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Getting Paid Fairly When Job Responsibilities Spiral?
greymond writes "I was originally hired as an Online Content Producer to write articles for a company website as well as start up the company's social media outlets on Facebook and Twitter. With budget cuts and layoffs I ended up also taking over the website facilitation for three of the company's websites (they let go of the current webmaster). During this time the company has been developing a new website and I was handed the role of pseudo project manager to make sure the developer stayed on course with the project's due date. Now that we're closer to launch the company has informed me that they don't have the budget or staff in place to set up the web server and have tasked me with setting up the LAMP and Zend App on an Amazon EC2 setup. While it's been years since I worked this much with Linux I'm picking it up and moving things along. Needless to say I want to ask for more money, as well as more resources (as well as a better title that fits my roles), but what is the best way to go about this? Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT."
In this economy, You are pretty replaceble, according to what you say your skills are. So you are behind the eightball.
You are the owner of a company called you. You are experiencing feature creep from your main and only client, your employer. Assuming you are still responsible for what you were originally hired for, you need to point out that you are now being asked to do a lot more than you originally signed on to do, and that you need to reach a new understanding that will work for both of you.
Be professional. Be firm. You might want to read some back blogs by Bob Lewis, as he covers this kind of stuff all the time.
A couple of examples
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/when-raises-dry-negotiate-hard-get-what-you-deserve-404
http://www.infoworld.com/d/adventures-in-it/be-your-own-boss-even-if-you-have-boss-037
My brain is overly lubricated
Dust off your resume and start updating it. You probably won't get more money or a new title unless you threaten to leave. At that point, they'll look to replace you anyway, so you might as well find a new job.
My Sysadmin Blog
Exactly.
Work your 40 hours, leave. Prioritize your work; don't do everything they deem "required". If you do not treat yourself like a human being, the company won't either. If the company does not see the value of your contributions now, they never will. Find a different company.
Every mans' island needs an ocean; choose your ocean carefully.
Company hires person in low-to-moderately paid job. Responsibilities and workload increase. Salary does not rise to certified-external-hire level. Details to follow.
Basically, this is what happens regularly.
Now, where to go depends on how you assess your position.
Firstly, does the company tend to give people promotions and raises informally, kind of like a surprise, or is it a structured process? Both can happen, but companies mostly only prefer one.
In the former case, there's a 1/3 chance it's coming and they want to see how you handle things - in this case you could drop some very small hints. It's a 1/3 chance they have forgotten about it - in this case you could drop some very small hints, and you might get it. It's a 1/3 chance they simply don't care.
If it's a structured process, you are obviously not getting it without banging the table.
Because your odds are slim, let's consider banging the table. If you do this, you should be very aware that it COULD lead to you not working there any more. In the eyes of the bosses that be, you used to do one job (marketing and writing) and you are doing less of that and more of another, which does not qualify in itself for a raise. So consider - how employable are you? How easily could you get a job if you needed one? If the answer is "pretty good" and "pretty sure", then that's great. I should point out though that online content producers are usually 15 a dozen (in my view) and what you can hire interns for cheap as chips - so if you MUST move, could you find another job doing that at your current salary? To be honest, 'writing articles for a webpage and setting up facebook and twitter' sounds a bit weak for a full-time well-paid job if it's a small company.
You could also ask for an agreement that you will do ONLY this from IT and then no more IT tasks. But in that case you also risk not working there any more - because there might be a reason you have been asked to do more IT instead of articles. If they tell you "well, we didn't like your articles to be honest, but we feel you can add value doing IT", would that crush you completely? Would you be able to face them again?
Lastly, you could ask for a title upgrade only. This is the safest bet. What you decide for the title would A) let you find a better job elsewhere than you otherwise could, B) let you influence somewhat the path (e.g. the title 'Head of IT developments' may land you interviews for other jobs than 'Online Production Manager' C) your title itself should act subtly to influence whether you get more or less marketing/IT tasks going forward.
So the answer is, it very much depends on the details that only you know.
As an accountant, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will slowly run your company into the ground.
The problems here is there's not enough money to go around, and rather than give someone a payrise that would probably see their morale improve and thus often their performance as a knock-on effect you're advocating saving $10k by spending a completely disproportionate amount on advertisement and interviews. Beyond that after the very expensive exercise of actually hiring someone you end up with some idiot who is not only equally dissatisfied with their job and may soon after just run through and ask for the same payrise, but also has no frigging clue about how the company runs and needs to be retrained from the ground up, not to mention that there's a lot of interpersonal relationships that often promote efficiencies that you're advocating just pissing against the wall.
You sir are what is wrong with management today. The flat out attitude that an employee's entire worth is valued by the number they get paid. I hope one day when you fire 500 people so that your can afford a new personal jet each employee comes up and takes turn punching you in your fat face.
I've been in this situation more than once. Each time it happened I worked with my direct manager to figure out the best solution whether that was a higher salary, better benefits (vacation, flex hours, compressed work week), or other, more ephemeral, perks like a new job title. Of the 6 times I was in this situation, 3 of which were at one company, I only walked once.
However, in order to be able to walk that meant I always had an escape plan. Even when I was elated about a job and would go home floating on cloud 9 there were always options in the back of my mind of where I would go. I continued to job hunt: sending out my resume, talking to HR at another company, or networking with friends in the industry at least once a week. Plus, even when my budget was tight, by force of will alone I kept an emergency fund that would let me float for a while without racking up my credit cards.
Never let yourself get in a place where a company, or anyone for that matter, can take advantage of you without recourse.
-- You don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stay alive.
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
Wrong thing to say to this crowd. Although, honestly, I completely agree with the sentiment and feel that you'll probably be better off in the long run if you do that.
And another bit of advice: don't even think of trying the pseudo-blackmail suggestions that have been modded up so far. You'll find yourself out of work before you know it.
This guy's the limit!
As your employee, I know that your ass is on the line to maintain productivity with the budget you have. Good luck hiring those 100 other applicants who will not handle half as much workload that you shifted on me without asking twice as much as I'm asking for a raise.
Managers often think that hard-working employees can be replaced easily. Those are the managers who are usually first canned during departmental restructuring because of their "turn-over" rate. A good manager knows how to be effective at balancing his employees happiness with the company's productivity.
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street. 1 month to launch? Sure, no problem, we'll give you a 10k per year raise. And then we'll show you the exit a week or two after launch. You think you're irreplaceable? I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
And your attitude is the exact reason why I'm leaving I/T if I can do it. People who work their ass off should be rewarded and NOT replaced. Why? Because if you reward them and keep them they'll work their ass off for you AGAIN and AGAIN.
"Bah!" - Dogbert
No, what his boss meant was that after the company gives said boss a huge bonus for "cost savings"(read working his people into the ground while essentially adding no value of his own), there is no budget left. If the OP threatens to leave then all of a sudden from somewhere(read boss's undeserved bonus) money will materialize.
Work, like much of life, is really a game of chicken. Thats why always advisable to have a large amount of savings, and if possible, a spouse with a good job. That way, when the boss dumps work on you without giving you a pay raise you can balk at his (almost certainly idle) threat to fire you.
Monstar L
Take a few hours to basically put together a report of how long all this is going to take and over estimate. Overestimating is important here. When you explain this to your boss, don't say I can't do blah, say this is what I can do. They may ask for more, say that's impossible. When they push, and they will, give them a little, just enough to cut into your overestimate then hope they take it. If they push and try to make you do 60-80 hours, you are fucked. Dust up your resume. But if they accept your logic and push the schedule or hire someone then logic wins.
Your company is fucked right now. They somehow got into a situation where they need to meet a goal without proper resources. So they are trying to squeeze you for all they can and you let them. The above is what you should have done originally. Now that they saddled you with this they are glig to blame failures on you. You always need to know what you can and can't do. They have no money to fulfill your requests but if you push back politely you might find something. However I doubt this. If they were good managers they wouldn't be in this situation.
"All great wisdom is contained in .signature files"
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
And every single one of them wants triple what you're currently paying.
Because if they were more qualified and willing to work for the same amount, you'd be replacing your current employee.
Never accept a counter-offer. Chances are that they will replace you as soon as they can afterwards. If you're still considering staying there, ask for a raise before you put in your 2 weeks notice. If they value you, you'll get it.
If con is the opposite of pro, is Congress the opposite of progress?
As a manager, I can tell you its this sort of short-sightedness that will buy you a one way ticket to the street.
And as a consultant who has seen many instances of the problem dictating the solution, your short-sightedness is going to bring you system failures, data loss, lower productivity and higher down stream costs.
Imagine if you walked in to accounting and announced that they were also going to need to handle HR. I'm sure there would be a lot of surprised looks. But when it comes to IT managers think nothing of walking in telling them they're also going to be taking care of the phone system or the accounting system or any number other departmental systems and then expecting them to just add that to what they already do.
I agree with the parent, you can't let other people set you up for failure. That's just as bad for your career. Got a call today for a job where the camel carrying too many straws quit. As they listed off all the required duties, I cut them off before they got to the end. It was a loser contract. They wanted 80 hours of work while paying for 40, the contracting process was a mess, then they tried to low ball the rate. Sometimes it's better to say no thanks.
That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
I think one of the things missing is, based upon the summary, it sounds like the company is taking the actions I've seen far too often of a company that is about to go under. It certainly isn't be managed very well, but even if it was, these sound like desperate actions, and regardless of what is done, I doubt the poster is going to have a place to go to work within 6 months. I could be wrong, of course, but I've had some experience in this area unfortunately.
Unless they happen to be related to the owners.*
*Sorry, personal pet peeve of mine.
This is the most basic part of being employed. You walk into your manager's office, close the door, point out how many new, important, and unwanted responsibilities you now have.
How confrontational you want to get is up to you, and largely depends on how willing you are to quit. You can take the soft approach, and just say you think a raise is in order, or else you'd prefer to relinquish your new duties, and sit quietly, hoping he comes back with a reasonable figure. Alternatively, if it's worth playing chicken with your job, you can name a figure, and be intractable when he tries to say how little money they have, and names some lower figure instead.
Personally, I'm a bit more of a pain in the ass... I don't believe in arm-twisting my employer every time they should be doing the right thing. If they can't figure out I've done a hell of a lot for them, and compensate me appropriately, I'm finding another job ASAP, and giving my two weeks' notice. Of course that invariably results in a counter-offer, but I simply turn them down flat, since they've shown their lack of respect for me every day up to that point. They're probably just looking to keep me on for a couple months, until they can find and train someone a bit cheaper, and then fire me without warning. Continuing to work for an employer who isn't doing good by you, without having to be asked (or threatened) constantly, is idiotic.
Slashdot gets worse every day... Pipedot: News for nerds, without the corporate slant
Greetings and salutations...
While this is a great exposition of the way management thinks, it also shows how truly short-sighted and unwise management can be. Lord knows, I have seen this sort of room-temperature IQ in companies MANY times over the years.
The fact of the matter is that these are high-tech jobs that require a great deal of skill and knowledge. Also, EVERY setup like this is unique. it is not like hiring a new backhoe operator, where pretty much every backhoe works the same!
now....let us say you put off the employee with pretty promises that you have no intentions of following through on. IT folks tend to be pretty bright, and, will catch on fairly quickly to this. Unless there are some rewards showing up, then, productivity will suffer, or, the quality of work will degrade. Without adequate rewards, you are, essentially, treating your employee as a slave, and, NO slave is very productive.
Say, you DO give the employee a big raise, with the intentions of dumping them after the project is "done". Again...this works once, at best, and if your IT person has any experience under their belt, that has probably already happened to them once. They will recognize this and, again...productivity and quality will suffer.
Do you want to know what the "tell" is in this scenario? The fact that the employee has been loaded with tons of extra work and responsibility, and has had to ASK for more money. The smart manager, who is truly interested in getting the project knocked out, getting a quality product, and keeping a valuable resource for the company will walk in and say something on the order of "we have these extra tasks to add to your job description, and, since we realize this is an expansion of our requirements, here are some perks/cash/etc we are adding to your pay package".
It is true that ANY employee can be replaced. However, how much is the company willing at absorb in terms of lost productivity, training, and general delays from the normal startup time that it takes for a new hire to get an understanding of the setup to the point that they are NOT dangerous? management tends to forget that....
regards
dave mundt
YAB - http://blog.beemandave.com/
You think you're irreplaceable?
I think every time I post a new position I get 100 candidates more qualified than your dumbass.
I'm going to take a stab in the dark and say either this is an exaggeration by 50-100x, or you really have no way to tell who's qualified for the position. No, he isn't irreplaceable. However, HR managers who believe that good employees (as opposed to line workers) are, in fact, replaceable, are going to send their business into the gutter. Because, frankly, the existence of replacements doesn't mean that YOU will find one.
Because I get the feeling you aren't working for a company everyone wants to work at--not Google or some amazing game studio or anything else really fun. So they won't be coming to you. That means that pretty much every resume you'll get is just someone looking for "a job, any job." Those applicants are not going to be the five-star workers. Probably not even three-star. However, what you're asking for is someone who's at least 3-4 stars, like the submitter claims to be--hard working, competent, learns fast, trying to be professional, actually getting things done, has proven himself, and who has clearly become the go-to guy for these sorts of things.
You don't want a prima donna. Got it. And GP's grandstanding is pretty assholeish. However, if it was you who was in charge of his living or dying, he would be justified in his assholishness (if not in his method), because I'm pretty sure you wouldn't pay him what he was worth. And guess what? Between the two of you, you'll probably be the one who's wrong. Now, maybe the GP is really just trolling businesses and doesn't know Jack Schitt. On the other hand, what he suggested could easily come naturally--because in the big push before a launch, people can get burned out and actually need that kind of incentive to stay instead of being reamed up the ass. And all you just did was screw him out of both fair pay for his current work, and future employment. Thanks.
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player. These are people you have to continue to work with and they will never trust you again.
If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story.
It's all about how you say it, are you in it for the long haul? Do they know that? Are you polite, willing to be flexible? Are you bringing the problem to THEIR attention with some suggested solutions and letting them decide?
Some situations will never be resolvable as one side or the other just doesn't care or wont budge. But most can be solved quite amicably to both sides with a little forethought and common courtesy.
Also, one thing to remember is that if you are going to convince someone you are over-booked, you need to tell them that each time they add an assignment to your plate, else they will continue to push you to your limits (which is not always a bad thing).
meep
After asking for a raise and being refused, go look for a new job describing your current skills. When you find one, ask for what you think you are worth. You will likely get close to it. Take the offer back to your current company and see if they will match it. They would be idiots to not match it, but they will probably be idiots.
The job market is expanding at this point. Go for it.
RLH
The only way I've ever managed to get a proportional raise was to get a new job. Companies don't like to give out raises, and prefer to hire someone for more rather than promote from within. It's ass-backwards, but that's the way the world works.
This is a nervous breakdown waiting to happen.
Listen to the folks telling you to slow down and prioritize. Have a friendly talk with your boss about a promotion to go with the new responsibilities. Ask for help (even if you do not need it) from your boss prioritizing your responsibilities so you can get the most important things done in your 40 hours... this discussion will accomplish several things: your boss will understand exactly what and how much you have on your plate, you make it clear working more than 40 hours long-term is not desirable, hopefully some of your shit tasks get delegated elsewhere, and finally, you get some important satisfaction knowing you are making an effort to get control of the situation. Frankly, it sounds like you are on a sinking ship. If so, make a plan to get off the boat voluntarily.
If the situation does not improve, this is headed a very ugly direction. Stress can destroy your health, and burnout can last for years (perhaps a lifetime). I don't have words to describe how painful and destructive stress and burnout really are. Just take my word for it: Don't go there.
He's spot on. He could have phrased it more delicately, but honestly you could use a little shaking up.
That's what your job has evolved into, and that is the pay. Arm twisting will accomplish nothing for you except a quick trip to the street. They're broke. You've already said so. That's why they're laying off all the people you've replaced and have no budget for staff.
You try to go oil drilling with these guys and you won't get a thing except a fresh new bullseye on your back.
My advice? Talk them into a title change only. Emphasize you're not digging for a raise, but you'd like something to reflect your new duties. Get your new impressive title, then bust ass for the next 3 months to get settled in with your new title. Then get your ass to careerbuilder and craigslist and use your new fancy title to negotiate a better job. These guys are garden variety passive aggressives PHBs that will continue to dump on you until you break. Ditch them.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
I received a raise after that, but my manager told me he had to fight tooth and nail to get me 3%.
This is a pretty common thing for managers to do. Give you the minimum they think you'll accept, and say they went to the mat "for you". Right. It *might* be true, but I seriously doubt it.
Understand it and plan for it.
Keep your resume up-to-date and USE it. Shop yourself around at least every year to see what you're really worth and what job skills you should be working on.
The good thing about situations like that is that they look GREAT on your resume. Just work on the narrative and explain how you took on more responsibilities as the needs of your employer changed.
I got a big "why and NO", needless to say my enjoyment of my job went to zero and it showed. I was asked to resign 3 weeks later.
FYI, being fired had nothing to do with your perceived level of enjoyment. They didn't like you and were looking to get rid of you all along.
Learn to say "NO". Scale down your responsibilities. Be diplomatic about it. Basically every now and then ask your boss, "I have X, Y and Z on my plate but I only have time for two of the three. Which one do we want to drop, outsource, have someone else do?" That's how you get your life back—through careful budgeting and time management.
Face it, it's better to do a good job on two things than shitty job on three. This is probably the reason why you didn't get promoted—as a rule, people don't get promoted for doing shitty work.
Your task is to have enough diplomatic skill to explain this to your management without it reflecting negatively on you as a professional.
I think you hit on a key thing with "If he were to go to management and say "hey I am over-utilized, I would like a raise or a subordinate or just help from peers or SOMETHING; otherwise we might miss launch DESPITE my best efforts, (with documentation showing how much he is overworking) -- that would be a different story".
Sometimes a payraise simply isn't the solution. I'd approach it in the manner of like "listen, we've got to do SOMETHING. Pay me so I can justify working 60-80 hours a week or relieve me of some of these duties with a new employee or shift some of it to an existing employee. The manager's job is to support you and to make sure the job gets done. If you approach it in terms of "I have a problem, can you help me fix this?" then you're off on the right foot.
But also realize- sometimes there are inflexible employers who either poorly budgeted or simply don't have enough foresight to realize the value of their people. However, I as a small business owner know absolutely that my people are my number 1 asset. If I can't afford to pay someone more, but I know they're worth it then I'll at least explain why (typically a lack of steady work) and offer for them to proactive with helping us find new work. In essence it becomes - "help me help you". But then again - in a larger corporate environment you'd have more to worry about if they're having trouble finding steady work which raises a whole different slew of issues.
If you implicitly trust your boss and your employer to be fair, go to them and explain the situation, that you feel you're being taken advantage of, and ask how you can work together to address that.
If you have any lower level of trust, immediately start looking for work. When you find a new job and give notice, do NOT take an offer to stay on if they match the offer at your new job.
My last job, I was an 'indispensable man' keeping the tech end of a small company together. I did not in any way, shape, or form, trust the management or owners of the company. For various reasons, I decided it was time to move on, found a new job, and gave notice. They immediately offered to match what I would be making at the new job (a 30% raise over what I had been making). I declined politely, worked my two weeks and left. They hired my predecessor back, at the same salary I had left for, and gave another employee a large raise to stay... and then cut both their salaries by a third 6 weeks later.
Had I stayed, the same would have happened to me - I'd have given up what has turned out to be a dream job for me, in exchange for continuing to work for people I didn't trust, for pretty much the same money (once it was too late and the opportunity to move was gone).
I know this is is slashdot and everyone who can half-ass a LAMP setup and update the WordPress thinks they are a irreplaceable "five star" technical superstud. But the reality is most of you people are barely competent despite your high opinions of yourself.
You can easily get hundreds of replies to craigslist post for this type of work, the biggest difficulty is picking the peanuts out of all the shit.
And come on, the OP gets paid for posting on facebook. It's an entry-level job at best.
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player. These are people you have to continue to work with and they will never trust you again.
He didn't fire the first shot, his employer did. They used the economic downturn and his goodwill to dump huge quantities of additional responsibility on him without any compensation. All he is doing is returning fire and all power to him. Honestly, if they treat him like this now odds are he'll get laid off after project launch anyway, as they are treating him as disposable. So he might as well get his pay now 'cos he sure won't get it later.
It's always so fun when people only see employers' side of things. And then those same people cannot fathom why unions exist.
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
I think this should be a usual problem - how do you people solve this?
Man up. Or at least accept the offers - it doesn't take a lot of courage to say yes.
Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
The important thing to understand is that promotions aren't about the past, you owe me, I deserve it, etc etc. They are about the future and what potential at the company you have. I've found that as long as you are positioning the conversation that way, there is almost no harm in asking for more money.
And yeah, grow a pair. You will never get paid any more than what you ask for.
Business. Numbers. Money. People. Computer World.
Been There. Done That. You are right.
It is not time to ask for a raise and a title. It is time to find someone else to work for. Go ahead and ask for the title without the raise, so that you can put it on your resume.
You don't seem to understand how modern "capitalism" works. When your boss said "we don't have the budget," he meant exactly that. If you push for more money, or even just ask, if they're really antsy, you'll be filing for unemployment.
And a boss would never lie about not having more money in the budget....right?
"We can categorically state we have not released man-eating badgers into the area." - UK military spokesman, July 2007
Of course my other thought is that I'd much rather go back to writing and working with marketing than getting back into IT.
If that's what you really want, then that's what you should be working toward. IT is a thankless, 24/7 routine where you do well if nothing happens; and since nothing happens there is sometimes a belief of some managers that you aren't really doing anything. Writing and working with marketing is far better in this aspect (and in many others.) Besides, if you become a reluctant IT guy you will eventually lose your writing skills; you won't be marketable for what you love to do, and you won't be a great IT guy either. You need experience in your chosen field if you want to develop professionally, and if you don't want a career in IT then don't go for it. If the company doesn't want you any more in the writing/marketing position then look for another job before it's too late.
This is pretty easy to handle:
Find out what the fair salary is for your job, call that X. Tell your boss that you thought about what he said, and after reviewing salary information, it seems like X + 10% would be fair.
A lot of people are telling you to man up, but not how to do it. You are afraid to hurt your boss. Be more afraid to hurt your (possibly future) children by depriving them of a great college education, or the backing of their first business venture, etc, because you didn't earn a fair wage. Put the lives of people you love before the life of your boss, who is clearly prepared to do the right thing anyway.
"Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
Disagree. This is a "Never ascribe to malice that which can be explained by incompetence" situation.
We know where leadership by an anti-intellectual "strongman" who scapegoats minorities and likes boisterous rallies goes
It's true -- the respect MUST go both ways. If it doesn't you were screwed before you asked the question. I get the feeling the original topic poster is just seeking confirmation that he should look elsewhere... and as they say, it is easier to find a job when you already have one than not. So start looking.
Also, the company shows all the signs of immanent collapse. You should be looking for another job for that reason alone. I have seen a lot of companies failing in much the same ways. I once worked for a company who was paying their employees from investment capital when they were supposed to be running a stable business. I knew the money would run out before long... it did.
This is exactly how you handle this kind of thing.
The last time it happened to me (I was leading a small team who was asked to do more and more--and then kept getting flak for things falling through the cracks), I had my folks document--conservatively--how much time was being spent on tasks. It was a simple case of the management just plain not knowing how many intermediary steps there were between "do this" and "it's done."
I brought this material to a private meeting with my boss, explained our situation earnestly, and provided documentation of what we were doing. I made it very clear that we actually agreed that much of this stuff needed to get done, but that there physically wasn't enough man power or time to do it. I told him that some of my best people were looking to leave, and explained how much we--the company--would suffer if we let that happen. I then just basically said "Something's got to give. We need to take one of these projects and re-assign it or we need to be pulled off something, or we need more hands." I didn't bring money up at all, because money doesn't even mean anything when you physically cannot complete the tasks in front of you.
Anyway, it went well. He very honestly didn't know what was going on, and appreciated that I approached it from a "we have a problem, and here are some ideas on fixing it" standpoint, not a "this is bullshit and you fucking suck" standpoint (although that was the standpoint we often had amongst ourselves.).
If that doesn't work, if the response is "Well, buddy, I'm sorry, but that's life in the big city with the big boys in the big company, and this stuff has to get done" then remember that "this stuff" is not "your stuff." You're an employee. The owners need this stuff done; you need money. That's all. You have no relationship with "this stuff."
I agree that you should never threaten your employer. These are people, and even when they're incompetent, they're just normal folks. You pull a dick move and they aren't going to like it. You're shooting yourself in the foot. You might get the raise, but it also might be the last one you ever get. Being liked/respected by your organizational superiors makes things a lot easier in life. Don't be a dick. Be a team player.
What about the other way? Your boss has hired you to build a shed but by the time the project is done your building a mansion and they haven't giving you any more resources to do so. That shows that management is manipulative hiring a guy to to a job but then over time they can get job b, c and d as well for free.
The best way is to do some research on who is hiring some one to do what your doing and what they are offering or how many people they need to hire to do what your doing. 3 guys at 40k a year to replace you sure makes your 10% increase request look very reasonable.
I'm sorry but he's right. He said it in a horribly tactless way, but to use a project launch as leverage is to show that you're manipulative and not a team player.
In other words, he'd be perfect in management?
If he uses the project as leverage, he's cold and manipulative. If he doesn't, he's a fool, perfect candidate to be manipulated by management into increasingly many job duties, with no improvement in pay, or recognition for performance.
You think companies believe that being manipulative is bad?
Companies exist to manipulate their prospective customers to buy product from them
This isn't quite as nuts as it reads.
If you, dear reader, aren't really very good at your job and are paid well already, yeah, sit down and do your job. You're already paid fairly.
If, however the OP's assertions are true and he was hired for one job and is now doing 2 or 3 others capably and at a rate far below market, any manager that acts this way deserves a one way ticket to the street.
Look, realistically appropriate pay is whatever is reasonable to the parties involved. If you get a genius right out of high school who can do the work of three senior guys for peanuts, you're not going to pay him $150k. Period. He's thrilled to get a lot less. If you've got a guy who is doing $120,000 worth of work and wants to make more than $40,000, you're a flat dumbass if you don't give him a raise. He'll probably be thrilled to get $50,000 and you're still $70,000 in the black.
FWIW, been there done that. Asked for a well justified raise and didn't get it. I think they offered me 8% or so. I left and doubled my salary.
Honestly, if you're that good have a casual conversation and feel the company out. If they're not going to do anything for you, leave. By the way, dear manager, that's the equivalent of firing you, and bad managers are the #1 reason people leave.
When people say "not a team player" in this context what it really means is that they won't overwork themselves in order to increase the value for equity holders. In other words, they aren't willing to give you what you haven't paid for.
Unless you have a huge equity stake then don't bother being a "team player". Because your "coach" will cut you from the team without a second thought. One way loyalty isn't loyalty.
"Where quality is like a dead stinking rat - you just can't miss it."
I've worked for years in the ICT business, without getting serious compensation.
I've felt the evolution of "love ICT" to "like ICT" to "work in ICT" to almost "hate to work in ICT" ...
Maybe a good question is .. how to get rid of the stress, the burnout and the depression added to it?
The best advice I can give in this; don't wait to long to jump ships when it gets ackward or you'll be the victim of it.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
No kidding.
And given the original poster's words, it would appear this is a "small company". Chances are he was initially hired as a stand in or for a limited role/limited responsibility, and they hit hard times. He was hired as an "Online Content Writer" (whatever the fuck that is) and is, in essence, a "tech writer".
This is a job the vast majority of technically inclined people could perform - yet not everyone (nevermind the majority of tech writers) can come close to hacking the other responsibilities he's been able to put under his belt. If he's not gotten any raise at all, chances are he's "vastly underpaid", and there's little chance they could find someone to fill his shoes at all - never mind anywhere near his salary.
I've seen these job postings. They go something like this (I'm sure you've seen them, too):
Wanted: IT Professional
Must be proficient in Microsoft Office, Visio, Sharepoint, Powerpoint, etc.
Successful candidate will be responsible for routine documentation of our entire product line. Weekly articles for online publication will also be necessary.
Must have 2-3+ years administering Windows desktops and Linux servers. Must be comfortable with the full range of server maintenance tasks.
Familiar with phone, fax, etc. systems.
Candidate must be comfortable with the occasional off-hour call.
Successful candidate will spend the majority of his time in a customer-facing environment. We are looking for a people person!
Salary: $35-40k with generous medical benefits!*
*which you will have to pay for yourself out of your salary. Expect 50-80h work weeks and, between the tech support and meetings, you won't have enough time for your core responsibilities. But we won't disclose this; you'll have to relocate, first.
Only desperate people apply for these jobs; competent people will be looking for too much levity: either in pay, or professional (and personal) courtesy. As a result, they won't be hired.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Keep in mind they could have liked him but could not afford to have him quit if he *is* I.T. at the company. Employers sometimes fire based on someone asking for a raise because its a sign he or she might quit or the raise is too much and needs to be scaled back. Some I.T. departments fire employees who look for work elsewhere or interview because its a security threat with those who have confidential data and a history of an ex-worker abusing it. I am sure the lawyers advise to do this and I have read stories about this on slashdot and comments supporting this.
Not all employers are like this but many are in this economy. Never assume anything when a poor sap losses his or her job. Half the time it is politics or some dumb reasons described above and half due to incompetence. If you're a teacher like your sig says you understand then. How many teachers in non-union or non tenured are let go?
http://saveie6.com/
No raise means they're paying you less each year, due to inflation.
I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
Or he could find work at a place actually worth working at. Might do wonders for his life expectancy.
What's the moral of your story? Looks to me like that wasn't a place you would want to work no matter which way you look at it.
A friend of mine did something similar, but different.
He took at 25% pay cut (from a very good salary mind you) just to get back to a 40 hours/week job again. The employer he was at offered him a raise to stay, but he made it quite clear that he didn't need more money - he needed more time for himself.
And since they weren't willing to hire extra people to cover the 60 hours/week he was working, he left. According to him, the letter of recommendation he received wasn't really one. Just said he worked there for 3.5 years and stated his title.
Both things just makes him laugh and smile - he's quite happy he took the pay cut. If he hadn't, the new company couldn't have afforded him, and he'd likely have been at least one nervous breakdown richer.
Moral of the story: Money isn't worth crap, if the process of acquiring them is going to kill you.
Actually, no, you couldn't have. If you could have, they wouldn't have rebuffed you for 6 months! 6 months!
The company clearly had no idea what the job was worth, and your ability to step in and take over made them think it was worth much less than it really was. After you left, they found out how much it was worth when the hired someone. That person either cost what you were asking, or did a horrible job.
Don't beat yourself up about it. There was nothing you could have done to keep the job except keep accepting their abuse.
"If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
Maybe employers should be up front with people about their responsibilities and pay. Doing a Bait & Switch with job responsibilities and then ignoring these actions is just a way for the company to leech the most out of you. Frankly I think it'd be important to remind your manager of your job title before you start doing stuff outside of your job description. Companies will take, take, take & give as little as they possibly can in return.
1. Most bosses would rather drop an employee rather than give in to demands. This is management 101 and why we need unions. So do not threaten anything and don't stop doing work.
2. Ask for training. It'll cost your boss and you'll learn something. But don't do it if you have to commit to a minimum contract term.
3. When you have learnt enough from your new role (but before you learn too many bad habits) start looking for another job. Then leave. Don't stay at your current job - they may offer you more money to stop you leaving but they will always see it as betrayal and kick you later on.
4. If your employer had any respect for you they would have automatically offered a promotion to you - they did not - so you should leave.
The company clearly had no idea what the job was worth, and your ability to step in and take over made them think it was worth much less than it really was. After you left, they found out how much it was worth when the hired someone. That person either cost what you were asking, or did a horrible job.
Perhaps, but I would venture to state that in this economy, they probably got someone at the same basic skill level and pay level, and will never go back to the two person setup again. People don't understand truly yet, but the workload vs pay-rate balance has shifted, and it will *not* go back. the 40 Hours/week job from yesteryear payed what today's 60+ hour job pays, and yesterdays 60+ hour job now pay 3/4 what it used to. 10% of the American working class is unemployed, and despite everything you may have heard, and a trillion dollar bailout, this is unlikely to ever go back to the 2-3% we used to have. With all of those qualified people out there, and Obama putting hundreds of thousands more through higher education, the workforce surplus will continue into the foreseeable future. This has happened before: in the mid 90's, Japans economy weakened in a miniature collapse. Their unemployment rate doubled and more, and has never recovered in the 15 years since. France has been running almost double digit unemployment for 20 years. This collapse is not the direct result of the housing bubble as we were told. It is a fundamental shift in the world economy that has been happening over the last 50 years and has finally caught up with the USA. The housing bubble was just the trigger event that allowed companies to justify wholesale job elimination. Even when revenues come back, those jobs aren't. Long story short, that 60k per year job you had is now worth 40k on the open market. Those lucky enough to still have those high paying jobs, will find that once they leave them the high paying jobs will either suddenly become low paying jobs or will liquidate entirely. Even worse is the responsibility creep, we have been discussing all through this thread.
-=Geoskd
I wish I had a good sig, but all the good ones are copyrighted
Have you not heard? These are just lies so that employers can keep wages down.
It's not as bad as everyone says.
Still need a resume to get pass HR and all the other BS that blocks you from getting to real tech people at some jobs.
Maybe employers should be up front with people about their responsibilities and pay. Doing a Bait & Switch with job responsibilities and then ignoring these actions is just a way for the company to leech the most out of you. Frankly I think it'd be important to remind your manager of your job title before you start doing stuff outside of your job description. Companies will take, take, take & give as little as they possibly can in return.
This is the way it is right now...but what about in the future? Was reading the other day that if other jobs were available...many people (over 50%) would jump in a heartbeat. With this being the case...I understand businesses are into the here and now...rather than what will happen when their employees are able to head somewhere else. What sob story will the business pull to keep all the employees they screwed over during this time when "the rats start jumping ship"?
Am a very firm believer in karma & the biblical Golden Rule...since these businesses will eventually reap what they've sowed. I hear very few stories about businesses doing right by their employees...but stories right and left about them not doing right.
Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow in Australia. - Charles M. Schulz
I'm used to being on the other side of the table. Here are a couple of things people need to understand:
I may be paying you all I can. In which case, there are all kinds of non-monetary things on the table. Days off, vacation, title, etc...
I'm going to ask you what I'd like you to do, and expect you to tell me what you need to do it. More money, someone to take over task X, etc... Tell me. Whatever I'm asking you to take over is probably as important or more important than task X.
Asking for more money isn't a firing level offense by itself. Lots of posts say asking for more money will get you fired. Not true. What will is asking for money and then telling coworkers, acting like you are on a one man strike, or not getting your job done to your usual level. Everyone wants more money. Management gets that. Asking for more money, then copping an attitude doesn't work.
Understand your golden handcuffs -- there's a reason business owners spring for health insurance, options, 401Ks with vesting, etc... If you have benefits that are worth more than your pay (i.e. wife with cancer on company health care or ownership options), don't be shocked when that is pointed out to you... and be very scared if you are not reminded. I had one guy with $28,000 in 401K matching up in six months tell me he'd quite if he didn't get the raise. Remember, sometimes you are worth more fired.
-- $G