Germany To Roll Out ID Cards With Embedded RFID

An anonymous reader writes "The production of RFID chips, an integral element of the new generation of German identity cards, has started after the government gave a 10-year contract to the chipmaker NXP in the Netherlands. Citizens will receive the mandatory new ID cards starting from the first of November. The new card allows German authorities to identify people with speed and accuracy, the government said. These authorities include the police, customs and tax authorities and of course the local registration and passport granting authorities. There are some concerns that the use of RFID chips will pose a security or privacy risk, however. Early versions of the electronic passports, using RFID chips with a protocol called 'basic access control' (BAC), were successfully hacked by university researchers and security experts."

Comments

EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

New EU passports have RFID already. This is just a replacement for the barcode, right? The ID shouldn't have any information on it. If the implementers were smart ...

Re:EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

On the contrary. Since the new EU passports contain fingerprint data and a digital version of the picture, much of the contention about the new passports revolved around the creation of a central database of biometric information. If the passports were just an index into the database, then that database would be inevitable.

It is important that technology-minded users learn not to apply the usual centralist approach to everything. We are not cattle.

Re:EU passports

[RAMMS EIN]

``It is important that technology-minded users learn not to apply the usual centralist approach to everything. We are not cattle.''

We are not? Then why do we let ourselves be herded and look to the herders for our every need, including a sense of safety and comfort?

Note that by "we" I mean the general population. It doesn't necessarily apply to you, or even to me. But new tracking measures are being rolled out, and I don't see a lot of people making a fuss about it - rather, I see a lot of people being in favor.

Re:EU passports

[udippel]

The first three posts in this discussion are - as of now - ACs. Though different from the normal 'First Piss Post'-category. They are spot on the topic. Still ACs. Why?
Already fearful of being tracked? Yes, you are. Through your IP-addresses.
Next year you can be tracked by having your Personalausweis in your pocket. Or in your bag. You need it, because you want to enter an official building; the Rathaus.
Or doing banking business:
"Guten Morgen, Frau Müller."
"Uh, Sie kennen mich?"
"Nein, aber Sie haben Ihren Ausweis dabei! Ich denke Sie wollen Ihren Urlaub bezahlen!?"
"Woher wissen Sie das?"
"Nun, als Sie hier hereinkamen, hat unsere Sicherheitssoftware gemeldet, dass Sie gerade auch im Reisebüro waren."

Oh, what a brave new world we weave ... .

Re:EU passports

[mischi_amnesiac]

Fingerprints are optional (in germany).

Re:EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

Fingerprints are only optional in the ID card ("Personalausweis"). The comment was about the biometric passports, for which two fingerprints are mandatory (left and right index finger).

Re:EU passports

[buchner.johannes]

The first three posts in this discussion are - as of now - ACs. Though different from the normal 'First Piss Post'-category. They are spot on the topic. Still ACs. Why?
Already fearful of being tracked? Yes, you are. Through your IP-addresses.

Users of slashdot can not track me. Only the website admins can. The thing I am afraid of is slashdot comments taken out of context in 10-30 years time.

Re:EU passports

[udippel]

Thanks for turning yourself in!
Now, please, the other two!?

Re:EU passports

[phoenix321]

As long as we, the people, look towards the government for all our personal needs, personal safety, personal income, personal food, personal shelter, we WILL be treated as cattle, because we ARE.

If we depend on The State to do everything for us, The State can and will do everything, for or against us.

Less than half the German population actually earns pays more taxes than they receive in benefits, dole, pensions, support. 1998 was the last Federal election where the majority of voters were net-tax-payers, everything from had more net-tax-receiving voters in the majority.

We are cattle. We wanted the benefits, the regular feeding, the rancher-provided shelter, the dependable frame of life. When there were elections, we always voted for Bigger Staters, for expanding our stables, expanding our food, strenghtening the fences.

We always thought we could have perfect social security for no tradeoff, ridiculed all opinions to the contrary as neocon idiots, real freedom was always claimed to be identical to the situation in Somalia, and all that. When we go to the abbatoirs, we can't say we weren't warned.

Re:EU passports

[BrokenHalo]

As long as we, the people, look towards the government for all our personal needs, personal safety, personal income, personal food, personal shelter, we WILL be treated as cattle, because we ARE.

Exactly. As Bird and Fortune put it:

"The most important task [of government] is security. The security of every decent, hard-working man and woman up and down the country. And we think that's best achieved by treating them all as potential criminals."

Re:EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

The first three posts in this discussion are - as of now - ACs. Though different from the normal 'First Piss Post'-category. They are spot on the topic. Still ACs. Why?

Slashdot does not allow me to have a simple throwaway password I can easily remember without writing it down.
As a general principle, I use different passwords on different sites, and I never write down passwords.
The type of password slashdot requires, or rather required more than ten years ago when I created my
account, I forget after not using it for two weeks. Thus, I always post as AC on slashdot.

Re:EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

> "Guten Morgen, Frau Müller."
> "Uh, Sie kennen mich?"
> "Nein, aber Sie haben Ihren Ausweis dabei"

Did anyone else read this in the voice of TV Inspector Derrick?

Re:EU passports

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you need to see my ID?

No, sir.

But I could be anybody!

No, you couldn't, sir.

Re:EU passports

[vegiVamp]

As a Belgian, i've always been used to having my ID card with me. I don't see a major issue in that - it facilitates identifying oneself, and has no major drawbacks, privacy or other. (Because it's a normal thing, police don't tend to find it a thrill to stop random people and ask for the cards. It has been so for decades, and none of the doom scenarios that get spouted here on occasion have happened.)

A few years back, the standard plastified thingies have been upgraded to smartcard ones. This was a minor worry for me on account that there *could* be information on there that joe average could not read off it, but that's not a major issue, and no related incidents have been reported.

As soon as we upgrade to RFID ones, however, you can be sure that I'll be keeping it in a protective metal sleeve. Protective for me, that is. I suspect that such card holders will soon become commonplace, too, as they already are for credit cards.

Sure I have my card with me, officer. Sure, I'll show you, here it is. What ? Oh, that's just a protective sleeve, metal-backed for sturdiness.

Re:EU passports

[operagost]

As if they won't outlaw those sleeves.

Re:EU passports

[Chowderbags]

Next year I'll suddenly learn German? Awesome!

Re:EU passports

[mhajicek]

The danger is this: When you pull it out to pass a checkpoint, someone else can have a device scan your card. Then they will be able to fake your card for nefarious purposes. "The ATM was hacked, and the security system shows that you were the only person present." "But I wasn't there, I was at home!" "Unless you can prove that your ID was hacked you're going to jail."

Re:EU passports

[vegiVamp]

It's not as if you can read RFID from ten meter away, really. The sleeve protects against things like shops tracking customers as they walk through the security gates.

Re:EU passports

[vegiVamp]

No, because similar sleeves are already obligatory in the government buildings that use RFID access cards.

Contrarily to what seems popular opinion, I do not believe there is a global plot to subdue the people of the world. There are just incompetent and stupid politicians.

identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

The passports already have RFID. This is about the identity cards. (which is only a card, compared to the passports that are too big to carry them around with you all the time).

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Khyber]

The full-sized US passport fits in my back pocket without any problem, my wallet sits comfortably in front of it.

Too big, what? It's just over 3"x5" in size.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

But what kind of idiot keeps his wallet in back pocket?

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes, but you have to remember that Americans have a lot fatter asses than they have in Europe.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[DJRumpy]

Yes, but you have to remember that Americans have a lot fatter asses than they have in Europe.

I wouldn't be so quick to jump on that bandwagon. Although this is an older site, I can't imagine things have changed drastically in 5 years. The page was also updated in Dec of 2009:

http://www.malehealth.co.uk/weight/18962-now-were-fatter-americans

Two out of three US men — 67% - are overweight or obese. Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Malta have now all exceeded this figure. England and Wales are not far behind.

The EU is so worried about it that it has launched its own campaign against obesity. 'The time when obesity was thought to be a problem on the other side of the Atlantic has gone by,' said Mars Di Bartolomeo, Luxembourg's Minister of Health.

The tubby top ten:

Greece (78.6% of blokes are overweight or obese)
Germany (75.4%)
Czech Republic (73.2%)
Cyprus (72.6%)
Slovakia (69%)
Malta (68%)
Finland (67.8%)
Slovenia (66.5%)
Ireland (66.4%)
England and Wales (65.4%).

Frankly, I don't think urban sprawl has anything to do with obesity in a significant way. I think it has to do with fat/calorie content of restaurant food (especially so in the US), and the fact that 'eating out', which used to be the odd occurrence here, has become more the norm for a high percentage of homes. Way too much fast food, or even regular restaurants that don't have healthy menu's. We also spend far more time isolated in our homes, on the internet, and watching TV.

On a side note, I eat out a couple of times a week but I adapt my intake to compensate for shitty food that I might eat on occasion. I also spend 6-10 hours a week in the gym doing heavy lifting and I bicycle for 8-16 miles on the weekends. I live in the the deep south where obesity is even higher than the 'norm' for the U.S.

I sometimes feel like a stranger in my own land given the looks I get in public at times.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

The old German identity cards are 105 x 74 mm,
the new ones will be 85.6 x 53.98 mm.

i.e. 4.12 x 2.93 inch old and 3.37 x 2.12 inch.

I.e: you can put your identity card into your
wallet. (especially as it is only a card and not
multiple sheets of stuff).

The passports are 104 x 78 mm. That is only slightly larger, but too large (and also too thick) for most wallets.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[ewanm89]

The kind who haven't seen Oliver Twist.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[rvw]

But what kind of idiot keeps his wallet in back pocket?

I think he is "a Lady", and he has mistaken his handbag for a backpocket.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[LinuxIsGarbage]

But what kind of idiot keeps his wallet in back pocket?

George Costanza

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

I am a South-Eastern European. I do not want to generalise like your post does, but weight training is a lot more popular there (and in Eastern Europe) than in England (where I live now). This makes using BMI as a measure of "fatness" completely moot.

I am 182cm and 90kg giving me a BMI of 27.2.. I am considered a fatty by that article, yet my body fat percentage is 12.3. What do you think?

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

It's well known that body builders don't fit (no pun intended) into the BMI scale, but it doesn't take a trained professional to differentiate between obese and fit.

Although weight lifters are likely to blow the scale, much like I do, someone who simply stays 'fit' within a good margin of error, will not.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

I sometimes feel like a stranger in my own land given the looks I get in public at times.

What are you ranting about here? You're in the fried pickle South, so all the blobs of humanity are dumbstruck to come across your wispy stick figure and they gawk until there's no drool left? Serious, WTF are you saying?

Now, let's go back in time.

Finland, Germany, Greece, Cyprus, the Czech Republic, Slovakia and Malta have now all exceeded this figure. England and Wales are not far behind.

While I can appreciate that the statistical mean average person in these countries may have tacked on 5-10 pounds over the imperfect BMI score, I think were one to travel extensively in these countries one might note they do not have anywhere near the same massive obesity problem readily seen with the naked eye all across the United States.

In other words, I think the runaway US obesity problem is skewed when grouped together with simple 'overweight' status in order to purport Europe is the same. It's not. It may be starting to go that direction (a proposition I would agree with) but it does not rank when compared to the American lardassity.

Spend some time researching first hand and discover for yourself.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Anonymous Coward]

It's not the fat in your diet, it's the fructose, as in high fructose corn syrup. Your body can handle digesting a certain amount of ingested fat. What it has trouble handling is the byproducts that are produced in your liver when you consume fructose. The byproducts are fat and uric acid - which leads to high blood pressure and hyperuricemia (commonly called gout). When the soft drink manufactures in this country replaced sucrose with high fructose corn syrup, the incidence of gout started climbing.
http://www.slideshare.net/nephron/uric-acid-fructose-and-hypertension is an interesting presentation on the subject.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Ginger Unicorn]

The same kind that has 12345 as their luggage combination.

Re:identity cards, not passports

[Khyber]

The smart kind that knows to keep a rubberband around it to keep gypsies from pilfering it.

What, you've never done international travel?

Who woulda thunk it

[gmhowell]

Germans coming up with new and innovative citizenry. What could possibly go wrong with that?

(Bye bye karma...)

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[gmhowell]

Should read "new and innovative ways to track the citizenry". Cripes...

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

Numbering the whole population, what could possibly go wrong?

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm German. As soon as I read it, I thought about putting it into some shielded box or something, only taking it out, when asked by the authorities. I don't need my movements monitored and get stored in some database or whatever without me knowing about it.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[bart416]

Yes, and the government is out on tracking everybody! Really if they want to track you they will no matter what. If I have to choose between a RFID chip in my ID card or a tinfoil hat and wallet. I'll take the RFID chip cause the chance of it being useful exceeds the chance of the government bothering to track everything I do.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Ironsides]

Alternatively, you could stick it in the microwave for a minute after you get it to fry the RFID chip.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[maxwell demon]

But that would probably invalidate it, probably getting you in trouble in situations where you are required to have a valid identity card with you (you certainly need either an identity card or a passport when going to a non-EU country. I'm not sure about other occasions, however; for most situations, the driving license will do).

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

Alternatively, you could stick it in the microwave for a minute after you get it to fry the RFID chip.

I would recommend starting with 2 seconds at high. Any longer and discoloration and warping might occur.
I've been told a hard blow with a hammer is actually also effective (above a certain amount of G), and less detectable.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Jane Q. Public]

No, a passport with a malfunctioning RFID is still legal. But a minute in the microwave is FAR too long.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Urkki]

Yes, and the government is out on tracking everybody! Really if they want to track you they will no matter what. If I have to choose between a RFID chip in my ID card or a tinfoil hat and wallet. I'll take the RFID chip cause the chance of it being useful exceeds the chance of the government bothering to track everything I do.

No, the thing is, without this kind of technology, they can choose a number of individuals they have resources to track at the same time. With this type of technology, they can track everybody at the same time. With modern storage capacities, a future government can retroactively check what you have been doing through your life.

And it becomes a slippery slope. It starts with tracking terrorist suspects, proceeds to solving other crimes, and ends with tracking people who disagree with the current party in power and threaten their next election win, and after that all bets are off. Just hope you never visited a house where some opposition activist lived back then...

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[agw]

It's not like we didn't have ID cards in Germany before. Everyone already has an ID card and a number.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[ultranova]

It's not like we didn't have ID cards in Germany before. Everyone already has an ID card and a number.

Why not simply forget about the card and tattoo the number in your arm? That way you can't lose it.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Wowsers]

Why not simply forget about the card and tattoo the number in your arm?

Adolf Hitler already tried that idea.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[agw]

At the moment, there are still too many numbers. ID card number, passport number, maybe a driver's license number, a tax number for every state you worked and lived, etc.

But they are already working on a unified number that you get at the time of your birth and that will stick with you until you die.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[PolygamousRanchKid]

Everyone already has an ID card and a number.

Mine says "Number Six". Actually, Erich Honecker had "Number One" in his ID card, which would have made short work of the whole premise of "The Prisoner" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Prisoner

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

Because some people don't have arms

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[postbigbang]

Never forget.

Remember to forgive, but never forget.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

Whoosh moment, eh?

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[couchslug]

"(Bye bye karma...)"

I'll wave goodbye to some too!

Modern man wants a Welfare State (even USians, who either want a Welfare State or a Welfare Military Industrial Complex).

The only way to make that sustainable is (shock, horror!) _exclusivity_, because we don't have the tech to be a zero-cost goods and services cornucopia for everyone who wants to enter our countries for economic reasons.

We won't have police states to fend off crime, but we will require them to protect ourselves from invasion by people whose countries and cultures fail to provide the Welfare that is our Birthright. :-)

That, kids, is a real, no-shit, us-or-them scenario, Freedom isn't expensive, we can offer that to all comers. However, no ideologue, from the Left or Right, can reasonably claim we can house and feed the rest of the world as it decides to show up on our doorstep.

It isn't reasonable to expect modern Germans to do that. World War II and the Shoah are ancient history, and that their predecessors dealt with ethnic and cultural competition in one way doesn't mean such competition doesn't exist or that it is thoughtcrime to point that out. To maintain exclusivity one must be able to sort people.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[no-body]

Yes, mandatory chip implant...
If you are without: Please come to the side and put your arms on the back. Click (handcuffs)- pfft, there you go, now you have one.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Internetuser1248]

However, no ideologue, from the Left or Right, can reasonably claim we can house and feed the rest of the world as it decides to show up on our doorstep.

Sure they can, perhaps not showing up on our doorstep, I mean a single nation can only hold so many people, but with universally available contraception so only people who want children have them, curbing population growth, and sustainable farming and forestry, there is enough arable land on the planet to feed and house 6 billion people.

The problem is the insularity of nations, we want to make our own citizens happy but we don't give a shit about the rest of the world. I realise I am being absurdly idealistic but you claim it is not possible. It may never heppen, but it is quite possible for all nations to band together and guarantee welfare for all human beings

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Anonymous Coward]

The number changes every time you get a new ID card. (The law for ID cards was made shortly after the war, when some people still distrusted government.)

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[couchslug]

"It may never heppen, but it is quite possible for all nations to band together and guarantee welfare for all human beings"

That's utter babble, not insight. It is theoretically possible for winged monkeys to fly out my arse, but it isn't likely.

What you are proposing is Communism, which has the minor drawback of containing the seeds of its own destruction in the power structures it must have to be made government.

It makes no sense for everyone that has anything to sacrifice themselves for their less-accomplished, less-competent, culturally-self-destructive fellow humans who will just drink the well dry. Why should I want to live in a mud hut so everyone else can live in mud hut?

Do-gooder humans have an interesting tendency to ignore likely outcomes of implementing their ideas.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[mizaru]

You are not required to carry it with you all the time, though, you just need to own a passport and/or ID card.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[rcamans]

ends up right away with tracking people who anyone in the government does not like, or one of their friends does not like, or ...

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[bart416]

I somehow feel like I'm repeating myself, governments have better things to do than track everybody and everything. If they want to track somebody or a certain group of people they'll do it no matter what, tracking 100 people or tracking 1000 won't raise the costs of their operation that much. If they're so poised on tracking you, they can already track your mobile phone everywhere you go anyway actually; yet I'm sure you're constantly using it. You probably have a digital tv that could keep track of everything you watch and they could have filled your computer's HD with trojans through a backdoor the manufacturer was forced to install and the microwave oven could keep track of how much times you eat per day and kill you if it deems you're not an economical asset by using the RFID tag in your identity card to target you and boil you from the inside out. Really, where does the paranoia stop, but yes the government is out to get all of us! Not to mention the technical challenge of reading a near field RFID tag from a distance of over 1m. You might think it's easy but guess what, it isn't. Near field is generally anything under 20cm. And while that might seem pointless to you, anybody who ever bothered to study electronics will note there are a few problems with the tracking theory at this point. The coil and electronics in the RFID tag were designed with this distance in mind and as such are limited in power. You might be familiar with the law of Biot-Savart. Next combine it with the definition of magnetic flux and you might want to slap the result inside the electromagnetic induction formula and you'll see how unrealistic this task really is. Additionally why is it people automatically make the assumption the government only has evil intentions?

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Urkki]

I somehow feel like I'm repeating myself, governments have better things to do than track everybody and everything.

If/when there is an automatic tracking system in place, which gathers for example just location updated (RFID, cell phone, credit card use, car register plate on OCR traffic cameras, in a few years face recognition on security cameras...), it's very easy to just store everything. Once the system is set up, tracking only some individuals is more work everywhere (except at the data-centres holding the data, where more disks need to be installed).

If they want to track somebody or a certain group of people they'll do it no matter what, tracking 100 people or tracking 1000 won't raise the costs of their operation that much. If they're so poised on tracking you, they can already track your mobile phone everywhere you go anyway actually; yet I'm sure you're constantly using it.

Yeah, but I'm talking about retroactive tracking. They can certainly start to track my cell phone (hopefully for a legally valid reasons only), which is very different for doing a database search for all locations my cell phone has been, and even more different from database actually having combined information from many sources.

You probably have a digital tv that could keep track of everything you watch and they could have filled your computer's HD with trojans through a backdoor the manufacturer was forced to install and the microwave oven could keep track of how much times you eat per day and kill you if it deems you're not an economical asset by using the RFID tag in your identity card to target you and boil you from the inside out. Really, where does the paranoia stop, but yes the government is out to get all of us!

Eh. Paranoia would be believing that it's already being done. Wisdom is trying to make sure it will not start being done.

Not to mention the technical challenge of reading a near field RFID tag from a distance of over 1m. You might think it's easy but guess what, it isn't.

So any doorway or turnstile could be a place to read and store RFIDs of everybody passing through? That's a trivial amount of information per sensor to store and index when it's only the RFID, (relative) timestamp and sensor ID.

Additionally why is it people automatically make the assumption the government only has evil intentions?

Yeah, sounds silly, except for stored surveillance data, it's enough to assume that some future government has some evil intentions. Now do you honestly believe that no future government will have any evil intentions?

It's still fine if you only care about yourself, but consider that these "evil intentions" affect just 0.1% of the population. That's bad stuff happening for quite a many people, because of the original whatever "good" reasons the storage of tracking info was started.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[bart416]

If/when there is an automatic tracking system in place, which gathers for example just location updated (RFID, cell phone, credit card use, car register plate on OCR traffic cameras, in a few years face recognition on security cameras...), it's very easy to just store everything. Once the system is set up, tracking only some individuals is more work everywhere (except at the data-centres holding the data, where more disks need to be installed).

Yes, and why bother to track RFID tags if you can locate the person down to a few meters precision far more easily using mobile phone antennas?

Yeah, but I'm talking about retroactive tracking. They can certainly start to track my cell phone (hopefully for a legally valid reasons only), which is very different for doing a database search for all locations my cell phone has been, and even more different from database actually having combined information from many sources.

By that same logic you could say mobile telephones shouldn't be used either cause the government can track them. Yet they've been around for years and a sort of tracking database system has actually been put in place ages ago and yet it hasn't been used to enslave us all. In fact the system has saved so much lives already (tracking criminals to a certain area, giving emergency services precise locations, ...).

Eh. Paranoia would be believing that it's already being done. Wisdom is trying to make sure it will not start being done.

Actually, no this is just plain paranoia. Judging from how bent you seem on proving yourself right you are probably the type of person that covers their house in tin foil.

So any doorway or turnstile could be a place to read and store RFIDs of everybody passing through? That's a trivial amount of information per sensor to store and index when it's only the RFID, (relative) timestamp and sensor ID.

Yes, and once again mobile phone is far easier to track. "Not to mention they could record all your calls!" This is sort of pointless. If a few people walk through the door at the same time your RFID reader is already going to have problems actually.

Yeah, sounds silly, except for stored surveillance data, it's enough to assume that some future government has some evil intentions. Now do you honestly believe that no future government will have any evil intentions?

It's still fine if you only care about yourself, but consider that these "evil intentions" affect just 0.1% of the population. That's bad stuff happening for quite a many people, because of the original whatever "good" reasons the storage of tracking info was started.

Yes, and when they start tracking or storing all of it you can start complaining. But until they start doing that stop the paranoia. You are suggesting we eliminate a useful technology cause it MIGHT be used for something bad.

Lets take a look at history in fact. A simple example is dynamite (maybe not the best to compare it to but it should make the point clear), originally it was invented to make mining safer, faster, ... yet it had great potential for abuse. And it did get abused, but the benefits are still there.

Or actually something that is closer to what you're suggesting. The spoon should be banned cause you could potentially kill somebody with it!

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[gmhowell]

Why not simply forget about the card and tattoo the number in your arm?

Adolf Hitler already tried that idea.

I think that was his point.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Internetuser1248]

That is utter babble, not insight. Invest in a dictionary.

Communism: a form of socialism that abolishes private ownership
# a political theory favoring collectivism in a classless society
wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
# Communism is a social structure in which, theoretically, classes are abolished and property is commonly controlled, as well as a political philosophy and social movement that advocates and aims to create such a society.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communism

Welfare is unique to capitalist (private ownership) systems as communist systems have no need to give communally owned property to inidividuals as they already own it collectively. Your hysterical screaming of "omg thats COMMUNISM!" only serves to demonstrate your ignorance. What I was proposing is called welfare, it comes from an ideology called compassion. You may have to look that word up too.

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[Internetuser1248]

just a quick grammar check:

containing the seeds of its own destruction in the power structures it must have to be made government.

what does this mean?

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[mhajicek]

It's still fine if you only care about yourself, but consider that these "evil intentions" affect just 0.1% of the population. That's bad stuff happening for quite a many people, because of the original whatever "good" reasons the storage of tracking info was started.

Agree with most of your post, but have to disagree here. Did the holocaust only affect 0.1% of the population? Imagine how much more efficiently the Nazi's could have done their job if they'd had this technology!

Re:Who woulda thunk it

[mhajicek]

You still have to unshield it to pass a checkpoint, at which point someone can remotely copy your card. Then any time they want to be, they're legally you.

perfect bomb triggers

[vinsci]

The new card allows German authorities to identify people with speed and accuracy, the government said.

Unfortunately, they will also make perfect bomb triggers, when the target walks by.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

While there is an obligation to have an ID or passport in Germany, you needn't carry it at all times.

That said, if you use public transport, there is basically no way around taking it along with you.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Ihmhi]

If only there were some way to block the RFID signal from being readable when you don't want it to be read.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

It's a near field communication chip, which isn't easily readable from more than a few centimeters away.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[maxwell demon]

That said, if you use public transport, there is basically no way around taking it along with you.

Really? I've never been asked to show my identity card. What you may required to show in certain situations (as in, when caught using the transport without a valid ticket, or in case of using a price-reduced personalized ticked), is an official paper with image ("amtlicher Lichtbildausweis"), but that doesn't have to be your identity card, your driving license should work anyway (I don't have experience with this, though, because I've never been asked to show it in public transport anyway, not even with personalized train tickets).

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

Won't happen.

The chip is based on the ISO14443-A standard and you can only communicate with it over at most 15 cm distance (about 6 inch). Under normal conditions the range goes down to roughly one inch. You have to walk very close to the bomb to set it off.

A bomb will also have a hard time to identify you. The chip has an ID that is public readable, but for privacy reasons this ID is a random number that is only valid for a single transaction session.

Also the article is wrong. The pass will not use the BAC protocol but the much improved PACE protocol. That's state of the art crypto. It's still broken by design because you can do a simple man in the middle attack over the air, but it is a lot better..

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, tests by various groups have shown that RFID chips are easily read from several METERS away.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

If only there wer some sort of tinfoil hat for ID cards ...

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[ewanm89]

Is 96ft (~29m) far enough away, that's the Defcon record. Blackhat USA 2010 has beat it don't know the practical distance achieved but the paper gives a theoretical maximum of 565ft (~172m). Want to change some of those assumptions? It's a radio, distance is based on three things transmitter power, receiver sensitivity and atmospheric conditions the first 2 can be controlled very easily.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[vlm]

It's a near field communication chip, which isn't easily readable from more than a few centimeters away.

Maybe you were trying to be reassuring, but what that actually means is the device absolutely won't trigger until the victim sits at the bus stop, or restaurant seat or whatever. If the IED goes off 500 feet down the road, no problemo unless its a suitcase nuke, but if it doesn't go off until you sit on the park bench, then you're pretty much screwed.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[vlm]

A bomb will also have a hard time to identify you.

Disagree. No response means no one is there and/or they're not German. Any response means there is a German, now do something (probably bad). You're arguing you don't know the state of Schrodingers cat. I'm arguing that knowing Schrodingers cat is present, is in itself a valuable datapoint.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

They just spoofed, they haven't talked to the TAG at all!

ISO14443-A and other NFC tags simply don't work like this:

You need a two way communication. From the reader to the tag, and from the tag to the reader. The ISO14443-A tag is not capable to actively send out answers. Instead it loads down the magnetic field that powers it. This load is measured on the side of the reader and interpreted as answers from the tag.

If I remember right the tag must be able to pull about 10% of energy out of the magnetic field to transmit data.

And this puts a simply physical constraint on the range:

You can't simply make the reader put out a stronger magnetic field. This would increase the range from the reader to the tag, but it would also make it almost impossible for the tag to answer because it can't remove that much energy anymore. If you lower the energy of the field the tag doesn't has enough power to operate.

The 15 cm

In the lab you can get a longer distance than 15 cm... Maybe up to half a meter or so. To do so you have to calibrate the resonant frequency of the tag and the reader so that they are almost perfectly coupled. And you have to do this in an RF shielded room because every disturbance in the RF field would interfere the transfer.

What the Defcon guys did was to listen to a running communication between a reader and a tag from afar. That is indeed possible up to such a range.. That will not tell you anything interesting except the fact that a tag was read because the first thing the pass does is to do a Diffie-Hellmann key exchange (part of the PACE protocol). Oh - you get the ID from the tag, but as I wrote earlier the ID is random ...

Not much gained..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffie%E2%80%93Hellman_key_exchange

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[couchslug]

"Unfortunately, they will also make perfect bomb triggers, when the target walks by."

Plinking Alfred Herrhausen (to use a German example) was quite the coup. RFID-triggered ordnance could be smaller and even more precise.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[Anonymous Coward]

Wait a minute, they bothered with state of the art crypto, but didn't bother with making it check certificates (i.e. have the government sign the cert of each device allowed to read the info)? I guess that actually wouldn't add much security as there would be no way to revoke certs, and an attacker could just get physical access to one reader and then be able to MITM everything. Actually, you could work around that by having the actual crypto run on a remote server which the reader device has a separate authenticated SSL connection to. Asking the reader to have internet access seems like a minor restriction.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[rcamans]

So you are saying if I sit on the bomb it goes off?
Didn't I see something like that with a toilet in a movie?

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[mrmeval]

High power high gain transceiver stuck right at the door of a building and looking like a brick with the bomb under the sidewalk or close by. It is feasible but so is sprinkling radioactive powder outside the targets home and having a Geiger counter set one off or sprinkling RFID 'dust' or...

In other words if someone is that determined to kill you, you will most likely be killed.

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[mjwalshe]

but the eveil google will not show thier house on the intertubes

Re:perfect bomb triggers

[LBt1st]

It's a near field communication chip, which isn't easily readable from more than a few centimeters away.

Yeah that's how it was intended, but as we all know things don't always work in the real world as they do on paper.

time to buy

[zerothink]

It's time to buy RFID-blocking cover/wallet/bag/whatever. Or feel free to have some fun with aluminum foil - http://www.rpi-polymath.com/ducttape/RFIDWallet.php

Re:time to buy

[MikeyVB]

For the curious, it takes approximately 4 layers of aluminum foil to block a scanner from activating the RFID signal when your Al lined wallet is point blank from a standard scanner.

(After receiving an RFID enabled ID card here in the Netherlands last year, I tested it on our office copy/scanner RFID reader, and then simply lined my wallet with double the number of layers it took to block the signal. Works like a charm!)

Re:time to buy

[drewhk]

All of my IDs and cards fit nicely in a metallic business card case. It's cheap, small, looks nice and blocks radio.

Re:time to buy

[Jeslijar]

Why not just put the ID in the microwave for a second like my last college professor does his passport?

Granted it could melt... but maybe it wouldn't be visibly damaged if only done for a second.

Re:time to buy

[Charliemopps]

I think I'd just microwave mine till it stopped working. Make the bastards have to type it in every time someone asked to see it and claim I had no idea why their shitty card never worked,

Re:time to buy

[agw]

Can you get already pre-foiled wallets? Market niche?

Re:time to buy

[Wowsers]

I tried your aluminium foil suggestion, but I don't think it works very well.... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tin_foil_hat

Re:time to buy

[Anonymous Coward]

... or just order one at DIFRwear. They also have transparent sleeves, so you can show your ID without allowing it to be scanned

Re:time to buy

[lxs]

The ögon card case is made from aluminium sheet with a plastic interior. I wonder if the gap between the halves is small enough to protect the cards inside from sniffing. I haven't tried it on mine yet.

Re:time to buy

[rossdee]

"it takes approximately 4 layers of aluminum foil"

Maybe aluminium would work better, after all this is EU where English is spelt correctly.

Just wondering would a thicker foil be better or would multiple layers of foil separated by a non-conductor (eg plastic)
Or a heavier metal (lead, silver, gold...)

Re:time to buy

[John Hasler]

> Or a heavier metal (lead, silver, gold...)

No. Steel. You want a magnetic material.

Re:time to buy

[rcamans]

um, you only tested it on standard public rfid receivers. Hackers / governments / criminals can make much better antennas for their rfid scanners, getting far greater range, even on foil sealed devices.
You would be far better off building and wearing an rfid jammer.

Re:time to buy

[Zerth]

It'd be better if the halves overlapped, but it will probably work. I use an aluminum cigarette case and my card doesn't work, even when the case is in physical(although not electrical) contact with the reader.

Re:time to buy

[Anonymous Coward]

You would have been a most useful friend to Winona Ryder a few years back, Mikey...

Re:time to buy

[Muad'Dave]

No. Steel. You want a magnetic material.

Being magnetic has nothing to do with it - you want a highly conductive metal to create a Faraday cage; silver and gold are excellent, but copper is not bad. Steel is poor.

Re:time to buy

[mhajicek]

More layers, separated by an insulating material. It's like nested Faraday cages. Copper foil would work best, since it's electrical conductivity that matters. The badguys can still read your card when you pull it out to use it though.

why not opt-out?

[rajanala83]

I'll have to get one at the end of the year, but don't want to. Why can't they make this new passport scheme opt-out? People can - and most probably will - sniff my ID via RFID; I just don''t see ANY advantages this new passport RFID will bring for me.

Re:why not opt-out?

[ZDRuX]

This has nothing to do with bringing any advantages to you, and I don't see why anyone in their right mind would assume otherwise.

Re:why not opt-out?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why wait until the end of the year? Get a "classic" non-biometric, non-RFID one now. It's 8 EUR instead of 28,80 EUR (22,80 EUR if you're less than 24 years old). Save money, protect your privacy.

Re:why not opt-out?

[Anonymous Coward]

its either that or theyll just tattoo your serial number on your arm, like the Nazis did some 70 years ago. Isnt it strange show the German votes comes around full circle...

tatoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Look on the bright side, at least they are not requiring tatooes with an embedded chip , oh wait .........

The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[Anonymous Coward]

Germans must be able to identify themselves with either a passport or an ID card. There is no obligation to have either of those with you at any time.

The new cards do not use classic RFID chips but near field communication, which is much harder to attack from a distance (if at all).

Anyone who wants to sit this out can get a new ID card before November. The old ID cards cost 8 EUR and are valid for 10 years.

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[think_nix]

Germans must be able to identify themselves with either a passport or an ID card. There is no obligation to have either of those with you at any time.

The new cards do not use classic RFID chips but near field communication, which is much harder to attack from a distance (if at all).

Anyone who wants to sit this out can get a new ID card before November. The old ID cards cost 8 EUR and are valid for 10 years.

I guess you have never lived in Germany and heard of Ausweispflicht ? Which by law requires any citizen to be able to identify his or her self. Even only being there on holiday as a visitor you must still be able to identify yourself , been there done that. The authorities do not take it lightly if you "forgot" your ID either, depending on the situation. Although I will credit you the sitting out part, if they get the new ID now then they can wait it out. Although didn't the Germans already implement biometrical Passports (not to be confused with ID cards)?

Anyways looking at http://www.personalausweisportal.de/ really is weird if you cannot speak German then I suggest translator of some sort . They talk about new "Identity Management" and "Online Identification functions" etc etc . Sounds more controlling/keep track than anything else. I really feel bad for the German's at times. But hey you know there is a saying: "The Germans will never complain or demonstrate to any problem because they is a sign saying it is forbidden"

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[Anonymous Coward]

"Ausweispflicht" means you have to have a passport or an ID card (You can have both, but you don't have to). You do not have to have either of them on you. Pissed off authorities are a fact of life, but they're not the law (yet). Public transport often requires a picture ID to be presented with a month pass. That is a contract thing and not related to the "Ausweispflicht".

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[think_nix]

Yeah I guess you are right:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausweispflicht

Only if they ask for it , interesting , but still..

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[think_nix]

Yeah I guess you are right:

http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausweispflicht

Only if they ask for it , interesting , but still..

Shit I meant this one (damn copy buffer) : http://bundesrecht.juris.de/persauswg/__1.html

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess you have never lived in Germany and heard of Ausweispflicht ? Which by law requires any citizen to be able to identify his or her self. Even only being there on holiday as a visitor you must still be able to identify yourself , been there done that. The authorities do not take it lightly if you "forgot" your ID either, depending on the situation. Although I will credit you the sitting out part, if they get the new ID now then they can wait it out. Although didn't the Germans already implement biometrical Passports (not to be confused with ID cards)?

Whoa, whoa, wait a minute. Yeah, there is Ausweispflicht in Germany. However (and please forgive me for mixing German and English here), this is not a Pflicht to carry your Ausweis at all times; rather, it's a Pflicht to ausweisen yourself when asked to. Carrying your Ausweis is the easiest way to do that, but it's not actually required you do that.

Put another way: unlike with, say, a driving license, which you actually have to CARRY when you operate a motor vehicle, you do not have to carry your ID card; it's not illegal to not do so, and there's no fines or anything. It just means that the police may detain you temporarily while determining your identity, so in practice, it makes sense to carry your ID card anyway.

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[RAMMS EIN]

``Sounds more controlling/keep track than anything else.''

I don't know what id would be for, _other_ than for tracking people.

The problem I have with the RFID chips is that, now, you can be tracked not only when you show your passport (or other id) to someone, but also without your consent or knowledge. Regardless of the official statements, these chips can be and have been read from meters away.

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[mwissel]

The authorities do not take it lightly if you "forgot" your ID either, depending on the situation.

Wrong, there is no actual problem with forgetting your ID, as there is no obligation to carry one with you - exception is the driving license when operating a vehicle. Actually the police may demand you to fetch your ID at home or whereever it may be, and they might demand to bring you there themselves when they think you might flee. But I think that only happens when you're in suspicion for something.

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[Internetuser1248]

But hey you know there is a saying: "The Germans will never complain or demonstrate to any problem because they is a sign saying it is forbidden"

That saying is not strictly true

Re:The ID cards are technically not mandatory

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't have one for a couple of years. The net result was a whopping fine of 10 Euros when I actually needed one.

Get a no2id t-shirt

[Colin Smith]

http://www.no2id.net/getInvolved/shop

And start lobbying your representatives.

Re:Get a no2id t-shirt

[Anonymous Coward]

lol
as if those representatives were actually involved in anything important.
The members of 'Bundesrat' are not really elected, they are chosen (but not by the people)...

The only chance is by resisting passively, like frying that rfid...

Re:Get a no2id t-shirt

[maxwell demon]

But the Bundesrat cannot, on its own, pass laws. The law-making entity is still the Bundestag which is elected by the people. Now a lot of laws additionally have to pass the Bundesrat, but those are laws which concern the right of the federal states. I'm pretty sure that details of the identity card are not included there, therefore the Bundestag should be able to decide on that alone.

Re:Get a no2id t-shirt

[mhajicek]

representatives.

I do not think that means what you think it means.

Proprietary Protocol

[Anonymous Coward]

The German ID card is using the BAC protocol as well, but only for the basic data which is printed on the front of the card, the picture and the name. Other fields are protected by a stronger proprietary protocol.

Proprietary? Does that mean that Germans are being forced to buy an object that they aren't allowed to know how to use?

Re:Proprietary Protocol

[RAMMS EIN]

You have that right. Letting people know how to use the chip would compromise security, you see. Don't believe the people who say the chip has already been broken. These weren't officially tasked to do so by the government, so their results don't count. Also, why are you asking questions about this in the first place? Do you want the boogeymen to win? This is for your own safety, man! How could you be against that?

Targetted advertising is more likely

[Colin Smith]

Walk past an e-paper advert board. It scans your ID, looks up your preferences and buying history and throws up a 20 foot high shot of a naked guy and directions to the local rubber fetish store.
 

Re:Targetted advertising is more likely

[Anonymous Coward]

I for one welcomes our new RFID scanning rubber fetish clad overlords

Re:Targetted advertising is more likely

[mrmeval]

That would be cool anyway. Just randomly show it and blare out some person's name randomly gleaned from homes within a 10 block radius. Or just limit it to cops, judges and polyticks.

No!

[OrangeCatholic]

>Early versions of the electronic passports, using RFID chips with a protocol called 'basic access control' (BAC), were successfully hacked by university researchers and security experts."

That's horrible! What are you going to do about this???

Awesome...

[Anonymous Coward]

I've always wanted to be a german.

And now i can be a bunch of them!

Re:Awesome...

[think_nix]

True to that check this out:

http://www.personalausweisportal.de/cln_164/DE/Neue-Moeglichkeiten/Online-Ausweisfunktion/online-ausweisfunktion_node.html

The new online functions! If you dont understand german try google translate, here a quick translation

Identification on the Internet and on machines can in the future be done with the new identity card. This is simple and safe as the presentation of your previous card today.
Even without being personally present you can use the online identity function (also: eID function) authenticate everywhere (where personalized services - are consequently offered and directly tailored to the individual user). With your new personal ID and your 6-digit PIN you can prove your identity in the electronic world simple, safe and reliable.

That is just the first paragraph , better than the Sunday comics !

Re:Awesome...

[Khyber]

ONLY six?

My bank PIN is 12 digits.

Six is going to be too easy to handle.

Re:Awesome...

[Jedi Alec]

So what's the big deal? The Netherlands has had a digital ID card for doing business with the government for years already. Now perhaps you enjoy standing in a line somewhere, but I prefer handling my business from the comfort of my chair, at any time of the day that is convenient for me and at a total lower cost to the taxpayer.

Now I don't quite see the point of RFID either, but being able to handle one's affairs over a distance sounds...convenient.

Re:Awesome...

[Anonymous Coward]

So what's the big deal? The Netherlands has had a digital ID card for doing business with the government for years already

Please enlighten me. Because for as far as I know, The Netherlands has:
- a chip on the new passports containing biometric data
- national account management for online government services (DigID)
- smartcard-based PKI infrastructure for government employees doing financial transactions
- a separate system for coordinating communication of medical records between healthcare officials (Elektronisch PatiëntenDossier, don't know the details of it)

But none of those systems are connected:
- you can't use the chip to authenticate yourself to officials, they still use the photo for that
- the passport is not used in DigID authentication
- there are no plans to replace the PKI-smartcards with additional data on the passport
- the EPD developed its own system because DigID was deemed not secure enough

Re:Awesome...

[owlstead]

No, the PIN is for the authentication to the card. The card can have counter measures when you try to log in too many times. If you have 3 attempts, for instance, you have a chance of 3 out of a million to use the card. That is probably enough to make sure that the card was not used by somebody not knowing the PIN.

You only need those kind of large PIN if you have an unlimited (or at least very high) number of attempts.

Re:Awesome...

[John Hasler]

Now perhaps you enjoy standing in a line somewhere...

Twice every decade or so? Not a big deal.

Now I don't quite see the point of RFID either, but being able to handle one's affairs over a distance sounds...convenient.

Others will find it convenient as well. Handling your affairs over a distance, that is.

Proprietary protocol? SURE!

[Frosty Piss]

The German ID card is using the BAC protocol as well, but only for the basic data which is printed on the front of the card, the picture and the name. Other fields are protected by a stronger proprietary protocol.

That's what they think. It'll be cracked within days or weeks.

Ihre RFID Bitte

[Anonymous Coward]

Danke !!

Ihre R F I D Bitte

D anke !!

Aolso, Ihre RFID Bitte

Dank e !!

Ihre RFID Bitte

Danke !!

Ihre RFID Bitte

Danke !!

Ihre RFID Bitte

HALT !!

Barcodes don't radiate information

[mangu]

This is just a replacement for the barcode, right?

Even if it were, it would be dangerous. Giving someone remote access to your passport/ID card number is a security risk by itself.

They already have your face, anyone can take a picture of your face without you knowing it. If they can create a fake document matching that face to the right document number that's a big step towards stealing your identity.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[LingNoi]

Not really. You could have a card with RFID which embeds a key that unlocks data in the database. Since governments have control over the database one wouldn't have to worry much their data being looked at by unauthorised staff and if the database was ever stolen only your physical card could unlock it.

Also there are benefits to having an ID card rather then a passport. One being you never run out of space for stamps and then have to spend lots of money on extending the pages or a new passport.

ID theft is probably the biggest issue but that could be overcome by a combination of embedded key, thumb print and personal password; or in other words, something you have, something you are and something you know.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[TheRaven64]

You could have a card with RFID which embeds a key that unlocks data in the database. Since governments have control over the database one wouldn't have to worry much their data being looked at by unauthorised staff and if the database was ever stolen only your physical card could unlock it.

You obviously have a very different government to mine. If it's in a government database in the UK, the odds are that copies of it will be posted to the wrong address on unencrypted DVD-Rs, left on hard drives on trains or in taxies, leaked to the press, or used by council employees for private purposes.

A better solution is not to store the information in either place. Store it on the passport in encrypted form and store the encryption key in the central database (or vice versa). You then need to both do a database query and scan the passport to have access to the data. If someone gets a copy of the database, it's no use to them without the passports. If someone steals a passport, they can't access the information on it.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[rvw]

A better solution is not to store the information in either place. Store it on the passport in encrypted form and store the encryption key in the central database (or vice versa). You then need to both do a database query and scan the passport to have access to the data. If someone gets a copy of the database, it's no use to them without the passports. If someone steals a passport, they can't access the information on it.

Yeah and what if you loose the passport? Is all your information lost then? That wouldn't be acceptable. So your solution sounds nice, but will never be implemented.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[TheRaven64]

Yeah and what if you loose the passport?

Then you need to apply for another one, just as you had to apply for the first one.

Is all your information lost then?

My passport doesn't appear to contain any unique information aside from the passport number. Things like my name, date of birth, nationality, and so on are all on other documents. If you lost your passport, then you'd have to provide all of this information again. The procedure would be no different to when you apply for your first passport.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[Dr_Barnowl]

Even better ; store the encryption key (encrypted by a password) AND the data on the card.

To enable it's authenticity to be checked, sign a hash of the data with an official government key.

Smart cards can quite happily generate and store an encryption key and never release it - the card does the decryption and releases the requested data when you provide your passphrase.

It's quite doable to have an ID card / medical record / whatever personal information system that doesn't require ANY central database of information. It's just like carrying around official papers, only they are a lot more secure and a great deal harder to forge than paper documents.

The problem is that various intelligence personnel all look at the potential for collecting data on their citizens and get a chubby semi hard-on. The giant central database of information, providing access to it, and securing it appropriately is by far the most difficult part of that kind of system to get right, and probably the main reason for implementation failure. A system that JUST consists of secured data on a smart card, and maybe a keyserver for PKI, is a great deal simpler to implement, and actually stands a chance of being useful within a decade.

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[TheRaven64]

Even better ; store the encryption key (encrypted by a password) AND the data on the card.

No, that doesn't help. Then, someone with access to just the passport can read all of the data - you may as well store it unencrypted. The point of storing the data and the keys in different places is that it makes the database and the passport both useless in isolation.

Smart cards can quite happily generate and store an encryption key and never release it - the card does the decryption and releases the requested data when you provide your passphrase.

And all such systems have been cracked. Some require a bit more technology to crack than others (e.g. cracking open the chip in sub-zero temperatures and poking it with an electron microscope), but what's the betting that the lowest bidder won't have some exploitable hole in their security?

Re:Barcodes don't radiate information

[mhajicek]

It doesn't matter how much or how little is stored on the card. If someone can remotely query your card, they can then have a device pretend to be your card. They can then tie you to a crime that they commit, simply by using your ID instead of theirs when traveling. They go free, you go to jail.

right, before Zee Germans get there

[roman_mir]

you'd think history would have taught them to maximize personal liberties, not to diminish them in any way? Oh well, there is still zeit fur packen zee bagen.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[rolfwind]

you'd think history would have taught them to maximize personal liberties, not to diminish them in any way? Oh well, there is still zeit fur packen zee bagen.

No, they look to the government for guidance still. It's in the character. They still don't have real freedom of speech there.

OTOH, if you look at what set of circumstances us Americans revolted against the King Of England for and how it is today, all you see is more government and taxes than they ever accepted in every aspect of our lives. And people constantly clamoring for more as a solution to their problems.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[maxwell demon]

It did, directly after the war. That's why the German constitution fortunately contains a lot of restrictions on what the state can do. And if you look at the amount of laws which had to be retracted due to being unconstitutional, otherwise we would be much worse off now.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[Tom]

No, they look to the government for guidance still. It's in the character. They still don't have real freedom of speech there.

So it is only "freedom" if it is identical to your version of freedom ?

Please, cut down the arrogance a few notches, you'll notice the rest of the world likes you a lot better if you don't go around all the time assuming that your way is the one and only true path to whatever.

Our freedom of speech (I'm german) is as real as yours. We just have some priorities differently. For example, we don't allow people to threaten abortion doctors with murder under the cover of "free speech". Our version of your "free speech" is called "freie Meinungsäußerung". That has three parts: Free, speech and opinion. What it means is you can freely express your opinion. If you leave the area of expressing your opinion - and "we'll kill you" isn't an opinion anymore - you may run into trouble.

And no, we don't look for the government for guidance. In fact, our current government is such a joke, anyone who does look to them for anything except satire is retarded. However, what we do is not share the ridiculous paranoia about the government that is visible in the US. We don't think anything done by the government is automatically evil and to be mistrusted. We view the government as an entity much like many others - capable of both good and evil.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[ultranova]

you'd think history would have taught them to maximize personal liberties, not to diminish them in any way?

Second World War was generations ago. The lessons have been forgotten, so authoritarianism and militarism are once again on the rise in Europe, and will once again lead to the world burning. That will be followed by the survivors being horrified of what they have seen and done, and swearing "never again", but a few generations later things will deteriorate again. That is the cycle of human history, and it cannot be broken, since no matter what lessons you might learn, your children won't, and their children certainly won't care.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[DoninIN]

Gee stereotype an entire nationality, all the wile differentiating them from "us" which I'm assuming here means you're a fellow American. That's usually a sign of a coherent or terribly positive argument. Also in this case your "us" is largely composed of relatives of your "them" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Census-2000-Data-Top-US-Ancestries-by-County.svg

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[roman_mir]

You are mistaken as to what is freedom of speech in USA, nobody is allowed to make direct threats of murder for example, but one can have an opinion that abortion doctors must be killed, it's an opinion.

Of-course one person's opinion may lead to another person's action, but the correct thing to do is to hold the one who takes action as the responsible party, not the one who says he has an opinion.

I am not American, in fact at this very moment I am in Germany, though I am Canadian, born in the former USSR.

I hold every single thing that government says or does as suspicious, I don't trust government at all, in any single one thing ever, and I am not an American.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[N!k0N]

I'm pretty sure the US Constitution does the same thing... but that's not stopping anyone now, is it?

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[cpghost]

However, the fundamental liberties encoded in the German Basic Law (it's not a Constitution in the US sense) have eroded substantially in the last decades, because, unlike the U.S. with is very reluctant to amend its Constitution, Germans love to modify their Grundgesetz regularly... mostly to make it worse, i.e. take one more liberty away.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[N!k0N]

That will be followed by the survivors being horrified of what they have seen and done, and swearing "never again", but a few generations later things will deteriorate again.

Sometimes it doesn't even take that long -- The Great War ends 1918, and WWII starts in 1939. Can't find the data for the early 20th century... though in the States (ca 2007 data) a "generation" is approx 25 years.

I, for one, had the honour of meeting a couple of soldiers from WWII -- one of whom being my wife's grandfather. I never got a chance to talk much about the war -- just some of the "big" things that they had done (Normandy, liberating some French town(s), etc) that they had received a medal or some other recognition for.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[Anonymous Coward]

So it is only "freedom" if it is identical to your version of freedom ?

Please, cut down the arrogance a few notches, you'll notice the rest of the world likes you a lot better if you don't go around all the time assuming that your way is the one and only true path to whatever.

Our freedom of speech (I'm german) is as real as yours.

I'm German too. There is no freedom of speech. Video games don't have blood, for one easy example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_speech_by_country#Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_Germany#East_Germany_.281945-1989.29

Our version of your "free speech" is called "freie Meinungsäußerung". That has three parts: Free, speech and opinion. What it means is you can freely express your opinion. If you leave the area of expressing your opinion - and "we'll kill you" isn't an opinion anymore - you may run into trouble.

Try saying "I think only 5 million jews died in the Holocaust" in public. You'll land in jail in Germany for that opinion. In the US, you'll get heckled but not by the Feds. Not that I advocate that opinion, except I believe people have a right to be stupid.

And no, we don't look for the government for guidance.

My father moved in the 1960s because he thought it was becoming a police state. I have never met people so ready to go to the local government for any stupid neighborly dispute as I have over there. In America, it's the exact opposite, most people want to avoid shit once government comes in. Though that is changing with Home Owner's Associations.

It's not even a national thing, but the human instinct for authority/hierarchies.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[rolfwind]

I'm both German and American and have lived in both countries roughly equally.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[gmthor]

You do realize that you don't have to carry it with you, do you?

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[roman_mir]

for now.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

The lessons have been forgotten, so authoritarianism and militarism are once again on the rise in Europe, and will once again lead to the world burning.

Having lived in Europe on and off, sadly, I can confirm this. Part of the problem is European arrogance: for more than two centuries, Americans have had to listen to Europeans about how superior their culture and political systems are, only to watch them self-destruct like clockwork. Europeans simply can't imagine that their supposedly superior culture leads to mass destruction and mass murder, again and again.

That is the cycle of human history, and it cannot be broken, since no matter what lessons you might learn, your children won't, and their children certainly won't care.

Other continents haven't been following this cycle. The US has had centuries of continuity and progress. South America and Africa don't have stability at all, but they don't have European delusions of grandeur either.

There is something uniquely wrong with European politics and European culture.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

Our freedom of speech (I'm german) is as real as yours.

Germany objectively has stronger restrictions on civil liberties than the US.

We just have some priorities differently.

German priorities were set by the allies after WWII. The primary goals were de-Nazificiation and prevention of a recurrence of WWII. Democratization and freedom were secondary concerns, merely means to an end. If Germany could have been pacified after WWII by turning it into a military dictatorship or splitting it up between its neighbors, I doubt any of the allies would have objected.

As it turns out, constructing a democracy based on the American model, but with some additional restrictions on free speech and religion, was be the better model for Germany. Giving Germans a stake and say in the process also turned out to be a good idea. That was coupled with military occupation and tight supervision of the German government until the 1990s (many important government posts could only be filled with US approval until 1990).

It's nice that German democracy has turned out as well as it has. Germans shouldn't make the mistake now, however, to present the construct that the allies essentially imposed after WWII as a model democracy for the rest of the world. Germans have never managed to construct a stable democracy themselves and Germany still doesn't have a long tradition of democracy or liberty.

We don't think anything done by the government is automatically evil and to be mistrusted. We view the government as an entity much like many others - capable of both good and evil.

The government is capable of both good and evil; and when it commits evil, millions of people suffer and maybe even die. That's why you need to distrust everything the government does: the cost of governmental failure are simply too high.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[owlstead]

I don't know, we live in a vastly different world than the ones before us. We are continuously confronted with what war achieves. Together with that, the introduction of the Euro means that we Europeans are very much in trouble together when we start a war with our neighbor. The history of the world is changing very rapidly, if there was any cycle it might well and truly be broken by now.

The most aggressive country by far is the US. It makes war with countries that never even threatened the US. It takes the drug war outside it's borders and destabilizes large parts of the world because of it (instead of ending their own problems with poverty). That the US does not have any wars inside of its borders (and outside of prisons) does not mean that there is no war there. So let the first country without sin cast the first stone.

The most troubling thing for me is the economic stability. If masses of people get out of work and there is mass poverty, then political correctness is the first to suffer (like in pre-Nazi Germany, were the nation went bankrupt after the first world war).

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[rcamans]

It is illegal to threaten anyone in America with murder or any other form of harm. You have been reading and believing too many anti-American rags. (all rags published in Europe, for example).
Cut down your own arrogance a few notches.

Your government (Germany) has been maximum evil overlords more than once. Why do you have the idea that they have changed? Maybe they have learned to be less obvious about it, and not get caught?

The American gov sucks big time, and will abuse any power that they can get their hands on, legally or illegally.
Your gov is the same.

The only difference is the morals and ethics of the people currently in the gov with access to these powers.
American gov employees are low on the morals scale.
I am sure Germans are similar. I think there is something about working for the gov, and military, that reduces morals, and attracts people with low morals, like our Bill Clinton, and a recent top gov official in Germany?

Comparing bad to bad just wastes time and energy. They are all bad. Get over it. Stop crowing that your bad gov is not as bad as ours.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[Anonymous Coward]

you'd think history would have taught them to maximize personal liberties, not to diminish them in any way? Oh well, there is still zeit fur packen zee bagen.

You'd think so, but that's not how history worked.

In reality, the same old elites are still in power that have always been. They viewed the Weimar republic and its (rather more free) democracy as an aberration, so when the nazis came about, they were quick to point out how the extensive freedom that existed in the Weimar republic had allowed Hitler to rise to power in the first place. The current Germany was then intentionally crippled in terms of liberty and freedom - officially to prevent it from happening again, but there's a good amount of good ol' authoritarianism in there, too.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[ultranova]

Other continents haven't been following this cycle. The US has had centuries of continuity and progress.

Bullshit. The US has fought constant wars for as long as it has existed. The difference is simply that it lacks a foe in its home continent who had the resources for a major war. Or, to put it even blunter: your progress has mainly depended on slaughtering the natives and stealing their land, and you aren't seeing this as similar to European wars because said natives lacked the ability to fight back effectively. Oh, and you did have a major Civil War too.

What was it you said about cultural arrogance again?

South America and Africa don't have stability at all, but they don't have European delusions of grandeur either.

So basically they aren't following the cycle because they're stuck in the Hell-on-Earth part of it. That doesn't exactly increase my confidence in humanity, you know.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

The US has fought constant wars for as long as it has existed.

Yes, it fought many of those wars against evil and repressive regimes. It fought many of those wars to ensure that Europe could remain democratic, instead of being swallowed up by the USSR. Fighting wars is not intrinsically wrong. More importantly, the US has remained a democracy throughout that entire time.

The difference is simply that it lacks a foe in its home continent who had the resources for a major war.

There are lots of reasons why Germany is the way it is; that doesn't change the observation that Germany is in no position on giving other nations advice on democracy or human rights.

Or, to put it even blunter: your progress has mainly depended on slaughtering the natives and stealing their land,

Huge numbers natives in the Americas were wiped out by disease, and others were slaughtered by European armies and settlers before the US was even founded. Much of the Indian territories were considered British property and ceded to the US by the British. Once the US was founded, it tried to cope with the mess that European governments had left behind as best it could. The US made plenty of mistakes along the way, but compared to how European governments continued to mistreat native peoples around the world, the US was progressive. Germany itself was still oppressing and slaughtering natives in its colonies until 1920, when the Treaty of Versailles finally put a stop to it.

The root of the evil in the plight of the native Americans was European colonialism and European attitudes.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

Together with that, the introduction of the Euro means that we Europeans are very much in trouble together when we start a war with our neighbor. The history of the world is changing very rapidly, if there was any cycle it might well and truly be broken by now.

It may be broken, but not in a good way. Instead of a conflagration of war, Europe may just get permanently stuck at the totalitarian or fascist stage.

The most aggressive country by far is the US. It makes war with countries that never even threatened the US.

That's because after WWII, the US was the only nation that had the economic and military power to ensure that Europe wouldn't be overrun by the USSR.

That the US does not have any wars inside of its borders (and outside of prisons) does not mean that there is no war there.

So? War is not intrinsically wrong. Most of the wars that the US has engaged in have been in defense of market economies and democracy, and in ensuring the access to the raw materials that Europe and the US need. Some of the wars have been unjust, more have been unwise, but unlike European nations, the US has not been trying to build an empire, and it has generally respected the right to self-determination.

The most troubling thing for me is the economic stability. If masses of people get out of work and there is mass poverty, then political correctness is the first to suffer (like in pre-Nazi Germany, were the nation went bankrupt after the first world war).

The US had its Great Depression and got through it without devolving into fascism; somehow, it seems to be resilient. It is possible that US democracy is starting to fall apart, under the strains of military engagements, social tensions, and corporate power. But things seem no worse than a century ago.

It's Germany you should worry about. No German democracy has survived a major economic crises yet, and the current German democracy has never had to face any serious economic problems. And, tellingly, as German democracy was falling apart a century ago, you got the same kind of anti-American rhetoric and demagoguery that's coming out of Germany today.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[drsmithy]

The US has had centuries of continuity and progress.

The US is simply lucky enough to be able to export (most of) its conflicts. Which it has been doing with consistency and enthusiasm.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[owlstead]

"It may be broken, but not in a good way. Instead of a conflagration of war, Europe may just get permanently stuck at the totalitarian or fascist stage."

Huh, where do you see this happening? In the Netherlands it might be the most pronounced, but it's certainly not at the stage where we should overly worry.

"That's because after WWII, the US was the only nation that had the economic and military power to ensure that Europe wouldn't be overrun by the USSR."

That's some time ago, and certainly the USA would have been better off not going into Asia to defend that part of the world against communism.

"So? War is not intrinsically wrong. Most of the wars that the US has engaged in have been in defense of market economies and democracy, and in ensuring the access to the raw materials that Europe and the US need. Some of the wars have been unjust, more have been unwise, but unlike European nations, the US has not been trying to build an empire, and it has generally respected the right to self-determination."

Defense of market economies? Access to raw materials? Since when do countries have the right to the raw materials in other countries? Not trying to build an empire? Only for as long as US interests are not harmed. It's just that your administrators are the CIA.

"The US had its Great Depression and got through it without devolving into fascism; somehow, it seems to be resilient. It is possible that US democracy is starting to fall apart, under the strains of military engagements, social tensions, and corporate power. But things seem no worse than a century ago."

I believe that during the great depression there was quite a lot of finger pointing and people being abused in very serious ways. I think I just saw a film about that, actually. That it was kept within the US is of course better than starting a war with the neighbors. And don't forget that that is less hard if your neighbors only include Mexico & Canada - who in all probability did not have anything to do with the great depression in the first place.

"It's Germany you should worry about. No German democracy has survived a major economic crises yet, and the current German democracy has never had to face any serious economic problems. And, tellingly, as German democracy was falling apart a century ago, you got the same kind of anti-American rhetoric and demagoguery that's coming out of Germany today."

Most anti-American rhetoric I've heard from Germans is that they disagree with the wars fought by America. Actually, I think it is the case that the US has forgotten much more about WW II than the Germans. Certainly the wars they are fighting now should have never been fought. Just forcefully bending everything to the capitalist ideas is not a good idea at all - especially now these ideas are leading us into deeper and deeper trouble.

The next wars (and, in Africa, the current wars) won't be about fascism, they will be about natural resources. Unless we get wise and stop them from happening.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

Defense of market economies? Access to raw materials? Since when do countries have the right to the raw materials in other countries?

You tell me: Europe held on to its colonies through much of the 20th century. And today, European companies are as much exploiting and oppressing populations in Africa and Asia as American companies are. And European economies are dependent on those raw materials to this day.

Not trying to build an empire? Only for as long as US interests are not harmed. It's just that your administrators are the CIA.

Yes, the US does impose requirements on markets and political systems and backs that up with military power. If the US didn't do that, you could kiss the G8 economies--including Germany's--good-bye. It's not a perfect system, but it certainly beats colonialism and the British and French empires.

Most anti-American rhetoric I've heard from Germans is that they disagree with the wars fought by America.

Well, it's easy for Germany to advocate pacifism, with tens of thousands of US troops and missiles guaranteeing its security. Where do you think Germany would be today if the allies had simply taking reparations and then withdrawn after WWII? Where do you think the German economy would be if the US didn't keep the oil flowing from the Middle East?

The next wars (and, in Africa, the current wars) won't be about fascism, they will be about natural resources.

Most wars are about natural resources.

Unless we get wise and stop them from happening.

Germany is totally dependent on imports of raw materials. The US isn't going to let the German economy slide into chaos because of resource shortages, not out of any love for the Germans, but because the economic and political consequences would be catastrophic.

If you want to stop those wars from happening, figure out how Germany can keep its economy alive and its democracy going without the US having to ensure a steady supply of raw materials. Until then, don't bite the hand that feeds you.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[yyxx]

The US is simply lucky enough to be able to export (most of) its conflicts. Which it has been doing with consistency and enthusiasm.

Oh, get real. Britain and France had oppressive and vicious colonial empires until after WWII, and they only stopped because they couldn't keep them together anymore. Let's not even get into Germany's sordid history of colonialism and war.

There is nothing even remotely comparable on that scale in US history. When the US has conquered territory, it has usually given people citizenship and often a choice of independence. Most US conflicts since WWII have been about trying to keep the western economic and political system together and cleaning up after the mess that European colonialism left behind.

Re:right, before Zee Germans get there

[Anonymous Coward]

Our freedom of speech (I'm german) is as real as yours. We just have some priorities differently. [...] What it means is you can freely express your opinion.

I thought that displaying the swastika was still illegal in Germany. Wanting Nazism back may be stupid, but it's an opinion, isn't it?

In any case, there's a more fundamental point - if you're prevented from saying certain things (eg political dissidence, death threats) then you don't have free speech. It's pretty obvious, simply from the term: "free speech" is speech that is free of restrictions. Of course, you may decide that free speech isn't actually desirable; that allowing people to freely make death threats would be more of a problem than the censorship required to prevent them from doing so.

The US started it

[rolfwind]

After 9/11, the US mandated biometric passports for all (if you wanted to enter the US).

Under legislation introduced after the September 11th attacks, the United States has tightened security measures for foreign tourists entering its country. The latest measure requires that by 2012, every traveler entering the United States who is part of the visa-waiver program must have a biometric passport or be forced to apply for a visa. ... ...
Initially, Washington gave a 2006 deadline for the 27 countries in the EU and other visa-waiver countries such as Norway, Iceland and Switzerland, but then pushed the date back to June of this year to give these countries more time to prepare the technology needed to issue the biometric passports. The US State Department started introducing e-passports in 2006 and every passport holder in the US is projected to have one by 2017.

Re:The US started it

[rolfwind]

Oh, I guess a source would be helpful ;)

http://www.alternet.org/story/142239/will_biometric_passports_lead_to_a_state_of_constant_surveillance/

Re:The US started it

[Jane Q. Public]

Yes, but the law also states that a passport's RFID malfunctions, the passport is still legal. 10 seconds in the microwave is just about right.

Re:The US started it

[mhajicek]

But the passports are being manufactured in Taiwan to save costs. No potential for terrorist abuse there, right?

Re:The US started it

[steveg]

The burn mark where the RFID chip died might look a little suspicious.

Much better to bend your passport over a table edge, etc.

On the BAC thing...

[Wdi]

This is the standard required by US immigration for foreign biometric passports.

And only with these you can take advantage of visa-waiver (minus ESTA, minus new tourism support fee) entry into the US.

So either your passport supports this, or you can make an appointment weeks in advance at a select US consulate in a city only a few hundred kilometers away if you want to travel.

Re:On the BAC thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Personally I've looked at the paranoia inherent in the current state of government xenophobia, and decided I'd rather stay home than submit to the zealotry that's the mandatory side dish to visit with a random offer of go away and never come back depending on whether the border guard feels like googling today. So I won't go there, possibly wonderful normal people notwithstanding. Sorry people, I'll stay home.

Except that, thanks to my spineless government, it gets home to roost here too. So now I have to carry, every day and every time I step outside, by law, an RFIDed ID card with biometrics and coupled to a database with fingerprints and far too much other info. It's the first thing the cops demand when they stop you regardless of the why. The banks must take a copy and store it with all your accounts. It's kept on file for the revenue service. It's coupled, therefore, to each PIN bank card transaction. The police are dragnet happy in their investigations--most tapped country in the world, but it doesn't stop at phone taps. They (the national bank and friends) are busy phasing out cash, so you *have* to use your bank card for ever more things. And now, add RFID. These western governments thank the USA for requiring RFID every day. It's such a wonderful excuse to shaft the people. How very democratic and such a beacon of individual freedom.

Some countries (but very few) offer a choice: Either a passport with RFID, or a cheaper one without. I would've taken the latter, given the choice, but my country (supposedly renowned for freedom and tolerance) doesn't give me any choice. It makes me want to puke.

Re:On the BAC thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

You forgot the third option; Fuck the US and its draconian immigration policies and never go there again. Works for me so far.
 
Captcha: Outrages.

Re:On the BAC thing...

[yyxx]

You forgot the third option; Fuck the US and its draconian immigration policies and never go there again. Works for me so far.

European, Asian, and Australian policies are no less draconian. They may seem a little less draconian to you at the border, but that's because those governments can track and check you anywhere once you're in the country.

Re:On the BAC thing...

[slart42]

This is correct - and it is the reason (or at least a reason) that our passports have had the mentioned RFID chips for a handful of years now. However, what is new is that the national ID cards will have the same RFID chip implanted. These will not let you travel to the US anyways, and are much more commonly carried around by people in everyday situations.

Re:On the BAC thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

BAC is optional in the ICAO/ISO standard, although I don't know of any country not implementing it. Every passport chip is supporting it anyway, there is no reason to not use it. If you need to use a sleeve, you can still use a sleeve. *Countries* do have to have a biometric passport program though for their citizens to enter the US under the visa waiver program. The ICAO standard requires the use of a Full Frontal Image (FFI) and passive authentication (a CMS digital signature over the datagroups including the FFI).

Re:On the BAC thing...

[Anonymous Coward]

Or you could just not bother going to America ever again...

Ausweis bitte.

[Anonymous Coward]

http://resources.metapress.com/pdf-preview.axd?code=v080783k2j05t343&size=largest

A little bit of perspective...

[k.a.f.]

The federal ID card is not "mandatory" in any sense except that you may have to show it for certain very fundamental occasions, notably voting. (May have to show, I should add - the last two federal elections I wasn't even asked for the ID card, just for my voter's notification.) You have to actively go out, apply for an ID card and pay the fee to get one. You can live a long and productive live and never use your ID at all, unless you're a lawyer by profession or get arrested a lot... Also, the new chip ID will be issued starting in September - it will be a long time until even a majority has one. I got an old-style ID in July, so I'm good until 2020, and even then I won't give my fingerprint for it, that's an optional feature (it's only required for international passports).

So, overall - yeah, this is a deal, but it's a lot less big a deal than the summary makes it sound like.

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[agw]

You have to actively go out, apply for an ID card and pay the fee to get one. You can live a long and productive live and never use your ID at all, unless you're a lawyer by profession or get arrested a lot...

Not quite. You will have to use it if you want to get a bank account (and I assuem you want one). If you're younger, you will have to use it to get a driver's license, probably to sign contracts, to get into music clubs late night, to get alcohol, even to play the lottery and of course everytime you fly within the EU.

So I say you can live a long and productive live alone in the mountains and never use your ID at all.

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[Anonymous Coward]

Hu?
Okay, bank account, I see that?
But the other stuff?
That is all about age verification.
As long as you have ANY document (or look way old enought) you will not
need your ID for that

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[Anonymous Coward]

Bank account? yup.
Drivers license? yup.
Sign Contracts? Usually no. The other party can require any kind of proof of identity, but that's really just a term of the contract.
Get into music clubs? Get alcohol? Gambling? All those by law require proof of age, and usually any kind of govt-issued photo id w/ birth date will do.
Flying? Pretty much every border crossing used to require a passport, only needing a id card is an actual improvement there.
Oh, and you forgot getting a prepaid mobile SIM. ID card required for that one, too...

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[Anonymous Coward]

> "So, overall - yeah, this is a deal, but it's a lot less big a deal than the ..."

Yup, nothing like a little creeping incrementalism.

Please meet Mr. Overton:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overton_window

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[gnasher719]

ou can live a long and productive live and never use your ID at all, unless you're a lawyer by profession or get arrested a lot...

Interesting. In Britain, you can't get a new job without showing a passport, because the employer has to check that you have the right to work there and are not an illegal immigrant, asylum seeker etc.

Re:A little bit of perspective...

[rcamans]

um, you won't INTENTIONALLY give your fingerprint for it, but if they want your fingerprint, or DNA, there is nothing you can do to stop them from getting it, except die. Even then, they can get it, but won't need it.

Outsourced to the Netherlands

[shikaisi]

I find the most intriguing part of this whole thing is the decision to outsource the chips to a Dutch company. I wonder how long it will be before all the RFIDs fail and send only a message saying "Give us our bikes back".

Re:Outsourced to the Netherlands

[Anonymous Coward]

I find the most intriguing part of this whole thing is the decision to outsource the chips to a Dutch company

NXP is the research division (now independent) of Philips, still considered to be one of the world's leading companies in the electronics department. It would be equally intriguing to see European governments turning to a certain US-based software company for their desktop software.

This is the same company responsible for the Mifare series of travel cards, which are used in the London Underground and Dutch public transportation. And in Moscow, Bucharest, (all of) Slovakia, Seattle (WA), Minneapolis (MN), Boston (MA), Brisbane, Melbourne, Montreal, ...

NXP = Philips

[Anonymous Coward]

And for those who are unfamiliar with the names of chipmakers:

NXP = Philips
Freescale = Motorola

I think most of the others keep the same name on the semiconductor division as on the rest of the company.

Re:NXP = Philips

[owlstead]

Infineon = Siemens?

The trouble with the IC market is that it is rather volatile. So larger companies tend to separate themselves from the IC dept to keep the shareholders happy who don't like fluctuating stock. So it probably makes more sense to say that these companies were founded by their respective parents.

Punch Cards

[Anonymous Coward]

If they want speed and accuracy, why don't they just design a card with a bit of memory in it, and little connection tabs [like on SD Cards] at one end.
They just need to punch it in, and requires a special card reader, and would possibly more secure [until the machines are Reverse Engineered, but even then, physical access to the card would be required ...Just a thought.

You're lucky!

[AnonymousClown]

Be glad - I googled hard for implied Godwin and couldn't find anything. So you're lucky and I can't say any pedantic shit about your comment and Godwin.

*Points two fingers at eyes and then one at you*

Welcome to prison in the community

[Anonymous Coward]

The Nazis would have a field day with today's technology (and are having). No need for the concentration camps when the technology exists to keep tabs on the whole population.

They have you right where they want you, under their supervision, under control, 24 hours a day, every transaction logged, every email and phone call checked.

Of course, if you are content being a milche cow you will probably just carry on chewing the cud wondering what all the fuss is about.

In any case, you will do nothing to stop it and they know it.

Mythbusters - RFID

[object404]

Adam Savage's talk on the 2008 Hackers on Planet Earth (HOPE) conference on why Mythbusters was forced to not do the "how easy it is to hack RFID tags" episode is very, very interesting.

Re:Mythbusters - RFID

[Anonymous Coward]

Makes sense, they may, at some point, come up with an encrypted, unhackable RFID system, but right now, they're rolling out prototype systems (which is wrong) and if they (rightfully) get a reputation as being insecure and easy to hack, it'll stick and kill the technology.

Re:Mythbusters - RFID

[mhajicek]

No, they never will. Nothing is unhackable. Some things are just harder to hack than others.

OMG I live in Germany

[Anonymous Coward]

I live in Germany. Many people do not want them !
The only reason they are introduced is because the old people in the Government see the benefits of RFIDs without seeing safe alternatives. They want to be progressive and to save money in the processes where IDs are required.

Some say that the company that makes this IDs paid someone.
The left-minded people spread stickers in the toilets where they compare RFIDs to various dictatorships from the past.

The CCC.de proposed to break the RFID chip if you get one.
epSos.de proposed to wrap all passports in metallic foil or put it into metallic purses.

I wish they would have used bar-code scanning for passports instead of this intrusive method.

Fry it

[mwissel]

What TFA forgets to mention is, that the ID card remains valid when you kill the RFID chip, as it still allows a person to be identified. Also, the fingerprint is a voluntary information to be stored. Most people won't know or bother and just let them store it anyway, though. For my fellow citizens: get yourself a new ID card w/o RFID just now (it is only a few Euros more expensive when you "loose" your current ID). If you have to get, for some reasons, an ID card with RFID on it, just put it in the microwave oven for a minute or so. Chaos Computer Club has proven this to kill the chip reliably.

Re:Fry it

[elewton]

Since I enjoy microwaving things, I support this proposal.

So These are..

[Anonymous Coward]

RFIDID's? Somehow the extra "ID" seems redundant..

God bless America!

[stevegee58]

Thank goodness we don't have a national ID card here. It's one of the first steps to setting up a police state.

Re:God bless America!

[metalligoth]

Yes you do. I have two of them in my wallet right now.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/REAL_ID_Act

Re:God bless America!

[stevegee58]

If someone would like to untroll me, I'd appreciate it.

The American "real ID" is not the same as European-style national ID cards. Americans are NOT required to carry ID at all times. Driver's Licenses are ONLY required to be carried while you are driving.
In the US, I am free to walk down the street with no ID on me. I cannot be stopped at random and ordered to present my papers. Even if I am stopped on the street for some probable cause, I am STILL not required to have or show ID.

Re:God bless America!

[Shoe Puppet]

Americans are NOT required to carry ID at all times.

Neither are us Germans (yet), we only have to own one. Most people do carry it, though.

Re:God bless America!

[ibsteve2u]

No problem. We'll just cross-reference that RFID tag inside that CD jewel case in your laptop case (or in the laptop) to the credit or debit card you used at Wal*Mart, and follow you that way.

Some of the RFID tags I have upstairs are teeeeeny.

Re:God bless America!

[dbcad7]

Although you may not be a troll, your information comes from bad movies, or old ones maybe.. Don't know.. If you could get past a little paranoia, and sense of superiority, and actually travel to Europe.. I think you would be shocked at how wrong your view of the world is.

Re:God bless America!

[metalligoth]

According to a Supreme Court decision, in every state you are required to show your drivers license or state ID if requested by a peace officer. (Hiibel v. Sixth Judicial District Court of Nevada, 2004)

Re:God bless America!

[stevegee58]

I'm no lawyer, but everything I've read indicates the contrary.

Re:God bless America!

[stevegee58]

You may be right about paranoia. This whole business going on in Arizona with checking immigration status has me wound up. They call it the "papers, please" law.

Re:God bless America!

[stevegee58]

Interesting. So if a state has a law where they can demand identification, you apparently do have to verbally tell your name but nothing else.
I have to say I don't like it a bit.

Re:Who woulda thunk it (Idiocracy)

[Skylinux]

IPPA Computer: Welcome to the Identity Processsing Program of Uhmerica! Please insert your forearm into the forearm receptacle!
IPPA Computer: Thank you! Please speak your name as it appears on your current federal identity card, document G24L8!
Pvt. Joe Bowers: I'm not sure if...
IPPA Computer: You have entered the name "Not Sure." Is this correct, Not Sure?
Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, it's not correct...
IPPA Computer: Thank you! "Not" is correct. Is "Sure" correct?
Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, it's not, my name is Joe...
IPPA Computer: You have already confirmed your first name is "Not." Please confirm your last name, "Sure."
Pvt. Joe Bowers: My last name is not "Sure!"
IPPA Computer: Thank you, Not Sure!
Pvt. Joe Bowers: No, what I mean is my name is Joe...
IPPA Computer: Confirmation is complete. Please wait while I tattoo your new identity on your arm!

The Translation...

[Anonymous Coward]

For those who don't speak German: "Good morning, Mrs. Smith." "Uh, you know me?" "No, but you have your card here, I think you want to pay for your holiday!?" "How do you know?" "Well, when you came here, our security software, has reported that you were just in the travel agency."

Back on-topic...

[BrokenHalo]

In any case, getting back to the topic of embedded RFID chips: wouldn't a couple of minutes in the microwave put paid to them?

COUGH!! I just inhaled my morning coffee.

[crovira]

I just hope you're proud of yourself...

Actually its "Minority Report" all over again...

Imagine NEVER AGAIN being able to do anything you're ashamed of.

Be PROUD of being kinky, 'cause EVERYBODY's gonna know.

Re:COUGH!! I just inhaled my morning coffee.

[mhajicek]

I'll just remotely copy your ID to use when taking mass transit to the drug-dealer district.

If your food if full of preservatives ...

[crovira]

you'll get fat.

One of the problems that the various FDAs the world over have caused with all of the pesticides and preservatives they mandate that the food industry use at every step of the processing chain is that the food not degrade at any point.

Obesity results when the LAST point in the chain, ME and THEE folks, doesn't degrade the food either. It just sits there, on our hips, waists and in our blood streams, turning into toxic, insoluble fats.

Stay as far away from processed food as possible and you'll live a healthier life.

The FDAa are not your protectors.

They're there for Agribusiness's sake, by maximizing self life.

That YOU die fat, unhealthy and miserable doesn't enter into it...

Re:If your food if full of preservatives ...

[blueg3]

What kind of crazy ginned this up? The FDA doesn't mandate the use of preservatives. Fats aren't toxic, though they are insoluble in water.

progress

[Anonymous Coward]

The new card allows German authorities to identify people with speed and accuracy, the government said.

German authorities can now identify Jews and homosexuals from a distance and in a crowd, simply by using an RFID scanner. And they can do this without all those annoying colored triangles.

Microwave?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will I get into trouble if my 8 year old daughter "accidentally" puts my ID card in the microwave?

More importantly, will it burn my house down?

-Anonymer Feigling

Re:Microwave?

[Shoe Puppet]

You'll probably burn the card and destroy the microwave. There's a gadget called "RFID zapper", though, which destroys RFID tags leaving the card or passport intact: Link

facts, not stereotyping

[yyxx]

What matters for the us/them distinction in this case is the history and culture of democracy and liberty. The US has more than two centuries of uninterrupted democratic governance. In the same period, Germany has had two failed democracies, a monarchy, a fascist state, a military dictatorship, and a communist state. In fact, the reason there are so many Americans of German ancestry is that so many Germans wanted to escape the chaos and repression they were experiencing in Germany.

Pointing out that Germany has had problems with democracy and liberty is not "stereotyping an entire nationality", it's a historical fact about a nation. And pointing out restrictions on freedom of speech and other liberties, and the fact that these are politically viable, is not stereotyping, it's a political fact about a political entity.

Re:Who woulda thunk it (Idiocracy)

[rcamans]

Beep.
Electronic tattoo completed.
Next, please

Look, an astroturfer

[Anonymous Coward]

How does this even get modded up? Are slashdotters that uninformed?

The standard requires the chip interaction to work at least up to 20cm distance. That doesn't mean it stops working at 21cm. In the same way the car whisperer guys talked to bluetooth carkits kilometres away that was only supposed to work up to ten metres, you can stretch RFID to at least 20 metres. In fact, that demonstration was why USA RFID passports come with tin foil embedded. And you only need a metre or two for a detonator to go off.

Before you think that's alright then: Other governments don't provide that tin foil at all, still denying the problem.

The chip is still uniquely addressable every time. You don't need to get the mark's name from his ID card (you've done your homework), and you can figure out what RFID tags he's carrying even on a busy street by following him long enough, like how cars find their own RFIDed tyre pressure meters.

As to BAC vs PACE, I don't really care. Broken by design is BAD, and I don't want RFID in my ID cards at all. No, fixing it up with spit and baling wire, excuse me, tin foil, is not good enough. For my privacy and security both, ID needs to not be readable without me even noticing. Same goes for RFID payments and a whole raft of other things. I want proper design, not this new technology vendor solution looking for a problem pushing jerkfest. It's sticky man. Get me a clean card already.

Re:Look, an astroturfer

[Anonymous Coward]

The US passport *card* is using a rather different method of communication including a completely different frequency range, mister uninformed. There is no standard reader on earth that can read ISO 14443 based cards from 20 cm. Most only go up to 5 CM. With all the power required by the crypto protocols, you are pretty lucky if you get that.

Re:Look, an astroturfer

[mhajicek]

Who says the reader has to be standard?

All this paranoia is really overblown

[Anonymous Coward]

Aparently for the moment these ID cards will only be required for Jewish people...

I ain't crazy.

[crovira]

The FDA definitely controls and mandates the use of preservatives, just like they control the use of food coloring. (Remember the stink over red dye #2? Its was fine with the FDA, but the medical profession said it was carcinogenic. Eventually, eventually, the doctors won out.)

Its going international in a document called the "Codex Alimentarius". Google it.

By the way, fats can be toxic if they're full of toxins. (Like tobacco smoke was good for you and it helped with cold sores. I don't know anybody who believed that.)

You're being led like a lamb to slaughter by your own inability to pay attention.

Live fast, die young and leave a good looking corpse, because its no fun when the "D" in the FDA gets to you and your blood pressure gets elevated from from all the food you've eaten that was regulated by the "F" in the FDA.

I like to eat FOOD, not shit from a chemistry set.

You won't be able to Spam anymore...

[crovira]

My IPv6 address will deny the handshake to the SMTP server and your message won't get through. (That's only ONE use IPv6 addresses.)

My devices will be tied to ME through a registration process and if the get stolen they all become useless to anybody else (and report their exact location when asked to by a police server. Theft only works if you can get away with it. With IPv6 every grain of sand on the beach can be an active responder, 1.8^19 many of them.

Soon you won't be able to get away with SQUAT!

Is this good? Is this bad? Bit of both really but we're all going to go through a whole lot of changes.