal (it also somewhat less carbon intensive).

    Fourth, this is actually an example of a repsonsible criticism to wind power, even if the claim is exaggerated or wrong. It points out a potential problem, and proposes a viable solution. This is how potential problems are dealt with - you identify them and you plan to address them.

    And fifth - all of FUD I seen thrown at wind power (and most of what I see thrown at solar, or electric cars) is based on the absurd proposition that their will be no other changes -- to the distribution grid, to power balancing, etc. - to accommodate the introduction of wind. This is basically taking the first half of point four, and pretending nothing can be done to fix it. It is certain that there will be many changes in the national power system going on in the years ahead.

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