Slashdot Mirror
Thumbprints Used To Check Books Out of School Library
krou writes "Junior students at Higher Lane Primary in Whitefield, Greater Manchester, are in a trial of a system that uses their thumbprints to check out and return books from a library. The thumbprints are 'digitally transformed into electronic codes, which can then be recognized by a computer program.' The system was developed by Microsoft, and is being trialled elsewhere in the country. NO2ID condemned the system, saying it was appalling, and that 'It conditions children to hand over sensitive personal information.' The headmaster has defended the scheme, saying, 'We have researched this scheme thoroughly. It is a biometric recognition system and no image of a fingerprint is ever stored. It is a voluntary system. The thumbprint creates a mathematical template. All parents have been written to and we have told them what the system is all about. From the responses we have had there has been overwhelming support. We hold a lot of information about children because we are a school. This is no different.'"
School bans gummi bears
Big deal schools in the UK and NZ have been using this method for checking out books for ages. You try to get a six year old to remember a pin number or library card. Many also use public barcode lists of users instead due to the cost of fingerprint scanners and in some rare cases privacy concerns.
I'm fairly certain there's a hidden agenda here. They say it is a voluntary system, but what they mean is that privacy conscious students won't have access to the library. Libraries hold books. Books hold information. Information leads to knowledge. Knowledge is power.
They're taking the power away from the privacy conscious people. It's a conspiracy, I tells ya!
And no, I'm not paranoid. It's not paranoia if they really ARE out to get you.
*looks over his shoulder*
I'd rather you rationally disagree than irrationally agree.
you mean your kids aren't shaved bald coated in a latex suit? Just think of all that sensitive DNA they are leaving everywhere they go!
the preceding post was not spell checked... suck it.
'If Christ had tweeted the sermon on the mount, it might have lasted until nightfall.' - John Perry Barlow
The risk that someone will cut off a junior schoolchild's thumb in order to check out a library book seems to lie within acceptable bounds.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
"All pupils' details are erased when they leave school."
They promise...this time is true! For real!
I briefly worked at a company which used a hand scanner in lieu of a badge. It was unwisely put between your desk and the restroom. It's no secret not everyone washes their hands after relieving themselves, so I avoided eating lunch at my desk unless I had a bottle of hand sanitizer with me.
Now imagine 4 year olds, touching everything and sucking their thumb, and then checking out a book.
Technologically, scanners work well enough. Implementation, however, is done by the foolish.
Except that in this case, it is a thumbprint combined with other identifying information (like a name). They claim the information is not stored, but I am sure that buried in the contract there is a clause allowing law enforcement to arbitrarily request the thumbprints of particular students. Sure, they could always pick through the trash to get the thumbprints, but this system makes it that much easier, further tipping the balance of power away from the citizens.
Of course, there are plenty of other ways that the government manages to get this sort of information, but that does not mean it is OK to add to the problem.
Palm trees and 8
As far as I'm concerned, that's enough to move this project from "appalling" to "kinda awesome". I'm not sure what (the otherwise excellent) NO2ID are on about here.
If I were a kid at that school, I'd start signing out a lot of books under a teacher's fingerprint. I'm sure a lot of them have seen the mythbusters episode where they do that sort of thing. It's not difficult.
I know a couple of schools that use the system, and unfortunately a large number of thumbs are "unscannable". This means they are singled out to carry cards or something else, which (like almost anything else that makes kids stand out from the crowd) embarrass them.
what the hell is wrong with a library CARD. hasnt this been working for years. if you cant keep up with a library card you might have problems later on in life. further than that why not just use the NAME of the student who has the book. IDIOTS!
The problem with bad ideas like this is that there is no way for those kids (or their parents) who think such Orwellian shenanigans set a bad precedent to opt out. Some idiot administrator has made the final call, and now, if you want to use the library, you have to conform. This is what schools teach. In addition to mediocre math, science, art, music, and physical education; schools primarily exist to teach the value of conformity. You must agree to abide by arbitrary and often quite stupid administrative decisions, and furthermore, you must learn to accept that this is the way of the world. No-one ever distinguished themselves by being like everyone else. Is that a lesson you'll learn in public school? Not a chance.
Do you think there is a high risk of students lifting fingerprints in order to steal books?
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
How can we be sure there isn't some perv getting off to our children's mathematical templates?
UTF-8: There and Back Again
I work for a software company that produces something similar for school cafeteria use. The points of reference on the print are so minimal that we've had to work very hard just to get a decent read. The chances of someone using the code outputted by our algorithm are nil. It is completely unusable data except by our program. The bottom line is that that unless the program is retaining an image of a child's fingerprint, there is no privacy concern here. Anyone who says otherwise is wallowing in their own FUD.
Personally, I'm less worried about the 'privacy' of my thumbprint, and more worried that, generally, it's too *easy* to get my thumbprint.
While this probably isn't much of a worry with a school library checkout system, I'm worried that with something like a thumbprint, which never changes, eventually it gets too easy for someone to get access to your thumbprint and 'forge' authentication/authorization.
It's the same problem I have with the use of Social Security No.s - you start out life, and your SS # is basically secret - your parents know it, and it's in the SS Admin.'s computers. Right there, though, because it is in government computers, potentially thousands of people have access to it. Now, your parents sign you up for school, and they enter your SS # info into the local school district database. Then you get a savings account at the bank, and they ask for your SS #. You apply for jobs, and they ask for your social security number. You sign up for a credit card, or a checking account, an IRA, or an application for an apartment, and they ask for your Social Security number. You apply to college, and each college wants your SS#.
By the time your 25 or 30, your Social Security number is in dozens of different databases and millions of employees have access to those databases, and your SS # is basically worthless as a 'secret' which identifies you - it's no longer secret.
You could have the same problem with biometric identification (although at first glance, that might seem impossible), because, fundamentally, biometric information such as a fingerprint, retina scan, or DNA sequence, is reproducible data - ultimately, no system can guarantee that the actual finger or eye or DNA was scanned - all that the 'server' can verify is that the correct 'data' corresponding to previously recorded data, was transmitted over the network to the server. So, compromise a terminal (or setup a computer which masquerades as a valid 'terminal'), then send the correct 'data' from that terminal, and the server will assume that the user's thumb or retina was scanned.
I'm really can't offer any advice on a better alternative, but mark my words - if biometric identification becomes widespread, the identity thieves will not have too much difficulty adapting - as the biometric id becomes widespread, it will get harder and harder to keep the identification 'data' secret, and fraudsters will steal that data like any other bit of data, and misuse it.
The *real* security threat is that people will start to get a stronger and stronger belief in the 'infallibility' of such biometric identification, and so people will lose the ability to repudiate false authorizations. Juries and judges, if they have too strong of an assurance on the evidence provided by biometric identification, may produce verdicts/rulings which unjustly penalize innocent people.
So how frequently do you think it would actually happen?
Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
"My gummy bear owns the membership, but he's disabled and I'm his method of transport.".
which is totally what she said
Biometrics wont stop identity theft.
It just means that when you're compromized you need new eyeballs and a finger-transplant :-p
What are your concerns?
My concerns are that this is teaching children that it is ok to hand over personally identifiable biometric data, that cannot be altered during their lifetime, to do innocuous things when they have done nothing wrong. What next? Voluntary fingerprinting while you wait at, a desk set up in your local shopping mall by policemen? It's the first step in creating an Orwellian society.
Honestly, I don't get the almost pathological paranoia people have surrounding the concept of privacy, without regard to the reality of it. Your fingerprints are not private, you leave thousands of them unsecured around you every day without a second thought...exactly why they should NOT be used as a security key, but that's a different discussion. People should be worried about the improper use and implementation of "security" methodologies, not acting like tinfoil hat wearing nutjobs because someone wants to store the fingerprints they leave on every doorknob in the city.
Same goes for Social Security number paranoia. News flash people, your SSN is NOT private, it is not a secret, it is an identification number...nothing more. No different from the street address on your house, just more permanent. The problem comes from institutions USING it like it was secret, instead of a password or PIN. The solution is not to try to belatedly make SSN something it isn't and won't ever be, the solution is to refuse to accept companies using public information (your SSN number) as if it were secret.