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UK's RIAA Goes After Google Using the US DMCA
An anonymous reader passes along a DMCA takedown notice directed at Google and authored by the British Phonographic Industry, Britain's equivalent of the RIAA. P2pnet identifies the BPI as the outfit that "contributed to the British government's Digital Economy bill, complete with its ACTA Three Strikes and you're Off The Net element, with hardly a murmur from the UK lamescream media." Are there any precedents for a UK trade organization attempting to use an American law to force an American company to take down links to UK-copyrighted material?
I don't get it.
Google does not host material it indexes.
Material it indexes is offered publicly.
People who follow the search results ALSO get authorized copies. It's only if they copy them that they might run afoul.
Google has no more contributed to copyright violation than a shop selling copyright materials advertising its wares.
In Liberty, Rene
Look at all the information is listed on Chilling Effects. We know the owner of the copyright (Sony Music, Universal, and Warner seem to be popular on their takedown list), the song titles, and even what links they want removed. I'm changing my homepage from thepiratebay to chillingeffects.
'Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun.' - Mao Tse-tung
between the internet and the old rules of old media, that they think can be applied to end consumers in the internet era
copyright will still apply to say: jk rowlings and the hollywood studio that makes her movie: finite identifiable individuals on a closed finite issue
but as applied to the end consumer, in the internet world: sorry, no, unenforceable
copyright law is akin to a gentleman's agreement between captains of industry drinking mojitos in an oak paneled room. copyright law does not, and cannot, be applied to end consumers in the internet world. they call it disruptive technology for a reason
let them try to destroy the internet. the world will simply not let the assholes grandfather themselves into our cultural space. do they really think they can hobble the internet for the sake of their continued unneeded existence? we don't NEED old school distributors anymore. they of course won't die quietly and gracefully, but die they will
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
What did look scarey is including a bunch of queries that would evidently produce some/all of the content they object too. It's as if they want to claim that Google's ability to find such stuff makes them liable ... so that they should then work with the UK's RIAA to block searches for those
bits of material ... ugh!!...
Obama's the president now, not Bush! Didn't the Brits get the memo?
I'm the above AC, because I was too lazy to log in, and I DRTFA before posting. None of those URLs are Googles, I'm sure they will laugh, and ignore.
I'm a nature photographer.
Aptly named (saves 2 bytes).
I run a site that archives the BBC's Essential Mix radio show. We (my users and I) have been collecting these shows for the past 6 years. We've built a community around it that didn't exist anywhere else. These shows aren't available for purchase or download so we had no choice but to offer them in somewhat of a grey legal area.
June 1st, 2010 I received a Cease and Desist EMAIL from a company called Somthin' Else. They are the producers of the "Essential Mix" show, which then gets licensed to the BBC.
They said they wanted to discuss possible deals in their email but never responded to any of my 5 attempts (from different addresses) to contact them. I'm not sure if there was some other legal path I should have taken but I would think if they can contact me in an email then we should be able to convers further over email, but that is besides the point.
The main point is that this content is not available anywhere else so we had no option but to collect it ourselves. Not to mention all the free publicity it directed towards the DJs and the musicians.
I posted the letter on my site, mixriot.com, and my users barraged this guy with emails. Eventually he responded over TWITTER saying that they weren't the biggest hurdle. I'm assuming that means the BBC is starting to swing its hammer. I don't understand why the BBC would need to be aggressive, they are government funded, not advertising driven.
Below follows the entire email:
stuart.smith@somethinelse.com
Dear Sir / Madam,
It has come to our attention that mixriot.com is serving streamed and download content which includes BBC Radio programmes “The Essential Mix” and “In New DJ’s we trust”.
As the producer and copyright holder of both shows we have not granted rights to any third party at this time. We view any attempt to stream or to offer this content as a download in breach of copyright and therefore instruct mixriot to cease and desist any use of this content immediately.
As mixriot is the recipient of advertiser and subscriber income based on content delivered to date can you please deliver to Somethin’ Else within 30 days a statement of earnings to date and how much of this is due to SE for the above content.
Somethin Else welcomes new business opportunities throughout the world and would be interested in discussing applications and uses of our content with genuine business partners. If you would like to discuss these opportunities then please contact me.
If you do not respond within 7 days then we will pursue other courses of action.
Yours faithfully,
Stuart Smith
Finance Director
Somethin' Else
20-26 Brunswick Place
London
N1 6DZ
UK
Switchboard: +44 (0) 20 7250 5500
Fax: +44 (0) 20 7250 0937
I'm confused. Why do you think there is some strange new thing going on here which needs precedent?
The Berne Convention(and newer treaties, including the WIPO) requires that signatories recognize the copyright of those in other nationalities as they recognize the copyright of their own citizens. The treaties (as amended through the years) basically mean that we grant copyright-holders in other countries the same rights and privileges as our own; we treat foreign copyright-holders the same as our own.
This is a good thing.
Yes, there are some problems with copyright law. There are some nutty points, especially related to some fair use concerns. The DCMA has some issues. But its based on copyright, and copyright is a good thing-- Copyright is what gives the GPL its power.
But all that aside, why all this shock and thinking this is weird or new? We're a Berne Convention signatory, we have agreed to a sort of normalization internationally in relation to our treatment of copyright. This isn't some strange or new thing. The US finally agreed to the treaty in 198[8|9]. Its been awhile since then.
IANAL, but afaik...
International copyright is bound by WTO treaties and other international law. The USA acknowledges international copyrights. The DMCA may have controversial portions, but much of it is good, providing means and method of having infringing data removed from the internet and requires certain compliance by intermediary parties (i.e. hosting companies) of infringing content. Note that by invoking the DMCA, they are clearly using US law, not UK law which would clearly not apply to data or services hosted by a US company on US soil, even if the content was created in the UK.
As for examples, I know of many happening in the other direction, as the US is a bit more "lawsuit happy" than the rest of the world... Allofmp3.com was an interesting example as while Russia was party to WTO treaties, the site was still legal according to Russian law. Ultimately, when pressured, Russia changed their law to be more friendly to their WTO allies and the site was shut down. Had the Russians already had such laws on the books, the RIAA, a US-based organization, would've been able to immediately bring suit against allofmp3.com according to international law.
So essentially... international law means that copyrights are unified within WTO-participating countries, but domestic law applies where-ever the law is broken, the law of the country under which the copyright is registered is NOT applied, afaik.
It is possible that I got some or all of this wrong, because, again, IANAL!
Just out of curiosity -- what would happen if Google preemptively denied the UK access to its services? Maybe just for a month or two? If nobody in the UK could search using google.com? What would happen?
and isps aren't acting as distributor's agents
for legal and business reasons, that doesn't make sense
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
They took a risk when they invested in BP. Here in the US investment companies always tack this on to claims - "Past Performance Is Not Indicative of Future Results".
All the fund and pension managers could have brought up BP's glaring safety record at share holder meetings or moved money to other companies. But they didn't because they thought past performance was indicative of future results. And now they are screwed.
businesses are powerful, but they are often balanced in power on some questions by other businesses. that is the case here. additionally, there are rules about what they can and cannot do. that is also the case here
i dislike the riaa, mpaa, etc. but we have to be smart in how we fight them. if we give into this sort of hysterical paranoia that you are peddling, then we've already lost
you are acting on spastic fear, not a solid understanding of the issues
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
where our legislators whore themselves out to companies, and we look at canada, uk, australia, europe, etc., where companies are held, sanely, in check by the government
and you're telling me the truth is that these other places have it worse than the usa?
they have rules about this. and if the government doesn't notice, a competitor will promptly sue the hell out of the offending party for playing unfairly
basically, no, it doesn't make sense that your cable provider is colluding with your music/ movie distributor. no, sorry, it doesn't work that way, all hysteria to the contrary
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The new 4 step business plan of the recording industry:
1:Record legal template
2:Create a signed, limited run of said legal template
3:Distribute it to as many people as possible
4:Expect to get paid
> copyright is a good thing
I agree, but even more agree that in this case it's easy to have too much of a good thing. In fact, we're already there.
Except that is called a "fixer" and is predicated off the fixer KNOWING that the car is stolen.
In this case, however, the copyrights ARE NOT STOLEN.
They CANNOT BE stolen.
Therefore your car analogy falls down.
BBC is publicly funded and copyright a civil case. Therefore, as the original paymasters of this content created, there is a grey area. As a civil case, then the owners of the copyright are owed only the losses. Since they aren't selling to anyone, these losses are nil.
Note: this is why the UK has no fair use clause, since private copying (until the change in Jan 2001 under US pressure) was strictly civil and based off actual proven damages (nil), the law allowed you to be taken to court for the damages done (nil) which would be easy to pay and cause the court to sue the plaintiff for wasting the courts' time. Therefore fair use wasn't needed. But they changed the law in 2001 to remove this damages-only section but didn't put in fair use clauses, getting the best of both worlds to the international cartels.
Perhaps not as pertinent to discussion of the actual content itself, but I'm fairly sure I've never heard of a Digital Ecomy Bill. Does TFS, perhaps, refer to the recently passed Digital Economy Bill?
I am not a lawyer, and this is a discussion, not legal advice. See a competent solicitor/attorney qualified in your jurisdiction if you need one.
Firstly, yes, they can be allowed to take down links or search results under 17 USC 512(d). (c) is for hosting the content, (d) is for linking to it or referring to an online location for it in an index or directory. (If you recall, this is one reason the DMCA was thought of as so draconian; they can not only take down the content, they can take down secondary links.)
Secondly, since Google is subject to US law, the proper jurisdiction is the US state in which Google is located. (There is, however, a school of thought that says that since people in any jurisdiction can access the internet, you can shop around for any jurisdiction that is convenient, say, the one that you are in, to raise an action within: i.e. "people on the internet in New Jersey can access your site" -> "you do business in New Jersey" -> "you are under the jurisdiction of New Jersey". Clearly people have tried that, but with mixed success; it seems to work with states, and friendly jurisdictions where there are equivalent laws, but people in the US trying to raise action against, say, a certain famous site formerly located in Sweden were repeatedly and proudly told to push off. Nevertheless, there has been some success in this area, which is disappointing because the reverse reasoning would seem to allow someone in Thailand or China or Burma issuing takedowns under censorship laws...)
Thirdly, we have the same provisions here in the UK under the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act, amended via Statutory Instrument as a result of the enactment of the European Union Copyright Directive. The takedown provisions are virtually identical to the US ones; a valid DMCA takedown is valid here, and a valid takedown constructed according to our law contains all the elements of a valid DMCA takedown. (There are, of course, some differences. Under the DMCA a service provider has to keep it down for a certain period of time even after a counter-notification is issued, for example, although in practice they rarely do, as that seems to be regarded as a mistake in the law.)
There's really nothing stopping cross-jurisdictional takedowns from being issued. It's valid where it's been served, and as a bonus it's even valid where it's been sent from.
So yes, Google would have to comply (and do, as a matter of course, in a slightly subversive way that thankfully allows for some oversight - something sorely missing from the takedown regime - by taking the results down, indicating that results have been removed due to a request, uploading the specific request to Chilling Effects, and linking to it).
Business as usual, really.
We know that a website can be shut down for providing links to copyrighted material. So if that can be done to newzbin.com what principle of law makes google.com immune?
politicians are like babies' nappies: they should both be changed regularly and for the same reasons
Why would the British Pornographic Industry go after Google? I don't get it.
Clever signature text goes here.
> lamescream media
Stop that. It makes you sound like a god-damned idiot.
Google is in the US (as a company) and the applicable law is the US law. British company is using its legitimate rights to protect its copyrights under US law.
Apart from the fact that the US has silly copyright laws, duration etc, surely there is nothing to see here?
Donte Alistair Anderson Roberts - hi son!
Karma: Chameleon
Now I know what I am saying is offtopic, but why do I always read "British Pornographic Industry" when fast-reading through any website where it is mentioned? :) - but it becomes annoying. You know, stopping dead in your tracks and thinking "Wait, WHAT?".
It's not an intentional act; maybe I'm more used to one word than another
...gis sdrawkcab (usually not responding to ACs; don't bother posting as AC)
But all that aside, why all this shock and thinking this is weird or new?
Maybe because, for once, an American company is on the receiving end of it?
Was there any shock when American companies, using American laws, in American courts, suing foreign people/companies with no presence in America?
Boiled down to basics by replacing a few words, there is nothing wrong, see "Are there any precedents for a copyright owner attempting to use an American law to force an American company to take down links to copyrighted material?"
It is just plain foolish/trollish for the summary to use the term "UK-copyrighted" because in this case, the material is also copyrighted in US.
Oliver.
Both major U.S. political parties support expansion of the scope of copyright. They have to, or they won't gain the support of the Hollywood-controlled TV news outlets.
How is such a license obtained?
You are subject to the law of the land that you are doing what you are doing in and no other. In this particular example yes Google has a UK operation and BPI may have an alternate option in using UK law against that, but had there been no UK operations, the only choice would be for the BPI to use American law. In this case I suspect BPI is going for the parent because firstly that is always preferable (if you get an order against a parent, it is easier to apply it to all the subs then vice-versa) and especially when it is in the jurisdiction of more convenient laws. There will also be numerous examples of a UK company using US law against the US operations of another UK company (and they'll have cherry-picked the state too).
Copyrights are under international treaty which means UK copyrights basically apply in the US as if they were works completed in the US by a US citizen.
If your content is on a US webhost then you can file a complaint with the webhost directly, which is more effective. But filing a complaint with Google works well if the violating content is on a webhost that doesn't care about copyright.
Never email donotemail@WeAreSpammers.com
Their search results got longer results .. they are just jealous at size.
The market has become too small to get big enough results.
--- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
They should simply remove every single public link to any content belonging to any UK BPI member or mentioning any BPI member's label artists, with any attempt to access such content via google going to a page telling people to contact the BPI for information about just why it is that BPI label and artist content has completely disappeared from google.
Tech Public Policy stuff
#whatdebill
But its based on copyright, and copyright is a good thing-- Copyright is what gives the GPL its power.
For the umpteenth time, the GPL only exists as a hack of the copyright system to workaround its stupidity. If we didn't have copyright, we wouldn't need GPL in the first place. Don't try to love the abusive spouse that gives you some sweets now and then when your other option is moving to Candyland.
And this is relevant, how, fuckwad?
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".
Or, it could be that I use profanity in my speech. What's your point? Your whole essay boils down to "I enjoy pissing other people off". It takes a very small man to go out of his way just to troll other people like you do APK. Seek psychiatric help, seriously.
And I haven't seen that movie actually, is it any good?
For a site about things like basic rights, Slashdot users sure do like to censor "dissent".