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School District Drops 'D' Grades

Students in one New Jersey school district will no longer be able to squeak by in class after the Morris County School Board approved dropping the D grade. Beginning in the fall students who don't get a C or higher will get an F on their report card. "I'm tired of kids coming to school and not learning and getting credit for it," said Superintendent Larrie Reynolds in a Daily Record report.

21 of 617 comments (clear)

  1. How about... by sorrowsjudge · · Score: 5, Insightful

    How about just not giving credit for D's? Am I missing something here?

    1. Re:How about... by fyrewulff · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But that would make too much sense!

      I hate it when people make scales to grade something on, and then never use the damn entirety of the scale. See also game sites that have a 1-10 rating for a game but never really use anything below 7.

      --
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    2. Re:How about... by Minwee · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Logically, you would remove F and give failing student Ds so you have A, B, C and D, but whatever floats your boat.

      Perhaps the grades could be "Excellent", "Awesome", "Doing Really Very Well" and "Not Left Behind", so as to comply with government standards for education.

    3. Re:How about... by sorrowsjudge · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't think that removing Ds from the scale is going to do anything. If they don't want to give credit for a D, then don't! Giving a bit of granularity to the system, saying "you almost passed, try a bit harder" is a lot different than "you were nowhere near passing. Why don't you try something else instead?"

    4. Re:How about... by sorrowsjudge · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree that D is redundant. Letting little Johnny and his parents know that he needs to try a little harder to pass the class (receiving a D) is different enough than letting Johnny and his parents that he failed hard to warrant having the two separate failing grades.

    5. Re:How about... by dgatwood · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In most schools, a D satisfies a course requirement outside your major, but not a course requirement within your major. That makes a lot of sense, really, as it provides more leniency in classes that are less critical to your specific degree. The alternative would be grading major students on a different curve, but that blows up when people start exploiting it by changing majors at the last minute....

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    6. Re:How about... by Luckyo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      From the original article:

      "In todays world, youve either got it, or you dont, Kentucky principal Steve Frommeyer said. Theres no opportunity to just be OK. "

      People with this line of thought who are teaching anything below university level (i.e. before children/teens have decided what they want to do with their lives) need to get fired yesterday, and be permanently banned from any teaching position. They destroy lives, literally, by forcing children to be "either great or dead".
      We no longer live in the caves, and most learning issues, especially at age that young are not "excel or die". People who disagree are in the wrong profession.

    7. Re:How about... by wickerprints · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Mod parent up.

      This latest action is really just grade inflation in disguise. The truth is, everybody expects A and B grades now; in essence, that everyone in the class should be above average, as if we all lived in some Garrison Keillor-esque world. "A" doesn't mean anything anymore. It's not good enough because now you have to have a 5.0 GPA on a 4.0 scale. It's stupid.

      I think letter grades should be done away with entirely, and a numeric scale used instead, normalized to the maximum credit possible. A letter grade ends up being too subjective and thus prone to manipulation, inflation, or ambiguity in interpretation. A number that is guaranteed to fall between 0 and 100, for example, fixes some of these issues--at least, until educators start messing around with giving "extra credit."

    8. Re:How about... by Ecuador · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Or they could make it a bit harder to get a D... Simply you get a passing grade if you deserve to pass...

      Oblig:

      Nigel Tufnel: The numbers all go to eleven. Look, right across the board, eleven, eleven, eleven and...
      Marty DiBergi: Oh, I see. And most amps go up to ten?
      Nigel Tufnel: Exactly.
      Marty DiBergi: Does that mean it's louder? Is it any louder?
      Nigel Tufnel: Well, it's one louder, isn't it? It's not ten. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at ten. You're on ten here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on ten on your guitar. Where can you go from there? Where?
      Marty DiBergi: I don't know.
      Nigel Tufnel: Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
      Marty DiBergi: Put it up to eleven.
      Nigel Tufnel: Eleven. Exactly. One louder.
      Marty DiBergi: Why don't you just make ten louder and make ten be the top number and make that a little louder?
      Nigel Tufnel: [pause] These go to eleven.

      --
      Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. Polar Scope Align for iOS
    9. Re:How about... by natehoy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I hate it when people make scales to grade something on, and then never use the damn entirety of the scale.

      I don't think you understand the "scale" in use here. The scale is of passing grades, and it was and is used in its entirety. They've simply truncated off the bit of the scale that used to mean "passing" and now means "failing", because "failing" grades don't have a place on the scale at that school any more.

      For the alphabetically-challenged, "F" is not "the letter after D" - that would be the letter "E".

      "F" is an abbreviation meaning "Fail". It means "you are not within the scale of passing grades, you are below it, and you failed. No cookie!"

      In programming, "F" would be equivalent to null.

      Most importantly, the letters are only an abbreviation for the actual percentages, probably so they fit on a report card more easily and with less writing on the teacher's part. The actual percentages are really what count, and I assure you they still go from 0% to 100% as per standard mathematical principles.

      --
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    10. Re:How about... by bonch · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I disagree. Kids' egos have been so coddled, from the removal of losing teams in sports games to passing everyone in a class so nobody feels bad for themselves, that they grow up with an unwarranted sense of entitlement and accomplishment. We have a lot of selfish, spoiled people today because of this crap, and the rest of us who actually work for things are supporting everyone else to a greater degree than ever before.

      The principal's statement made sense to me--he's saying you can't just skate by in the real world but must put in effort. It's not hard to pass elementary school. At that level, it's all about basic effort. Flunking a kid who would have skated by is doing him or her a service, failing them so they can retake the course or retry the test.

      Nobody's lives are being destroyed ("literally") by requiring them to pass in school. Your statement about living in caves makes no sense, because we had to be even less lazy back then, learning how to hunt and build shelters or starve to death. Your precious self-esteem mattered little.

  2. Good by sconeu · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If done the way TFS says, it's a good thing.

    The problem is that teachers don't want to fail students, so the D students will get Cs instead of Fs.

    --
    General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
  3. Average by ComputerGeek01 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I never understood this, if a student is substandard then they are substandard. If this superintendent knew what the definition of average was he would realise that, by definition, some students HAVE to fall below a 'C' mark. Teaching everybody to a minimum standard is a very noble cause but it isn't possible for everyone you teach to live up to that standard; so instead we end up with these bitter drop-outs who are essentially labled as unemployable just because they can't tell you what the capital of Nebraska is.

  4. Re:feh. by DurendalMac · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Sometimes the best teacher in the world can't get a stubborn little jackass to learn anything. You want to point the finger? Point it at the parents who do nothing to help or encourage their kids and expect the schools to make up for the daily 4+ hours of TV and gaming that the kids get. Crappy schools need to get fixed, sure, but I'd say that crappy parents are a far bigger problem. They expect the schools to do everything so they don't have to lift a finger.

  5. Re:Average by Antisyzygy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I wish they would implement more trade schools. It would be nice to move people that fail at academic pursuits into a high school designed to teach them a marketable trade like being a mechanic or car. Just because someone doesnt do well in math, science, english and/or social studies doesn't mean they don't have some other talent that would benefit society.

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  6. Bell Curve by radicalpi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Do people not understand that a normal distribution would be a bell-curve? Some will get A's and some will get F's a few more will get B's and D's the majority will get C's. If you are shooting for everyone getting A's,B's,and C's you are possibly over-challenging those that would normally not achieve C+ and possibly causing them to fail instead. Plus, all of the A students are being even more underchallenged in an effort to put everyone on one side of the curve.

    1. Re:Bell Curve by arb+phd+slp · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Is normal distribution of grades really necessary, though? That only makes sense if you're only comparing the students to one another, which I think is the wrong way to go. Why not compare them to a standard of "excels in this skill" "has acquired the skill" and "hasn't acquired the skill"? Teaching to standards won't necessarily create a normal curve since some skills can be acquired by everyone (for example gym class), or at least everyone who chooses to take a particular course (my high school AP Calculus class).

      We need to have a national conversation about what an "educated" person looks like in the 21st century. Just teaching a list of things we've always taught isn't working anymore, for a vast range of reasons. It is likely that "educated" might differ from state-to-state, but does no one ask "what are we hoping to accomplish by sending all of our pre-citizens to school?" and then work out a curriculum backwards from there?

      The focus on getting everyone ready for a university (which is what it seems like public school is doing) is misguided and wasteful as well as damaging to the students. Telling large numbers of young people, "You aren't suited for college, therefore you FAIL" is a horrible thing to do to a person.

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  7. Will it really matter? by cayenne8 · · Score: 4, Insightful
    Is this all going to make any difference at all anyway?

    I mean, from what I understand, schools just plain do not hold anyone back because they fail...they just continue to promote them on to the next grade regardless of their level of learning the material.

    Can't hurt Junior's self esteem you know...

    --
    Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.........
  8. We have to stop preaching equality by MikeRT · · Score: 5, Insightful

    and start accepting the fact that intelligence is not evenly distributed. Not in groups, not even in individuals. People of average or below average are never going to be engineers, doctors, lawyers, etc. They're not going to compete for jobs in high-paying, intelligence and education-heavy fields because you cannot educate a mind of low capacity.

    The fact is that our policies are being set by a bunch of arrogant elitists who think that if they cram down enough education, they can make a clean, office-dwelling, never-get-your-hands-dirty, middle class hipster society and outsource all of the menial labor, manufacturing and other jobs that people of average and below average intelligence used to do. Well, you can't because most people aren't cut out for that work, and our society cannot continue to maintain the facade of so many people who would have been working in the fields, working in factories, etc. being middle and upper-middle class professionals.

    Part of the reason we are so close to national bankruptcy is that we don't respect hard-working blue collar workers. Whether they are digging ditches or doing intricate plumbing work, their work is as necessary as 95% of the white collar labor force. How about instead of cramming down unnecessary education, people start actually respecting each other for what they do with their lives rather than a bunch of pieces of paper for diploma mills like the average high school or college.

    1. Re:We have to stop preaching equality by BassMan449 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You are exactly right. It has become a big problem in this country. People go to college who have no business being in college because that is the cool thing to do and they want to party. In the long term that has led to lowering of standards at many universities simply because they don't want to fail so many people.

      What you end up with is many people with degrees who probably shouldn't have been able to get it. Those people have been taught that having a degree means they get a better job and they refuse to do jobs that would be better suited for them and that they would likely enjoy much more, because they feel the deserve a better paying white collar job.

      We need to learn to better respect the blue collar jobs. Without people doing those jobs our world doesn't work, yet people are taught from a young age that doing blue-collar work is something you should work to avoid.

  9. There's nothing magical about 70% by NotSoHeavyD3 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Ok, I can't say how this works in other countries since I'm from the US.(And I'll probably get marked as a troll by some stupid moderator. Oh well, the benefits of having Karma to burn.) That being said there's nothing "magical" about 70%. I mean I understand how you go to school for over 12 years and they always use 70% so you automatically assume that "Oh of course 70% is a C" and that no other number can be a C. The most obvious example of this not being true is the SAT. Average is 500 out of 800 which is 62.5%. What this means is that the person writing the test can make it harder or easier to get alot of points even if they are testing on the entire subject area. (And theoretically any question is "answerable.") They can move the average up or down as they see fit by including more or fewer tricky questions while still testing in the target field. The reason to do this is that if you have a bunch of grades all pinned up at 95%+ you basically can't tell which student is really better than another. You also can see what a student doesn't know. (I mean you could just make the test really easy and then everybody gets 100% ) Think of it this way. If I tell you it's 30 outside is it hot? What you should say to me is you can't tell since you don't have a scale to determine what that 30 actually means. If I asked is it hot when it's 30C you'd know yes it is and 30F is cold. Without some scale to tell you what a number means you can't tell. The same is true for percentages in education. Without a scale to help you interpret what 70% means you can't tell if that's a good or shitty score. (The professor could have made the test such that only a great student could get above 50%. Note, yes I've had courses like that. I had a physics course where the prof made it so hard 30% was passing which shows that yes a professor can put average anywhere he likes.)

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