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More Gas Station Credit-Card Skimmers

coondoggie notes a Network World piece on credit-card skimmers found installed in gas pumps, this time in Florida. Like the similar wave of attacks in Utah earlier this year, the latest crop uses Bluetooth to transmit the illicitly collected data. Does this mean an accomplice has to hang around within 3m of the pump? "The Secret Service has indicated there's a crime wave throughout the Southeast involving the gas-station pump card skimmers, and it may be traced back to a single gang that may be working out of Miami... St. Johns County in Florida has also been hit by the gas-pump card skimmers. [A local sheriff's department spokesman] says criminals wanting to hide the credit-card skimmers in gas pumps have to have a key to the pump, but in some cases a single key will serve to get into many gas pumps." Here's an insight from the banking industry on the skimming fraud.

251 comments

  1. Hiders Keepers? by LostCluster · · Score: 4, Informative

    Does this mean an accomplice has to hang around within 3m of the pump?

    No. What it means is that there's no need for there to be a wire that leads to the skimmer's recording device... which now can be hidden in the next pump over. This also means the mag reader could be placed in the pump without a recording device, therefore requiring the pump to be taken apart for inspection, adding to the cleanup costs.

    Remember, once a fraud becomes so expensive to clear up that the expenses are greater than the total loss, then it's almost allowed to continue unchecked.

    1. Re:Hiders Keepers? by atrus · · Score: 5, Informative

      Or, in reality, every skimmer records numbers. The thief comes by with the "dumper", buys some gas while take a complete download of the current recorder memory. Its far less risky on the retrieval of the numbers, especially if the skimmers have already been identified and the cops are waiting around the corner for the guys to come back (unlikely, but you never know).

    2. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Stephenmg · · Score: 5, Informative

      Bluetooth range can go up to 100 meters depending on the class of the transmitter. Class 1 ~100m, Class 2 ~10m, class 3 ~1m. A class 2 the recording device could be hidden in the trunk of the abandoned car at the place next door. Class 1 could be down the street.

    3. Re:Hiders Keepers? by oldspewey · · Score: 1

      ... and Bluetooth has a range much greater than 3m in my experience. I've had my phone autoconnect to my car when the phone is a good 8m away in a pants pocket, on a different floor, in the opposite corner of the house.

      --
      If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    4. Re:Hiders Keepers? by dan_linder · · Score: 4, Insightful

      ...and with the price of flash memory so low, it would be pretty easy to hide a little digital camera to snap photos of the person as they put the card in and/or stood in front of the machine. It would be easy to download those too and if they saw a few with the manager and a customer standing and pointing at the machine they would know that the gig was up and to just walk away.

      I'm really thinking the cash idea is the way to go from now on. :-(

      Dan

    5. Re:Hiders Keepers? by NiceGeek · · Score: 0

      You're right, white folks never commit fraud.
      Sigh, ACs are ACs on Slashdot or in real life - just in real life you can see the hoods and robes at least.

    6. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Thelasko · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Mod parent up!

      The recording device is in the pump. It records the card numbers internally. The thief then comes back and downloads the data off the skimmer with bluetooth (probably with a phone). Totally inconspicuous.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    7. Re:Hiders Keepers? by mldi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      On the bright side, it's easily detectable by checking for BT radios.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    8. Re:Hiders Keepers? by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I doubt the skimmer-makers would bother, unless the cops have quietly been hunting bluetooth emissions for a while now; but it wouldn't exactly be rocket surgery to have a bluetooth device that just sits there, receiving but maintaining absolute radio silence unless it hears a particular transmission(from a particular bluetooth MAC, if you really want to get paranoid). The wireless analog of port knocking, more or less...

      Particularly with all the cellphones floating around, a BT radio, even one yelling its little amplifier out, is hardly automatically suspicious in a reasonably crowded area. Somebody who knew what they were doing, had the right set of antennas, and had some knowledge of what they were looking for(if, for instance, the skimmer-manufacturers produced a large batch, all with BT modules from the same manufacturer, or even with MACs in series, and some were captured by conventional physical inspection), could definitely hunt them down much more quickly, unless they are very short range units, or were using some stealth strategy like the above...

    9. Re:Hiders Keepers? by EdIII · · Score: 1

      Come on... don't lump all the AC's in with ignorant racist KKK hicks that pop up once in awhile. Anonymity is an integral sacrosanct part of freedom.

    10. Re:Hiders Keepers? by postbigbang · · Score: 1

      BT radios are common, but ones with easily accessible obex files would be even more suspicious. Cracking such things isn't difficult, as there are usually only a thousand association codes-- easily dictionary attacked and done by a simple script.

      --
      ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    11. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Mister+Whirly · · Score: 1, Insightful

      White folks just do it differently - often legally and out in the open. Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Chase, etc.

      --
      "But this one goes to 11!"
    12. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Beardo+the+Bearded · · Score: 4, Funny

      In England, it's always Albanians or Romanians. Counts, the lot of them.

      FTFY

      --

      ---
      ECHELON is a government program to find words like bomb, jihad, plutonium, assassinate, and anarchy.
    13. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Relatively simple workaround would be to have a Faraday cage built into the pump housing. That would cut the transmission range down drastically.

      Relatively simple workaround would be two in the hat for the perpetrator . That would cut transmission range to zero.

    14. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wait, what did Chase do? Or are you just listing bank names without actually knowing anything about what went on?

    15. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You're assuming these guys are complying with the spec and not boosting the power....?

    16. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Us white folks don't go for this piddly-shit credit card skimming. We'll steal millions from pension funds and then get charities to invest in our Ponzi schemes instead. Go big or go home!

    17. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Sulphur · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The English don't have Counts, they have Earls. The wife of an Earl is a Countess, go figure. If they made their Earls Counts, then there would not be a shortage in the Counts.

    18. Re:Hiders Keepers? by BrokenHalo · · Score: 4, Informative

      In any case, returning to the issue of range for a moment:

      I have a Belkin F8T012 USB Bluetooth dongle that works quite well at distances well over 100m. (The advertised maximum is 100m.) It wouldn't be hard to make yourself inconspicuous at that distance from the pump.

    19. Re:Hiders Keepers? by hitmark · · Score: 3, Interesting

      and if one get a directional antenna, things get really interesting. Iirc, there is at least one guy thats built something he called a bluetooth sniper rifle with a range of a kilometer or more.

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    20. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thank you! I almost had to log in and bring this up myself. Bluetooth class 1, look it up.
      Wikipedia

    21. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      White folks just do it differently - often legally and out in the open. Goldman Sachs, Morgan Stanley, Bank of America, Chase, etc.

      Fannie Mae: "As WND reported, an Enron-like accounting scandal enabled Raines to earn $90 million in his five years as Fannie Mae CEO, from 1999 to 2004."

      Is this the exception that proves the rule? Don't know, but I'm not a racist like you, Mister Whirly (964219). Did your father teach you that black people aren't smart enough to commit multi-million dollar financial fraud?

    22. Re:Hiders Keepers? by TheLink · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > I'm really thinking the cash idea is the way to go from now on. :-(

      Why? If I get mugged at (or on the way to) the gas station I lose my cash. If my card gets skimmed, I do not lose my money. If many people's cards get skimmed from the same place, I may not even have to dispute the transaction - the card company will just cancel the card, invalidate the transactions and issue me a new card.

      From the article:
      When a card is compromised, however, the card issuer has to reimburse the customer. If incidents of skimming at unattended terminals such as pay-at-the-pump continue to rise, gaps in security may be looked at with more scrutiny.

      Cash may be more private, but cash is definitely not safer than credit cards.

      --
    23. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      Cash may be more private, but cash is definitely not safer than credit cards.

      Sure it is, your only criteria for stating that cash is less safe is that "you might get mugged". If you're regularily getting mugged, you have bigger problems than cash vs credit card. And at least with cash you know if its gone, it might be quite a while before you discover a cloned credit card. As for reimbursement, the last time my cc details were swiped I got credit on the credit card, but still had to pay the accrued (fraudulent) charges from my own bank account. Thats as good as cash you say? Maybe, except I can't withdraw that as cash if I need it, you generally can't pay the rent with a credit card.

      At the end of the day, saying that someone might violently beat you and take your money isn't a valid objection to the use of cash.

    24. Re:Hiders Keepers? by The+Grassy+Knoll · · Score: 1

      Actually, it's mostly Sri Lankans. .

      --
      They will never know the simple pleasure of a monkey knife fight
    25. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Mysticalfruit · · Score: 1

      There's a really obvious thing you could do as well... The secret service could just go to a bank and get a bunch of random credit cards and run them through the skimmer.

      Then sit back and follow the trail...

      --
      Yes Francis, the world has gone crazy.
    26. Re:Hiders Keepers? by n4f · · Score: 1

      All the major banks participated in giving out loans to people who couldn't afford them, and selling them in the securities market. They had to, because everyone else was and the money was too good.

    27. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      Earls in the News: Bertrand Russell

    28. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Chase? Only got about 25 Million in bailout money. Other than that, nothing!

    29. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Mitsoid · · Score: 1

      I'm not sure if that idea would work --
      The BT signal might not broadcast an ID -- or if it does, there's no way to tell that the "Joe's Apple iPhone" is not the skimmer... (at least, not without intimate knowledge of blue tooth technology, the 'addresses' used by each and every BT device -- or access to a database of them -- and the proper tools)

      Though, I'm assuming BT devices have an equivalent of a "MAC address," which they might not.

    30. Re:Hiders Keepers? by mldi · · Score: 1

      I guess I was thinking more along the lines of just simply checking for activity in that frequency range in the vicinity of the gas pump you are using. If there is, I'd find decent reason to get suspicious, considering the range of such a signal. I can't imagine there's a ton of signals hovering around gas pumps.

      --
      If you aren't suspicious of your government's actions, you aren't doing your job as a responsible citizen.
    31. Re:Hiders Keepers? by TheLink · · Score: 1

      "the last time my cc details were swiped I got credit on the credit card, but still had to pay the accrued (fraudulent) charges from my own bank account."

      What's your exposure limit where you are? In the US it's supposed to be USD50 under certain conditions and zero under other conditions, assuming you report it within 2 days of _learning_ of the loss or theft of access.

      If you're in the USA, you got screwed by your bank, and perhaps you should sue them for the money and damages - it's the "American Way" right? ;).

      See section 909:
      http://www.fdic.gov/regulations/laws/rules/6500-1350.html

      Some interpret section 909 as the customer is only liable if the card is stolen or lost, and not liable at all otherwise:

      909. Consumer liability for unauthorized transfers

      (a) A consumer shall be liable for any unauthorized electronic fund transfer involving the account of such consumer only if the card or other means of access utilized for such transfer was an accepted card or other means of access and if the issuer of such card, code, or other means of access has provided a means whereby the user of such card, code, or other means of access can be identified as the person authorized to use it, such as by signature, photograph, or fingerprint or by electronic or mechanical confirmation. In no event, however, shall a consumer's liability for an unauthorized transfer exceed the lesser of--

      (1) $50; or

      (2) the amount of money or value of property or services obtained in such unauthorized electronic fund transfer prior to the time the financial institution is notified of, or otherwise becomes aware of, circumstances which lead to the reasonable belief that an unauthorized electronic fund transfer involving the consumer's account has been or may be effected. Notice under this paragraph is sufficient when such steps have been taken as may be reasonably required in the ordinary course of business to provide the financial institution with the pertinent information, whether or not any particular officer, employee, or agent of the financial institution does in fact receive such information.

      Notwithstanding the foregoing, reimbursement need not be made to the consumer for losses the financial institution establishes would not have occurred but for the failure of the consumer to report within sixty days of transmittal of the statement (or in extenuating circumstances such as extended travel or hospitalization, within a reasonable time under the circumstances) any unauthorized electronic fund transfer or account error which appears on the periodic statement provided to the consumer under section 906. In addition, reimbursement need not be made to the consumer for losses which the financial institution establishes would not have occurred but for the failure of the consumer to report any loss or theft of a card or other means of access within two business days after the consumer learns of the loss or theft (or in extenuating circumstances such as extended travel or hospitalization, within a longer period which is reasonable under the circumstances), but the consumer's liability under this subsection in any such case may not exceed a total of $500, or the amount of unauthorized electronic fund transfers which occur following the close of two business days (or such longer period) after the consumer learns of the loss or theft but prior to notice to the financial institution under this subsection, whichever is less.

      (b) In any action which involves a consumer's liability for an unauthorized electronic fund transfer, the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to show that the electronic fund transfer was authorized or, if the electronic fund transfer was unauthorized, then the burden of proof is upon the financial institution to establish that the conditions of liability set forth in subsection (a) have been met, and, if the transfer was initiated after the effective date of section 9

      --
    32. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah I know your name is Dan, I can see that in your user name at the top of your post dingus.

      Dan

    33. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why do you assume credit card skimming gangsters would still use FCC compliant devices for their crimes?

    34. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the card company will just cancel the card, invalidate the transactions and issue me a new card

      It's not just that simple. Once they cancel the card, and issue you new one, it takes several days to get, meaning you have no card until that time. If it is an ATM card, you have no ATM access to get cash (unless you walk in the bank) until you get the new card. If you use that account for online bill/accounts like PayPal, auto-debit for utility bills, etc, you have to contact all those accounts and update with the new card info.

      It also takes the bank several weeks to investigate your fraud claim and return the money.

      I had my ATM card skimmed/cloned/whatever and all of these things happened to me.

    35. Re:Hiders Keepers? by dkleinsc · · Score: 1

      To quote one of them: "1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10! 10 compromised credit cards. Ah ah ah!"

      --
      I am officially gone from /. Long live http://www.soylentnews.com/
    36. Re:Hiders Keepers? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pointing out that 90% of the executives at those corporations are white is hardly racist. That is just a statistic, and numbers can't be racist.

    37. Re:Hiders Keepers? by 56ker · · Score: 1

      From what I remember card skimming has been going on locally here in the UK too. I remember a report from the police into it a while ago; although they didn't go into as much detail about the devices used.

      Here most cards are "chip and pin" so you need the magstripe, chip and PIN to make a transaction.

      However in foreign countries, especially over the phone or internet where a PIN can't be entered, the information on the magstripe eg card number/expiry date can be enough. The trouble with foreign transactions is they can take days after the transaction before the bank reports them.

      Many people with high limits wouldn't notice until the end of the month, or if their card gets declined for hitting its limit. There are people who can view their credit card statements online; which reduces the risk of a fraud going unnoticed for longer periods.

      Either way its fraud, which banks have systems in place to detect, however fraud/Identity theft is hard for the police to investigate and prosecute without evidence eg fingerprints, mobile phone numbers, details of where the fraudulent sales were sent to etc.

      I've known fraudsters use stolen card details to top up a mobile phone; others have just gone on a spending spree. A similar con is writing cheques that'll bounce (although that does at least give the retailer (and in States District Attorney) a name or names as well as address (from the bank or cheque) to prosecute.

  2. Do they really need a key? by localman57 · · Score: 1

    It seems that the sort of people dedicated enough to develop this attack would also be able to learn to pick locks. I don't know for sure, but I'd guess that a gas pump lock isn't very tough to pick. There's no reason that most people would want to open a gas pump, so there's no reason to use a very expensive, pick resistant lock on it.

    1. Re:Do they really need a key? by Aladrin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Not many want to, no... But all those that want to do so illegally have really, really bad plans in store. It's enough to offset the relatively small number and need a good lock.

      I don't know that they DO have them, but they should.

      --
      "If you make people think they're thinking, they'll love you; But if you really make them think, they'll hate you." - DM
    2. Re:Do they really need a key? by photogchris · · Score: 1

      Saw something on Discovery involving a competitive lock picker. He was given a normal off the self dead bolt to pick, took about 30 seconds. Next was a commercial dead bolt. After a few minutes he stated it could take him up to two hours to pick. Sure, could be hype and not the same as a fuel pump lock. But, if true I would guess picking a commercial lock on a fuel pump would not be so easy.

    3. Re:Do they really need a key? by Peach+Rings · · Score: 1

      I lold at this quote from TFA:

      "It's certainly a concern and an issue that's been around for a while," he says. "They're easy to get in to. One would think that each specific gas station would have a key," but that's the case.

    4. Re:Do they really need a key? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      There's no reason they have to even open the gas pump to pull it off though, and thats the problem. Pull up with a big SUV so that the Gas pump card reader isn't in view of any cameras. Next, pull your bluetooth reader, which can be smaller in size than a candy bar, put it on over the card reader and attach it with glue such that it is inconspicuous. Finish pumping gas. Go inside, Go to the bathroom. Hide your bluetooth reciever in the ceiling tiles. Come back every 3 days and be that creep that all the gas station attendants know as "that guy who goes straight to the washroom everytime. Gross". Grab the info, profit.

    5. Re:Do they really need a key? by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      But all those that want to do so illegally have really, really bad plans in store

      Believe it or not, almost zero crime has to do with terrah, in certain locations in colder climates you get a lot of home heating oil siphoned off from external tanks because it could save the thieves a few hundred euros to heat their own homes. We've had to put locks on the tanks in my area. Same thing goes for fuel pumps, it might not seem worth the risk to you, but a couple thousand dollars worth of gas could be well worth it to others.

    6. Re:Do they really need a key? by LBt1st · · Score: 1

      I spent some time working at a gas station and had to access to the gas pumps. The locks are nothing special (at least at the station I worked at). Nothing more then what you'd find on a desk drawer or filing cabinet. Probably because they assume there's nothing of real value in there. I don't think these would be hard to pick.
      Even if they were though, a gas station employee could easily be involved directly/bribed/conned/etc to give up a key or a copy.

  3. No worries here. by The+MAZZTer · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I always pay for gas in cash. I think I will not change this personal policy in the near future.

    1. Re:No worries here. by AnonymousClown · · Score: 0, Troll
      And if the clerk pockets the cash and calls the cops on you to cover the theft?

      Here's a 20 for pump #2. *pumps $20 worth of gas and takes off*.

      Nah.

      It won't happen.

      --
      RIP America

      July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

    2. Re:No worries here. by pgmrdlm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You get a receipt? Peace of paper with the time, date, and transaction. Are you always in the habit of paying for anything, no matter how you pay for it, without receiving a receipt???????

      --
      Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
    3. Re:No worries here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All the pumps here require the attendant to activate the pump before it will let you fill, in other words, prepay. Plus they are on camera, just like you.

      So no, it's not going to happen, especially if you ask for a receipt, like I always do.

    4. Re:No worries here. by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      The only problem with paying cash for gas is that I generally like to fill up every time, and I don't have any buddies working the local gas station anymore, so there is no way anyone is going to let me fill up before I pay in cash.

    5. Re:No worries here. by chargersfan420 · · Score: 1

      Modded funny? This is actually an excellent policy. Personally, even if paying by debit or credit card, I always make sure I have enough cash to cover the purchase of gas, just in case of some electronic malfunction occurring with the debit / credit systems. I'd really hate to have them try to remove gas from my car because they couldn't take my plastic money.

      Also, to the other "child" posts to this one, where I live (Canada) you often have to pre-pay for gas before filling up, to prevent "gas & go" type crimes. Paying in advance is not a problem but almost mandatory in some cases, especially late at night, when a "gas & go" is more likely to occur.

    6. Re:No worries here. by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      You can often leave an ID with the clerk at the counter and they'll turn it on for you. At least they will around here.

    7. Re:No worries here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      When paying for gas with credit card, printing a receipt is optional. You can keep track of gas expense by looking at credit card account online.

    8. Re:No worries here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      are you an idiot? you can always pay like $60 or whatever, and if the tank is full before the money runs out you go back and they give you change!!!

    9. Re:No worries here. by pgmrdlm · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I was trying to dispute the position of the previous AC.

      And if the clerk pockets the cash and calls the cops on you to cover the theft? Here's a 20 for pump #2. *pumps $20 worth of gas and takes off*.

      Just saying, ask for a receipt if your worried about the clerk pocketing your cash. Have proof of your purchase.

      --
      Anonymous comments are as pathetic as the anonymous "sources" that contaminate gutless journalism from the New York Time
    10. Re:No worries here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Geez, this is slashdot? Any shmoe out of HS should be able to do a quick mental calc to get within 10% of full. Oh noes! I might have to visit a gas station 5% more than otherwise!

    11. Re:No worries here. by Dare+nMc · · Score: 1

      This is slashdot where we can log every fill-up and resulting MPG to a graph, then analyze details like, is synthetic worth it(for differential fluid = yes, engine oil was no), how much MPG is ethanol stealing (10% on carburetored motorcycle, EFI is insignificant.) ...

    12. Re:No worries here. by arkane1234 · · Score: 1

      Not to mention that it's next to impossible to do a pump-and-run on a prepaid pump...

      --
      -- This space for lease, low setup fee, inquire within!
    13. Re:No worries here. by ikkonoishi · · Score: 1

      The pump won't pump if the cashier doesn't ring up the prepay, and there are such things as cameras.

    14. Re:No worries here. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      (10% on carburetored motorcycle, EFI is insignificant.) ...

      Thx I was actually planning on looking into that

    15. Re:No worries here. by MaskedSlacker · · Score: 2, Informative

      I haven't been to a gas station where this was possible...ever. Every pump I've ever used had to be authorized by the attendant, you couldn't just pump and go.

    16. Re:No worries here. by lowrydr310 · · Score: 1

      It's much more common in rural areas, or at least it used to be. Prior to $3 a gallon gas, I could pump first before paying at any station in my hometown. Once gas topped $3 a gallon however there was a large increase in driveoffs; and nearly every one of them was prosecuted. Apparently those rural people in my hometown don't realize that CCTV cameras are everywhere, and that police can look up your license plate number and find out where you live.

    17. Re:No worries here. by kyrio · · Score: 3, Informative

      Where you live (some place in Canada) is not the same as everywhere in (Canada). In Toronto and likely most of Ontario, you only have to prepay when it's late at night or a bad area of the city (or both).

  4. ATM Skimmer by Thelasko · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've noticed that my bank has introduced new ATM's to combat skimming. The card reader now has flashing lights, and the display shows a picture of what the card reader should look like.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    1. Re:ATM Skimmer by NevarMore · · Score: 1

      Which bank?

    2. Re:ATM Skimmer by kent_eh · · Score: 1

      Royal Bank of Canada, among others.

      --

      ---
      "I can't complain, but sometimes still do..." Joe Walsh
    3. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      This is not new in Europe. Every ATM now has it. Also sine 3-4 years ago all cards have a chip in them. The transaction is authorized by the chip in a real-time two way communication, and you have to punch in the pin code. But that is never going to happen here in US, primary because it means no tips. But why bug gas stations - just go work as a waiter, or at any cash register desk and just routinely slide the card through a second reader. In EU the waiter at a restaurant has to bring the POS terminal to your table. You insert the card into the slot, while the card is in the slot the waiter puts in the amount, you check it, decide to tip or not, put the amount of tip in, then dial your pin code. Then the chip on the card already connected with the bank of the POS terminal starts to make the transaction, the bank proxies that transaction to your bank, the chip on the card talks with your bank, and it's done, money are wired from you account to the merchant account. Plain and simple, and in no more than 10 seconds you get an SMS on your cell phone - hey - merchant XXX, pos terminal ID YYY just withdrew 20 euro from your card ending in ..... If it's not you, you pick up the phone, call your bank and just tell them it is not you. And that's it.. the merchant cannot change the amount you were billed at a later time. Here in US you have to wait up to 5 days to have it posted and it could get changed a lot (usually because of the tips).

      You have to decide whether you want a convenience of just waving your card in front of a cash register, or you want the security of actually allowing the transfer of funds from your account. As for the banks - it will always be easier and more profitable to have the people loose their money and go into debt. That is why only a strong government regulation can make them change something. On a little bit of side not - in Europe if you don;t have enough funds in your card the transaction is refused and no penalty is payed. Here, because of the delay in posting transactions you could easily overdraw your card, and get charged 50 for each transfer after the limit.

      So.. decide.. convenience or security.

    4. Re:ATM Skimmer by Itninja · · Score: 1

      Chase has this as well. Along with these cool 'deposit friendly' ATM's that let me insert 50 checks at once without a deposit slip.

      --
      I judt got a nre Kinesis keybiartf so please excusr ant egregiou typos.
    5. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      According to my father, who is a Branch Manager at Citibank, the Citi ATMs now have a system that shuts down the ATM completely (ie. the screen goes blank, the CPU shuts off, and the cash gets locked down) if any metal/magnets are placed on/near the card reader. To reboot, the ATM has to be opened (usually from the inside of the building) and manually reset. All to help avoid skimmers.

      However, I've stuck my magnetic billfold right on top of the card reader and nothing happened, so YMMV.

    6. Re:ATM Skimmer by nunojsilva · · Score: 1

      The card reader display shows what the card reader should look like?

      And if someone is able to compromise both the card and that image of "what it should look like"?

      In this kind of situation it is better to have banks telling people — through another medium — what the terminals should look like. (But in some countries this might not be possible, if every bank/network has its own design)

    7. Re:ATM Skimmer by kaiidth · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The point, as far as I can tell, is that there are many chances to bolt on external junk, whilst it's pretty difficult/unusual to be able to compromise the ATM itself. External devices are just opportunistic ways of reading the data off your card (ie. magnetic strip, maybe a camera to read out the PIN as the user inputs it). I suppose you could place an overlay on the screen, but it sounds like a lot of work compared to a little magnetic strip reader.

      If you'd managed to compromise the ATM (so as to be able to change the image displayed on that particular screen) you wouldn't need to bolt anything onto the outside at all - the ATM knows everything you're likely to want to steal. But then, if you were able to successfully hack an ATM, why waste time skimming credit card numbers?

    8. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      no, the ATM display shows what the card reader looks like. all skimmers I know of either just sit over the card reader with a cam pointed at the keypad or area two-part job over card reader + keypad. So in order to circumvent this the crook would have to install a fake display, too. at that point it'd probably be easier to just put up a whole fake ATM...

    9. Re:ATM Skimmer by ColdWetDog · · Score: 0

      However, I've stuck my magnetic billfold right on top of the card reader and nothing happened, so YMMV.

      Magnetic billfold?

      Is this some sort of weird geek kink that I don't want to know about?

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    10. Re:ATM Skimmer by spazdor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you aren't already versed in the finer points of duck-fucking, you shouldn't ask.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    11. Re:ATM Skimmer by spazdor · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And if someone is able to compromise both the card and that image of "what it should look like"?

      If an attacker has sufficient access to change what's being displayed on the ATM screen, then they can probably skip the external card-reader and just yoink the customer's bank data out of RAM.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    12. Re:ATM Skimmer by phorm · · Score: 1

      OK, so thieves add a skimmer with flashing lights, or paste a sticker of the modified reader over the existing one...

    13. Re:ATM Skimmer by Cerium · · Score: 1

      The bank I go through here in the states also has the SMS bit -- it's great. I wish they did the other stuff you said, though.

    14. Re:ATM Skimmer by proxima · · Score: 1

      The transaction is authorized by the chip in a real-time two way communication, and you have to punch in the pin code. But that is never going to happen here in US, primary because it means no tips.

      Couldn't they simply authorize a transaction for, say, 2x the amount on the bill? Then you specify how much you want to tip, the the transaction actually goes through. It's my understanding that pre-authorization of certain amounts is a routine part of the credit card system.

      Even for those of us with chip-less credit cards, the European system is more secure, though. No waitstaff takes your card for 10 minutes and does whatever they want with it.

      --
      "The universe seems neither benign nor hostile, merely indifferent." --Carl Sagan
    15. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Informative

      Canada has the same setup. More transactions are done through debit in this country than are done through cash.

    16. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is not new in Europe. Every ATM now has it. Also sine 3-4 years ago all cards have a chip in them. The transaction is authorized by the chip in a real-time two way communication, and you have to punch in the pin code. But that is never going to happen here in US, primary because it means no tips.

      Um, what? No, the waiter will just have to you know, TALK to the customer and ask what the tip will be, then add it to the bill. Then the customer authorizes the entire amount.

    17. Re:ATM Skimmer by tlhIngan · · Score: 1

      Couldn't they simply authorize a transaction for, say, 2x the amount on the bill? Then you specify how much you want to tip, the the transaction actually goes through. It's my understanding that pre-authorization of certain amounts is a routine part of the credit card system.

      Even for those of us with chip-less credit cards, the European system is more secure, though. No waitstaff takes your card for 10 minutes and does whatever they want with it.

      That's how it's done right now. If it wasn't possible, the whole e-commerce thing would collapse because the authorization hold is extremely fundamental to how e-commerce works.

      Restaurants typically have machines do a hold for about 20% more than charged to allow for the tip. The actual amount charged is when the bill is settled.

      Gas stations typically pre-authorize hold $100 when you swipe the card. This caused a bit of a problem with someone who was near their credit limit and needed to put $20 of gas in the tank. Also when gas prices shot up and people found that they could only fill their SUVs $100 at a time. When you're done pumping, the final bill ($100 or under) is then charged and the hold removed.

      Online shopping do holds when you click "Place Order", and the actual amount is only charged when the item ships.

      The mechanism basically temporarily reduces your credit limit to ensure your card can be charged the proper amount later (at which point the hold is released).

      Funny thing about restaurant tips - it turns out unless you make the total come out an even number, the restaurants can do funny things with the value. They never exceed the total you marked, but they don't always charge what you marked, either (i.e., they shortchange the tip). The experiment conducted was simple - since the dollar amount represents the tip, you have the cents column to use as a (geeky) 6 bit bitfield (nearly 7 bits if you allow the top two bits to only take the values 00, 01, and 10, while the other 5 can be anything) which you can code various things. The goal was simple - encode a quick review (00 - bad, 01 - OK, 10 - coming back), whether they do alcohol, and other parameters. Problem was, it didn't work because the cents column varied from what he encoded (the values didn't make sense, for example).

    18. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Since it's in the EU, the likely merchant processor is a little company called Elan. They're the biggest in Europe.

      That is a subsidiary of US Bank...guess where US Bank primarily does business?
      The only reason this doesn't happen in the US is that no one hear wants to have the waiter standing over them while they type in the tip.

      5 days to post is unusual and excessive....typically you only see that from gas pumps.

      And banks lose millions of dollars a month to credit card fraud. If you think it's really cheaper for them to just allow it, you're a complete idiot.

      The problem is that credit cards must compete with cash; therefore, they must be at least as easy to use as cash.
      The reason the EU has more stringent security is that Europeans like to walk around with big wads of cash to pay for everything - credit card uptake is very slow there, even today. It's hoped these measures get them to begin using plastic, but so far it's not happening. I guess getting robbed is considered a safer bet.

    19. Re:ATM Skimmer by Mr+Muppet · · Score: 2, Informative

      On my few trips to the US, there's something I've always been a bit wary of, yet it seems common practice... When I pay for things at the checkout, I hand over my credit card, they give it back to me, then I sign for it without having my signature checked to see if it matches the card.

      Over here (UK), I know we have Chip & Pin now, but before then, the cashier would keep your card and check your signature against the one on the card before handing it back .I used to do that job, once had a guy sign nothing like the one on the card, claimed it was his boyfriend's card. As per company policy, I rang the bank's authorisation phone number, they told me to destroy and return the card to the bank!

    20. Re:ATM Skimmer by Malc · · Score: 1

      I don't see why chip+pin readers prevent tipping. The terminal can prompt for a tip amount before agreeing the final total and prompting for the pin.

    21. Re:ATM Skimmer by sjames · · Score: 1

      So pranksters with their 'magnetic bracelet' to 'cure arthritis' can have fun all over town with absolutely no way to prove intent to cause a problem? Cool!

    22. Re:ATM Skimmer by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      I used to have a ton of problems with ING, where somehow the holds (from hotels) were staying there for weeks after I'd checked out. Somehow it wasn't matching the payment to the hold and clearing the latter, thus it was double counting and maxing out my card.

      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
    23. Re:ATM Skimmer by Falconhell · · Score: 1

      Couldnt employees be paid properly so there is no need for tips?

      In .au tipping is very rare, 'cause we pay decent wages.

    24. Re:ATM Skimmer by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      I guess getting robbed is considered a safer bet.

      I have to wonder what kind of dysfunctional area you'd have to live in that getting robbed would not be a regular problem. Or to put it another way, you'd only recommend credit card use to people living in dangerous shanty town slums? And hey, if worst comes to worst, at least you can tell a strung out junkie mugger that you only have credit cards on you, I'm sure he'll apologise and find a juicier target to go after, no harm no foul.

    25. Re:ATM Skimmer by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      "would be a regular problem" I mean. Ah slashdot, the only forum on earth without an edit button.

    26. Re:ATM Skimmer by maeka · · Score: 0, Troll

      And as I am remembered every time I go there, the fact tipping is not common practice shows in the shitty service.

    27. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But why bug gas stations - just go work as a waiter, or at any cash register desk and just routinely slide the card through a second reader.

      Bugging a gas station can be done anonymously. Waiters and store clerks are routinely caught. To catch a waiter, the bank looks for a common transaction that all the stolen cards have in common. Most restaurants can tie the transaction back to the waiter that took the order.

    28. Re:ATM Skimmer by rapiddescent · · Score: 1

      Royal Bank of Scotland (and many uk banks) use "Judder" technology so that the card is randomly juddered as it the ATM sucks the card into the chip reader. This makes the job of an external card reader much harder. Whilst (here in scotland) we don't really use magnetic stripes anymore - it is useful technology because there was a material fraud loss from other countries that do use mag stripes with scottish cards.

    29. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And chip and pin is broken anyhow...

      http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/research/security/banking/nopin/press-release.html

      (Posted as anon, as I used to work in the industry.)

    30. Re:ATM Skimmer by Von+Helmet · · Score: 1

      It doesn't mean "no tips" at all. I have used card readers that prompt you for a tip. The waiter starts out by putting in the amount of the bill, then gives you the reader. At this point, the reader asks if you want to tip, and if you say yes, it asks you how much and you put the amount in. The reader then gives you the total to check, and if you're happy with it, you put in your PIN and the job is done.

      In relation to other things people have said in this thread, it's interesting to see how things have evolved in the UK as regards how people feel about letting their cards out of their sight. Some places still want you to sign receipts rather than using Chip and Pin so they'll take your cards away to the till rather than bringing a Chip and Pin machine to you. When I've been out with people and that's happened, people have been vocally concerned about their cards being taken away, where previously you'd never have really given it a second thought.

    31. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So, this morning, I look in the paper, some cash machine in like Bumsville Idaho, spits out seven hundred dollars into the middle of the street.

    32. Re:ATM Skimmer by ricosalomar · · Score: 1

      Never been to AU, sadly. But I've been to 35 or so other countries, and those that don't have tipping seem to have bad service. Lovely people, spectacular culture, but crap service.

    33. Re:ATM Skimmer by GWRedDragon · · Score: 1

      no, the ATM display shows what the card reader looks like. all skimmers I know of either just sit over the card reader with a cam pointed at the keypad or area two-part job over card reader + keypad. So in order to circumvent this the crook would have to install a fake display, too. at that point it'd probably be easier to just put up a whole fake ATM...

      More likely if the thieves were worried about the image, they could just make up an official looking sticker or something to slap on the machine that says something like, "the reader on this machine has been upgraded for your safety, please ensure that the reader device looks like this:" with a picture of the compromised device.

    34. Re:ATM Skimmer by spazdor · · Score: 1

      What're you, stoned or stupid? You don't hack a bank across state lines from your house.

      --
      DRM: Terminator crops for your mind!
    35. Re:ATM Skimmer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      s/remembered/reminded/

    36. Re:ATM Skimmer by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      Exactly correct sir. My eyes bleed enough as it is.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  5. bluetooth by confused+one · · Score: 5, Informative

    Does this mean an accomplice has to hang around within 3m of the pump?

    No, a Class 1 Bluetooth device has a range of up to 100m.

    1. Re:bluetooth by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      when I was involved in the very first bluetooth development ~10 years ago, afair we got close to 500meters on a good day with 20dBm and the standard pcb antenna

    2. Re:bluetooth by TheLink · · Score: 1

      And that's nominal. I'm sure you can do much better if you use a better antenna and are not such a stickler for standards.

      --
    3. Re:bluetooth by crossmr · · Score: 1

      that's okay. We can't expect Kdawson to know anything that one could easily google in under a minute. At first I thought Slashdot just hired someone's retarded cousin to do this stuff, but now I'm convinced Kdawson is just one of those bobbing birds let loose on a keyboard and attached to one of those spiral drawing toys.

      It is just phenomenal that he is continued to allowed to do what he does here.

    4. Re:bluetooth by confused+one · · Score: 1

      Antenna is key. Bluetooth Class 1 allows 100mW power. I've done several miles at 100mW using amateur radio in the 2m and 70cm band.

  6. Doesnt sound overly hard to by kaptink · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why don't they make gas stations check their pumps once a day for skimmers? Perhaps when they set the price in the morning. Seems relatively simple.

    --
    Those who can, do. Those who cannot, sue.
    1. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Your gas station must have more initiative than mine. At the one closest to my job they let a dead cat sit by the side of the building until it smelled so bad they couldn't ignore it anymore.

    2. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by dan_linder · · Score: 1

      At most gas stations the price setting is done remotely from inside the building (probably along with the big digital sign price too).

      Dan

    3. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by nizo · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I wonder how man skimmers are installed by the person with the key to the gas pump? Checking wouldn't do much good if the guy checking the pump is the one who installed the skimmer.

    4. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by moogied · · Score: 1

      Gas station employees. Not gas pump technicians.

      --
      So basically, -1 troll/offtopic is really slashdots way of saying "I hate that you thought of something before me."
    5. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by vlm · · Score: 1

      Why don't they make gas stations check their pumps once a day for skimmers? Perhaps when they set the price in the morning. Seems relatively simple.

      Being "in" on the scam is even simpler. Especially if you don't need management approval, merely minimum wage McJob worker approval.

      --
      "Science flies us to the moon. Religion flies us into buildings." - Victor Stenger
    6. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by blair1q · · Score: 2, Informative

      Because gas stations are no longer gas stations manned by trained mechanics. They are convenience stores, manned by people who generally don't have any control or technical knowledge of the pumps. Prices are set over the internet. About all the cashier can do is put a yellow bag over the handle if there's a complaint about a pump, and call it in.

    7. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Haffner · · Score: 1

      Because the type of person who works at a gas station is hardly the type of person who can be trained to identify sophisticated electronics. Also, if, like previous commenters suggest, the bluetooth addition forces the pump to be dissasembled, you are talking about adding significantly to the cost of the gas station owner. It's another reincarnation of the old formula: if (cost to fix problem - cost of letting problem go unfixed > 0) then don't fix problem, else hire lobbyists.

      --
      "Going to war without the French is like going deer hunting without your accordion." ~General Norman Schwarzkopf
    8. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by EmagGeek · · Score: 1

      I imagine it's because it's too labor-intensive and too expensive, and making a routine out of opening the pumps would probably only make it easier for criminals to gain access to them.

    9. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Hey now, don't insult gas station attendants. Some of them are Slashdot's most prolific posters. I think a couple are even editors here.

    10. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by TavisJohn · · Score: 1

      Maybe the gas station employees are putting these things in the pumps.

      Maybe the pumps can have intrusion sensors installed, so that the computers that control them can also log when the pumps are opened. If they are opened when it is not scheduled then the pumps can be remotely shut down and then inspected. That combined with video surveillance they can then file a civil suit for the cost of the repairs to the pumps.

    11. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      I've seen it done. The clerk never moves from behind the counter. They just punch in the number to a machine and all the pumps and signs update instantly.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    12. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by camperdave · · Score: 1

      Why don't they make gas stations check their pumps once a day for skimmers? Perhaps when they set the price in the morning. Seems relatively simple.

      Trusting sort, aren't you?

      If a gas station employee is going to go through all the trouble of installing a skimmer, then what's to prevent him/her from lying about whether one is installed?

      What's needed is an end-to-end validation system. My card needs to tell me if I'm connected over a secure, untampered channel to my bank; maybe some LEDs along with the chip (that's right, ditch the magnetic stripe). My bank needs to know that it is a valid card; perhaps some sort of one time pad that's burned into the card at time of issuance.

      Oh, and I don't think they set the price at the pumps anymore. That's done remotely from the control booth, or possibly from a central location for the chain.

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    13. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Nadaka · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I was a gas station attendant for 3 years while getting my college degrees.

      It was a nice easy job with fringe benefits like the ability to do homework on the job, free soda fountain mountain dew and access to jailbait.

      At one time we had me - a CS major doing AI research and a Nuclear Physics major on her way to the Air Force Academy running the night shift.

      Most of the people who can't handle the gas station clerk position think exactly like you do,
      except they don't realize that they have to do paperwork at the end of each shift and quit because division is to hard.

    14. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They only need to have the card scanner in place for a short period (say an hour or two) to get enough credit cards, then they move on to the next target.

    15. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by squallbsr · · Score: 1

      Hmm, I had the key to the gas pumps - I'm no pump technician. Of course our pumps still had mechanical dials and the max price of fuel was 2.99/gal...

      Anyway, there is a key to the printer on current digital pumps, so the receiver could be stashed inside the pump without needing to be a tech.

      --
      Sleep: A completely inadequate substitution for Caffeine.
    16. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      one time pad? better an RSA key
      Of course then you have to build processing power into the card to use that key

    17. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Better yet they should leave them all unlocked so people can check for skimmers themselves.

    18. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by xaxa · · Score: 1

      Using public key cryptography your card can know it's communicating with a real terminal, and the bank can know it's a real card. You card can then "sign" the transaction.

      All my cards have chips. They all have magnetic stripes too, so they work in the USA, although maybe it'd be cheaper for my bank if the standard card didn't have one, and I had to ask for a card with a magstripe if I wanted to use it outside much of Europe and a few other places. People stealing the magstripe data still happens here, although the fraud is carried out elsewhere (sometimes America) where a magstripe transaction will be accepted.

    19. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Even in situations where there isn't an inside man(and I'm sure that there sometimes is), a scheme that habituates the employees, anybody monitoring the CCTV cameras, and the public at large, to people frequently opening and poking at the pumps is likely to decrease security, rather than increase it.

      The uniforms of gas station employees aren't exactly secret, nor are clothes that look very much like them hard to get ahold of(given that they are generally just plaincloths, or mechanic-style coveralls, possibly with silkscreened logos), so it would be pretty trivial to concoct a plausible disguise in which to tamper with the device.

    20. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by socsoc · · Score: 1

      Closing out your drawer requires division?

    21. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by molecular · · Score: 1

      talked to a guy at a shell-station in europe. He said the prices are updated remotely via network. They change multiple times a day.

    22. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      Gas stations generally aren't required to protect your info though, the only laws regarding that are that any reciepts which print the card # have to be *'d out.

    23. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by molecular · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's needed is an end-to-end validation system. My card needs to tell me if I'm connected over a secure, untampered channel to my bank; maybe some LEDs along with the chip (that's right, ditch the magnetic stripe). My bank needs to know that it is a valid card; perhaps some sort of one time pad that's burned into the card at time of issuance.
       

      you mean a cryptographic smartcard that has the private key on chip and never tell it like this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card#Cryptographic_smart_cards ?

    24. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Interesting

      While a CC system that doesn't utterly suck, and trust pretty much every link in the chain like it would its own mother, after she had been notarized and presented two forms of photo ID, I suspect that we could be waiting a while for that...

      In the meantime, I'm curious why the "card path" of any exposed payment system would be designed such that it has internal voids where 3rd party hardware can be stashed. A mag-stripe reader is just a surface, with a few mm of electronics behind it. Generally, because people aren't too good at keeping their card at just the right distance, you mount the reader parallel to a passive plate a few mm away, through which the card is run. With a surface channel design, the attacker has to stick their skimmer onto the surface, where it can be detected by visual inspection(made easier if the card slot has blinkenlights, a highly specific shape, certain color/pattern, etc.)

      If, for some reason, an internal card path must be used, so that the card can be held on to during the transaction or whatever, one could still make sure that the internal chamber is small enough to admit only a card, and that the eject mechanism doesn't just pop the card halfway out; but actually completely scrapes out the internal chamber each cycle(in order to remove, say, a thin-film reader fabricated on a sticky backed piece of flexible circuit board)...

      Good mechanical design won't stop all skimmers; because people may not notice even a fairly blatant one just taped on top of the actual reader; but it should be fairly easy, with good design of the card path, to make it impossible to mount an internal reader without doing some in-situ metalworking.

    25. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by camperdave · · Score: 1

      I have yet to see a card that indicates whether the reader is valid. Do your cards have any sort of display or indicator on your card?

      --
      When our name is on the back of your car, we're behind you all the way!
    26. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Most of the people who can't handle the gas station clerk position think exactly like you do,
      except they don't realize that they have to do paperwork at the end of each shift and quit because division is to hard.

      The problem is that not every gas station is structured like that. I worked at a Gas station for 2 and a half years, and they basically had 3 people on duty at all times. 2 to run the tills, maintain the cleanliness of the store, and watch the pumps. 1 would be in the back office, doing that paperwork and occaisonally watching security cams. The only paperwork the front line people had to do was count out their till to $100 each time their shift began and ended. Anyone with a pulse could have worked that job. The only way to keep that job was to NOT steal money.)

      And while I wouldn't expect much from even those people, I think they could identify a card reader if taught how. It's as easy as saying "Look at this specific part of the pump. Remember how it looks. Every morning I want you to look at it. If it ever looks different, inform me."

    27. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by xaxa · · Score: 2, Interesting

      No, although I saw a picture of a card with a tiny LCD screen somewhere. That would be useful to verify the amount -- someone could tamper with a terminal's display to show one amount, but ask the card to authenticate a different amount.

      I don't know whether there's a key in the terminal that the card can validate...

      There's been a case where tampered readers have led to fraud (see "Successful attacks"), but that relied on using non-EMV transactions.

      I also have one of these, which so far my bank only uses to validate money transfers on online banking, but could be used to validate web purchases too.

    28. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by frnic · · Score: 1

      With stations reducing employees due to the economy I can assure you that checking a dozen pumps every morning is NOT going to happen. That is close to 1/2 hour added to the managers morning routine which is already packed.

    29. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      division is to hard

      ooh ooh! I know this one!
      division is to hard as gas station attendant is to job.
      right?

    30. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Sulphur · · Score: 1

      they let a dead cat sit by the side of the building until it smelled so bad they couldn't ignore it anymore.

      Nine days later?

    31. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Most tech crime is an inside job!

    32. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That only works if they can't be bribed by somebody attaching an electronic doodad to the card reader section of the pump. Just because they don't steal directly from the station coffer (which may be easily detected and get them fired) doesn't mean they can't be tempted otherwise (by schemes that don't show up on gas station accounting). If the pay isn't so great, don't be surprised if bribe here or there gets a station attendant to look the other way. The attendant might even be the one putting the skimmer on the pump, and do everything to be the "best" employee at the gas station in order to keep their scam going. Thieves like this will happily smile at a request to look for anything strange on the pumps and would say "Sure boss! Will do!"

      The only way to ensure that no attendants are in on the take in such schemes is if the local law enforcement decides it's enough of a problem to run a sting operation. Not only looking for signs of pump tampering, but also trying to weed out people willing to be in on the take.

    33. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Random trivia :
      In Australia, some bank ATMs (Westpac) make the card judder as it comes out (it comes out fairly slowly).
      I though it was just shitty ATMS, but then on the display one day I noticed that it said
      "for security reasons you card will judder when ejected" among the usual "hide your PIN" stuff.

      Anyone know what the juddering achieves? Just to add, the juddering isn't particularly violent, maybe a bit stronger than a mobile phone vibration, but a little lower in frequency.

    34. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Darkman,+Walkin+Dude · · Score: 1

      and access to jailbait

      Wait, what?

    35. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by ModelX · · Score: 1

      In the meantime, I'm curious why the "card path" of any exposed payment system would be designed such that it has internal voids where 3rd party hardware can be stashed. A mag-stripe reader is just a surface, with a few mm of electronics behind it.

      That's not how they do it. They either attach a second card reader chip to the pins or wires that go to existing head or attach some nearly transparent head+electronics at some external place that's highly likely to be close to the the card stripe.

    36. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Because gas stations are no longer gas stations manned by trained mechanics. They are convenience stores, manned by people who generally don't have any control or technical knowledge of the pumps. .

      Wait.. are you nostalgic for the days when cars needed repairs as frequently as they needed fill-ups?

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    37. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      Parent makes a very good point though. Storage is now so cheap that it actually would be feasible, if you could generate enough bits, to simply store a mass of bits on the card itself to use as a OTP for transaction data. How many bytes do you really need for "authorize [amount] in [currency] on [date] to [vendor name] from [user name]"

      Surely, the barriers to building a real cryptographic card are very low and falling even still. My guess is that the banks are simply too large and the management has too many aging MBAs who spend all their time at the golf course "networking" that simply aren't even aware of what their options are. Let alone smart enough to start a project to implement one of them.

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    38. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by maevius · · Score: 1

      having programmed EMV terminals, first of all the pin is encrypted by the card chip so there is a way for the bank to verify that the card is authentic. In order for the terminals to be EMV certified, the terminal prompts are saved on a seperate file that has to by digitally signed by the terminal vendor in order to be used, so if the prompts are misleading they can be traced back to the person who signed the prompts, usually by the development team. The terminal is not validated by the card (it's not possible because there are way to many issuers/acquirers), but it is validated by the bank server. The terminals are tamper responsive which means that if an instrusion is detected the terminal deletes all the keys that reside on the secure cryptoprocessor and locks down. Sometimes if we hit the terminal too hard or it fell, it would lock and we had to reset it and program new keys. There are some attacks like the MITM that is described in wikipedia but are hard to perform on a large scale and easy to get caught. In the case of the tampering of the terminals that wikipedia describes, it is the banks/vendors fault for not having enough security in the terminal manufacture process.

      From my experience EMV terminals with EMV cards are very secure, but as with everything in IT, they are not unbreakable

    39. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by rapiddescent · · Score: 1

      I was a designer of the CAP implementation for a pretty big UK bank. One of the main issues was that we were training users to enter their PIN into any old device. 10 years ago, the PIN would only work on a bank machine on the front wall of a bank so there was a reasonable trust model between the bank consumer and the bank.

      Now we ask them to enter PINs into all sorts of devices, that aren't commonly recognisable and cannot be reasonably assessed by the user as safe: petrol pumps, restaurant handhelds, super market Chip & Pin devices, handheld EMV/CAP units without even thinking about whether the unit is secure.

      The EMV standard (as the parent poster will know) actually has 2 data locations for PIN. That was so that the card could store a local PIN and a remote PIN (i.e. the bank would recognise). That way the user could use a different number whether they were using the bank's machines or not. However, usability won the day and the two items are set with the same data.

      Also, whilst the UK uses a 4 digit PIN - the data on the card can actually store 6 digits.

    40. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by Nadaka · · Score: 1

      I was waiting for someone to notice that. My humor is subtle, occasionally odd and frequently mixed in with other conversation.

    41. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by maevius · · Score: 1

      I don't think it matters that much if the terminal is hacked because if it is, it cannot communicate with the bank host (assuming that the terminal wasn't already tampered when the bank injected the cryptographic keys). Also, even if the user is tricked into giving the PIN, the card cannot be copied so it has to be stolen from the user. In the case of genuine terminals, in order to accept EMV cards they are tested and certified to be secure

      About the PIN, The decision whether the PIN goes online or stays offline has more factors than just the acquiring bank so I have a feeling it would be very confusing to the average cardholder.

      In the end I have to say that the whole process is secure enough and in practice credit card fraud has dropped with EMV. However I don't think it's secure enough (and I think it will never be) to eliminate the receipt signature and to pass the fraud liability to the cardholder

    42. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      actually would be feasible, if you could generate enough bits, to simply store a mass of bits on the card itself to use as a OTP for transaction data.

      Surely, the barriers to building a real cryptographic card are very low and falling even still. My guess is that the banks are simply too large and the management has too many aging MBAs who spend all their time at the golf course "networking" that simply aren't even aware of what their options are. Let alone smart enough to start a project to implement one of them.

      What do you mean? Credit and debit cards with chip (EMV cards) are the standard here in Europe.

    43. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by zippthorne · · Score: 1

      US banks, being run by lawyers and the like, chose contracturally limited liability instead.

      It's actually a general problem over here that goes back quite far, but I only first noticed in the 90s with the early cell phones: They were transmitting, iirc, using ordinary FM (might have even been AM) in the 800 MHz band.

      Rather than using encryption, which was possible and even economically feasible even then, or other scrambling they chose instead to "protect their customers' privacy" by having congress block out frequencies as illegal to listen to, as if eavesdroppers would be stopped by having to buy older model scanners, or modify/designing their own FM 800 MHz receivers.

      In fact, I'm pretty sure they still don't use any kind of encryption, although it is, at least, marginally more difficult to eavesdrop on a CDMA signal than bog-standard FM.

      The problem is intrinsic to our lawyer-heavy society. As they say, "when what you have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail"

      --
      Can you be Even More Awesome?!
    44. Re:Doesnt sound overly hard to by blair1q · · Score: 1

      Wait.. are you nostalgic for the days when cars needed repairs as frequently as they needed fill-ups?

      If you are, there's always motorcycles...

  7. My card got skimmed in Iowa by EmagGeek · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm usually paranoid about such things, but I didn't even notice. Chase was really on the ball with it though. The crooks who stole my card weren't able to charge a damn thing, because their first attempt tripped the alarm bells.

    These skimmer gangs are pervasive, though. They have people working on the inside at retailers everywhere. When mine was skimmed, they tried to use the card to buy several DVD players at a Walgreens nearby within minutes of me buying gas. As it turned out, they had skimmed several dozen cards that morning and had people working in retail stores all around the area trying to buy mostly electronics merchandise with the card numbers. It was a pretty large theft ring...

  8. Get the chip by Lev13than · · Score: 1

    The US really needs to get on board with EMV chip & PIN. Once Canada finishes it's conversion America will be the last major mag-stripe holdout. ZIP-confirmation and other two-factor authentication hacks aren't going to cut it. Chip isn't 100% perfect, but it is 1,000x more secure than an unencrypted mag stripe and has yet to be compromised in the wild. Combined with EMV-compliant contactless payments and PIN-less low value transactions (so that PINs aren't captured en masse), the situation could be greatly improved.

    Also, since the US isn't switching, the rest of the world needs to keep a mag strip on their cards. This leaves a major vulnerability open and will result in continued international skimming but with exploitation migrating to the US.

    --
    When you have nothing left to burn you must set yourself on fire
    1. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, it's a real pain when you go abroad and they all stare at you for not chipping and pinning and lots of cashiers don't know how to swipe any more.

    2. Re:Get the chip by jfengel · · Score: 1

      ZIP-confirmation and other two-factor authentication hacks aren't going to cut it.

      ZIP confirmation has always seemed spectacularly useless. If you've got somebody's card, the ability to get their address seems trivial. The card comes with the name on it (including on the mag stripe), and Google will give you an address much of the time from that.

      Is there some secret advantage here that I'm missing, or is it just the credit card company's lazy way of pretending to add security?

    3. Re:Get the chip by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 5, Insightful

      There is one unpleasant downside to "chip & PIN"...

      While it is certainly more secure than mag stripe, the various issuing institutions, at least in Britain, have tried to use this to argue that theft/skimming losses should now be the fault of the "negligent" customer, rather than their problem.

      I have nothing against better security, I do have a problem with better security being tarted up as evidence that no intrusion could possibly have occurred without the connivance of the customer.

    4. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

      The US will never switch as long as merchants, rather than banks, take most of the losses from credit card fraud. If you want to avoid economic losses, the best thing to do is put the liability for loss on the party that can most easily prevent the loss. In this case, banks have the best ability to prevent credit card fraud. Unfortunately, our current system makes merchants take the vast majority of the losses due to credit card fraud. So why would banks ever fix it if they don't have to pay for the economic losses? Make banks pay for credit card fraud and the issue will be fixed in a matter of months.

    5. Re:Get the chip by Mashiki · · Score: 1

      The chip isn't secure. We're already seeing cases in Canada where chipped cards are being copied.

      --
      Om, nomnomnom...
    6. Re:Get the chip by mbkennel · · Score: 2, Informative

      Banks do take liability for credit card fraud unless they can prove merchants did not obey the security precautions mandated by the acquiring bank's or card association's agreement.

    7. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The chip isn't secure. We're already seeing cases in Canada where chipped cards are being copied.

      Could you please provide a reference?

    8. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      The system relies on the chip to tell the terminal that a valid PIN was used, rather than the terminal+chip+PIN creating a cryptographic message to the bank so the bank can verify that a valid PIN was used. End result: All you need is a fake chip that always tells the terminal a valid PIN was used.

      http://www.zdnet.co.uk/news/security-threats/2010/02/11/chip-and-pin-is-broken-say-researchers-40022674/1/

    9. Re:Get the chip by bk2204 · · Score: 1

      While I agree that ZIP confirmation is not particularly secure, there's actually a better reason that Canada doesn't use it: Canadian postal codes are alphanumeric, and installing a QWERTY keyboard at every point of sale just isn't going to cut it.

    10. Re:Get the chip by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      "Hey boss, marketing and/or legal say we have to have 'two factor authentication' in our product. We could adapt the smartcard chips they use in sims and...."

      "Jesus fuck, man, that sounds expensive! We mail out those cards, sometimes unsolicited and pre-activated to poorly validated addresses, like goddamn candy. If your next scheme involves a per-card hardware cost, you might as well go pack your desk, to save security the trouble..."

      "Well, we could just change the software and add a scary-looking screen that asks for the ZIP code, that's, like, totally a government-granted numeric ID, right?"

      "Good work. Make it so."

    11. Re:Get the chip by insertwackynamehere · · Score: 1

      The advantage is if you drop your card and a crackhead steals it. It's not security.. it's more just a roadblock for very basic theft. Fraud and more complicated stuff isn't actually prevented by it.

    12. Re:Get the chip by Zouden · · Score: 4, Informative

      Not since November 2009. The banks are now required to prove the customer was at fault.

      --
      "A week in the lab saves an hour in the library"
    13. Re:Get the chip by Insightfill · · Score: 4, Interesting

      ...the various issuing institutions, at least in Britain, have tried to use this to argue that theft/skimming losses should now be the fault of the "negligent" customer, rather than their problem.

      Yes, Slashdot covered a similar case a few years ago. "Stolen car!? That's impossible with our current state-of-the-art RFID keys! You must have negligently left your keys where someone could take them; no insurance for you!"

    14. Re:Get the chip by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 1

      Good that the situation was legally rectified(for the moment); but an illustration of the problem.

      They, successfully, used the technological change to pass the buck for a number of years, until outrage and the law eventually caught up with them. Clearly, since the law had to force their hand, their intention was to keep the buck passed forever.

      Given the, er, robust state of American democracy, and its laudable freedom from corruption and corporate influence at all levels, I for one am certain that things would end happily here. It would, in fact, probably turn out even better than the Mortgage Electronic Record System, a paragon of accuracy, efficiency, and usually not sending the sheriff to kick people out of their homes without any documentation that a mortgage actually existed, much less is delinquent....

    15. Re:Get the chip by noc007 · · Score: 1

      I'd probably pay in cash exclusively the day my bank issues me a "Chip & PIN" card here in the US. I've had enough smoke blow up my butt about how awesome something is and I don't have to worry one bit, but the moment things go south, I get run over by a bus. I wouldn't put it past the banks here in the US to pull the same "well you must have given your PIN to someone, so the liability is on you" nonsense.

    16. Re:Get the chip by couchslug · · Score: 1

      "Also, since the US isn't switching, the rest of the world needs to keep a mag strip on their cards."

      No, it doesn't. Credit card numbers can be manually transcribed and called in by telephone.

      --
      "This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
    17. Re:Get the chip by noc007 · · Score: 1

      I really hope you're not serious. Chip & PIN plus the liability on the card holder if there is fraud with a Chip & PIN transaction is just a monumental bad idea. It's not 1000x more secure and it has been compromised. Please do some Googling for news on Chip & PIN fraud in the UK. Beyond the actual negligence ones where the fraudster has the actual card and knows the PIN, there's skimming going on.

      A couple of terminals only need a paperclip to make the connection of the decrypted information and didn't trigger any of the tamper-proof mechanisms nor is it really noticeable:
      http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/02/27/credit_card_reader_security_pants/
      http://www.lightbluetouchpaper.org/2008/02/26/chip-pin-terminals-vulnerable-to-simple-attacks/

      On a more recent note, this year arrests were made in UK of a skimmer gang. Articles can be found on Google:
      http://www.google.com/search?q=chip+pin+gang

    18. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There is one unpleasant downside to "chip & PIN"...

      While it is certainly more secure than mag stripe, the various issuing institutions, at least in Britain, have tried to use this to argue that theft/skimming losses should now be the fault of the "negligent" customer, rather than their problem.

      I have nothing against better security, I do have a problem with better security being tarted up as evidence that no intrusion could possibly have occurred without the connivance of the customer.

      That's American culture for you. American consumers do not want to take on any risk. Thay always want the bank to cover their loss even if it was the result of something stupid they did on their part.
      I'm speaking as an American myself, but I see this difference in attitude between my English relatives
      and my American Friends all the time.

    19. Re:Get the chip by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Why should a bank pay for fraud by the cardholder? Because it is impossible under current circumstances to actually prove the difference between fraud perpetrated by the card holder or someone else.

      A lot of merchants have insurance to cover such losses, so really nobody loses anything at all. Which is why nobody is motivated to fix it at all. Nobody loses and a few ordinary people get some extra spending money by lifting card numbers.

    20. Re:Get the chip by Cwix · · Score: 1

      Im already doing the exclusive cash route, the only issues I have is ordering something online.. but a walmart money card (3 dollar surcharge to load) takes care of that. I wonder how this will affect those types of cards.

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    21. Re:Get the chip by rapiddescent · · Score: 1

      on slashdot, in 2007 I posted this about Shell Chip & PIN garages skimming cards. It's not really new.

    22. Re:Get the chip by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Your example doesn't work, because in that case they were social engineering a chip transaction to get the mag stripe data. The rest of the fraud is done via insecure mag stripe - the chip portion is never compromised. This is a well-known security hole and reinforces the OP's argument that mag stripes need to get taken off chip cards.

    23. Re:Get the chip by daem0n1x · · Score: 1

      Oh, those evil nanny-state abortionist lesbian tree-hugging pot-smoking liberals. How dare they legislate to interfere with The Holy Market? Everybody knows The Markets are perfect!

    24. Re:Get the chip by GWRedDragon · · Score: 1

      A lot of merchants have insurance to cover such losses, so really nobody loses anything at all. Which is why nobody is motivated to fix it at all. Nobody loses and a few ordinary people get some extra spending money by lifting card numbers.

      Insurance does not reduce the cost, it merely makes it predictable. If better theft-prevention measures were put in place, the bank would end up paying lower insurance premiums. There is nothing magic about insurance.

  9. Person who checks the pumps.... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably also ensures that the skimmers are working properly.

    Simples!

  10. What a skimmer actually looks like by kryptKnight · · Score: 4, Informative

    Since none of the articles linked to by the summary felt it was relevant to mention what these skimmers actually look like, here's an article from Consumerist.

    --
    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored. -Aldous Huxley
    1. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Thelasko · · Score: 1

      These skimmers are in the pump. You won't see anything different in the appearance of the pump.

      --
      One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
    2. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by whoever57 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Since none of the articles linked to by the summary felt it was relevant to mention what these skimmers actually look like, here's an article from Consumerist.

      That's an ATM skimmer, which are different to gas pump skimmers. Because the attackers don't have access to the inside of the ATM, everything is done by sticking gizmos on the outside of the ATM. With gas pumps, I don't think there are any signs that a user can see that a skimmer has been installed -- it's all internal to the gas pump.

      --
      The real "Libtards" are the Libertarians!
    3. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 0, Troll

      attackers don't have access to the inside of a gas pump either.

      They are both done by attaching items on the pump, just gas stations can only do credit cards (because there is no viable way to set up a camera to watch your pin).

    4. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Rogerborg · · Score: 5, Informative

      attackers don't have access to the inside of a gas pump either.

      Y'all got some religious prohibition about Reading The Fine Article?

      Unlike ATM skimming devices, which are attached to the exterior of a machine, over the card reader, the Shell skimming device was actually inside the terminal, wired between the card scanner and the computer board.

      The entirety of human knowledge at your fingertips, and you still insist on wearing your ignorance like a badge.

      --
      If you were blocking sigs, you wouldn't have to read this.
    5. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by RollingThunder · · Score: 1

      No, the second article was pretty clear that the devices are being placed in-between the reader and the rest of the pump. It's in-line, recording every signal the card reader sends to the processing system, and prior to the point that it's all encrypted for transmission.

      Unlike ATM skimming devices, which are attached to the exterior of a machine, over the card reader, the Shell skimming device was actually inside the terminal, wired between the card scanner and the computer board.

      This is like the classic keyloggers, plugged in to the PC's keyboard socket, and then the keyboard plugged in to it, except you can't see it since everything's inside the pump.

    6. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Y'all got some religious prohibition about Reading The Fine Article

      No, just usually too busy reading the rest of the articles on the net.

    7. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      The files are in the computer!

    8. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Idiot, exposed.

    9. Re:What a skimmer actually looks like by grommit · · Score: 2, Informative

      While I'm sure the author of that article is well intentioned, they get a few facts wrong. In addition to naming the wrong city, they have a incorrect picture. A correct picture can be found at the local newspaper.

  11. International connection? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm not sure if it is, no sources mention it but skimming ATMs was big in Moscow RUSSIA in beginning of 2000s. ATMs were relative novelty and people would never question the look of it.
    It took a while to realize that US folks are just as vulnerable to this and the party moved here.

  12. You're using it wrong by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Who says the skimmer has to transmit the skimmed numbers as soon as they are skimmed or that physical possession of the device needs to be reattained? The skimmers could store the numbers and respond with them on request. Criminal drives by the area and remotely queries skimmers downloading all of the data. Please ask why anything so easily copied serves as an authentication scheme for something so universally in demand. Fortunately for us consumers the banks eat most fraudulent credit card transactions, but these same negligent authentication procedures cost individuals tons of money for copied social security numbers.

  13. Re:Islam is the shelter of murderers and liars by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Insightful

    The religions are meant to enslave and execute people unless they adhere to the largely illogical creeds. It's time to cleanse the world of these blights.

    FTFY

  14. What we need... by Nadaka · · Score: 1

    What we need to do is make every debit and credit card use something like an RSA Secure ID token and make the user type in the pseudo random synced 6 digit code for every purchase. And then allow only one transaction for a card in that ~1 minute timeframe that the code is valid.

    That would cut down on 99.99% of all opportunity for credit card fraud. You would either need the card/token on hand or have the algorithm and enough instance data to derive the key through brute force means.

    The only downside to this is that recurring credit card charges would no longer work... So there is no downside.

    1. Re:What we need... by Burdell · · Score: 1

      The problem with RSA tokens is that the system doesn't scale. I have two credit cards, an ATM/debit card, several bank website logins, etc. I don't want those accounts tied together for security and privacy, and I certainly don't want to carry around a half-dozen tokens. Also, doesn't RSA claim a patent on the token setup (so they'd be a sole-source and raise costs across the board)?

    2. Re:What we need... by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      if my touchscreen cellphone can't keep synced to my wall clock (+/- 1 minute) I wouldn't bet much on something stuck into a cheap card managing it reliably.

    3. Re:What we need... by Big+Boss · · Score: 2

      Embed the token into the cards. They don't have a significant cost these days, and it would make the cards significantly more secure. Yes, it makes the cards more expensive than a piece of plastic and a magstripe, but really, it's not THAT much. Particularly when amortized over all the cards in circulation.

      If you're going that far, you could also include the PIN entry keypad on the card and use a secure link to make it nearly impossible for an attacker to get your PIN via the capture device.

      And, if designed properly, they won't wear out as fast as the old style ones, and they are more secure, so don't have to expire as often. The real expiration is on the CC company servers anyway, and checked when you try to use the card.

      The really painful part isn't the cards really, it's the readers. And internet transactions, but that can be handled reasonably if you have a display on the card. It can show you a bunch of numbers to type into the computer after you tell it how much you want to allow the merchant to charge you. Generates a time limited code (one use, good for one minute?) that allows the transaction to process.

    4. Re:What we need... by jjhall · · Score: 1

      I already carry an RSA device with me for my PayPal account's online access. It has a serial number on it which links my particular device back to the algorithm and seed to generate the numbers. Why would it not be feasible for me to enter that serial number into my banks' systems so I have a single OTP that works for all of my cards? It would take some massive cooperation between the card companies to do so, but it sure would give them some nice good-will towards their customers.

      And before we head down that path, yes it would be less secure to have a single key to multiple cards, but if I were to get mugged, there is no more effort on the criminal's part to take 4 RSA keys than 1, considering they'd likely be on the same keyring anyway.

      What the banks need to do is force new card systems to allow for a PIN to be entered with all transactions, credit or debit. That pin could be issued in many ways. For example, a manually updated PIN for the less tech savvy. Those users would need to accept a higher limit of responsibility, say $200, should their card/pin be compromised. The next step would be a weekly PIN e-mailed or sent via SMS, and would reduce that limit to $50. And finally, the constantly-rotating RSA token which would carry $0 liability. This would allow those that don't want to be bothered to learn a new system or memorize a changing PIN to carry on as usual, and those of us who are willing to take on a minuscule amount of burden to get rewarded for our part.

      Its all about making it more difficult for the crook. If they get Grandma's card number today, its good until it is detected by her looking at the bank statement, or by the bank sooner if she is lucky. The crook could potentially store the card and not use it for 6 months. A weekly changing pin would reduce that number's usefulness to 1 week, after which point it is no longer valid. Now the crook has to sell or use that card within a few days otherwise it is worthless. A daily updating key (again sending a new key to the holder's phone via SMS every day would be simple and fairly inexpensive) would lessen that window of usefulness to hours. Finally an RSA token updating every minute would make the compromised number likely worthless by the time the numbers were collected, and at worst there would only be time for a few transactions.

      The banks and card networks can point fingers at the merchants and customers all they want, but when I can buy a token for $5 to protect my Worlds of Warcraft account, they have no excuse for not implementing a more secure system from their end.

    5. Re:What we need... by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Why would any of this be needed? It has already been established that credit card fraud happens and is just a fact of life. It doesn't cost the cardholder anything. Most large merchants have insurance coverage for this specifically as well. So it really doesn't cost anyone anything.

      So why would anyone spend any time at all "combatting credit card fraud"? It is relatively harmless way that some low-level crooks get some extra spending money. As an example, a waiter in a restaurant sees 100 credit card numbers a week. If he takes 50 of them and sends them off to some Russian web site he might get $0.50 each for them or about $25. So what? In comparison to many other things that are real problems, this is about as harmless as dealing drugs or prostitution.

      Face it, your credit card is going to get stolen. It isn't going to cost you anything but it will be a minor hassle. The folks that stole it probably won't get much from the credit card which is why they are worth so little.

    6. Re:What we need... by Cwix · · Score: 1

      I actually guess your wall clock is drifitng, especially if its analog I havnt had good luck with those damn things keeping time compared to my computer synced to atomic time. Also its subjective depending on the angle your viewing the clock if its 12:32 or 12:33.

      Most cell clocks are set remotely if I remember right. I live not to far from a time zone line and within a few min of crossing it my phone will change timezones (no GPS).

      --
      You are entitled to your own opinions, not your own facts.
    7. Re:What we need... by HungryHobo · · Score: 1

      no, it's definitly my phone. it drifts by about 5 minutes a month vs my PC clock and the other clocks in the house.
      slightly irritating.

      but anyway.
      I'd imagine that if my phone can't get it right a 50 cent card won't be able to.

    8. Re:What we need... by jjhall · · Score: 1

      You honestly believe it doesn't cost you anything for credit card fraud? Somebody somewhere directly pays it, and that somebody is usually the merchant that accepted the bad card. There may have been no way for them to know it was a bad card when they took it, but they still get the charge-back. Now they're out the merchandise they sold, and they no longer have the money for the merchandise. The stores of course don't just take that fraud out of their profit with a smile on their face. They base their retail prices based on a certain percentage of shoplifting, credit card fraud, etc. When those expenses go up, so do the prices they charge for their wares. You and I wind up paying for that fraud a little at a time with each and every purchase.

      Your math is seriously flawed in how much damage is done. Sure that waiter may make $25, but that is a drop in the bucket. The fraudsters are going to hit each of those 50 cards for hundreds of dollars in charges, or more if they can get away with it before the card is shut down. If each one averages $250, that is $12,500 in fraudulent charges for that single waiter's take. Multiply that by the number of waiters, gas station attendants, skimmers, and every other source of compromised card numbers and you have some seriously large amounts. A far stretch from the $25 "so what" amount!

      Face it, I don't want my card to get stolen. It may be a minor hassle, but I already have enough "minor hassles" to deal with and I don't need any more. I don't want to have to go back through and give a new card number to all of the companies that I have automatic payments set up. I don't want to have to fill out paperwork, convince my bank to give me my money back while they investigate (I don't use credit cards, only debit attached to my checking account), and I don't want to pay more at the store each and every time I make a purchase.

      To me, the minor inconvenience I would endure to implement a better security system pales in comparison to the "minor hassle" I'd have to deal with now. As they say, "An ounce of prevention..."

  15. Security through obscurity, yet again by ka9dgx · · Score: 1

    If the system was designed in such a way as to allow the generation of 1 time keys, instead of an embedded 16 digit number, this wouldn't be a problem. This could have been fixed 10 or maybe even 20 years ago... but we have the lowest possible cost system in place, and fraud is just a cost of business instead of a crime.

    1. Re:Security through obscurity, yet again by cdrguru · · Score: 1

      Hey, remember that there are plenty of people that rely on credit cards to provide some extra income. Credit card fraud is pretty much a non-prosecuted crime in the US. Why not let the folks that can make what money they can?

  16. insight from the banking industry by flaming+error · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Interesting that this "insight from the banking industry" doesn't seem to indicate the banks have any responsibility for the problem.

    There once was a time that people took their money to the bank for safekeeping. I think banks have partly weaseled themselves out of the security side of the business, and what used to be called "bank robbery" they now call "identity theft." Which works ok for the bank, seeing how it's the customer who lost the money and it must have been the customer's fault, or the gas station's, or the POS equipment vendor's.

    The bank, which should act like a watchdog, portrays itself as something of an innocent bystander.

    1. Re:insight from the banking industry by mandelbr0t · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, an individual card issuer does not have any responsibility, nor should they. It is the responsibility of the financial network to mandate minimum security requirements of each card issuer, and all terminals under their control. (e.g. Interac, Cirrus, Visa). It is only the card issuer's responsibility to adhere to the policy set out by their network.

      --
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    2. Re:insight from the banking industry by fuzzyfuzzyfungus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Sinclair said: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

      When dealing with PR flacks, their salary depends on you not understanding it, which is likely even worse...

    3. Re:insight from the banking industry by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Banks should be liable for a third party business, that fails to implement decent physical security controls on gas pumps? Seems a bit over stretched there. I agree with your general sentiment, but not in this situation. I don't see how a bank can be reasonably expected to secure gas station pumps and anywhere else a consumer might stick a card.

  17. efficiency issue by peter303 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    (1) Takes extra time to visit a clerk and pay cash.
    (2) Amount not recorded automatically. Have to mess around with receipts. During high price periods my gas usage approaches 5% of my budget and should be tracked.
    (3) Requires carrying around more cash, especially in periods when prices are high.

  18. harder credit/emoney is less credit & bank pro by peter303 · · Score: 1

    Credit/debit companies make money on volume. They balance a certain level of fraud against the ease of obtaining credit. Thats why there is pin-less debit and signature-less credit below certain threshholds.

  19. You're giving the crooks too much credit by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    pun not intended. Seriously, a lot of crooks are stopped cold by simple measures, and it's a cheap solution.

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  20. How do they get into the gas pump? by rsilvergun · · Score: 1

    The article mentioned shim attacks, which I took to mean a mini-reader stuck into the real reader. Are they comming in pretending to be maintenance and getting to crack open the pump that way?

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    1. Re:How do they get into the gas pump? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 1

      You just put it on in front.

  21. ATMs by Y-Crate · · Score: 2, Interesting

    After several years of being told by banks to watch out for large plastic attachments to ATM card slots, I've noticed that an increasing number of bank-owned ATMs now have them as a part of their design. The simple, flush-mounted card slot on a grey plastic / metal bezel is now giving way to a protruding translucent green plastic bulge on grey plastic / metal bezel.

    Which makes less than zero sense.

    They look fake as can be, especially when paired with a slightly older ATM with the more sensible slot.

    Now, one might argue that the crazy card slots are a great theft deterrent because they preclude the attachment of a skimmer, but they also make it impossible for the machine to snap up a stolen card, nor do they really look legitimate enough to give the user peace of mind.

    1. Re:ATMs by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      snap up a stolen card? How about getting jammed when my card was in the reader, or snapping up a card when one of my older relatives took too long to do something.

      No thanks to automated readers like that.

  22. It's usually the same key by Megane · · Score: 4, Informative

    I used to write code that talked to gas pumps, and I can tell you that most pumps take the same key for the printer door, a different same key for the terminal (Gilbarco CRIND/Wayne CAT) door, and I think another same key for the pump control door. That's the same keys for the entire model run of a pump, and maybe for more than one model, unless maybe a big oil chain installs a different same key. Even then, they're those round locks like the ones that some laptop cables use that can be picked with a part from a Bic pen. (Presumably they're better made than the laptop cable locks.)

    The card data is sent up to the station's control computer directly, usually both track 1 and track 2 data. I don't think it would be hard to insert a skimmer behind the door, whether a second mag reader head, or just splice the wires from the card reader. Or even rig the station control computer if you have access to that. (For that matter, all the card numbers may end up in a log file on that computer.)

    There's not much danger of a pin pad skimmer, however, because in the US, PINs are protected by each pinpad having a master key injected into RAM before shipping to the site. They are potted in epoxy and have a memory kill switch if you attempt to open them. This works differently from the European system, which is why the US hasn't had to go to "chip and pin". The PIN is encrypted in the pad, the pinpad's serial number is attached, and the result is only decrypted by the card clearing house computers, which have a list of all the decryption keys. Even if the guy who ran the station was doing the skimming, debit PINs couldn't be skimmed and still work properly. But that's just debit. Credit cards don't have a PIN.

    So unlike ATM skimmers, they could definitely hide the skimmer behind the door, but they would still need a camera of some sort to capture the PINs. Fortunately most gas pump terminals have a relatively flat front, so they can't just hide the camera on a different part of the panel.

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    1. Re:It's usually the same key by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No,

      For the pin they simply install a second mechanical pin pad directly behind the original pin pad so a press on the numbers is registered on both the original and the sniffer pad. At least that is what it looked like when I looked at the pictures the previous time this came up. The outside looks the same but there are two sets of contacts stacked inside the box.

    2. Re:It's usually the same key by Malc · · Score: 1

      There's not much danger of a pin pad skimmer, however, because in the US, PINs are protected by each pinpad having a master key injected into RAM before shipping to the site. They are potted in epoxy and have a memory kill switch if you attempt to open them. This works differently from the European system, which is why the US hasn't had to go to "chip and pin".

      I find this a bit confusing. Are you comparing using debit cards + PIN to the chip+pin system in Europe/the rest of the world? Which is comparing debit to credit cards. Or are you saying that because there is this debit card infrastructure in place that there is resistance to adding the chip+pin for credit cards? Or something else?

    3. Re:It's usually the same key by Elbowgeek · · Score: 1

      This brings up an idea that may well help mitigate ATM skimming at the very least, and that is to redesign ATM machines such that they conform to a very particular design that is very distinctive and is easily recognizable to the consumer. Once the customer becomes used to the design, any anomaly in the appearance would give the consumer pause before their transaction.

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    4. Re:It's usually the same key by Megane · · Score: 1

      I think you missed the part about the pinpad being "potted in epoxy". That includes the back of the keypad being the bottom of the potting. You're not going to be able to identify the keys being pressed through an inch thick block of epoxy.

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  23. Pump swipe = no store visit by Mandrel · · Score: 1

    Around here it's almost all post-pay the attendant, because they want you to buy stuff in their store. Few pumps have card swipes, and only in selected poor or rough areas do they require pre-payment, sometimes only when the price has spiked.

  24. Chip & PIN by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Why can't credit card companies implement the chip & pin technology that is the standard elsewhere in the world. Skimming would no longer present the threat it does today.

  25. Mod parent up by spazdor · · Score: 1

    A+ hilarity.

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    1. Re:Mod parent up by longhairedgnome · · Score: 1

      whoops! meant to mod funny but set to troll instead! :D

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  26. Re: Debit vs. Credit Card by colinnwn · · Score: 1

    Since almost all ATM cards, in the US at least, now carry a Visa/MC logo that can be used as either debit with pin or credit, does it even matter whether they are capturing the pin number? You could use your debit card on a pin transaction at the pump, and the skimmer could capture the mag swipe, then use that card data on the credit card network without the pin, right?

    It annoys me that banks send debit cards by default, and will almost never honor your previous choice. So on every regular card replacement you have to cut it up and call and request an ATM only card. I did this for a while, but finally gave up. Now I never put my debit card in anything but an ATM machine, and in the signature panel I write "DO NOT ACCEPT AS VISA". Not perfect security, but better than nothing. I wish banks were required to maintain your preference with ATM vs. debit card.

  27. Actual picture of one of these skimmers by esme · · Score: 4, Informative

    The local paper (Gainesville Sun) had a picture of the skimmer on the first day it was found:

    http://www.gainesville.com/article/20100707/ARTICLES/100709681

    Basically it looks like a thin bundle of electrical tape attached to the wire between the magstripe reader and the circuit board inside the gas pump -- completely hidden inside the pump cabinet unlike ATM skimmers.

    -Esme

  28. Who's making this gear? by Securityemo · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Where does this stuff come from? I've seen gear like this on sale on Russian underground sites, together with custom trojans etc..., but if it comes from inside the states couldn't you just nab the problem at the source?

    --
    Emotions! In your brain!
    1. Re:Who's making this gear? by Civil_Disobedient · · Score: 1

      Mag Stripe readers are, and have been, dime-a-dozen for decades. Literally, decades. I remember reading back in the day of BBSs they had instructions on D.I.Y. magstripe encoding, IIRC using the head from a cassette tape recorder. The hard part was making sure the speed of the card passing over the head was consistent.

      Anyway, point is the tech is so common and the knowledge so well-known that you can't do anything about it at this point.

  29. miniscule Man in the Middle attack by Browzer · · Score: 4, Informative

    A link http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/newest-attack-your-credit-card-atm-shims?t51hb&hpg1=mp in the original story, entitled "Newest Attack on your Credit Card: ATM Shims" has some interesting information:

    "The shim needs to be extremely thin and flexible. In fact it must be less than 0.1mm"

    "The shim is inserted using a "carrier card" that holds the shim, inserts it into the card slot and locks it into place on the internal reader contacts."

    "Once inserted, the shim is not visible from the outside of the machine. The shim then performs a man-in-the-middle attack between an inserted credit card and the circuit board of the ATM machine."

    "flexible shims are recently being mass produced and widely used in certain parts of Europe"

    "Diebold released five new anit-skimming protection levels for its ATM devices june 1st 2010...Unfortunately, none of these helps with the shim skimming attack. That problem has yet to be solved mechanically yet."

  30. Virtual # writer by hedley · · Score: 3, Insightful

    How about a way to magstripe the virtual # you get from Citi or equiv. Basically, you program the card before use at the station with a fresh virtual#. So, skim away! I couldn't care less if they skimmed a virtual#.

    Or have a $75 limit on the card and only use it for gas.

    1. Re:Virtual # writer by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The idea of the $75 limit is great for you guys in the USA. I live in the UK and it costs me £120 - or about $170 to fill my car. I think I need a higher limit! But we have chip and pin which should help. However, all filling stations have CCTV focussed on the till area so numbers are frequently abused.

    2. Re:Virtual # writer by GWRedDragon · · Score: 1

      That is a great idea, because it would both be effective and also relatively cheap. The issue would really be the complexity of the process for setting a new number.

      Instead, how about just letting customers order 'add on' cards with a lower limit, that deducts from the main card? Making and sending out cards is insanely cheap compared to distributing card-writing devices.

  31. Re: Debit vs. Credit Card by Vegeta99 · · Score: 1

    Does anyone EVER check that signature panel? Mine has my signature on it, but I usually draw a smiley face when asked to sign on a digitizer. Only ONCE did anyone ask to see it.

  32. Two Simple Rules by cdrguru · · Score: 1, Insightful

    1. Never, ever use a debit card for anything. It isn't worth it.

    2. Your credit card number will be stolen. Accept it as a fact of life. It doesn't cost you anything so stop worrying.

    That's it.

    1. Re:Two Simple Rules by hieronymus · · Score: 1

      Bravo. Credit card fraud is not the same as identity theft. If your credit card gets skimmed, you are not going to be liable for the fraudulent charges. The only "cost" to you is going to be having to call the card company and maybe having to wait a couple days for a new card. The card issuers (issuing banks) are the people who bear the most cost for fraud and theoretically the group which should be most concerned.

  33. Bigger Problem then You Think by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    While the original article is about Florida, the epicenter of credit card skimming has been California and more specifically Southern California. BTW, I would advice you NOT to use a debit card at the pump anywhere in California. Stay with credit cards as your fraud liability and headache with credit cards is much less. Some brands have done a better job at protecting themselves then others, but rather be safe then sorry.

    Normal Criminal Card Hierarchy of Use
    1. Debit Cards (people see the $ leave fast so fraud gets caught faster)
    2. Credit Cards (Good Lines and Can Be Used Anywhere)
    3. Commercial Fleet Cards (Higher lines and its tougher for companies to distinguish fraud behavior unless its blatant, downside no universal acceptance)
    4. Branded Gas Cards (Lowest Lines and only used at stations)

    Pump locks are common key for many stations and you can buy the key off Ebay (which the criminals already do). In addition, once into the pump it takes less then a minute and sometimes less then 30 secs to connect a skimmer. If Bluetooth is in place, they never have to get out of the car. Unfortunately Zip Code and PIN prompts are not effective deterrents here because the transmission from the pump to inside the C-Store is generally unencrypted. So if you punch in your PIN not only does the skimmer have your card but now your PIN. In addition the criminals can be methodical. There was a recent article that a Russian criminal gang placed a store manager who worked a year at the location before starting to rip off cards. If a gang has that kind of patience its tough for the authorities.

    There are a few basic things convenience store operators can do to protect pumps that are relatively cheap, but their is no impetus to do so. Because A. the customer who gets their card skimmed doesn't where it happened B. the Major may or may not care because they already have contracts in place with networks and they probably do not eat the fraud C. each credit card company gets hit, but unless they decide to turn off pump credit access...the credit card company is powerless. D. No one has rights to inspect and cite the owners if their pumps are not up to par.

    The problem lies in the value chain
    1. Credit Card companies get hit with the fraud, but can only deal with it after the fact
    2. Oil Majors, who own no or very few stations, want to keep their store owners happy so are much less likely to press the issue. Some majors are vigilant about fraud and keep a watchful eye and some could care less .
    3. Most convenience store owners have little to no inclination to step in and protect pumps because the fraud doesn't hit them unless the credit card company identifies the common point of purchase and takes action (typically sending all customers inside - which will get the attention of a store owner fast)

    Store Owners can do a few things to protect consumers from this fraud
    1. Are there video cameras on the pumps? Stupid, but effective.
    2. Is staff checking pump integrity on a regular basis? Walking by, looking for suspicious activity, etc.
    3. Is there security tape over the pump lock? Security tape will change to a "VOID" and have serial numbers on it.
    4. Have they changed the pump locks from common key that the pump ships?

    None of this has to be expensive. Effective security costs less then a couple of hundred dollars on average, maybe less. Unfortunately, most owners are rather cheap (I get that its a low margin business, but still) and unless they get hit by the CC company who stop authorizing - they do not care. However, at that point its too little too late. The compromise has occurred - the customer goes through hell, the CC company eats the fraud, and the criminal walks off with either cash, store bought items, or free fuel.

  34. Bluetooth extended distance by woboyle · · Score: 1

    Bluetooth devices can be up to 350 ft or so if they are class 1 extended range devices. Normal enhanced bluetooth has about a 50 ft range. My headset works all over my house with the computer down in the basement. With extended range capabilities, it can easily reach next door. So, the perps of these crimes could be across and down the street and still skim the card data.

    --
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  35. Weaseling? by Dr.+Zed · · Score: 1

    Seriously... if Alice alters Bob's machine to steal money from Trent, you want the bank to be on the hook?

    The problem with that is the bank isn't in a position to oversee any of this transaction. You can easily hook Alice for the crime. You can argue fault for Bob (if physical security of the machines is lax), as he needs to keep his machines secure. Trent should only be 'on the hook' for pursuing legal action. But the bank.... what did they do wrong? Process a transaction from Trent? How do you secure that while actually letting Trent buy his gas?

    1. Re:Weaseling? by flaming+error · · Score: 1

      > the bank isn't in a position to oversee any of this transaction.
      Huh? The bank is the one holding the money.

      > How do you secure [a transaction] while actually letting Trent buy his gas?
      How do you secure a building while actually letting authorized personnel pass through?

      Your question is interesting, but it's the bank's job to figure out. Or it would be if they were in the safeguarding-money business.

      Think about your bank's "security" for a moment. "Authentication" consists of providing publicly available information like your zip code, or SSN, or mother's maiden name. When they really try hard you have to authenticate yourself with a four digit numeric PIN. Bank transaction security hasn't evolved one bit (even in the crypto sense) since the 1970's. If anything it's gotten more lax.

      But to answer your question, one pretty good solution currently available is RSA dongles.

  36. Re: Debit vs. Credit Card by Malc · · Score: 1

    In N. America: no. Elsewhere: yes. Elsewhere always checked, even before chip+pin made signatures a novelty and something to be distrusted further.

  37. BT within 3m of a pump? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    With BT able to get 50 meters, more if it is outside, where the average pump is, the collector could be in a car across the road, or anywhere.

  38. Range by ledow · · Score: 1

    To all those people questioning range, don't forget that Bluetooth operates in 2.4GHz - roughly the same frequency as wireless, and thus is a prime candidate for Pringle "cantenna's" or just plugging in any old 2.4GHz directional antenna. You can get Wifi going dozens if not hundreds of kilometres with some simple antennas, so Bluetooth and a directional antenna, even homebrew, is likely to provide 100's of metres of safe distance between you and a device if you're hacking hardware on these scales anyway.

  39. Simple Credit Card Security Approach by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Using a typical keyfob used for computer logins would prevent skimmers from getting anything but the card number. Many companies use SecurID -- you enter your user ID (credit card in this instance) and then a unique one-time password is used (typically a pin number plus some number of digits from the SecurID fob). For credit cards, a fob would only need to generate 3 to 4 digits. The fob could also be configured as a credit-card sized device. One such device can be used with any number of credit cards.

  40. Wow that is a stupid question by drinkypoo · · Score: 1

    Does this mean an accomplice has to hang around within 3m of the pump?

    What a stunningly stupid question. Was it an attempt to be funny? It failed. Even if bluetooth didn't have vastly more range than 3 meters, there is bluesniper which you too can build.

    --
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  41. Cash by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    Just one more reason why I use CASH whenever possible. No account numbers to steal, few privacy issues (so far), and it has a hard time vanashing without your knowledge.

  42. Simply? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I'm wondering if anyone reading this has ever tried to get a fraudulent charge removed from their account? I know the credit card companies all say the cardholder is not responsible for fraudulent charges but I wonder if it is simple to get them removed, or is it like pulling teeth.

  43. Yes, but you can find them easily by name_already_taken · · Score: 1

    There's no need to pick the gas pump lock. Somewhere I have a key from a Pitney-Bowes postage meter. It's a "high security" double edged key with each edge having a different profile. One day I noticed that the gas pump I was filling my car from had a similar looking lock. Turns out that key opens almost any gas pump.

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  44. Pictures????? by __aavqan3009 · · Score: 1

    God forbid...don`t educate anyone.