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Microsoft Claims 'We Love Open Source'

jbrodkin writes "Everyone in the Linux world remembers Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer's famous comment in 2001 that Linux is a 'cancer' that threatened Microsoft's intellectual property. While Microsoft hasn't formally rescinded its declaration that Linux violates its patents, at least one Microsoft executive admits that the company's earlier battle stance was a mistake. Microsoft wants the world to understand, whatever its issues with Linux, it no longer has any gripe toward open source."

37 of 464 comments (clear)

  1. Meet the 4 stages by suso · · Score: 5, Insightful

    “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.” -- Gandhi

    We've already gone through the first 3 stages over the past 15 years. And just so you're not confused, winning != world domination.

    1. Re:Meet the 4 stages by masmullin · · Score: 4, Funny

      winning != world domination.

      I for one... oh wait, what? really... damnit!

    2. Re:Meet the 4 stages by HermMunster · · Score: 5, Informative

      Embrace, extend, extinguish.

      Never forget. Microsoft has never helped open source. They have only contributed to their own version of it, which is very much unlike open source as it was defined 10+ years ago.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    3. Re:Meet the 4 stages by drewhk · · Score: 5, Funny

      1. First they ignore you
      2. then they laugh at you,
      3. then they fight you,
      4. then you quote Gandhi
      5. ???
      6. Profit

    4. Re:Meet the 4 stages by HermMunster · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The assumption is that Open Source would never have been created, that there'd be no advancement, that the world needed a Microsoft to foster a competitive environment.

      I followed the industry from the very beginnings of Microsoft and have been part of that industry for nearly 3 decades. What I can say is that had it not been for Microsoft the industry would be much bigger, more competition would have been fostered, greater improvements in the computer and interface would have been made, there'd be more markets and more competitors in each market, which easily would have dwarfed what Microsoft "might" have done in the off-hand way you describe. I give them no credit.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    5. Re:Meet the 4 stages by CAIMLAS · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I thought the Four Stages of Microsoft were:

      1) Ignore
      1a) while quietly fighting in the dark
      2) Embrace
      3) Extend
      4) Extinguish

      We're well into #2 right now. All the efforts to "embrace" have done nothing in the long run but help Microsoft further, while curtailing competition: Mono is still nowhere near viable, and neither is Samba 4. Novell is stumbling. So-called open projects Microsoft has released or contributed have only gone to fuel their closed technologies, contributing nothing substantial to the IT environment as a whole. Their "embrace" has solely been a token gesture.

      Side thought: Wouldn't it be funny if Microsoft released a Linux-based phone?

      --
      ~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
    6. Re:Meet the 4 stages by marcello_dl · · Score: 4, Informative

      Your argument is as useful as "War helps camaraderie".

      Please get a lil dose of actual impact of Microsoft on computing experience instead.

      --
      ---- MISSING MISCELLANEOUS DATA SEGMENT --- [sigdash] trolololol
    7. Re:Meet the 4 stages by massysett · · Score: 4, Informative

      Microsoft Research pays people to work on Haskell and the leading Haskell compiler, GHC. GHC is licensed under the BSD license, which is "free" and "open source" by any definition.

      To say this company has "never" helped open source is a bit extreme. Like any profit-making entity, it helps open source when doing so is in Microsoft's interest.

    8. Re:Meet the 4 stages by Arthur+Grumbine · · Score: 4, Funny

      1. First they ignore you
      2. then they laugh at you,
      3. then they fight you,
      4. then you quote Gandhi
      5. ???
      6. Profit

      First they came for the historical-figure quoters, and I did not speak up, because I did not quote historical figures.
      Then they came for the South-Park-quoters, and I did not speak up, because The Simpsons already did that.
      Then they came for those who Godwin threads, but there were no mod points left to mod me up.

      --
      Now that I think about it, I'm pretty sure everything I just said is completely wrong.
    9. Re:Meet the 4 stages by maiki · · Score: 5, Funny

      Ignore, Embrace, Extend, Extinguish... so THIS is what IEEE stands for?

    10. Re:Meet the 4 stages by jrumney · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Never forget. Microsoft has never helped open source.

      They have helped open source in the past, when it suited them. The original port of GNU Emacs to Windows NT was done by interns at Microsoft to show that real Unix software could be easily ported to their new OS.

    11. Re:Meet the 4 stages by HermMunster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Who's the Ford today (equaling the Ford of the past)? Who's the Standard Oil today? Certainly no American company.

      And, it is total fiction that we'd have some other company doing the same thing. Microsoft got where it was by abusing it's monopoly power. We all know that. If we didn't have a Microsoft we'd have more markets with more players in each market and competition would be greater providing us with more innovative products propelling computing to a much more sane plateau.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    12. Re:Meet the 4 stages by ciggieposeur · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If you've been here 30 years then you'll know that the various Eternal Septembers were unavoidable. GUI was going to come to wipe out the more efficient text interfaces; personal computers would have to climb the long slog to mainframe-like architecture one baby step at a time; the network effect was destined to come along and wipe out whole sectors of competition in word processors, spreadsheets, operating systems, and network protocols.

      Essentially everything not made by Microsoft was better in a technical sense, but for every user willing to spend ten minutes to learn how their software worked there were a hundred users who just wanted to click on the first thing they saw and then complain to the help desk when they had no clue what was going on.

      Microsoft raked in the cash, but it was the users in the end who were to blame.

    13. Re:Meet the 4 stages by Alex+Belits · · Score: 4, Insightful

      There would also be almost NO interoperability.

      Oh wow!

      Microsoft is the only company that can't release its standards BECAUSE THEY WERE NEVER DOCUMENTED IN THE FIRST PLACE.
      At worst days of Unix fragmentation, there was more interoperability between all Unices and Unix-like systems (yes, including HP-UX) than there was between Microsoft and Borland toolchains on Windows. For the above mentioned reason. And that was before Microsoft started to actively fight Unix.

      --
      Contrary to the popular belief, there indeed is no God.
  2. Not too surprising? by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 4, Informative

    This shouldn't surprise anyone too much. Ten years ago some people really thought that Linux was going to replace Windows on everyone's desktop, open source projects were going to kill Office, etc.

    Which never happened.

    The reality is that there's room for both open and closed source software in the world.

    1. Re:Not too surprising? by MightyMartian · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One should explain that to Microsoft, who still continues to make not-so-veiled patent threats against Linux.

      Microsoft is the enemy of open source, pure and simple.

      --
      The world's burning. Moped Jesus spotted on I50. Details at 11.
    2. Re:Not too surprising? by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your problem is that you seem to view each of Microsoft and open source as monolithic united entities with a single mind and vision.

      Sure, I'd fully expect MS to try to slap the shit out of, say, OpenOffice if it's infringing on one of their Office patents. Note that I'm not arguing for whether that would be right or wrong, only that you should expect it.

      But there's open source software that does a million other things that Microsoft isn't directly trying to sell a product for. And why wouldn't they, especially internally, be a fan of and use the hell out of any of that?

    3. Re:Not too surprising? by Monkeedude1212 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ten years ago some people really thought that Linux was going to replace Windows on everyone's desktop, open source projects were going to kill Office, etc.

      Which never happened.

      I've been noticing more companies are dropping the Bundled Office for a discounted price and using OpenOffice instead. Don't get me wrong, I agree with windows being unlikely to disappear. But I could see Office becoming a free product included with Windows in order to stay competitive with the Open Source Alternatives.

      And if by some magical cosmic occurence that everyone switches to Ubuntu overnight, I could even see Windows becoming free (as in beer) to stay afloat, while they pull something out of their hat to make enough money to sustain themselves.

    4. Re:Not too surprising? by HermMunster · · Score: 4, Informative

      There's a group of companies that contribute some of their patent portfolio to protect Linux. Attempts at squishing Linux with Microsoft's patent portfolio will only result in a nuclear meltdown in a patent war. Just don't live with the false impression that Linux can't defend itself. And remember, Microsoft is on the loosing end of most patent lawsuits.

      --
      You can lead a man with reason but you can't make him think.
    5. Re:Not too surprising? by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 4, Insightful

      It is inevitable that Windows and Office will fall by the way-side.

      Based on what, exactly?


      That's one of the major complaints about Microsoft. When those products go what else do they have? A patent war?

      When people stop using databases, what does Oracle really have?

      When people stop searching for things on the internet, what does Google have?

      At this point there's still no credible threat to Windows on the desktop or Office on the horizon, and anyone who says otherwise is either trying to sell you something or has adopted Open Source as a religion rather than a merely very good idea.

    6. Re:Not too surprising? by plover · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But there's open source software that does a million other things that Microsoft isn't directly trying to sell a product for. And why wouldn't they, especially internally, be a fan of and use the hell out of any of that?

      Because they make their living off of providing proprietary software, and to be more precise, they are living off of incremental improvements to existing proprietary software. And the open source model is gradually showing people that they don't have to pay $$$ for good quality software.

      What I think has happened is Microsoft sees the pace of the open source threat is making it less of a risk than they once thought. People still buy machines pre-loaded with Windows, and they pick up a copy of Office Home & Student edition for their kids to use in school. The price is low enough that most of them can afford it. And business licensing still rakes in truckloads of cash.

      Speaking of business, most are still loading up on Windows Server 2008, Microsoft SQL Server, IIS, Active Directory, etc., and the pace of change is not heading to Linux at an appreciable rate.

      On the other pan of the scale, it costs Microsoft a lot in terms of money and goodwill to do battle with people who just want to give away free software to poor kids in Africa. P.R.-wise that's an unwinnable battle. It's best to smile and nod, and pat the little ESR-wannabees on the head and say "that's a good boy, go out and play with your GNU friends, the grown-ups want to sell Mommy and Daddy some real software."

      If Ballmer is now B.F.F. with Open Source, you can bet that they've done the math and this works out better for them on the bottom line.

      --
      John
    7. Re:Not too surprising? by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Insightful

      People still buy machines pre-loaded with Windows

      In their defense, it's extremely difficult to buy many machines, especially laptops, without Windows. This is one thing that would be really nice to change.

    8. Re:Not too surprising? by h4rr4r · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Speaking of business, most are still loading up on Windows Server 2008, Microsoft SQL Server, IIS, Active Directory, etc., and the pace of change is not heading to Linux at an appreciable rate.

      Server 2008 is for MS only shops, SQL Server is an also-ran to Oracle, Postgres and MySQL, IIS is just a joke. Unless it is an MS product it does not go on IIS. We have far more linux boxes than MS ones, and most of those MS ones are VMs. Letting MS software touch metal is crazy.

    9. Re:Not too surprising? by Mongoose+Disciple · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Uh... you do know that Standard Oil was broken up by the government. The reason they don't exist has nothing to do with superior alternatives or market forces. Standard Oil is actually an excellent argument against your thesis because left to its own devices it would almost certainly still be ridiculously dominant.

      You say that no one wants to pay for incremental changes to Office or Windows, and yet people spend billions upon billions of dollars doing exactly that every year.

      In short, you're arguing that the market will be rational or behave the way you think it should, rather than looking at how the market actually has and continues to behave.

      Probably Office will be gone someday... but that day is not coming soon. Just like the day that we stop using so much oil is not coming soon. You don't even have to like Office or Microsoft to understand that -- you just need to deal with the world as it actually is.

  3. My question by schmidt349 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is what I want to know: Is Microsoft's new stance a sort of "this is the way the world is going, we'd better at least pretend to get with the program," or is it more like "we need to do a better job with PR of covering up our continuing efforts to break and absorb every platform that isn't ours?"

  4. It's a trap! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I see what you did there.

  5. Riiight. by vadim_t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I don't see how would this favor MS. For IBM, it made sense as IBM is a services company and works in their favor.

    For Microsoft, their business is in selling software, and everybody else is a competitor. In the case of Open Source, a very annoying competitor they can't get rid of easily.

    They can start by ending all the funny business with software patents. That would be a first step, but I doubt very much it'll happen. Much more likely that there's some kind of trap here.

    1. Re:Riiight. by LWATCDR · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As long as it runs on Windows they don't care.
      Google Docs is seen are more of a threat than OpenOffice ever was.
      PHP, Perl, Python, Ruby... They run on Windows so they are all good with that.
      Firefox? Better than Chrome and it runs on Windows. Plus they don't sell IE and Microsoft knows that it has lost the "standards" war when it comes to browsers.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:Riiight. by Reapman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Not troll, just, at least partially, wrong.

      Your vision of Linux is rather laughable, and reminds me of Linux fanboys that think of Windows as a Win95 box. Both OS's have progressed passed that point in history.

      I just spent a week of evenings fixing up two Windows XP comptuers because they were completely unusable. Windows isn't some holy "it just works" operating system.

      Another example, my mom is now running Ubuntu, at least temporarily. When I setup her computer I set it up with Dual Boot capabilities in case something happened to her Windows. Well it started slowing to a crawl, and I couldn't figure out why. I ran out of time to diagnose, so she's setup in Ubuntu and is doing what she did before just fine. I showed her how to get back into Windows if there's something she needs, and watched her do it to make sure how, but so far she hasn't felt the need.

      Another example is XBMC's Live CD, where I was able to get a fully functional Media Center PC by simply putting in a CD, everything just worked. Now install Windows 7 and their Media Center offering. It'll work, and it'll work great, but I'll already be done watching a couple episodes by then in XBMC.

      No, I don't go around installing Linux for my friends and family, Windows has real advantages over Linux (and vice versa). but to dismiss it without a second thought is doing yourself a diservice.

  6. They really DO love "open source" by Locke2005 · · Score: 5, Informative

    The just have a different definition of what "open source" means than you and I. "Open Source" to Microsoft means that they are free to incorporate other people's work into their software with any reciprocation or release of the modified code. Unfortunately many companies feel this way open source code.

    --
    I've abandoned my search for truth; now I'm just looking for some useful delusions.
    1. Re:They really DO love "open source" by OutSourcingIsTreason · · Score: 5, Informative

      That isn't my experience. Several years ago I worked at a software house that was acquired by Microsoft. The first thing they did was audit our source code to identify all the modules derived from open source. Before the sale could go through we had to rewrite those modules from scratch.

      --
      "Fascism should more properly be called corporatism because it is the merger of state and corporate power." -- Mussolini
  7. We Love Open Source by Nerdfest · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... it tastes like kittens.

  8. Fight to win, sue for peace when you can't by Infonaut · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Microsoft is the enemy of open source, pure and simple.

    I think that used to be the case, but Microsoft seems to have a more nuanced view now. They recognize that Linux is a strategic threat, but that doesn't mean that any and all open source projects are similarly dangerous to their core interests. They have far more than Linux to contend with these days, and they're finding allies in unlikely places.

    That said, Microsoft has flip-flopped so many times on open source it remains to be seen whether they truly understand that they've lost the ideological war over open source (and more importantly, free software).

    --
    Read the EFF's Fair Use FAQ
  9. How about OOXML? by VGR · · Score: 4, Insightful

    How nice of them. They apologized for calling Linux a cancer.

    Still waiting for an apology for the OOXML atrocity. In fact, it's going to take a lot more than a few contributions and nice words to make me put OOXML and its enormously dirty dealings in the past.

    --
    The Internet is full. Go away.
  10. Re:Meet the 6 stages by stephanruby · · Score: 4, Funny

    1. First they ignore you
    2. then they laugh at you,
    3. then they fight you,
    4. then you quote Gandhi
    5. ???
    6. Karma!

  11. MS loves Open Source, still hates Free Software by wowbagger · · Score: 4, Insightful

    MS Loves Open Source, which knows its place.

    MS Hates that uppity Free Software.

  12. Microsoft's new attack on Open Source ... by SickLittleMonkey · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... has really been to "embrace" it. (As usual!)

    Think about it like this:
    - Ms-PL (and 4 or so other licenses)
    - CodePlex
    - Free versions of Visual Studio

    Now developers can write open source for Windows & .NET with MS versions of everything the traditional open source world used to provide.
    Instead of developing with Java or gcc for other VMs or Linux!

    --
    main() {1;} // zen app