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Motorola Says eFuse Doesn't Permanently Brick Phones
radicalpi writes "Motorola has responded to claims that eFuse is designed to brick your device if you attempt to mod it or install unauthorized bootloaders. Yes, the device will still not operate with unauthorized software, but it will only go into recovery mode until you reinstall the authorized software. According to Motorola: 'If a device attempts to boot with unapproved software, it will go into recovery mode, and can re-boot once approved software is re-installed.'"
There, fixed that for you. Bricked is permanent. Non-permanent "bricking" isn't bricking at all. If you can revive it, it was never bricked in the first place.
QUICK push out a update to update the software that will do this. "If a device attempts to boot with unapproved software, it will go into recovery mode, and can re-boot once approved software is re-installed"
but I will decide what software is "authorized" to run on my phone!
No sale for you.
Does this make it any better? It's still taking a great deal of power away from the user.
I wonder if this was brought on by the likes of Cyanogen bringing Froyo to the G1 (Hence extending it's life span greatly)?
...and yet, nobody has ended up properly explaining what eFuse is. In fact, from reading this and other articles, some low-level fuse, like fuses in microcontrollers, doesn't seem to apply to the functionality they describe. This sounds much more complex and much higher-level...so what exactly is everyone going on about? Wikipedia says "In computing, eFUSE is a technology invented by IBM which allows for the dynamic real-time reprogramming of computer chips. Speaking abstractly, computer logic is generally 'etched' or 'hard-coded' onto a chip and cannot be changed after the chip has finished being manufactured. By utilizing an eFUSE (or more realistically, a number of individual eFUSEs), a chip manufacturer can allow for the circuits on a chip to change while it is in operation. The primary application of this technology is to provide in-chip performance tuning. If certain sub-systems fail, or are taking too long to respond, or are consuming too much power, the chip can instantly change its behavior by 'blowing' an eFUSE." What does that have to do with authorized software? Why would they use such a system rather than the other systems that have been used in the past? How is this different than some sort of half-FPGA ASIC? Anyways...
There, fixed that for you. Bricked is permanent. Non-permanent "bricking" isn't bricking at all. If you can revive it, it was never bricked in the first place.
It all depends on how easy it is to reinstall the software. MOST "bricked" devices could be recovered at a service center with specialised equipment for a fee (that may not make it a cost effective proposition). If an end user can make the phone unusable but can't reverse the situation using the same equipment (or at least readily available affordable - as in a few bucks - equipment) I would still call it bricked even if it can be revived.
I have no idea if in this safe mode it's easy to install the authorised software. If it is easy I wouldn't call that bricked either. I'd just call it nasty DRM that I'll steer well clear of.
These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
Not bricking, just taking another step along the road to becoming an iPhone. Custom OS? We'll have none of that, thank you very much. Next up is stricter restrictions on what applications can run (enforced by your 'authorized-only' OS).
offer a free opt-out for those willing to take the risk. I'm not sure if the capability is even there, but if the owner is willing to sign a waiver releasing Motorola from any damages in the event that anything goes wrong (a la Malware), Motorola should do it.
Viable Slashdot alternatives: https://pipedot.org/ and http://soylentnews.org/
I am waiting for hackers to identify the offending chip(s) then have them incapacitated. Afterwards, we can mod the beast.
Or is it that I just do not understand the issues here? Does my suggestion even make sense?
...it's about as locked as the iPhone then, and still requires jailbreaking?
Go go open sou....waitaminnit...
Not bricking, just taking another step along the road to becoming an iPhone. Custom OS? We'll have none of that, thank you very much. Next up is stricter restrictions on what applications can run (enforced by your 'authorized-only' OS).
Well on its way to becoming a reality with AT&T blocking side-loading apps. If it's not in the Market, too bad.
Today is red jello day - all workers must eat all of their red jello. Failure to comply will result in five demerits.
Thank you!
Sunwalker Dezco for Warchief in 2016
This sounds exactly like it is on the CLIQ. In the past, if you were not careful with modding, you will end up with the phone bootlooping until you put the phone in USB recovery mode, and flash a signed SHX file. Now, you can most likely use nandroid and pull back to the last backup.
This bit people big time when a new radio ROM was available for upgrading, and people upgraded to it with a rooted/custom ROM, one had to reflash (losing root). Of course new ROM fixed the RAMDLD exploit that was used to root the phone in the first place.
Luckily, on the CLIQ, there was a ROM that had ro.secure set to 0 that was signed by a vendor. This allowed for a recovery image to be flashed, and new ROMS pushed to the phone. Had this not been the case, I'm sure it would have been an uphill battle to get the phone re-rooted, and likely people would have moved on to other platforms and not bothered.
All and all, this isn't great news, but it is better than having devices be rendered unusable until sent to a Motorola repair depot.
Haven't they... like sucked since 1999?
For justice, we must go to Don Corleone
No. Bricked is forever, as defined by perception and ability -- both of which are subject to change.
A few years ago, I really fucked up a WRT54G when playing with software. I was going to throw it away, when I stumbled across a process for programming it using its JTAG interface and a parallel port. (Which worked fine.)
So was it a brick? The answer is simple, but flexible: It was a brick until I learned that it was possible for me to recover it, at which point it ceased to be a brick.
And now that I know how to deal with these issues, I can't successfully brick a WRT54G in the same fashion.
A dozen years ago, I fucked up a PC by flashing the wrong BIOS. Was it a brick? Again, it's a matter of perspective. In this particular case it was not a brick, though most folks would have reasonably considered it to be completely and totally bricked. Why was it not bricked for me? Because I already knew how to fix it: Enable shadow ROM on another computer, and plug the improperly-flashed BIOS into it hot. Then, just re-flash with the correct image, put the hardware back where it was, and move on with life.
Kid-proof tablet..
Wouldn't this be asking for a DDoS? Couldn't one purposely put an app up that went about and blew every single one of these "eFuses", thus forcing a reset of the phone? Sounds like a easy path to take out phones and play some havoc. Not to mention if somehow an app accidentally tripped one too many of these. Hell I could see a scam going that nuked phones this way, then offered to "repair" them, for some extortionate fee.
If this was the iPhone they were talking about, there would be front page stories in all the major newspapers and websites saying what a crappy company Apple is for locking down their device. Kind of funny when the shoe's on the other foot, isn't it? As Jobs pointed out today, the iPhone 4 has only been out 22 days and the news media was having a conniption making the antenna issue "major news." (hint: "Major news" is the war in Afghanistan and the Gulf of Mexico mess). In fact, since the whole point of Android was to be open-source (as opposed to Apple's "Death grip" on developers), it's kind of funny that Motorola feels also that there are limits to what you should be able to do with your phone.
Nitewing '98
Everything works...in theory.
Just because you have discovered an unbricking technique does NOT invalidate the fact that it WAS in fact bricked.
Bricking is not defined as forever.
Bricking means the device is hosed and cannot be recovered without breaking in and modifying the hardware.
Breaking into the JTAG interface of a consumer device and reprogramming PROM are definitely hardware modification techniques that are non-trivial.
This is another term that has entered the popular lexicon and got warped. If a device is bricked, _no one_ can reactivate it - it is dead. If someone can revive the device for a fee, it's not bricked.... it's just something you probably should not have bought in the first place. Bricked means bricked - and I've had a few devices go that way on me because of mistakes.
Riddle me this:
Why are PSPs considered "bricked" when you can get a pandora's battery and "unbrick" them. Perspective has nothing to do with it, if the system is shut down and a user cannot reset it to defaults without the aid of specialist "tools", it's bricked.
A USB cable is a specialist tool when it comes to mobiles, most users have never, and probably will never, connected their phone to their computer. This concept is alien to most users.
You talk about perception, get off the high horse and look at things from a user perspective. Bricked is bricked, and there's no interpretation to it.
Bricked is permanent.
Well then by your definition it's pretty much impossible to "brick" a device without otherwise destroying it, as it's always possible to "unbrick" it by replacing code (whether via JTAG, secret button presses or other means) or swapping components.
Back in the real world, it's a relative term. If you can't unbrick your device then as far as you are concerned it's bricked, even if the manufacturer or someone with a bit more brains could actually fix it for you.
No approved software -> one kind of brick.
Approved software -> another kind of brick.
Any questions?
No you're saying nothing is ever bricked because by improving your ability or paying someone else you can always get it fixed. This is wrong.
In truth the 'normal' way of flashing your WRT54G can still brick the router because you can't fix the problem using the same technique that you got into trouble in the first place. OTOH JTAG flashing of the router does indeed seem to be unable to brick the device because you can always fix the problem.
That just leaves where you draw the line. IMO the requirements for doing a WRT54G JTAG are too far, ie soldering the board and guessing (parts of) the protocol. But (for example) an edge connector with available documentation would be okay. So you see I put the line at about "Could a professional outsider reasonably fix it without being required to damage or permanently change anything?".
Do people have any idea what they are talking about ? eFuse is nothing more than electronic fuses, a code which is programmed into a chip electronically, call it blown into the device. This code is probably an encryption key. What Motorola has done is implementing secure boot on their devices. This means that the phone can only run firmware encrypted and signed code. Just like for example is done in gaming consoles. If they do it well, it's very hard to hack. Unless you know the keys.
Breaking in? It's not like it took prybars and hammers to open the thing. A WRT54G opens with a quick tug using no tools other than a pair of reasonably-strong hands.
Modifying the hardware? A little. But the JTAG header was right there on the board, IIRC it was even labeled. All I had to do was solder some pins to it to be able to plug a cable into it. And I could have done it without even going that far: after all, I just needed electrical continuity, and nowhere is it written that this must involve physical modification. (Soldering is easier for one individual device, but if I had a lot of them to fix I'd have come up with something less invasive.)
Breaking into the JTAG interface? To reprogram the PROM? You've gone off of the deep end. JTAG is a bog-standard and rather simple interface for dealing with flash at a low level. And PROMs aren't reprogrammable.
Another reason why the device was not bricked was that it was not physically damaged: No eFuse was blown, no parts had turned to smoke, and never was it in any particular danger. It just had a bad firmware load. In other words, it was experiencing a software problem. So I loaded new software that worked, once I learned how.
*shrug*
In other news, some layfolk also think that a PC with a crapfested install of Windows is bricked beyond help. This opinion is, of course, wrong. But it is based on their perspective and ability.
To use a car analogy: I have a dead GM 4L30E automatic transmission out back which died suddenly in my BMW. I fixed the car by replacing the transmission, which I knew how to do, so at no time was the whole car a brick. Now: Could the 4L30E be fixed? I guess so, but I don't know how to do that, so the tranny itself is still bricked. To someone else with different perspective and ability, it might be a quick fix, but that someone ain't me. If the day comes that I gain the ability to understand and fix automatic transmissions, or I give it to someone else who already understands these things, then it may cease being a brick.
Kid-proof tablet..
And now I'm regaining more sanity here (thanks again)... we already had a word for what I did: I broke the hell out of it. It needs to be repaired. Bricked is a term describing breakage done entirely by software, which requires special tools (hardware, or perhaps special signed binaries), or even hardware repair, to remedy. The point is that you screwed it up beyond something you as an average user can remedy, merely by doing things in software, or maybe hooking the wrong adaptor to it, without forcing anything. THAT is a useful concept, because usually such simple things don't render a device unusable to yourself. Ahhhh, now the word has regained a useful meaning for me again.
A "bricked" PSP that can be recovered using a Pandora battery is not bricked at all. It is far more useful than a brick. All it takes is a widget to tell the device to boot from whatever it is that is in the card slot instead of its internal flash. This widget happens to be known as a Pandora battery, and the only thing that is special about it is that its serial number consists of zeroes.
Bricks don't do any of that stuff: I have a pile of them out back, and none of them possess these abilities. A genuinely bricked PSP would resemble a brick, not an electronic device that can easily be brought back to usefulness.
Regarding "user perspective," I have bricked a lot of things (both electronic and mechanical) that I was simply unable to fix myself while being unwilling or unable to pay someone else to do it.
Nonetheless, I am a PSP user. And I am a WRT54G user. And a Droid user. I use them all in ways other than what the instructions say that I should be able to, but that doesn't make me less of a user -- I'm just a user with a different perspective than most have.
Kid-proof tablet..
There, fixed that for you. Bricked is permanent. Non-permanent "bricking" isn't bricking at all. If you can revive it, it was never bricked in the first place.
They newer said that you can revive it.
echo '[q]sa[ln0=aln80~Psnlbx]16isb572CCB9AE9DB03273snlbxq' |dc
As long as a device or any part of a device is sold with a feature that says "you are prohibited from doing what you want with something you paid disgusting amounts of money for" Then something is wrong.
When you buy something, it should be yours to do whatever the fuck you want with it. There is no reason that someone else has any right to tell you what you are allowed to do with your possessions. Hell, if someone came into my house and forced me to stop using super glue to attach everything to everything else, I would have him fucking arrested for trespassing. If they are going to tell you what to do with your devices, then they should replace the word 'buy' with the word 'use until we decide otherwise, within the bounds of what we think is ok' I bet people wouldn't pay such shit-tons of money for every little gizmo if it said that instead.
Where is the mod rating for "scary"? Also,
It all depends on how easy it is to reinstall the software.
No, it doesn't. Brick means it's gone. No fixy. Buy another, thanks for playing. If the software can be reinstalled, even with great difficulty, you don't say "bricked."
Comment removed based on user account deletion
My car is totalled because it needs a new air filter, which requires me to break into and modify the hardware by opening the hood and unscrewing a wingnut.
Funny... cause the USB cable is in the box the phone came with.
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
In addition to marketoids demanding that you use Blur, there's a bigger problem. Once the device is marked as End of Life (and original Droid already is, right? Been less than a year) I kinda doubt that Motorola will dedicate any resources to bolding Blur onto newer revisions of Android. :) )
Which means users will be stuck in a certain version. Even though new ones could theoretically be used, as hardware is powerful enough (or it could be stripped down by geniuses from XDA Dev
At least they need to disable eFuse on "no longer supported" devices. Otherwise, just another example of planned obsolescence (and even worse than iPhone).
Hyperom.com
i am buying a DEVICE from you. that is a mobile phone. i am not buying a device AND a software. i dont care about your reasons, your justifications, your logic, this that and shit. if you force me to anything after BUYING a device, i will fuck it and do what i want. if there is no possibility of doing that, i wont buy your product, and you can gleefully shove it up your ass.
how do you like this as the opinion of customers ? distasteful isnt it ? well, you asked for it.
Read radical news here
Funny... cause the USB cable is in the box the phone came with.
I was just about to post this. For my LG phone the wall charger is just an adapter for the USB cable. Specialist tool indeed.
Thanks for the insight! There is a lot of helpful information within those links.Nice site! Very professional and full of information. http://www.baiyokefactory.com/
I learned my lesson about Motorola back when I bought a Motorola A780 (Linux smartphone). I was hoping that it would be a platform like what Android is now. Boy was I wrong. They handcuffed developers at every turn. The A780 had a built-in GPS, but the API was never released to the public. OS updates were few and far in between. It had an ABYSMAL user interface. I honestly don't know how they let this POS out the door.
I use InDesign because I refuse to give Quark any money. I'll buy an HTC because I refuse to give Motorola any money.
Frankly, I'd be interested in knowing how they rooted the phone and then changed the boot ROMs without using a USB cable...
"Have you ever thought about just turning off the TV, sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?"
Will I be able to freeze Motorola's bank account (since my money is in it, after all) if they do something I don't agree with? Then restore it once they meet my criteria? Otherwise, no sale.
I hear you! There's a former Asus 500w Premium router I bricked once that I regret. But all in all it was worth it to me. The cost of doing business.
I really like running DD-WRT on cheap routers, and over time, I've bricked one or two; and I accept I broke the manufacturer's warranty by attempting the 'upgrade' in the first place. Those things deliver international office VPN/VOIP functions that more than offset the cost & loss of a few bricked routers overall. I can accept a few bricks
You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
You don't own the device you supposedly bought.
Avoid such hardware like the plague.
Why was it not bricked for me? Because I already knew how to fix it: Enable shadow ROM on another computer, and plug the improperly-flashed BIOS into it hot. Then, just re-flash with the correct image, put the hardware back where it was, and move on with life.
You are a proper hacker. You're Doin' It Right.
Bricking means the device is hosed and cannot be recovered without breaking in and modifying the hardware.
No, you seem to misunderstand the meaning of the word "brick". As defined by Wiktionary:
Noun .
brick (countable and uncountable; plural bricks)
1. (countable) A hardened rectangular block of mud, clay etc., used for building.
This wall is made of bricks
A brick is something you build houses with. A device that is in a state of non-function is called a "brick" because that's about all you could do with it. A device that I don't know how to return to a functioning state to me is a brick. If you know how to fix it, then to you it is not a brick, and if you offer to help me fix it then it is no longer a brick to me either. That's what adolf is saying, and I agree. Take a second to let that sink in and maybe you will understand.
we are selling you a DEVICE that makes phone calls. a device AND software that makes the device work. and how the device and software work is OUR responsibility and right to keep 100% control of. forever. we invented the shit. its ours. we didnt have HAVE to let you play with our toys and technology at all. so long as it makes phone calls you can piss up a rope. i dont care about your reasons, your justifications, your logic. you have NO right to do ANYTHING with this device that we did not intend! If we don't like what you ARE doing with our device. We can turn your device 'off' for as long as we wish.
if you dont like it and wont agree to that.. we wont sell you our fucking product!
yep. they asked for it i guess. distasteful? meh... seems ok to me.
Riddle me this:
Why are PSPs considered "bricked" when you can get a pandora's battery and "unbrick" them.
Because PSP owners are retards.
I'd like to see a house built of bricked devices. Then you could definitively say that they were literally bricked.
and people go to jail for them, thats probably why we are seeing Motorola stammer and say its reversible
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logic_bomb
"A logic bomb is a piece of code intentionally inserted into a software system that will set off a malicious function when specified conditions are met."
now whos first to file charges ?
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know of any android device that's meant by the manufacturer to be tinkered with? No protected bootloaders, read only filesystems, or any other such shenanigans that are meant to make the task of installing custom ROMs as difficult as possible.
I know the Nexus One is supposed to be very easy to root, and thus developer friendly, but unfortunately it's not available everywhere.
Bricked and dead are often two different things.
No, they are not.
There are many different reasons to lock things down. There is a reason for gaming consoles, is that the company wants to stop piracy of games. The reason to lock down audio players is again to stop piracy of music. Now the reason for locking down an android-based phone isn't piracy, it is pressure from the telecommunications companies. There may be other reasons (such as artificially shortening product life), but I think they are less important. I do think there should be a big yellow sticker on every locked down device telling you that this device is locked down.
Anyway what i wish more is that there were GSM radio chips whose interface is so simple, that you couldn't do anything nasty with it. There could be a radio interface that has a one-to-one correspondence with the android API. This interface could be completely open, and documented, maybe even standardized. The radio chip firmware could be locked down, but nobody will care about it. Not most hackers anyway. The telecom companies wouldn't care for the standard software to be locked down, as it doesn't give any more power to the customers to do nasty things on their network. Then things like companies refusing to release all source code might be rare, and you wouldn't have to rely on binary compiled rild, or reverse engineering to release your own open rom. By the way, does the official G1 phone have an open source rild, can you have all code that runs on the software processor be open source? I always assumed no, but please correct me if i'm wrong.
The reason presented by motorola, is just going the wrong way about it. Only running pre-approved roms might be a feature for something like a company who wants to buy phones for its employees.I can see nothing wrong about this company controlling something they own. It is so easy to add spy apps to unlocked android phones, that I see no reason to why industrial espionage whouldn't be common. But the entity that owns the phone should in my opinion be able to disable the locking. It is always a feature if you can prevent someone doing something to your phone, but it is a misfeature if you are prevented from doing something with your own phone.
If a device is bricked, _no one_ can reactivate it - it is dead
If you throw enough money at a thing you can revive even a dead hunk of clay. By your definition nothing is ever bricked, since there is always some way to revive something. The only useful definition of "bricked" is the one where a bricked device needs special tools for recovery that weren't needed for installing the modification in the first place, aka your path of recovery is blocked. One can probably make a few exception if the special tools aren't so special, but common household items, but once it involved soldering or replacing chips on the board, thats a brick.
Bricked is permanent.
Well then by your definition it's pretty much impossible to "brick" a device without otherwise destroying it, as it's always possible to "unbrick" it by replacing code (whether via JTAG, secret button presses or other means) or swapping components.
Back in the real world, it's a relative term. If you can't unbrick your device then as far as you are concerned it's bricked, even if the manufacturer or someone with a bit more brains could actually fix it for you.
Devices based on the TMS320F28xx series processors can be bricked to the point that the CPU must be replaced.
The security features of the chip is programmed wrong can lock the chip in a way that it can never be unlocked!
This is not the only CPU that exhibits this feature. you can't even recover it with JTAG
It's slang that used to mean it's as useful as a house brick and there is no way back to making it useful. Others took it up to sound cool and started using it for random inconvenience. That has confused everyone which is why we get these silly aruments.
I've used it today in the context of a device that HP techs could not get working again after return and that's the sort of thing a lot of readers expect here when they see "brick", good as a doorstop but not good for the original purpose.
In my mind it's the same as calling the beige box on the floor a "hard drive" or those idiots that call a MAC address a hostid but if people understand what you mean it ultimately doesn't matter.
There's no point about being a pedant about people misusing slang just to try to sound cool.
I think needs to have a few of these bricks thrown through their window, then lets see how they treat their 3rd party developers and customers.
RES PUBLICA NON DOMINETUR
So.....from your perspective most of the world is bricked, because you can not fix it. Good god!
I've no idea why people who might want fancy features like VoIP on the phone are still buying phones from these asshats. We all needed to hack our phones once upon a time, but now we've got the N900 that comes out of the box with terminal, sype & voip integration, etc.
The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
JTAG only recovery is considered bricked as it is technically one is hacking the hardware and pushing a new flash to the EEPROM straight down the chip pins. One can do this on all EEPROMS (how do you think they flash them in the factory?) however the exact interface is device dependent, there are even differences in JTAG pin arrangements even if the data format is standardized.
That's easy. They had the brains to fuck it up, but didn't have the brains to put it back right.
You say the term 'bricked' got warped, which is true enough etymologically, but the reality is also that it got appropriated to fill a gap.
There isn't a punchy little word that's quite as appealing and new and appropriate to technology (specifically) that describes a device getting temporarily but catastrophically ... um .... hosed/trashed/corrupted.
People were wanting a word to fill that gap and they grabbed the handiest, sweetest-sounding one around. If there's a beter sounding (and definitionally more sound) word for catastrophically failed tech, we better start using it before it's too late!
Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility. - Ambrose Bierce
You did break the seals on the screws and void the hardware warranty ;)
A USB cable is a specialist tool when it comes to mobiles, most users have never, and probably will never, connected their phone to their computer. This concept is alien to most users.
Huh... what?
Every mobile phone with a camera comes with a USB cable nowadays. How would otherwise those pictures be transfered to a PC? Furthermore, most if not all phones are nowadays capable of playing MP3 files, which, again, need to be transfered from a PC to the phone. Finally, most (all?) smartphones have calendaring functions which allow/require syncing with a PC. For which they use a USB cable.
A USB cable is absolutely not alien to current mobile phone users.It hasn't been for the last 5 years, in fact!
"The agriculture ministry is not in charge of Gundam" - Japanese ministry official.
Technically they isn't many ways to be 100% dead, if we are allowing JTAG as not counting as dead, then I guess desoldering and replacing components means it not bricked either. I think most would now agree we have gone too far.
so, swapping the CPU is a component that can't physically be swapped?
I have no idea if in this safe mode it's easy to install the authorized software.
It's as easy as copying a file called update.zip onto the sd-card and then reboot. But you probably need a specialized equipment called an sd-card reader ;-) .
If you mashed up your phone, mixed it with clay, shaped the mass into a rectangular prism, and left it in the sun to dry, then I'd call it bricked.
To unbrick, just reverse the process.
Definitions. Why can't people keep them simple, like me?
I am anarch of all I survey.
hmmmm. how about the below for an approach :
...
shove your fucking product, up your ass. let me wake you up to a very important point of free market :
CUSTOMER MAKES THE DECISIONS. NOT YOU. ITS THE RULE OF FREE MARKET.
it is as fucking simple as that. we do not care about your woes, your problems, your issues, what you can give, what you cannot give, what rights you think that we deserve, what rights you think that you deserve, this or that.
if you dont give us what WE want, we wont buy your product. you dont even need to 'not sell' your brick to us.
say bye bye to your market share
Read radical news here
you know what'd be fun? Let's spends several hours debating the "actual" meaning of a slang term. Can we do hella next? Because my friend says it means "really really" but he's just a fucking retard because I'm positive it means "really really really".
I don't think you actually even need JTAG. I've borked up many WRT54G's, I think I have pretty much every version kicking around in various places - Just hold a piece of wire on the antenna ground block, then run the other end of it across the flash chip - Some people preferred to short out a specific pin (I forget which one now) but I'd just run the wire over a few until the power light started blinking, TFTP mode, reflash. Never once has this method failed.
Bricked means the software in programmable ROM is no longer operational. The only way to recover is having access to factory hardware rigs or other special tools that are used to program the devices at the factory.
If you can't plug in a standard USB cable and run the official upgrade process then the device is bricked.
Changing or attempting to change your phone's OS voids it anyway so its a moot point.
You could use bluetooth, at least Nokia phones can do all that. My E65 didn't came with an USB cable nor have I ever required one, usually I just use Wifi to transfer stuff.
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I don't know, I can play games with a brick - can the same be said for a PSP? I don't think so.
There are two problems with this. First of all, we're talking about Touchscreenphones, and I'd suggest to you that ca clear majority of users have, actually, connected their Touchscreenphone to their computer. The first generation iPhones actually needed to be hooked up to the computer to be "activated" because of the moronic non-standard SIM lock they were using, and most iPhone users use tools like iTunes to manage their MP3 libraries. Virtually all Touchscreenphones make a big deal about their ability to play music, something that requires copying the music to them. It's safe to say the vast majority of users aren't using Bluetooth for this.
The second is we're talking about an instance in which a device will be rendered unusable if, and only if, it has undergone a procedure that involves plugging it into a computer using a USB cable.
If a device can be rendered usable again using the exact same equipment that was used to render it unusable, and that actually came in the box with it, then I'd say those who are saying the popular definition of "Brick" doesn't apply here. This isn't a case where your Motorola RAZR is rendered unusable if you tap the "Star" button three times, it's a case where your Droid X is rendered unusable if you plug it into a computer, and attempt to load the "wrong" operating system. If this is bricking, then attempting to install Mac OS X onto a Dell by coping a partition over from a Mac is "bricking" a Dell.
None of the above should be taken as justifying Motorola's decision to require signed operating systems. Just that I think the term "Bricking" doesn't apply here. I think Motorola's actions certainly go against the spirit of openness that Android is supposed to be about, and they certainly violate the "If you sell it to someone, it's their's" rule that we condemn Apple for, even if these moves aren't as extreme as Apple's.
You are not alone. This is not normal. None of this is normal.
Bricking is when I can't recover it using tools normally available to the public.
Sometimes I test devices in the place where they make the firmware.
I "brick" the product all the time.
Depending on what type of product it is, I take it to the unbricking lady or to a guy named Jim.
And they unbrick it.
Ask any of the lab rats or developers--if you break it in such a manner that it's stupid until they fix it with developer/mfr tools, it's a brick.
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
If this works--which is to say that the phones still sell and Moto suffers only tolerable humiliation, expect to see more.
And if it does fly, look for it be in your general-purpose computer, soon.
Let's hope the popular blogs make a big stink about it. /.
'Cause nobody is listening to the crackpots on
"Reality is that which, when you stop believing in it, it doesn't go away." - Philip K. Dick
Frankly, I'd be interested in knowing how they rooted the phone and then changed the boot ROMs without using a USB cable...
up up down down left right left right B A
tomorrow who's gonna fuss
It will still run with an old (or even no) air filter, but it will end up totalled eventually if you operate it like that...
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
And indeed there are people who make a lot of money repairing "bricked" devices for people, or buying "bricked" devices from people, fixing them and reselling them.
http://spamdecoy.net - free throwaway anonymous email - avoid spam!
A USB cable is a specialist tool when it comes to mobiles...
The Jitterbug isn't the only phone out there.
Your response to the transmission problem was the smart choice. Industry standard is to replace the part, since rebuilding requires special tools and often a supply of organ donor transmissions. You swapped the unit as it was designed to be swapped,
(I'm a mechanic, but if I need a rebuilt trans I buy one from a volume rebuilder except in the case of simple, ancient automatics.)
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
:brick: n.
1. A piece of equipment that has been programmed or configured into
a {hung}, {wedged},unusable state. Especially used to describe what
happens to devices like routers or PDAs that run from firmware when
the firmware image is damaged or its settings are somehow patched to
impossible values. This term usually implies irreversibility, but
equipment can sometimes be unbricked by performing a hard reset or
some other drastic operation. Sometimes verbed: "Yeah, I bricked the
router because I forgot about adding in the new access-list.".
2. An outboard power transformer of the kind associated with
laptops, modems, routers and other small computing appliances,
especially one of the modern type with cords on both ends, as
opposed to the older and obnoxious type that plug directly into wall
or barrier strip.
Too late. I don't know if I'll ever need to root my phone, but I want to know that I can. I was considering the Droid X and the HTC EVO 4G, and eFuse was the leading reason for selecting the HTC phone.
It's my phone, if I didn't want control, I would get an iPhone.
How so? Apple doesn't brick your phone if you jailbreak it, and as far as I know, they've never gone after an individual legally over jail breaking their personal phone. The ability to put the phone in recovery mode and restore it to factory is pretty easy as well. If anything, this is more extreme, as the phone is supposed to be an open platform.
So what you're saying is the term has a meaning relative to the technical adeptness of the device's owner.
I know a heck of a lot of brick owners, in that case. But I wouldn't want to change that. Tards who leave a nice PC out on the curb for me to scoop up and salvage need their ignorance coddled and encouraged.
I have a bricked Silicon Graphics 02 workstation. It 'just quit working' one day when I powered it on. Those things are just exotic enough and the docs are just obscure enough that I wasn't able to get it working. The cats like to sit on it, it's the right height to raise them up off the floor to the height they prefer.
Indeed. I have several Model 2500 desk phones. Even one model 500 that has the rotary dial.
If you throw enough money at a thing you can revive even a dead hunk of clay.
To be technical, you actually use a kiln to brick a dead hunk of clay.
I suppose you could 'unbrick' it by pulverizing it fine enough and turning the brick back into clay. Although thinking about it, probably not. The 'bricking' process does some dramatic things to the structure of the clay.
I,ll just put an ePenny in the fuse box.
Have gnu, will travel.
It is DRM because it also does this if the OS you install is unsigned - even if it would otherwise be fully functional running the software. The only OS you're allowed to run is the factory default one, or any officially updated one.
FC Closer
Repairability doesn't always negate brickness. Having the company replace parts would seem to be the very definition of bricked. OTOH, pull a jumper and reboot to reset the BIOS? I think most of slashdot wouldn't call something that minor bricked, since it's fairly easy for the owner to do, no special tools or soldering or software or replacement needed. Once it starts going into special tools (like needing its own handheld widget with proprietary connector and software to diagnose and fix things), we're on the far side of the grey area.
My daughter (12) does it all the time to upload Java games, mp3s and videos, and occasionally to download photos to the PC. This "specialist tool" was included with the purchase, also with the manual, that tells you how to update the firmware using this.
I wasn't even able to find a USB cable for my (employer-supplied) G502 to buy.
They exist in theory and that's where they seem to be stuck.
Bluetooth or swapping the SD cards works well enough and who cares about "modding" such an outdated thing anyway though so who cares in the end.
Do me a favor and send me all your bricked phones. I sense profit. Make sure you opt for the insurance...I don't want you to screw with my chance on making a killing off of your "bricked" phone.
It's great that Motorola has authorized specific software for this device. I wonder who they'll authorize me to call and when? It's so nice to have your freedom taken away, because later you get the marvelous treat of being 'authorized'.
I assure you that a bricked device does NOT meet that dictionary definition of brick and never does. Any metaphor can be taken too far.
bricked means made similar to a brick by a software change, not physically made to match the classical dictionary definition of the word brick.
If you can fix it easily without opening the device up, then it's not a brick.
If you have to crack it open (disassemble it), and manipulate electronics physically or modify them, then that is an unbricking technique, but the device was still a brick before the unbricking.
Frankly, I'd be interested in knowing how they rooted the phone and then changed the boot ROMs without using a USB cable...
up up down down left right left right B A
this isn't a palm pre and it doesn't have preware amd developer mode
Then an update failed - with a message saying the PCI bus was doomed, or something similar. It sat in my server closet for about 2 years, and then I found an Ubuntu install disk on my desk, which had some diagnostics on. I ran the diagnostics, and they said it was fine. Ubuntu installed and I am still using it as a dumb terminal for LOM on my Sun Servers.
Recently, I tried reinstalling Windows on it. It wont go. I have not retried FreeBSD.
Obviously Windows is bricked, but the T21 and Ubuntu are not.
Sent from my ASR33 using ASCII
When in doubt consult the dictionary
A few years ago, I really fucked up a WRT54G when playing with software. I was going to throw it away, when I stumbled across a process for programming it using its JTAG interface and a parallel port. (Which worked fine.)
Bricked means you can't make it work again without messing with the hardware. Clearly everything is always fixable if you open the box up. Worse case scenario, you get new parts (like a ROM chip from another box) and you solder them in. However, if there's absolutely any way you can make it work again without having to open the box up and start messing with the hardware, it was never bricked.
Because people were bricking their PSP's long before the pandora battery method was found.
Wait, am I getting my stories mixed up?
6.8SPC TR of 550, l xwind at 6, drift rt at 26" drops 77". AT has 503 ft-lbs at 1403 fps. FT 0.86
I don't know what the situation is today, but in the past this functionality was definitely not available to Verizon Wireless users. VZ disabled direct connections to the USB port so the only way to transfer pictures to and from the phone was via a data connection over its network or via an SD card if the phone has that capability. In general you had to email or text the photos to yourself and pay any consequent data charges.
I'd venture to guess that it's still the case that most cellphone users never use their USB cables to transfer anything. They take pictures on their phones and use them as local wallpapers or hold them up so their friends can see them on the screen. The market for ringtones and sales of music tracks for phones is estimated to exceed $10B in the next few years. I have a technologically sophisticated teen-aged daughter who could move stuff to any from her phone over USB the same way she does with her Sansa player. Most of her friends wouldn't have the slightest idea how to accomplish any of that.
I only buy unlocked phones to avoid these problems.
Unfortunately your definition of "bricked" would loosen the definition to anyone who incorrectly installs software and needs technical assistance in fixing the install would have bricked the device. That means I bricked my first Linux install because I didn't compile it with all the necessary libraries.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
That's suposed to make the firmware CRC check fail, so it enters a mode where you can upload new firmware. It's way safer to use JTAG (many people have fucked up their routers by shorting pins). Besides, you can backup the CFE (some important part of the flash-thingy) and be sure you'll be able to fix a brick.
Yeah. Would you choose a neurosurgeon who pokes around people's brains in his spare time? I wouldn't.
I have no idea if in this safe mode it's easy to install the authorised software. If it is easy I wouldn't call that bricked either. I'd just call it nasty DRM that I'll steer well clear of.
My definition of "easy": the instructions to recover functionality is in the user manual or on the product's support page on the company's website.
CAPSHA: paralyze
Exactly. Of course, because Motorola has spurned a complete community/scene of developers, I'm sure there is a market who is not going to authorize any Motorola purchases anytime soon.
Since Motorola has no recent keyboard slider phones, there is no real advantage of their devices over HTC anymore.
I'm just hoping Google makes a Nexus 2 that is usable with an "OEM unlock" command.
The word you are looking for is PEBKAC.
Feh.
There is a very good transmission shop not far from my house where they keep and understand such special tools. It could've been rebuilt, and the rebuild would have carried a long warranty. But it would have been expensive (labor, mostly). That would've caused it to cease being a brick. I also looked at possibly buying a rebuilt unit, I just couldn't find anyone selling such a thing that I felt I could trust.
But the whole experience made me very jaded about automatic transmissions in general. Accordingly, the fix that I actually implemented involved replacing the 4L30E with a used 5-speed Getrag that had about 80,000 fewer miles on it. Works good, is simpler, more fun, and will probably outlive the rest of the car. It's an easy swap on an E36 BMW, since they fit together like legos.
The used tranny came with a parts car, too, so I've also got another engine, a nearly-complete set of fidgety electronic bits, and various other componentry.
Kid-proof tablet..
coaster?
In the US, federal law says otherwise.
AFAIK, no phone manufacturer has ever gotten a FTC exemption from Magnuson-Moss.
15 USC 2302(c)
Maybe so but I would bet if you did something to a piece of hardware that rendered it inoperable, you would probably post some message asking "I've managed to brick my xyz, does anyone know how to unbrick it?"
I would say brick is an inoperable device that could potentially be unbricked.
And if you really think about it, most hardware could be made to work again if you have the right tools--from BIOS recovery mode for PCs, JTAG interfaces, unsolder flash chips.
And I was really stoked about Moto coming back in and showing some new tech to market... this is exactly why I'm once again choosing someone else. I want to do whatever I want with hardware once I've paid for it. Now, if I could get the phone for free, I might not bitch, but really, people are paying for phones that cost what you can buy a netbook for these days... If I bought a netbook and was told "You can't install anything on here except what it comes with" do you really think I'd drop 300 dollars on it?? I guess most people don't care, but it will be interesting to see if this bites Moto in the ass.
How can they do this to us. its just as bad as Apple!!
And for those slow among us, that was sarcasm. Remember Its a phone, they aren't supposed to be user modifiable devices so why are we surprised when they are restricted?
Don't like it, buy a real computer.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Hella can mean "really" or "a lot of". Examples:
"Dude has HELLA good weed." - Indicating that "dude" has really good marijuana.
"Dude has HELLA weed." - Indicating that "dude" has a lot of marijuana.
"Dude has HELLA, HELLA good weed." - Indicating that "dude' has a lot of really good marijuana.
You people from outside of Northern California never seem to get the usage right. It's like you heard it from some pop song that bit it from us.
Then I'd say your employer didn't want you having it..
I got my cable with my(now retired) G502.
So they certainly aren't stuck in theory.
Politicians know jack shit as those laws have done nothing but harm innovation and thus the economy.
There, fixed that for you. Bricked is permanent. Non-permanent "bricking" isn't bricking at all. If you can revive it, it was never bricked in the first place.
Who cares. I don't want a device that is effectively capable of committing automatic suicide if I don't use it in some approved manner. Screw that. I bought a G1 early, rooted it two days later, and have been running various third-party ROMS ever since (Cyanogenmod is still my current favorite.) Yes, there's a risk of "bricking" the device (not flashing the correct radio and SPL in the proper order, etc.) but that's a matter of my screwing up and having to JTAG myself back. I have it on good authority that I'll be getting a Nexus One on my birthday, so Motorola can just go screw themselves. Seriously, these things are not cell phones anymore, they're bloody damn pocket- sized computers and I'll run the operating system of my choice, thank you very much.
Cell phone providers want to lock out third-party operating systems simply because they feel it will eliminate any revenue stream they get from proprietary apps and sales of ringtones and other useless cruft. Or course, they spin that by saying the need to prevent alternate platforms is because they want to "maintain the user experience" (read: keep users locked into the preprogrammed lameness) or to "help manage our network effectively to maintain proper service levels" or some such. Large helpings of BS at pretty much every level. Frankly, offering a true general-purpose computing system is not what they really want to do (because then they won't be able to nickle-and-dime us to death at every turn), what's unfortunate for them is that more and more people are demanding more power and more freedom. I will give T-Mobile credit for even selling a rootable device like the G1, and then working out a deal with Google for the N1, which can be rooted and is supplied carrier-unlocked anyway.
Sorry, Motorola, you were the big cheese in the cellular world once, but it appears that you still don't get it, and are a bit too friendly with the big boys like AT&T and Verizon.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
Technically a lot of the stuff companies have been pulling lately is way illegal but the congress and senate are not doing their job and instead are accepting payouts. Sony should have been made to issue a refund for every PS3 sold and MS should have only been able to ban chipped Xboxe 360s from XBL but could not disable the HD or media functions. If this hurts their profit margins then so be it that's how society is supposed to work you do wrong and screw people over you pay. Moto should have to fix every e-fused phone for no charge and customers should be able to send the phone back for a full refund if they are not happy with Motorola's and the carrier's terms.
My friends use the Rn system, where n = number of "really"s.
Ex: I got R7 drunk last night. = I got really really really really really really really drunk last night.
So then hella = (R2 || R3). Personally I would put it at R4, but I think I just lost brain cells typing this.
You probably burned the voltage regulator chip. Perhaps a few resistors. Nothing major...
For large sets, this will be our guide even unto death, for the LORD will work for each type of data it is applied to...
> A USB cable is a specialist tool when it comes to mobiles, most users have never, and probably will never, connected their phone to their computer.
Er, no. I'll grant that a JTAG is a specialist tool, even if plenty of Slashdot's users own one.
I'll even partly concede you might have a point if the device can be resuscitated using a DB25f connector, some wires, and access to a PC with a real parallel port (or a 2x13 IDC header on the mobo with the same signals, still quite common even on PCs without an actual parallel port on the back), just because getting *anything* that bitbangs a raw parallel port to work reliably under Windows is *harder* than rooting and reflashing most Android phones (thanks, Bill!).
But a USB cable? No. Every Android phone I know of includes one in the box, and anybody who's reflashed his phone to a custom ROM (or trying to do so) is going to be quite intimately familiar with its use by the time he gets to any point where bricking his phone is a real possibility.
God bless my Nexus One. This is actually WORSE than the iPhone. Motorola, you've lost a customer for life.
While I can see Motorola's reason for "protecting the user experience" by doing this, what really scares me is that Apple could just as easily do this to future iPhones and iPads, also in the guise of "protecting the user experience". And, to be honest, I could see their reason for wanting to do so. The argument against this, which I have put to Apple before, is "What would be the backlash if you did this to your laptop range - made it impossible to install non-Apple approved software" - of course, the backlash would be the death-knell of the company. No-one in their right mind would purchase a laptop with those restrictions (and let's face it - hardware-wise Apple is a closed platform). Why do it with the iPhone and iPad then ?
But if the bricking was caused by blowing a fuse designed to prevent unauthorized firmware from being run on the device, I'd bet the user has whatever cables are required to load the factory firmware also:) so Id have to say it was not bricked, just Defective By Design with DRM restrictions.
re-boot once approved software is re-installed.
I don't like the use of this word "approved" anymore.
Motorola are also arseholes who make chips for landmines...
If you're defining by perception then I have a different definition. Bricking can be perceived as simply rendering a device inoperable. If the mod itself didn't cause the bricking, as in the mod is compatible with said device and would operate minus such DRM schemes, a function that renders the phone useless is just as bad as actually "bricking" it. To most people bricking means to render inoperable which eFuse does. I can "brick" my Palm by dropping from my balcony, but Palm can refurbish said phone so I guess it wouldn't really be "bricked".
Under this definition my girlfriend is bricked.
This is another term that has entered the popular lexicon and got warped. If a device is bricked, _no one_ can reactivate it - it is dead. If someone can revive the device for a fee, it's not bricked.... it's just something you probably should not have bought in the first place. Bricked means bricked - and I've had a few devices go that way on me because of mistakes.
By your definition nothing is ever bricked. It's always possible to fix something if you want to spend enough money. The definition I always used was about what a device was worth. A bricked device is no more useful than a brick if it costs more money to fix than what it's worth. Pretty much like the term "totaled" for a car.
And when calling 911 does the GPS operate fully. I can tell ya that the cell tower triangulation stuff does not work quickly. Good thing that the bicycle guy I found splatted on a street who's name I spaced is OK.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
It really blows my mind that anyone could be so absurd as to keep pushing the illusion that Google is in charge (again it is the OHA, NOT Google), and then complain that they open sourced the code when nobody else has, and you complain that companies can add innovations without giving them away while still allowing you to shun them in favour of a custom build.
Guns don't kill people; Physics kills people! - John Lithgow as Dick Solomon on Third Rock From The Sun
Riddle me this:
snip....
A USB cable is a specialist tool when it comes to mobiles, most users have never, and probably will never, connected their phone to their computer. This concept is alien to most users.
How right you are. I was recently helping a friend migrate from one smart phone to another and to do so required a USB connection, and software then the software wanted to update itself (It was a fresh download) then the updated software DEMANDED that I update the phone before I could move to a step that permits the exporting of contact list, photos etc...
The number of EULA was four, perhaps more. Four ELUA steps to extract a contact list! OMG! I have no idea if I signed the life of my first or second born child away or just a list of patents associated with my DNA.
Truth is stranger than fiction, but it is because Fiction is obliged to stick to possibilities; Truth isn't. Mark Twain.
Technically, it's not the job of congress or the senate to enforce laws.
I'm just sayin'...
Kid-proof tablet..