Microsoft To Add Yet Another Smartphone OS This Year

GMGruman writes "Someone at Microsoft either really loves mobile operating systems or can't make up his mind as to which to use, because Microsoft Thursday announced yet another mobile OS, its fifth. The new Windows Embedded Handheld OS will succeed Windows Mobile 6.5 and run on at least some existing Windows Mobile smartphones. It is not the same mobile OS, known as Windows Phone 7, that Microsoft earlier this year said would replace Windows Mobile and break with it in terms of compatibility so Microsoft could better compete with the iPhone and Google Android OS."

Comments

They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Android isn't as bad as most of them, but in the end, these smartphone OSes all end up being proprietary, closed piles of shit. They can all burn in the pits of Hell.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[TheKidWho]

If they're such pieces of shit, where are the open standard wondrous operating systems?

Oh wait.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

You're making the false assumption that it's the market that decides what operating systems are available on smart phones. Hate to break it to you, but all cell phones are a terribly proprietary business with a huge barrier to entry, and if all of the present players decide that shit is the best thing to run on smart phones then that is what will run on smart phones, even if there exist holy open alternatives that will save babies from being eaten.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[TheKidWho]

Yeah, maybe in your fantasy world no one would use it. If the OS is good enough, one of the phone device manufacturers will leverage that advantage to make a larger profit over the others.

Unfortunately it isn't.

The Market does decide, why do you think Android and iOS are leading the pack when it comes to growth? Why do you think all the other phone manufacturers are scrambling to keep up?

Besides, Android is fairly open and the iOS is standards compliant.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[SpazmodeusG]

Try a Nokia n900.
It's pretty much straight up Linux with the command line and apt-get ready to go right out of the box.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[dfghjk]

"...and the iOS is standards compliant."

And we all know that "standards compliant" means open, right?

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[somersault]

If the OS is good enough, one of the phone device manufacturers will leverage that advantage to make a larger profit over the others.

That's like saying that the RIAA will be happy to sell music without DRM. It doesn't matter how good the distribution system (ie the OS in this case), they will still want to try and lock it down. Which is exactly what the phone companies do. They try to lock the phones they sell down to stop you tethering or even using SIMs from other Telcos, etc.

This is slowly changing, but don't act like they would jump on an open system just because it was technically proficient and fun to use. They would add in a whole bunch of restrictions first because they're terrified of losing their business model (hmm, should I sent a text message for £0.10 or an IM for £0.00001p.. difficult choice!).

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[TheKidWho]

Yeah, well the market sorta forced them to sell music without DRM right? Last I checked, none of my iTunes music purchases had DRM on them.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[somersault]

Like I said, it's changing slowly, but they're going to be dragged kicking and screaming the whole way. You're right that anyone with a decent service and products can make a killing, but like someone else said there's a really high barrier to entry too. It took the iPhone to even make phone designers start trying to design proper touch interfaces despite touch phones being out for years prior. The whole software and services side of the mobile market has been crap for the last 20 years, the only decent improvements have been in hardware. It says a lot that the iPhone has done so well despite usually being behind other manufacturers in terms of hardware specs.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

As an N900 owner: do NOT try an N900. Nokia are even worse than Microsoft in terms of supporting their products. N900's Maemo OS is already outdated, and the N900 along with it. They must have been planning to do that even before releasing the N900, given the timelines, which is why you get people posting friendly advice to Nokia on how it can avoid death.

Nokia seem to think of their phones and OS's like Casio thinks of watches: a simple, closed-loop device that's done as soon as it hits the shelves. For all their hype of maemo's Ovi store and all, when it comes right down to doing the work and putting their money where their mouth is, it just doesn't happen. Now they're planning new products: N9/Meego, which will suck equally badly.

The only thing Nokia has going for it is Qt, which they bought in from Trolltech (along with TT itself), and they'll probably find a way to kill.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[mdwh2]

The Market does decide, why do you think Android and iOS are leading the pack when it comes to growth?

Presumably because they're the newest - a platform starting from nothing is going to see larger growth in relative terms. And it's not like there are many platforms in the phone market. For Nokia, they have Symbian at 50% of the market - it's hard to push further when you're already number one.

And remember - when we say Nokia are at 50%, that's not total phones ever shipped, that's still based on current sales. So we're already looking at the first derivative. What you're doing is looking at the second derivative, and saying "But look, these small platforms are increasing their sales at a faster rate, at the moment". Well sure, but for now, if your criterion is "what the market has decided", then the market is still deciding Nokia. (And as an aside, even if we were looking solely at the US where Nokia have no presence - I believe RIM are still number one, but for some reason they're another platform that Slashdot never covers.)

The faster growth might be a prediction of future sales - but it's foolish to assume we can just extrapolate linearly. In any case, let's just wait and see. If in three years' time, 50% of people are using Android, then great - we can say the market has chosen Android. But you can't say the market has already chosen a platform with lower share, merely based on what the second order derivatives are!

Why do you think all the other phone manufacturers are scrambling to keep up?

"Scrambling"? They're not. There are things that one has added first; but this is true with other platforms too. Also we shouldn't conflate phone manufacturers with OS - for Android, many manufacturers such as Motorola are switching to it anyway, which is indeed one of the good things about Android; it's true that that OSs that these companies previously used weren't very good. If Motorola previously produced non-Android phones, and now they produce Android phones, who is scrambling to catch up? Is Motorola scrambling to catch themselves up?

But for Nokia? No, they're doing fine, I see no evidence of "scrambling". They may have introduced some features later, but let's list all the things that Apple added, in some cases years after they were commonplace on dirt cheap feature phones, and in some cases they've yet to add: 3G, copy/paste, Java, Flash, multitasking, video recording, tethering, forward facing cameras, high resolution, running 3rd party unapproved apps (yes, someone will probably reply saying these things aren't important - well I say the same of whatever things Apple might have added first).

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Dragonslicer]

If they're such pieces of shit, where are the open standard wondrous operating systems?

Perhaps here? Or maybe even here?

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Dragonslicer]

N900's Maemo OS is already outdated, and the N900 along with it.

I got an updated version about a month ago.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[mdwh2]

The only thing Nokia has going for it is Qt, which they bought in from Trolltech (along with TT itself), and they'll probably find a way to kill.

Qt is now their standard development kit for Symbian and Maemo, so to suggest they only bought it to kill it is false. And as a new learner on Symbian, I have to say I'm very impressed. Qt looks to be a very good API. It's also cross-platform, not only meaning the same code will compile for Symbian and Maemo, but also making it easy to develop for Windows, Mac and Linux (so you can pretty much compile for 100% of the desktop market, and 50% of the mobile market). And it means you can use standard C++, where as the old development kit for Symbian apparently used an awkward cut down version.

And as for "only thing Nokia has going for it", there's more to Nokia than Maemo. Like the small matter of their other OS with 50% market share, or the hundreds of millions of phones they sell every year. Never used an N900, but I love my 5800.

In fact your entire post seems to be extrapolating from the single point of "Maemo is discontinued". By all means warn the OP, but your claims about how they therefore kill all their phones, OSs, and SDKs, is just plain ludicrous. Symbian has been around for many years. You might as well claim that because Apple have ditched their Mac OS before (not to mention 68K, PPC), that therefore they're about to ditch OS X or IphoneOS at any moment!

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[obarthelemy]

There are disagrees of closedness. I don't really mind the OS itself being proprietary (I probably should, though), I do mind a lot when my content (media and apps) is in a proprietary format, or, worse, DRMed, and when the distribution channels are censored.

you can have DRMed content on an "open" OS.. I'd rather have the contray, but even better, open content on an open OS, indeed. We should not condemn all "closed" things indiscriminately though, there are degrees of closedness.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Rennt]

As somebody who is getting increasing pressure to support iOS in a (relatively secured) corporate environment, I can tell you that it is anything BUT standards compliant.

Try connecting one to an authenticated proxy. Looks like it works doesn't it? Well it doesn't. Inexplicably half of the outbound packets bypass the proxy and run smack into our firewall. This is for normal port 80 traffic. Or how about how the Youtube app sends a 'Host:' header pointing to gdata.youtube.com, but the requested url is actually iphone-wu.apple.com. We need to put in squid redirectors to repair the mess.

Windows, Linux, OS X all work fine in this environment, but iOS is a bloody train wreck.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

No, you got bugfixes that essentially brought it out of beta status months after it was released. On the same day, you saw the first release of Meego, their new system, which Nokia have clearly said that they will NOT properly support on the N900. The work to fix major bugs was essentially just a woefully inadequate fairwell gesture. A full, supported meego release with potential for another 2 years of app compatibility for the N900 might have been a less stupid gesture.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

so to suggest they only bought it to kill it is false

I didn't suggest that at all. Clearly they bought it with the intent of using it to build a good cross-platform SDK solution for their phones. What I did suggest was that they'll probably kill it anyway, despite their good intentions, because they're completely clueless about what developers and users want from modern smartphone platform.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[DrgnDancer]

Now see. I just don't get this. I can totally see the iOS vs Android thing. There is little doubt that both are very usable device operating systems devised for the specific needs of a very small screen and limited input options. I'm currently using an iPhone, but realistically I think I'd be just as happy with an Android phone. My iPhone preference is about half "I find it really usable" and about half "I don't feel like changing carriers and AT&T's Android offerings suck". I've also played a bit with WebOS and it seemed usable enough.

Linux (or Windows, or Mac OS) on a cell phone just doesn't seem like it'd be any fun to use. What are they using for a WM? Anything like a standard X.org setup seems like it would be clumsy as Hell on a small screen, and most phones lack any kind of mouse. I realize that some people are willing to sacrifice usability for perceived control, or power, or freedom; but stock Linux on a phone just seems like it'd be more trouble than it's worth.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

Try a Nokia n900 but only in a store or at a friend's place, don't buy it before you tried it. I tried to buy one early this year but it was not available then, so finally I got a Nexus One... now at work we have a project with n900 and I am extremely glad that I was not able to buy it. What a piece of crap...

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[gwbennett]

Nokia are even worse than Microsoft in terms of supporting their products.

Nokia are? Then what is a Nokium?

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[delinear]

Exactly - the problem is not a lack of open OS solutions, the problem is that phone manufacturers and contract vendors want their own locks in place to stop people, for instance, only buying content once then easily taking it with them from phone to phone, or sharing data with people on other phones, or using their phone data package with their laptop, or any of the millions of other ways we could be better enjoying the technology if it didn't impinge on their given right to gouge us for functionality that should be free.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

I think that there is a difference in the "lifespan" metric you two are using:

Carpetshark says that Nokia products have shit lifespans; because he is talking about the "lifespan" of a hardware product during which it continues to be updated to the latest software features(within the bounds of hardware limitations. For a pricey computer-in-a-cellphone-box like the N900, that isn't at all unreasonable, nor is Nokia's record in the area exactly unblemished.

Mdwh2 disagrees, because Nokia has been(if anything) rather retro in the pace at which they kill old OSes, and much of their hardware is among the more bulletproof stuff in the consumer sector. Even your $40 nokia candybar is quite likely to be in almost exactly the same shape it was purchased, after some years of none-too-careful use. This is also true, albeit more relevant to products that aren't the N900.

Nokia is, perhaps, the most talented of the previous generation of handset makers. Their OSes are a little quirky, and they aren't on the bleeding edge of hardware; but they churn out, by the million, solid handsets that will do whatever they did the day you opened them for a nice long while. I've had several that have done exactly that(which was what I wanted, so I was happy). Trouble is, if you are expecting the new support model, where "lifespan" means "serious software updates, not just a critical bugfix or two", they are rather tepid. Android has some dark corners that are even worse; but the N900 is the equivalent of the Nexus One, the company-endorsed OS flagship model.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[TheKidWho]

Fortunately you can buy an Android phone or an iPhone and keep your app purchases between phones and carriers.(Android->Android and iPhone->iPhone obviously)

Which is a blessing compared to the absolute crapfest it used to be.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

But for Nokia? No, they're doing fine, I see no evidence of "scrambling".

Pride doth come before the fall.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[TheKidWho]

"Scrambling"? They're not.

You're very out of touch, they are scrambling to match the iPhone/Android devices but are falling short. They just downgraded their sales forecasts for the quarter, and most likely for the year. http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/16/nokia-downgrades-sales-forecasts-thanks-to-competitive-environm/

Problem is, Nokia is a phone company, they know how to make phones really well. However, smartphones are more computers than phones, that's why companies like Apple and Google are leading the pack.

Give it a few more years and Nokia will be stuck selling dumbphones while Apple/Google take over the high end smartphone market.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

I own one of these too. The N900 is a great promise and a crappy delivery.

Sure, you can get an X terminal, apt-get whatever, Skype and XMPP video chats, SIP clients, etc. However, it seems that all of these features have been approached from a check-the-box-and-move-on perspective. Nokia should have teams optimizing and refining the whole system, but they clearly don't.

Nokia, if you want word-of-mouth and open-source to work *for* you (as opposed to comments like this), then you need to approach things very differently.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[Anonymous Coward]

"that's why companies like Apple and Google are leading the pack."

Putting the cart before the horse again, aren't we? Nokia's numbers are *still* higher. If this were a race then the Nokia car would be ahead of the Apple and Google cars -- and anyone like you dumb enough to say that "google was leading the pack" would be laughed at. Someone might say "Nokia has lost some of their lead" but that is not the same thing at all.

"Give it a few more years and Nokia will be stuck selling dumbphones while Apple/Google take over the high end smartphone market."

Or not. Your prediction has as much basis as me saying "Give it a few more years and Nokia will be selling smartphones while Apple/Google have withdrawn from the market because they don't understand the telecoms business."

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[vakuona]

Nokia is the company issuing profit warnings at the moment. Nokia realises, as much as if not more than Apple, that the dumbphone market and the low end smartphone and 'feature'-phone markets are not terribly profitable. Don't get me wrong, Nokia is still a dangerous competitor, and in a market this young, things can change overnight, so the early leaders could find themselves increaingly pegged back. But Nokia's current position is more of a crutch.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[rdnetto]

I am also an N900 owner.
While Meego won't be officially supported on the N900, it's worth noting that the N900 remains the reference platform for it. Additionally, the community support for Maemo is unbelievably good; I wouldn't be surprised at all if the N900 port of Meego remains an active community project for years. This is partly because most of the people who own N900s are geeks, and because the N900 is completely open (there are a plethora of custom kernels available for use on it).
tldr: Having a completely open device with no offical support is way better than having a closed device with official support.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[mdwh2]

because they're completely clueless about what developers and users want from modern smartphone platform.

Do you have evidence or examples of this? Not saying they're perfect, but I've yet to see evidence that other phones are particularly better.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

If you take the time to read the article and comments I linked to above, you'll see others explaining the same problem, and an ex-nokia staff member explaining that Nokia are aware of the problem, acknowledge it internally, know what they need to do to fix it, but just can't get it done because of company structures.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

While Meego won't be officially supported on the N900, it's worth noting that the N900 remains the reference platform for it.

Link? To my way of thinking, that is a contradiction in terms. Reference platform means a platform which manufacturers can refer to as KNOWN GOOD, in order to build a working solution, when implementing their own products or variants. Since the N900 doesn't even have the correct hardware to run Meego, I don't see how they could possibly claim that.

Additionally, the community support for Maemo is unbelievably good

Community support for Amigas is pretty good too, but that doesn't change the fact that Commodore-Amiga killed their platform.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[rdnetto]

Since the N900 doesn't even have the correct hardware to run Meego, I don't see how they could possibly claim that.

What makes you think that?

MeeGo Hardware adaptation project for the N900 - Nokia as founding member of MeeGo project is using N900 as the ARM reference platform of MeeGo at the moment. This means that we have an active project that focuses to make a MeeGo hardware adaptation for the N900. The goal of the project is thus to open as much N900 specific drivers as possible in MeeGo scope.

http://wiki.meego.com/Meegodict

As I understand it the drivers/hardware support of Meego are being developed for the N900, since it's the most suitable ARM device available.
There's already a Meego alpha available for the N900, but there's no UI (just a shell).
If you look at this diagram, it looks like only the OS-level components are being implemented by Nokia for the N900.

Re:They're all proprietary pieces of shit.

[CarpetShark]

What makes you think that?

The N900 uses an old type of touch screen that can't do multitouch (properly). Meego uses multitouch as an everyday input method.

There's already a Meego alpha available for the N900, but there's no UI (just a shell).

Almost. Meego is available for Netbooks, but Nokia released "Meego Core" for the N900, not "Meego". Honestly, individual skilled hackers have released more of android for N900 so far. Nokia have said that they're not supporting N900 because it's not an open hardware platform, and so they can't release drivers for it.

Honestly... the iPhone 4 just came out with half the thickness/weight, better styling, higher screen resolution, multitouch, proper app store with books and audiobooks and thousands of (useful, commercial-quality, varied) apps, working front-facing camera and the promotion to make that a well-used communication tool. Android is similarly polished, and is making progress constantly with new versions. There are a heap of Chinese companies that have, up to now, been making cheap iPhone rip-offs, but are now able to put Android on their phones and compete on a global stage as full-blown phone manufacturers --- and promote Android at the same time. Meanwhile, Nokia is bringing out huge, expensive phones, which are only good (relative to other phones in the price bracket) because you can ignore the crappy solutions Nokia gave you and hack your own stuff in there. They're just not competing on the same level as Google and Apple lately.

It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[Anonymous Coward]

So, they'll have Windows Mobile, Windows Phone 7, Windows Embedded Compact 7, Windows Embedded Handheld ... and the only one that sounds okay won't be out until November at the earliest, whereas the 3 others are lame pieces of crap.
Who, by the way, comes up with these names? Can you possibly make Windows Embedded Compact Handheld Mobile Phone 8 or something and combine all of the awesome features into one package... or will we just have to settle for iOS 4.x?

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[c0lo]

So, they'll have Windows Mobile, Windows Phone 7, Windows Embedded Compact 7, Windows Embedded Handheld ...

"Me too" attitude (what? let Android be the only one with fragmented market?) ... Nothing new from Microsoft, including the "shoot yourself in the foot... no that foot... the other one. Atta boy!"

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[Threni]

There are very few changes to the various versions of Android, so you can ignore fragmentation and target 1.5 and pretty much everyone will be able to run it. The addition of wifi tethering, apps to sd etc in 2.2 makes no difference at all to users of 2.1,1.6,1.5 etc.

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[mcgrew]

one that sounds okay won't be out until November at the earliest, whereas the 3 others are lame pieces of crap.

If I were betting, I'd bet the one coming out in Nov will be a lame piece of crap, too. If a roofer does a shitty job on the first three roofs, do you expect him to get the fourth roof right?

Microsoft does sometimes improve, though -- Win 7 is (marginally) better than XP IMO, though they went backwards with search and control panel; both are far less useable. I still prefer Mandrake (yes, from seven years ago).

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[pauljlucas]

Can you possibly make Windows Embedded Compact Handheld Mobile Phone 8 or something and combine all of the awesome features into one package ... ?

You mean like they did for the iPod?

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[tverbeek]

Microsoft can't come up with - and stick to - a good name to save their life, but that's not the real issue. Despite the shall-we-say limited adoption of their legacy smartphone OS (WinCE/PocketPC/WinMobile), there's a pretty substantial installed base of vertical-market apps and users of those apps. (Even Apple was stuck using it for a while in their stores, before they started making their own handhelds.) MS needs to compete with iOS and Android and WebOS in terms of functionality, and that means something completely different. But if they only chased after those, they'd lose their entire installed market, as developers of niche mobile apps (for retail, nursing, inventory, maintenance, etc.) - suddenly forced to switch toolkits - went after the "hot" platforms instead. MS needs an upgrade path for WinMobile 6 as well, even if that is - by definition - lame.

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[davester666]

So they've added no significant new API's for programmers to use since v1.5? They've only whacked the UI since then?

If this is true, then Android [the core OS] would appear to be remarkably stagnant.

If this is false, which is the more likely of the two, then they are saying "we have no fragmentation because you can code around it".

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[Threni]

> So they've added no significant new API's for programmers to use since v1.5? They've only whacked the UI since then?

Google has described all 3 of them (1.6, 2.1 and 2.2) as minor releases. Not stagnant - stable. What's to do? Stuff like apps to sd is a great thing to have, but you don't code for it - it's not a target. You recompile your code with that enabled and release it. Done. Or you don't, and people can't use it. Either way, it makes no difference to people on 2.2 (ie, everyone, practically, until people can actually apply 2.2).

I'm still waiting for HTC, and then Orange UK, to get their arse into gear and release 2.2 for my phone (Desire). That's what I find annoying about Android. Not mythical fragmentation, but people putting their `skin` or `customizations` over perfectly functional base Android. Apparently this'll get addressed at some point soon via a reduced-size version of Android where all the apps are downloadable and installable by users, rather than having the carriers produce their own version of the OS with crud you can't remove.

Re:It doesn't quite roll off the tongue

[Thing 1]

Microsoft does sometimes improve, though -- Win 7 is (marginally) better than XP IMO, though they went backwards with search and control panel; both are far less useable.

What I find disturbing is their recent trend toward increased DATALOSS, starting with Vista.

It's especially ironic that Microsoft added so fucking many popups via their UAC to Vista -- while at the same time, removing the dialogs asking "are you sure?" on the Logout and Shut Down paths.

So if I want to do pretty much anything on Vista, or some administrative things on Win 7, I need to answer a popup; but if I happened to hit WinKey, L by accident (not WinKey+L, that just locks the computer), I might lose data while it tears down all my apps. And at the very least, I'll lose time (either from the restart/re-login and open all my apps again, or if one was keeping it from shutting down and I am able to cancel it, then I still have to open all the other apps that it has shut down prior to canceling, including some System Tray apps...).

Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[ttldkns]

Seriously. Steve Ballmer laughed at google on stage at D:8 for having both android and chrome OS and now microsoft has 3 current, all slightly different mobile operating systems. I mean come on.

Heres an Ars Technica link as I can't find the exact video on the all things d site.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[TheKidWho]

Ballmer also laughed at the iPhone and the Wii. I wouldn't take his advice personally.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[ttldkns]

this is kinda what I'm getting at. I seriously wonder why nobody on the board at MS is questioning his leadership.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Threni]

Well, presumably he took one look at Microsofts crappy OS, look at an iPhone 4 and an Android (Desire, perhaps) and went "shit - we really have to get out of the 1990's, and this piece of crap isn't the one to do so".

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Tha_Zanthrax]

Ballmer is a personal friend of Gates and already was one before MS was founded.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[gbjbaanb]

maybe because they're all complicit in the uselessness? But the staff are questioning the leadership (well, whinging)

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[lras]

Yes, cocaine has that effect on some people. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvsboPUjrGc

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[605dave]

I was at D8, and I can tell you Ballmer was laughed at too. By midway through his interview, everyone within three rows were murmuring or giggling to each other. I heard the world delusional used several times. It was surreal watching the head of MS seem to be so so out of touch. But specifically, when he criticized Google for having two OS products, people guffawed. The group around me started counting how many MS currently has, and we figured around 5-6. MS needs Ballmer gone.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[mdwh2]

I laugh at the Iphone.

Even for products that are market leaders (which the Iphone is not) - consider, plenty of people here laugh at Windows. Does that make them idiots?

The OP makes a valid point, in that Ballmer was criticising something that MS have now gone and done. But it is a flawed argument for you to say that people are wrong to criticise products at all, just because it's Apple (for the Iphone) or it's a market leader (for the Wii).

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

I knew the man was an idiot when monkeyboy did his, "Developers! Developers! Developers!" deal back ages ago.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[bertoelcon]

Ballmer also laughed at the iPhone and the Wii. I wouldn't take his advice personally.

Sounds like Ballmer laughing at an idea means it will work well.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[mgblst]

Well, if you think about it, what he said is right. Google should concentrate on writing one OS at a time. MS didn't come out with 5 or 6 OS, they had one. They have added more over time.

Of course, he is a fool, as he has proved many times over, but don't discount how powerful MS still are.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[chrish]

1) Watch for new videos of/interviews with Steve Ballmer.
2) Note what products he dismisses and/or laughs at.
3) Purchase stock in the makers of those products.
4) PROFIT!!!

I think we've finally nailed down step 3...

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[ArtDent]

He may laugh on stage, but he probably cries himself to sleep at night. Google has made greater headway with Android in the last couple of years than Microsoft ever made in a decade of Windows Mobile.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[larry bagina]

Please clarify: He was an idiot before MS was founded or he was Bill's friend before MS was founded?

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[baka_toroi]

Google also had one and added the other over time. They cater to different form-factors.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Please clarify: He was an idiot before MS was founded or he was Bill's friend before MS was founded?

Yes.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[mcgrew]

Well the Wii does have a funny name. I'd like to have an iPhone, but the price is so rediculous it's funny.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

I laugh at the Iphone.

The OP makes a valid point, in that Ballmer was criticising something that MS have now gone and done. But it is a flawed argument for you to say that people are wrong to criticise products at all, just because it's Apple (for the Iphone) or it's a market leader (for the Wii).

The difference is MS is the CEO of the most powerful software vendor in the world. Whereas you are an insignificant shit-ass on a web forum whose opinions are less than worthless. When Ballmer is consistently wrong, over and over and over again about the one thing he should be most right about, it deserves being put under the microscope. Comparing your own ignorance and saying it justifies Ballmer's is laughable. Please get some perspective before posting again.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[UnknowingFool]

It's one thing to criticize a product. We here on slashdot do it all the time. In the case of the iPhone, Ballmer boldy predicted that "There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant market share." It only took a year for the iPhone to exceed WinMobile's marketshare. Three years later, WinMobile's share is in a downward spiral while iPhone and Android gain. If you read the full article, Ballmer also quotes facts are figures which turn out to be wrong. It reminds me more of the Iraqi Minister of Information more than anything else.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Anonymous Coward]

Google does not have more than one OS! Android and Google Chrome OS both use Linux kernel as its operating system. I bet you did not know, like Ballmer did not know, that Linux is monolithic kernel and not microkernel. Monolithic kernel is the whole operating system while microkernel is only (most important) part of the operating system!

But Microsoft does not have now more than two OS as well. NT and CE. CE is still used in this "new OS" and NT is in Windows 7's operating system.

But steve ballmer is totally out of the technology. I bet he would believe that GNOME or KDE SC are two different OS if placed to two identical computer in same room and then walked Steve inside there to say which one computer is better.

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[Hurricane78]

So you’re saying he’s kinda like Steve Jobs? ;)

Re:Steve Ballmer is an idiot

[randyleepublic]

Dude! It is like totally obvious. Gates has a serious case of Jobs envy. "So, what to do?" [Light bulb flickers] "I know, I'll make that bumptious fool Balmer the CEO. Then, when he's brought the company to the brink of disaster, the board will demand my return. All hail the returning conqueror, Bill The Genius Gates!"

Of course, Billy Boy ain't quite as smart as he thinks he is. [That's been his problem all along, me thinks.] Microsoft's technology is so seriously interwoven into the fabric of world business, that it will be years and years before things will deteriorate to any significant degree. By then it will be too late for Gates to play at being Stevie. Really, all that is needed is a serious competitor to Exchange/Office that is all of a piece, proprietary(Yes!), and runs on Gnu/Linux. I'd have my company jump ship tomorrow if such were available. I would pay $400 per desktop for such as that. It doesn't exist. Nobody is working on it. But sooner or later somebody in China or India will wake up and smell the tea. Then it's over for the schmucks at Microsoft.

Can't wait

[nysus]

"The OS will feature a richer and immersive user experience..."

This can only mean that it's gonna have a 3D display with Kinect-like controls. I can't wait to fly through the keypad snatching at buttons as they rush by!

Re:Can't wait

[TheKidWho]

Don't forget to pet your phone every night before you go to sleep!

Re:Can't wait

[kpainter]

"The OS will feature a richer and immersive user experience..."

This is marketing speak for "you will have to work pretty hard to get it to do anything"

Re:Can't wait

[hawk]

We'll still call it "WinCE", which is what *really* matters . . .

because the 1st one was so successful...

[Anonymous Coward]

late case of a bad flu

Why would anyone fall for MS?

[AHuxley]

Windows Phone 7 is the only upgrade path. There is no clear hardware path, so all users can do is wait for the next gen.
But the profit split is neat via the "enterprise" idea.
A low end 'first hit is almost free' idea for the Sidekick generation.
Now you have the enterprise idea of costumer retention via proprietary data storage.
The "reliability and security features" will so protect your data you will have no option but to stay with MS.

Re:Why would anyone fall for MS?

[Thanshin]

Now you have the enterprise idea of costumer retention via proprietary data storage.

Otherwise known as TBBC, for tailor bondage by backup closing.

Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[tepples]

According to the article, Windows Embedded Handheld replaces Windows Mobile, and it is built on Windows Embedded Compact 7 the way Ubuntu is built on Linux and X11. This makes two operating systems (Windows Phone 7 and Windows EH) for handheld devices such as phones, PDAs, and handheld barcode scanners. But compare to Google's own mobile operating systems Chrome OS and Android.

Re:Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[Tapewolf]

So would this be a fair assessment for someone familiar with the current product lineup?

1. WEC7 is a rebranding/retread of Windows CE 6. There will be industrial PDAs using it like the MC55, Psion Ikon, DAPtech etc
2. WEH is basically the Windows Mobile shell on top of WEC7, just as WM6 was the shell on top of CE5. In theory it should be possible to recompile/port existing C++ codebases and will be a useful upgrade path for large corporations who currently run their bespoke stocktaking/delivery/survey applications on top of WM6.
3. Windows Phone 7 is a completely new offering built on the WEC7 kernel. It has a locked-down userland aimed at being flashy for the consumer market which cannot run native code (and is useless if you have 8 years of C++ codebase you want to run on it).

Re:Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[tepples]

cannot run native code (and is useless if you have 8 years of C++ codebase you want to run on it)

You're supposed to port your C++ codebase such that all array accesses and pointer accesses go through templates. Then the templates are implemented twice: in terms of pointers on unmanaged platforms (PC, Mac, Apple iOS, Android NDK) and in terms of C++/CLI handles on .NET platforms (WP7, 360).

Re:Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[Savage-Rabbit]

So would this be a fair assessment for someone familiar with the current product lineup?

1. WEC7 is a rebranding/retread of Windows CE 6. There will be industrial PDAs using it like the MC55, Psion Ikon, DAPtech etc
2. WEH is basically the Windows Mobile shell on top of WEC7, just as WM6 was the shell on top of CE5. In theory it should be possible to recompile/port existing C++ codebases and will be a useful upgrade path for large corporations who currently run their bespoke stocktaking/delivery/survey applications on top of WM6.
3. Windows Phone 7 is a completely new offering built on the WEC7 kernel. It has a locked-down userland aimed at being flashy for the consumer market which cannot run native code (and is useless if you have 8 years of C++ codebase you want to run on it).

That list also gives one a glimpse of what is wrong with Windows Mobile in general. It is clunky, unintuitive and fragmented. It seems I can't pick up two phones purportedly running the same version of the same Windows Mobile OS and use the same procedure to configure half the things I want to. Some time ago I configured a HTC S620 smartphone to work over a a VPN connection. It took quite a while to figure out the clunky UI and the badly documented process needed to accomplish this (Mostly HTC's fault for writing a crappy manual) but it worked fine in the end. Recently the thing broke down and I was provided with another type of HTC smartphone of the same vintage running the same OS version but the configuration process was totally different. Although it usually ends up working OK if you have the patience to do battle with the UI and read the (often) crappy user manual, I passionately hate setting up and configuring Windows Mobile.

Re:Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[Tapewolf]

You're supposed to port your C++ codebase such that all array accesses and pointer accesses go through templates. Then the templates are implemented twice: in terms of pointers on unmanaged platforms (PC, Mac, Apple iOS, Android NDK) and in terms of C++/CLI handles on .NET platforms (WP7, 360).

An interesting approach, I hadn't considered that. However, I had a look and about half of the software I'm responsible for is C, mostly in the form of OSS libraries like libpng, libjpeg, zlib and the commercial version of SQlite. Porting them once to that design might work but keeping them in lockstep with the main source tree would require more staff...

If the app was a properly-structured by-the-book C++ program that didn't use any external libraries, that approach would probably work (except on things like PalmOS which IIRC doesn't/didn't support any advanced C++ stuff).
Then again, I'm not sure how well it would cope with the function pointers in the script interpreter, the DLL/.sh plugins and at the end of the day, I'm not sure there's a C++ compiler for WP7 at all, targeting either native or bytecode...

Re:Windows EH and Windows Phone 7 are two

[tepples]

about half of the software I'm responsible for is C, mostly in the form of OSS libraries like libpng, libjpeg, zlib and the commercial version of SQlite.

Then write a library that wraps libpng on unmanaged platforms and the corresponding Silverlight library on Silverlight.

Then again, I'm not sure how well it would cope with the function pointers in the script interpreter

There is a verifiably type-safe way to do function pointers, namely as objects that implement an interface (or, in C++'s case, extend a pure abstract class). Java turned me on to it.

I'm not sure there's a C++ compiler for WP7 at all, targeting either native or bytecode...

Silverlight is just a set of APIs that .NET bytecode can call, and C++/CLI generates .NET bytecode. Just make sure to use /clr:safe when compiling the template cluster-intercourse that C++/CLI requires.

It's not a smartphone OS

[Kentaree]

It's an embedded devices OS, like WindowsCE. Still annoyed at Microsoft for dropping support for .NET Compact Framework from the new Visual Studio 2008. I hope this one will support CF or I'm going to have a whole lot of soon-to-be unsupported handhelds on my hands

Re:It's not a smartphone OS

[guruevi]

What did you expect?

Re:It's not a smartphone OS

[zbend]

Correct this has little to do with Windows Mobile, and will never be put on any phone, I usually expect more Slashdoters to realize this is a B.S. article but so far only you.

Re:It's not a smartphone OS

[sexconker]

I usually expect more Slashdoters to realize this is a B.S. article but so far only you.

You mean people still aren't tipped off by the line at the top that reads "Posted by timothy on Friday June 18, @03:47AM"?

Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[brunes69]

Android is 100% open source. Don't like the Market? Replace it. Don't like the keyboard? Replace it. Don't like Google integrations? Remove them.

If you think all of this is somehow difficult or discouraged, I think you should take a closer look at the forums at xda-developers.com, or even at developer.android.com, where you can check out the entire OS source code with git and re-build it from scratch and re-flash your phone, if you want.

All this talk about Jailbreaking Android phones is for people who want root access but *DO NOT* want to re-flash their phone. There is no such problem for people that are comfortable replacing the software. And in fact this is what you have to do with most open source projects running on specialized hardware.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[tepples]

All this talk about Jailbreaking Android phones is for people who want root access but *DO NOT* want to re-flash their phone.

Or who discover, months into a contract, that they have a phone that uses tivoization to block re-flashing with firmware packaged by an individual.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[Threni]

Yeah, that's the main thing about Android `jailbreaking` in the future. It can be made impossible (ok, very hard) with all this crap.

I have to say, though, that it would appear to me to be subject to the same protection as phones being locked to a network. It's my phone, at least, it is once I'm out of contract. Why shouldn't I be able to put whatever ROM I want onto it?

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[TheKidWho]

Because you're on their(The carriers) network and using their limited bandwidth.

The last thing they want is a bot net of Android phones.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[gutnor]

If you think all of this is somehow difficult or discouraged, I think you should take a closer look at the forums at xda-developers.com, or even at developer.android.com, where you can check out the entire OS source code with git and re-build it from scratch and re-flash your phone, if you want.

... and lose you warranty in the process. Also you can remove limitation introduced by Google, but removing limitation introduced by your mobile provider could end-up into a contract violation (like tethering).
On a practical point of view, Android has made jailbreaking easier than the iPhone. For a developer, that's great, for a joe user the main issues (warranty and contract) are still the same unfortunately.

We only have one half of what make Linux great on the PC. We have a OSS OS, but we lack the hardware.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[Threni]

Flashing a rom doesn't make your job as a bot creator easier. You can already write whever you want on an Android phone. And the networks are already in control of bandwidth regardless of the rom. So I don't understand your point.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[CarpetShark]

Android is 100% open source. Don't like the Market? Replace it.

No, Android is an open source client for the Android Market. Download a copy of "open source" Android and you'll soon find that you can't actually use it much because Market isn't available in the open source version. Essentially every copy has to be given a key by Google to make it work, and that only happens on approved hardware. It's just software licensing by another name. Otherwise, I'd gladly install it on my Nokia and never look back.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[Rennt]

... and lose you warranty in the process.

Only on software support. If you brick your phone flashing it you might be SOL. But if you have a hardware fault (like the dead trackball I experienced) they repair it no questions asked.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[nanoakron]

I hazard a guess that 99% - no, 99.9995% of the Android user base has NO INTEREST in hacking their handset from its factory installed presets.

Apple with their iOS and Palm with their WebOS knew this full well, which is why they designed their UIs to be completely user-friendly from the time the device is first switched on to the time it's given away to a family member as you update your device.

Androids hackability has nothing to do with its market prevalence - it just happens to be installed on loads of devices from good quality handset manufacturers...it is not a major consideration during purchasing time for the vast majority of shoppers out there.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[delinear]

The carriers are moving from "all you can eat" to limited data plans anyway. If they're still overselling capacity they don't have in a model where theoretically everyone knows exactly how much they're entitled to, that's their own problem - either increase prices and improve infrastructure or reduce the maximum data limits and stop promising people something that can't be delivered.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[delinear]

Unless I'm missing something, what you're suggesting is the opposite of replace the market - it's replacing the entire OS but trying to still use the market? The original point was, anyone can come along and write their own market app for Android, so even if the official one won't work with your Android flavour of choice, you can easily roll your own (of course it likely won't get far without either excellent marketing skills or a big budget, but that's an issue of product promotion in general and not limited to this instance).

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[CarpetShark]

To replace the market SOFTWARE, you would need access to the market data. Otherwise, you're starting from scratch. But the data is locked down. Often these days, given the lock-in created by having all your friends or apps in one system, open source is a secondary concern, next to open data and openly accessible APIs. Anyone can make a facebook client, even if the source isn't available, but making that facebook client work with facebook without an (un-locked) API, or making a better, more open version of facebook and encouraging everyone to move over en masse is next to impossible. It's the same with Microsoft Word -- there are clones, but everyone's data is in a locked .DOC format, so transition is difficult. Open content is everything.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[spire3661]

My Palm Pre with WebOS mocks your Android's openess. AS for the 'plebes dont want root access' I call bullshit, there are TONS of little things my GF wants me to change on her Pre that requires root. Little things like changing notification sounds, block certain numbers, etc. All the little adjustments that palm eschewed for greater ease of use.

Re:Er what??? Android is 100% open source

[ryanov]

That's an awful example. I have a Palm Pre and it annoys me that those things were not built into the OS. There are reasons to want root access, but in order to perform BASIC phone functions? No.

RE:

[helix2301]

I have never been happy with windows mobile I think this big change will be good now that there is competition in the industry Microsoft is going to have step up there game and keep up with apple, rim and Google. Microsoft has been falling behind in the mobile market there phones don't even compete maybe this release may actually show some promise.

It's becoming a Unix world

[Burz]

...in smartphones and hand held devices in general.

iPhone -- iOS Unix

Android -- Linux

Palm -- Linux

RIM -- Moving to QNX

That leaves Symbian and Windows Mobile as the two non-'nix holdouts.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[mdwh2]

Although Nokia also have Maemo, which is Linux :) And note that whilst Symbian isn't Unix, it is open source which I think deserves some credit (not that you ever hear about it on Slashdot - once upon a time, Slashdot would focus on open source even when they were less popular; now, the open source platforms get ignored in place of closed locked down platforms, even when the open source one has vastly more market share).

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[CarpetShark]

It's becoming a unix world...

Yes, I'm glad to say it seems that way (again). Although it's more a case of "it's becoming an open source, collaborative world", which is even better.

RIM -- Moving to QNX

Interesting. I'd only heard about the microkernel and tried photon; didn't realise QNX was unix-like under the hood.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Locutus]

but don't under estimate Microsoft's ability and willingness to pay companies to ship their Windows versions at the expense of others. They paid ISP's to ship Internet Explorer, they paid companies to ship WindowsCE based handhelds, and more recently they paid companies to ship Windows XP based netbooks over Linux based ones. These kinds of direct and marketing based funding efforts have been used to flood the market with Microsoft product and build the brand recognition in the segment and I would expect them to do nothing different this time.

So while Symbian and Windows Mobiles may be surrounded by -nix based devices, billions in $$ has, in the past, been a very good catapult out of what looks like a encircled Microsoft. And remember, the public is _way_ ignorant to how bad their stuff really is since it kinda works. And with Ballmer sticking his head into this segment, you know it is going to get very messy. IMO

It is good to see so many leveraging -nix technology and doing so well with it and it makes sense. Modularity has always been a big part of the UNIX design and having the ability to scale up and down fits most business models well. And it has a history of 'it just works'.

LoB

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

2011 - The year of Linux on the desktH^H^H^H^H^ handheld.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Burz]

I remember QNX was once actually "Quantum Unix" but they didn't have the AT&T license and had to remove the explicit "Unix".

RIM bought QNX recently.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[tlhIngan]

Although Nokia also have Maemo, which is Linux :) And note that whilst Symbian isn't Unix, it is open source which I think deserves some credit (not that you ever hear about it on Slashdot - once upon a time, Slashdot would focus on open source even when they were less popular; now, the open source platforms get ignored in place of closed locked down platforms, even when the open source one has vastly more market share).

And then you'd have to add iOS as "open source" as well, because well, it runs on top of the Darwin-ARM kernel which is open-source BSD. The proprietary bits are on top and on the side yes, but it's not like the situation is any different with Android or WebOS. Especially since a number of Android devices are effecitvely un-rootable (even rootable ones can have their firmware made unrootable, see Rogers forced G1 update, Archos Internet Tablet, etc.).

Though, at least with Apple/Microsoft/Symbian I know what I'm getting (it may be open, or not, but it's locked down). It seems of all the Android devices out there, 95% can be rooted, the other 5% can be locked down hard enough that rooting isn't an option. And then there's the few where the carriers decide you shouldn't be rooting at all and lock down rootable models. Guess it means the only phone is the Nexus One.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, and Google is still paying Firefox to ship with Google set on default. I guess they aren't so confident that people would just use Google. FWIW Google hardly develops anything themselves anyway. They just buy out other companies.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Google_acquisitions

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

Same thing with computers too, Microsoft is the only holdout on adopting unix, which actually might make their os more secure and stable

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[symbolset]

They can pay or cajole OEMs to build with their OS all they want. The phones are no danger to progress if they sit there on the shelf unbought, and that's where they're headed. The mobile wars aren't over, but Microsoft is not even in the game at all. I don't even know why we're still discussing them. Their numbers are lumped in with "other".

The cool thing is that people are now looking at their reliable, capable, virus-free non-frustrating phones and tablets and asking the question that terrifies Microsoft most: "Why doesn't my laptop work this well?". This answers itself of course. It's written right on the quadcolor flag sticker.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

iOS actually use XNU operating system. Same OS as the Mac OS X use. XNU operating system is build by Mach 3.0 microkernel, I/O kit, BSD part (networking, filesystems) and device drivers.

You can get XNU operating system in Darwin package, what actually is XNU + Darwin development tools. You can not get XNU run Mac OS X core software if you do not compile it with Apples tools and configs what are releases in Darwin.

XNU = Operating system with Mach 3.0 microkernel
Darwin = XNU operating system with Apple development tools
Mac OS X = Apples software system with lots of open source software (CUPS, Apache etc) and XNU operating system running all that.
iOS = Apples software system to mobile devies with XNU operating system running all.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Hurricane78]

Symbian is already in te pipeline to be replaced by MeeGo (formerly Maemo), according to Nokia.
Which is a good move and makes sense, since Nokia is basically putting all its efforts into QT.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Guy Harris]

iOS actually use XNU operating system.

iOS uses the XNU kernel.

XNU operating system is build by Mach 3.0 microkernel,

Well, not all that "micro", really - very large amounts of "kernel" functionality run in kernel mode rather than in userland servers (there are some userland servers that the kernel talks to, but the vast majority of the stuff that runs in kernel mode in UN*Xes with a "monolithic" kernel also run in kernel mode in Darwin (and in Windows NT, speaking of another OS people sometimes say has a "microkernel").

You can get XNU operating system in Darwin package, what actually is XNU + Darwin development tools.

Actually, Darwin is XNU + a pile of kexts (the same thing that's called, for example, "loadable kernel modules" in Linux) plus a bunch of user-mode libraries (starting with libSystem, for which read "libc" in most other UN*Xes) plus a bunch of user-mode programs, including but far from limited to the command-line development tools (Darwin doesn't include Xcode in its entirety).

XNU = Operating system with Mach 3.0 microkernel

No, that's Darwin.

Mac OS X = Apples software system with lots of open source software (CUPS, Apache etc) and XNU operating system running all that.

That's Darwin (which includes CUPS and Apache; see, for example, the list of components in Darwin) plus a bunch of non-open-source software (some kexts, Carbon, Cocoa, some other libraries, Finder, iTunes, etc.). Oh, and, at least according to The Open Group, it's a UNIX.

iOS = Apples software system to mobile devies with XNU operating system running all.

That's (a subset of) Darwin ported to ARM, plus a bunch of non--open-source software (Springboard, Mobile This That And The Other Thing, etc.).

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[WNight]

You say this like it's a bad thing...?

I don't recall their PR making that hypocritical. Is it?

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

Blackberrys do not run on QNX, and it is not certain that they will in the future. So that leaves 3 and 3, with the bulk of the market share going to non-unix smartphones. I'm a fan of *nix base operating systems, but your post is inaccurate.

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Locutus]

I would like to think you are correct and people would say "why doesn't my laptop work this well?" but from what I've seen of the general population and their computer skills, they'd NEVER be able to connect the two dots. Everybody just knows how to click on things and react with guesses to anything out of the norm.

People already know stuff like their TV, car, micrwave, etc just work and pretty much keep working but you just don't here them questioning what's up with the PC messing up all the time. That is what they know.

LoB

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Locutus]

Google only pays Mozilla a percentage of the ad revenue they get from people using the Google search field in the browser. They are not paying them to put a sticker on the box or paying them just to use Google's search. It is tied to revenues generated, directly generated from people using that feature so if nobody used it, Mozilla would get nothing.

There's a big difference between that and paying companies to ship only Windows devices or paying them for putting Windows on devices by taking $15 from them as a licensing fee but paying them $20 for putting a "We recommend Windows" sticker all over their website.

Gawd, another AC no less.

LoB

Re:It's becoming a Unix world

[Anonymous Coward]

And Nokia is switching their high end stuff to Maemo/Meego Linux. Eventually that will trickle down to the mid-range and low-end phones (if they don't become irrelevant first...)

Compliant != efficient

[tepples]

Besides, Android is fairly open

Agreed.

and the iOS is standards compliant.

"Standards compliant" does not mean "standards efficient". Try to get around iOS Safari's lack of Flash vector animation by making a JavaScript vector animation player that uses HTML5 <canvas>, and you could end up with a slideshow. Does iOS Safari even support data URIs passed to an <audio> element for JavaScript synthesis?

Re:Compliant != efficient

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, as an iPhone user I'm very sad that the annoying animations I see using my regular browser (including the IBM ads on /., which make me want to pay IBM $$$ to thank them) are not available on my phone. I'm also hoping one of the phone manufacturers comes up with a tactile feedback system that can shoot the screen out far enough to poke me in the eye.

Re:Compliant != efficient

[tepples]

Yes, as an iPhone user I'm very sad that the annoying animations I see using my regular browser (including the IBM ads on /., which make me want to pay IBM $$$ to thank them) are not available on my phone.

You might think Homestar Runner, Weebl and Bob, and Magical Trevor are annoying, but a lot of other people disagree with you.

Re:Compliant != efficient

[symbolset]

You forgot Zombo.com. Everything is possible at zombocom.

Getting nostalgic...

[jimmydigital]

Reading these stories about MS lately is making me all nostalgic for when what they did mattered. I can't quite put my finger on it... but at some point they lost their big and scary status.. and have just become more of a joke.. to me at least. There was a time when their whims could shift the whole market.. these days I wonder if the masses even notice their flailing attempts to 'compete'.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[gbjbaanb]

I know when that was - it was when the big Unix vendors decided that you had to buy the very expensive kit and software then allowed you to have, if you bought a large support contract and training to manage their overly-expensive bloated stuff. Then this little upstart company was selling PCs that did most of what the big guys were doing but at a significantly lower price and with a lot more flexibility over what you could or could not do with your IT system.

How times have changed!

(Ok, there was a time in the middle when their stuff wasn't that good, but you still wanted it - ad every time an upgrade came out, you knew you had to have it because it would fix a load of problems with the software. Today that time is pretty much gone, unless you've bought sharepoint, so no-one really feels the need to grab the upgrade immediately)

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[AHuxley]

Computers are just part of life for everybody now.
I think MS lost it with the DRM in Vista and Win 7.
The 360 640p discovery, sidekick ect just keep the sad news flowing with every next generation they enter.
DRM and threats to the emerging digital market where and are real.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[ClaraBow]

I share the same feelings. They are all bark and no bite as of late. It is a bit sad like a fading sports star...

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think your post says allot about the current state of affairs. Not much have changed "out there", the competition just have new names. However, one thing do have changed, and thats the general attitude when media writes, Apple for example, is considered a major contender to Microsoft, when in reality, they are not, Apple is a consumer electronics manufacture that happens to sell computers also, much like Sony. Ever bought a mail server from Sony ? or business software ? , no, Microsoft is still the dominating factor in software, and will be for a long time.

The real issue they face is the leadership, which is a major disaster. Steve Ballmer probably have some strong points (no chair jokes please) , but those are not public speaking or charisma, Bill at least was a bit nerdy. What Microsoft need is a leader that do away with everything, and reinvent the company, from a PR perspective.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[nyctopterus]

Yeah, it's interesting isn't it. I think it's because it's become clear that the kind of big-ticket software that Microsoft has built itself on just isn't where the real money's going to be in a few years. It's reached a peak complexity-wise, features-wise, and usefulness-wise. Instead, collaborative service software (i.e. Google) will be the way a lot of businesses go, and consumers will go with small, cheap, and cheerful (i.e. the Apple App Store), and social network type stuff (Facebook and its successors). Portability is where it's at, and Microsoft has missed so many beats it can't catch up, especially because it means essentially cannibalising they big-ticket software business.

I'm a little wary of this trend, even though I can definitely see its value. I'm a heavy user of said big-ticket software myself (Adobe products mostly), and I don't want to see it stagnate. That said, I think it's pretty stagnant already, and needs a serious shake-up. Microsoft and Adobe's products are absurdly complex and bloated these days; there simply has to be a simpler way. And a cheaper way too!

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[mdwh2]

I'm not sure there's anything new here.

MS were big in the desktop/PC market - and they still are. They still shift this market.

MS aren't so big in phones - and they never have been (not that I see a problem with that - Apple are happy being number 3 in smartphone OSs and number 6 or so in terms of phones; MS might not be number 1, but neither are Apple here, as long as MS make extra money from it, that's all that matters).

If you mean that Apple get far more hype, well if anything, that's more a change for Apple, in the media giving absurd disproportionate coverage to the Iphone and now Ipad; I don't think media coverage of MS has dropped. (And to be honest, there's always been extra coverage on Apple in the media, from back in the days when the Mac would always have to be covered, even when many other non-PC niche platforms were ignored by the media - possibly it stems from Macs traditionally being used in media, thus there being higher than average Mac users?)

To at least one person on Slashdot, MS are a joke - but I think you'll find that at least some people have always thought this on Slashdot!

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[nyctopterus]

I think your post is indicative of what's holding Microsoft back. The whole ground is shifting, and it's Apple and Google that have managed to move into (or even create) this new world, and Microsoft has not.

Here's what I think a lot of people think the "computing" landscape will look like in a few years: most people will have a phone or iPad-like device instead of a laptop or desktop computer. They will probably dock with a big screen and keyboard for serious work. Most documents will be held in 'the cloud', with local cache. The software to work on them will either be web-based or small and cheap.

This trend will be most noticeable in developing markets, where people will use their phones for what rich countries were using desktop PCs for up until now. For example, in Africa I noticed huge numbers of people have phones (not the latest and greatest, but not old crap either), but virtually no one owned their own PC. They will probably skip the PC step altogether, because in a year or two their phones will do most of what they would find useful in a PC anyway. They will go to Wifi hotspots and use their phones, in much the same way as they go to internet cafes now.

Apple is obviously a major contender (and driver) of this landscape. Google too.

Microsoft will retain its stranglehold on (some) business for quite a while, but that will be seen as a small part of a much larger marketplace. It will continue to exist and make money for a long time to come, but it won't have much pull over the general direction of computing.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Locutus]

I know of and heard of many many Windows PocketPC, Mobile, etc users who have dumped Windows on the handheld device because of how poor the platform is. So those who have tried and paid the price know how poorly they've done in these segments. But, there are millions more who only know Microsoft Windows on the desktop and to most of them, Microsoft is 'the computer' so they are ripe for the picking with the right marketing campaign.

One of the great things about the success of the iPhone has been that people no longer believe the lies that in order to have a usable handheld device, it must be Windows based. I was really sick of hearing that from people and the iPhone showed you did not need to be Windows to be usable. The iPad and Android are adding more fuel to that fire and if ChromeOS is any good, it'll only be a small step for people to realize that the PC is no longer a Windows world.

LoB

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Bohiti]

Very well put.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Luscious868]

Yeah, it's interesting isn't it. I think it's because it's become clear that the kind of big-ticket software that Microsoft has built itself on just isn't where the real money's going to be in a few years. It's reached a peak complexity-wise, features-wise, and usefulness-wise. Instead, collaborative service software (i.e. Google) will be the way a lot of businesses go, and consumers will go with small, cheap, and cheerful (i.e. the Apple App Store), and social network type stuff (Facebook and its successors). Portability is where it's at, and Microsoft has missed so many beats it can't catch up, especially because it means essentially cannibalising they big-ticket software business.

I think you're spot on in your analysis of where the consumer market is heading but when it comes to the business side of things office life is still dominated by standard desktop / laptop computing using big ticket software for most workers. I don't come across many businesses in my line of work where users don't have a desktop or laptop running Windows and Office in addition to one or more big ticket industry specific software applications with the one large noticable exception being the health-care industry where more and more providers are moving to tablets, which for doctors and nurses who aren't stationary makes perfect sense.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Strudelkugel]

It's not "what is holding Microsoft back, it's "who", as the parent suggests. Ballmer is simply a disaster as a CEO. I'm surprised the board hasn't ended his tenure, which they should have done after the (fortunately for Microsoft) attempt to buy Yahoo. (Jerry Yang has to be one of the worst tech CEOs ever for not taking the deal.)

Look at Apple - A succession of mediocre CEOs after Jobs, then Jobs comes back to create great a great company again. It's not the company, really, its the leadership. Ballmer has been coasting on what went before. He's not as bad as people like Jimmy Cayne (Bear Stearns) or Dick Fuld (Lehman), but certainly not of the caliber needed to run a large company like Microsoft.

Apple, Google, IBM, Oracle, etc, aren't perfect, and they need competition. Microsoft has considerable potential, but this will never manifest as long as Ballmer is at the top.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[zrelativity]

The danger for all companies (primarily big ones) is paradigm shift. Big companies are often blindsided because of the Inertia they build. Even in medium-small size companies, when the market shifts, lot of people, specially in middle management are very restive of change. Change is scary. So, what happens is that, they become a fish detached from the shoal - exposed and desperate to get back into the crowd.
Main Frame (IBM) -> Minis (DEC) -> PCs (MS/INtel) -> Handheld/MIDs
There is a massive momentum in the handheld/MID space, and by becoming detached to this trend - MS has made themselves irrelevant to many.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[nyctopterus]

I admit I don't know much about how large businesses are run (never worked for one!), so you might be right. Although, I suspect startups will move to software-as-service, and will stick with it as they get big.

The big now problem seems to be how you collaborate on stuff, and shift information around, not number of features in an office suite. That's gotta hurt Microsoft in the long run (right?).

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Anonymous Coward]

I should have said "This kind of thinking is what's holding Microsoft back". Ballmer for sure, but probably quite a few people around him too.

I think we should all be glad Microsoft has stumbled, they were too dominant before. We currently have a pretty good situation where three huge players with radically different approaches are duking it out.

I'm hoping we're headed into a place where lots of smaller players can compete too. I suspect we are, because Apple, Google, and Microsoft can't kill each other, they're all too strong. They are going to have to agree to standards instead.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[c 0xFF]

It's not the company, really, its the leadership.

People complain that CEOs make so much money, but I think it's obvious that they're key to the company. A good CEO can bring a company from near failure to huge success. A bad CEO can do the exact opposite.

Ballmer isn't looking so hot right now -- and that means Microsoft is in a dangerous situation.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Strudelkugel]

I like Windows 7. I certainly prefer it to the Mac UI, and I own an iMac and a MBP. SQL Server has lots of great features, and the .Net languages are much nicer than Objective-C, certainly. I use Bing and Google 50/50, probably. But that's not enough.

Microsoft makes a lot of money, but in my view, that is in spite of Ballmer, not because of him. The Courier looked like a great device. Why was that ended? How can Microsoft be so far behind in phones? You are no doubt right, there are others at Microsoft who think like Ballmer. Gates is too busy with his charity to notice or care, I suspect. At least that is a noble cause. Microsoft has been in a bad situation ever since Ballmer became CEO.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple is a device manufacture lacking any "cloud" strategy, meaning that they will be out in a few years when they cant deliver devices 10 times as good as the competition as they did with the original iPhone. The last iPhone 4 clearly shows that they is ruining low on gas and the competition is getting better and better, and is backed by the largest cloud in the world.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[Anonymous Coward]

A manufacturer of devices that work with cloud services, yes. And have clearly articulated that they believe computing is going in the way I outlined in my original post. Real money is to be made in the hardware that runs this stuff. iP*s are the sorts of things which will keep selling in bigger and bigger numbers.

Re:Getting nostalgic...

[zbaron]

The Courier looked like a great device. Why was that ended?

It. Never. Existed.

Incompatibility

[StormReaver]

If this Microsoft operating system is going to be incompatible with the other Microsoft operating systems, why not just switch to something else now and be done with it? Compatibility is the only advantage Microsoft software has, and that is being thrown out with the bathwater.

Re:Incompatibility

[PhrostyMcByte]

That's exactly what they did!

Windows Mobile looks like crap, and they know it. They maintained compatibility above all else, and the result is that you can use most of the familiar Windows API on it, and make all your apps look like tiny desktop apps. They worked but weren't very intuitive, especially in the new world of touch. Because of this, "Windows Phone 7" was announced as a completely incompatible OS, supporting only Silverlight apps. It's meant to be the next-gen platform that can compete with the slickness of the iPhone.

The problem is that Windows Mobile had a lot of business users and they weren't too happy with everything they make and use becoming obsolete overnight. That's the void this fills. This "Windows Embedded Handheld" maintains the compatibility platform they bought into.

I suspect the only difference between the two will be that one uses the old shell and one uses the new Silverlight shell -- it's already easy to confirm that Windows Phone 7 uses a similar (if not the same) platform underneath the new UI.

Re:Incompatibility

[Anonymous Coward]

thats why they're keeping this OS. windows phone 7 isn't compatible with some handhelds, this one is. its so they aren't forcing folks to switch to a new system and basically handing them a huge opportunity on a silver platter to switch to a new OS. the whole purpose of this OS is so you don't have to switch to a new OS.

Re:Incompatibility

[CAIMLAS]

For a Windows user, there is a LOT you can do with a WinMo 5-6.5 device with little/no effort - no need for custom (and very expensive) vendored products.

For instance, hooking up an RFID scanner to a WinMo phone or PDA, and automagically putting your data into a (desktop) Office-compatible spreadsheet, running totals, adding input, etc. as you go is dead simple (particularly if you've got an older, better non-capacitive screen). You can then just copy the file back over to your desktop, macros and all, and work on it there unchanged.

If you've got area wireless, you could also just edit the files directly.

There is no competition in the other PDA/phone vendors in this realm. You will pay thousands for this ability on anything else.
I, and many others, are very happy to see this possible announcement; many non-business people were upset to see the diminished utility in WP7.

Re:Incompatibility

[fred fleenblat]

For instance, hooking up an RFID scanner to a WinMo phone or PDA, and automagically putting your data into a (desktop) Office-compatible spreadsheet, running totals, adding input, etc. as you go is dead simple (particularly if you've got an older, better non-capacitive screen). You can then just copy the file back over to your desktop, macros and all, and work on it there unchanged.

You might be a happier person if you just used your phone to play angry birds or koi pond instead of whatever it was that you just said.

Who's the guy in charge of acronyms in MS?

[HonestButCurious]

MEH OS is exactly how I feel about this new offering and its chances of impressing anybody in this age and time. At least they didn't get it as bad as the CrAPI one.

Re:Who's the guy in charge of acronyms in MS?

[noidentity]

Maybe they meant MAH OS, the OS preferred by lolcats everywhere.

Re:Who's the guy in charge of acronyms in MS?

[oodaloop]

Um, except it's WEH OS: Windows Embedded Handheld Operating System. Still, you make a great point. It's a completely forgettable name.

Not new - continuation of Windows Mobile 6.5

[BandoMcHando]

The version of the article on engadget (here) seems a little more informative:

"We're starting to see that philosophy play out today with the introduction of Windows Embedded Handheld, which is essentially a warmed-over version of WinMo 6.5.3 with some key UI and enterprise-focused enhancements. Microsoft is specifically calling out an "extended support life-cycle" for the platform, a sign that these phones aren't for the gotta-have-it crowd -- instead, the company intends to push these things through corporate fleets where Windows Mobile has traditionally dominated, places where Windows Phone's flashy stylings and locked-down underpinnings won't have the same draw."

Mostly seems this *is* Windows Mobile 6.5 in all but name.

Re:Not new - continuation of Windows Mobile 6.5

[UnknowingFool]

And the saddest thing is that even though it's Window Mobile 6.5, it's really Windows Mobile 5 with a series of minor changes. Basically it's been 5+ years since MS has done any real work on their mobile OS.

Cue Windows 6.0 "Vista" vs. Windows 6.1 "Seven"

[Anonymous Coward]

... in 5...4...3...

Mod parent informative.

[alexhs]

Damn, my mod points just expired.

Mod parent informative, it doesn't deserve a funny (I suppose it is due to a misclick).

whocares?

[Anonymous Coward]

Huh? This is asking for a whocares tag, NOW!

Zune all over again

[Anonymous Coward]

This is the phone/mobile OS equivalent of releasing the Zune, which left "PlaysForSure" devices and media out of the party.

What in hell are they thinking by fragmenting their own market?

Fragmentation anyone?

[miffo.swe]

Kind of takes the edge off of those who complain about Android being fragmented. Microsofts Windows Mobile push is fragmented even at vapourware state.

Re:Fragmentation anyone?

[Albatrosses]

Oh for some +1 Funny mod points...

fragmentation?

[Anonymous Coward]

who's fragmenting now fan-bois?

Smart

[UseCase]

Regardless of our opinion of them as a company, this is a smart move. Backwards compatibility would add "rocks to the rucksack". If they are going to compete in the mobile market a lot of the dogma they have stuck by will have to fall away.

Re:Change of name when something goes wrong

[miknix]

This was predictable.. Microsoft learned that it can succeed by changing the product name and look when it fails. Just look at Windows Vista.

[troll]
Is Microsoft going to change its name in the near future?
[/troll]

No direction No clue

[Anonymous Coward]

That sums up Microsoft. No focus, spread thin, too busy with their "promotion driven development" process all people care about is their CSP (Career Stage Profiles) and getting that next level. Blundly, fuck the company fuck the product, give me my promotion level.

I know, I work there. Its one fucked up company. Take their money and run.

so...

[hitmark]

to me this reads like microsoft is in the same pickle that palm was in when smartphones first started up.

back then they had the problem that their current palmos (garnet) was running into a brick wall in terms of capabilities. They had a more updated version available (cobalt) but no one wanted it as it was not compatible with the library of third party garnet software that was out there.

basically, 6.5 looks like someone crammed desktop windows onto a phone. Microsoft wants to get a ground up rethink of the UI out there, but have no way to also maintain compatibility with existing software.

It shall be known as YATMMOSS

[Provocateur]

Following trends from l33t websites like Freshmeat.net, they have decided that it shall be known as Yet Another Touted Microsoft Mobile OS *spit*

Windows Mobile 7 not exactly .Net though

[SuperKendall]

Then the templates are implemented twice: in terms of pointers on unmanaged platforms (PC, Mac, Apple iOS, Android NDK) and in terms of C++/CLI handles on .NET platforms (WP7, 360).

From a Windows Mobile 7 Q&A

Q: What development languages are supported on Windows Phone 7?

A: Right now, the only development language supported is C#. Developers are also interested in Visual Basic, C++ and other .Net apps, Kindel acknowledged, and Microsoft may add support for these over time. But Microsoft's development strategy for its new mobile platform is if you're doing XAML programming, use Silverlight. If you're doing an interactive or 3D game, go with XNA. The version of Silverlight supported is a superset of Silverlight 3 (not Silverlight 4, which is going to be released to the Web in final form in April.)

Microsoft Fell Into The Twilight Zone

[zunipus]

'Give up all hope, ye who enter here.'

Microsoft have clearly entered their age of dementia. Apparently the idea is to give up on bullets and use buckshot instead. Something is sure to hit the target, right?

I used to think this BS from Microsoft was hilarious. Now I just feel sorry for them. I used to hope that after Gates left they'd turn into a company that was actually beneficial to the computer community. Now I've given up on them. They are beyond the reach of mortal man. They shall not be returning to our dimension.
(o_0)

please mod parant up

[Anonymous Coward]

it's very insightful

Awesome!

[gearloos]

Because if theres anything this world needs, Its another Microsoft OS !

You are describing Free not Open Source

[pslam]

Android is 100% open source. Don't like the Market? Replace it. Don't like the keyboard? Replace it. Don't like Google integrations? Remove them.

Except that, for the vast majority of Android handsets, you can't actually do that. You're missing one essential piece of source code: the private key you need to sign binaries with.

You're also missing the source to the baseband, many drivers (just binary blobs), boot loader, and even the Google apps themselves. 'Open' is really getting used inappropriately these days.

Actually, not so forgettable a name.

[zooblethorpe]

I mean, c'mon, WEHOS? WE HOS!

Yeah, I'll certainly remember that -- though probably not the way Microsoft would have wanted...

Cheers,

Steve Ballmer is a genius

[symbolset]

Only he has the visionary genius to lead Microsoft through the challenges ahead, to the outcome we so desperately need. Just one more year should do it. Leave the man alone - he's working.

Windows CE Revival

[jseale]

That's what this offering amounts to. The Windows Embedded Handheld OS is intended to run set-top boxes (think Motorola, Cisco here), GPS systems, PMPs, and other such portable electronics in addition to phones. The phones that this does go into will most likely be low-end smart phones or feature phones. M$ wouldn't dare derail the gravy train that is Windows Phone 7 that is just now leaving the station.

Kin is the vanguard of Windows Phone 7

[symbolset]

I think maybe people are smarter than you think they are. Would you like a Kin phone? You can get it cheap. Apparently in the past month since physical availability not one Amazon user has cared enough to even review the thing, even though you can now buy it for a penny ($349.98 off retail). Even the Microsoft haters don't care enough to log into their Amazon accounts to bash the thing, though you can be sure they will in the next day. Reports are that the platform (both Kin One and Kin Two) have moved an astounding 500 units in that month. Worldwide. That's not even one per store. Hell, that's not even one per member of the team that designed and produced the freaking thing. Just the marketing team probably has more than 500 members and even they can't be persuaded to buy it. The number is not very credible, but it's the only number we'll ever see because there's no way Microsoft is going to tell us the actual scale of their failure, and they can't deny the rumor without giving the number.

At some point in the next year a C?O is going to be troubleshooting his PC by pointing the user-side webcam of his iPhone or 'Droid at the inscrutable error display in an attempt to show exactly how his PC failed him to tech support. That'll happen with hundreds of CIOs, CEOs and CTOs, and then one accidentally freakishly intelligent member of that population will have the epiphany: the desktop sucks because it's using the wrong software, and the phone doesn't because it isn't. He'll fix it, and tell his friends, and they'll tell their friends. And then our long national nightmare will be over.

I'm thinking that Windows Phone 7 is going to be such a gorgeous failure that it will serve as a lesson to others throughout three decades of tech. It's looking like a trainwreck on the scale of a Hilton/Lohan/Spears girl's night out. It's Glitter meets Waterworld meets Uwe Boll, to give a cinematic reference. I'd make a car analogy, but such a disaster in the annals of automotive engineering doesn't come to mind. It's going to be lovely. I wish the Internet had a record button so I could replay this trainwreck over and over in slow motion in my declining years. It will be epic.

Betting?

[symbolset]

If I were betting I would bet that between them they wouldn't move 600,000 units ever, total, even if they gave the phones away - and that's the preorders for the fourth generation iPhone for the first day sight unseen - and only because they ran out of preorder available equipment and demand crashed the servers. Based on the Kin 600,000 units for Windows Mobile Phone 7 ever looks optimistic even spread over the entire lifecycle if it ran a thousand years. Hell, 16,000 units for all the various platforms altogether looks optimistic. Not enough market for developers to be interested unless they're deeply subsidized - and to quote Steve Ballmer: "Developers!" (x60).

I won't get fooled again

[Phoghat]

I'm never buying a Windows Mobile device again. Ever. I used devices using PPC 2002 through Windows Mobile 6.0 and had problems with each, mainly the soft reset dance. I now have iPhone, and while not perfect, at least works .

AT&T without unknown sources

[tepples]

You can already write whever you want on an Android phone.

Not if you're on AT&T, which has removed "Unknown sources" from the menu on its Android phones.

Re:

[Anonymous Coward]

One day i will learn how to use periods at the end of sentences I will also learn how to Capitalize Nouns of course i will first need to learn what a noun is maybe i should learn how to spell first.

Re:too late

[Elektroschock]

Maybe microsoft bought Maemo? Microsoft Maemo!