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US Confirms Underwater Oil Plume
oxide7 writes "An underwater three-dimensional map of the oil spill is closer to becoming a reality, now that the US has for the first time confirmed the discovery of a subsurface oil plume resulting from the ruptured BP well. The government agency in charge of ocean science has received the first of several expected reports from university investigators aboard research ships detailing specific locations where oil has been found below the surface of the Gulf of Mexico. The government, which denied reports of giant underwater oil plumes in mid-May, said researchers at the time had not confirmed the presence of conglomerated oil." The New York Times talked with scientists on a two-week mission in the Gulf and reported them "awed" at the size and density of the underwater plume.
This is the kind of thing conservatives want to bring to every aspect of your life; when Grover Norquist talks about drowning government in a bathtub, the tub is full of crude oil and dead fish.
What's he gonna say, "You're doin' a heckuva job, Tony!"
I don't think people quite appreciate how difficult it is to remove oil from the ecosystem when things like cleaning the birds is considered futile, the dispersant may be longer acting than the oil and the median time for complete recovery is looking to be in the decades. Any solution that does not prevent future blow outs from happening in the first place is far too expensive to justify, its sort of sad that it is cheaper just to ignore the gulf coast and fish and vacation somewhere else till the pollution dies down. It may make for good TV viewing but I for one would rather see them invest billions to prevent another disaster instead of making largely cosmetic changes to the gulf coast that may lull people into a false sense of security.
An Education is the Font of All Liberty
At 15 miles x 3 miles x 600ft that's 21,314,566,152 cubic meters. At .5ppm (absolute minimum, from TFA), that's 10,657 cubic meters of pure oil. Google tells me that 10657 cubic meters converts to 67,030 barrels. This thing has been going on for 49 days now, so we're talking about at least 1367 barrels of oil per day in this plume alone.
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Good job Obama is using the might of the most powerful and richest country on the planet to stop the spewing oil.
So he called in China to help?
I'll never understand arm-chair petroleum engineers. How easy do you think it is to drive a multi-ton robotic submersible a mile underwater using cameras that don't provide good depth perception to plug a hole spewing oil with a pressure exceeding 5,000 PSI? It can take days just to get the necessary materials down to that depth, let alone the many hours it takes to painstakingly navigate the machinery into place, and that's assuming you don't get too close to the ocean floor because the thrusters will stir up the mud and then you'll have to wait for it to settle so that you can see what you're doing...
Last I checked, Obama doesn't have an engineering degree, and most of the people who do have experience with this kind of thing aren't employed by the Federal government. So I don't understand this desire for a nanny-state government that takes care of everything. If you have a stroke, do you want some Federal bureaucrat doing the brain surgery, or would you rather have a qualified and skilled doctor who has spent his whole life doing brain surgery?
That's not to say that the Feds should just ignore the problem. But there's little more that they can do aside from telling the doctor that he has to perform the surgery. The Feds could buy the equipment to help out, but everyone is so insistent on BP footing the bill. So tell me, exactly what do you expect Obama to do? Wiggle his nose like he's some Genie?
:(){
the feds could have provided the 5 million feet of oil boom for the LA coastline back when the Gov requested it on May 2nd.
http://216.87.191.15/News/Louisiana/Government/Louisiana_Gov._Jindal_Parish_Leaders_Express_Frustrations_With_BP__Coast_Guard_Feds__10892.asp
Even all that ignores the fact that the livelihood of every single person involved in fixing the situation is on the line. And I do mean everyone; having this leak be as bad as it is will hurt the entire oil industry for years to come. BP's stock is down 40% in the past 2 months, there's a moratorium on offshore drilling permits, and public relations for all the oil companies are in the toilet. You don't think that everyone at BP, from the engineers, to the drillers, to the CEO isn't worried about their job right now?
I wouldn't want to be one of their engineers right now, getting blamed for a problem you didn't create (the people in charge of the operation were the ones cutting corners), being told by every Joe Shmoe on the street that fixing the problem is so easy, all the while working 80+ hour weeks in an effort to save not only your job but quite possibly your entire company. But heh, no pressure right?
I don't think you understand. Many of the people who voted for Obama in fact do expect him not only to be capable of solving this problem but to wiggle his nose while doing it. Most American politics revolve around the question of whether (a) the government should be entrusted and charged with solving all the world's problems or (b) the government should be run by people who know that that's a bad idea but are beholden to big business. You just can't get elected if you don't believe (a) or owe your soul to (b).
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Actually, this spill has a long way to go before it approaches the biggest oil spill in the gulf.
And do what? Rave and spit like a spoiled 5 year old? Throw a tantrum? Yell at people? Piss on the grave of some BP founder? Seriously, why do people want him to act like a spoiled angry kid? Are you that insane and irrational as to be incapable of even comprehending what rational responses to situations are?
And then you bitch about politicians not thinking ahead, caving in to interests and in all other ways acting like short sighted idiots. And when they don't, you're pissed because they're not acting like short sighted idiots. Lovely.
How about a simple rule then: until you can do it then you don't get to fucking drill offshore?
"I guess the moral of the story is, don't paint your airship with rocket fuel." -- Addison Bain
Asking "where's the critcism?" means you haven't been paying attention. There's tons of criticism in mainstream press. I see it every day as I track the news on the spill.
Why's he getting off better than Bush did with Katrina? Well, probably because he sacked the MMS head who screwed up instead of telling her that she did "a heckuva job". Little things like appearing to recognize when somebody has not, in fact, done a heckuva job seems to count for something.
I want to see more housecleaning at MMS and I'm quite disappointed that there hasn't been signs of it, yet. But then there's the AG's criminal investigation, which if half the things said about what BP did and didn't do before the spill are true is warranted. And then there's that outside of mobilizing the Coast Guard, what can the government do about the spill itself? All the people who can actually do something about it are in private industry. We're not talking about ferrying people out of a flooded area, we're talking about fixing something in an environment where it's never been fixed before.
And while I would agree with the hypothetical comment that the government should take more direct control over the actions of the oil companies in order to fix it, that's actually not a simple thing to do. We already have plenty of critics even in Congress saying that the regulatory action Obama has taken and has promised to take are going to have a stifling effect on private industry in the gulf. Hey idjits, I want to say to them, if this is what they're going to do then I want to stifle the ever loving fuck out of them.
The enemies of Democracy are
Which doesn't do squat to begin with. Do you really think that the booms are some impervious, permanent barrier to the oil? Even if we assume that we're just trying to stop the oil on top, you do understand that there are waves on the ocean? Current? Wind? All of which conspire to move the booms, and to move oil over and under the booms?
It's like all the people who pointed at the school buses after Katrina and said "Why didn't they just put people in buses and drove them out?" Where exactly would they have been put? Out in a pasture somewhere?
Jindal is a grade-A politician who knows everything about looking busy and nothing about actually solving a problem. Granted, I'm also blaming BP and the Feds for not properly employing booms to corral the oil into an area where it is removed from the water/beach, but still - booms alone aren't the answer.
And yes, this suggestion for booms alone is just Monday-Morning Engineering at its finest: people with no clue, no insight and no information pontificating and assigning blame for a situation in which they have no skin and no responsibility. Even Jindal has no skin in the game, because he can always blame someone else for his hare-brained ideas going wrong.
Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
I'll never understand arm-chair petroleum engineers.
You think that's bad! You should try explaining the macroeconomics, sociology, city planning, legal issues, trade issues, foreign relations issues, etc, etc, necessary for them to understand the issues facing the country to increase their chances of making intelligent choices when it comes time to vote for their elected officials! Phew!
Which is more painful? Going to work or gouging your eye out with a spoon? Find out!
http://www.workorspoon.com
That's not to say that the Feds should just ignore the problem. But there's little more that they can do aside from telling the doctor that he has to perform the surgery.
How about not distorting the market by putting liability caps on dangerous/destructive activities? How about taking over BP because its assets exceed the damage and selling said assets off to fund national oil independence? How about dragging these people off in chains so that the rest of their greedhead friends have the fear of God carved into their foreheads?
You will not drink with us, but you would taste our steel? - Walter Matthau, The Pirates
This country started going to hell in a handbasket when we replaced a trained nuclear engineer/sub driver with an actor that made people feel good.
Simple, I want Obama to push for a law that would require all offshore wells to have relief wells drilled PRIOR to striking oil. If there's a blowout, the solution is already in place.
Honestly, if fixing an eventuality is that impossible maybe they shouldn't have been allowed to drill in the first place.
And yes I'm an armchair underwater mining engineer (but an actual, licensed, systems engineer) and I can't quite believe that BP can't drop a hundred tons of rock over the spill, I'm pretty sure they're trying to find the most "cost effective" way of dealing with it.
But what I seriously can't believe is that what is stopping is water too muddy to see. Don't we have radars and laser and x-rays, weaponizable grade sonars and of course GPS? And don't tell me GPS doesn't get that low, we can set up repeaters, heck we can tie a million ropes together if that helped. Shouldn't BP know exactly where the spill is? Surely they sent equipment back and forth the drilling site!
I'm obviously expecting to get my ass whooped by an actual mining engineer but I seriously struggle to believe our technology is that lame,
Also you seem intent on BP *not* paying the bill,exactly what do you want everybody to do? Giving them money with no strings attached?
But... the future refused to change.
Given that this high-pressure Macondo oil field has been in existence for many years, and that other fields lie elsewhere under the oceans, could plumes occur naturally through some seismic or tectonic event? Is there any evidence of prior plumes? How did these play out?
Yes, people want him to rant. So they can say he's being unpresidential. They also wanted him to go to the Gulf again, so they could say he was ignoring the economy. There's no winning.
Someone had to do it.
Honestly, if fixing an eventuality is that impossible maybe they shouldn't have been allowed to drill in the first place.
It's actually well known how to best fix this. It just takes something like six months to implement it. Relief wells and a bottom kill. Granted it shouldn't have happened in the first place if BP didn't cut corners. The government oversight agencies didn't do their job, if we're lucky they were corrupt and not just institutionally incompetent. Hell, if I remember correctly, some countries require relief wells to be drilled while the main well is being drilled just in case.
Here's the thing, a lot of things can have horrid nearly irreparable damage if every single safety fails. We still use them. Nuclear power plants? Have fun with a Chernobyl. Dam? Have fun with a city eliminating flood if it bursts. Levies? Prepare to lose a city if they break in a hurricane. Chemical plants? Hope you can hold your breath for a few hours at least. Large office building? A fast fire, earthquake or errant airplane might kill you. Medicine? Just look at all the medical mistakes that happen, hard to bring the dead back to life. Automobiles? Well I think I don't need to go on.
And yes I'm an armchair underwater mining engineer (but an actual, licensed, systems engineer) and I can't quite believe that BP can't drop a hundred tons of rock over the spill, I'm pretty sure they're trying to find the most "cost effective" way of dealing with it.
100 Tons? If I did the math wrong you'd need somewhere over 1000tons to counter the pressure of the oil. Then it'd just leak out of somewhere else, it's mud down there, you think with that pressure the oil won't make it's own path out?
That said plugging the hole isn't that implausibly difficult. Plugging it so the pipe doesn't burst 100 feet down and leak oil out of every ocean floor crack within 500 feet is. That's what they're really worried about.
They're not being cost effective, they're being paranoid. What is happening now is bad. What can happen if they mess up is much worse.
We can avoid leaks. BP cut corners A LOT, big ones too and it fucked everything up. Perhaps this is a clear argument for GREATER GOVERNMENT REGULATION.
... not really working out but its hard to blame him for that. Repeatedly annoying the right wouldn't help though.
This has good parallels to the economy actually. Lowered government regulation led to stupidity which lead to massive failure. And when the democrats tried to pass stuff to stop it from repeating, even basic sensible shit the GOP tried to block it. This would be more of the same. Obama COULD push for fixing this problem as well. But it would hit the news as "Socialist leader dictates overbearing rules on how private corporations run their business". And he wants to be 'bipartisan/centrist' to bridge the divide between left and right
How about taking over BP because its assets exceed the damage and selling said assets off to fund national oil independence?
Do you know how big BP is? Its assets are worth 236B$ (according to wikipedia, as of 2009). This is going to be expensive, possibly in the billions of dollars, but I doubt they will have to sell anything, they had net income of 16.5B$ in 2009. As for the rest, I would say that legal action should be taken only after investigation, which is underway, and according to the actual evidence. The liability caps were not issued by the president (any president, by the way) but by the congress, and republicans there are currently blocking the attempt to remove them (claiming they should be increased, but not completely removed).
BP is a huge global company. They have revenue from all around the world. As of about two weeks ago their daily cost for dealing with the issue in the gulf as 50% of their daily global profit.
Bemusingly, people that preach "government should be small" and "let the free-market take care of itself" and "businesses are more efficient at anything compared to government so get the government out" somehow seem to see no disconnect in complaining about how obama is handling the spill. shouldn't they rally for obama to get out of the way and let BP do it's thing? oh yeah, they're busy at another rally chanting "drill baby, drill".
on one hand, people want the government to act. on the other, they want to let free-enterprise "do it's thing". you can't have both.
Me?
I'm disappointed the oversight agency was in bed (turns out, literally) with whom it was overseeing. Massive failure of government.
The same company that had the resources and technology to drill that far below the sea level is now citing the fact that the reason it's hard to contain the damage is, well, it's so far below the sea level. If they saw necessary to create the tech to create a hole so far down, it's their responsibility to create the tech to plug that hole - depth perception, great depths etc. certainly didn't stop them when drilling. Massive irresponsibility of "free enterprise".
ahem...
So even if the feds had given them all the boom in the world, they still would have fucked up the deployment and made it all worthless anyway.
It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
No corporation should be allowed to grow large enough that it can't be drowned in a bathtub.
This is a great reappropriation of Norquist's infamous line, but I'm inclined to be a bit more long-winded. :)
Here's the thing: in the U.S., were not only the fortunate heirs of a constitution that's created a government of checks, balances, and somewhat limited powers. We're also the recipient of a national story about how our forbears fought for it and we're therefore generally free of state oppression. And whatever your complaints against the federal/state government (and there are some legit complaints), it's still historically true: if you live here, you have more civil liberties and economic freedoms than most of the people who've ever lived on this world. Doesn't mean we couldn't learn a thing or two from other countries, but here we are.
The thing is, that heritage handed to us through the efforts of patriots from the revolution through the cold war -- and just as importantly that national story -- has been forged in a time period during which sovereign states (and maybe a church or two) were essentially the only entities around which enough power could amass to systemically entrench itself into tyranny. When we justifiably celebrate the founding of the United States and its achievements, and when we invoke the language of the revolution... we're talking about the resolution of *that* war. The war fought to forge a modern state that safeguards its citizens from itself.
The world has changed, though. And the modern state isn't the only entity that now has enough power to infringe on your liberties. In fact, many modern states are less powerful than some other entities.
The reason we need a state in the first place is that private power can and will be abused as surely as government power can be. But if the national conversation over the last two years is any indication, we're still fighting the war against state power in our heads.
Tweet, tweet.
You don't think that everyone at BP, from the engineers, to the drillers, to the CEO isn't worried about their job right now?
Their job? The CEO is worried about his job? If there were any justice in this world, they should be fearing for their freedom, not just their jobs. I don't mean the man at the bottom of the pile, but those at the top; at the very least they have shown criminal negligence, and the punishment should be proportional to the damage they have caused. If you get 2 years + inside for selling cannabis, why should you not be locked up for good after having destroyed 100s of thousands of people's livelihoods and causing immeasurable environmental problems for generations to come - all because you were too greedy to be careful?
A very large part of the problems in this world are caused by this sick idea, that there should be no regulation of business, no matter what; what it means is that companies get to stuff their pockets, and when it goes wrong, the taxpayer gets to pay the bill - it is no more than a convoluted for of theft.
Yeah good idea, why not seize the assets of a foreign oil company, I'm sure that will go down well.
Hey, weren't you Americans crying not so long ago when Venezuela did just that to your oil company's assets over there over the past couple of years?
What about your precious Halliburton for their role in the disaster? or do they get away with it because they're an American company? How would you feel if Europe seized the assets of the likes of Halliburton for their crimes in Iraq? Or the likes of Microsoft and Apple for their market abuse? You'd probably be the first one complaining.
Seriously, the hypocrisy from Americans over the BP oil disaster is just disgusting.
This happened because you're an oil mad nation, and you want oil to remain unsustainably cheap on your shores. If you really want a solution look more towards getting yourself off your fucking national oil addiction, or at very least quit with the offshore drilling and accept the inevitable price hike that will cause.
I'm angry at BP too, but if you think BP is the only entity to be angry at you're mistaken- BP, Halliburton, Transocean, and just as importantly, the American public all equally deserve blame for this incident.
Why are so many Americans only concerned about the tragic effects your oil hunger can have when it effects you shores? What about the thousands of people who died for America's little oil adventure into Iraq and Halliburton's activities in Iraq that even put your own citizens needlessly in danger for the sake of keeping your oil cheap? Does it not matter when it happens elsewhere?
The fact is, the gulf oil spill happened too close to home, and Americans don't like to admit they collectively caused this, trying to deflect the blame entirely onto BP for a problem you caused is laughable.
Sure, there is more that the federal government could be doing (e.g. containment booms, sandbars, etc.), but the main question we should be asking is not whether the government is doing enough, but why the government is spending taxpayer resources on things that do more to serve BP's PR problem than to serve the interests of citizens whose livelihoods have been affected by the ecological and economic damage.
For instance, government resources are being used to keep reporters from taking pictures of wildlife damaged by the oil spill. No democratic government has any business doing such a thing, and it most certainly serves BP's PR needs more than it serves the needs of the public. Why were government/military C-130s being used to distribute dispersants when coagulants would have made removing the oil easier? The only purpose served by dispersants is to reduce the appearance of that oil slick on damning satellite photos. Again: government resources are being used to serve BP's PR needs instead of the citizens' ecological/economic needs.
Getting angry at Obama for not personally swimming down there and plugging the leak with his thumb is stupid. Getting angry at Obama for not getting angry enough is stupid. People making these complaints are asking the wrong questions and complaining about the wrong things. Government should serve us first, and large multinational corporations only when doing so also serves our interests.