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Heat Ray Gun Fails Final Test; Nixed From War
eldavojohn writes "The heat ray gun to be deployed in Afghanistan has failed its final test and will not be deployed. US military commanders who have had it in the field now have declined to use it. After being tested more than 11,000 times on around 700 volunteers, it failed to achieve satisfaction from the military and will not be deployed."
I guess it didn't have enough settings - I'm sure they were looking for a 'Death Star' setting, for the truly pesky insurgents.
I want to delete my account but Slashdot doesn't allow it.
That we should have been investing in either freeze or death rays.
If each volunteer could withstand this thing 15 times it probably isn't doing its job.
"We were going for that District 9 weapon effect, but couldn't achieve it so this ray gun is scrapped for now."
Want to improve your Karma? Instead of "Post Anonymously", try the "Post Humously" option.
I for one, welcome our money spending, heat ray developing, yet strangely not "deploying" overlords.
They need to find whoever made that stupid decision and hit them with it. Then maybe they'll think it's effective. I mean seriously, when I first heard about this, I thought it's the PERFECT WEAPON! It still is. Someone has seriously got their head up their ass on this one.
Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
So does that mean they're bringing them home and will be using them domestically? /tinfoilhat
I'm kinda baffled why anyone in the military thought a heat ray pain gun would help them achieve satisfaction... but who am I to judge someone's kink?
The enemies of Democracy are
I'm sure these things will start showing up in U.S. police departments soon enough.
say it simply gave you an itchy feeling, no more
ok: then the military should have acted like it was an anthrax ray or something horribly nasty. and then let simple fear in the people it was pointed at do the rest of the work: "get the hell out of here, the americans have some scary new technology that causes your eyes to glow/ flesh to fall off in a month/ all your female relatives to lose their virginity!"
intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
The article was very light on details. Why was the weapon scrapped? Why was it never tested in a real world scenario as a non-lethal measure. The truth is that as much as the military is against non-lethal weapons, they can actually save lives on both sides and help in the winning of the war at the same time because you have less casualties which tend to cause the other side to galvanize against you.
RTFA. There's nothing in the linked story about it "failing" any test. What happened is that the military decided that no operational need for the weapon existed in Afghanistan.
The ADS does work for crowd control, but generally the military isn't dealing with crowds of rioting civilians attacking their outposts. They're dealing with insurgents fighting with guerilla tactics and IEDs. The ADS is the wrong tool for the job.
Was it not effective enough? Was it -too- effective? Did they decide that this 'non-harmful' weapon wasn't harmful enough? Was it too expensive to use/move?
I think I know what. They were pissed because they realized the very principle of the thing wouldn't heat their burritos any more evenly than their microwaves.
It didn't fail any tests at all, it was merely not deployed. I can think of multiple reasons not to deploy this. The biggest being that it is really only useful as crowd control during riots, and even then could be relatively easily taken out. There's also the fact that leaving enemies angry enough to shoot at you alive would seem to be a bad idea. Since the US military, the only people using the tech, would not have enough manpower to roundup all the people they used this against, all it would do is cause greater US casualties in the long run.
"get the hell out of here, the americans have some scary new technology that causes your eyes to glow/ flesh to fall off in a month/ all your female relatives to lose their virginity!"
What, they are going to introduce beer in large quantities?
Exactly, the article I read about this (not this one, too lazy to look for a link) said they were being redeployed to the US.
They'll look pretty kickass beside those sound cannons they've been using in the US and Canada
Why are you replying to a troll? Just to stay high on the comments page? Tsk, tsk...
The "popcorn" setting was ineffective ... everyone knows you cant have a war without popcorn!
I imagine that would work against "winning hearts and minds" and probably add to the "the USA hates us all, kill them."
"US 'heat ray' gun fails final test"
This morning, when I read this article and submitted it to Slashdot, that was the title. The words "fails final test" were all over the article. Unfortunately Google doesn't seem to offer a cache for it but those words are all over.
The summary isn't wrong, it's just that the BBC changed their story. In the original version the final test was actually putting it to use in Afghanistan. And the US Military Leaders decided ADS doesn't work in that war scenario.
The ADS is the wrong tool for the job.
So if you use the wrong tool for the job and it doesn't work wouldn't you call that failing?
My work here is dung.
Ultimately, upgrading your units to use the heat ray is not worth the points cost. Despite the superior strength and AP, you need to be within 12 inches to use it. This is assault range, and at most you are going to get one round of shooting before your opponent closes in. There's an excellent chance you will not get to use it except with bike mounted troops.
The heat ray is ultimately a weapon of opportunity, and you would be better off with the plasma gun for 5 more points. It's rapid fire and gives you a couple good rounds of shooting. Another alternative is a combi-gun with a melta attachment, for all intents and purposes you are going to get to use it the same number of times in a game. Even a standard rapid fire rifle is going to result in more shots against infantry, and the probability of a hit...
oh wait...
this isn't a conversation about 40k, and we are not talking about fantasy SF weapons that don't work. We are talking about real world fantasy weapons that don't work. My mistake!
M
what the hell are they going to do with all those sharks?
the preceding post was not spell checked... suck it.
That's 15.7 times each. Being shot with that thing must feel awesome. You'd think the military would have caught on once the volunteers started queueing up for the fifth or sixth time.
700 volunteers, used 11,000 times.... that's 16 times per volunteer. I kind of wish the police used this instead of tasers. Maybe they should change the name from heat gun to tickle gun.
The Admin and the Engineer
My physics PhD ex told me about one of her professors. In the 1950's in Nevada, he was working on DoD projects concerning radar. Well, it gets awful cold in the desert at night, and it's still awful cold in the morning. So my ex's professor and the rest of the crew would stand in front of the RADAR set and let the microwaves warm them up.
...having read what waterboarding is, I can't see any tool being rejected for being too inhumane.
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Not all is lost, the business of government raked at least a few easy million through the military-industrial complex from this investment. A million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about an industry measured in billions.
Oops, you're not part of the military-industrial complex? You lose, so that they may win.
To strategic locations across the US to keep Burger King whoppers warm while awaiting to be sold to customers.
The cold ray failed as well.... It seems the troops were firing it at themselves to keep comfortable and keeping beverages cold instead of fighting evil...
Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
My money's on the Maker / DIY crowd! Hopefully, it works better than the Arduino powered Bedazzler.
Bullets are more reliable, effective, and cheaper.
I don't think distance was the deal beaker. The vehicle based one I saw the other night on Discover/NatGeo/Science (I forgot which one) works at quite a distance up to several hundred meters (yards). But it does require a big vehicle with a large flat rotating vertical antenna and a good sized generator to reach that range. That makes it kind of hard to deploy in places like Afghanistan where the terrain can be very rough and enemies are hiding (someone has to be in the open for it to work). I also would wonder if rain/snow/dust would attenuate the beam or spread it reducing effectiveness. I could see a police department finding a use for controlling an unruly crowd but I can't see them being able to find the several millions needed to buy one.. Until it can be made man-portable or on something smaller (like a HUMVEE ) can be fired up quick and doesn't have a huge antenna it's just an interesting toy for the military.
A euphemism for "test subjects caught fire".
Comment removed based on user account deletion
I was thinking of this heat ray the other day when watching previous for that stupid show Whale Wars. Put them on the whaling ships as a non-lethal, extended range, deterrent to keep people from approaching the boats.
I came to the datacenter drunk with a fake ID, don't you want to be just like me?
The truth is that as much as the military is against non-lethal weapons, they can actually save lives on both sides and help in the winning of the war at the same time because you have less casualties which tend to cause the other side to galvanize against you.
Not really.
The truth is "conditioning" pisses people off. Useless missions to touch the edge, raze some troops for non-tactical entertainment, and run off are a good way to show the enemy that we're completely evil and have no respect for life. Defending our borders and encampments is fine; but dipping into enemy lines just to do some damage and run is not.
Unfortunately, any useful military strategy involves penetration. While defending our encampments has obvious tactical advantages, those encampments are worthless if they don't support military motion. Thus, our military is of the predisposition to advance through enemy resistance onto a target.
In any non-lethal strategy, we have problems. If the enemy is allowed to retreat, they will increase resistance further ahead: the 500 troops facing us at the next battle become 1000 troops. If the enemy is left for dead, they trap our troops in a pincer maneuver: the enemy troops immediately behind us don't have to mobilize for interception far ahead, and can prevent our retreat and attack from behind when we encounter more resistance. Alternately, we can take prisoners of war; this is a lot of prisoners to deal with though, quickly mounting to several times the number of active troops.
Thus, the only viable military strategy to win a war is to advance through enemy resistance, inactivating troops we encounter-- that is, killing them or butchering them to uselessness (remove limbs). For those being invaded, a repelling defense eventually wears out the political atmosphere and economics of the invader; but a decapitation exercise is a better strategy for either side. In either case, lethal force is necessary: invaders that don't die will continue to attack until you die for quite a while, without eroding the political atmosphere anywhere near as quickly as casualties.
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The final test by the military is to see if it can properly assist in the making of smores. They hoped it would do better than just mildly tingle and warm the marshmallow, but were saddened.
it's obvious the unit they used did not have enough settings. what they need is the Ronco Model 2108 SUX. Unlike the model they have now that only goes up to 10, the Ronco unit goes all the way up to 12. With the Ronco unit, they can roast the insurgents to a nice golden brown, ready to serve, in shorter time while retaining the moisture keeping them juicy and tender...
I don't think that's quite right.
Severely burning enemy soldiers with a "heat ray", while great from the standpoint of taxing the enemy infrastructure to care for the wounded, probably won't endear the other side towards you more than killing their troops outright. And it could galvanize them even more.
IIRC there are a number of non-lethal chemical weapons that have the same effect.
Now if we're talking about stun guns or some other weapon that doesn't maim the enemy soldiers, it's a different story.
to burst into flames at long range.
Hence useless.
American beer? That is evil. If you are going to introduce them to beer, at least make it a good beer. :)
Or how about beer with alcohol in it. Introducing the native Americans to alcohol worked out pretty well, for the Europeans.
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
Keep in mind that the diesel fuel to run that generator costs around $400/gallon when you take all the supply chain costs into account.
It seems like today is a very light on details day. Everyone is probably busy combing over wiki leaks for potential stories.
As for the weapon, I don't think it has any effectiveness in the situation. It has limited range and its difficult to verify its effectiveness. Most of the time soldiers see potential threats momentarily in the distance. A weapon like this is pretty useless I think. Machines are not going to win any hearts and minds.
This isn't an ordinary war. It's a house-to-house search for malefactors. Or at least it should be. Clear an area, leave a presence to prevent it from being taken again and to cap anything that was hiding, then move your main force on to the next one. Tile the country with your wins, and the war ends.
Unless in the process you turn good guys in your pwned sectors into bad guys by acting like the bad guys they once helped you exterminate.
Regardless, in the process you don't allow yourself at any time to fall victim to medieval tactics like pincer moves. Unless you're a stupid cunt.
How else will poor little struggling Raytheon recoup their losses? They'll no doubt also create a model that incorparates a ticket cam.
They should've went with a better name than the "CharNoble".
the targets/victims kept falling on their buttered side.
September 2011: Looking for Cocoa/iOS work in Boston area Cocoa Programmer Quincy, MA
At what point do you respond "Yes" when asked, "Hey, Do you want to volunteer to be shot with a top-secret weapon? We call it the Heat Ray Gun."
I mean, I'd volunteer to be shot with a stun-gun...but only once, and only if highly intoxicated. But a heat ray gun? No thanks.
I know, I know, CO2 laser is not even remotely like a microwave weapon, but it should be useful for other purposes.
You don't need fancy multi-millon Dollar gadgets to make people run away. A loudspeaker with a few tracks from say Britney Spears, Lady Gaga, Beyonce and Katy Perry, will do far more damage.
Take Nobody's Word For It.
You sir, need to start sampling beer from the Pacific Northwest. There's none better on earth.
Still cheaper than Sasha. It costs $400,000 to fire that weapon, for twelve seconds...
"Hey, there's that thing, and it's less than 500m away! Shoot at it!"
(-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
This isn't an ordinary war. It's a house-to-house search for malefactors. Or at least it should be. Clear an area, leave a presence to prevent it from being taken again and to cap anything that was hiding, then move your main force on to the next one.
I would utterly destroy you if you attempted that shit in my neighborhood. Absolutely. Destroy. The term "invasion" is apt in every possible way here.
Medieval tactics are inferior to modern tactics in the same way that Unix is inferior to modern OSes like Windows. We may be more comfortable with "modern" things, but that doesn't make them better, or make the old things any less useful.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
..um which 7/10 of a person was injured? Seriously though, deployment of this is really stupid. I suspect if any REAL testing were properly done they would find that these levels of mmWave energy attack the eyes first and despite the shallow penetration of ~200GHz power, tissue damage will occur in 100% of 'test subjects' after some level of exposure.
all your female relatives to lose their virginity!"
Anonymous Coward already has this technology; it just has to be deployed in person.
The article was very light on details. Why was the weapon scrapped? Why was it never tested in a real world scenario as a non-lethal measure. The truth is that as much as the military is against non-lethal weapons, they can actually save lives on both sides and help in the winning of the war at the same time because you have less casualties which tend to cause the other side to galvanize against you.
This was not meant to be used against the enemy or anyone else on the "other side". This was intended as a non-lethal crowd control measure.
Shooting into a crowd is bad press and will certainly galvanize a population against you, making them enemies. This "heat ray" eliminates the news story about the 10-yr-old kid who was shot in the head by a ricochet bullet (reported as intentional genocide by the press) with his crying mother screaming over his lifeless body.
So when the angry crowds form over the aid tent that was accidentally bombed, you have three options:
1) Fired into the crowd, dispersing them, but causing more crowds to form all over the world.
2) Hold you position and get torn to little pieces by the angry crowd or the actual enemy who is dispersed among the crowd, encouraging them.
3) Run, encouraging the enemy to stage protests at other strategic locations.
I prefer option four:
4) Utilize something like this heat ray and disperse the crowd in a harmless fashion until the local political leaders get control of the situation.
There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
It didnt turn out that well. It ended turning them into Americans.
Wow. I don't know how you could possibly be more ignorant. Even a cusory reading of the article would tell you that this weapon causes no permanent damage or even lasting pain.
I would utterly destroy you if you attempted that shit in my neighborhood. Absolutely. Destroy.
Yeah, I'm sure you're trained and equipped to handle a military force huh?
They're trying to find hostiles hidden among friendlies. Some of those friendlies are for that, some aren't. It's an awkward situation, and awkward weapons like the ones in the article are the military grasping for ways to do this crap better.
Eh, any local microbrewery is about the same. Most have high quality.
I spent my honeymoon in the Pac NW, but I've had better beers back at home (and I've had worse ones).
Don't get me wrong, some were worthy of note and I wrote them down, and sometimes I even crave them and wish I could be back there right now, but I do that for local microbrews as well. It probably isn't necessarily indicative of area, just smaller batches and far more interest in making something taste good than something that tastes consistent (which is, according to Budweiser, the only things they really care about - a consistent taste, year after year after year. You'd think someone would tell them "hey, consistency only matters if you start with something that is *good*, being consistently bad isn't anything to aspire to!")
You could just equip all troops with StimPacks that way they can move as quickly as bike mounted troops but without too high of an upgrading cost...
...Sorry starcraft 2 came out today...
*whoosh*
It was a joke. He even spelled it out at the end.
Wow. I don't know how you could possibly be more ignorant. Even a cusory reading of the article would tell you that this weapon causes no permanent damage or even lasting pain.
That must be the reason it was scrapped!
Charles Addams, I think. Guy is in the Patent Office. Patent clerk is leaning out the window, pointing a device at the street: "Death Ray, poppycock! It doesn't even slow them up!"
Right on, I'm from the east coast & my quaffing experience has vastly improved since coming to the left coast. But in my experience the goodness is not limited to the PNW - CA has some very good breweries too. Lagunitas, Anderson Valley, Stone, Lost Coast. There's something about the hops I think. Mmmm Lost Coast Indica IPA. But yes, our mugs runneth over with primo brew in WA/OR.
The man who dies rich dies disgraced. -- Andrew Carnegie
At least we can keep our veggies warm in the early spring.
You believe the war in Afghanistan is like a game of Risk?
There might be a little more to it than that.
You are welcome on my lawn.
Seattle is still the favorite city I've lived in, but the claims about PNW microbrews -- or CA ones -- are distinctly overblown. For some reason, most brewers there are obsessed with hops and distinctly unconcerned with good flavor. It's the hops analog of "bigger is better." I now live next to what may be the best beer store I've ever seen and I usually head straight to the European and Russian side; I'm more tempted by a particular brand coming from Illinois than anything I left behind on the West Coast.
"OW! MY SPERM!"
I've had serious questions about potential issues with this system since I first heard about it.
"It only penetrates the skin the equivalent of 3 sheets of paper thickness..." So what, your eye is very vulnerable to microwaves, and it's going to be directly exposed. That depth can still do serious damage to your eyes.
"It's been tested numerous times on military and journalist volunteers..." Again, so fricking what! You are talking about a limited quantity of people in an area where movement isn't confined with people who know what's going to happen and from where. Just try that on any average mob of people anywhere in the world in normal real world conditions, and you are going to have a huge mess on your hands! They won't clear the target area efficiently, if they can even figure out where/why it's happening. It won't be even vaguely orderly, people will go different directions, collide, get pushed down or fall down, even get trampled. If panic ensues, a likely occurrence for those unfamiliar with this new weapon, you'll probably even have people moving into the target area since they are in a general panic and are UNABLE TO SEE WHAT IS TARGETED! It's well know to those that study these things, areas that are visibly marked are far more effective in keeping people out than any invisible system.
From the situations I mentioned in the previous paragraph, the weapon proponents entire claim that no serious damage will result since nobody will be exposed more than a few seconds is either utter incompetence, complete misunderstanding of even the most basic of human mob reactions, or they are lying through the teeth to make mint on new weapon system. I know which one I'm voting for.
I would utterly destroy you if you attempted that shit in my neighborhood. Absolutely. Destroy.
I doubt that. You'd have to have numbers, or infinite luck.
The bad guys aren't numerous in most areas, and in most areas the good guys are all too willing to help me out. It's not terribly easy to root out small numbers of them from large populations, but it's doable.
In areas where bad guys are numerous, we switch from house to house picking and choosing to clearing the entire area. This is where war gets messy, but that's why it's war and not something we do for fun on weekends in the Hamptons.
If I bring force and stick to my plan of clearing an area and doing it righteously and keeping it clear, I win. This, on the other hand, is #fail: Insurgents bully bakeries in Marjah, Afghanistan Those guys should be dead, not hassling naan-flippers, or the story should be "U.S. Forces Kill Taliban Thugs Who Harassed Marjah Merchants". Petraeus needs to recognize this and fix what McChrystal didn't.
Medieval tactics are inferior to modern tactics in the same way that Unix is inferior to modern OSes like Windows.
That's cute, but it's wrong. I use both Unix and Windows, precisely because I know their where not to use either of them. Military tactics can be nullified by military strategy, so knowing when not to allow a tactic to come into play means it's me FTW. Like I said. If you're vulnerable to well-studied medieval tactics -- or worse, you're trying to use them on someone who's been through a war college and a few campaigns, then you're a stupid cunt, and he's an even stupider cunt if you succeed.
Or how about beer with alcohol in it. Introducing the native Americans to alcohol worked out pretty well, for the Europeans. :)
Well, how about trying their pipe then... I'm sure opium is pretty common around there... I'm sure that'll work out pretty well for the Taliban, they're already stoned... :)
stop time.
Katy Perry herself has the opposite effect.
If you're conducting a house-to-house search for malefactors, GET OUT OF THAT WAR. That should be a domestic problem to be handled by local authorities (with assistance if necessary, but it shouldn't be). If the population is harboring the resistance, that means you do not have popular support of the local population. If you do not have support of the local population in a war zone, you are the bad guys.
This is Afghanistan we're talking about here. They're a bit of a mess to begin with. We can give the locals the tools to build their society with (education, experience, seed funding), but we can't make them shape their society in the way that we choose.
And for god's sake stop giving guns to Israel. The promise of sweeping in and stomping North Korea if they invade the south has been a sufficient deterrent for years. Israel is seen as the spoiled brat invader of the middle east, and for good reason. We'd achieve our same objectives in the region, with far less hatred from the locals, if we just promised to defend Israel instead of giving them the helicopters that they kill Palestinians with. Everyone comes out of that conflict smelling like ass, and by sticking our nose into it we're just feeding the hatred.
I have relatives on the east side of the middle east, who are shocked how little Americans realize that Israel is a big part of the anti-American hatred. It's not the jewishness, or the western-ness. But the behavior of Israel as a government interacting with their neighbors, their invasions, their annexations of territory, suppressions of the Palestines, etc. Our goals for winning hearts and minds, and therefore getting out of the middle east faster with less likely of further terrorist attacks against the US, would be much better served by cutting all military and other aid to Israel, and simply promising military support in cases of an unprovoked attack against Israeli soil.
The ______ Agenda
In my humble opinion, if you have developed a weapon that 700 people are willing to volunteer to be shot by it, you have already failed.
I read Heart Ray Gun Fails.
How sad
There sees you what I did.
Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
"Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
now you got me thinking how the Taliban would react to being hit with that...
Sorry, Malik, I'm all out of my hot man chowder... fucking Americans drained me, heh heh... Maybe Achmed over there has some for ya
Say it right: "Nuc-le-ah Powah".
I think the same thought processes went into Hiroshima/Nagasaki. Sure you killed a couple hundred thousand people, but the alternative would be the deaths of millions on both sides.
Non-lethal weapons sounds good on paper, but they don't make an enemy go, "Ouch! You won, but you didn't kill me, thank you!" and it doesn't make others who would fight you as well thank you for saving their friends, either. It allows them the opportunity to get revenge. Dead people don't get vengeance. It is sad, but I think if you really think about it, that is the way it is. Reduced fatalities through applied lethal force. Sounds really contradictory, but it's true.
ad astra per alia porci
Start with something like 30 cents per round for (let's say) 5.56x45mm NATO ammo for all the M16's, inflate by 3 times for Government purchasing contract inefficiency, inflate again by 3 more times for Government purchasing contracts which include spec requirements beyond what we see in civilian supplies, pretty soon we're talking about something like $10,000 just in ammo cost alone for each badguy casualty.
Then consider .50 cal sniper ammo, which already starts at $3-$5/round for civvies...
Say it right: "Nuc-le-ah Powah".
Ok, you are going to use a "heat ray" on a bunch of brain fried wackos who hop around the desert and outlaw kite flying...
This is about as effective as the ice cube repeating rifle as a weapon of war against the swarming hordes of Eskimos.
We would have had much better luck with bacon bombs and hacky-sacks emblazoned with the face of Muhammad.
Tisha Hayes
In yet another wikileaks exclusive, the real reason the ADS got recalled is because it sustained major damage from a single "stray" AK-47 round, requiring state-side repairs.
Seriously even with the name who would want to be the first to die by the Death Ray.
by TheSpoom (715771) Uncaring Linux user here. I have nothing to add to this but please continue. *munches popcorn*
And the comfy chair!
We need a Sex Change Ray with a setting for Immediate Menstruation.
We can call it the Burqanizer.
"Where's the kaboom? There was supposed to be an earth-shattering kaboom!"
Wars very rarely result in a large percentage of combatants being killed or maimed. Successfully prosecuting a war involves removing your opponent's ability to fight, primarily through capturing or destroying his economic and industrial capability, rather than killing all his troops.
Nonlethal weapons are not particularly useful for a military force because they're short range, finicky, unreliable and have very little psychological impact.
Put your hand in the box.
No, the reason it was scrapped was because they knew what could happen if they use this weapon on a certain kind of person, like an unrealized kwisatz haderach.
You obviously don't understand a thing and just decided to butt in to make your stupid anti-zionist rant. Let's point out why people should ignore you, shall we?
Afghanistan, like many Mideastern countries is blessed with neither a homogeneous population, nor a long history of belief in the rule of law. Add to that its society's fierce tribal bonds and your suggestion that Afghani forces can easily handle anti-insurgent operations on their own is clearly idiotic.
Your understanding of Israel is also deeply flawed, not only in the baseless accusations, but because Israel has never, and likely will never "do as America commands". It has its own interests at heart, and it cannot be swayed from the conviction to maintain a safe haven for the Jewish people. Israel has beaten back the Arabs during a US embargo before with far less capacity than it has now (it was behind Arabs in both technology and quantity back then, where today it far surpasses them), so stopping aid won't have an effect for a very long time. What we need less of is the anti-semitic rhetoric used by Palestinian terror organizations and people like yourself who parrot their hateful propaganda and make Israel doubt Palestinians could handle running their own state.
was this comment posted via time tunnel from the 1980's? american beer has been kicking ass for a while now.
check out dogfish head or one of the thousands of other microbrews that are beginning to take over shelf and tap space from the bud/coors hegemony.
You believe the war in Afghanistan is like a game of Risk?
There might be a little more to it than that.
I look at the map, I see Afghanistan to one side, Iraq to the other, and the most talked about "country we should do something about, wink wink" right in between, and I think it hasn't been invaded yet because the US rolled a lot of ones in Afghanistan.
You can't take the sky from me...
how little Americans realize that Israel is a big part of the anti-American hatred. It's not the jewishness, or the western-ness. But the behavior of Israel as a government interacting with their neighbors, their invasions, their annexations of territory, suppressions of the Palestines, etc.
Oh yeah? Well: "Antisemite!" Ah! Totally destroyed your argument.
You can't take the sky from me...
it worked just fine, it's just going to remain a black project and will be used covertly whenever they damn wish.
How many soldiers have you calculated that it would take to "Tile the country with your wins"?
You've obviously got zero experience in these matters. Please stop speaking out of your anus.
Moreover, it was a joke in response to the original joke of MOAR DAKKA. People missed that at so many levels.
I decry the general decline of true geekishness on Slashdot. The fact that only a few people got a rules reference to a tabletop game saddens me.
M
But did the device "flush out" people? From my perspective, a target, standing up and running away is easier to deal with than a target behind a rock with a Smack Light on me. Personally, "dealing with", does not mean letting the enemy run away.
But one question does keep bubbling up, "given that the device was only tested 11,000 times; did anyone check to see if it was plugged in? We are talking about the Military.
Or sterilize the males/females.
Family is really big in most parts of the world, most people won't risk loosing the ability to have lots of children to take care of them when they get old.
Medieval tactics are inferior to modern tactics in the same way that Unix is inferior to modern OSes like Windows. We may be more comfortable with "modern" things, but that doesn't make them better, or make the old things any less useful.
Absolutely, which is why I keep a loaded catapult for personal defense against anyone who crosses my moat. People may think me old fashioned, but flinging cauldrons of boiling oil is never not useful.
M
They already have tear gas, water cannons and rubber bullets ... which can inflict a lot of damage too of course, but still they are not without existing semi non-lethal crowd control weapons.
Water canons and tear gas also have the advantage of visual intimidation ... if the heat gun looked like a giant laser beam swooping through the air it would probably be more effective, unfortunately not physically possible.
The Afghanistan offensive into Taliban territory was won by local forces with US air support. They did not need US army on the ground in any significant quantity to win. So why do all of the sudden people think adding more infantry will make it better?
"Don't heat me, bro!"
The article was very light on details. Why was the weapon scrapped? Why was it never tested in a real world scenario as a non-lethal measure.
I heard it gave some dude superpowers, but unfortunately he was a villainous sort and now the US has an actual supervillain to deal with; he is currently moving into a volcano as we speak.
It's true, it's all in those leaked docs; really go check.
Admit nothing. Deny Everything. Make Counter-accusations.
There's an excellent chance you will not get to use it except with bike mounted troops.
For some reason, I immediately thought of bicycle troops, and thought that was the dumbest idea I had ever heard of.
Then I realized you were talking about 40k, and pictured a space marine on a bicycle, and it was good.
Nice Dune reference.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dfaXt1rC2G0
Laundry day
See you there
Underthings
Tumbling
Want to say
Love your hair
Here I go
Mumbling
With my freeze ray
I will stop the world
With my freeze ray
I will find the time to
Find the words to
Tell you how
How you make
Make me feel
What's the phrase?
Like a fool
Kind of sick
Special needs
Anyways
With my freezeray
I will stop the pain
It's not a death ray or an icebeam
That's all Johnny Snow
I just think you need time to know
That I'm the guy to make it real
The feelings you don't dare to feel
I'll bend the world to our will
And we'll make time stand still
That's the plan
Rule the world
You and me
Anyday
Love your hair
("What?")
"No I . . I, uh . . . love the . . . air"
Anyway
With my freeze ray I will stop -
The bad guys aren't numerous in most areas
If you start conducting house-to-house searches, the number of bad guys will probably multiply, due to resentment. Especially in the grandparent's neighborhood, which I assume to be somewhere in the Western world, were personal privacy and property rights are held sacrosanct. If you generate enough animosity in your methods, even the non-participating members of the community will be willing to shelter your opponents. Guerrillas who can make an attack and then immediately disappear into the native population are very effective. I'd say you probably would get your ass kicked in the grandparent's neighborhood. Especially if house-to-house searches were conducted with heat guns, sonic weapons, tasers, or other forms of pisses-you-off-but-doesn't-kill-you weaponry.
That said, the OPs analysis of tactics is inappropriate to this sort of engagement as well. Which is why the armies in this sort of campaign are bogged down so much. There are no real military tactics for ending the "war" - it's not a valid military goal. It's a political-social one, and trying to apply a military solution to a political problem is akin to using a technological solution to fix a social problem. It tends not to work, and often exacerbates the problem.
Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't an invisible demon about to eat your face
"This is assault range, and "
BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD!
I have relatives on the east side of the middle east, who are shocked how little Americans realize that Israel is a big part of the anti-American hatred.
Oh, we realize it, all right. But considering all of our politicians are beholden to Jewish money, the Jewish media and Jewish lobbying groups (AIPAC), there really isn't a damn thing we can do about it.
Don't confuse the wishes of the government with the wishes of the people.
Help! Help! I've been moded down by a Jewish conspiracy!
Ah the old if you disagree with Irael you are anti-semetic. That might of worked for a long time but no more.
No one does hateful propaganda like Israel. They are always going on aout rocket attacks that rarely kill anyone, but nvere metion that hey kill tohusands of civilians with US suppied rockets.
The world is finally waking up to the apartheid neture of Israel, and your tactics are now failing.
"I doubt that. You'd have to have numbers, or infinite luck."
Wrong. Learn about Asymmetrical warfare sometime. 13 British soldiers against THOUSANDS of African warriors.
Come back when you've finished with your history lesson.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
"You sir, need to start sampling beer from the Pacific Northwest. There's none better on earth."
Your beers don't have a THC content. Ours do here in California, and you buy them at the dispensaries.
Top that.
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
So I see you've stopped beating off to your semen encrusted copy of Mein Kampf long enough to come out of your cave and say something stupid. God, you're not even very good at being a troll are you? You do know you're supposed to AC for this sort of shit, right retard?
In case you aren't, you've just tried to critique a concise, insightful summary of what's wrong with Israeli policy (and US) with a bunch of meaningless fluff.
Please, allow me to give you some _real_ anti-Zionist sentiment. Fuck Israel! Fuck those shit-for-brains hardcore fundamentalist asswipes who are still stealing land, shooting protesters, starving children, and crying in public "poor us, poor us." I'm gonna Godwin-by-proxy, but you-know-who with the armbands and the 'stache was a long fucking time ago - there's a lotta dead Palestinians on the roadside leading from now to way back when - that old check has been cashed, spent, shredded, and long forgotten.
So fuck you. Fuck Israel. Fuck sending them money. Fuck sending them military hardware. Fuck backing them at all. Any Arabs wanna invade? Fucking go for it! Not our problem, any more than whenever any random shithole country Alpha invades another random shithole country Zeta. Who gives a fuck? Really?
You know who does deserve our backing? Canada! Heck of a place. Damn decent country. Hardly ever invades anyone. If they do, you know they're gonna say sorry. Not perfect, but who is? We could learn something from them. Like manners.
But Israel? Not so much. Israel, not so friendly. Awfully self-righteous. Smug. Sanctimonious. They don't deserve to be wiped off the map, but still, helping them beat up their snot-nosed neighbors isn't really doing anything for our own interests. Let's bring back Realpolitik, at least it made sense of a sort...
-- How I want a drink, alcoholic of course, after the heavy lectures involving quantum mechanics.
The post I responded to was a rant written by an ignorant person who thinks they understand war because they watch the news, and who started on topic and veered off very quickly to introduce their personal agenda into the discussion. Yours was just a lot of nonsense mixed into a wall of f-bombs.
If you ever want to have a real discussion, pick up a few history books, then a dictionary, and come back to sit at the adult table.
You and other morons paint a distorted picture where the US only gives and gives and gives to Israel without getting anything in return. America has big interests in Israel- it's not just the nonsense you hear about from idiots on the Internet (AIPAC money, needing a democracy in the mideast, zionists ruling "amerika", etc.). At the same time it's crucial to remember that the Arabs are NOT our friends, or even each others'- they can't agree on anything other than their common hatred for Israel.
It may play a roll in crowd dispersion, but its primary purpose is actually in self-defense. A scenario like the one in the movie "Blackhawk Down" is a good example. If you have to secure an urban area and their are numerous buildings from which enemies could fire on you, then you would point these at the buildings creating cones in which any potential attacks would be suppressed. If someone tried to fire on you from a window and you had the face of the building in the code, then it is unlikely that they would even be able to get a shot fired.
Guys, I live in BC. The home of good pot.
And I know all about micro brews. If you ever see it try any beer from Dead Frog Breweries. (Yummy!!!)
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
Anti-anti rant follows:
Oh yes, the famous Israeli genocide against Palestine people. They are killing innocents in scores, destroying whole generations, leaving nothing but burned houses and mutilated corpses in their wake...
Hold on, the Palestinian population has quadrupled in the last few decades?! Now a genocide should be about *decreasing* the population, someone in the Israeli government has clearly got it wrong. What is it they are shooting Palestinians with? Semen-enriched munition?
OK, I get it, it is the economical blockade which lets Palestinian people starve (but still breed and multiply their numbers) and live their lives in poverty and misery. One problem -- according to UN report, the standards of living in Palestine are higher than in Libya, Syria or even Egypt! Do note that there are no Israeli in said countries to oppress local population...
To summarize -- the Palestinians fight against so-called genocide which lets them breed as rabbits, against relative wealth they have from Israel and international help.
They have no industries to speak of, no economy, the biggest employee in Palestine is their corrupt government, tossing political opponents out of windows (or just shooting them) is politics as usual there. Oh, and *every* Arab country with Palestinian refuge camps was forced to conducted military actions against these camp's inhabitants at least once.
What d'ya say folks, should the international community help them even more? I see no reason to say no, they all seem nice fellas...
America has big interests in Israel
I read your link. What are these "big interests"? It starts out by saying we need Israel's help to stop Iran from getting nukes. Oh, is that why we've been supporting them all these decades?
it's not just the nonsense you hear about from idiots on the Internet (AIPAC money, needing a democracy in the mideast, zionists ruling "amerika", etc.)
Actually it does mention the democracy angle. It also says how America traditionally has believed in a homeland for Jews, going back to John Adams. The Jewish lobby is also strong in America. Is America "run by Jews". No, but they have a significant sway.
"Guys, I live in BC. The home of good pot."
Please explain why you haven't had a Cannabis Cup when California has already had two, then?
Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
I thought lasguns were the equivalent of the heatgun. They have a moderate warming effect on the target. Apart from that they are completely ineffectual.
America has big interests in Israel
I read your link. What are these "big interests"? It starts out by saying we need Israel's help to stop Iran from getting nukes. Oh, is that why we've been supporting them all these decades?
"Starts out"? That's your counterargument? If you actually "read my link" you would have seen a short list of many technologies the US has been supplied by Israel. Cooperating with Iran is just one example of the potential benefits for which America maintains a strong relationship with Israel. The reason for long-term support is fostering the potential, not just specific partnerships. Of course one needs to be a strategic thinker to understand these things, and you've demonstrated a weakness in that area.
it's not just the nonsense you hear about ... (AIPAC money, needing a democracy in the mideast
Actually it does mention the democracy angle.
Note my use of the word "just". I didn't say there is no basis in truth used for these examples of anti-zionist propaganda, just that none of them have anywhere near the importance ascribed to them. Sorry your silly arguments don't work on me, but you're not dealing with your usual mindless partisan opponent.
I dont think you can count beers NOBODY has even heard of, has the average *American* heard of "dogfish head"? I asked friends in Florida and Texas over Skype, they were equally clueless.
Outside of these "microbrews" all the hipsters are into, the international view is that USA beers are as crap as USA cars. Sure, theres the Tesla Roadster, but thats a one off!
You do note the part about having family in the region? I have friends over multiple borders there. Some are wearing uniforms.
Israel remains locked in an ugly conflict with others in the region. Occupying territory from three neighbor states since the six-day war 43 years ago hasn't helped their case. Invading Lebanon in 2006, the sanctions against Palestine, assassinations with civilian casualties, etc...
Israel is fighting a very dirty conflict, in a very dirty way. That's their choice to make. But that doesn't mean we need to support that choice. And that doesn't mean not supporting that choice means supporting Hamas. Hamas's transgressions are terrible, and they need to be rooted out and stopped. But Israel is a government, not a terrorist group, and needs to be held to higher standards. Unless they're being directly invaded, let Israel deal with their problems.
Again, the refrain I hear over and over again from people in the region is that America is hated not because people hate freedom or democracy or bald eagles. But because people feel like this particularly hated state is being propped up by us. That hatred and lack of trust in us made keeping the peace in Iraq far harder than winning the war. It has made Afghanistan a quagmire. And it makes our apparent role as world police much more difficult.
We are not going to get out of Afghanistan when we kill enough bad guys. We're going to get out of Afghanistan when we convince the population that we're maintaining peace for their sake. We're going to be able to leave Afghanistan only when the population trusts us. We're pouring lives and people's souls into the region. We need to start addressing root causes, and two big causes are the perception of Israel in the middle east, and the perception of our support of Israel. Those are not the most pressing issue for our boys on the ground, but they're huge issues that we can't even talk about in this country without being shut down as racist.
I am not anti-Zionist. I just don't want to see any more of our people come back from the middle east broken.
The ______ Agenda
I think you underestimate how many houses you're talking about clearing. These aren't little villages of 100 houses. There are 28,000,000 people in Afghanistan, Kabul, the capitol has only 10% of that. Can you fathom how many houses you have to clear to root out all the bad guys? While you are searching impossibly tight clusters of houses the "bad guys" just go around you to the houses you already searched. Or do you have 15 million troops to guard all the houses that you already searched? It's just ridiculous to think you can do that. Afghanistan is huge and has a lot of people. Your "tiles of victory" would have to be negligibly small in light of how many people and provinces are there. Your tactic would maybe work in Rhode Island but there are still 1 million people there and that's A LOT OF PEOPLE!
You've played Star Craft and think that tactics that you used there apply to real war and controlling an entire country? You're pathetically naive or, in your own words, a stupid cunt.
But it does give the invading force the ability to repel an attack without killing anyone, which is far better for winning the hearts and minds of the local population which does not (yet) want to fight.
And it's a lotus anyway.
If you actually "read my link" you would have seen a short list of many technologies the US has been supplied by Israel. Cooperating with Iran is just one example of the potential benefits for which America maintains a strong relationship with Israel.
I saw the technology list, and this is not a "big interest" that justifies the billions of dollars spent and interventionist foreign policy of standing up a new country in a hostile region.
Note my use of the word "just". I didn't say there is no basis in truth used for these examples of anti-zionist propaganda, just that none of them have anywhere near the importance ascribed to them.
If they are not important, then why are they mentioned in the link you sent? You called them "non-sense" from "idiots".
Of course one needs to be a strategic thinker to understand these things, and you've demonstrated a weakness in that area.
You have yet to demonstrate what the clear strategy is.
Either learn to read or to not twist my words around to suit your narrative. I didn't say "not important", nor am I in the position to define the US' actual long-term strategy beyond examples for you. I pointed out your mistakes, no more. I'm not here to educate you, certainly not if you won't listen. Good day.
Assuredly, your opponent would concentrate defensive troops somewhere along the intersection of the path between your troops and your target. Thus, you have to plow through warm bodies at some point; typically the enemy takes this lying down if you have enough guns and tanks.
Support my political activism on Patreon.
I didn't say "not important"
You said: "none of them have anywhere near the importance ascribed to them"
Yet they were mentioned in the link you provided from the State Department as to why we are committed to Israel.
nor am I in the position to define the US' actual long-term strategy beyond examples for you.
Yet you claimed we have "big interests" in Israel, a country we have been supporting for decades. So far, the examples are to stop Iran from getting nukes, and a science research partner.
I'm not here to educate you, certainly not if you won't listen.
I read your link. I've responded to your arguments. You are now ignoring my arguments and won't provide the "big interests" that you claim exist and tried to bolster by a weak document.
You do note the part about having family in the region? I have friends over multiple borders there.
Yes I noted that and it doesn't change the fact you went completely off topic to discuss what your interest was. Thing is, I actually served in Israel's military, and I was not impressed by what you had to say. I was also about as liberal as they get over there and was politically active over a decade ago, even getting to serve as a voting member at one convention. I have advocated for a state for Palestinians long before the right wing stopped calling us traitors for that belief (they still do for plenty of reasons including "allowing" Arabs into "our" party), the abandonment of settlements, and refraining from useless military actions which would serve mostly to piss off the Arabs. Plenty of us exist, we're just tired of arguing with those idiots from Likud. So please don't assume as the more vocal Arabs on the Internet tend to that all Israelis would love nothing more than to send the palestinians packing.
Blaming Israel isn't necessarily racist though the narrative often stems there, especially on those occasions when American Jews are blamed only by association through religion. I had no intention of calling you a racist and apologize if offense was taken. Alongside its religious fanatics who actually want to try to conquer Jordan (*rolls eyes*), Israel has its share of Jewish racists, both groups I'm eager to denounce as a deplorable bunch of asshats.
The key thing is that Israel is used as a convenient excuse for anything Arabs dislike. When they despise their dictators, it's because of American support for their "zionist-controlled leaders" (where the support is actually meant for the country, and even if it's actually helping the people). They don't take political responsibility and actually stand up and vote out incompetent generals who have no place in government. Instead, taking Egypt for an example, the uneducated either tow the nationalist line and actually believe nonsense such as the ridiculous "Egypt won in 1967" lie, or they turn to the religious Muslim Brotherhood which preaches exactly the same "need" for religious majority that Israeli right-wingers do and that Arabs hate about Israel.
So yes- it's disheartening to hear someone, who I'm sure is reasonable, parrot the same nonsense that Al Queada does about the "reasons" it's in an extremist crusade (speaking of which, they're still pissed off at *Americans* because of the crusades, though of course have no problem with Muslim-based military expansion- go figure). If Bin Laden truly believed Israel was the source of his imagined grievance, don't you think he'd actually try to fight there rather than Iraq, which was on its way to becoming a stable democracy? The truth is AQ's mission and selected targets have absolutely nothing to do with the political cooperation we have with Israel. It's instead relegated to a tool for recruitment among a wide population of uneducated boys who have been told the lies for decades.
Again- Israel only an excuse and by continuing to declare it as tantamount to fact, one serves no cause but the terrorists'. Abandoning ties with Israel won't do anything to chance perception of the US- we'll neither be believed that we did (because now we're "supporting them secretly- muhahaha"), nor stop being accused that "Amerika" is still "run by the Jews". We could *try* it and witness how epicly fail the idea was, but that would only serve to stress American-Israeli relations, which of course runs counter to the American desire to have what meager influence it can have on Israel and won't help our economy either.
Generally speaking, you're right about Afghanistan. But Israel is certainly not the root of the problem we're tied down with there. Ignorance and extremism are reasons why Afghan men, who despite having real problems to worry about, would join the insurgency. Education can't be stressed enough, and while the example ensuring girls can
They're called e-x-a-m-p-l-e-s, dickhead, because I'm not your fucking research assistant. If you want an exhaustive course on our benefits from US-Israel relations you're in the wrong place.
That's great that you know one of the letters in the English alphabet. Thanks for showing off your skills to everyone. Up next, techsoldate figures out numerical digits, like so:
5
In other words, despite your claims of "big interests", the best you can do is point to a weak document where your number 2 example are some minor research technologies. A document which also lists pufferies such as democracy and a long desire for a Jewish homeland.
Duh! But it will never happen. Jewish people are just as much selfish, stupid, short-sighted, religious bigots as the rest of our jackass citizenry. That we do what we do vis-a-vis Israel is the proof of the preceding statement.
Social Credit would solve everything...
I much prefer options five and six.
5) Don't bomb the bloody aid tent.
6) Better yet don't even get into a position where you could even bomb the bloody aid tent, like starting a war where you invade an unpopular but sovereign nation for resources.
An ounce of prevention saves a pound of cure.
In the end, if you want to stop a violent protest, find out why the protesters are violent or better yet why they are protesting and fix that. Protesters are a symptom of the problem, not a cause so treat the cause of the problem. This weapon will not work in Iraq and Afghanistan because the population is already galvanised against the invaders, force of arms will not fix this and attempting to do so will only galvanise more people against you.
Calling someone a "hater" only means you can not rationally rebut their argument.
I and my buddies are the 13 soldiers in this scenario.
So it turns out you'd need both the numbers and the infinite luck, Mr. Ngumba.
And I'm not falling for any pincer moves, so think up something new.
I've never played Star Craft. I couldn't even tell what they were advertising yesterday until the logo came on the screen.
I have, however, played war, for large values of "played."
We leave behind enough of a presence as we move through, and we gain the assistance of the local authorities. In the end the plan is to have them governing and protecting themselves instead of rolling over when the Taliban come in over the border from Pakistan.
Some areas need repeat visits from a full-strength force. Some need it several times. But that's to be expected as long as we leave the areas bordering our cleared areas uncleared. It's also to be expected that some of our presumed friends turn out to be enemies; rooting them out by iteration is part of the process as well. That's why this takes time and diligence and the willingness to suffer casualties, and isn't resolved by rearing up and making ourselves look big and hoping the enemy has a distaste for the obvious endgame.
Now go back to your video games. And tell me how that Star Craft II looks on a PC. The commercial was pretty good.
If you're conducting a house-to-house search for malefactors, GET OUT OF THAT WAR.
No.
We're winning.
Unless it turns out the enemy are being supplied from other enemy countries -- or worse, from supposed ally countries.
Then we've just got a bigger war to win. And if we're not honest about it, we'll lose it, like Viet Nam.
But this time, unlike Viet Nam, losing won't end our involvement. Because the enemy we'd leave behind this time are not merely interested in having a homeland with a different political system, but in developing and exporting an ideology of violent extremism through extremely violent means.
That's my analogy.
Yours, Israel and North Korea, is distorted. If someone doesn't supply Israel continuously it will be overrun by its vast enemy before the world has time to respond, while North Korea doesn't have the resources to invade South Korea, much less deal with our response; besides which, we maintain a significant active presence in South Korea, and have little in Israel. I'm not shocked at all that Palestinians and Arabs blame America for Israel's actions; they blame everyone but themselves. Israel's taking of territory was a defensive measure to create a defensible border. Its putative excesses in responding to cross-border attacks have been twisted into fodder for terrorist rants, guaranteeing we haven't seen the last of the conflict. Israel doesn't go on the offensive. And I think the Palestinians, Lebanese, et al will find that if they stop going on the offensive, Israel won't be doing so much shooting back, if any.