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WebM Licensing Problems Resolved

breser writes "The WebM licensing problems have been resolved. The copyright license is straight BSD now, and the patent license is separate and has no impact on the copyright license. Quoting Chris DiBona: 'As it was originally written, if a patent action was brought against Google, the patent license terminated. This provision itself is not unusual in an OSS license, and similar provisions exist in the 2nd Apache License and in version 3 of the GPL. The twist was that ours terminated "any" rights and not just rights to the patents, which made our license GPLv3 and GPLv2 incompatible. Also, in doing this, we effectively created a potentially new open source copyright license, something we are loath to do. Using patent language borrowed from both the Apache and GPLv3 patent clauses, in this new iteration of the patent clause we've decoupled patents from copyright, thus preserving the pure BSD nature of the copyright license. This means we are no longer creating a new open source copyright license, and the patent grant can exist on its own.'"

17 of 89 comments (clear)

  1. Well... by cytoman · · Score: 3, Funny

    I'm glad that that issue has now been settled. When do we start seeing extensive adoption of WebM and ditching of the H.264 and others?

    1. Re:Well... by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Informative

      This is done with programmable DSPs these days, which means making them do WebM is not going to be a huge hurdle.

    2. Re:Well... by icebraining · · Score: 2, Informative

      It shouldn't take long, Firefox, Chrome and Opera have nightly builds with support for it and IE can support it through Chrome Frame.

    3. Re:Well... by JohnBailey · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Technicallly it's not a huge hurdle, it's getting companies to do it that's the hard part. Why give consumers a firmware upgrade that adds features when you can make them buy a newer product to get the ability? (See Android on mobiles, etc...)

      Because then you don't need to give MPEG-LA any of your money in license fees?

      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    4. Re:Well... by Kalriath · · Score: 3, Interesting

      H264 (and it's licensing fees) is here to stay.

      And it'll be WebM (and it's licensing fees) once the MPEG LA pulls a test case in court against a major WebM user. Half their patents are so vague that Winzip probably violates them - all they need is a court to agree that one of their hundreds of patents covers WebM, and the whole thing blows up.

      And you can guarantee that the idiocy that is the Courts of the District of Eastern Texas will agree that WebM is covered.

      --
      For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
  2. Still no patent-related indemnification by FlorianMueller · · Score: 4, Interesting

    There's no doubt that Google has made an effort to make its licensing terms more consistent and compatible with existing FOSS licenses. Maybe some of this could have been resolved beforehand if Google had talked to such organizations as the OSI and FSF.

    But one important problem remains even with the new licensing terms: there's no indemnification or holding harmless in the event of patent-related problems. I asked at the end of this blog post whether it would be fair for Google to reap most of the rewards if WebM becomes a success while the commercial adopters of WebM would bear the risk in case things go wrong on the patent front. By not even providing some basic indemnification, Google calls into question that it's really sure there aren't going to be any problems.

    1. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by arose · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What rewards? How is Google not a commercial adopter of WebM? How often do companies provide indemnification for complex software? How often do they charge nothing for it? How is this any different then paying MPEG LA for essentially the same guarantees, but with more hooks and complexities?

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    2. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by arose · · Score: 3, Informative
      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    3. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by FlorianMueller · · Score: 3, Informative

      What rewards?

      If it takes off, they'll control it effectively. Theoretically, others could fork it, but they'll have the expertise and the brand and the strategic partnerships in place to be the driving force. They've explained recently that they also expect huge benefits in the future from Android (similar situation as with WebM).

      How is Google not a commercial adopter of WebM?

      A producer, like I explained above. A producer eating its own dog food, which is normal ;-)

      How often do companies provide indemnification for complex software?

      In commercial licensing agreements that's the standard thing. In this case we talk about an open-source-style license that is, however, meant to be the basis for commercial adoption.

      How often do they charge nothing for it?

      You're basically saying "don't look a gift horse in the mouth" but as I explained, there are business interests involved, so this is anything but an act of charity.

      How is this any different then paying MPEG LA for essentially the same guarantees, but with more hooks and complexities?

      I'm not sure I understand this question well enough to answer it. H.264 is in extremely widespread commercial use, so there are strong indications that a license from MPEG LA is, in all likelihood, sufficient protection. With WebM there's some uncertainty, including that MPEG LA said it's considering putting together a patent pool for WebM...

    4. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by h4rr4r · · Score: 5, Informative

      None of the MPEG-LA licensing stuff offers indemnification.

      MPEG-LA is just using that WebM patent pool for FUD.

    5. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by FlorianMueller · · Score: 4, Interesting

      What is your response to the assertion that multimedia isn't the patent minefield that everyone wants to (make us) believe?

      There are now different positions on WebM. In my blog post I actually mention all of them, including (in an update) Carlo Daffara's analysis, which is rather optimistic about WebM not infringing MPEG LA's patents. I never said that it does, but I admit that MPEG LA's statement that it may put together a WebM patent pool is nothing that I would advise anyone to discount as a possible scenario.

      What I do say is that Google will have the biggest benefit if this works out, hence I believe it would be reasonable for Google to provide not just vague assurances but a detailed analysis of the patent situation and some form of indemnification. One key difference between H.264 and WebM is that H.264 is already used in countless commercial products, so if anyone could assert any rights against it, it normally should have happened, while VP8 has so far had much less market penetration but if it became (like some propose) part of HTML 5, then this could change overnight and result in patent enforcement.

    6. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by Draek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because they're already exposed to risks of the sort by every other piece of software they've ever used. If you don't want that then you should be campaigning to abolish software patents, not be spreading FUD against Google.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    7. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by arose · · Score: 3, Interesting

      There are now different positions on WebM. In my blog post I actually mention all of them, including (in an update) Carlo Daffara's analysis, which is rather optimistic about WebM not infringing MPEG LA's patents.

      It's not so much different, as in line with what has been voiced in regards to avoidance of software patents by Tridge and the Xiph developers. It's in line with Adobe distributing VP6 in Flash without any apparent problems. Who besides MPEG LA (bias obvious), Apple (heavily invested in H.264 infrastructure, favorable licensing terms as a pool member) and x264 devs (heavily invested in H.264, not concerned about patent details) has actually voiced the former positions?

      I never said that it does, but I admit that MPEG LA's statement that it may put together a WebM patent pool is nothing that I would advise anyone to discount as a possible scenario.

      Don't forget that Vorbis is part of the spec, Fraunhofer is about to strike any day now.

      --
      Analogies don't equal equalities, they are merely somewhat analogous.
    8. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by mzs · · Score: 2, Informative

      I know you know this, cause I know who Florian Mueller is, but I want to make it clear to the slashdot crowd that Google is granting a royalty free grant to use the patents that they own or will own related to VP8. You only lose this grant if you sue Google in patent court essentially. This is GPL3/Apache style patent clauses.

      http://www.webmproject.org/license/additional/

      Now real patent indemnification is very rare, especially the kind where Google would protect you from 3rd party patents. I just wanted to make that clear to the other slashdotters that may not know lots of details. You are right using VP8, you may be putting yourself at risk from other patent holders and I would personally feel much better if Google released information about its investigation into why it feels other patents, say from the MPEG-LA AVC patent pool, are not infringed. I did not want people to get the impression, simply because they're not experts, that Google might sue someone using VP8 under the terms of the Google patent grant.

    9. Re:Still no patent-related indemnification by mzs · · Score: 4, Informative

      Actually I think I found text showing there was NO indemnification wrt OMS:

      http://carlodaffara.conecta.it/?p=420

      "While we are encouraged by our findings so far, the investigation continues and Sun and OMC cannot make any representations regarding encumbrances or the validity or invalidity of any patent claims or other intellectual property rights claims a third party may assert in connection with any OMC project or work product."

      Incidentally the author makes a very good point in this quote:

      "Another important aspect is the prior patent search: it is clear (and will be evident a few lines down) that On2 made a patent search to avoid specific implementation details; the point is that noone will be able to see this pre-screening,to avoid additional damages. In fact, one of the most brain damaged things of the current software patent situation is the fact that if a company performs a patent search and finds a potential infringing patent it may incur in additional damages for willful infringement (called “treble damages”). So, the actual approach is to perform the same analysis, try to work around any potential infringing patent, and for those “close enough” cases that cannot be avoided try to steer away as much as possible. So, calling Google out for releasing the study on possible patent infringement is something that has no sense at all: they will never release it to the public."

      It seems I need to wait for someone to sue someone or I just consider this FUD at this point.

  3. Re:So its still GPL incompatible because its BSD . by EricJ2190 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am no expert on licenses, but according to GNU, the 3-clause BSD license used by WebM is GPL-compatible. http://www.gnu.org/licenses/license-list.html#GPLCompatibleLicenses

  4. Correct by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If you read their page they specifically deny any indemnification. They note you won't be sued by and of the MPEG-LA members, of course, but if there are other patents, well you are on your own. So supposing Google held a patent over something H.264 uses and decided to sue you, well you'd be SOL and have to defend it yourself.

    You only tend to find indemnification clauses in the case of very large companies, and then when the more or less developed the technology themselves are fare fairly confident that they hold all the cards.

    So no, there's no indemnification of WebM. However what you do have is Google's statement that they carefully checked VP8 before and after buying On2 and they think it is clear. Google is the one company that has the resources to conduct a search like that efficiently, and they have good reason not to release this unless they are confident, as they will for sure be someone that would get sued as they have lots of money.

    Also, their patent revocation license means that people might have trouble suing over WebM. So say Sony decides to sue. However it turns out their laptops have an ATi graphics chip in them that accelerates WebM (ATi has said they are going to do that). Well Sony has now lost the right to those patents and is open to countersuit. Nothing they can easily do about it, either, as nVidia is also in with WebM.

    Google seems pretty confident they are in the clear, I think it is reasonable for everyone else to feel confident.