Slashdot Mirror


iPhone SDK Agreement Shuts Out HyperCard Clone

Halo1 writes "Demonstrating it's not just about Flash, Apple has officially rejected for the first time another alternative iPhone development environment following its controversial iPhone SDK Agreement changes. Even though RunRev proposed to retool its HyperCard-style development environment to directly expose all of the iPhone OS's APIs, Steve Jobs still rejected its proposal. The strength of RunRev's business case, with a large-scale iPad deployment project in education hinging on the availability of its tool, does not bode well for projects that have less commercial clout. Salient point: at last February's shareholders' meeting, Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it.'"

29 of 610 comments (clear)

  1. DRM, restrictions, outcry by sopssa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.

    People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.

    But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

    1. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It was a similar situation with 3G, copy and paste, and a plethora of other features that were added well after the fact. The fanboys claimed that they didn't want all of that. 3G drained the battery, copy and paste complicated the UI, etc. It's all about the Reality Distortion Field being pumped up to levels of recockulousness.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    2. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Amarantine · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows. It would be hit with lawsuits and there would be tons of stories and tens of thousands of comments dissing MS on slashdot.

      Well, good thing this isn't about desktop OS's, then, isn't it? In fact, coding for OS X is free and unrestricted, just as with Windows. On the other hand... You know that for Windows Mobile 7, apps need Microsoft's approval, don't you?

      People also always cry about how consoles are locked down. Slashdotters cry about DRM, restrictions and not giving them control of the devices they buy.

      But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

      Actually, i find it's the other way around. Nobody blinks an eye when Sony, Microsoft or Nintendo brings out a new line of consoles, vendor locked-in to the max, only running apps that require their approval and signature, a process which costs tens of thousands $$. But if Apple does it for their iPhone, bring out the tar and feathers!

    3. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by rsborg · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio... But suddenly when it's Apple it's all ok. Why the hell?

      First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft, second, I don't think this move is cool either, but it's totally legal.

      --
      Make sure everyone's vote counts: Verified Voting
    4. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      See, I think (and I think some people on here might agree) is that yes: We don't like the business practices of Apple. But somewhere deep down inside, we want to see what will happen when Apple does these kinds of things. We're silently hoping that it shuns developers to other platforms, thus weakening Apple's product as a whole, and we can finally say "I told you so" when their stocks drop from bad ideas such as this.

      On the other hand, we also like the idea of "Apple has the freedom to do what they want with their product" (notice that I cannot purchase a Microsoft Desktop, they don't have the full verticle control thing going on). It seems if we press on locking them down, the whole system will be locked down, and thats not good for everyone.

      So we give them a bit of leniency because they are kind of our guinea pig. Big enough to try things out, but we don't have to depend on them.

    5. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by BlueKitties · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The problem is that the iPhone and iPad are becoming more or less general computing platforms. This isn't a matter of locking down a single, narrow media device, but a broad multi-purpose system. The iPad is a hell-ouv-lot more than a game console -- it has the potential to completely replace a laptop, depending on the user's needs. Apple is getting a foot-hold on our everyday computing needs, so when they lock down such devices they gain an unbelievable amount of control. If tomorrow, we all switched to Apple devices, we would literally have a technology Big Brother. It's not just a buzz phrase at this point, it's how Apple operates. They think they know best, and they are willing to use their power to get their way. Now, that doesn't mean it would be the end of the world or anything, but it would be a sad day for the tech industry. But hey, we can argue all we want online, I vote with my wallet (i.e. I will never buy anything with an Apple logo.) That is, at least, until I don't have much choice.

      --
      "Sorrow is better than laughter, for by sadness of face the heart is made glad." [Ecclesiastes 7:3]
    6. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Damn! The PC is irrelevant? When did this happen? Is it too late to sell all of mine? "Cloud Computing", slates, pads, etc. are all simply the latest flavors of the week. If you truly believe that the PC is going to become a niche product then I have a bridge in Alaska to sell to you.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    7. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't give a damn if I need Apple's permission to sell apps in their store. As has been beaten to death here, it is their store. My problem is with them restricting 3rd party installations. If Windows takes the same route with Mobile 7 and doesn't allow manual installs then they'll be just as evil as Apple. This is tantamount to you being told that you can only purchase MP3s from iTunes despite the fact that your device is perfectly capable of handling music from a variety of sources. Jobs is simply afraid that if he gives consumers a choice it will undermine the lock-in that he is trying so desperately to complete.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    8. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Would I be allowed to drive slowly down a street taking pictures of kids at a park as long as I wasn't a convicted pedophile? I don't care about Microsoft's past, what I care about is the frightening path that Apple is trying to force technology to follow in the present and the future.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    9. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually I don't really care.
      Apple isn't a monopoly and makes some really good stuff.
      As a developer I don't care as I can pick what platform I want to work on.

      I gave up passionately caring about a platform when the Amiga failed to get any traction when it was better in every way than the PC was.

      Apple, Microsoft, Google, HP, Intel, and AMD are all just companies that I buy products from when I like them. They do not pay my bills.

      Software patents "There should be no such thing" I care about.
      The DMCA "stupid and harmful" I care about.
      The RIAA and MPAA acting like an arm of the government I care about.

      Apple telling people they can not sell iPorn or write in Flash for the iPhone? Who cares? Pick a different platform folks. These rules do not have the force of law and really have nothing to do with your rights or freedoms.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    10. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      they're lack of a monopoly is what makes it legal but it doesn't make it any more right

    11. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by mrsteveman1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Imagine what would happen if Apple discontinued the MacBook (not Pro) in favor of the iPad XL

      The proper name is maxiPad.

    12. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Richard_at_work · · Score: 4, Informative

      First, Apple is not a convicted monopolist like Microsoft

      Neither is Microsoft a 'convicted monopolist' - the case against them was a civil action, you can only be convicted of something in a criminal court. The term 'convicted monopolist' is nothing more than a slashdot marketing term.

    13. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Karlt1 · · Score: 5, Informative

      Just imagine the outcry if Microsoft banned all other development environments than Visual Studio and .NET from Windows.

      Actually, Microsoft is banning all other environments other than .Net from WinMo 7. That was the reasob cited for FireFox not to create a port for it.

    14. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Animats · · Score: 4, Informative

      The fanboys claimed that they didn't want all of that.

      That goes a long way back. For the original Mac, the fanboys were saying "The Mac has resolution; it doesn't need color." (IBM had color. Sun had color. Apple was strictly black and white. Not even greyscale in the early models. Fortunately for Apple, they had Susan Kare, who made the Mac interface look good under those limitations.)

    15. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by EvilNTUser · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Bullshit. 3G has a higher power drain, but not even in 2007 was it so high that a smartphone should've gone without.

      This is why there will never be an iPhone killer. Better features are dismissed without reason, and any device offering all of the iPhone's strong points would be derided as a copy.

      --
      My Sig: SEGV
    16. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by crmarvin42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I don't remember anyone saying that 3G wasn't desirable, only that it wasn't a deal breaker. IIRC, AT&T's 3G coverage was still pretty spotty as a result of the recent merger of Cingular et al. that led to it's creation.

      Hell, I used to have 3G coverage with my iPhone before I moved, but now I've got Edge only when I'm away from WiFi. It works, just not as well. I'd love for AT&T to get 3G in my part of Minnesota, but it's not like I'm going to get rid of a phone just because the provider doesn't offer 3G in my area yet.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    17. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Mordok-DestroyerOfWo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The problem is that in order to create a modern polished device, typically a large amount of money is needed for engineers and patent lawyers (don't even get me started on that). The only entities with those sorts of resources are the Microsofts and Apples of the world. I'm not asking Apple to open the floodgates and allow anybody to sell from their app store. All I'm asking is for them to let the consumer make the decision instead of unilaterally laying down the law.

      --
      "Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right" - Salvor Hardin
    18. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by speculatrix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      there were plenty of good 3G chipsets around at the time where battery life would have been fine; I suspect that Apple's requirement for IP licensing and any lockdown mechanisms meant there wasn't a suitable 3G chipset.

    19. Re:DRM, restrictions, outcry by Bing+Tsher+E · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "The best cut n paste UI of any mobile device."

      That must mean cut and past on everything else is horrendous. I don't have an iPhone but I now have an iPod Touch and I use it around the home mostly for web stuff over Wi-Fi. Every once in awhile, when I am trying to scroll around on the display, the 'copy' mechanism kicks in and grabs some text instead. A minor annoyance and usually I can deselect it without hitting a hyperlink and Safari flitting off to some other web page.

      Yesterday for the first time, I wanted to cut and past something. I've installed QuickOffice on the thing and I wanted to save some text from a web page.

      Nothing that I could do, or figure out how to do, would trigger the 'capture text for copying' function that I've inadvertently triggered in the past.

      That is NOT my definition of a good cut/paste user interface. There's nothing intuitive about it. I guess I should go out and find an O'Reilly manual for the iPhone OS. They publish the 'Missing Manual' series after all.

      Apple's interface design decisions are always highly political and steeped in dogma. It's been that way since the launch of Macintosh.

      It's good that you've stepped forward to be the spokesperson for 'the fanboys' Baselbrush... but this is developers.slashdot.org not your usual apple.slashdot.org. Don't you feel kinda out of place here??

  2. Jobs wants 'hypercard' on the iPhone? Yeah right. by Bearhouse · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Jobs went on the record saying that something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, 'but someone would have to create it'.

    This being the same Steve Jobs that effectively killed the original Apple Hypercard back in 2000?

    Maybe that should have read, "something like HyperCard on the iPad would be great, but we would have to create it, otherwise it clearly would not be insanely great..."

  3. Stupid is as stupid does... by mcrbids · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Steve is really trying to sell himself short, here. His reality distortion field has gone to his head, and he thinks he's bulletproof. And you know what? When he was the only game in town, he was bulletproof.

    But he's not the only game in town. In fact, as of 1st Q 2010, he's not even the biggest game in town! As an application developer myself, the recent shenanigans around dictating to developers like me how we can or can't do our job and/or what tools we can use make the iphone a non-starter.

    Sorry, too hostile for me, too much lockin for my clients, and not enough benefit. Android it is!

    Isn't it ironic that the company responsible for opening up the smartphone market is now offering the most closed platform?

    --
    I have no problem with your religion until you decide it's reason to deprive others of the truth.
  4. InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store by tepples · · Score: 4, Informative

    Do you mean to say that Microsoft is now going to force developers to publish through its app store and nothing else?

    This appears correct.

    I did not know that. Citation needed please.

    From this InformationWeek article: "All apps must be approved by Microsoft, and can only be distributed via the Windows Marketplace for Mobile."

    1. Re:InformationWeek on Windows Phone 7's app store by RyuuzakiTetsuya · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Android probably never will go down that route, and as a result, no matter how successful Android phones become in the market, Android apps will never be as successful as iPhone apps.

      not true, Android Marketplace?

      The only problem is convincing developers there's a market there, or that developing for generic devices with any number of different features is a good idea.

      --
      Non impediti ratione cogitationus.
  5. Re:Same problem Flash had... by Halo1 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Everything that has gotten approved so far uses XCode as a build step. You don't necessarily have to do all your development work in XCode (i.e. Unity game engine),

    Where have you seen that Unity has been approved by Apple? All I've seen is the Unity people saying "we think we're fine because Apple can't afford to remove all apps on the appstore that have been built with our engine, but obviously we can't offer any guarantees".

    Cross compile to an XCode project with things like static libraries for your runtime and everything will be fine.

    I'm not sure how you can interpret an SDK agreement stating, a.o.,

    • Applications must be originally written in Objective-C, C, C++, or JavaScript as executed by the iPhone OS WebKit engine
    • Applications that link to Documented APIs through an intermediary translation or compatibility layer or tool are prohibited

    as

    Applications can be originally written in any language as long as they are translated into an Xcode project and if your compatibility layer is linked in via a static library

    --
    Donate free food here
  6. Re:iPad is not a PC - Where is my Prius SDK? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

    Are you completely new to the cellphone industry? There have been development kits available before the IPhone or IPod even existed. I wrote my own apps using J2MEE long before Apple decided to enter the market. That is on phones NOT considered smart phones.

    Apple is not the first cellphone manufactuer to support dev tools, but they are definitely one of the first to disallow someone who owns a device from choosing what to create or run on it.

    They are also a first for dictating what development environments or even PREPROCESSORS a developer can use. XBox, Nintendo, Sony, etc all allow apps to be compiled in C/C++ to their target ABI (Application Binary Interface).

    You present a failed comparison. In the world of cellphones, and closed systems, this is a first, and it should anger anyone who thinks they should actually OWN a device.

  7. XNA Creators Club by tepples · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft is doing what it always does: Copying.

    But in this case, the copying went the other way around. Microsoft had the XNA Creators Club ($99 per year) and Xbox Live Indie Games several months before Apple had the iPhone Developer Program ($99 per year) and App Store. This is just Microsoft extending the XNA model to phones.

  8. Convicted Monopolist My Arse by manekineko2 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I hate it when people trot out that tired convicted monopolist argument.

    So if tomorrow the Supreme Court found Apple to be a monopolist with regards to smartphones (setting aside all plausibility arguments as to such, this is a hypothetical), I presume that would make you say what Apple is doing is wrong?

    I somehow doubt that would be the case for most people that raise the convicted monopolist argument.

    Legality is not the same as morality.

  9. Long view by manekineko2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we were all guaranteed with a crystal ball that Apple would forever remain a niche player and that the iPhone/iPad mobile ecosystem would not become the dominant paradigm of mobile computing, then I would agree with you. However, given Apple's current trajectory, this conclusion is by no means clear to me. So in the meantime, I am trying to prevent that from happening, but raising attention to the bad things that would happen if Apple's current growth continues unimpeded.

    This is about rights and freedoms. Freedom of choice is meaningless if when the time comes to make a choice, there is only one thing to choose from.