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Japan Plans Moon Base Built By Robots For Robots
An anonymous reader writes "The Japanese space agency, JAXA, has plans to build a base on the Moon by 2020. Not for humans, but for robots — and built by robots, too. A panel authorized by Japan's prime minister has drawn up preliminary plans for how humanoid and rover robots will begin surveying the moon by 2015, and then begin construction of a base near the south pole of the moon. The robots and the base will run on solar power, with total costs about $2.2 billion USD, according to the panel chaired by Waseda University President Katsuhiko Shirai. 'As currently envisioned, the robots that will land on the lunar surface in 2015 will be 660-pound behemoths equipped with rolling tank-like treads, solar panels, seismographs, high-def cameras, and a smattering of scientific instruments. They'll also have human-like arms for collecting rock samples that will be returned to Earth via rocket.'"
I for one welcome our 660-pound moon-dwelling robot overlords
Oh that seems so appropriate right now...
seriously.
Here's hoping, at least.
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Ya I'm not so optimistic about the trust worthiness of robots. This sounds to me like they are practically giving them the perfect rebel base, for when the robot rebellion comes.
That's all good, until they start to hurl moon rocks at us, via a robot-built rail gun.
Should they bite your shiny metal ass?
So if they deliver that entire program whose lifetime costs are only 2.2 Billion, I would be super impressed. In fact I would be impressed if we did it ourselves for 5 times that amount.
Why would you want the US to "take the Moon"?
Fuck Empire. Everywhere, always. Don't take that bullshit to space, kthx.
Yay for building this base thanks to robots
Nay for building it with humanoid robots
My bet is that they'll get their funds by showing nice pictures of Asimo wielding a pickaxe but when it will come to design their robots will look more like vehicles than to Johnny 5
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Just wait until all those humans start wearing the trademarked FRBR apparel.
It can't get any worse, now, can it.
How are they going to land when the thing is running wild?
Recently JAXA has been working on really cool and affordable (nation scale) projects, guess its time to pass the torch NASA.
Over time they will also turn into similar behemoth like the current NASA but by then we will actually be looking at making profit from going to space so it just won't matter, private industry will be all over that.
The robots and the base will run on solar power
They won't get much solar power on the moon since it's only out at night. We should copy their idea but build our base on the sun.
All I can say is "Its about time." The human body is not designed to operate in space, indeed almost all biological systems on Earth that reside under nice "shields" including the magnetic field, the atmosphere, the ozone layer or even the oceans and they were not designed (evolved) to withstand the hazards of space. Ignoring minor topics like micrometeorites and the lack of atmosphere one has the ongoing problem of radiation exposure. Humans for example have 150-200 genes in the genome (~1%) whose purpose is to repair DNA damage. It does not do so reliably (so radiation causes gradual genome decay). And although one may develop "shields" this makes activities by humans in space inherently more expensive than using the right "organism" [1]. Anyone aware of robotics research knows that the Japanese are pushing this forward at a very rapid pace. Presumably much faster than one can push forward human "evolution" [2].
Yes humans can engineer suits, habitats, shields, rovers, etc. which would allow humans to operate in such alien environments. But *why* do this? One has to remember that the "moon rocks" were brought back to Earth for analysis. We have to develop the remote robotics operations capabilities for exploration anyway [3]. Lets do it for the moon first.
If people want to go places to say "I have been there", then fine let them pay for it (as private citizens or organizations) -- just don't expect all the rest of us to pay for your expensive vacation. The robotic development of the moon could serve as a prelude for human colonies there (to preserve humanity from terrestrial impacts) or taking vacations there. The moon is close enough that round trip radio can be used to control or reprogram robots in the event of complex/unforseen situations (remember we reprogrammed the Galileo mission when it proved necessary). The "nightmare" scenario of robots evolving into autonomous entities (a new robotic species) only arises when one is dealing with situations where remote control and/or reprogramming are not possible and one has designed the robots both self-reproduction and intelligence enhancement capabilities -- and I think we are still quite some distance from those achievements.
1. References to using a hammer as a screwdriver apply when using humans in space. Astronauts require additional tools and training to work in space. Instead design the systems to be easily maintained and repaired by robots in space.
2. Ideally if one wanted humans to live in space one would use genetic engineering to produce humans which were radiation tolerant. This not only has benefits from a space exploration standpoint -- such humans would likely have reduced cancer rates as well. But such developments are at least a generation away.
3. I have yet to see a single proposal for a single human "submarine" or a human colony to explore the oceans of Europa to search for life or provide a humanity "safe room".
They were culturally indoctrinated for years for stuff like this (random link to random giant robot anime ommited). I am not surprised.
We're whalers on the Moon, we carry a harpoon. But there ain't no whales so we tell tall tales and sing our whaling tune.
1 (short ton / firkin) = 89.1432354 slugs / keg
And knowing the Japanese it probably will be the mission anthem.
There you go, Astro Boy
On your flight into space
Rocket high, through the sky
For adventures soon you will face!
Astro Boy bombs away
On your mission today
Here's the countdown
And the blastoff
Everything is go Astro Boy!
Astro Boy, as you fly
Strange new worlds you will spy
Atom celled, jet propelled
Fighting monsters high in the sky!
Astro Boy, there you go
Will you find friend or foe?
Cosmic Ranger, laugh at danger
Everything is go Astro Boy!
Crowds will cheer you, you're a hero
As you go go go Astro Boy!
.
Prisencolinensinainciusol. Ol Rait!
If I was in charge of the mission, I'd be tempted to send up a 3D printer and a collection of parts that were hard to print so that I could build new tools on the fly as the need came up. Have at least one robot whose purpose was to build new robots and repair old ones. It's much cheaper to send information/programs than physical objects.
you know what happened to MOON base alpha
guess this will be the beta version
Will those robots be able to harvest cheese?
-it's a Death Star. At least, that's what it will be in a little while. Complete with robot Vader. Batteries somewhat included.
They build stuff in Africa, just most stays there, their internal consumption takes most of it. Overview:
http://www.mbendi.com/indy/mnfc/af/index.htm
That smells like....like.....space race on the wind. Mmmmm....savor the aroma...
Then again, i wonder if we are up to it. I'd LIKE to think we are.
--- I was far from home, and the spell of the Eastern sea was upon me. -Lovecraft-
The Japanese robot moon base is a spectacular announcement. It provides the ability to perform all kind of work and activity on the moon without the burden of human life support, or risk to humans considering cosmic radiation cancer risk, silica moon dust hazards, etc.
But here on Slashdot, many respond with nationalistic bickering and insults. Shouldn't this tech-savvy bunch be smarter and above this?
Maybe humans in their present physical and psychological state aren't meant for really space? Off World will end up being a refuge for the robots and replicants.
See, this is one of those places where we should discuss mass, not weight. Because it's not clear whether we're talking about robots which would weigh 660 pounds on earth or 660 pounds on the moon (which would be about 3960 pounds on Earth, quite a difference). The C-Net article (on which the PopSci article is based) took the information from a blog post from a Japanese Blog called Node. In that blog post, it says 300kg. The author of the C-Net article (Tim Hornyak) did the sloppy thing and just converted it to pounds without giving context. If you really want it in imperial units, the correct unit of mass is slugs. So the robots can be correctly described as being 300 kg, 20.56 slugs, or 660 pounds on Earth at sea-level.
the interesting thing is the moon is close enough for near real time control of the robots. your looking at a 2-3 second delay between the command and the visual feedback, but id say thats enough for a remote control type situation. give them a way to melt rocks on the moon, and a way to do some robot cnc tool actions, and i bet you can make damn near anything.
agree with you.
http://codeflow.org/articles/why-to-the-moon.html
Experiments and other stuff
I'll see you in The South Pole Of The Moon
are you racist?
Finally we know that our future robot overlords will have a nice, cozy home. Michael Bay and company are jumping for joy and furiously writing ominous lines like "we thought they were just collecting rocks" and "the robots swept down from their moon base before anyone could stop them..."
Why would robots require some sort of lunar base? They don't need to breathe, they wouldn't need to grow plants or anything for food, and they don't require any sort of protection that couldn't be built-in to themselves, so why would they need a base?
File under 'M' for 'Manic ranting'
you want to do more on the moon then drive around a couple robots that eventually break down. Like say, repair those robots, extract minerals, produce rocket fuel, build other robots, satellites and rockets, and just generally set yourself up to be relevant in space in the forseeable future (unlike say, current US strategy, which sets itself up for irrelevancy).
Obviously the Japanese have more in mind then some tourist visit and PR stunt. http://codeflow.org/articles/why-to-the-moon.html
Experiments and other stuff
What I said.
Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
We should not forget that Japan has never recovered from their 'lost decade' after their stock market, real estate, and banking system collapsed in early 1990s.
By standard accounting practices, their entire country is bankrupt. What keeps them going is a collective refusal to balance accounts; a cultural need to 'save face' at any cost; brutal suppression of minorities, the elderly, and the disabled; and massive government spending on dubious public-works projects.
They are the world's masters at 'bridge-to-nowhere' projects. Where other countries would waste public funds on unwinnable foreign wars and dubious public 'wars-on-drugs', 'wars-on-poverty', 'wars-on-discrimination', the Japanese don't fight insane wars, don't get high, don't keep troublesome minorities around, and don't feel any need to be embarrassed by their discrimination against inferior humans.
Therefore a propensity towards ridiculous 'feel-good' but meaningless public works projects like moon exploration.
The only people who need to take the Japanese seriously are the people who live in Japan. The rest of us are only obliged (the root of the word 'abrigato') to be courteous, polite, and respectful in our personal dealing with the Japanese, and fair in our business dealings. But we are under no obligation to take anything that they do seriously.
I for one welcome our new robot overlords.
Damping absorbs vibrations. Dampening is caused by moisture.
I wonder if the software used by the Japanese space agency, JAXA, is AJAX?
What one fool can do, another can. (Ancient Simian Proverb)
Installing an industrial complex on the moon is insane for anyone. Industrial complexes make things that other people buy. Things are only made when they can be sold. The transportation costs and the capital costs of building any form of industrial complex on the moon would make it impossible to make any profit from anything made on the moon.
In twenty years, it's going to nearly impossible to ship manufactured goods around the world, never mind shipping things between the earth and the moon. ...then they will simply drive space services prices down for rock bottom for anybody attempting to launch anything off -sic- earths gravity well
I fail to understand how wasting billions of dollars of Japanese taxpayer's money will do anything to make it easier to get material from the earth's surface to outer space. As peak-oil manifests itself over the next 20 years, it will become more transparently absurd to fill a 35-story-high tube full of $10_a_gallon rocket fuel to put anything in space. Robots, satellites, humans, bombs, international space stations,...anything.
Space exploration was a 20th-century phenomenon, like the Beatles or 15-foot automobiles with dorsal fins. That era is nearly over; it's not just beginning. Sorry to puncture your bubble and fantasies, but truth is truth.
Its been on my to-read list but damnit, now I'm compelled to move it up the list. I still have yet to read "Friday", "Starship Troopers" and "Time Enough for Love" + books from several other authors. I've already read "Stranger in a Strange Land".
are you thick?
This 'idea' is stolen from the film 'Moon', guess they enjoyed it. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_(film)
Can't wait for the TV show of this! Those Japanese have crazy shows.
You'll have to excuse my [sigh],
Please excuse my {sigh} at the infinite inability of spacefaring Slashdaughters to understand contemporary political and economic reality.
If you combine all commercially rendered space services, and then also add all the funding scientific missions get, you're at a multi trillion market a year.
There is no market. Space funding is a government expense. It doesn't follow any of the economic rules that compose markets. It's all liabilities with no assets. It's not an investment with a reasonable expected rate of return. Governments fund space exploration because no business will do it. Governments do it for 'national prestige', military advantage, or old-fashioned corruption. There is no multi-trillion market in space, there is no market at all. There never has been and there never will be a commercially-successful business venture (that is, one that is not government subsided) in space.
Building an industrial complex on the moon doesn't help you lift things off earth. What it does do is let you launch things off the moon, into earth orbit and elsewhere, quite easily.
The cost of getting manufactured items and industrial complexes to the moon in the first place far exceeds any reduced cost of getting things from the moon to earth orbit.
If you can build and launch things off the moon, you can suddenly offer a service that is worth trillions a year in Earth dollars, at a marginal cost.
What, precisely, is that service? There is nothing on the moon. Spending hundreds of billions of dollars to put things on the moon is not going to turn into trillions of value by sending them back, regardless of marginal cost.
Yes, there is an up-front investment to make it happen. Yes that investment is rather large.
I'm going to assume that there is an American on the other end of this conversation. 20th-century Americans are prone to economic fantasy because they have lived their whole lives inside one. What they don't realize is that their country and their government is broke. There is no trillion dollars for space explorations. There is no trillion dollars for anything. There is no trillion dollars left anywhere in the USA.
There WAS a trillion dollars spent on a Iraq-Afghanistan war that accomplished nothing. There was a trillion dollars spent on maintaining the fantasy that some Wall Street banks and investment firms are too big to fail. There was a trillion dollars spent giving $600,000 mortgages to janitors. There was a trillion dollars spent on federal government budget deficits. Money is not a physical good. Money can be created out of nothing and can disappear back to nothing. Technical people never understand this. They don't study economics, and they don't understand economics.
There was trillions of dollars unwisely spent...and 'there was' means the past. America was rich, now it's not. There was money in the past but there isn't going to be in the future. The trillions of dollars that 20th-century American space enthusiasts believe could and should be spent on the glorious future in space and it's endless possiblities for the betterment of humanity doesn't exist. It's spent-- it's gone. The Burger Kings and endless suburban strip malls is what you got for it. It's all that you're going to get. This is the great tragedy that is America and what it could have been, but isn't and now never will be.
Space Exploration is a 20th century American quasi-religion that is beginning to manifest itself as a mental disease among those people who believed it too strongly.
COLONY DROP! AAAAH!
Hubble was not designed for robot maintenance in mind. If we went towards robotics over silly humans our robotics would have advanced quicker than it has and the impact on the whole culture of space technology would be such that Hubble would have unintentionally been altered to be more serviceable. Again, the robotics would have been further than they are today had the money and brain power focused upon that.
The Olympics is FAR FAR more important than advancements in robotics technology! What do you think is funding those next gen performance enhancement drugs? Or those great new shoes ... that make me feel like I can play better? Think of all those consumers who eat Wheaties instead of lesser foods because of the Olympians on the box! Plus we just knocked Canada into another 30+ year debt so they are even less ahead of the USA than they already are... ;-) Furthermore, they didn't put that money into technologies that would replace the need for all that tar extraction they are doing up there! Why think when you can just pollute?
Democracy Now! - uncensored, anti-establishment news
Mod parent up!
OK.
The Moon is a Harsh Mistress is important.
Starship Troopers has mainly had it's innovative elements incorporated into popular culture, but it's a good read with a few important ideas about responsibility. (Don't know if I agree, but they're important anyway.)
Time Enough for Love should be read in the context of the rest of the Future History series, esp. Methuselah's Children. In that context it's good.
Friday is entertaining, but trivial.
And, to give you context, Stranger in a Strange Land was important in it's time, but people took it too seriously in ways it was never intended to be taken. It played an important part in the reassessing of sexual morality that took place during the 1960's-70's, but it isn't currently significant. (Much less significant than "If this goes on..." from the Future History series.
Only problem is, the Future History series is sadly dated. Things didn't work out that way, so the earlier stories in the series are difficult to read now. (Too depressing...still, there are also calamities that have been avoided. "Blowups Happen" didn't happen.)
I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
Just because they are sending robots there NOW, doesn't mean that one day (relatively) soon they won't be sending humans up there too.
Having robots build a base for robots is just a step in the process of robots building bases for humans.
On the Moon and at other places.
Also, once Lunar construction permits start being handed out they will be in advantage over everyone else.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Industrial complexes make things that other people need.
There are plenty of raw materials on the Moon valuable enough to be catapulted back to Earth.
Not to mention how much easier it would be to launch satellites and orbital bases from the Moon into Earth's orbit than from the surface of the Earth.
Heck, energy beaming satellites could become a reality pretty soon once you have the resources to build them on the Lunar surface.
Perhaps even just in time to coincide with that peak oil manifestation you mention.
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
I forgot to add The PuppetMasters to my list. Anyway, yeah I know SinSL was taken too seriously as its impact on the '60 and '70s. A whole real life "All World" religion was created, based on the novel. I don't read sci-fi just for its relevance to current real world situations. I read it for entertainment, concept, as well as for its cultural affect on past/present. (ex: did you know the cover art for Led Zepplin's "Houses of the Holy" comes from Childhood's End? the word "Grok" was first termed in SiaSL? the definition of "Avatar" was first described in SnowCrash?) Thanks for the tip about the Future History series...Your not the first to suggest I should read Methuselah's Children before TEfL.
What, precisely, is that service? There is nothing on the moon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonization_of_the_Moon#Exporting_material_to_Earth
Exporting material to Earth in trade from the Moon is more problematic due to the cost of transportation which will vary greatly if the Moon is industrially developed (see above).
One suggested candidate is Helium-3 from the solar wind, which has accumulated on the Moon's surface over billions of years, and which is rare on Earth.
Helium is present in the lunar regolith in quantities of ten to a hundred (weight) parts per million, and 0.003 to 1 percent of this amount (depending on soil).
2006 market price for He-3 was about $46,500 per troy ounce ($1500/gram, $1.5M/kg), more than 120 times the value per unit weight of Gold and over eight times the value of Rhodium.
In the long term future He-3 may prove to be a desirable fuel in thermonuclear fusion reactors.
$1.5 million per kilo sounds a bit pricey for a lot of "nothing".
Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens
Its interest is not for earth-based power generation, but for fusion propulsion. Being aneutronic is quite important for a fusion engine, because you cannot use neutrons for propulsion - you cannot direct their flow by magnets. So 80% of D-T energy is not usable for propulsion. With D-D, this drops to 40% , and Deuterium is quite abundant.
This so Project Daedalus and afaik other fusion propulsion designs used D-He3 fuel.
Have no idea if Moon is a good place to collect it though, rather than say Jupiter; Daedalus would use the latter, but today He3 is thought to be much more available on the Moon then what was the assumption in the 70s. Boron fusion might conceivably work, but it is much more speculative a suggestion, so He3 is the most plausable way, currently at least.
Current fusion propulsion design project, Icarus, will consider whether mining the Moon is a good option, so its not a ridiculous approach.
Better corner the market on signs that say "ROBOTS ONLY--no carbon-based units
allowed. This means YOU!" How many doors on that moonbase again?
WARNING: Smartphones have side effects--most of them undocumented.
-1 Dumb Argument.
Until we've created another Earth-like environment that is *completely* independent of Earth for supplies, then we're just wasting time up there. We need to start sending the robots for research now, so we can send more to terraform for us. Once they (and other helpers such as synthetic or genetically engineered bacteria) have terraformed an off-planet living space for us (Mars is the likely candidate), *then* we'll get some of our fragile human bodies out into an off-site backup.
I often wonder what the US could of done for space travel with the money they've spent on Iraq (with little return). Something in the range of 1 Trillion?
Japanese politicians were mesmerized by the Disney/Pixar film WALL-E.
So entranced were they, that they have set about as national policy to build shit-piles, like those seen in the film WALL-E, on the moon.
To them, it is the next logical step in home gardening and to avoid a decision on the contentious Futenma issue.
A moon base built by robots, for robots!
Jonny 5 Alive!
Or even the potential for a new world war?
It still hasn't been established what to do with the moon when it comes to 'ownership'. Okay I have a patent pending on it, but hey, what are you going to do about it ;)
No seriously, if the Chinese want the moon you can bet your ass that the US wants it too.
I for one are slightly worried about this!
Be yourself and aim high!
and Greedo schoots first................. hmm that sounds odd somehow........