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Women Dropping Out of IT
Women's eNews has an interesting look at women in tech, with numbers showing that women are bailing out of the IT field at a rapid pace. "Technology jobs are predicted to grow at a faster rate than all other jobs in the professional sector, up to 22% over the next decade, according to the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Compensation is also good. In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370. ... But women's stake in that rosy outlook is questionable. For starters, men's pay during the same time period was $80,357. A study by the National Center for Women and Information Technology ... also finds that women are leaving computer careers in staggering numbers. 'Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers,' said Catherine Ashcraft, the senior research scientist who authored the report. In 2008, women held only 25% of all professional IT-related jobs, down from 36% in 1991, according to the group's report, 'Women in IT: The Facts.'"
They're smarter than the men.
In 2008, women in tech made an average salary of $70,370...men's pay during the same time period was $80,357....
Fifty-six percent of women in technology companies leave their organizations at the mid-level point, 10-20 years in their careers
Could it possibly be that women drop out of these jobs 10-20 years into their careers to have children? Could this also explain the difference in "average" salary if their careers have a break or work shorter weeks?
also a dumping ground for narcissistic assholes apparently.
The terms are being used interchangeably here. The bloom is off the rose on IT careers, certainly (in the US, at least), and not just for women. And the number/type of pure IT careers is imploding, I'm sure (once upon a time there were "webmasters" who were counted as IT guys). But capital "T" Technology as a whole? The highly technical careers that use computers and software as tools? I'm not convinced.
Fewer woman programmers and server room jockeys, OK. But fewer woman technology workers and technicians? Not so sure. Sounds like stats being massaged to prove a point for somebody...
Besides there is a GREAT reason why the women make 70k while the men make 80k. Men don't take maternity leave and men don't take sick leave because their kids have the sniffles. Add up the costs for all the extra leave women take and all the work that they don't get done when on leave and it can easily explain the pay difference. No discussion about the gender difference of pay rates is honest without considering things like maternity leave. I really don't care if that offends anyone, it is simply fact and if the truth offends you then you have problems you cannot blame on me.
By "aspy losers" do you refer to Asperger's syndrome? I haven't seen very much of this in IT. I don't think that everyone who lacks social skills has some kind of medical disease and even if I did, I am not qualified to diagnose it as I am not a doctor. It may be a lot more common among programmers than among sysadmins and front-line support folks who must deal with others on a regular basis.
I will say I am rather skilled in IT myself yet do not work in the field. My friends have asked me why, as though they picture some big-time salary and prestige like what any other profession requiring that much specialized knowledge would receive. I explained to them it is nothing like that, you are treated more like the janitor of the computer systems and are likely to be the whipping boy when things beyond your control go wrong. Example, the execs want to purchase a system but you advise against it because that system is known for frequent crashes. They purchase it anyway and now it's your fault that they have problems when they went against your advice. All authority structures are full of this kind of blatant hypocrisy. What's different about IT is that you are likely to get the blame no matter what, possibly because you are seen as an expense and not as a bread-winner like the sales team.
Sounds like what I deal with when it involves management. And I'm a guy. Welcome to IT.
I never thought that I would live to see the Platonic ideal of horseshit, but here it is.
Gentler? Hah. What a load that is. I work for the Girl Scouts. The entire staff is women. 90% of our volunteers are women. There's nothing gentle; it's just more subtle. I'd rather work with guys, tbh- though the exception is misogynistic assholes. It's one thing to be catching shit from someone who is just an equal-opportunity jerk; it's another thing entirely to know that you're only catching shit because you're female, and that there's nothing you can ever do to stop that. Therein lies the difference, I think.
You're absolutely right, but take it a step further: Even without women, why do we put up with bullshit pseudo-macho alpha geek behaviour? It's not like it's any benefit to getting the job done, and it smacks of the same sort of delusions that young lawyers and young stock brokers fall prey to, the "go hard or go home" school of working yourself to death for your boss's sake.
Well, actually, I don't. Nearing my 40th birthday, my consultancy is screaming along, and dealing with other IT guys in their late 30s, I find we're all quite mature and professional, and don't behave in ways that women would find offputting, usually because we have wives and often daughters that remind us that keyboard commandos aren't the only or best people in the world.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Nonsense. Men are scared dickless of skilled, knowledgable women, and do everything they can to undermine them and chase them away. You can't stand the competition, and you especially can't stand people who really do care about merit, rather than depend on good-ole-boy bullshitting.
I call BS. I'm a divorced/remarried male and I have almost equal time with my kids fortunately. I do take off when they have sniffles. I did it when I was still with my first wife...way more than she did(when you consider her time off was not with the kids and a whole other story). I encourage my employees to take time when they need it for family. It makes for a more loyal employee generally. I also encourage working from home. It's a great resource to rely on when some application needs a mod by COB on the day they are off.
Maybe it's just my experience, but I have gathered that a higher percentage of women seem to ignore objective data if their "intuition" suggests otherwise. Fewer women have a "scientific method" approach to problem solving, and instead prefer a heuristic method (existential ideas about the world aside), or even "trial and error".*
Fields like IT, engineering, physics, chemistry, biology, etc require a more objective and rational approach to solving for unknowns. Statistically, this problem-solving method appears to be a field where women are lacking.
Define "comparable experience". There is a vast difference in talent and ability between people who work in IT, and none of that can be reflected in any objective metrics.
>>>If I'm speaking most men will just interrupt and talk right over as if I'm not even in the ro
So? Men do the same to me, and I am a man. That's how men communicate. Is it rude? Yes but that's how men are - constantly interrupting one another. It's not because you're a woman but because the men are treating you like any other man. You need to learn to interrupt them too, if you want to be heard.
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>>>And if I'm competent, which I am, I'm seen as a threat and treated as "the enemy"..
Again, no different than how men treat me, and I'm a man. It is the way of things. Maybe you need to read "Men Are From Mars" which has very useful insights into how men think and talk differently from women, because you seem to expect men to act like women (don't interrupt, don't be competitive), and they simply aren't hardwired that way
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"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
It's men who are dumb enough to tolerate the aspy-programmer types, the sneering arrogant IT guys, the mailing lists full of flaming personal attacks leveled by closet bullies empowered by semi-anonymity, the phallic-compensating gadget consumerists, constantly "helpful" types who manage to insult while trying to rescue, and the sexually inept who use pinup wallpaper and leer at any woman in eyeshot. Membership in (or at least tolerance of) a repellant boys' club is an almost-mandatory feature of our industry.
In a 20 year career as a software developer:
1. I haven't met any programmers suffering from Asperger's Syndrom (I assume this is what "aspy" means, correct me if I'm wrong)
2. I haven't known any "sneering arrogant IT guys". The IT guys I've met have been normal, helpful human beings.
3. I have seen some harsh emails, but not often and nothing like the venom you describe
4. I can't recall any "phallic compensation gadget consumerists", but perhaps I'm not looking hard enough...
5. I haven't met any "constantly helpful types who insult while trying to rescue"
6. I have seen some teenage male type usage of naked women pictures, but that's been quite rare. Do you think that teenage male types only exist in the tech industry?
Do you think that "boys clubs" are more prevalent in the tech industry than other industries? The problems that you cite probably exist in most companies to one degree or another.
That's just the lie they repeat for our benefit, it doesn't matter to doctors if you live or die (malpractice insurance), and they don't care (not emotionally invested) because they couldn't do the job if they cared
You say:
And then you say:
It's like your standing on the edge of enlightenment, windmilling your arms to keep from falling over.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
That has nothing to do with sex. If you're constantly interrupting and talking over people, you're a rude asshole, and it's definitely not just “how men communicate.” It's perfectly possible for men to have good manners and follow appropriate turn-taking when having a conversation.
However, I will say that there are many assholes out there who have not mastered this basic form of courtesy, so I can see how you might get the impression that it's the norm. I've also known some chauvinists who would be more likely to talk over a woman than a man, so I can empathize with the grandparent poster.
Schlock Mercenary
Women are so brilliant they invented the wheel, electricity and space rockets. Moreover, in modern times, unleashed, they founded companies like Youtube and Twitter. Men are just dump and give up easily, and then blame it on the culture of the company they work for.
The thing to observe is that many other professions with significant representation of women don't have the problems that IT does. In other words, the behaviours in IT that get singled out by women as the reason they stay away or leave the field don't exist or aren't nearly as bad in other professions--sales, for example, or medicine, or accounting. If it's true that "people are who they are", then IT wouldn't be different from other fields--they'd all show the same low rates of participation by women. That IT is different puts the lie to the idea that this is somehow "natural" behaviour. Other segments of society have discouraged the kind of sexism that's common in IT; why can't IT?
All of your handwaving about "people are who they are" really is just making excuses and protecting bad behaviour by claiming some bogus unchangeability about IT culture. Of course you can discourage it--lots of others have, and quite successfully.
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Get it in an email and send it to any local group that helps people being discriminated against via use of the Americans with disabilities act. They'll be fired within a month or two or thrown in jail.
-1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
You seem to ignore your eyes and instead have some fairy tale view of reality that we are all basically the same. Sorry, most real computer nerds tend to be men, and they have been since they were little kids.
You're seeing the result of the socialization women received 20+ years ago. Men now have a leg up technically, and they are paid more because of this, not because of evil sexism.
Maybe things will change in a few generations, but I doubt it. Have you seen Bratz toys or the TV shows they still show little girls?
they are better nerds
Bullshit. Why do you think they're better nerds?
Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
Because the boss says, "sure take all the time you want, don't forget to clean out your desk". Even in a state with laws allowing/protecting maternity leave, it doesn't apply to men. Other oddities in the world of women: if a woman cries abuse, the man is guilty no matter what happened, or even if proved innocent in a court of law. If a woman is pregnant the father has no legal standing in anything, period. On and on, cry me a f***ing river. The fact is there are still occupations where women shouldn't be allowed.
But wait - Veterenarians are noticing something interesting: Males work very, very long hours - sometimes 7:00 AM to 9:00 PM and have a huge client base. Women, on the other hand, tend to work very short hours because they combine their careers with child-reasing. As a result, it can take 4-5 female to produce the same work as one male in the field. Also, inherently, salaries are much, much different.
So, rather than screaming sexist or gender inequality, let's look at how women have been able to have a life balance that is, possibly, better than men's.
The IT field is particularly nasty if you want to balance your home and work life. As so many of you know, tending a server farm or managing a transaction-intensive web site can mean hours and hours of work at any time of the day or night. It's not a wonder that women have seen the light about what amounts to a shit job (regardless of the pay).
*** Don't be dull.***
I just find it irrational and paradoxical that in an industry that's supposed to be based on logic, there's so much sexism.
I admit to bias - I have two daughters, and I don't want them discriminated against; I'm sure any parent wants the best for their kids.
But it is pervasive - to the point that even many women buy into it rather than rock the boat, or worse, because they actually believe it. Conditioned into having lower expectations, like other groups. I don't want that for my kids.
Of course it then extends outwards to the customers as well. You get some guys who have to "show they're boss" when they're buying stuff, just to impress their wife or girlfriend. Or they treat the receptionist like crap, or a non-person, because "they're just the receptionist."
Or just as bad, they'll assume, when dealing with a woman, that it's just a stepping-stone to dealing with "the man in charge".
Suppliers in general aren't so bad - they've learned that if you crap on the receptionist, your messages get mislaid (and many employers are now smart enough to look at your treatment of others as indicative of whether you're a "good fit". Treat the cleaning staff like crap, you won't be asked back to bid).
But there's still a long way to go ... for both sexes.