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IEEE Looks At Kevin Costner's Oil Cleanup Machines

richardkelleher writes "IEEE Spectrum takes a look at the machines developed by a company funded by Kevin Costner that are supposed to extract the oil from the Gulf waters. Is it possible that in the years since the Exxon Valdez, that Kevin Costner is the only one who has invested money into the technology of oil spill cleanup?"

79 of 289 comments (clear)

  1. Hmm by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I wonder how he sent them the plans...

    I bet he put them in an envelope and gave it to the postman.

    1. Re:Hmm by MichaelSmith · · Score: 3, Informative

      Such a great book, and such a crap movie. Its a shame.

  2. I don't trust him by Vinegar+Joe · · Score: 4, Funny

    He's got webbed feet.

    --
    "The average reporter we talk to is 27 years old......They literally know nothing." - Ben Rhodes
    1. Re:I don't trust him by commodore64_love · · Score: 3, Funny

      But he also dances with wolves, so he can't be all bad.

      --
      "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - historian Evelyn Beatrice Hall
    2. Re:I don't trust him by RDW · · Score: 5, Funny

      'The dude dropped too much acid back in the 70's . . . he hears voices . . . and has hallucinations about baseball fields, and shit . . .'

      Yeah, stay away from that stuff. I had a really bad trip a few months back - ended up in a movie theatre where they must have been showing 'Dances With Wolves', but it looked like all the Sioux had changed into weird blue aliens who were COMING OUT OF THE SCREEN at me. Someone gave me a pair of shades but they just made it worse. Crazy shit.

    3. Re:I don't trust him by inamorty · · Score: 3, Funny

      Pocahontas is awesome!

  3. Re:Recycling by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Though much maligned, Waterworld did make a surprisingly decent profit in the end: $175m cost, with awful reviews and a mere $116m gross box-office in the US, but another $176m worldwide and pretty good DVD receipts as well.

    So I suppose it's feasible Costner had a little left over for water-cleaning tech ;)

  4. Actors.. by conares · · Score: 2, Funny

    When I was a kid back in the eighties, I always wondered what would happen if Clint Eastwood, Telly Savalas, Charles Bronson and those other guys from all those war movies died. Real tough guys, just watching them fight made your face hurt back then. At some point, IMHO, Kevin Costner also reached that level of actorness. Back then I just thought "no more good movies, that's for sure". Kevin Costner just raised the bar. When he dies the world will go under.

    Oh yea...to me Chuck Norris was just a bitch-slappin' red haired pussy.

    --
    That, that really grinds my gears!
    1. Re:Actors.. by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 3, Funny

      Clint Eastwood, Telly Savalas, Charles Bronson

      Kevin Costner also reached that level of actorness

      Oh no you dih-unt.

    2. Re:Actors.. by refitman · · Score: 2, Informative

      You should have a look at Mr. Brooks. That one kinda took me by surprise. Very good film, plus it's got William Hurt, who's always good value.

      --
      First God made idiots. That was for practice. Then He made Jack Thompson.
  5. 3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by Vexar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Wow. I don't care if whatever Kevin Costner invested his fortune in amounted to something as hare-brained as a Brewster's Millions investment scam, he did something to try to prevent a dystopian future. Yay, Kevin! Even if the apparent goal of WaterWorld was to bankrupt Sony Pictures, you at least did something. I wonder if guilt motivated his actions at all? Oh well, all good.

  6. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Because it doesn't matter at all if it actually works, what matters is that we all felt good about it. P*sigh* The last 20 years of civilization and higher learning in a nutshell.

    --
    Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
  7. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by jedidiah · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If you throw enough Linguini at the wall eventually something will stick.

    You will never get anything to stick to the wall if you never try.

    This is why freaks like RMS end up achieving something and the rest of us "sensible" people just end up as corporate drones.

    --
    A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
  8. Go Costner! Boo on BP! by adosch · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This is just a sad point in our world as far as leadership and the quest for the almighty (falling) dollar is concerned. Corruption, apathetic business maneuvers, greed and the "things-are-going-good" mentality caused this whole oil spill to happen. FTFA, I think it's funny how the only plug against this whole centrifuge technology to clean up oil is based on what the end-quality of "oil" will come out of them? How about the end- quality of our oceans, sea life, beaches and aquatic mammals? We all know how oil cleanups work: if it looks good on the surface, time to move on. I hate to don my hippy hate today, but I'm ashamed to associated to humans sometimes.

  9. I wonder if Waterworld was the driver. by Jason+Pollock · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I seem to remember that a ship sank on the set of Waterworld, and they had to pay a tonne of money to clean up the resulting debris and spills. I can see how that lesson would have been a driver for developing a technology to make it cheaper. Scratch that itch!

    1. Re:I wonder if Waterworld was the driver. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I seem to remember that a ship sank on the set of Waterworld, and they had to pay a tonne of money to clean up the resulting debris and spills. I can see how that lesson would have been a driver for developing a technology to make it cheaper. Scratch that itch!

      I worked on Waterworld, like half the people in Hollywood. What sank was that artificial island they built. I wasn't on set at the time but it was a mess and cost them months. They also shot the first two or three months without a final script so they mostly shot guys riding around on jet skis. That why there's so much footage of those. It was the most waseful shoot I was ever on.

    2. Re:I wonder if Waterworld was the driver. by pipingguy · · Score: 2, Funny

      [waves fist] Finally I have someone to blame! You owe me $7.50 and 135 minutes of my life that I'll never get back!

  10. Re:Recycling by ColdWetDog · · Score: 2, Informative

    Most everybody hated it although I liked it well enough. Perhaps because it was so hyped and so patently moralizing. I thought Dennis Hopper was great. Costner can't act to save his life but he seems to be a reasonable director.

    --
    Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
  11. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Jason+Pollock · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think you should read the article again. :)

    The problem with the centrifuges is not the quality of the oil coming out. It's that they don't deal well with tarballs or dispersants. They need liquid oil so that it can be separated by spinning it.

    Since you're spinning it to get the oil to rise to the top, if it doesn't flow (tarball), or doesn't separate (dispersant), the device ain't going to work. That is what the article was saying.

                      "he worries that much of the oil being picked up now will be too heavily degraded or contaminated
                        with dispersants to be easily separated."

  12. Re:Maybe not the only one by Ephemeriis · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well why should they? They only have to look after the interest of the shareholders and thats maximising Profit Baby!*

    * may not be true but thats how it seems to be in practice.

    A corporation's only goal is to maximize profit. That's how it works. They actually have a responsibility to their shareholders to make money. I wouldn't really expect a corporation to invest money into something like developing technology to clean up oil spills unless it could demonstrate that the technology would somehow earn the shareholders money.

    You could make the argument that if BP (or Exxon or whoever) developed the technology they'd be able to sell it to others... Or minimize the fines/cleanup that they have to pay for... But, the way things actually work in the real world, there's little point in that. Business as usual makes more than enough money.

    Which is why, much as some people hate to admit it, some kind of government involvement is necessary.

    You can regulate the oil companies - force them to invest some amount of their profits into cleanup R&D.

    Or you can fund your own R&D project to develop the technology.

    But, as we've seen, The Market isn't interested in this stuff.

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  13. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by wealthychef · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We just need to tweak the rules of the game a little. A fair price has to be put on this kind of thing, so that oil companies will go broke if they screw up -- then we have to let them go broke instead of declaring them "too big to fail." Also, in this case, there appears to be a culture of negligence, and those responsible for the bad choices they made should be personally held accountable. Unfortunately, this last bit simply enriches lawyers, and I'm not sure what to do about that part. I guess writing really clear laws that have no doubt as to their intent and then letting human beings sort out the nuances rather than trying to describe everything in the law perfectly would probably help.

    --
    Currently hooked on AMP
  14. Theory vs Practice by DeadboltX · · Score: 5, Informative

    The machines seem to work well enough in tests; enough for BP to lease 32 of them right off the bat.
    TFA states that the machines are capable of separating 99% of the oil out of the water under ideal conditions, which would be soon after the oil began mixing with the water. Weeks/Months of time since the spill began, though, the water and oil mix becomes a frothy mousse which is more difficult to separate.

    I hope that the machines are still capable of collecting the oil from this mousse, even if at a slower pace than the more freshly mixed oil.

    1. Re:Theory vs Practice by Mr.+Freeman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Not just time, but the fact that BP has been dumping shitloads of dispersants into the ocean which serve to do NOTHING OTHER than make the oil mix better with the water. There isn't any way you could make this job any harder if you fucking tried.

      Anyone who has half a fucking brain, when asked the question "How do we get this oil out of the ocean", will not say "dump chemicals into the ocean that cause the oil and water to become nearly inseparable". BP, on the other hand, says "who cares if we get the oil out of the ocean, it's not profitable, more important is that we dump dispersant onto the spill to make the ocean surface look better to avoid bad press".

      --
      -1 disagree is not a modifier for a reason. -1 troll, flaimbait, redundant, overrated are NOT acceptable substitutes.
  15. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by AnonymousClown · · Score: 3, Insightful

    This is why freaks like RMS end up achieving something and the rest of us "sensible" people just end up as corporate drones.

    Now, for the first time in a long time, I don't feel so bad about being a corporate America reject.

    I just need to find some great thing to do....

    --
    RIP America

    July 4, 1776 - September 11, 2001

  16. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by twisteddk · · Score: 4, Informative

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news.... But oil cleanup and spill prevention has existed outside the US for decades. Thing is that the US offers a "bounty" on contaminated SEAWATER, not on reclaimed oil. So this technology has been of little intrest in the country where it was born. And at the same time, because countries like Norway, Denmark, the UK and many others are so adept at drilling at sea, they ofcourse have all reasearched in spill cleanup and even prevention. For instance, it's the LAW to equip all wells with a remote controllable shutoff valve if you want to drill in the north sea. A device which could easily have prevented the BP spill, but wasn't used, because it wasn't a requirement.
    Similarly, noone in their right mind would have used chemicals in the case of the BP spill, simply because collecting the oil afloat is much simpler than if you weigh it down where you can't reclaim it, and it affects the eco system much more profoundly.

    That said, if the existance of these centrifuges makes the US more practical in their approach to spill clean up and prevention, I'm all for it. And if they can supplement or improove on existing technology I dont really care who funded their development. It could have been Mickey Mouse as long as the technology gets to make a difference, instead of being buried.

    --
    --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
  17. The only one? by 0123456 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Apparently the Dutch offered to send ships that could recover 97% of the oil a couple of months back, but they weren't allowed due to US environmental regulations:

    http://www.rnw.nl/english/article/dutch-oil-spill-response-team-standby-us-oil-disaster

    1. Re:The only one? by greyhueofdoubt · · Score: 4, Informative

      That article is old. The dutch ships have been working in the gulf for a while now.

      http://www.examiner.com/x-325-Global-Warming-Examiner~y2010m6d15-Dutch-Skimmers-now-working-in-Gulf

      -b

      --
      No offense, but I've stopped responding to AC's.
    2. Re:The only one? by ducomputergeek · · Score: 3, Informative

      They are now, after the fact that things are really, really bad.

      They were rejected initially because they didn't purify the water "enough" for EPA standards. At first it was either because folks both at BP and government wanted to try the smoke and mirrors, "This is bad, but not *that* bad" until it became clear to everyone they were lying. Then it became a bureaucratic problem which after folks saw through the smoke and mirrors was quickly "solved" by taking the Dutch equipment and putting them on US ships and training the crews. Where as if we had allowed the dutch ships in to begin with, would have saved a lot of time.

      Which begs the question, why wasn't action done by the government sooner? All it would have taken was an executive order to allow these skimmers in sooner saying that in this case they could purify the water "enough". Because even if they can't purify 100%, anything they are going to do is better than doing nothing.

      --
      "The problem with socialism is eventually you run out of other people's money" - Thatcher.
  18. Re:Maybe not the only one by nine-times · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Yup. A business model that's only profitable when there's a disaster (natural or man-made) isn't going to have a predictable source of income. That is, unless the company making the disaster-solution product is also put into a position where it can create disasters-- in which case, you don't actually want that.

    So you have something which may be necessary but in which the "free market" will probably never invest. And after all, no one company really has enough of an interest in the Gulf of Mexico to pay for it to be cleaned up. BP didn't even have enough of an interest in the Gulf to prevent the spill from happening in the first place.

  19. Re:Well... by AndrewBC · · Score: 3, Funny

    Nonsense, he was hoping to head off the bad guys in Waterworld before they got started!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterworld#Smokers

  20. Spill cleanup tech is not new or invented by Kevin by MisterSchmoo · · Score: 5, Informative

    I have done work with Allmaritim and trialed and tested their NOFI Oil Spill equipment equipment in New Zealand and this technology is neither new nor invented by Kevin Costner. It is very sophisticated equipment and has been around for a long time. Are we supposed to think that nobody has been working on oil spill tech until Kevin came on the scene and said "hey we should do something about this" we also do work with Slickbar another spill tech company http://www.allmaritim.com/ http://www.slickbar.com/ if you go to their websites you'll find their kit is being used in the gulf, the company Kevin has something to do with, make centrifuges, you've got to collect the oily water first before you can separate it. You take Kevin Costner out of the story and the story is about some kind of cool oil separating centrifuges, not Kevin rushing in to save us from the oil which, we had in the meantime, been twiddling our thumbs and staring at.

  21. A ridiculous concept by Ancient_Hacker · · Score: 3, Insightful

    There's a reason nobody's invested in this technology-- the numbers are just impossible.

    Cosner's machine can process 200 gallons per minute. If you take the extent of the damage, about 17,000 square miles, and want to run the top ten feet of it through his device, and you could afford to buy 100,000 of them, it would take.....

            1,830 years

    to process that amount of water.

    And scientists have found the stuff distributed a whole lot deeper than that.

    1. Re:A ridiculous concept by Fred+Foobar · · Score: 5, Informative

      Cosner's machine can process 200 gallons per minute. If you take the extent of the damage, about 17,000 square miles, and want to run the top ten feet of it through his device, and you could afford to buy 100,000 of them, it would take.....

      1,830 years

      to process that amount of water.

      And scientists have found the stuff distributed a whole lot deeper than that.

      Your calculation is about 3 orders of magnitude too high:

      (17000 square miles * 10 feet) / (100000 * 200 gallons per minute) = 3.37035066 years

      But taking into account how much is far below 10 feet deep (as you mentioned), it would take quite a long time.

      --
      It was a really good paper.
  22. Re:Maybe not the only one by Mikkeles · · Score: 2, Insightful

    'A corporation's only goal is to maximize profit.'

    Corporations don't have goals, stakeholders do :) (/pedantic) The maximization of profits is a requirement of law and a desire of the shareholders.

    One can as well have a legal regime in which corporations are organizations for the provision of goods and/or services for the benefit of people and for which the generation of profits is a cost needed to entice investment for capital.

    --
    Great minds think alike; fools seldom differ.
  23. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is it possible that in the years since the Exxon Valdez, that Kevin Costner is the only one who has invested money into the technology of oil spill cleanup?"

    I'll bet that he wasn't the only one. A better question would be: would the same small company with the same clean-up technology garner as much congress attention and free press if it had not been headed and funded by a celebrity in the first place.

    Personally, I doubt it. As a society, we're still obsessed by celebrities. Companies or non-profits backed by celebrities often have a huge media advantage over competitors that have no celebrity-backing.

  24. Re:Maybe not the only one by cortesoft · · Score: 3, Informative

    Yep, it is know as the Tragedy of the commons

  25. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Thats easy to fix though. Just rm -r *.tar

  26. Reclaimed Oil Scoreboard? by BlueCoder · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think we should have a scoreboard for his machines. Post the operating logs and create a scoreboard. How many barrel of crude oil Costner's company was able to reclaim from the ocean and multiply that by the cost of crude oil. Then compare that to the price tag Costner charged them.

    They need a fleet of these machines able to be deployed anywhere in the world and they need to refine the machines or create others to bring the underwater plumes to the surface. The oil companies weren't ready when they should have been.

  27. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by Neoprofin · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You're confusing a spelling mistake with languages having dissimilar vowel sounds. Frankly if you want to see people butchering a language listen to French words carried over into German.

  28. There are other machines like this by Phil-14 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's not that noone's ever made machines like this; many have, and the "industry leader" is a company called Prosep from Canada.

    Keep in mind that using these machines, as long as they're not absolutely perfect, violates the Clean Water Act, which mandates perfection so strongly that 95% solutions are penalized. The bureaucracy sat around for a couple months basically trying to decide whether to ignore the fact that Costner's machines, while good, violate their rules, more or less, which is why these machines are (as another poster pointed out) used much more outside the US than within it.

    --
    (currently testing something about signatures here)
    1. Re:There are other machines like this by Chowderbags · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm a reasonable person who doesn't want to see the environment destroyed and all, but what idiot wrote a law saying that a cleanup effort must return something over 95% pure water to the ocean, rather than allowing for some purity level greater than the water coming in (at least for cleanup situations)? It sounds like the kind of boneheaded law that makes it much more likely for cleanup efforts to say "fuck it" and not do anything at all. Sure, getting it purer is good, but if you had something that could only remove half the oil from a volume of water but could pump several orders of magnitude better than anything else, wouldn't that be a decent trade off, at least for big spills? Sure, it'd be better to return 99.9...9% seawater, but with an area this large, anything that reduces the oil amount (instead of just hiding it) seems worth it.

  29. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by kaoshin · · Score: 2, Informative

    Moderation is explained in the FAQ

  30. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Firethorn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    For instance, it's the LAW to equip all wells with a remote controllable shutoff valve if you want to drill in the north sea. A device which could easily have prevented the BP spill, but wasn't used, because it wasn't a requirement.

    Sure about that? The accident blew through the blowout preventer.

    I remember reading about the pressures involved, they're higher than present in most guns...

    I'm not sure a separate shutoff device would have functioned itself, otherwise I'd have expected them to have gotten the well shut off a lot quicker - simply drop a valve onto the remains of the header, weld it on however they need to, then shut the valve. Not spend three months designing something that wouldn't look out of place on a rocket.

    --
    I don't read AC A human right
  31. Re:Maybe not the only one by chill · · Score: 4, Informative

    A corporation's only goal is to maximize profit

    That just flat out is NOT true. I wish people would stop regurgitating that on slashdot.

    Corporations can and do have other purposes and goals than just "enhancing shareholder value".

    This is an excellent summation of what I'm talking about. PDF link.

    --
    Learning HOW to think is more important than learning WHAT to think.
  32. Re:Maybe not the only one by dpilot · · Score: 4, Insightful

    > The maximization of profits is a requirement of law and a desire of the shareholders.

    I'll believe the latter - I'll need a reference for the former.

    I'll float a completely uninformed opinion... I think that the "legal requirement" for corporations to "to maximize profits and nothing else, within the limits of the law," is a bit of revisionist history designed to make sociopathic behavior expected and acceptable. I can accept that I may be wrong on this, but I do know that this type of language is something that seems to have come into normal usage only in the last 10-20 years, and I have a longer memory than that. Prior to that, "corporations were in business to make money," was commonly understood, but this concept that if they do anything else they're shirking their "responsibility" is new. Maybe it's really that stockholders have gotten more sociopathic. But I would have sworn that stockholder lawsuits were born in corporate mismanagement, not in failing to be sociopathic profiteers.

    --
    The living have better things to do than to continue hating the dead.
  33. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by Rubinstien · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's called the "Unreasonable Man Paradox"

    "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

    -- George Bernard Shaw

  34. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by thisissilly · · Score: 4, Insightful
    oil companies will go broke if they screw up

    Call me cynical, but it would never happen. Instead, oil companies would take a lesson from Hollywood, and make every single oil well its own corporation, so any disaster would be insulated to a single small corporation that goes broke.

  35. Re:Maybe not the only one by JimBobJoe · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A corporation's only goal is to maximize profit. That's how it works. They actually have a responsibility to their shareholders to make money

    The Economist had an article on this. Maximizing shareholder value as a company goal is, interestingly enough, a recent phenomenon, from the 1970s.

    The other two company goals that were apparently sidelined for maximizing profit were maximizing value for stakeholders (typically labor) or maximizing customer satisfaction.

    We might be going back in the direction of the latter two.

  36. Ancient Hacker FAIL: Open mouth after reading,... by leftie · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ...not before.

    Dumbass is quoting figures from the demonstration model.

    The Costners' tech scales. They just build bigger machines for higher sized loads.

  37. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Presumably the tarballs are solid. Can't they just use a mesh to pick them out before they go into the centrifuge?

    --
    No sig today...
  38. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Narcocide · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Yea, dispersants were a bad idea since the ultimate plan was to get all that lost oil back. Raise your hand if you saw that one coming.

  39. Well, actually by jmactacular · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Well actually, almost all receipts go to the studios and first dollar gross participants (James Cameron, Tom Cruise, etc...) for first run theatrical for the first several weeks. Movie theaters make most of their money on concessions, which is why they charge so much for a box of raisins.

  40. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Zinho · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Many things, valve included, have difficulty turning when stuff blows up and cuts off power and/or communication to the controls.

    There have been solutions to those problems for many years. The deep water blowout preventers required for North Sea operations have to automatically shut off unless a positive control signal is continuously applied. I work as an engineer in the oil field, and I'm amazed that the US hasn't already adopted many of the regulations already in place elsewhere. Equipment that will properly do the job already exists, we just need to make it unprofitable to not use it.

    --
    "Space Exploration is not endless circles in low earth orbit." -Buzz Aldrin
  41. Re:Recycling by ushering05401 · · Score: 2, Informative

    I vaguely recall that was the movie where mister fish mutant climbs aboard the bad guys ship to save the civilians and the little girl turns to the bad guy and says 'You're in trouble now.'

    Fish man then proceeds to run around at very land-lubbing average joe speed and off teh heavily armed baddies that suddenly cannot hit anything with their weapons.

    Problem 1: I don't know anyone that thought what that little kid said was neat or cool or funny, because it strained disbelief that an entire ship of pirates would have any logical reason to fear the gilled avenger based on what we had seen so far.

    Problem 2: The ultimate fight scene is one of the worst choreographed set pieces I have seen in a big budget movie because the same things that made the pirates scary (predatory behavior, weaponry) are suddenly and inexplicably useless against the protagonist without further explanation.

  42. Re:Maybe not the only one by SWPadnos · · Score: 4, Insightful

    There is no requirement that a corporation make money, or that if it does that the shareholders get paid any of the profits. There is no requirement that the board of directors be composed of shareholders at all, let alone those with large percentages of the voting shares.

    The board of directors and the officers have a fiduciary responsibility to the shareholders. This means that they must use the investment money responsibly, and should actually be trying to earn money for the company and the shareholders. The laws are basically there to prevent someone from starting a company, getting investment money, and then "losing" all of it due to poor decision making (paying themselves all of the investment money as a salary, for example).

    Even if there were a requirement to maximize profits, that is a vague phrase. Maximize over what time scale? A financial quarter? A year, a decade, a century ...? You can't spend any money on research if you're maximizing for the quarter, but it sure helps in the 10-100 year time frame. Spending money on clean-up technology is a bit like paying for insurance. Neither is a good investment until something bad happens.

    Of course none of this prevents shareholders from suing officers and directors, but that's not because they actually have a good reason to.

    --
    - The Sigless Wonder
  43. Re:Maybe not the only one by demonlapin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    You didn't. But you did say "some kind of government involvement is necessary", so it's important to remember that they fuck up too.

  44. Invested? by tomhath · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is it possible that in the years since the Exxon Valdez, that Kevin Costner is the only one who has invested money into the technology of oil spill cleanup?

    I'm certain the answer to that question is "No". Lot's of money has been invested. Smaller spills are quietly cleaned up. But this one was so big the politicians felt the need to get involved instead of letting the engineers who know what they're doing handle it. Of course, 'involved" mostly meant running around helplessly shouting "someone's going to pay for this".

    1. Re:Invested? by Klinky · · Score: 2, Informative

      Those fine engineers with their top hat, top kill and junkshot. BP engineers really had this one under control, only took them 91 days to get it to stop gushing. I am sure if the .gov wasn't running around holding BP responsible, the spill would have been stopped much more quickly. By magic or something.

    2. Re:Invested? by red+crab · · Score: 3, Informative

      An alternative technique of cleaning spill called "bioremediation" has been extensively researched by TERI in the past decade. Bioremediation involves harvesting a certain type of bacteria that feeds upon oil waste. A technique called "Oilzapper" involves four types of bacteria feeding simultaneously on four different layers of oil. More of this in an article in Times Of India.

  45. Re:Recycling by unitron · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Movie theaters make a pittance of a percentage of ticket sales the first week of a movie's run and, if there are subsequent weeks, it goes up a little each week, but that movie is going to have to run in that theater for a long, long time before the theater sees anything near 50% of ticket sales.

    Movie theaters are really popcorn stores, and the movie is a loss leader to get you in the door.

    --

    I see even classic Slashdot is now pretty much unusable on dial up anymore.

  46. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Miseph · · Score: 4, Interesting

    They already have to a large extent. The government didn't buy it, but if you check out the list of corporate names involved with Deepwater Horizon, you'll see a lot of corporations which are basically just fronts for BP.

    --
    Try not to take me more seriously than I take myself.
  47. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by FlyingBishop · · Score: 4, Informative

    Acoustic triggers are, by law, required on all offshore rigs in Norway and several other countries. Norway is, quite simply, the gold standard for sea drilling, and you have no idea what you are talking about.

  48. Re:Recycling by Minwee · · Score: 4, Funny

    Though much maligned, Waterworld did make a surprisingly decent profit in the end

    Wow. That would make it the only movie in Hollywood history to show a profit.

    That Costner is a genius!

  49. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by sonoronos · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The "real" problem with the centrifuges that Costner invested in is that they can't possibly flow enough water to put a dent in the Gulf Oil Spill. The IEEE article's calculation of the centrifuge's capacity assumes they're basically sticking a hose right on top of the oil spill, which is hardly realistic. Even assuming that the majority of the oil spilled is in the first 3 inches of water, a 1 mile by 1 mile area would need to have 50 million gallons filtered. 3 of the centrifuges could process 600,000 gallons per day, and so would take 83 days to complete a 1 mile x 1 mile x 3 inch deep volume of water. With an oil spill covering roughly 8,000 square miles, 700,000 days would be required. So under ideal conditions (all the oil was concentrated in one spot and easy to collect), it would take over 6000 centrifuges to process the "ideal spill" in one year. I think the centrifuges could be quite useful for filtering small, localized areas (protected wetlands, beaches, coves, etc), but the open ocean is just so massive that no device could effectively take care of it. In my opinion, a solution leveraging nature itself would be ideal.

  50. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I guess writing really clear laws that have no doubt as to their intent and then letting human beings sort out the nuances rather than trying to describe everything in the law perfectly would probably help.

    The idealistic notion you describe in the first part is exactly how laws started out. We ended up with the situation you describe in the second part because idealistic notions rarely, if ever, work in the real world.

  51. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Joce640k · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The whole thing is being treated as a PR exercise rather than a cleanup so this sort of thing is to be expected.

    Cleanup ships were available, booms were available, the problem should have been attacked with logistics and engineering. Instead we mostly got a lot of bickering over how many barrels a day were leaking out (was 2000, then 5000, now 50000...and still rising) and doing everything possible to stop people making estimates by banning photography and dumping as many dispersants as possible into the mix before it could surface. CYA at its finest.

    Dispersants don't make the oil disappear and are quite toxic in themselves so none of that solved anything, it just delayed it. We'll mostl likely be reading stories about new globs of pollution appearing in the gulf for decades to come.

    --
    No sig today...
  52. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by Al+Dimond · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Typically you guard against this by instituting a capitalization requirement, ensuring that companies involved in drilling have the money and/or the insurance necessary to pay likely claims in case of an accident. This is, in fact, practiced in the oil industry. As far as BP is concerned, it passes this test with flying colors. It has been and will be substantially hurt by the spill (its stock price has lost half its value and it's had to suspend dividend payments -- that's an indication of the magnitude, although I think the market has overreacted, I don't think BP's lost nearly half its value over this incident).

  53. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Hmmmmm? I would think that progress happens when the reasonable man finds better ways of adapting himself to the world. I suppose you could look at it either way though. Again, a witty phrase proves nothing,

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  54. Re:Maybe not the only one by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 5, Funny

    We might be going back in the direction of the latter two.

    I doubt it. If recent events in the business world have proven anything it's that modern companies exist to maximise the remuneration of management. Shareholders, stakeholders, customers and the existence of the company itself all come in second to making sure the executive officers get vast salaries, bonuses and exit packages.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  55. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by SpzToid · · Score: 5, Interesting

    They can when those tarballs are on the sand. Check out the machines from Beach-tech. These machines use mesh to 'sift', and do not 'rake'. Raking breaks up the tarballs undesirably.

    An interesting factoid is these machines work much better at night in the dark, because the colder temperature coagulates the tarballs better for easier removal.

    --
    You can't be ahead of the curve, if you're stuck in a loop.
  56. More than a BOP by twisteddk · · Score: 3, Informative

    The devices that are mandatory in most of europe (funnily the home of BP being one of the exceptions, presumably because of the much more shallow waters they're drilling in there), are a little bit more than just the blowout preventer, it's a device which can be triggered in case of emergencies where the wireguided signals from the rig is unable to reach the BOP. They were, as best I can tell, developed after a problem with a platform sinking, same as what happened in the gulf.

    Not being an engineer, I'm really at a loss to explain the difference between the BOP installed at BPs site and the ones that are generally being required by most other offshore oil producing countries. But from what the engineers explained to me, these remote controlled shutoff valves would have been able to stop the spill once the pipe had burst, assuming the blowout preventer ofcourse worked (which some people have questioned, since the installed "dead-mans-switch" didn't activate it).
    From what I understand, it may have been that such valves were not installed because of the expense of installing them when drilling at these depths, and a furhter combination of BP not being required to use them, and also questioning of their effectiveness at these depths.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704423504575212031417936798.html has some of the best graphics detailing the idea of the remote controlled switch. Again, the assumption being that the BOP is actually functioning. And from what I can understand, replacing or repairing a defective BOP IS possible.

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    --- To err is human... Am I more human than most ?
  57. Re:Maybe not the only one by pr0nbot · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I've no idea why this is moderated "Funny". It's what I perceive too -- directors run companies for their own benefit, all other considerations appear to be secondary.

  58. Re:Maybe not the only one by Ephemeriis · · Score: 4, Funny

    A corporation's only goal is to maximize profit.

    So, if a company was able to maximise profits by boiling live babies, you'd be in favour of that? You monster.

    Babies are tasty.

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  59. Re:Maybe not the only one by Ephemeriis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You didn't. But you did say "some kind of government involvement is necessary", so it's important to remember that they fuck up too.

    Obviously.

    Everybody fucks up.

    And if it was just a matter of oops, well sprung a leak that'd be one thing...

    But we've got evidence that they were having trouble for months before the actual blowout. And an argument that very morning about how best to seal things up for the switchover. And now we see that they've just been copying and pasting their emergency plan from one rig to the next, with no actual research into what it would take to deal with an emergency at any one particular location. And they very obviously didn't have a plan for how to deal with something like this, since they've been making it up as they go along.

    All of which indicates a fairly clear disregard for the possibility of something going wrong.

    Which isn't really surprising, considering that the Gulf of Mexico isn't really BP's problem. I mean, they're drilling there... But it isn't like that's their back yard. Or where they fish for a living. Or anything like that. BP can keep pumping oil in the middle of a polluted Gulf of Mexico. Or if they couldn't for some reason, they could just pick up and drill somewhere else.

    I mean, let's be completely honest here... I'm sure BP would like to get this well under control and start pumping that oil profitably again. But, in the absence of any fines or anything like that - do you honestly think they'd put any time/money/effort into cleaning this mess up?

    And that's why you need an organization bigger than BP that is concerned with the Gulf of Mexico, to make sure that something like this is taken care of.

    No, our government hasn't done a very good job with this.

    The regulatory agency that was supposed to make sure things like this didn't happen was in bed with the folks it was supposed to be regulating, and didn't do its job. Bureaucracy has gotten in the way at pretty much every step of the process. The whole thing has been completely politicized. The media has turned it into some kind of circus.

    But that doesn't mean we don't need somebody bigger than BP to make sure they don't just walk away from a disaster like this.

    What it means is that we need somebody bigger than BP, who actually does their job, to make sure they don't just walk away from a disaster like this.

    --
    "Work is the curse of the drinking classes." -Oscar Wilde
  60. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by garn1 · · Score: 3, Funny

    That is it! Throw Linguini at the oil spill! You, my friend, are a frikkin' genius!

  61. Re:3. Profit! 4. Fix the problem? by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    That's the same kind of misguided logic that makes people buy lottery tickets. Every day, millions of "visionary" inventors/pioneers/dreamers squander their time and savings on awful or/or unworkable ideas and dreams that fail miserably. But every blue moon one of them comes up with a good idea and succeeds. But no one does a news report on the millions who failed. Only the successes get publicized. This lionizes the inventor/pioneer/dreamer and creates the illusion that it's easier to succeed at such an endeavor than it actually is.

    For the vast majority of people, it's quite sensible to avoid being a wild-eyed dreamer. The more outlandish your dreams, the more likely it is that pursuing them would be the equivalent of blowing your money on lottery tickets. The more realistic your dreams (i.e., the less wild-eyed), the more likely others will be willing to join your work and invest in them, making it unnecessary to blow all your money and time in the first place.

    Telling people to "follow their dreams" is all well and good if their dreams aren't stupid. But the vast majority of dreams *are* stupid. Go to any high school in America and ask kids what they really dream about, and most of them will probably (if they're really being honest) answer something along the lines of "rap star," "rock star," "movie star," "sports star," etc. These kids would be much better off being "corporate drones" (as you so derisively put it) than wasting their lives trying to pursue those dreams, but people like you would have them go for it (to quote an old lottery advertising standard: "You can't win if you don't play!"). Thank god most people are sensible enough to be "corporate drones" or NOTHING would ever get done in this world.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  62. Re:Maybe not the only one by tibit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yet it is now held that this was a judicial mistake, and blindly citing it makes one look lame.

    --
    A successful API design takes a mixture of software design and pedagogy.
  63. Re:Maybe not the only one by Combatso · · Score: 2, Interesting

    but the disaster allows them to raise rates across the board, to recoup the loss of the payout. So without disaster, insurance would be cheap

  64. Re:Go Costner! Boo on BP! by RockDoctor · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Your volumetric estimates are not incorrect, just inappropriate.
    I read the article and envisaged this sort of machinery as being used to process the mix of oil and seawater collected by the various skimming options, so that the centrifuge discharges wet oily sludge (to be taken to shore for processing/ disposal) and large quantities of seawater which is much less contaminated with oil. Since the oil industry is already full of equipment for taking slightly oily water and cleaning it better (the UK requirement is to less than 50ppm / 0.005% v/v oil in water) prior to discharge over the side, then this is equipment possibly suitable for "front-ending" a spread of off-the-shelf hydrocyclones to process the spill debris.

    --
    Birds are not dinosaur descendants;birds are dinosaurs, for all useful meanings of "birds", "are" and "dinosaurs"